Clare Kirkpatrick

Bedtime help needed please. Have lost it this evening. Usually bedtimes here are fab lately but tonight I'm suddenly feeling resentful. Most of the children still want/need quite a lot of input when they go to bed. The later they are ready to retire, the harder that is for us to do. Spending 90 minutes with them helping them quieten down and settle starting at 7.30pm is one thing. Starting at 9, 10pm is quite another. Dh and I are getting exhausted. I know it's early days for us this time around, but after a good couple of weeks being genuinely joyful about these chilled bedtimes, I've just been yelling about it this evening. (Haven't yelled for weeks now - since we started unschooling) why now? Pmt? Just overtiredness? Any ideas of where to go next? 


Sent from Samsung Mobile

Sandra Dodd

-=- I know it's early days for us this time around,-=-

Please clarify. 

Is this your second time at trying to change your bedtime "rules" or something? Please clarify "this time around."

-=-why now? Pmt? Just overtiredness? -=-

Hungry?  angry?  lonely?  tired?
Jealous?  Did something trigger your childhood memories?
Are you getting sick?

Anyone can be stresssed and turn into his or her mom or dad.

-=-Any ideas of where to go next?-=--=-

You can give up on unschooling and enforce a bedtime by the clock, or you can learn (gradually) to find other ways to help each person find a soft, warm bed when he's ready to sleep (or after he's fallen asleep in your lap, or on the couch or the floor next to you).

There are other options like giving them up for adoption, but they're probably not what you want.

If it would help you to read more, here:

Sandra

Clare Kirkpatrick

-=-Please clarify. 

Is this your second time at trying to change your bedtime "rules" or something? Please clarify "this time around."-=-

Sorry. We tried unschooling for years but we really were only trying it then, I now realise. I was very ill with depression unbeknownst to us. Had a crisis two years ago. It was my rock bottom. Needed a lot of structure to heal so put that in place. Worked incredibly hard and am now a very different person. Rediscovered unschooling a few weeks ago and have been taking it slowly but surely and very joyfully since then. 

I've read your book (thank you, thank you! ) but maybe looking at the website again would be sensible. I'm not stopping unschooling - it's too fabulous 99% of the time :) and my kids are way too awesome to get adopted ;)

I think more breathing before reacting and more tag-teaming with my husband. He stood up for me (that's not the right words - weighed in with me?) when he should have stepped in and taken over - lesson learned. (He was wonderful later on :) ).

On more reflection, maybe I was angry with myself really for not engaging with them and taking it out on them. Need to remind myself to make the next moment more joyful.

Will re-read the links and be kinder to myself as well as to my kids.


Sent from Samsung Mobile



-------- Original message --------
From: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
Date: 13/12/2013 22:36 (GMT+00:00)
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Bedtime blow out :(


 

-=- I know it's early days for us this time around,-=-


Please clarify. 

Is this your second time at trying to change your bedtime "rules" or something? Please clarify "this time around."

-=-why now? Pmt? Just overtiredness? -=-

Hungry?  angry?  lonely?  tired?
Jealous?  Did something trigger your childhood memories?
Are you getting sick?

Anyone can be stresssed and turn into his or her mom or dad.

-=-Any ideas of where to go next?-=--=-

You can give up on unschooling and enforce a bedtime by the clock, or you can learn (gradually) to find other ways to help each person find a soft, warm bed when he's ready to sleep (or after he's fallen asleep in your lap, or on the couch or the floor next to you).

There are other options like giving them up for adoption, but they're probably not what you want.

If it would help you to read more, here:

Sandra

Meredith Novak

Some nights you're going to be tired before your kids are. You'll be grumpy and unsympathetic. That's normal. And having had a taste of how that can go wrong, now you have a chance to make some more thoughtful plans for the future so that Next time you're tired or hormonal or otherwise grumpy and out of sorts you're less likely to resort to yelling. What might have helped? Could you have put in a movie and said: I'm wiped out? If the kids are tending to go to bed later, can you do some things earlier in the evening so that by the time you're getting tired you don't have to think too much? 

It helps me, whenever possible, to step back and see how a lot of parenting issues are really logistical puzzles - with the catch being that some of the resources you're trying to manage are Your Own internal resources. One of the things I learned as an unschooling parent was to pay attention to my own resources and really notice when I was "off" so that I could remind myself to slow down and lower my expectations for myself. Sometimes that meant making sure to eat a little more often, or look for chances to sit down and rest more, or Engineer chances to sit down and rest more, or to flat out tell my partner and kids: I'm whooped - somebody give me a hand, please? And having seen me "whooped" and not ask for help, my partner and kids have a vested interest in helping me out. In that sense, have a night where you come unglued and yell a little isn't a disaster -it's a chance for everyone to learn a little and a point of reference for next time. 

---meredith

Karen

>>>>>Dh and I are getting exhausted.<<<<<

After the age of 7 or so, Ethan started staying awake later and later in the evenings. Doug and I were very resistant to this change in the beginning, because it meant that we didn't have time to just relax together for the last remaining hour or two of the day. Doug and I have always been night owls ourselves, rarely going to bed before midnight. It was not really a surprise that Ethan wanted to stay up too. He's always wanted to be a part of most things we do.

Doug and I began to shift our thinking from only having our time together in the evenings, to being open to opportunities to have time together in the mornings, or in the middle of the night, or when Ethan was watching a movie or playing with a friend. I made a point to touch Doug more - rub his back, hold his hand, smile, tell him I love him. Every little opportunity to connect meant we were waiting less for that one specially designated time.

Nowadays Ethan (11 years) stays up at least as late as we do. We have a loose routine. Whoever wants to, showers. We all put on pjs. Doug usually makes himself and me a sleepy tea. Ethan often has oatmeal. He used to have peas and carrots - his request. Lately he's been asking for miso soup. He says he rests easier with a full tummy. I usually read aloud for a bit in bed in our softly lit room. Then we chat for a short while, brush teeth and Ethan heads over to his room. Doug and I then usually go to sleep.

Often, in his room, Ethan will read to himself. He loves comics and facts books. Sometimes he will finish up a game or YouTube video, but not one that gets him too excited because it's too noisy for Doug and I. Not very often any more, but still occasionally, Ethan will ask me to come and sleep with him. I do, until he falls asleep. Then I head back to my own bed. Sometimes I stay the whole night, especially if he isn't feeling well.

That's what works for us today. At some point in the not-too-distant future this will shift again, I'm sure. Find what works for you all. Change little things -not everything all at once. See how people respond. Little by little, move toward a easier conclusion to the day.

What has exhausted me (and Doug) most in the past (and sometimes still) is having rigid expectations for how events of the day or evening *should* progress. When I can let things happen more naturally (taking into consideration real limits), I find, even when tired, I'm softer. Doug is too.

Sandra Dodd

-=Sorry. We tried unschooling for years but we really were only trying it then-==-

Right.  Sorry I can't keep everyone straight, but also new people join every day or two.

If the kids don't trust that you will be changing longterm, then they will surely be wilder than if they trusted that this was really the deal.  If they think it's a limited-time offer, they'll press farther and further than if they felt calmly confident.  

From their point of view, it's back again (temporarily again), I'm guessing.  

So though it's frustrating and unfortunate, it's reality.  

Maybe just tell them you need them to help you figure out a way to get the house quiet earlier because you're too tired, and they can only stay up if your'e up, and if you need to go to sleep, they need to go to sleep.

Real reasons to get quiet and go to sleep are not arbitrary reasons. Just because there can be some late nights doesn't mean there have to be ALL late nights.    Had you started from birth with them that way, or if you had moved steadily and gradually toward it and not taken it back, you  might not have the ruckus and frustration.

I think it can settle out peacefully, at some point, if you look at WHY it's worth staying up sometimes, and why it's important to go to bed sometimes.

Sandra

Nancy

I tend to get aggravated if Im attempting to get my kids asleep before they are really ready. If I keep insisting that they get into bed, be quiet, stop wiggling, etc etc etc all it does it set up an adversarial situation. They resist, I get frustrated, I lose my temper, they feel unhappy-what is the point? They dont actually fall asleep any faster than if we had just done other things during all time that I was trying to make them go to sleep.

I personally would not spend 90 minutes trying to get my kids to go to bed. I think if it takes that long, they arent ready! 

Of course, there are things that you can do that might make them more ready-softer music, a calm movie or show, breastfeeding (if they still nurse), softer lighting- but I wouldnt just go and impose these things if there was a lot of resistance, either.

It also depends on WHY you want them in bed. for instance, if we have to get up early the next day, I try to plan something tiring for the afternoon :) Kids who have exercised or spent a while outside can fall asleep better sometimes :) If it was because I wanted time with my husband, well, Id find other time to be with him. My kids would have to be asleep by 7 and I dont see that happening anytime soon.

My kids go to bed around midnight. The last couple hours before bed they are usually watching shows or playing minecraft, they usually have a late snack (or meal) its generally pretty calm, my husband goes to bed around 9 so we are quiet so he can sleep. at midnight I ask them to wrap up what they are doing, and they come along to bed. I lay down with them until they are asleep (both kids sleep in the same room) and then I get up and go to my room or do some stuff online or read for an hour or two. we get up in the morning around 9:30, or 10, or later, if we can. 

If you are looking for things to calm you down, perhaps a cup of hot chocolate. maybe an inspirational book you can pick up and read for 15 minutes. maybe look thru an old photo album or scrapbook and remember good memories and think happy thoughts about your family and your future. 


Nancy

Zibby age 9
Henry age 6







Sandra Dodd

-=-I tend to get aggravated if Im attempting to get my kids asleep before they are really ready. If I keep insisting that they get into bed, be quiet, stop wiggling, etc etc etc all it does it set up an adversarial situation. They resist, I get frustrated, I lose my temper, they feel unhappy-what is the point? They dont actually fall asleep any faster than if we had just done other things during all time that I was trying to make them go to sleep.-=-

Yes.
I documented a time when I tried to demand still, quiet, sleep.
Marty was smarter than I was:

Clare Kirkpatrick

It takes a long time because there are four of them. Some need cuddling to get to sleep, others want a cuddle and a chat, there's reading stories - some want picture books, others chapter books. By the time we've settled them all, something's woken the youngest and she gets a second wind. By 90 minutes, I mean time invested in slowing down and is led by a tentative 'conversation' of us watching them and their tiredness and our own as well.

Spending time together as a couple we are very creative with - that is not the issue. My husband who works outside of the home getting enough sleep is the biggest problem and our youngest getting overtired over a period of late nights (she wakes naturally).


Sent from Samsung Mobile



-------- Original message --------
From: Nancy <nancymachaj@...>
Date: 14/12/2013 20:13 (GMT+00:00)
To: [email protected]
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Bedtime blow out :(


 

I tend to get aggravated if Im attempting to get my kids asleep before they are really ready. If I keep insisting that they get into bed, be quiet, stop wiggling, etc etc etc all it does it set up an adversarial situation. They resist, I get frustrated, I lose my temper, they feel unhappy-what is the point? They dont actually fall asleep any faster than if we had just done other things during all time that I was trying to make them go to sleep.


I personally would not spend 90 minutes trying to get my kids to go to bed. I think if it takes that long, they arent ready! 

Of course, there are things that you can do that might make them more ready-softer music, a calm movie or show, breastfeeding (if they still nurse), softer lighting- but I wouldnt just go and impose these things if there was a lot of resistance, either.

It also depends on WHY you want them in bed. for instance, if we have to get up early the next day, I try to plan something tiring for the afternoon :) Kids who have exercised or spent a while outside can fall asleep better sometimes :) If it was because I wanted time with my husband, well, Id find other time to be with him. My kids would have to be asleep by 7 and I dont see that happening anytime soon.

My kids go to bed around midnight. The last couple hours before bed they are usually watching shows or playing minecraft, they usually have a late snack (or meal) its generally pretty calm, my husband goes to bed around 9 so we are quiet so he can sleep. at midnight I ask them to wrap up what they are doing, and they come along to bed. I lay down with them until they are asleep (both kids sleep in the same room) and then I get up and go to my room or do some stuff online or read for an hour or two. we get up in the morning around 9:30, or 10, or later, if we can. 

If you are looking for things to calm you down, perhaps a cup of hot chocolate. maybe an inspirational book you can pick up and read for 15 minutes. maybe look thru an old photo album or scrapbook and remember good memories and think happy thoughts about your family and your future. 


Nancy

Zibby age 9
Henry age 6







Sandra Dodd

-=-and our youngest getting overtired -=-

"Overtied" is an odd term. I've heard it, but always of children, not of adults.

Sandra Dodd

Typo; very sorry.  I meant "overtired" and have fixed it below.




-=-and our youngest getting overtired -=-


"Overtired" is an odd term. I've heard it, but always of children, not of adults.

Ali Zeljo

=-and our youngest getting overtired -=-


"Overtied" is an odd term. I've heard it, but always of children, not of adults

I think I know what you mean.  My youngest son gets tired at 6:30.  It's so early for everyone else in the family.  Often I can take him upstairs and nurse him to sleep.  He sleeps 12 hours like that with nursing in the middle a few times but not waking.  

However, if our life is busy and we have friends over, or something gets in the way of going to sleep when he is tired, he pushes past the tired, gets wild and has a lot of trouble falling asleep.  To me that is overtired.  

I get it too!  I'm tired at 9 most nights, but if I need to stay up past 10 to be with the night owls in our house, I'll catch a second wind and then I have so much trouble falling asleep!  I can handle it every now and then, but too often and I get really worn out!  Especially because I can't sleep in with a 6:30am waker!  I'm lucky that my husband is more of a night owl, so he makes it possible for me to crash early with our youngest.

  Our 10 & 13 year olds have decided to stay up past all of us and go to sleep on their own.  They have a lot of fun on Skype playing Minecraft late at night.  Our 10 year old climbs into our double-king floor bed when he's ready.  

Our 13 year old falls asleep in his room with the lights on after laying in bed watching YouTube videos until he crashes. I used to read him to sleep every night!  And that was nice time we had together- I miss it!  Maybe I'm telling you this because it might help you to cherish the time when they want/need you to put them to sleep.  It goes away!  

Warmly,
Ali

On Dec 14, 2013, at 8:15 PM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:

 

-.


Clare Kirkpatrick

I get overtired. My husband too and loads of other adults I know. I get an odd headache when I get overtired, and snappy. I say overtired as opposed to the general all round mum of four tiredness or normal end-of-the-day tiredness. That thing when you're waking tired. Maybe it's used more in the UK. Whatever you call it, I mean her being super tearful and losing her temper much more than usual.


Sent from Samsung Mobile



-------- Original message --------
From: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
Date: 15/12/2013 03:15 (GMT+00:00)
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Bedtime blow out :(


 

-=-and our youngest getting overtired -=-


"Overtied" is an odd term. I've heard it, but always of children, not of adults.

Clare Kirkpatrick

-=- Maybe I'm telling you this because it might help you to cherish the time when they want/need you to put them to sleep.  It goes away!  -=-

We really do cherish it :) We enjoy nearly all evenings with them. It's just that people are getting tired because being strict and mean takes less time. Not that I ever want to go back there! 

Also, one thing I really struggle with is being present with one child while another wants you and is waiting for their 'turn' with you. 


Sent from Samsung Mobile



-------- Original message --------
From: Ali Zeljo <azeljo@...>
Date: 15/12/2013 05:15 (GMT+00:00)
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Bedtime blow out :(


 

=-and our youngest getting overtired -=-


"Overtied" is an odd term. I've heard it, but always of children, not of adults

I think I know what you mean.  My youngest son gets tired at 6:30.  It's so early for everyone else in the family.  Often I can take him upstairs and nurse him to sleep.  He sleeps 12 hours like that with nursing in the middle a few times but not waking.  

However, if our life is busy and we have friends over, or something gets in the way of going to sleep when he is tired, he pushes past the tired, gets wild and has a lot of trouble falling asleep.  To me that is overtired.  

I get it too!  I'm tired at 9 most nights, but if I need to stay up past 10 to be with the night owls in our house, I'll catch a second wind and then I have so much trouble falling asleep!  I can handle it every now and then, but too often and I get really worn out!  Especially because I can't sleep in with a 6:30am waker!  I'm lucky that my husband is more of a night owl, so he makes it possible for me to crash early with our youngest.

  Our 10 & 13 year olds have decided to stay up past all of us and go to sleep on their own.  They have a lot of fun on Skype playing Minecraft late at night.  Our 10 year old climbs into our double-king floor bed when he's ready.  

Our 13 year old falls asleep in his room with the lights on after laying in bed watching YouTube videos until he crashes. I used to read him to sleep every night!  And that was nice time we had together- I miss it!  Maybe I'm telling you this because it might help you to cherish the time when they want/need you to put them to sleep.  It goes away!  

Warmly,
Ali

On Dec 14, 2013, at 8:15 PM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:

 

-.


Joyce Fetteroll

*** "Overtired" is an odd term. I've heard it, but always of children, not of adults. *** That's because overtired adults don't create problems for others! ;-) Just for themselves. When I'm overtired, it's hard to fall asleep even though I'm exhausted. For kids it probably fills them with a whole stew of emotions, especially if the parents are getting cranky too from being tired.



On Dec 15, 2013, at 12:15 AM, Ali Zeljo <azeljo@...> wrote:


=-and our youngest getting overtired -=-


"Overtied" is an odd term. I've heard it, but always of children, not of adults

I think I know what you mean.  My youngest son gets tired at 6:30.  It's so early for everyone else in the family.  Often I can take him upstairs and nurse him to sleep.  He sleeps 12 hours like that with nursing in the middle a few times but not waking.  

However, if our life is busy and we have friends over, or something gets in the way of going to sleep when he is tired, he pushes past the tired, gets wild and has a lot of trouble falling asleep.  To me that is overtired.  

I get it too!  I'm tired at 9 most nights, but if I need to stay up past 10 to be with the night owls in our house, I'll catch a second wind and then I have so much trouble falling asleep!  I can handle it every now and then, but too often and I get really worn out!  Especially because I can't sleep in with a 6:30am waker!  I'm lucky that my husband is more of a night owl, so he makes it possible for me to crash early with our youngest.

  Our 10 & 13 year olds have decided to stay up past all of us and go to sleep on their own.  They have a lot of fun on Skype playing Minecraft late at night.  Our 10 year old climbs into our double-king floor bed when he's ready.  

Our 13 year old falls asleep in his room with the lights on after laying in bed watching YouTube videos until he crashes. I used to read him to sleep every night!  And that was nice time we had together- I miss it!  Maybe I'm telling you this because it might help you to cherish the time when they want/need you to put them to sleep.  It goes away!  

Warmly,
Ali

On Dec 14, 2013, at 8:15 PM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:

 

-.





Sandra Dodd

-=-I get it too! I'm tired at 9 most nights, but if I need to stay up past 10 to be with the night owls in our house, I'll catch a second wind and then I have so much trouble falling asleep! -=-

If it's "a second wind" for adults, then it should be for children, too.
"Overtired" can't be something children have, get, are guilty of, but that adults don't experience.

I think there is sleepy, and there is not sleepy. "Second wind" means "I was sleepy, but now I'm awake again."

If that's what's meant by "overtired," then maybe the parents should have noticed and taken advantage of the child's sleepiness when it was there. Or maybe they should try not to see being awake as being bad, or being "overtired."

Sandra

Clare Kirkpatrick

-=-If that's what's meant by "overtired," then maybe the parents should have noticed and taken advantage of the child's sleepiness when it was there. Or maybe they should try not to see being awake as being bad, or being "overtired."-=-

I don't see being overtired as bad, I see it as tiring and hard work both for the overtired person and the people supporting them.

We do catch them when they're sleepy but that often coincides with other siblings having a squabble or choosing to watch something exciting or needing a cuddle themselves and then the moment is lost and going to sleep time gets later and later and said child gets, over time, tireder and tireder. Despite blackout curtains, quiet mornings and natural wakings being respected here, unless there's a specific reason, all my children wake at a similar time every morning (I mean every morning is the same for each child - their own times differ fromeach other's).

Sent from Samsung Mobile



-------- Original message --------
From: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
Date: 15/12/2013 17:01 (GMT+00:00)
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Bedtime blow out :(


 

-=-I get it too! I'm tired at 9 most nights, but if I need to stay up past 10 to be with the night owls in our house, I'll catch a second wind and then I have so much trouble falling asleep! -=-

If it's "a second wind" for adults, then it should be for children, too.
"Overtired" can't be something children have, get, are guilty of, but that adults don't experience.

I think there is sleepy, and there is not sleepy. "Second wind" means "I was sleepy, but now I'm awake again."

If that's what's meant by "overtired," then maybe the parents should have noticed and taken advantage of the child's sleepiness when it was there. Or maybe they should try not to see being awake as being bad, or being "overtired."

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

-=-When I'm overtired, it's hard to fall asleep even though I'm exhausted. For kids it probably fills them with a whole stew of emotions, especially if the parents are getting cranky too from being tired.-=-

Why not call it "exhausted"?
When I'm that tired, I say "I'm really tired." 

I'm questioning a special term for children, as though it is a condition to be addressed.  As though it's something special that happens to children.

Sandra

Heather Stafford

Both kids and adults can be overtired, but I think it tends to look pretty different, which is maybe why adults aren't accused of being overtired as often. In our house at least, when the kids are overtired they start to have a lot of trouble controlling their emotions. They might have an enormous fit because they can't find their favorite pj's, or start crying hysterically because her sister smirked at her, both things that they would have been able to handle in less emotional ways at other times of the day. Or they may start taunting each other, at first verbally, but it almost always turns violent when they are overtired. But mostly, overtired in our house looks like kids running wildly through the house, laughing hysterically while they are knocking things off of tables and counters and destroying other people's projects, as well as bumping into and pushing over their sisters. Some of the damage is accidental and some is done intentionally,
although I don't think in the moment they really meant to hurt each other or us. Overtired conflicts pretty much always end in tears, usually from emotional causes but sometimes also physical causes.

When my husband or I am feeling overtired we may get grumpy and a whole lot less patient. We are more likely to snap at someone, inflicting emotional pain, but we never have big temper tantrums or cry unexpectedly over tiny slights. We never run through the house looking like we are out of control of our physical bodies, and we never hit anyone, but we are just as overtired. I suppose it's a difference in scale. If I were to act like my children do when they are overtired when I am feeling overtired, I wouldn't be accused of being overtired but of acting immaturely (and I'd probably be guilty of some child abuse). I suppose that is a double standard. Overtired adults tend to be called grumpy or maybe the opposite being slap-happy (where you find everything very funny, but that typically only happens when I'm up with my husband or good friends really late at night). But overtired adults don't act like overtired children, so maybe there is a good
reason to have a special word to describe what's happening with children.

When my kids are acting in ways that I would describe as overtired, my husband and I do what we can to help them calm back down. This is generally something that they are unable to do at that moment for themselves, but that they desperately need from us. I think the whole experience is probably a bit frightening for them, so they usually need/want lots more snuggling and comfort from us when they are overtired and have lost control of themselves.


--------------------------------------------
On Sun, 12/15/13, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:

Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Bedtime blow out :(
To: [email protected]
Date: Sunday, December 15, 2013, 10:01 AM
















 









-=-I get it too! I'm tired at 9 most nights,
but if I need to stay up past 10 to be with the night owls
in our house, I'll catch a second wind and then I have
so much trouble falling asleep! -=-



If it's "a second wind" for adults, then it
should be for children, too.

"Overtired" can't be something children have,
get, are guilty of, but that adults don't experience.



I think there is sleepy, and there is not sleepy.
"Second wind" means "I was sleepy, but now
I'm awake again."



If that's what's meant by "overtired,"
then maybe the parents should have noticed and taken
advantage of the child's sleepiness when it was there.
Or maybe they should try not to see being awake as being
bad, or being "overtired."



Sandra

Ali Zeljo

"Also, one thing I really struggle with is being present with one child while another wants you and is waiting for their 'turn' with you"

Yes this is a big challenge for us too. I typically go to each child who has to wait and make a plan about what they might do- play games or watch video on iPod are the most popular things right now for us. I tell them if they get to the point they can't wait anymore to quietly snuggle up to my other side so the one who is almost asleep isn't bothered. The planning ahead usually helps. I also try to separate the waiting kids so they don't get into arguments while I'm occupied.

Ali

Sandra Dodd

-=-Also, one thing I really struggle with...-=-

"Struggle" sets it as an obstacle, or an opponent.  

-=-Also, one thing I really struggle with is being present with one child while another wants you and is waiting for their 'turn' with you. 
-=-

You can be with more than one child at a time.  You can be holding hands and sqeezing, with one, or holding one, or stroking the hair of one, while listening to another.

Pam Sorooshian had a way to communicate sweetly with a child by touch, handholding, while Pam was on the phone.  She did a lot of phone assistance of homeschoolers years back (maybe still).


Sandra

Clare Kirkpatrick


-=-I'm questioning a special term for children, as though it is a condition to be addressed.  As though it's something special that happens to children.-=-

It's not a term only applied to children though. I concede it may be in the US. But I've heard and used it myself to refer to adults too. I'm struggling to work out why there's such an issue with the semantics. Could you maybe just re-read my messages and assume I'm using a term you would deem appropriate for adults and children alike? I really want to figure this problem
Out. 
Sent from Samsung Mobile



-------- Original message --------
From: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
Date: 15/12/2013 18:32 (GMT+00:00)
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Bedtime blow out :(


 

-=-When I'm overtired, it's hard to fall asleep even though I'm exhausted. For kids it probably fills them with a whole stew of emotions, especially if the parents are getting cranky too from being tired.-=-


Why not call it "exhausted"?
When I'm that tired, I say "I'm really tired." 

I'm questioning a special term for children, as though it is a condition to be addressed.  As though it's something special that happens to children.

Sandra

Clare Kirkpatrick

With four children all parented gently, I already do all that. I can't yet see how I can be in two beds at once or meeting two children's desire to have me all to themselves only. Special conversations are tricky when you are also trying to keep siblings happy and/or trying to help siblings get to sleep or read to them or help them stop fighting. I don't believe that this was never an issue for you, Sandra - how did you manage it? And if it was never an issue, what were you doing to achieve such a state? 


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-------- Original message --------
From: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
Date: 15/12/2013 18:39 (GMT+00:00)
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Bedtime blow out :(


 

-=-Also, one thing I really struggle with...-=-


"Struggle" sets it as an obstacle, or an opponent.  

-=-Also, one thing I really struggle with is being present with one child while another wants you and is waiting for their 'turn' with you. 
-=-

You can be with more than one child at a time.  You can be holding hands and sqeezing, with one, or holding one, or stroking the hair of one, while listening to another.

Pam Sorooshian had a way to communicate sweetly with a child by touch, handholding, while Pam was on the phone.  She did a lot of phone assistance of homeschoolers years back (maybe still).


Sandra

Colleen

****I don't see being overtired as bad, I see it as tiring and hard work both for the overtired person and the people supporting them.****

Overtired, overstimulated, overexcited, overwhelmed - they all have a bit of a negative slant to them.  If I'm overtired, I should have gone to sleep earlier - if I'm overexcited I should calm down.  And so forth.  

The "over" has an implication of gone-too-far (overinflated tires, for another example) and also an implication that the situation is a problem that needs fixing, and is perhaps your Fault because you didn't realize you needed to rest, eat, do something else, etc. before you found yourself in a situation of Over-whatever.   

Personally, I'd rather not be over-anything - I'd like to simply be what I am, and deal with that.  Last night I was quite ready for bed on the early side, but my 10 year old really wanted to watch a show with me that wasn't going to be done til midnight.  So we turned down the lights, loaded up the wood stove, grabbed a bunch of pillows and blankets, and drifted between watching and snoozing.  By the time it was midnight, we both agreed that we'd have liked if the show had ended by 10 as we were so sleepy we weren't sure we wanted to even walk upstairs to our rooms - but I don't think we were overtired - we were simply really, really tired and ready for bed.  And today I am really, really happy that we didn't have anywhere to be, so we could sleep in after our late night and then spend the day playing in the newly fallen snow :-)

Colleen 

Clare Kirkpatrick

So what about the child who is too young to do that (my oldest all do) and too interested in all the things she'd rather be doing to go to sleep without help? And when you try and help her, in collaboration with her, she or the parent gets distracted by a sibling and she gets lively again and the next time she's ready for sleep it's much later yet she still wakes at the same time the next morning and after a few nights like that finds herself tearful and short tempered and finds it hard to make decisions and too angry and exhausted to listen to her parents about getting more sleep? 

I am desperate not to be a new unschooler who gets frustrated with the lacking in the help on here, because I really believe in unschooling. I'm already seeing huge benefits and have read so many wonderful, truly helpful discussions here but I really must be missing something in this discussion and I can't figure out what it is. Maybe no one wants to admit they can't help on this one and I'll just have to figure it out myself. I hope that isn't the case but it's fine if it is. If that is the case, however, why not say so instead of focusing on one word that took up less space than 'so tired she us crying a lot more than usual and is more short tempered' and which I perhaps naively assumed would be understood that way.


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-------- Original message --------
From: Colleen <3potatoes@...>
Date: 15/12/2013 19:33 (GMT+00:00)
To: AlwaysLearning <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Bedtime blow out :(


 

****I don't see being overtired as bad, I see it as tiring and hard work both for the overtired person and the people supporting them.****

Overtired, overstimulated, overexcited, overwhelmed - they all have a bit of a negative slant to them.  If I'm overtired, I should have gone to sleep earlier - if I'm overexcited I should calm down.  And so forth.  

The "over" has an implication of gone-too-far (overinflated tires, for another example) and also an implication that the situation is a problem that needs fixing, and is perhaps your Fault because you didn't realize you needed to rest, eat, do something else, etc. before you found yourself in a situation of Over-whatever.   

Personally, I'd rather not be over-anything - I'd like to simply be what I am, and deal with that.  Last night I was quite ready for bed on the early side, but my 10 year old really wanted to watch a show with me that wasn't going to be done til midnight.  So we turned down the lights, loaded up the wood stove, grabbed a bunch of pillows and blankets, and drifted between watching and snoozing.  By the time it was midnight, we both agreed that we'd have liked if the show had ended by 10 as we were so sleepy we weren't sure we wanted to even walk upstairs to our rooms - but I don't think we were overtired - we were simply really, really tired and ready for bed.  And today I am really, really happy that we didn't have anywhere to be, so we could sleep in after our late night and then spend the day playing in the newly fallen snow :-)

Colleen 

Sandra Dodd

-=-If I were to act like my children do when they are overtired when I am feeling overtired, I wouldn't be accused of being overtired but of acting immaturely-=-

Then it's the same thing, but they're children.

I believe (strongly, and for good reasons born of experience with similar terms) that any parent willing to stop defending the term long enough to consider NOT using that term, and not even thinking that word, will benefit.  That parent (even if only one here changes) will have a better relationship with that child, and a better chance of seeing more clearly what's going on at the housee and why.

-=-But overtired adults don't act like overtired children, so maybe there is a good
reason to have a special word to describe what's happening with children.-=-

Will anything with "a good reason" be defended here?  

There are good reasons for kids to go to school.
There are good reasons for children to be made to sit at the table quietly while the whole family eats (or not) the same food.
There are good reasons for spanking.

"Good reason" means it makes sense to someone, and that it can be defended.

I'm trying to show good reason for dropping that term, along with "bratty," "spoiled" and other terms that are judgmental of children without being helpful, and that put a divider between that child and his or her parents and siblings, and that are used for a good reason by many people.

This whole topic started with a mom stating that she blew up.  She was tired, frustrated, maybe exhausted.  Maybe she would have done well to have had her favorite pajamas easily available, warm from the dryer, provided by someone else.  Maybe the house was too bright. Maybe she was distracted and overwhelmed by several things beyond her control.  That doesn't mean she's immature, or overtired.  

Learning to breathe and calm ourselves and make better decisions with the good of more than one person in mind is a skill that will make unschooling and parenting and life all better.  And if children see the parents doing that, consistently, it becomes easier for the children to do it too.


-=-But overtired adults don't act like overtired children, so maybe there is a good
reason to have a special word to describe what's happening with children.-=-

Hungry children don't act like hungry adults, if they're too young to cook or drive to a restaurant.
Frightened children don't act like frightened adults, generally.

Unschooled children should have an adult partner, maybe two, to help them when they need help.

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

-=-I typically go to each child who has to wait and make a plan about what they might do-=-

-=-The planning ahead usually helps. -=-

AH!  I didn't know anyone was NOT planning ahead.  Planning ahead usually helps.  Wee all know right now that there will be a bedtime every night next week.  :-)  Planning ahead is awesome.   

Are there bathtub toys or plans?  Is there music that can be played in the bathtub, to keep a kid happily in there longer?  Holly used to listen to a certain Barney CD when she was 7, 8 years old, and stay in the bathtub until it was over, so I made sure there were clean things to play with in there, and towels she liked right at hand.

If beds are made (or at least well equipped) and there's water, tissues, the right stuffed animals, way in advance, that makes the bed more alluring, and not a chore or a frustration.

If lights are lower at night than earlier in the day, that can help.  

If a child likes to have his back scratched, or rubbed, putting lotion or oil that smells like lavendar can be quieting.  We had a Juniper oil compound that I would put on kids' feet some nights, if they were extra tired.  I would ask if they wanted me to put oil on their feet, and I would do it with lights low, at their bedside, and maybe put socks on them after.  They didn't want to walk around with the oil on their feet anyway, so it was like a marker that they were in the bed after that.  I don't remember anyone every wanting to get up after that.  It was warming, soothing, and smelled like sleep, because they associated it with that care and safety.  Marty liked that, especially.  

Marty was a sleepwalker and would sometimes walk in a bit of a panic, like he was having a bad dream.  He never left the house, but he walked several rooms away, and one night was up against a door still trying to walk.  Someone would lead him back and sit by him, hold his hand, and he never remembered.

Plan now for the next few nights.  They don't need to all be the same.  It's an unschooling issue to consider not having an arbitrary, by-the-clock bedtime, but for what might be soothing and lulling, those ideas are probably all over the place, in books and on websites.  

Rocking chairs, lying down on a couch with a head on a parent's lap, leaning against a parent—those have worked for centuries.

Sandra

Clare Kirkpatrick

-=-Plan now for the next few nights.  They don't need to all be the same.  It's an unschooling issue to consider not having an arbitrary, by-the-clock bedtime, but for what might be soothing and lulling, those ideas are probably all over the place, in books and on websites. -=-

Yes, yes, thank you! We do try to plan ahead but sometimes get a little inflexible when we have a plan - something to work on for dh and I. And our ideas bank had run a little dry - you've refreshed it somewhat. Thank you! :)


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Sandra Dodd

I went to google.co.uk to see if "overtired" is used of adults as well as children in the UK.

Maybe a bit more, but it's still not a super-common term. Here were the related searches:

overtired symptoms
overtired baby
too much sleep
fatigue
inertia
overtired newborn
overtired baby symptoms
overtired baby keeps waking up

Still seems to be focusing on negativity.

If it's not something you would say to a visiting friend ("Oh, you're just overtired") then it's probably not a good thing to say to a child.

-=- I'm struggling to work out why there's such an issue with the semantics-=-

Because people are defending it. :-)

-=- Could you maybe just re-read my messages and assume I'm using a term you would deem appropriate for adults and children alike? -=-

I could, but that wouldn't be a good use of my volunteer time and energy.

I think it would be more helpful to you and to however many hundred people might read this topic, if you could re-read my messages and assume that I had a reason for spending that time trying to point out why that term, and the thinking behind it, could be a problem for someone wanting to understand unschooling better.

-=-I really want to figure this problem out. -=-

Don't see it as a problem.

Read a little (here, at the links maybe), try a little (try different things you've read), wait a while (writing over and over isn't giving yourself time to let ideas enter) and watch (does changing something within yourself make a difference in the situation?)

http://sandradodd.com/semantics

-=-Could you maybe just re-read-=-

I left the "just" out when I quoted back above, because "just" is dismissive.

-=-How amazing there was another unschooler around the corner I didn't know about-=-

Her child isn't yet three, so that's probably why. :-) She's a proto-unschooler.

-=-Natarsha has also offered to have you for a night so I guess it's up to you if you want to move around. -=-

It's probably better not to try to stay three places in four nights. Could we maybe plan to have a meal at her house or something like that, so there's time to sit and be casual and I can see her place? I have no idea of the size, distance and logistics, so if that's not practical, that's okay.

As she has offered, maybe doing something toward her house, in her house, would be cool, if I'm staying at yours.

Sandra

Karen

>>>>Maybe no one wants to admit they can't help on this one and I'll just have to figure it out myself.<<<<<

I think there are two things are happening here. One is that you are not seeing that people are very sincerely, and very generously trying to help you shift your thinking so that you will be able to more clearly and peacefully address any difficulties that might come up today and in the future.

And, two, that no matter what is said here, you will always need to figure out what works best for your family yourself. People here cannot tell you what to do to make things easier. They can only share insight on what will help anyone navigate a successful unschooling life.

>>>>>focusing on one word that took up less space than 'so tired she us crying a lot more than usual and is more short tempered'<<<<<

The words we choose matter. You chose over-tired. Let's talk about bananas.

I have some bananas hanging in a basket that we have neglected to eat. They are beyond spotty. They are turning black. If I call them over-ripe, I am, in essence, saying that they are potentially ruined. There is little to nothing I can do with them. If I call them really, really ripe, I can think about all of the things I can make with really ripe bananas.

The bananas themselves are not any different in either description I could choose to use. But the way *I* address the issue of the state of the bananas will be very different. In one instance I will likely toss the bananas out. In the other, I might make some delicious tasting banana bread or a wonderfully rich and delicious smoothy.

You might initially think this is a very silly comparison, but stop for a day or two and think about it. Please, do. The more I have learned to generously look at and describe in words any situation involving my son, the more possibilities have been opened to me for solving his, or my, or our challenges. Don't use words that lead to dead ends. Practice finding ones that open up many possibilities. It really helps.