School in the cloud
<lalougor@...>
I have been listening to a lot of TED talks lately about education. Sugata Mitra and Sir Ken Robinson are two more recent ones. I love the articles and talks buy Sugata Mitra and some of his ideas. He is the guy who put the computers around rural areas in India and talks about how kids can teach themselves and each other just about anything if given the tools to do it and time. I added the link to one of the talks below.
Anyway, one of the things I he mentions often is how kids learn from each other and it made me start thinking about the situations my kids are in from day to day. I do see them learning from their friends about the games they play and other things they do ( primarily on the computer) they Skype with friends often too. But as a homeschoolers, with several of my kids being very much more comfortable at home, I wonder if I don't put enough effort into having other children over or getting out among other kids more. We do some of course but I wonder if I shouldn't make it more of a priority.
I'd love to hear other people's thoughts on Sugata Mitras ideas and how they tie in to unschooling.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=y3jYVe1RGaU
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
I think it is great that Sugar Mitra is doing what he is doing,
I think it does NOT mater if it connects to usnchooling or not.
Sure that some of the ideas of how kids learn that he talks about are the same that unschoolers have been talking about and discussing and observing here in this group.
Having said that unschooling is different than what he is doing and his Schools in the Clouds,
Unschooling is done at home with the parents as partners, facilitators, guides in a rich envinroment were kids are surrounded by computers, internet, books, toys, and so much more.
Mitra 's kids are usually in poor regions, they have no access to any of the above before and parents are usually working and not present.
Very different environments.
So instead of trying to discuss where his ideas tie to uschooling I thing a parent should focus on the needs of their child individually.
Does he crave more kids, more interactions with others?
If the child does than absolutely make sure they are getting plenty.
Not all kids need or want that type of stimulation. Some kids like to explore alone without others.
Some like maybe one other child and not lots of them.
It is your child that will determine if you need to create more opportunities for her to be with other children.
Focus on them. Not what is done in a village in the middle of nowhere by kids that have nothing.
Not that those ideas are not useful and great! They sure are wonderful. They can be great for parents that are afraid that their kids will never learn of that computer time should be limited and that kids are learning nothing by playing on computers. But for a parents wanting to understand unschooling better they should look at their children and what they are learning and what their needs are.
For the record I am one of those who loves to read about those wonderful things people are doing around the world!
I think it does NOT mater if it connects to usnchooling or not.
Sure that some of the ideas of how kids learn that he talks about are the same that unschoolers have been talking about and discussing and observing here in this group.
Having said that unschooling is different than what he is doing and his Schools in the Clouds,
Unschooling is done at home with the parents as partners, facilitators, guides in a rich envinroment were kids are surrounded by computers, internet, books, toys, and so much more.
Mitra 's kids are usually in poor regions, they have no access to any of the above before and parents are usually working and not present.
Very different environments.
So instead of trying to discuss where his ideas tie to uschooling I thing a parent should focus on the needs of their child individually.
Does he crave more kids, more interactions with others?
If the child does than absolutely make sure they are getting plenty.
Not all kids need or want that type of stimulation. Some kids like to explore alone without others.
Some like maybe one other child and not lots of them.
It is your child that will determine if you need to create more opportunities for her to be with other children.
Focus on them. Not what is done in a village in the middle of nowhere by kids that have nothing.
Not that those ideas are not useful and great! They sure are wonderful. They can be great for parents that are afraid that their kids will never learn of that computer time should be limited and that kids are learning nothing by playing on computers. But for a parents wanting to understand unschooling better they should look at their children and what they are learning and what their needs are.
For the record I am one of those who loves to read about those wonderful things people are doing around the world!
Alex Polikowsky
Pam Sorooshian
You have enough kids to say "... several of my kids..." so your kids ARE probably around other kids quite a bit. Maybe almost all the time? Siblings count.
I do think that you have to be sensitive to each child's interests and accommodate that. If you have kids who would thrive with more time spent with peers, then you should facilitate that. But, you can let your own kids be your guide as to how much of that they want.
Generalizations can be informative and interesting but they may not apply to any specific child.
-pam
I do think that you have to be sensitive to each child's interests and accommodate that. If you have kids who would thrive with more time spent with peers, then you should facilitate that. But, you can let your own kids be your guide as to how much of that they want.
Generalizations can be informative and interesting but they may not apply to any specific child.
-pam
On Sun, Nov 10, 2013 at 11:45 AM, <lalougor@...> wrote:
But as a homeschoolers, with several of my kids being very much more comfortable at home, I wonder if I don't put enough effort into having other children over or getting out among other kids more.
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
My kids have learned from one another and from other kids and continue to do so.
Here is a video of my son showing his sister how to play a game:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TsIKAF9UPyY
and here is he reading for her:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWrKokTIiOA
I have seen Gigi being helped to write and spell while Skyping with friends.
Learning from others is everywhere!
I learn from my kids all the time! My son shows me how to do things on the computer. My daughter knows more about cows then I do sometimes.
Mitra seems really amazed kids are learning on their own( no lessons or teachers) and from each other. Unschoolers have been saying that all along :)
and here is he reading for her:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWrKokTIiOA
I have seen Gigi being helped to write and spell while Skyping with friends.
Learning from others is everywhere!
I learn from my kids all the time! My son shows me how to do things on the computer. My daughter knows more about cows then I do sometimes.
Mitra seems really amazed kids are learning on their own( no lessons or teachers) and from each other. Unschoolers have been saying that all along :)
Alex Polikowsky
<lalougor@...>
Yes, my children definaty learn from each other and have an ability to figure out a wide range of things from online resources. While, I was writg my post earlier on of my sons had figured out how to make some kind of ( can't remember what he called it) for mine craft and they were discussing how to do it. My older son used to have my middle son type for him when they played roblox because he hadn't learned to read and write yet, but the younger had.
I just find it fun. I guess what I thought was so cool about the talk was that perhaps that kind of work will open up people's minds to alternatives to the typical school model.
---In [email protected], <polykowholsteins@...> wrote:My kids have learned from one another and from other kids and continue to do so.Here is a video of my son showing his sister how to play a game:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TsIKAF9UPyY
and here is he reading for her:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWrKokTIiOA
I have seen Gigi being helped to write and spell while Skyping with friends.
Learning from others is everywhere!
I learn from my kids all the time! My son shows me how to do things on the computer. My daughter knows more about cows then I do sometimes.
Mitra seems really amazed kids are learning on their own( no lessons or teachers) and from each other. Unschoolers have been saying that all along :)Alex Polikowsky
Sandra Dodd
-=- perhaps that kind of work will open up people's minds to alternatives to the typical school model. -=-
It will, mainstream relatives of unschoolers, probably.
There are lots of links to media articles here:
and it's helpful for some people to pass those on to relatives as they come out, or other mainstream articles or blogposts they just happen to come across on their own.
For radical unschoolers, though, even in India, to think of a "school" in the cloud or anywhere isn't helpful to understanding natural learning.
To get support (financial, political, social), it makes sense, in India, to say "School in the Cloud." There is no state school system there. There are people without any schools to go to, and a culture that values formal education in the extreme.
Sandra
Kyja Wilburn
I felt really shocked and hurt by the idea that we should focus only on our children and "Not what is done in a village in the middle of nowhere by kids that have nothing."
There idea that people living in rural India are in the middle of nowhere is deeply problematic. Their home is as much "somewhere" as ours. And no human being has "nothing." They have their humanity, their intelligence and likely some relationships, they have something, if not many things, to contribute to the world.
Why would we not spend time focusing on them? Or people with similar lack of material resources in our own country, state, town? It's certainly not true that our choices don't affect them. They do. Often for the worse.
Education just for our children and no one else's is an education destined to maintain deep inequality. We can only externalize the costs of inequality for so long. I don't think it's acceptable to brush away concerns about other people's children.
KyjaSade
There idea that people living in rural India are in the middle of nowhere is deeply problematic. Their home is as much "somewhere" as ours. And no human being has "nothing." They have their humanity, their intelligence and likely some relationships, they have something, if not many things, to contribute to the world.
Why would we not spend time focusing on them? Or people with similar lack of material resources in our own country, state, town? It's certainly not true that our choices don't affect them. They do. Often for the worse.
Education just for our children and no one else's is an education destined to maintain deep inequality. We can only externalize the costs of inequality for so long. I don't think it's acceptable to brush away concerns about other people's children.
KyjaSade
> On Nov 10, 2013, at 3:11 PM, BRIAN POLIKOWSKY <polykowholsteins@...> wrote:
>
> Focus on them. Not what is done in a village in the middle of nowhere by kids that have nothing.
Sandra Dodd
-=-I felt really shocked and hurt by the idea that we should focus only on our children and "Not what is done in a village in the middle of nowhere by kids that have nothing." -=-
Do you really feel shocked and hurt?
Who will be paying attention to your children while you focus on unseen strangers, or the evils you imagine of unschoolers in this discussion?
-=-Why would we not spend time focusing on them? Or people with similar lack of material resources in our own country, state, town? It's certainly not true that our choices don't affect them. They do. Often for the worse. -=-
Because if you focus on that, your children will have less than they need for unschooling to work.
There are twice as many people in the world now as when I was little. If there are seven billion, and a billion of them are in India, how will it help for one mom to feel shocked and hurt because one other mom suggested that unschoolers should pay attention to their own young children?
Another moderator was working on rejecting this post while I was letting it through. Here's what was written to the author on the side by a moderator of this group:
_______________
Alex's first language isn't English so it's possible her wording caused you to read harshness into her statement that she didn't intend. Alex is far from cold and harsh!
She wasn't saying *kids* in India don't deserve attention or compassion. She was saying that *generalizations* that researchers make about kids in India (or France or Taiwan or Timbuktu) aren't important for unschooling. What's important for helping your own kids learn is looking directly at them to discover what *they* need.
She wasn't saying *kids* in India don't deserve attention or compassion. She was saying that *generalizations* that researchers make about kids in India (or France or Taiwan or Timbuktu) aren't important for unschooling. What's important for helping your own kids learn is looking directly at them to discover what *they* need.
________________
Alex is Brazlian, and very involved in helping unschoolers in both English and Portuguese discussions.
I find it valuable to let shocked and hurt statements through and to look at them.
-=-There idea that people living in rural India are in the middle of nowhere is deeply problematic. Their home is as much "somewhere" as ours. And no human being has "nothing." They have their humanity, their intelligence and likely some relationships, they have something, if not many things, to contribute to the world.-=-
You're not their mom, though. Unschooling well requires a peaceful, safe nest for YOUR own children. You cannot build a nest big enough for every child in your neighborhood, let alone the whole world. If you try, or even have half a dozen bad dreams about it, your children lose out on your full presence.
Let childless people try to save the world. Parents with young children should be *right there.*
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
-=-Education just for our children and no one else's is an education destined to maintain deep inequality. We can only externalize the costs of inequality for so long. I don't think it's acceptable to brush away concerns about other people's children.-=-
Then it is not acceptable to you.
You don't get to say what is acceptable for every other unschooling parent.
This discussion still exists, after nearly 12 years, so that new unschoolers can get help from more experienced unschoolers, and so that those who have been unschooling a while can hone and polish their unschooling.
Unschooling isn't easy, and it's not nothing, and doing it well might do more to save the world than doing it lightly while being eaten up with negativity and fear about things one cannot change.
Sandra
Then it is not acceptable to you.
You don't get to say what is acceptable for every other unschooling parent.
This discussion still exists, after nearly 12 years, so that new unschoolers can get help from more experienced unschoolers, and so that those who have been unschooling a while can hone and polish their unschooling.
Unschooling isn't easy, and it's not nothing, and doing it well might do more to save the world than doing it lightly while being eaten up with negativity and fear about things one cannot change.
Sandra
Joyce Fetteroll
I don't know if another moderator let this through or if Yahoo hiccuped and let it through but this is what I wrote:
======
Alex's first language isn't English so it's possible her wording caused you to read harshness into her statement that she didn't intend. Alex is far from cold and harsh!
She wasn't saying *kids* in India don't deserve attention or compassion. She was saying that *generalizations* that researchers make about kids in India (or France or Taiwan or Timbuktu) aren't important for unschooling. What's important for helping your own kids learn is looking directly at them to discover what *they* need.
She wasn't saying *kids* in India don't deserve attention or compassion. She was saying that *generalizations* that researchers make about kids in India (or France or Taiwan or Timbuktu) aren't important for unschooling. What's important for helping your own kids learn is looking directly at them to discover what *they* need.
=======
There are lists and groups people can join to focus on the things besides radical unschooling they care about. If this list lets through all the worthwhile causes that unschoolers might think are important it would bury the unschooling advice beneath chatter than not everyone wants to read.
For unschooling to flourish, the relationships in the family and the kids' interests *do* need to be our primary focus. Any other interests a parent may have should be secondary.
Primary doesn't mean only. It does mean when choices pull in two different directions, choose the one that supports your own kids.
Joyce
Joyce
On Nov 11, 2013, at 11:12 AM, Kyja Wilburn wrote:
I felt really shocked and hurt by the idea that we should focus only on our children and "Not what is done in a village in the middle of nowhere by kids that have nothing."
There idea that people living in rural India are in the middle of nowhere is deeply problematic. Their home is as much "somewhere" as ours. And no human being has "nothing." They have their humanity, their intelligence and likely some relationships, they have something, if not many things, to contribute to the world.
Why would we not spend time focusing on them? Or people with similar lack of material resources in our own country, state, town? It's certainly not true that our choices don't affect them. They do. Often for the worse.
Education just for our children and no one else's is an education destined to maintain deep inequality. We can only externalize the costs of inequality for so long. I don't think it's acceptable to brush away concerns about other people's children.
KyjaSade
Sandra Dodd
Perhaps it was in the archives of this discussion, or somewhere else. I'm not finding a saved page, but there has been discussion in the past about the problem of a parent focusing on a political cause at the expense of her own, present children. I'm hoping someone will remember or be in the mood to look.
http://sandradodd.com/priorities has a touch of it.
Part of it is the negativity and despair that people bring into their homes, hearts, their moods, their being, when they are focused on *anything* other than their own children and their own parenting and learning.
http://sandradodd.com/negativity
Sandra
http://sandradodd.com/priorities has a touch of it.
Part of it is the negativity and despair that people bring into their homes, hearts, their moods, their being, when they are focused on *anything* other than their own children and their own parenting and learning.
http://sandradodd.com/negativity
Sandra
Dola Dasgupta
I am from India. I have been unschooling my two children aged 12 and 7. I feel that as I walk my path and focus on my children and unschooling, I create small ripples into alternate ways of learning and living. That is all I can and should do for now as my children are young and dependent on me. This creates compassion and deeper understanding in me about human nature and human struggles of existence.
Children in India do not go to schools for many reasons. They sometimes do not have the means to attend school for lack of money or there is lack of schools and also sometimes when there are school no one wants to go there, as the education provided by school system is of no practical relevance to their real lives and livelihoods and far removed from their native cultural, sociological and religious sensibilities and sensitivities.
The modern, English education even if taught in the regional languages, that most Indian State Run Schools use, is remotely connected to people and their real issues, desires and aspirations.
In fact there is one think tank which feels children in villages should be left to live without school. But the media has entered the remotest village of India (ironically not schools) and they show a life of promise to rural people that only a modern education can get. And greed and the desire to excel and rise form one's present state of being is inherent in all human beings, so they try and get a school education, but there are no jobs at the end of those long years in school.
And if there are any jobs at all, they are for service staff like security guards, mall assistance, cleaners, drivers etc and these jobs take the people far away from their families and roots and into a lonely city life living in slums and under poor civic conditions and urban dangers.
There is complete disillusionment as they still find themselves isolated from the 'privileged urban dwellers'. In fact the dignity with which they lived in their villages is also no longer an asset they could count on.
The need of the hour in India, which many feel strongly, is localisation of the economy and autonomy to villages and sensible use of farming land and support for traditional craft, livelihoods and wisdom, so that the children can be sustained in their natural environments and the adults do not feel the need to send them to schools for modern education.
Unfortunately the globalization of economy and blind following of mono-culture has been systematically destroying rural India and the diverse wisdom of this country. No one to blame here. It is simply facing the reality of extinction of that which no longer supports the popular mandate.
What Indian rural and semi-urban children really need is a mass unschooling movement and return to roots exodus...But that according to me is perhaps an Utopian Dream...that some fools are still dreaming..I am one of them!
And I agree with Sandra, it is better to focus on your children than on children in a far away country, the complexities of which, is very difficult for anyone who is born and lives in another country to grasp. India is the most complex nation in the world with multi-dimensional issues and each is linked to the other in non-linear ways...:)
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
Sorry I have not answered this earlier as I kind of live in the middle of nowhere and I only have one internet option ( not even a good one!) and they were working on upgrading their system! YAY) and I have not had internet until about an hour or so ago.
This group is a place to discuss unschooling in our homes and what helps and what does not. Discussing a school in India is not going to help people here unschool better even if the ideas are great.
<<<<<<<<<<There idea that people living in rural India are in the middle of nowhere is deeply problematic.>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I think the best choice I can make is to create a wonderful childhood for my children so they grow happy, healthy emotionally and physically and they are better human beings that will , like me, see worth in every child anywhere in the world even in the middle of nowhere.
We have worked with the food shelter for years through 4-H and Boys Scouts ( I was the organizer for Scouting for Food for 5 years at our local Boys Scouts troop)>
The week before we packed toiletries for kids with nothing. In my home we talk about helping others and so much more.
Years ago when my kids were younger and I was going to Walmart to buy something they wanted and saved we saw a homeless man and they ended up not buying their Pez collection item and chose to buy food to give to him. A wonderful unschooling parent read the story and send us the Pez collection and my kids still have those and love them.
So yes, focus on your children. If more children grow up love, supported and emotionally healthy I bet that will make it for a better world.
Alex Polikowsky
PS Before I had kids I even used my vacation time to work with Special Olympics. Now I have kids and they are my priority.
http://polykow.blogspot.com/2009/04/in-my-36-years-of-life-before-having-my.html
I would not take time away from my children now to do it. I still do what I can here and there but my children are my priority and my focus.
I make no apologies about that.
<<<<<<<<<<I felt really shocked and hurt by the idea that we should focus only on our children and "Not what is done in a village in the middle of nowhere by kids that have nothing." >>>>>>>>>>>>
I do think that we as unschooling parents in this list discussing and at home doing unschooling with our children should focus on them and not focus on children anywhere else in the world. That does not mean I am saying those kids are not worth.
More than most people here I am aware of how worth children are anywhere and I am very aware of children living in poverty and worse. I am from Brazil and grew up there. I know what poverty is and I was lucky to be somewhat privileged growing up.
Most people in this country think they know but they have never really seen poverty like there is in other countries.
More than most people here I am aware of how worth children are anywhere and I am very aware of children living in poverty and worse. I am from Brazil and grew up there. I know what poverty is and I was lucky to be somewhat privileged growing up.
Most people in this country think they know but they have never really seen poverty like there is in other countries.
Right now all I can do to help kids in the Philippines is send some money and I am really not able to this month so I feel bad and I wish I could do more for them.
Those people have been in my mind but I can let that take me away from my children here and now.
Those people have been in my mind but I can let that take me away from my children here and now.
I coached my son to email his friend that lives there and ask if she and her family are OK> They have not talked in months but I talk to my son that even if they are not friends anymore it is a nice gesture to reach out and check on them. He has not heard back :(
I do not think unschooling can work for anyone. If a child in a school in Africa has access to books, computers , to learn to speak English and other things and at home they have nothing as resources to learn from, I don;t think that home is a good place where unschooling can flourish! Maybe
school is the better option but as I said earlier this is not the place to discuss that.
This group is a place to discuss unschooling in our homes and what helps and what does not. Discussing a school in India is not going to help people here unschool better even if the ideas are great.
I meant that not as dismissing the worth of those or any children and I am sorry that is what you understood.
And yes I think it is more important to focus on our children. Maybe when I am older and my kids are grown and my priorities shift I can focus on kids somewhere else... or here. My kids and I already participate in many community projects locally and we do what we can.
And yes I think it is more important to focus on our children. Maybe when I am older and my kids are grown and my priorities shift I can focus on kids somewhere else... or here. My kids and I already participate in many community projects locally and we do what we can.
<<<<<<<<<<There idea that people living in rural India are in the middle of nowhere is deeply problematic.>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Why? I live in the middle of nowhere in Minnesota. It is not offensive to me. It maybe cultural , it maybe language differences but I do not understand why is that deeply problematic.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<Their home is as much "somewhere" as ours. And no human being has "nothing." They have their humanity, their intelligence and likely some relationships, they have something, if not many things, to contribute to the world. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I was going with "in the middle of nowhere" to mean a place where there is very little infrastructure, opportunities and resources. It can be anywhere. I love being in the middle of nowhere. But if I want to unschooling and I take my kids to a place in the middle of nowhere, no resources, no internet,
no computers, no library, no museums , no money to travel, no TV.... will that really be a great option? Maybe a school with all that would be a much wiser choice.
When discussing unschooling, having no resources to learn from and no options to chose from does not make it for a great learning environment needed for a child . Making their environment bigger and having more is better even if it is going to school in places like that.
When writing I was thinking in terms of unschooling or school. NOT in terms of people being less or more or having less or more worth as human beings.
I think that is where the disconnect is. It maybe I was not clear enough writing in English.
When writing I was thinking in terms of unschooling or school. NOT in terms of people being less or more or having less or more worth as human beings.
I think that is where the disconnect is. It maybe I was not clear enough writing in English.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<Why would we not spend time focusing on them? Or people with similar lack of material resources in our own country, state, town? It's certainly not true that our choices don't affect them. They do. Often for the worse. >>>>>>>>>>>>
Just tell me what kind of choice I can make here in my home that will affect a child in one of those villages ?? for worse??
I think the best choice I can make is to create a wonderful childhood for my children so they grow happy, healthy emotionally and physically and they are better human beings that will , like me, see worth in every child anywhere in the world even in the middle of nowhere.
Locally my kids and I are involved in community programs. Just last week I picked up food from our local food shelter and packed back packs for our local school kids to take home on the weekends because they have nothing at home.
We have worked with the food shelter for years through 4-H and Boys Scouts ( I was the organizer for Scouting for Food for 5 years at our local Boys Scouts troop)>
The week before we packed toiletries for kids with nothing. In my home we talk about helping others and so much more.
Years ago when my kids were younger and I was going to Walmart to buy something they wanted and saved we saw a homeless man and they ended up not buying their Pez collection item and chose to buy food to give to him. A wonderful unschooling parent read the story and send us the Pez collection and my kids still have those and love them.
I think it is probably not a good idea to tell our young kids that the choices they make at home will affect a child in one of those villages for worse. That is a lot of guilt to grow up with. I don;t think there is anything a child can do here that will directly affect any of those children in a village in India.
My mother grew up hearing that " You need to eat everything in your plate . There are starving children in Africa". She used to say that to us when she grew up and it did make me feel guilty and I ate everything even if I was done.
You know what? Me eating or not all the food in my plate has never made any difference to any of those children in Africa.
You know what? Me eating or not all the food in my plate has never made any difference to any of those children in Africa.
Alex Polikowsky
PS Before I had kids I even used my vacation time to work with Special Olympics. Now I have kids and they are my priority.
http://polykow.blogspot.com/2009/04/in-my-36-years-of-life-before-having-my.html
I would not take time away from my children now to do it. I still do what I can here and there but my children are my priority and my focus.
I make no apologies about that.
Sandra Dodd
Yes, to "middle of nowhere."
-=-When discussing unschooling, having no resources to learn from and no options to chose from does not make it for a great learning environment needed for a child . Making their environment bigger and having more is better even if it is going to school in places like that.-=-
I saw a serious middle-of-nowhere in rural India. I also saw city as far as i could see in any direction from the 13th floor in Bangalore. In both places I saw kids who weren't good candidates for unschooling. Their families didn't have anything resources or materials or transportation or internet or (maybe) knowledge of the world beyond that spot.
There are homes of a comparable moddle of somewhere, and comparable income, and one might be a great unschooling place, and the other, not good for some reasons not having to do with education or flexibility, curiosity, compassion...
There are lots of things that help unschooling work better. We should talk about them! :-)
Sandra