Nicole August

Hi,

This is my first post. I have three children 14, 11, and 8 and we've
been homeschooling for 6 years. I started out using curriculum but it
soon became clear that it wasn't working. I started out limiting screen
time and it became clear that it wasn't working. Then I found
sandradodd.com and all its links and everything became more clear. A BIG
thank you to all who share their wisdom.

Today my two younger children were playing Civilization V ( a gift from
a friend for my oldest). They were very enthusiastic ! I mentioned that
maybe they would like to learn more about the different civilizations in
the game. "That would be great, mom ! I'll write out a list for you to
take to the library" replied my 11 year old. Our new path feels wonderful.

- Nicole August
artbetweentheworlds.com

Sandra Dodd

-=-Today my two younger children were playing Civilization V ( a gift from 
a friend for my oldest). They were very enthusiastic ! I mentioned that 
maybe they would like to learn more about the different civilizations in 
the game. "That would be great, mom ! I'll write out a list for you to 
take to the library" replied my 11 year old. Our new path feels wonderful.-=-

While they're playing civilization, it might help you to read here:  http://sandradodd.com/deschooling

Playing civilization IS learning.

Do you have more than one computer?  If so, and if a question actually comes up, you could look something up for them.  But if they don't ask a question, it's probably more useful for you to watch them play the game (or play it) than to go to the library to look things up.

I'm glad you're moving more toward unschooling, and I'm glad you like my site, but they're playing a history-based game, and they're having fun.     Do you see a problem with  suggesting that if they want to learn more you will go to the library?

Sandra

Nicole August

Yes, we do have a second computer. Thanks for the suggestion to look
things up right when they have a question. They've been wondering about
the time periods as they've noticed that the civilizations in the game
are obviously not from the same times. We can only get to the library on
the weekends since we don't have transportation during the week.

Thanks
-Nicole
On 13-10-17 9:39 PM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
> -=-Today my two younger children were playing Civilization V ( a gift from
> a friend for my oldest). They were very enthusiastic ! I mentioned that
> maybe they would like to learn more about the different civilizations in
> the game. "That would be great, mom ! I'll write out a list for you to
> take to the library" replied my 11 year old. Our new path feels
> wonderful.-=-
>
>
> While they're playing civilization, it might help you to read here:
> http://sandradodd.com/deschooling
>
> Playing civilization IS learning.
>
> Do you have more than one computer? If so, and if a question actually
> comes up, you could look something up for them. But if they don't ask a
> question, it's probably more useful for you to watch them play the game
> (or play it) than to go to the library to look things up.
>
> I'm glad you're moving more toward unschooling, and I'm glad you like my
> site, but they're playing a history-based game, and they're having fun.
> Do you see a problem with suggesting that if they want to learn
> more you will go to the library?
>
> Sandra
>

Elchanan

Nicole, this is also my first post. Question: Are you under the impression that the content of the game, Civilization, reasonably
reflects and conveys a clear and comprehensive picture of these civilizations? Or is it more likely that the game picks up on some
names ... peoples, people, places, events ... that might serve as pointers for further exploration?

Thanks,
Elchanan

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Nicole August
Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2013 4:31 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Learning History

Hi,

This is my first post. I have three children 14, 11, and 8 and we've been homeschooling for 6 years. I started out using curriculum
but it soon became clear that it wasn't working. I started out limiting screen time and it became clear that it wasn't working. Then
I found sandradodd.com and all its links and everything became more clear. A BIG thank you to all who share their wisdom.

Today my two younger children were playing Civilization V ( a gift from a friend for my oldest). They were very enthusiastic ! I
mentioned that maybe they would like to learn more about the different civilizations in the game. "That would be great, mom ! I'll
write out a list for you to take to the library" replied my 11 year old. Our new path feels wonderful.

- Nicole August
artbetweentheworlds.com


------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY


 I love the library and books! My kids love books and reading about everything.
Google!
We love Google.
My kids Google all the time! I Google all the time!
MY 7 year old Googles!

My husband Googles! He learned with us!!
We have a question, we Google!

Alex Polikowsky
 
 
 

From: Nicole August <nicole.august@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2013 9:00 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Learning History

Yes, we do have a second computer. Thanks for the suggestion to look
things up right when they have a question. They've been wondering about
the time periods as they've noticed that the civilizations in the game
are obviously not from the same times. We can only get to the library on
the weekends since we don't have transportation during the week.

Thanks
  -Nicole
On 13-10-17 9:39 PM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
> -=-Today my two younger children were playing Civilization V ( a gift from
> a friend for my oldest). They were very enthusiastic ! I mentioned that
> maybe they would like to learn more about the different civilizations in
> the game. "That would be great, mom ! I'll write out a list for you to
> take to the library" replied my 11 year old. Our new path feels
> wonderful.-=-
>
>
> While they're playing civilization, it might help you to read here:
> http://sandradodd.com/deschooling
>
> Playing civilization IS learning.
>
> Do you have more than one computer?  If so, and if a question actually
> comes up, you could look something up for them.  But if they don't ask a
> question, it's probably more useful for you to watch them play the game
> (or play it) than to go to the library to look things up.
>
> I'm glad you're moving more toward unschooling, and I'm glad you like my
> site, but they're playing a history-based game, and they're having fun.
>      Do you see a problem with  suggesting that if they want to learn
> more you will go to the library?
>
> Sandra
>



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Joyce Fetteroll


On Oct 18, 2013, at 2:31 AM, Elchanan wrote:

And I'm questioning your questioning!

Question: Are you under the impression that the content of the game, Civilization, reasonably
reflects and conveys a clear and comprehensive picture of these civilizations?

Is a comprehensive picture important for learning?

Teachers will say it's important that kids have accurate information. They'll deride movies that warp history for the sake of story telling.

Teachers are right *if* a child only hears about something once. 

But that's not how children learn. It's not how humans learn. We're constantly testing our current understanding of the world against anything new. What's important for building truths about the world isn't accuracy but living a life that has enough stuff we're interested in to pull patterns from.

Most of my understanding of European medieval history came from movies and later romance novels. While accuracy was often an afterthought in movies from the 50's ;-) what helped me build a workable understanding is, well, first interest! but stumbling on the times when movies agreed on some aspect *and* when they disagreed. When movies agreed, it meant that idea was *possibly* true. When they disagreed, it became an intriguing question of which idea, if either, was right. And because the movies were clearly not a reliable resource, it meant anything might be discovered to be wrong. That's fun and exciting :-)

A few years ago before Carl, Kat and I visited England, I revisited a lot of the old "historical" movies I'd watched as kid. Obviously many of them were full of inaccuracies and anomalies. It was surprising how much Kathryn questioned as accurate even though she hadn't had nearly as much exposure to those periods as I had.

And even though my interest was high but casual it was surprisingly easy to figure out what parts of The Vikings (with Kirk Douglas) were accurate and what parts were off. The Viking village had a real feel to it, with the ponies and houses (and the director and Douglas had spent a year researching with help from Norwegian museums), but the English castle felt wrong (turns out if was a French fort from a century later) and the small stained glass window practically jumped out from the screen and said "WRONG!" ;-) But I was never told any of that information. I absorbed it, filtered it, questioned it and built up what is apparently a pretty decent foundation.

Could I pass the AP European History test? No. But that's not the purpose of learning through unschooling. The purpose is supplying a rich environment for the the child building a head full of ideas and connections she finds intriguing from. If a child discovers connections between a new idea and ideas she's already intrigued by, the new ideas get sucked in. The more interesting ideas someone has, the more ideas they'll pull in. The more ideas they have, the more connections they'll see between vastly different ideas.

And it doesn't matter whether the ideas are deemed important by experts or not. A vast knowledge of Pokemon, or bits and pieces gathered from hundreds of interests, is just as useful to build an understanding of the world from as a knowledge of the important world civilizations. *More* important if the knowledge of the world civilizations was pushed in against the child's will. 


Or is it more likely that the game picks up on some
names ... peoples, people, places, events ... that might serve as pointers for further exploration?

"Pointers" suggests wanting the child to have leads to the important stuff to know.

For unschooling the goal shouldn't be a full or thorough knowledge of a subject. It should be creating a rich life and supporting a child exploring what interests her. A rich knowledge of a subject will come naturally (in a rich environment) *if* the child has an interest that will drive her to pull in a massive amount of knowledge. (Like my daughter with dinosaurs, Pokemon, and heavy metal musicians.)

If a mom is focused on knowledge needing to look like the facts lined up in a textbook, she'll be concerned if the child is binge viewing Vampire Diaries to catch up with the current season ;-) 

If, instead, a mom sees interest, joy, and support in a rich environment being the most important aspect of a child growing in her understanding of herself and the world, then she'll be more likely to sit down and watch Vampire Diaries with her child :-) Which isn't just great for learning but for growing great relationships!

Joyce

Sandra Dodd

-=- Are you under the impression that the content of the game, Civilization, reasonably
reflects and conveys a clear and comprehensive picture of these civilizations?-=-

Children don't need a clear and comprehensive picture of a civilization.  
They need trivia, imagery, stories, names.

-=-Or is it more likely that the game picks up on some
names ... peoples, people, places, events ... that might serve as pointers for further exploration?-=-

Exploration will last a lifetime, if it's not quashed by outside pressure and categorization.


Treating a video game like history or anthropology or religion or mythology (when any video game might tie to all of those) is the sort of characterization that works against unschooling and joyful, natural, happy play and learning.  So try not to do it!!

Marty's taking a college history class, early western civilization.   As a pre-test, when they first came in, the teacher divided them into groups and gave them ten pictures to identify.  Marty's group did the best.  The other groups didn't know as many as eight of them; Marty knew eight by himself.  He missed the laws of Hammurabi (it was a photo of the obelisk), and something else.  So he told us, when we were out for pizza, and Keith and I told him what we knew of Hammurabi.  It wasn't much, and it's trivia.  It's trivia when people teach it in school and it's trivia at a pizza restaurant in an old trailer house in Tijeras, New Mexico.

Marty's "knowledge of history" came from cartoons, jokes on Animaniacs, from playing Civilization and other video games and board games, watching Disney's Hercules," from just knowing vocabulary for those things, and from.... he doesn't even know.  Being calmly in a world full of information, and not having had hit curiosity snuffed out.  It doesn't really matter to him or to school where he learned what he knows, but it matters to other unschoolers, to the extent that we know it did NOT come "from school."

If a parent plays school to the extent of filling in perceived gaps in a video game when a child hasn't asked the question, it can be more damaging than helpful.

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

Sorry I can't fix typos.  I like what Joyce wrote.  

I wrote "and not having had hit curiosity snuffed out. "  and meant  "not having had HIS curiosity snuffed out."

Giving kids more information than they want takes the learning away from them.  Maybe the mom can study all she wants about those things, but not say anything but one or two interesting bits.

For very young kids, dates are worthless.  For many older kids and adults, dates are worthless, and they're often arbitrary or turn out to be wrong, or are based on something complex, or were created to decide how to divide school textbooks into units and chapters.   When did "ancient Egypt" end?  It's a silly question, but you will find an answer.  The big question should be WHY did someone choose that time?  And is it the same year that others will claim?  And why?  

An easier one to look at might be the dates of the Renaissance, in Europe.  Not to ask kids, not for a mom here to "teach her kids," but just to look at as an example.  If there is a time when the Middle Ages ended and the Renaissance began, what's it based on?  And where?  And why?  These are big questions, created by and then wrestled with by historians, and the study of why historians do that, or thought the particulars that they did, is historiography.    Don't lay even a little of that on a child who hasn't asked a question.    If you let him learn it his own way, gradually, over many years, you will find that he has learned things you couldn't have learned, and seen things you've  never read about.  Give it time.  Give it a peaceful space.  Be a backup person, and a googling assistant, but don't create the idea that they NEED to know things from the library to make it worth playing a game, or that what you wait days to find out at the library is more important than the game playing itself is. 

Sandra

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

Just found this video and it talks about learning and games.It does talk a little about Civilization  in there !Some really interesting stuff.

http://youtu.be/JU3pwCD-ey0

 
Alex Polikowsky
 
 
 


<char@...>

And I bet at some point in the future, Marty will likely be online and remember the question in class and the family conversation over pizza and think, "I wonder why I never heard about this Hammurabi" or some question about Hammurabi and look it up himself, even if just to answer his curiosity and nothing more. Thereby furthering his knowledge base even more. All because no one ever told him he "had" to learn about it!


charlene 



---In [email protected], <polykowholsteins@...> wrote:

Just found this video and it talks about learning and games.It does talk a little about Civilization  in there !Some really interesting stuff.

http://youtu.be/JU3pwCD-ey0

 
Alex Polikowsky
 
 
 


Lisa Celedon

<<Could I pass the AP European History test? No. >>

Incidentally, I did pass it, back in 10th grade.
Wanna guess how much I remember?

What I do remember was from a separate unit my teacher covered on the history of European architecture. It was one of her passions and she covered it with such joy. That stuck with me. I really enjoyed it - because it was fun - and remember that stuff a LOT better than I remember anything else. I couldn't even tell you what was *on* the AP Euro test. But I took it and passed it.

Lisa


Sent from my iPhone

<lalougor@...>

 I really enjoy Khan Academy Crash Course in World History.  My kids watch it with me when they feel like it.



---In [email protected], <[email protected]> wrote:

Hi,

This is my first post. I have three children 14, 11, and 8 and we've
been homeschooling for 6 years. I started out using curriculum but it
soon became clear that it wasn't working. I started out limiting screen
time and it became clear that it wasn't working. Then I found
sandradodd.com and all its links and everything became more clear. A BIG
thank you to all who share their wisdom.

Today my two younger children were playing Civilization V ( a gift from
a friend for my oldest). They were very enthusiastic ! I mentioned that
maybe they would like to learn more about the different civilizations in
the game. "That would be great, mom ! I'll write out a list for you to
take to the library" replied my 11 year old. Our new path feels wonderful.

- Nicole August
artbetweentheworlds.com