Marina Moses

Well nobody had any advice for me on my first post and now it has gotten more complicated.

I am concerned about Stevie. The other day he told us that he had tried pot a few times and didn't like it. This doesn't really surprise me as his recent choice of friends is a group of stoner looking skateboarders. I don't know if he is lying about not liking it or not. He described the other kids laughing and seeming to have fun and him feeling awkward and uncomfortable. He was telling Nicholas (my 22 year old) who never told us and often seems to undermine us with Stevie. I think Nicholas has plenty of resentment he has to work out and enjoys looking cool to his little brother. I never break Stevie's confidence when he tells me what he and his brother talk about. 

We have had many conversations about drug use in our family as there is so much history of addiction. I tried very hard not to overreact because I really want him to feel safe coming to me. Nicholas kept everything from me when he was a teen. I'm sure it was because I would overreact and treat him like he didn't know anything and I fear shutting Stevie out the way I did his brother. But I am also very afraid of him damaging his developing brain.

I have told him that it will take some time to rebuild trust and that when he goes out with friends I want him to at least check in at home every 2 hours. He doesn't fight me on this but also is pretty clear that he doesn't think it is a big deal. He says  his friends aren't pot heads but only do it once in a while. I grew up with a mom who smoked before she got out of bed in the morning. My whole family (including me as a teen) smoked a lot of pot. I feel like it won't kill him but want so much more for him.

I don't believe in the scared straight kind of slanted information or control/punishment as I feel like the former doesn't work because he's done a ton of online research and the latter will just make him hide stuff once the punishment is lifted. I have also told him that I trust him to be in charge of his body and make good choices but that I realize that we all make bad choices sometimes.

All of his "role models" (rappers, musicians, skaters) seem to be promoting pot. I hate it but it is reality. I don't have good clear info on young drug experimentation and later life outcomes. I would like to be able to share unbiased stats on that sort of thing. Also, any thought you have on ways to influence him in a safe direction would be appreciated.

I hope someone answers this time.
-- 
Love and Prayers,
Marina


<Sandra@...>

AH!  I see why it wasn't responded to, in part. It was put under another topic. 


Here is the original post


I was reading Sandra Dodd's site as I often do these days and I stumbled into the "Do It" page. The urgency I have been feeling was made even greater. We are on a great path and I see my relationship with my 14 year old son really doing better and better. The book Parent/Teen Breakthrough and this page and the Yahoo groups have been so beneficial as well as Sandra's site and Living Joyfully. I have learned so much. Even though his life of relaxed/eclectic homeschooling seemed like freedom to most who observed, I can see how it was not the relationship centered lifestyle that would develop the most peace and joy in my home. He's my youngest. My husband runs his business out of our home. My 18 year old and 22 year old live with us and we are a pretty happy family unit.

  • Back to my urgency. I am extending a lot of trust to Stevie. I believe I must but I am hanging on to a lot of fear. In his life he has always been drawn to "the risky" or "inappropriate" maybe even because he's grown up with those labels from me. The thing is, we haven't stopped him from these things but have shared our views. So for example, right now it's pretty vulgar rap music which his sister is offended by. He has gotten pretty good at playing it less around her. He'll share videos with me and we'll talk about them. He thinks they're funny. Sometimes I agree, sometimes I'll say they're womanizing or a bit lacking in vocabulary (F,F,F). He likes the music (he is a musician). I don't (I'm a bit of a Rock n Roll snob and don't hear enough guitars!) but we can have good conversations. I feel like (hopefully) I'm grasping the idea of mutual respect here in the are of what I would have once called inappropriate.

    The "risky" is where I'm having trouble. The latest is skateboarding. The skating isn't the concern even though sometimes he comes home bloody! He hangs out for a few hours each day skating with kids I don't know. One of my "rules" was always that I would not let him go to someones house until I had met the parents. It gave me a chance to assess where he was going and feel better myself. Now these kids are not hanging out at someones house. They ride around looking for good things to jump off of. They range in ages and experiences and levels of drug use from none to some to probably a lot. Stevie tells me about it. He probably doesn't tell me all about it. He knows our family history (lots of addiction on both sides) and how fearful I have been for my kids in that area. He hasn't tried anything (yet) and I think it is mostly because he thinks he'll get caught and is worried about it hurting me. I have shifted my conversation to things like your body is still growing and I would love it if you waited until adulthood to experiment with things like that. I posted on "My Unschooler is Interested in..." on Facebook and got so much feedback that I have shared resources with him about drugs. We have watched videos together. Not slanted, scared straight stuff. Not one sided. It has been scary but I have even shared more of my high risk teenage stories that I locked away from my kids.

    Does anyone have ideas. I want to let go of fear because I'm sure it colors the conversation. One of the things I never see discussed is unschoolers trying drugs. Maybe this never happens but I can't believe that, especially with those starting late like us.

-- 
Love and Prayers,
Marina


--- In [email protected], <netmamaof3@...> wrote:

Well nobody had any advice for me on my first post and now it has gotten more complicated.

I am concerned about Stevie. The other day he told us that he had tried pot a few times and didn't like it. This doesn't really surprise me as his recent choice of friends is a group of stoner looking skateboarders. I don't know if he is lying about not liking it or not. He described the other kids laughing and seeming to have fun and him feeling awkward and uncomfortable. He was telling Nicholas (my 22 year old) who never told us and often seems to undermine us with Stevie. I think Nicholas has plenty of resentment he has to work out and enjoys looking cool to his little brother. I never break Stevie's confidence when he tells me what he and his brother talk about. 

We have had many conversations about drug use in our family as there is so much history of addiction. I tried very hard not to overreact because I really want him to feel safe coming to me. Nicholas kept everything from me when he was a teen. I'm sure it was because I would overreact and treat him like he didn't know anything and I fear shutting Stevie out the way I did his brother. But I am also very afraid of him damaging his developing brain.

I have told him that it will take some time to rebuild trust and that when he goes out with friends I want him to at least check in at home every 2 hours. He doesn't fight me on this but also is pretty clear that he doesn't think it is a big deal. He says  his friends aren't pot heads but only do it once in a while. I grew up with a mom who smoked before she got out of bed in the morning. My whole family (including me as a teen) smoked a lot of pot. I feel like it won't kill him but want so much more for him.

I don't believe in the scared straight kind of slanted information or control/punishment as I feel like the former doesn't work because he's done a ton of online research and the latter will just make him hide stuff once the punishment is lifted. I have also told him that I trust him to be in charge of his body and make good choices but that I realize that we all make bad choices sometimes.

All of his "role models" (rappers, musicians, skaters) seem to be promoting pot. I hate it but it is reality. I don't have good clear info on young drug experimentation and later life outcomes. I would like to be able to share unbiased stats on that sort of thing. Also, any thought you have on ways to influence him in a safe direction would be appreciated.

I hope someone answers this time.
-- 
Love and Prayers,
Marina


<Sandra@...>

I'm putting my response and Marina's brief response here, and then will delete them from the 2009 discussion about speaking at a conference. :-)


________________


-=-We are on a great path and I see my relationship with my 14 year old son really doing better and better. -=-

Maybe that intro reassured people that you're on the right path.

You can't compare a child to an ideal. Compare to the way it would be if he were in school.
I don't think school would make skateboarding less dangerous, nor drugs less available.

So if things are getting better, if you once called his music inappropriate and now you're being more open minded, then if what you're doing is better than what you were doing before, what else can you do?

-=- One of my "rules" was always that I would not let him go to someones house until I had met the parents. It gave me a chance to assess where he was going and feel better myself. Now these kids are not hanging out at someones house. -=-

The rule about only being wher eyou know the parents is fine for young children, but you can't seriously want that to extend to teenagers, can you? When would it end? 16? 18? 21? The purpose of protecting babies and young children is so they can grow up and go out into the world. If you try to stop him, you will only launch him further away.

-=- He knows our family history (lots of addiction on both sides) and how fearful I have been for my kids in that area. He hasn't tried anything (yet) and I think it is mostly because he thinks he'll get caught and is worried about it hurting me. I have shifted my conversation to things like your body is still growing and I would love it if you waited until adulthood to experiment with things like that. I posted on "My Unschooler is Interested in..." on Facebook and got so much feedback that I have shared resources with him about drugs. We have watched videos together. Not slanted, scared straight stuff. Not one sided. It has been scary but I have even shared more of my high risk teenage stories that I locked away from my kids.
-=-

So you've said your part. Let it go.
He's not you. You don't get to repair your own teenage years by trying to control him.
If his reason for not trying drugs (or for lying and telling you he hasn't) is about YOU, worry about hurting YOU, that's not a good reason. If he gets made at you (for being controlling, or something) then he could (by that logic) use drugs to hurt you.

You/mom should not be the hinge this all hangs on.

He has friends. Skateboarding is exercise. If he were in school, he would have access to all of that, and you might not even know about it.

So home has advantages, but don't mess that up by trying to know and control too much.

Control will backfire, and could keep him from being honest with you in the future.

Sandra


_______________________


Marina Moses
Message 11 of 11 , Today at 12:21 PM

Thank you and I do believe being home is vastly better than going to school. I am just looking for more of what I should be doing at home.  



--- In [email protected], <netmamaof3@...> wrote:

Well nobody had any advice for me on my first post and now it has gotten more complicated.

I am concerned about Stevie. The other day he told us that he had tried pot a few times and didn't like it. This doesn't really surprise me as his recent choice of friends is a group of stoner looking skateboarders. I don't know if he is lying about not liking it or not. He described the other kids laughing and seeming to have fun and him feeling awkward and uncomfortable. He was telling Nicholas (my 22 year old) who never told us and often seems to undermine us with Stevie. I think Nicholas has plenty of resentment he has to work out and enjoys looking cool to his little brother. I never break Stevie's confidence when he tells me what he and his brother talk about. 

We have had many conversations about drug use in our family as there is so much history of addiction. I tried very hard not to overreact because I really want him to feel safe coming to me. Nicholas kept everything from me when he was a teen. I'm sure it was because I would overreact and treat him like he didn't know anything and I fear shutting Stevie out the way I did his brother. But I am also very afraid of him damaging his developing brain.

I have told him that it will take some time to rebuild trust and that when he goes out with friends I want him to at least check in at home every 2 hours. He doesn't fight me on this but also is pretty clear that he doesn't think it is a big deal. He says  his friends aren't pot heads but only do it once in a while. I grew up with a mom who smoked before she got out of bed in the morning. My whole family (including me as a teen) smoked a lot of pot. I feel like it won't kill him but want so much more for him.

I don't believe in the scared straight kind of slanted information or control/punishment as I feel like the former doesn't work because he's done a ton of online research and the latter will just make him hide stuff once the punishment is lifted. I have also told him that I trust him to be in charge of his body and make good choices but that I realize that we all make bad choices sometimes.

All of his "role models" (rappers, musicians, skaters) seem to be promoting pot. I hate it but it is reality. I don't have good clear info on young drug experimentation and later life outcomes. I would like to be able to share unbiased stats on that sort of thing. Also, any thought you have on ways to influence him in a safe direction would be appreciated.

I hope someone answers this time.
-- 
Love and Prayers,
Marina


<Sandra@...>

So!  It seems on the "new improved" facebook if someone starts a new topic but names it the same as an older topic (in this case "Ideas") it files it with the old one.  This is not so good.  


Neither is a blank subject line because they'll probably all end up together, too.  I'm not sure what can be done.  

 



--- In [email protected], <Sandra@...> wrote:

I'm putting my response and Marina's brief response here, and then will delete them from the 2009 discussion about speaking at a conference. :-)


________________


-=-We are on a great path and I see my relationship with my 14 year old son really doing better and better. -=-

Maybe that intro reassured people that you're on the right path.

You can't compare a child to an ideal. Compare to the way it would be if he were in school.
I don't think school would make skateboarding less dangerous, nor drugs less available.

So if things are getting better, if you once called his music inappropriate and now you're being more open minded, then if what you're doing is better than what you were doing before, what else can you do?

-=- One of my "rules" was always that I would not let him go to someones house until I had met the parents. It gave me a chance to assess where he was going and feel better myself. Now these kids are not hanging out at someones house. -=-

The rule about only being wher eyou know the parents is fine for young children, but you can't seriously want that to extend to teenagers, can you? When would it end? 16? 18? 21? The purpose of protecting babies and young children is so they can grow up and go out into the world. If you try to stop him, you will only launch him further away.

-=- He knows our family history (lots of addiction on both sides) and how fearful I have been for my kids in that area. He hasn't tried anything (yet) and I think it is mostly because he thinks he'll get caught and is worried about it hurting me. I have shifted my conversation to things like your body is still growing and I would love it if you waited until adulthood to experiment with things like that. I posted on "My Unschooler is Interested in..." on Facebook and got so much feedback that I have shared resources with him about drugs. We have watched videos together. Not slanted, scared straight stuff. Not one sided. It has been scary but I have even shared more of my high risk teenage stories that I locked away from my kids.
-=-

So you've said your part. Let it go.
He's not you. You don't get to repair your own teenage years by trying to control him.
If his reason for not trying drugs (or for lying and telling you he hasn't) is about YOU, worry about hurting YOU, that's not a good reason. If he gets made at you (for being controlling, or something) then he could (by that logic) use drugs to hurt you.

You/mom should not be the hinge this all hangs on.

He has friends. Skateboarding is exercise. If he were in school, he would have access to all of that, and you might not even know about it.

So home has advantages, but don't mess that up by trying to know and control too much.

Control will backfire, and could keep him from being honest with you in the future.

Sandra


_______________________


Marina Moses
Message 11 of 11 , Today at 12:21 PM

Thank you and I do believe being home is vastly better than going to school. I am just looking for more of what I should be doing at home.  



--- In [email protected], <netmamaof3@...> wrote:

Well nobody had any advice for me on my first post and now it has gotten more complicated.

I am concerned about Stevie. The other day he told us that he had tried pot a few times and didn't like it. This doesn't really surprise me as his recent choice of friends is a group of stoner looking skateboarders. I don't know if he is lying about not liking it or not. He described the other kids laughing and seeming to have fun and him feeling awkward and uncomfortable. He was telling Nicholas (my 22 year old) who never told us and often seems to undermine us with Stevie. I think Nicholas has plenty of resentment he has to work out and enjoys looking cool to his little brother. I never break Stevie's confidence when he tells me what he and his brother talk about. 

We have had many conversations about drug use in our family as there is so much history of addiction. I tried very hard not to overreact because I really want him to feel safe coming to me. Nicholas kept everything from me when he was a teen. I'm sure it was because I would overreact and treat him like he didn't know anything and I fear shutting Stevie out the way I did his brother. But I am also very afraid of him damaging his developing brain.

I have told him that it will take some time to rebuild trust and that when he goes out with friends I want him to at least check in at home every 2 hours. He doesn't fight me on this but also is pretty clear that he doesn't think it is a big deal. He says  his friends aren't pot heads but only do it once in a while. I grew up with a mom who smoked before she got out of bed in the morning. My whole family (including me as a teen) smoked a lot of pot. I feel like it won't kill him but want so much more for him.

I don't believe in the scared straight kind of slanted information or control/punishment as I feel like the former doesn't work because he's done a ton of online research and the latter will just make him hide stuff once the punishment is lifted. I have also told him that I trust him to be in charge of his body and make good choices but that I realize that we all make bad choices sometimes.

All of his "role models" (rappers, musicians, skaters) seem to be promoting pot. I hate it but it is reality. I don't have good clear info on young drug experimentation and later life outcomes. I would like to be able to share unbiased stats on that sort of thing. Also, any thought you have on ways to influence him in a safe direction would be appreciated.

I hope someone answers this time.
-- 
Love and Prayers,
Marina


<Sandra@...>

-=-One of the things I never see discussed is unschoolers trying drugs. Maybe this never happens but I can't believe that, especially with those starting late like us. -=-


One reason is that it's illegal and it's not good to risk exposure by writing about it in public.


Those who start late have more problems in many areas.  They already have problems from some other "method" of education and parenting, or they wouldn't be coming to unschooling.  So the problems can't be caused by unschooling, especially if the unschooling is new enough that it hasn't taken hold.  And for teens, who are attached to friends their age, it can be difficult for parents to establish a friendship and trusting relationship (partnership) with the teen. 


If other families who had problems, came to unschooing, and couldn't magically erase the past, come and write that, it won't help anyone.  And writing in public about things that are illegal can be a problem separate from all the other issues.


For private help, people might need to contact a counsellor of one sort or another.  Here are some who understand unschooling already, so you won't have to explain or defend that.  But be honest with them and say you're very new and might not have deschooled yet.


http://sandradodd.com/issues/therapy


I think this is a stellar example of the mother's childhood issues coloring current decisions.  It's a very rougn situation, and I don't envy you, but I know that more control won't be the answer.



--- In [email protected], <Sandra@...> wrote:

I'm putting my response and Marina's brief response here, and then will delete them from the 2009 discussion about speaking at a conference. :-)


________________


-=-We are on a great path and I see my relationship with my 14 year old son really doing better and better. -=-

Maybe that intro reassured people that you're on the right path.

You can't compare a child to an ideal. Compare to the way it would be if he were in school.
I don't think school would make skateboarding less dangerous, nor drugs less available.

So if things are getting better, if you once called his music inappropriate and now you're being more open minded, then if what you're doing is better than what you were doing before, what else can you do?

-=- One of my "rules" was always that I would not let him go to someones house until I had met the parents. It gave me a chance to assess where he was going and feel better myself. Now these kids are not hanging out at someones house. -=-

The rule about only being wher eyou know the parents is fine for young children, but you can't seriously want that to extend to teenagers, can you? When would it end? 16? 18? 21? The purpose of protecting babies and young children is so they can grow up and go out into the world. If you try to stop him, you will only launch him further away.

-=- He knows our family history (lots of addiction on both sides) and how fearful I have been for my kids in that area. He hasn't tried anything (yet) and I think it is mostly because he thinks he'll get caught and is worried about it hurting me. I have shifted my conversation to things like your body is still growing and I would love it if you waited until adulthood to experiment with things like that. I posted on "My Unschooler is Interested in..." on Facebook and got so much feedback that I have shared resources with him about drugs. We have watched videos together. Not slanted, scared straight stuff. Not one sided. It has been scary but I have even shared more of my high risk teenage stories that I locked away from my kids.
-=-

So you've said your part. Let it go.
He's not you. You don't get to repair your own teenage years by trying to control him.
If his reason for not trying drugs (or for lying and telling you he hasn't) is about YOU, worry about hurting YOU, that's not a good reason. If he gets made at you (for being controlling, or something) then he could (by that logic) use drugs to hurt you.

You/mom should not be the hinge this all hangs on.

He has friends. Skateboarding is exercise. If he were in school, he would have access to all of that, and you might not even know about it.

So home has advantages, but don't mess that up by trying to know and control too much.

Control will backfire, and could keep him from being honest with you in the future.

Sandra


_______________________


Marina Moses
Message 11 of 11 , Today at 12:21 PM

Thank you and I do believe being home is vastly better than going to school. I am just looking for more of what I should be doing at home.  



--- In [email protected], <netmamaof3@...> wrote:

Well nobody had any advice for me on my first post and now it has gotten more complicated.

I am concerned about Stevie. The other day he told us that he had tried pot a few times and didn't like it. This doesn't really surprise me as his recent choice of friends is a group of stoner looking skateboarders. I don't know if he is lying about not liking it or not. He described the other kids laughing and seeming to have fun and him feeling awkward and uncomfortable. He was telling Nicholas (my 22 year old) who never told us and often seems to undermine us with Stevie. I think Nicholas has plenty of resentment he has to work out and enjoys looking cool to his little brother. I never break Stevie's confidence when he tells me what he and his brother talk about. 

We have had many conversations about drug use in our family as there is so much history of addiction. I tried very hard not to overreact because I really want him to feel safe coming to me. Nicholas kept everything from me when he was a teen. I'm sure it was because I would overreact and treat him like he didn't know anything and I fear shutting Stevie out the way I did his brother. But I am also very afraid of him damaging his developing brain.

I have told him that it will take some time to rebuild trust and that when he goes out with friends I want him to at least check in at home every 2 hours. He doesn't fight me on this but also is pretty clear that he doesn't think it is a big deal. He says  his friends aren't pot heads but only do it once in a while. I grew up with a mom who smoked before she got out of bed in the morning. My whole family (including me as a teen) smoked a lot of pot. I feel like it won't kill him but want so much more for him.

I don't believe in the scared straight kind of slanted information or control/punishment as I feel like the former doesn't work because he's done a ton of online research and the latter will just make him hide stuff once the punishment is lifted. I have also told him that I trust him to be in charge of his body and make good choices but that I realize that we all make bad choices sometimes.

All of his "role models" (rappers, musicians, skaters) seem to be promoting pot. I hate it but it is reality. I don't have good clear info on young drug experimentation and later life outcomes. I would like to be able to share unbiased stats on that sort of thing. Also, any thought you have on ways to influence him in a safe direction would be appreciated.

I hope someone answers this time.
-- 
Love and Prayers,
Marina


Marina Moses

I hope I didn't sound like I was blaming unschooling.� I really am not. In fact I feel like the principles of unschooling are my best choice. The world will say that I'm doing the exact opposite of what I should. My husband and I are on the same page though and I'm just looking for any more advice for the direction we are headed. Thank you again.

Marina Moses

You are right about me having to deal with my past but I've done that all through bringing up my kids and am prepared to go further now. One of my issues is that my own mother got me high for.my first time when I was 13 saying that it was safer with her than with friends. Of course I quickly started to prefer to do it with friends and lie about it. Because of my own experience I made assumptions about how these things must be handled. My mother was not unschooling, she was an addict. I am looking at these things with fresh eyes because I really want it to be different with Stevie than it was with Nicholas at this age . It already is. As I've said, he told me. That's a lot. I do share his music and love to listen to him play guitar and sing. I haven't stopped him from going out and I tell him I trust him (and I do, mostly). I appreciate any feedback and will continue to work on me. This group is a blessing.

Schuyler

One of my favourite pieces of research on drug use and addiction has been made into a beautiful comic: http://www.stuartmcmillen.com/comics_en/rat-park/. At the end of the comic are links to Dr. Bruce Alexander's research if you want to read more. If you haven't already explored this aspect of the nature of addiction it may be one of the things that will help to calm your fears. To quiet the worrying voices that insist that addiction is a necessary outcome of exposure to drugs. 

Everything I know about influencing someone toward a safe direction are bigger picture approaches. Giving someone support and not fear or criticism or nagging seem to be remarkably beneficial at limiting their propensity to self-harming. Engaging with him on all of the things he is willing to let you engage with him will be more valuable than sharing with him facts and statistics about the outcomes of drug using on the general population. He isn't the general population. He's Stevie, your son. Share skateboarding stuff. Look for ways to enjoy his music, even if it is completely based on his enjoyment. There are shows that I've watched since my children have stopped enjoying them that I can remember enjoying when they enjoyed them and now are no longer interesting. Someone else's love of something can totally change your opinion of it. Let him influence you. Maybe you and he could watch A Clockwork Orange together and think about, or, maybe, even talk about language and the ways in which it changes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nadsat). There is a South Park episode about the word "Gay" that might be interesting viewing, as well. Oh, and in the series Firefly the language use is fascinating (http://firefly.wikia.com/wiki/Language). 

He isn't yours to control. He is his own. It's a hard piece of knowledge to gain. By being there for him, by setting aside your preconceived notions of what is and looking directly at him to see what really is, you will be better able to understand his choices and may be able to move away from a state of worry and concern to one of connection and trust. 

Schuyler



Sandra Dodd

-=-So!  It seems on the "new improved" facebook if someone starts-=-

Yahoogroups, not facebook.   Sorry.

In the past month I've been frustrated with changes on photobucket and facebook, and had a bad week with blogspot, even.
And then Yahoo went wiggy.

Sorry I mixed them up.  It's probably that horizontal banner on the main page, with the same code as facebook pages, and the lack of the art this page had for so many years.

Sandra Dodd

-=-Well nobody had any advice for me on my first post and now it has gotten more complicated.-=-

It didn't get more complicated because no one on the list could think of anything to write, though, did it?

-=-I have told him that it will take some time to rebuild trust and that when he goes out with friends I want him to at least check in at home every 2 hours.-=-

I think he's too old for that.
I think it's setting him up to fail, and to be in trouble, or to lie about phones not working or something.

It's not good to say "I trust you" when you don't.  You don't need to talk so much about it at all.  Many parents talk too much.  I do too, most of the time.  Often it adds more irritation on the part of the kid than it does anything else.

(I'm sorry this mail didn't go out earlier.  I had a pile of open windows, with this one down the bottom.)

Sandra



Marina Moses

Schulyer,
Thank you for the links and the ideas (We all love Firefly and all things Joss Whedon!). 

Sandra,
You keep helping me get more clear. Maybe I should have written exactly what In was thinking. Possibly:
"Nobody answered me and I hope I didn't say anything offensive because I'm new and still learning!  Now, after I used ideas from the recommended book Parent Teen Breakthrough to have a different kind of conversation about drugs with him, Stevie got honest with me. HELP ME NOT FREAK OUT!!!"

I think you are right. I talk way too much. 

I wasn't asking him to check in by phone. He's out skating or bike riding and I asked him to stop in. I didn't tell him to. I actually said that it would be nice for me if he did because I am concerned. He said no problem. I feel like this is a shift for us as in the past he would have had a lot more talking/guilt/lecturing. Won't jumping straight to another extreme be a bit much?

About trust. I'm starting to think maybe I have to trust him to be him not trust him to do what I want. It's a tough revelation.

Sorry about not trimming my posts before. Thank you for all of the support. 


Love and Prayers,
    Marina 

Joyce Fetteroll


On Sep 21, 2013, at 3:36 PM, Marina Moses wrote:

I tell him I trust him (and I do, mostly)

What does mostly trust look like?

More importantly, what does mostly trust feel like? I think it feels like not being trusted. I think it feels like you approve when he makes the choice you think is right and you're disappointed when he doesn't.

Don't trust him to make the right decision. Trust him to make thoughtful decisions. Sometimes those decisions won't work out the way he expected. Trust that he didn't want the bad things to happen and that every choice he makes grows his understanding of the world and understanding of himself.

It's a huge amount of pressure for a child to feel their trustworthiness rests on making the choices their parents want them to. Instead trust that they're thoughtful and each choice helps them grow more thoughtful.

Joyce

Sandra Dodd

-=- Stevie got honest with me. HELP ME NOT FREAK OUT!!!"-=-

It's not his job, though, to help you not freak out.
You already know this is about your own childhood.

Is there something like Adult Children of Alcoholics for drug-addicted parents?  Maybe Adult Children of Alcoholics would do it.    If you can't find meetings, maybe at least buy the book, and work through your own issues the way you might even if you didn't have a child.  Otherwise, your son will still be burdened with your unaddressed personal issues.

If you TELL him to "get honest with you," it's another opportunity for you to scare him away.  Or for him to choose not to share (for whatever combinations of reasons, but to have gone against your request/requirement.

-=-I wasn't asking him to check in by phone. He's out skating or bike riding and I asked him to stop in. I didn't tell him to. I actually said that it would be nice for me if he did because I am concerned. He said no problem.-=-

Perhaps you were unclear with him, as you were with us.  Or unclear with yourself.  Asking him to do something, and then him possibly failing (or thinking it was an option he could actually opt out of), and then you freaking out... I don't think that will help either of you, nor the relationship of the two of you.

-=- I feel like this is a shift for us as in the past he would have had a lot more talking/guilt/lecturing. Won't jumping straight to another extreme be a bit much?-=-

Don't jump.
Walk one sensible, well-considered step to another.
http://sandradodd.com/parentingpeacefully

Try to get out of town with him.  Maybe to a skateboarding shop in another city, or a show/competition/something.  Somewhere with a skate park, maybe.  Or to a concert or museum or movie or something.  You and him, in a car (or on a train, I don't know where you are) and consider this.  Talk VERY LITTLE, but it might be different, away from your home town, away from other everyday tasts and distractions.


Sandra

Marina Moses

I'm sorry Sandra. I was not saying he should help me not freak out nor that I told him to get honest with me.  I was saying that when I addressed this group I should have  been more clear. I was very calm with him and listened way more and talked way less when he responded to the new way I was talking to him. I was really asking this group to help me not freak out. To help me with ideas on shifting my thinking so I'm doing the best for him. You did. Again, I talk too much. I'm going to work on this.

On Sep 22, 2013 8:54 AM, "Sandra Dodd" <Sandra@...> wrote:
 

-=- Stevie got honest with me. HELP ME NOT FREAK OUT!!!"-=-


It's not his job, though, to help you not freak out.
You already know this is about your own childhood.

Is there something like Adult Children of Alcoholics for drug-addicted parents?  Maybe Adult Children of Alcoholics would do it.    If you can't find meetings, maybe at least buy the book, and work through your own issues the way you might even if you didn't have a child.  Otherwise, your son will still be burdened with your unaddressed personal issues.

If you TELL him to "get honest with you," it's another opportunity for you to scare him away.  Or for him to choose not to share (for whatever combinations of reasons, but to have gone against your request/requirement.

-=-I wasn't asking him to check in by phone. He's out skating or bike riding and I asked him to stop in. I didn't tell him to. I actually said that it would be nice for me if he did because I am concerned. He said no problem.-=-

Perhaps you were unclear with him, as you were with us.  Or unclear with yourself.  Asking him to do something, and then him possibly failing (or thinking it was an option he could actually opt out of), and then you freaking out... I don't think that will help either of you, nor the relationship of the two of you.

-=- I feel like this is a shift for us as in the past he would have had a lot more talking/guilt/lecturing. Won't jumping straight to another extreme be a bit much?-=-

Don't jump.
Walk one sensible, well-considered step to another.
http://sandradodd.com/parentingpeacefully

Try to get out of town with him.  Maybe to a skateboarding shop in another city, or a show/competition/something.  Somewhere with a skate park, maybe.  Or to a concert or museum or movie or something.  You and him, in a car (or on a train, I don't know where you are) and consider this.  Talk VERY LITTLE, but it might be different, away from your home town, away from other everyday tasts and distractions.


Sandra

<plaidpanties666@...>

 >> I am also very afraid of him damaging his developing brain<<

This is anecdotal, but most of the responsible adult pot-smokers I know started smoking in their early teens. So whatever brain damage may occur, it doesn't stop people from becoming lawyers, CPAs, teachers, sheriffs, construction workers, doctors, ministers, graphic designers, computer programmers, theoretical physicists, civil engineers, or small business owners.


>>We have had many conversations about drug use in our family as there is so much history of addiction<<

A history of addiction in the family can really skew the perceptions of other family members, and make any kind of drug or alcohol use seem more black and white than it really is - because you don't have allllllllll the other experience of normal, non-harmful, recreational use. From that perspective, it might be helpful to you to actively explore resources around legalization of marijuana and other drugs - actively go looking for other information to balance your own experiences. 

A history of addiction in a family can also mean a history of 12- step programs, which adds another complication - because while the 12-step model is very heavily promoted, it's not terribly effective and can even make problems worse. So it could be valuable for you to actively question any 12-step propaganda you've internalized and actively research other theories and approaches to addiction. 


>>any thought you have on ways to influence him in a safe direction<<


What do you mean by "safe"? That's something to ponder - what is safety and how does one achieve it, or the sense of it? 

My stepson skateboards and when he was younger, 13 and new to unschooling, he skated a lot. He experimented with skating without a helmet - carving, mostly, he's not much of a jumper. There was a certain amount of social pressure at the skatepark to skate without a helmet, but over time Ray decided he wasn't comfortable carving without one. It didn't seem safe to him. 

He's been out street-skating with friends from time to time, and it's a great way for him to explore new cities. It is undeniably dangerous... but for a young adult male, exploring cities at all is dangerous in a particular way. Not knowing the local expectations can lead to real violence. But vague warnings about maybe-violence aren't what he needs, he needs someone who knows the territory to give him real information about how to keep a low profile. What does seem to help is to give him a chance to talk about his experiences, and take his thoughts and feelings seriously without lecturing him on what he should do/have done. He's more likely to think things through, think about the reasons why people behave the way they do, and make thoughtful decisions... but not always "safe" decisions in the sense of avoiding anything that could be dangerous. 


---Meredith



--- In [email protected], <[email protected]> wrote:

Well nobody had any advice for me on my first post and now it has gotten more complicated.

I am concerned about Stevie. The other day he told us that he had tried pot a few times and didn't like it. This doesn't really surprise me as his recent choice of friends is a group of stoner looking skateboarders. I don't know if he is lying about not liking it or not. He described the other kids laughing and seeming to have fun and him feeling awkward and uncomfortable. He was telling Nicholas (my 22 year old) who never told us and often seems to undermine us with Stevie. I think Nicholas has plenty of resentment he has to work out and enjoys looking cool to his little brother. I never break Stevie's confidence when he tells me what he and his brother talk about. 

We have had many conversations about drug use in our family as there is so much history of addiction. I tried very hard not to overreact because I really want him to feel safe coming to me. Nicholas kept everything from me when he was a teen. I'm sure it was because I would overreact and treat him like he didn't know anything and I fear shutting Stevie out the way I did his brother. But I am also very afraid of him damaging his developing brain.

I have told him that it will take some time to rebuild trust and that when he goes out with friends I want him to at least check in at home every 2 hours. He doesn't fight me on this but also is pretty clear that he doesn't think it is a big deal. He says  his friends aren't pot heads but only do it once in a while. I grew up with a mom who smoked before she got out of bed in the morning. My whole family (including me as a teen) smoked a lot of pot. I feel like it won't kill him but want so much more for him.

I don't believe in the scared straight kind of slanted information or control/punishment as I feel like the former doesn't work because he's done a ton of online research and the latter will just make him hide stuff once the punishment is lifted. I have also told him that I trust him to be in charge of his body and make good choices but that I realize that we all make bad choices sometimes.

All of his "role models" (rappers, musicians, skaters) seem to be promoting pot. I hate it but it is reality. I don't have good clear info on young drug experimentation and later life outcomes. I would like to be able to share unbiased stats on that sort of thing. Also, any thought you have on ways to influence him in a safe direction would be appreciated.

I hope someone answers this time.
-- 
Love and Prayers,
Marina


Sandra Dodd

-=-A history of addiction in a family can also mean a history of 12- step programs, which adds another complication - because while the 12-step model is very heavily promoted, it's not terribly effective and can even make problems worse. So it could be valuable for you to actively question any 12-step propaganda you've internalized and actively research other theories and approaches to addiction. -=-

Maybe, but denigrating all 12 step programs will separate people from al-Anon which can be a life changer for people who aren't addicts or alcoholics.  Calling it "propaganda" could separate someone from something that could be valuable.   It doesn't have to be "terribly effective" to make one life better.

-=-A history of addiction in the family can really skew the perceptions of other family members, and make any kind of drug or alcohol use seem more black and white than it really is - because you don't have allllllllll the other experience of normal, non-harmful, recreational use.-=-

There are genetic realities.  It's not just experience with normal, and history of addiction.
My dad's family is not at all an addictive crowd.  Even in seasons of drinking, none of his relatives are alcoholics.  My mom's family, it seems some of them were alcholics the first time they drank, in teen years, and never stopped.  It's really pretty horrible.

My kids have 1 addicted/addictive grandparent out of four, neither parent "substance abusers."  Though they have all had alcohol and 2/3 have "tried drugs" (smoked marijuana), none is kept from working or from healthy relationships.  None of them drink when there's not a party.  None sit around drinking.  

My sister's kids have 3/4 addicted (alcoholic) grandparents.  One boy was a heroin addict and is not a drug counsellor.  One became an alcoholic, and we stopped inviting him over because he would get drunk, obnoxious, and pass out somewhere.   Earlier this year, his older brother got him involved in meetings and he's not beein drinking since January.  They have a sister who is not an addict, and who also is likely a half sister.  (That would lead to sordid stories of her two once-heavily-drinking parents, who both stopped cold turkey for many years, but still ended up divorced.)

I have a half brother with 3/4 addicted grandparnets, two parents were wildly "active alcoholics."  He has been addicted to every substance he's ever messed with, and I have very little contact with him.  I'm sorry 2/3 of the tie, when he contacts me.  It's usually sordid and abusive.  

My kids see their cousins.  They see friends.  They knew my mom.  

Early on I told them genetics weren't clear on this and I didn't know their risks, but to be aware that in some people there's a propensity.  A warning or two is all.  Drop it after that.  Ragging on them will not, ever, in any way, help.

Sandra

Brandi Yates

�>>�I am also very afraid of him damaging his developing brain<<

I think that I would be very worried about this as well.� Some kids smoke pot as teenagers and are fine later in life.� Some are not.� I am for one on disability as a result of another drug.� I am not trying to scare anyone.� I think its fine for adults to smoke pot and it should be legal.� I dont have a problem with any drug being legal.� I think people should be able to make that decision. I just feel like teenagers should be kept away from any recreational drug and even some prescriptive medicines for mental illness.

Pot affects everyone differently.�

Sandra Dodd

-=- I am also very afraid of him damaging his developing brain-=-

I agree with Meredith on this:  -=-This is anecdotal, but most of the responsible adult pot-smokers I know started smoking in their early teens. So whatever brain damage may occur, it doesn't stop people from becoming lawyers, CPAs, teachers, sheriffs, construction workers, doctors, ministers, graphic designers, computer programmers, theoretical physicists, civil engineers, or small business owners.-=-

I know lots of occasional pot smokers.  
I know lots of alcoholics, and that's where the brain damage seems to be.  Or in some cases, brain damage first, then alcohol (my mom, likely).

I know people who used LSD and are fine.  Mushrooms, no brain damage apparent.  Then there are people who have not used any drugs or alcohol, and go crazy with things like schizophrenia—the REAL crazy, because it's genetic.  It's easy to to confuse coincidence or correlation with "cause and effect."   It's easy to wish attempts at control would help.

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

-=. I just feel like teenagers should be kept away from any recreational drug and even some prescriptive medicines for mental illness.-=-

Well teenagers cannot live in the real world AND be kept away from the real world.

-=- Some kids smoke pot as teenagers and are fine later in life.-=-

Most are fine, not only later in life, but even while they're teens.  Unschooling is going to work better with relaxed parents who see their children as living, alive, now.

-=-Pot affects everyone differently.-=-

I don't think that's true.  Different people might respond differently, but biocheical realities aren't random factors.  
When people get drunk, some are melancholy, some get loud or violent, some just sit quietly or go to sleep.  But there are not as many different reactions as there are drunks.

-=-Pot affects everyone differently.-=-
-=- teenagers should be kept away from any recreational drug-=-

Restrictions affect people the same way, pretty much.  Too many arbitrary or unenforceable "rules" have the same negative effect on relationships and trust, I think.


It is possible for a family to wait too long to begin unschooling.  That is true.
Many people reading here have young children, though, and I want the ideas presented and supported here to be helpful to them.

Sandra

<plaidpanties666@...>

>>. I just feel like teenagers should be kept away from any recreational drug<<


http://sandradodd.com/t/economics



--- In [email protected], <[email protected]> wrote:

�>>�I am also very afraid of him damaging his developing brain<<

I think that I would be very worried about this as well.� Some kids smoke pot as teenagers and are fine later in life.� Some are not.� I am for one on disability as a result of another drug.� I am not trying to scare anyone.� I think its fine for adults to smoke pot and it should be legal.� I dont have a problem with any drug being legal.� I think people should be able to make that decision. I just feel like teenagers should be kept away from any recreational drug and even some prescriptive medicines for mental illness.

Pot affects everyone differently.�

<plaidpanties666@...>

 >>Pot affects everyone differently<<


One of the problems with taking a very "hard line" stance on recreational drugs is that it discourages your kids from talking To You about the way whatever drugs they've tried effect them. Their only option is to talk with friends - and that may not be a good venue for saying "I don't like this". Not everyone enjoys smoking pot - but it's much harder to admit that when it's something you're doing rebelliously, or clandestinely. There's a value in pretending to enjoy yourself because you've invested a lot of energy into doing this thing on the sly. 


When my stepson was experimenting with drugs, it helped him to be able to say "I didn't have a good time" - it even helped him in terms of saying "I don't want to do that," later to friends, or leaving parties that were getting too wild. 

"Everyone responds differently" isn't a reason to avoid something, it's a reason to be mindful. 


---Meredith



--- In [email protected], <[email protected]> wrote:

�>>�I am also very afraid of him damaging his developing brain<<

I think that I would be very worried about this as well.� Some kids smoke pot as teenagers and are fine later in life.� Some are not.� I am for one on disability as a result of another drug.� I am not trying to scare anyone.� I think its fine for adults to smoke pot and it should be legal.� I dont have a problem with any drug being legal.� I think people should be able to make that decision. I just feel like teenagers should be kept away from any recreational drug and even some prescriptive medicines for mental illness.

Pot affects everyone differently.�

Brandi Yates

You still need a stance whether they talk to you or not right?  This is something I have thought about for over 20 years.

My mom took the "friend" stance with me when I was a teenager.  I was allowed to go out anytime I wanted.  I could pretty much do whatever I wanted as long as we had open communication.  I did do whatever I wanted.  Did I tell her everything I did because we had good communication?  Absolutely not.  I wish she had set at least some rules with me when I was a teenager.  It could have prevented A LOT of mistakes for me.  Im not saying a rule "no drugs" but know where your child is and who he is with.  Unschooling doesnt mean you have to stop being a parent that has a clear understanding of what these drugs can do to a person.  Think about it.  You do not know what is in them.  You do not know who made them.  Do you eat healthy and do you make educated decisions? 




On Sun, Sep 22, 2013 at 12:52 PM, <plaidpanties666@...> wrote:
 

 >>Pot affects everyone differently<<


One of the problems with taking a very "hard line" stance on recreational drugs is that it discourages your kids from talking To You about the way whatever drugs they've tried effect them. Their only option is to talk with friends - and that may not be a good venue for saying "I don't like this". Not everyone enjoys smoking pot - but it's much harder to admit that when it's something you're doing rebelliously, or clandestinely. There's a value in pretending to enjoy yourself because you've invested a lot of energy into doing this thing on the sly. 


When my stepson was experimenting with drugs, it helped him to be able to say "I didn't have a good time" - it even helped him in terms of saying "I don't want to do that," later to friends, or leaving parties that were getting too wild. 

"Everyone responds differently" isn't a reason to avoid something, it's a reason to be mindful. 


---Meredith



--- In [email protected], <[email protected]> wrote:

�>>�I am also very afraid of him damaging his developing brain<<

I think that I would be very worried about this as well.� Some kids smoke pot as teenagers and are fine later in life.� Some are not.� I am for one on disability as a result of another drug.� I am not trying to scare anyone.� I think its fine for adults to smoke pot and it should be legal.� I dont have a problem with any drug being legal.� I think people should be able to make that decision. I just feel like teenagers should be kept away from any recreational drug and even some prescriptive medicines for mental illness.

Pot affects everyone differently.�


Joyce Fetteroll


On Sep 22, 2013, at 2:15 PM, Brandi Yates wrote:

You still need a stance whether they talk to you or not right?

Right? Right for what purpose?

There isn't one answer. There are choices that lead towards better relationships. There are choices that lead towards more control. There are loads of destinations and choices.

What works best for growing closer relationships is being trustworthy, providing information, providing support.

My mom took the "friend" stance with me when I was a teenager. 

But you weren't unschooled, right?

It makes a difference. A child in school is often disconnected from her parents in an awkward way. She and and her  are leading separate lives. A schooled child having independent experiences, making independent choices, and yet biologically she's still dependent. 

A mother of a schooled child may need to create some false overlay for her relationship with her kids because the actual relationship is broken and shallow from years of leading separate lives.

I wish she had set at least some rules with me when I was a teenager. 

Schooled kids whose mothers aren't  trustworthy, who are essentially unparenting, often do wish they had some rules. Rules would feel like "I care what you do."

But with unschooling, the connections don't need shored up falsely. The connections are based on the parents being interested in who the kids are and what they enjoy, and being a trustworthy source of help.

 Im not saying a rule "no drugs" but know where your child is and who he is with. 

When a relationship is based on the mom being trustworthy, asking a child to let her parents know where she is is just courtesy. My husband tells me where he's going. My daughter did the same.

Unschooling doesnt mean you have to stop being a parent that has a clear understanding of what these drugs can do to a person.

But the more the parent takes the "stand" that "I know the right information. I need  you to know it so you can make the decisions I believe are right," the more the teen is likely to tune the parent out.

Think about it. 

You're suggesting that the long time unschoolers who are replying haven't thought about it.

I don't mean, "I'm insulted you think such a thing!" I mean, what we're saying sounds off to you because you're filtering it through your childhood experience. Truths about schooled kids can't be pasted onto unschooled kids' lives. Unschooled kids are different from schooled kids. Their relationships with their parents are different from schooled kids. When an unschooling parent who has built a solid relationship with her child says, "Call me so I know where you are," it doesn't sound like one more  way to control, one more way to say "I don't trust you." It sounds like keeping connected.

A schooled kid, especially an older kid, can't be pulled from school and treated like a long time unschooled child. The relationship needs to heal first.

The Parent/Teen Breakthrough book is very good for that since it's about schooled kids.

You do not know what is in them.  You do not know who made them.  Do you eat healthy and do you make educated decisions?  

You're writing from a point of fear. While what you've written might be useful facts to pass onto a child you're elevating it's importance because you're afraid of a child experimenting.

Joyce

Schuyler

"I wish she had set at least some rules with me when I was a teenager.  It could have prevented A LOT of mistakes for me."

I broke the rules that were set for me when I was a teenager. Having the rules didn't prevent my mistakes. It would be nice if I could lay the blame for the things that I didn't do correctly upon others. And, at some level, I'm sure that I justify some of my choices by laying the blame on others. Ultimately it doesn't matter, what could have been done better, what could have improved my outcome. What does matter is figuring out how to let go of those hurts, those lacks and to move on to making a life that is not defined by those things. 

I don't know that I've prevented Simon and Linnaea from making mistakes by unschooling them, by having a good and loving relationship with them. What I hope I have done is made it possible for them to come to me when they do make a mistake that they need help solving. Or, simply, to be willing to talk to me about their lives. 

Schuyler

From: Brandi Yates <brandi.yates@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, 23 September 2013, 4:15
Subject: Re: Re: [AlwaysLearning] RE:



You still need a stance whether they talk to you or not right?  This is something I have thought about for over 20 years.

My mom took the "friend" stance with me when I was a teenager.  I was allowed to go out anytime I wanted.  I could pretty much do whatever I wanted as long as we had open communication.  I did do whatever I wanted.  Did I tell her everything I did because we had good communication?  Absolutely not.  I wish she had set at least some rules with me when I was a teenager.  It could have prevented A LOT of mistakes for me.  Im not saying a rule "no drugs" but know where your child is and who he is with.  Unschooling doesnt mean you have to stop being a parent that has a clear understanding of what these drugs can do to a person.  Think about it.  You do not know what is in them.  You do not know who made them.  Do you eat healthy and do you make educated decisions?  

<plaidpanties666@...>

 >> I wish she had set at least some rules with me when I was a teenager.  It could have prevented A LOT of mistakes for me.<<


Only if you had followed them. That's the trouble with rules - they depend entirely on someone being willing to follow them. What many kids learn from rules is not to get caught breaking them. 


And it's possible the rules wouldn't have fit all the situations - my parents had rules like "you can't be out after curfew" that I sometimes ignored as a teen because I chose to be the designated driver. So I'd be out after curfew taking other kids home safely, trying not to get caught so that I could go on providing that service to my classmates. 


>>Did I tell her everything I did because we had good communication?  Absolutely not.<<


Exactly. So rules wouldn't have mattered. You're mistaking a lack of rules for some other lack - a lack of communication, or a sense of care and support. Your mom wasn't a very good friend, not someone you could trust to help you think things through, or support you through a tough decision. 


>>Unschooling doesnt mean you have to stop being a parent<<


Learning doesn't come from parents. That's important. Learning is an internal process. It depends heavily on the perspective of the individual in the moment. 


By the time your kids are teens, they know your flaws, your mistakes, all your little errors in judgement, all  your little failings. All those things are part of their perspective of adults, of you, and of what you tell them about the world. And! by the time kids are teens they mostly Don't Want to be Told about the world. Whether they're willing to listen to what anyone - parent or otherwise - has to say will depend largely on how trustworthy they find that person. 


 >>doesnt mean you have to stop being a parent that has a clear understanding of what these drugs can do to a person<<

I want to be clear that I'm not saying parents shouldn't share helpful information - that's not being a very good friend, either. I Want my friends to give me realistic, helpful information... but I also know that there are some friends who aren't good sources of information. And sharing information does not automatically result in learning - that's the important thing to keep in mind, from an unschooling perspective: teaching isn't learning! Telling isn't learning. Sharing information isn't learning. Learning is often experiential - and often involves taking risks. The risk of getting it wrong. Sometimes the risk of getting hurt. And the older kids get the less input you have on deciding what kind of risk is acceptable.

What you can do is be part of the back-up plan when things don't work out. That might not sound like much, but it can make a big difference - in terms of people making more thoughtful decisions - to know that there's someone who will help if things don't go according to plan. 


---Meredith



--- In [email protected], <[email protected]> wrote:

You still need a stance whether they talk to you or not right?  This is something I have thought about for over 20 years.

My mom took the "friend" stance with me when I was a teenager.  I was allowed to go out anytime I wanted.  I could pretty much do whatever I wanted as long as we had open communication.  I did do whatever I wanted.  Did I tell her everything I did because we had good communication?  Absolutely not.  I wish she had set at least some rules with me when I was a teenager.  It could have prevented A LOT of mistakes for me.  Im not saying a rule "no drugs" but know where your child is and who he is with.  Unschooling doesnt mean you have to stop being a parent that has a clear understanding of what these drugs can do to a person.  Think about it.  You do not know what is in them.  You do not know who made them.  Do you eat healthy and do you make educated decisions? 




On Sun, Sep 22, 2013 at 12:52 PM, <plaidpanties666@...> wrote:
 

 >>Pot affects everyone differently<<


One of the problems with taking a very "hard line" stance on recreational drugs is that it discourages your kids from talking To You about the way whatever drugs they've tried effect them. Their only option is to talk with friends - and that may not be a good venue for saying "I don't like this". Not everyone enjoys smoking pot - but it's much harder to admit that when it's something you're doing rebelliously, or clandestinely. There's a value in pretending to enjoy yourself because you've invested a lot of energy into doing this thing on the sly. 


When my stepson was experimenting with drugs, it helped him to be able to say "I didn't have a good time" - it even helped him in terms of saying "I don't want to do that," later to friends, or leaving parties that were getting too wild. 

"Everyone responds differently" isn't a reason to avoid something, it's a reason to be mindful. 


---Meredith



--- In [email protected], <[email protected]> wrote:

�>>�I am also very afraid of him damaging his developing brain<<

I think that I would be very worried about this as well.� Some kids smoke pot as teenagers and are fine later in life.� Some are not.� I am for one on disability as a result of another drug.� I am not trying to scare anyone.� I think its fine for adults to smoke pot and it should be legal.� I dont have a problem with any drug being legal.� I think people should be able to make that decision. I just feel like teenagers should be kept away from any recreational drug and even some prescriptive medicines for mental illness.

Pot affects everyone differently.�


BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

But Your mom was not unschooling you and you mentioned that she was also an addict.
Was she neglectful? was she there when you needed her? did you trust her ?
Could you count on her to be there as a partner?
 I think you are still seeing  unschooling in terms of rules.
Letting them do what they. But it is not about that.
It is about being a parent that your child can count on , trust.



 
Alex Polikowsky
 
 
 


Colleen

****Unschooling doesnt mean you have to stop being a parent****

My son is only 10, so we haven't reached the teen years yet :-)

But I do know that indeed unschooling doesn't mean you stop being a parent.  I'm a parent.  Will be permanently, since I have a child :-)

I'm not a big fan of using "parent" to mean something beyond the dictionary definition.  Which according to mine is "a caretaker of the offspring of their own species."  Sure enough - my son is fed, warm, clothed, and happy because I'm his parent - his caretaker.

But, since "being a parent" often means to many people something outside of the dictionary definition and more along the lines of "being someone who exerts their authority over another in order to attempt to produce a desired outcome" (yuck :-)) I will say this - 

I am not a parent who believes that I can control my son's choices, or the outcomes that will result from his making choices.

He will face the big wide world, without me by his side, one day in the not-too-distant future - at first (as he already does) for hours and days - and then, later, for months and years.

What I hope, when he's out in the world, is that his experience with me will have let him know that I'm here for him, no matter what he chooses and no matter what happens as a result of his choices.  What I hope is that by being someone who shares information without making Rules That Must Be Followed - by being someone who has shown that I don't freak out when he doesn't do things My Way or think of things exactly as I do - by being someone who is calm and consistently here to lend a listening ear, help him out of a tough spot, or clean up when things get (literally or more proverbially) messy - I've built a foundation of trust and goodness that will serve him well, and draw him back when he gets in over his head out there in the world, and he needs help for a moment, an hour, or a good long time.

So very many people think that they can control their children, their children's future, their spouses, their pets… lots of folks manicure their lawns to exacting standards, convinced they can even control weeds and grass blades and Nature itself if they try hard enough.

Unschooling, to me, as it relates to parenting, to relationships in general, and to the whole wide world and my time in it :-) doesn't mean you stop being a parent (or a wife, or a neighbor, or a gardener, etc.).  It means you stop trying to Control - and you learn to Accept and to work with What Is (not what might be, or what you wish was, or what you hope will Never be).  

Control is a pretty terrible thing to try to have over others.  Life is more fun, more fabulous, and just plain better when control is no longer the goal - when you can deal with what you have, rather than trying to turn what you have and those who are around you into something you think might be Better.  Because what you have, most of the time, is pretty darn awesome if you can step back and learn to see it as such :-)

Colleen 
(who has more than a few weeds and a whole lot of clover growing in amongst the grass and bald-patches in her front yard… :-))

Sandra Dodd

-=-You still need a stance whether they talk to you or not right?  This is something I have thought about for over 20 years.-=-

Only the thoughts since you've been unschooling are important here, really.

That's somewhat tongue in cheek, but people come here for radical unschooling discussion, and not for mainstream ideas.  Those are available everywhere around us, but the discussion here, the more it is solidly on the topic of what helps unschooling, is rare and important.

-=-My mom took the "friend" stance with me when I was a teenager.-=-

Pam Sorooshian wrote something about parents being their children's friends:

Marina DeLuca-Howard


-=-My mom took the "friend" stance with me when I was a teenager.-=-

The word friend means something though and if you didn't like or trust or treat your mother like an ally then she wasn't your "friend" as defined below. 

friend  (frnd)
n.
1. A person whom one knows, likes, and trusts.
2. A person whom one knows; an acquaintance.
3. A person with whom one is allied in a struggle or cause; a comrade.
4. One who supports, sympathizes with, or patronizes a group, cause, or movement: friends of the clean air movement.
5. Friend A member of the Society of Friends; a Quaker.
tr.v. friend·ed, friend·ing, friends
1. To add (someone) as a friend on a social networking website.
2. Archaic To befriend.
[Middle English, from Old English frond; see pr- in Indo-European roots.]
friendless adj.
friendless·ness n.
Word History: A friend is a lover, literally. The relationship between Latin amcus "friend" and am "I love" is clear, as is the relationship between Greek philos "friend" and phile "I love." In English, though, we have to go back a millennium before we see the verb related to friend. At that time, frond, the Old English word for "friend," was simply the present participle of the verb fron, "to love." The Germanic root behind this verb is *fr-, which meant "to like, love, be friendly to." Closely linked to these concepts is that of "peace," and in fact Germanic made a noun from this root, *frithu-, meaning exactly that. Ultimately descended from this noun are the personal names Frederick, "peaceful ruler," and Siegfried, "victory peace." The root also shows up in the name of the Germanic deity Frigg, the goddess of love, who lives on today in the word Friday, "day of Frigg," from an ancient translation of Latin Veneris dis, "day of Venus."



On 22 September 2013 22:38, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
 

-=-You still need a stance whether they talk to you or not right?  This is something I have thought about for over 20 years.-=-


Only the thoughts since you've been unschooling are important here, really.

That's somewhat tongue in cheek, but people come here for radical unschooling discussion, and not for mainstream ideas.  Those are available everywhere around us, but the discussion here, the more it is solidly on the topic of what helps unschooling, is rare and important.

-=-My mom took the "friend" stance with me when I was a teenager.-=-

Pam Sorooshian wrote something about parents being their children's friends:




--
When will our consciences grow so tender that we will act to prevent human misery rather than avenge it?  Eleanor Roosevelt

Nemo risum praebuit, qui ex se coepit - Nobody is laughed at, who laughs at himself. (Seneca)