Questions about Culture/ Freedom to Learn
barbaramatessa
Hi all,
I'm reading Peter Gray's book Freedom to Learn, and I have some questions to pose to the seasoned unschoolers here.
Do you agree with how Gray defines education as cultural transmission?
Gray describes how humans have evolved, through thousands of years of hunter gatherer culture, to learn through play. Unstructured, free play with multi-age groups of children; the freedom to quit being the most fundamental right humans can possess.
Pam S. has said she wants her children to buck the culture AND the counter culture. This makes sense to me, but how do you find your culture/tribe/community?
Do you have support for your lifestyle beyond your immediate family? If so, how have you established that? If not, is having a healthy family culture enough to thrive in a dominator culture?
I have so much I'd like to discuss about this book and the life many of you have lived for so long. This is my second year of adopting unschooling principles; our first year of unschooling independently without a charter. We live in California, USA.
Thank you!
Barbara
I'm reading Peter Gray's book Freedom to Learn, and I have some questions to pose to the seasoned unschoolers here.
Do you agree with how Gray defines education as cultural transmission?
Gray describes how humans have evolved, through thousands of years of hunter gatherer culture, to learn through play. Unstructured, free play with multi-age groups of children; the freedom to quit being the most fundamental right humans can possess.
Pam S. has said she wants her children to buck the culture AND the counter culture. This makes sense to me, but how do you find your culture/tribe/community?
Do you have support for your lifestyle beyond your immediate family? If so, how have you established that? If not, is having a healthy family culture enough to thrive in a dominator culture?
I have so much I'd like to discuss about this book and the life many of you have lived for so long. This is my second year of adopting unschooling principles; our first year of unschooling independently without a charter. We live in California, USA.
Thank you!
Barbara
Jenny Cyphers
***Pam S. has said she wants her children to buck the culture AND the counter culture. This makes sense to me, but how do you find your culture/tribe/community?***
I have a lot of long time friends that I've maintained over the years. They do take maintenance! Some of the people that my kids know are people they've known their whole life. My kids are far apart in age, so many of the connections that my older daughter made are completely different than my younger daughter. My oldest is 19 and has, for years now, made friends through common interests. Many of them she is still friends with from her early teen years. My younger daughter has a handful of really select friends that she's found reasons for staying friends with, either they are kind, or they have things in common, or they simply enjoy each other's company. The internet has played a huge role for all of us!
***Do you have support for your lifestyle beyond your immediate family? If so, how have you established that? If not, is having a healthy family culture enough to thrive in a dominator culture?***
I don't really feel the need to have support for my lifestyle. I know that sounds weird, but it's how it is for us. I have friends with kids in school and friends who homeschool and friends who unschool. I have friends with kids who are grown and friends with tiny babies and friends with no kids at all. The big part of this, was to not throw my "radical" life in people's faces. If there was a reason to continue a friendship, then those reasons were good enough to be kind and thoughtful of the other person and vice versa.
I recently had life changing health issues and I'm on the mend. My "community" of support consisted of a few friends that I've known for 20-27 yrs, a handful of unschooling families, and my immediate and extended family. Many wonderful people helped us financially, to get through some very difficult couple of months. What I was maybe surprised by was the fact that people I've known for so long that I don't always see, were the first ones on call when everything happened. There's a long history there. Those are the people that I became friends with through mutual interests and maintained connection with for at least 20 yrs. My unschooling friends are very new in the whole scheme of things, and 20 yrs down the road I imagine it will be the same thing with many of them.
As I've gotten older, I'm suspicious of people that have only new friends. It's a red flag saying that they might be the kind of person that burns bridges. Establishing new friendships is good, but really maintaining old ones is what makes a community for yourself.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I have a lot of long time friends that I've maintained over the years. They do take maintenance! Some of the people that my kids know are people they've known their whole life. My kids are far apart in age, so many of the connections that my older daughter made are completely different than my younger daughter. My oldest is 19 and has, for years now, made friends through common interests. Many of them she is still friends with from her early teen years. My younger daughter has a handful of really select friends that she's found reasons for staying friends with, either they are kind, or they have things in common, or they simply enjoy each other's company. The internet has played a huge role for all of us!
***Do you have support for your lifestyle beyond your immediate family? If so, how have you established that? If not, is having a healthy family culture enough to thrive in a dominator culture?***
I don't really feel the need to have support for my lifestyle. I know that sounds weird, but it's how it is for us. I have friends with kids in school and friends who homeschool and friends who unschool. I have friends with kids who are grown and friends with tiny babies and friends with no kids at all. The big part of this, was to not throw my "radical" life in people's faces. If there was a reason to continue a friendship, then those reasons were good enough to be kind and thoughtful of the other person and vice versa.
I recently had life changing health issues and I'm on the mend. My "community" of support consisted of a few friends that I've known for 20-27 yrs, a handful of unschooling families, and my immediate and extended family. Many wonderful people helped us financially, to get through some very difficult couple of months. What I was maybe surprised by was the fact that people I've known for so long that I don't always see, were the first ones on call when everything happened. There's a long history there. Those are the people that I became friends with through mutual interests and maintained connection with for at least 20 yrs. My unschooling friends are very new in the whole scheme of things, and 20 yrs down the road I imagine it will be the same thing with many of them.
As I've gotten older, I'm suspicious of people that have only new friends. It's a red flag saying that they might be the kind of person that burns bridges. Establishing new friendships is good, but really maintaining old ones is what makes a community for yourself.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
D. Regan
On 10/08/2013, at 8:09 AM, barbaramatessa wrote:
However, the statement that you've attributed to her makes sense to you.
What is the benefit of bucking the culture? What culture? Is our culture not infinitely multifaceted? Why be so reactionary as to buck anything? Why not make clear-headed choices moment to moment, given your current situation?
What do your children love to do? Do more of that.
Home is a base for exploring and interacting with the world in ways that work for the people in your family. Friendships form. People find themselves part of various groups, by living interesting lives, not by setting out to find a "culture/tribe/community".
:)
Debbie.
>It makes me uneasy to see other people loosely quoted here. I have noticed that 'quotes' like that are often inaccurate. From what I've read of Pam Sorooshian, I can't imagine her saying that.
> Pam S. has said she wants her children to buck the culture AND the counter culture. This makes sense to me, but how do you find your culture/tribe/community?
However, the statement that you've attributed to her makes sense to you.
What is the benefit of bucking the culture? What culture? Is our culture not infinitely multifaceted? Why be so reactionary as to buck anything? Why not make clear-headed choices moment to moment, given your current situation?
What do your children love to do? Do more of that.
Home is a base for exploring and interacting with the world in ways that work for the people in your family. Friendships form. People find themselves part of various groups, by living interesting lives, not by setting out to find a "culture/tribe/community".
:)
Debbie.
barbaramatessa
Sorry, I left out an important piece: "we want our children to be willing to buck the culture,". The rest is here: http://sandradodd.com/pam/ilive
--- In [email protected], "D. Regan" <oregano3@...> wrote:
>
>
> On 10/08/2013, at 8:09 AM, barbaramatessa wrote:
>
> >
> > Pam S. has said she wants her children to buck the culture AND the counter culture. This makes sense to me, but how do you find your culture/tribe/community?
>
> It makes me uneasy to see other people loosely quoted here. I have noticed that 'quotes' like that are often inaccurate. From what I've read of Pam Sorooshian, I can't imagine her saying that.
>
> However, the statement that you've attributed to her makes sense to you.
> What is the benefit of bucking the culture? What culture? Is our culture not infinitely multifaceted? Why be so reactionary as to buck anything? Why not make clear-headed choices moment to moment, given your current situation?
>
> What do your children love to do? Do more of that.
> Home is a base for exploring and interacting with the world in ways that work for the people in your family. Friendships form. People find themselves part of various groups, by living interesting lives, not by setting out to find a "culture/tribe/community".
> :)
> Debbie.
>
Pam Sorooshian
> ***Pam S. has said she wants her children to buck the culture AND theI probably said, and I know I meant, that I want my children to be
> counter culture. This makes sense to me, but how do you find your
> culture/tribe/community?***
*willing* to buck the mainstream culture AND any counterculture too.
I wouldn't want them to buck anything just for the sake of bucking
something.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Aug 9, 2013, at 6:09 PM, barbaramatessa wrote:
The problem with generalities is that they may point out a trend, but they say nothing about an individual's experience.
What does each person in your family need? Have they found ways to get what they need?
Does everyone in your family need a lot of affirmation from outside that their life choices are right? Or is it just you? Or do they want connections with others -- like around interests -- that can be independent of your family's culture?
How do you define thrive?
If the question is reframed about family cultures other than unschooling that are different from the dominant culture, does that give you more insight into what you want to know? What if the dominant culture is mainstream American and the family culture is Indian? Jewish? Vegetarian? What would thriving mean? That the children accept that their family way is better than the culture around them? That each member of the family is happy?
Do your children find the differences between your family and other families disturbing? Interesting? Causing them to question? Do their questions upset you? Why?
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> If not, is having a healthy family culture enough to thrive in a dominator culture?If 10 people say yes and 2 people say no, does it average out to yes?
The problem with generalities is that they may point out a trend, but they say nothing about an individual's experience.
What does each person in your family need? Have they found ways to get what they need?
Does everyone in your family need a lot of affirmation from outside that their life choices are right? Or is it just you? Or do they want connections with others -- like around interests -- that can be independent of your family's culture?
How do you define thrive?
If the question is reframed about family cultures other than unschooling that are different from the dominant culture, does that give you more insight into what you want to know? What if the dominant culture is mainstream American and the family culture is Indian? Jewish? Vegetarian? What would thriving mean? That the children accept that their family way is better than the culture around them? That each member of the family is happy?
Do your children find the differences between your family and other families disturbing? Interesting? Causing them to question? Do their questions upset you? Why?
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Meredith
"barbaramatessa" <bjelwell@...> wrote:
From an unschooling perspective, a better question would be: how does cultural transmission happen in the absence of formal education?
It happens by living in the real world, rather than creating a kind of controlled bubble - where that controlled bubble can just as easily involve saying "we don't have to follow those rules because we're unschoolers" as living with limited access to information.
I don't necessarily want my kids to "buck" anything - I want them to have a light enough load of baggage that they can make thoughtful choices.
Because Ray was homeschooled and schooled before unschooling, plus has a lot of issues with his bio mom, some of his choices come from wanting to buck authority, especially in moments of stress - when he was in school, virtually All his decisions were knee-jerk reactions to perceived authority - which included both the larger culture and the counter-culture. As he deschooled, a great deal of that fell away, but not all of it.
I don't just have One culture/tribe/community, I move between several, all based on my various interests. Another way of asking that question might be: how do adults make friends? By doing things you enjoy and meeting others along the way - sometimes deliberately (going to classes or club meetings or group events) sometimes serendipitously.
My daughter has friends she's made through group campouts, old play groups, the kids of friends, but lately she's been making friends online - friends who share her interest in games and fan-fiction.
Which part of my lifestyle? My working-mom lifestyle? I get that at work ;) and from other breadwinner moms I know irl and online... some of them my relatives. My unschooling lifestyle? Mostly from people I've met online, also periodic conferences and non-cons, but also from local homeschoolers. My queer lifestyle? I keep in touch with old friends. My introvert lifestyle? I hardly need support for that ;)
I think that's a better question asked of school parents, frankly. One of the advantages of unschooling is that families have a lot more flexibility in terms of decision making and kids don't get nearly as much pressure to conform - for that matter, that's true of many homeschool families as well. When you have the ability to make thoughtful choices, the monolithic aspect of The Culture dissipates. It's much easier to say "I want to do this" when you aren't being told on a daily basis "people like you Don't want that".
---Meredith
>> Do you agree with how Gray defines education as cultural transmission?************
From an unschooling perspective, a better question would be: how does cultural transmission happen in the absence of formal education?
It happens by living in the real world, rather than creating a kind of controlled bubble - where that controlled bubble can just as easily involve saying "we don't have to follow those rules because we're unschoolers" as living with limited access to information.
>> Pam S. has said she wants her children to buck the culture AND the counter culture.***********
I don't necessarily want my kids to "buck" anything - I want them to have a light enough load of baggage that they can make thoughtful choices.
Because Ray was homeschooled and schooled before unschooling, plus has a lot of issues with his bio mom, some of his choices come from wanting to buck authority, especially in moments of stress - when he was in school, virtually All his decisions were knee-jerk reactions to perceived authority - which included both the larger culture and the counter-culture. As he deschooled, a great deal of that fell away, but not all of it.
>> This makes sense to me, but how do you find your culture/tribe/community?***********
I don't just have One culture/tribe/community, I move between several, all based on my various interests. Another way of asking that question might be: how do adults make friends? By doing things you enjoy and meeting others along the way - sometimes deliberately (going to classes or club meetings or group events) sometimes serendipitously.
My daughter has friends she's made through group campouts, old play groups, the kids of friends, but lately she's been making friends online - friends who share her interest in games and fan-fiction.
> Do you have support for your lifestyle beyond your immediate family?If so, how have you established that?************
Which part of my lifestyle? My working-mom lifestyle? I get that at work ;) and from other breadwinner moms I know irl and online... some of them my relatives. My unschooling lifestyle? Mostly from people I've met online, also periodic conferences and non-cons, but also from local homeschoolers. My queer lifestyle? I keep in touch with old friends. My introvert lifestyle? I hardly need support for that ;)
>is having a healthy family culture enough to thrive in a dominator culture?**************
I think that's a better question asked of school parents, frankly. One of the advantages of unschooling is that families have a lot more flexibility in terms of decision making and kids don't get nearly as much pressure to conform - for that matter, that's true of many homeschool families as well. When you have the ability to make thoughtful choices, the monolithic aspect of The Culture dissipates. It's much easier to say "I want to do this" when you aren't being told on a daily basis "people like you Don't want that".
---Meredith
Joyce Fetteroll
On Aug 9, 2013, at 6:09 PM, barbaramatessa wrote:
Play seems to be natural to many mammal species. I like this definition at Wikipedia: "we might call it a free activity standing quite consciously outside 'ordinary' life as being 'not serious' but at the same time absorbing the player intensely and utterly." (Johan Huizinga) Puppies and kittens play wrestle. If you've seen this, you know that even young bulls enjoy playing :-)
http://youtu.be/qWvRkUED2HA
So I don't think learning through play has developed from our hunter gatherer culture. I think humans have exploited it in a big way to allow us to learn way more we need to carry on our culture.
The natural inclination to enjoy unstructured free play with multi-age groups (who may not all be sub-adults) is probably inherent in the biology of most social species. (Which doesn't mean every individual enjoys that. Again, generalizations say nothing about an individual.) But that's only a piece of how culture is passed on. If that's all that was available, "society" would probably look a lot like Lord of the Flies ;-)
People learn through absorption. Observation. Hearing. Imitation. Thought and analysis. Trying things. Trying things in new ways. Seeing what happens if. Crafting theories and testing them. Making connections. Conversation. Being corrected. And others. (Some of that is part of play, but people generally think of play is "playing with toys" or "playing games". So the term isn't as clear as it could be.)
I don't understand what he or you mean by "the freedom to quit being the most fundamental right humans can possess." It doesn't seem connected to the previous statements. I've found bringing rights into an argument tends to muddy it. Claiming there are rights injects a supposed "truth" that not everyone has agreed with, often an idea that's confusing to refute since it sounds like the thing itself is a bad thing. That is, yes, being able to quit is a good thing, but I don't see it as a right. I think it's clearer to discuss individual wants, needs and preferences, what people find nurturing for themselves rather than rights.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Gray describes how humans have evolved, through thousands ofIt depends how he defines play.
> years of hunter gatherer culture, to learn through play. Unstructured,
> free play with multi-age groups of children; the freedom to quit
> being the most fundamental right humans can possess.
Play seems to be natural to many mammal species. I like this definition at Wikipedia: "we might call it a free activity standing quite consciously outside 'ordinary' life as being 'not serious' but at the same time absorbing the player intensely and utterly." (Johan Huizinga) Puppies and kittens play wrestle. If you've seen this, you know that even young bulls enjoy playing :-)
http://youtu.be/qWvRkUED2HA
So I don't think learning through play has developed from our hunter gatherer culture. I think humans have exploited it in a big way to allow us to learn way more we need to carry on our culture.
The natural inclination to enjoy unstructured free play with multi-age groups (who may not all be sub-adults) is probably inherent in the biology of most social species. (Which doesn't mean every individual enjoys that. Again, generalizations say nothing about an individual.) But that's only a piece of how culture is passed on. If that's all that was available, "society" would probably look a lot like Lord of the Flies ;-)
People learn through absorption. Observation. Hearing. Imitation. Thought and analysis. Trying things. Trying things in new ways. Seeing what happens if. Crafting theories and testing them. Making connections. Conversation. Being corrected. And others. (Some of that is part of play, but people generally think of play is "playing with toys" or "playing games". So the term isn't as clear as it could be.)
I don't understand what he or you mean by "the freedom to quit being the most fundamental right humans can possess." It doesn't seem connected to the previous statements. I've found bringing rights into an argument tends to muddy it. Claiming there are rights injects a supposed "truth" that not everyone has agreed with, often an idea that's confusing to refute since it sounds like the thing itself is a bad thing. That is, yes, being able to quit is a good thing, but I don't see it as a right. I think it's clearer to discuss individual wants, needs and preferences, what people find nurturing for themselves rather than rights.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=- If not, is having a healthy family culture enough to thrive in a dominator culture?-=-
Is "dominator culture" is too negative a concept, when thinking of your children and the world of your neighborhood, your town, and their future. Try to soften into a more motherly and less defensive and political posture.
-=- is having a healthy family culture enough to thrive-=-
If someone says "no," in this discussion, to that question, then what will you do?
If someone says "yes," in this discussion, to that question, will you be complacent about what is "enough"?
-=-Do you agree with how Gray defines education as cultural transmission?-=-
Peter Gray was mighty excited to find unschoolers so he could mine their existing knowledge of something he was interested in. His interest in unschooling has been mutually beneficial. But he himself is not an unschooler. He keeps using the terms "education" and "teaching," even when he's talking about unschooling. So discussing what Peter Gray thinks isn't as good as discussing what unschoolers know.
-=-Pam S. has said she wants her children to buck the culture AND the counter culture. This makes sense to me, but how do you find your culture/tribe/community?-=-
Your community is going to be the same as your community would have been otherwise, right? People you enjoy being with? People you know and talk to by phone or online, or who visit you, or you meet them places and do things?
I know Pam Sorooshian's family pretty well. They're quite involved in the culture of their community, but each and all by conscious choice.
-=-Do you have support for your lifestyle beyond your immediate family? -=-
This discussion list has supported people in moving more solidly into unschooling for a long time now. Twelve years, nearly. :-)
We can help you, too! But don't think of it as "a lifestyle." Think of it as being closer with your family, focussing on learning, and relationships.
That's where unschooling happens, when you're with your child, at first. Eventually, when you get better at it, the range increases, the "arena" enlarges.
If you get a chance to go to a conference or symposium, you might find some other families you like and can stay in contact with. If you haven't joined a local mailing list or facebook group, that might help (sometimes yes, not always).
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Is "dominator culture" is too negative a concept, when thinking of your children and the world of your neighborhood, your town, and their future. Try to soften into a more motherly and less defensive and political posture.
-=- is having a healthy family culture enough to thrive-=-
If someone says "no," in this discussion, to that question, then what will you do?
If someone says "yes," in this discussion, to that question, will you be complacent about what is "enough"?
-=-Do you agree with how Gray defines education as cultural transmission?-=-
Peter Gray was mighty excited to find unschoolers so he could mine their existing knowledge of something he was interested in. His interest in unschooling has been mutually beneficial. But he himself is not an unschooler. He keeps using the terms "education" and "teaching," even when he's talking about unschooling. So discussing what Peter Gray thinks isn't as good as discussing what unschoolers know.
-=-Pam S. has said she wants her children to buck the culture AND the counter culture. This makes sense to me, but how do you find your culture/tribe/community?-=-
Your community is going to be the same as your community would have been otherwise, right? People you enjoy being with? People you know and talk to by phone or online, or who visit you, or you meet them places and do things?
I know Pam Sorooshian's family pretty well. They're quite involved in the culture of their community, but each and all by conscious choice.
-=-Do you have support for your lifestyle beyond your immediate family? -=-
This discussion list has supported people in moving more solidly into unschooling for a long time now. Twelve years, nearly. :-)
We can help you, too! But don't think of it as "a lifestyle." Think of it as being closer with your family, focussing on learning, and relationships.
That's where unschooling happens, when you're with your child, at first. Eventually, when you get better at it, the range increases, the "arena" enlarges.
If you get a chance to go to a conference or symposium, you might find some other families you like and can stay in contact with. If you haven't joined a local mailing list or facebook group, that might help (sometimes yes, not always).
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Colleen Prieto
****Gray describes how humans have evolved, through thousands of years of hunter gatherer culture, to learn through play****
I think people learn - we can't help it :-)
Learning is important - if we couldn't do it, we'd keep sticking our hands in the hot fire over and over, instead of stopping after the first time ;-)
We learn while playing, sitting and thinking, wandering about� while watching a movie, talking to a friend, working in the garden� even while falling asleep, our brains are still pondering through ideas we encountered during our day. So very often, my 10 year old will be on his way to sleep and will call out "Mom!!! I just realized something amazing!!"
I think many children spend so much time in school and in Structured Activities that they don't have much time to play any more - and I think that's where people like Dr Gray are doing much good, encouraging a return to play and a move away from so much Instruction and Structure.
But do I think we're evolved specifically to learn through play? Personally, no I don't. I think we're evolved to learn. Period.
****Pam S. has said she wants her children to buck the culture AND the counter culture****
(subsequent posts explain that Pam said she wants her children to be *willing* to buck the culture and the counter culture)
I want my son to think for himself - to do things for his own reasons, without basing his decisions on being For or Against the dominant culture, or any sub-culture. And without basing his decisions on Have To's. I think splitting the world up into cultures and sub-cultures is interesting but not necessarily productive :-) People making decisions based on who they are, and on their understanding of the world and their wants, desires, and interests within the world, seems more fun and fabulous to me than people making decisions based on what they presume certain segments of our Culture would want them to do :-)
****how do you find your culture/tribe/community?****
Over the years, we've met people we enjoy being around. Some we've encountered because we live near each other, or work together. Some who also homeschool or unschool. Some who were originally Friends Of Friends, and who now we count as friends of our own. Some with whom we share an interest or two - for example, we've been into birding for a while now, and in the past few months, we've started encountering other birders while we're out and about - haven't met anyone I'd consider a Friend yet, but I wouldn't be surprised if eventually a friendship or two develops.
I don't have a need for everyone who is my friend to live like I do :-) and neither, it seems, do my husband or our son. Life is more interesting when there are a variety of people and perspectives involved and around. My opinion :-)
****Do you have support for your lifestyle beyond your immediate family?****
Interesting question. I don't know that we have "support for our lifestyle" any more than we support anyone Else's lifestyle.
I do know that we have people who accept us for who we are and how we are - and that we afford other people with whom we associate the same respect. "Live and let live" can be a sort of a cliche, but for our particular family, it has a lot of relevance and well describes how we relate to others, and how we appreciate others relating to us.
And I know that people who want to Tell us how to live and how to be, or tell us what they don't like about us or about how we live, are not people we choose to hang out with or count as friends :-)
****is having a healthy family culture enough to thrive in a dominator culture?****
I googled "dominator culture" as it wasn't a phrase I'd heard before :-)
I don't think I like to think of myself as living in a "dominator culture" as, though it may be the case, it seems more of an antagonistic way of looking at the world around me than would make me feel particularly happy :-)
Which doesn't mean I want to deny Reality and live in a lovely land of puffy clouds and smiley faces :-)
But it does mean that I would rather not focus on ideas like this:
"Dominator culture teaches all of us that the core of our identity is defined by the will to dominate and control others." ~ bell hooks
And that I would rather rejoice in the fact that, in my particular unschooling household, no one is trying to Dominate or Control anyone else - no one is trying to Make others do things, or think things, or have things - no one is trying to be in In Charge in that sort of icky way :-)
Instead, in my house, my husband and I both try very hard to create an environment where each one of the three of us is free to Be and Think and Do in accordance with who we are as individuals. Control and dominance might be forces to contend with in the outer world, but at home, they're not welcome :-)
Colleen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I think people learn - we can't help it :-)
Learning is important - if we couldn't do it, we'd keep sticking our hands in the hot fire over and over, instead of stopping after the first time ;-)
We learn while playing, sitting and thinking, wandering about� while watching a movie, talking to a friend, working in the garden� even while falling asleep, our brains are still pondering through ideas we encountered during our day. So very often, my 10 year old will be on his way to sleep and will call out "Mom!!! I just realized something amazing!!"
I think many children spend so much time in school and in Structured Activities that they don't have much time to play any more - and I think that's where people like Dr Gray are doing much good, encouraging a return to play and a move away from so much Instruction and Structure.
But do I think we're evolved specifically to learn through play? Personally, no I don't. I think we're evolved to learn. Period.
****Pam S. has said she wants her children to buck the culture AND the counter culture****
(subsequent posts explain that Pam said she wants her children to be *willing* to buck the culture and the counter culture)
I want my son to think for himself - to do things for his own reasons, without basing his decisions on being For or Against the dominant culture, or any sub-culture. And without basing his decisions on Have To's. I think splitting the world up into cultures and sub-cultures is interesting but not necessarily productive :-) People making decisions based on who they are, and on their understanding of the world and their wants, desires, and interests within the world, seems more fun and fabulous to me than people making decisions based on what they presume certain segments of our Culture would want them to do :-)
****how do you find your culture/tribe/community?****
Over the years, we've met people we enjoy being around. Some we've encountered because we live near each other, or work together. Some who also homeschool or unschool. Some who were originally Friends Of Friends, and who now we count as friends of our own. Some with whom we share an interest or two - for example, we've been into birding for a while now, and in the past few months, we've started encountering other birders while we're out and about - haven't met anyone I'd consider a Friend yet, but I wouldn't be surprised if eventually a friendship or two develops.
I don't have a need for everyone who is my friend to live like I do :-) and neither, it seems, do my husband or our son. Life is more interesting when there are a variety of people and perspectives involved and around. My opinion :-)
****Do you have support for your lifestyle beyond your immediate family?****
Interesting question. I don't know that we have "support for our lifestyle" any more than we support anyone Else's lifestyle.
I do know that we have people who accept us for who we are and how we are - and that we afford other people with whom we associate the same respect. "Live and let live" can be a sort of a cliche, but for our particular family, it has a lot of relevance and well describes how we relate to others, and how we appreciate others relating to us.
And I know that people who want to Tell us how to live and how to be, or tell us what they don't like about us or about how we live, are not people we choose to hang out with or count as friends :-)
****is having a healthy family culture enough to thrive in a dominator culture?****
I googled "dominator culture" as it wasn't a phrase I'd heard before :-)
I don't think I like to think of myself as living in a "dominator culture" as, though it may be the case, it seems more of an antagonistic way of looking at the world around me than would make me feel particularly happy :-)
Which doesn't mean I want to deny Reality and live in a lovely land of puffy clouds and smiley faces :-)
But it does mean that I would rather not focus on ideas like this:
"Dominator culture teaches all of us that the core of our identity is defined by the will to dominate and control others." ~ bell hooks
And that I would rather rejoice in the fact that, in my particular unschooling household, no one is trying to Dominate or Control anyone else - no one is trying to Make others do things, or think things, or have things - no one is trying to be in In Charge in that sort of icky way :-)
Instead, in my house, my husband and I both try very hard to create an environment where each one of the three of us is free to Be and Think and Do in accordance with who we are as individuals. Control and dominance might be forces to contend with in the outer world, but at home, they're not welcome :-)
Colleen
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Sandra Dodd
Sorry!! "Is "dominator culture" is too negative a concept," Is it is? :-)
Meant to say "Dominator culture" is...
But had started off saying who-knows-what. Sorry for the garble.
http://sandradodd.com/negativity might show what I was thinking, in part.
Sandra
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Meant to say "Dominator culture" is...
But had started off saying who-knows-what. Sorry for the garble.
http://sandradodd.com/negativity might show what I was thinking, in part.
Sandra
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Pam Laricchia
<< Gray describes how humans have evolved, through thousands of years of hunter gatherer culture, to learn through play. Unstructured, free play with
multi-age groups of children; the freedom to quit being the most fundamental right humans can possess. >>
Gray is definitely coming from a different place than unschoolers, but it's interesting. I wrote a bit about Gray's ideas on play and how I see them
relating to unschooling for one of my recent talks. Here's the relevant excerpt:
***
Experienced unschooling parents have invested, and continue to invest, much time and effort into developing and supporting strong relationships with
each of their children. Why is it worth it?
First and foremost, as we just discussed, it creates a superlative learning environment.
Yet over the years I've discovered so many other wonderful benefits. My kids have developed good relationship and communication skills and gained an
appreciation for the breadth of human needs and motivations. They've seen first hand the benefits of helping those around them meet their needs, and
developed solid analytical skills that help them sort through their sometimes tangled goals. Not only did focusing on strong relationships help them
better understand themselves, it helped them become more understanding of others. It helped them develop empathy.
As an interesting aside to my observations surrounding this, I recently read Peter Gray's book, Free to Learn, and in it he discusses how, since the
late 70s, studies based on the interpersonal reactivity index have revealed a significant rise in narcissism coupled with a significant decline in
empathy. He makes an interesting point, that this relates to a decline in play. He defines play as "nature's way of teaching children how to solve
their own problems, control their impulses, modulate their emotions, see from others' perspectives, negotiate differences, and get along with others
as equals." His play is our unschooling days.
He believes that ultimately it boils down to the freedom to quit. If children want to play together but any of them can choose to leave at any time,
then they are all motivated to negotiate so that the game is enjoyable enough that most children choose to stay and play. In that situation,
understanding others' perspectives is a very useful skill that naturally develops over time and exposure to that environment. Unschoolers create that
environment at home, where family members are free to say "that doesn't work for me," knowing that the others will do their best to understand their
perspective and incorporate their needs. More generally to me, this freedom to quit is the freedom of choice---which unschoolers encourage in spades.
The challenge in society is that over the last 30-odd years organized play has grown to replace free play. Nowadays most play is hosted by adults, and
parents insist that their children don't quit in the name of "commitment", so there really is no choice. This means that there is no driving
motivation to consider the needs of the participants. Even good old play time is often compromised by parents insisting, even after disagreements,
that their kids continue to play together; that they work it out with their friends right now in the name of "getting along". That approach does
nothing to encourage developing the skills that actually help people learn to get along. Giving individuals the freedom of choice to play or to quit
does that so much better.
***
Pam L
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multi-age groups of children; the freedom to quit being the most fundamental right humans can possess. >>
Gray is definitely coming from a different place than unschoolers, but it's interesting. I wrote a bit about Gray's ideas on play and how I see them
relating to unschooling for one of my recent talks. Here's the relevant excerpt:
***
Experienced unschooling parents have invested, and continue to invest, much time and effort into developing and supporting strong relationships with
each of their children. Why is it worth it?
First and foremost, as we just discussed, it creates a superlative learning environment.
Yet over the years I've discovered so many other wonderful benefits. My kids have developed good relationship and communication skills and gained an
appreciation for the breadth of human needs and motivations. They've seen first hand the benefits of helping those around them meet their needs, and
developed solid analytical skills that help them sort through their sometimes tangled goals. Not only did focusing on strong relationships help them
better understand themselves, it helped them become more understanding of others. It helped them develop empathy.
As an interesting aside to my observations surrounding this, I recently read Peter Gray's book, Free to Learn, and in it he discusses how, since the
late 70s, studies based on the interpersonal reactivity index have revealed a significant rise in narcissism coupled with a significant decline in
empathy. He makes an interesting point, that this relates to a decline in play. He defines play as "nature's way of teaching children how to solve
their own problems, control their impulses, modulate their emotions, see from others' perspectives, negotiate differences, and get along with others
as equals." His play is our unschooling days.
He believes that ultimately it boils down to the freedom to quit. If children want to play together but any of them can choose to leave at any time,
then they are all motivated to negotiate so that the game is enjoyable enough that most children choose to stay and play. In that situation,
understanding others' perspectives is a very useful skill that naturally develops over time and exposure to that environment. Unschoolers create that
environment at home, where family members are free to say "that doesn't work for me," knowing that the others will do their best to understand their
perspective and incorporate their needs. More generally to me, this freedom to quit is the freedom of choice---which unschoolers encourage in spades.
The challenge in society is that over the last 30-odd years organized play has grown to replace free play. Nowadays most play is hosted by adults, and
parents insist that their children don't quit in the name of "commitment", so there really is no choice. This means that there is no driving
motivation to consider the needs of the participants. Even good old play time is often compromised by parents insisting, even after disagreements,
that their kids continue to play together; that they work it out with their friends right now in the name of "getting along". That approach does
nothing to encourage developing the skills that actually help people learn to get along. Giving individuals the freedom of choice to play or to quit
does that so much better.
***
Pam L
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Sandra Dodd
-=-More generally to me, this freedom to quit is the freedom of choice---which unschoolers encourage in spades.-=-
Pat Farenga said he was speaking to a huge homeschooling conference in the southeastern U.S. once, in the 1990's. In the course of his talk, on unschooling, he said it was crucial that a child be able to say no, and he said half the people in the audience of MANY HUNDREDS stood up and walked out.
Richard Prystowsky (in related very-old news) was at a general homeschooling (not just unschooling) conference, and was speaking on writing (because he taught writing at a university, and was an unschooling dad). He began to do a guided-imagery exercise, to help them with relaxation and envisiniong things with their sense or something, and someone got up, left, and went and got a conference organizer to get Richard to STOP, because he was hypnotizing people or getting them to meditate, or whatever the complaint was. It was unGodly.
Those two stories involve the preponderance of fundamentalist Christians in homeschooling in the U.S. 15-20 years ago. There might still be lots of them, but conferences have branched out so that there's not as much mixing and exposure.
The reason I mention this is that the model away from which unschoolers are sometimes moving is that adults say what to do, and kids do it.
Some unschoolers, when that is their starting place, move to the opposite corner of the room, and think that the new way to be is that kids do what they want to do, and adults say nothing.
Unschooling is in the more sensible middle of the room. :-)
Sandra
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Pat Farenga said he was speaking to a huge homeschooling conference in the southeastern U.S. once, in the 1990's. In the course of his talk, on unschooling, he said it was crucial that a child be able to say no, and he said half the people in the audience of MANY HUNDREDS stood up and walked out.
Richard Prystowsky (in related very-old news) was at a general homeschooling (not just unschooling) conference, and was speaking on writing (because he taught writing at a university, and was an unschooling dad). He began to do a guided-imagery exercise, to help them with relaxation and envisiniong things with their sense or something, and someone got up, left, and went and got a conference organizer to get Richard to STOP, because he was hypnotizing people or getting them to meditate, or whatever the complaint was. It was unGodly.
Those two stories involve the preponderance of fundamentalist Christians in homeschooling in the U.S. 15-20 years ago. There might still be lots of them, but conferences have branched out so that there's not as much mixing and exposure.
The reason I mention this is that the model away from which unschoolers are sometimes moving is that adults say what to do, and kids do it.
Some unschoolers, when that is their starting place, move to the opposite corner of the room, and think that the new way to be is that kids do what they want to do, and adults say nothing.
Unschooling is in the more sensible middle of the room. :-)
Sandra
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Pam Laricchia
<< Some unschoolers, when that is their starting place, move to the opposite corner of the room, and think that the new way to be is that kids do what
they want to do, and adults say nothing. Unschooling is in the more sensible middle of the room. >>
So true! That was the rest of the talk. ;-)
Choice is SO much more than "do whatever strikes your fancy, without any thought or consideration." That's not choice, that's just random action.
Pam L
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they want to do, and adults say nothing. Unschooling is in the more sensible middle of the room. >>
So true! That was the rest of the talk. ;-)
Choice is SO much more than "do whatever strikes your fancy, without any thought or consideration." That's not choice, that's just random action.
Pam L
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sheeboo2
----I googled "dominator culture" as it wasn't a phrase I'd heard before :-)-----
The term is "dominant culture," and is typically used in cultural and postcolonial studies to define the culture of those in power vs the indigenous or minority culture.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominant_culture
Brie
The term is "dominant culture," and is typically used in cultural and postcolonial studies to define the culture of those in power vs the indigenous or minority culture.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominant_culture
Brie
barbaramatessa
> > Do you have support for your lifestyle beyond your immediate family?If so, how have you established that?Merideth, as an aside, I need support for my introvert lifestyle! I realized I had been defining myself, as an introvert, by what I was NOT (an extrovert). I knew that extroverts were energized by people, and I was not. I needed downtime. Yet, downtime didn't necessarily energize me. After stumbling across Nancy Okerlund's website, I became conscious that I am energized by ideas! This was an empowering concept for me. Okerlund is a thriving introvert, and she writes about her experiences in such an honest, intimate way. Reading her work is "support" for that part of my lifestyle. http://introvertenergy.com/
> ************
>
> Which part of my lifestyle? My working-mom lifestyle? I get that at work ;) and from other breadwinner moms I know irl and online... some of them my relatives. My unschooling lifestyle? Mostly from people I've met online, also periodic conferences and non-cons, but also from local homeschoolers. My queer lifestyle? I keep in touch with old friends. My introvert lifestyle? I hardly need support for that ;)**************
>I LOVE this:
> >is having a healthy family culture enough to thrive in a dominator culture?
> **************
********************
When you have the
ability to make thoughtful choices, the monolithic aspect of The Culture
dissipates. *********************
Our culture is becoming more queer-friendly, but people continue to need support to thrive as gays and lesbians. A lot of support!
I am very interested in the idea of culture, and how culture changes. My curiosity was piqued in anthropology classes, and I'm especially interested how indigenous cultures raise children and live in a more egalitarian manner.
Gray's description of hunter-gatherer culture and their non-coercive lifestyle made me wish, desperately, I knew more people who wanted to raise children with the freedom to choose.
In an hour, I will attend a book club with a few local unschoolers to discuss Gray's book. I wanted to see what my online mentors had to say about Gray's ideas! He does go on and on about the Sudbury school. Unschooling is so much better, because of the relationship building and the devotion we can give to our children's interests. Still, it would be ideal to have a tribe/community!
The more I see my son thrive, the more confident I become in these principles. Yet, I still wish for wider changes.
Sandra Dodd
I was not typing well this morning. I'm sorry.
"to help them with relaxation and envisioning things with their senses or something, and someone got up, left, and went and got a conference organizer to get Richard to STOP, because he was hypnotizing people or getting them to meditate, or whatever the complaint was."
It's good to appreciate where we are, with our children, and realize that we don't need to be where other families are with their.
http://sandradodd.com/parentingpeacefully
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"to help them with relaxation and envisioning things with their senses or something, and someone got up, left, and went and got a conference organizer to get Richard to STOP, because he was hypnotizing people or getting them to meditate, or whatever the complaint was."
It's good to appreciate where we are, with our children, and realize that we don't need to be where other families are with their.
http://sandradodd.com/parentingpeacefully
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Sandra Dodd
-=-The term is "dominant culture," and is typically used in cultural and postcolonial studies to define the culture of those in power vs the indigenous or minority culture. -=-
That's a term, and it's the more commonly discussed term when discussing departure from the norm. But "dominator culture" is a different term.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominator_culture
It's not worth dicussing much, but it might be that the original poster did mean what she wrote.
Sandra
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That's a term, and it's the more commonly discussed term when discussing departure from the norm. But "dominator culture" is a different term.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominator_culture
It's not worth dicussing much, but it might be that the original poster did mean what she wrote.
Sandra
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barbaramatessa
I did mean Dominator culture, and it is a negative term. Its cultural counterpoint is an egalitarian/ partnership culture, what we do at home.
Sometimes it feels like enough, how we live our lives at home. Sometimes I feel lonely, and frustrated that other homeschoolers we meet don't share my views. I get fits of newbie zeal (Sandra's church metaphor was so apt) and I want to convert everyone to unschooling. That might be the vestiges of control I'm learning to let go of.
Sandra said: "Some people want "the unschooling community" to be their new church,".
I think that sentiment was floating around today at the small, local group that met to discuss Peter Gray's book. Ironically, I think we were all atheists, or agnostics, but we batted around the idea of a regular meeting. Wouldn't it be nice if we had an unschooling one-stop shop? Some sort of multi-age, free play co-op where kids could choose how to spend their time, inside or out, with computers, games and helpful adults around? But looking at our various schedules, we couldn't find a time to meet until October. Clearly, we all had outside interests and friendships that already filled our lives.
It was helpful for me to read that many of your friendships are not with unschoolers, but with others who share your and your kids' interests.
Thank you for the thoughtful responses. I'm pondering those questions, and am deeply appreciative of all that you do.
Barbara
Sometimes it feels like enough, how we live our lives at home. Sometimes I feel lonely, and frustrated that other homeschoolers we meet don't share my views. I get fits of newbie zeal (Sandra's church metaphor was so apt) and I want to convert everyone to unschooling. That might be the vestiges of control I'm learning to let go of.
Sandra said: "Some people want "the unschooling community" to be their new church,".
I think that sentiment was floating around today at the small, local group that met to discuss Peter Gray's book. Ironically, I think we were all atheists, or agnostics, but we batted around the idea of a regular meeting. Wouldn't it be nice if we had an unschooling one-stop shop? Some sort of multi-age, free play co-op where kids could choose how to spend their time, inside or out, with computers, games and helpful adults around? But looking at our various schedules, we couldn't find a time to meet until October. Clearly, we all had outside interests and friendships that already filled our lives.
It was helpful for me to read that many of your friendships are not with unschoolers, but with others who share your and your kids' interests.
Thank you for the thoughtful responses. I'm pondering those questions, and am deeply appreciative of all that you do.
Barbara
D. Regan
On 11/08/2013, at 1:33 PM, barbaramatessa wrote:
Unschooling doesn't present parents with a formula, such that they can then watch unschooling unfold. It needs to be actively done, lived. For that to happen, it needs parents to open doors, work around obstacles, use their ever-growing knowledge of the world and their kids, to enrich their lives with interesting opportunities; things that will delight them. Those things can be found anywhere. It's good to keep possibilities open - you might find something awesome, that you'd have missed if you were limiting where you'd look, or thinking that "an unschooling one-stop shop" had it all.
:)
Debbie.
>For my family, the big wide world is a pretty spectacular 'one-stop shop' ;) A subset of the world with fences and signs pointing to 'unschoolers only' is of limited use, when we can have so much more. Children are learning about the world and the world is a good place in which to do that - if they have some caring and curious older people to support them as they explore.
> Wouldn't it be nice if we had an unschooling one-stop shop? Some sort of multi-age, free play co-op where kids could choose how to spend their time, inside or out, with computers, games and helpful adults around?
Unschooling doesn't present parents with a formula, such that they can then watch unschooling unfold. It needs to be actively done, lived. For that to happen, it needs parents to open doors, work around obstacles, use their ever-growing knowledge of the world and their kids, to enrich their lives with interesting opportunities; things that will delight them. Those things can be found anywhere. It's good to keep possibilities open - you might find something awesome, that you'd have missed if you were limiting where you'd look, or thinking that "an unschooling one-stop shop" had it all.
:)
Debbie.
Sandra Dodd
-=-For my family, the big wide world is a pretty spectacular 'one-stop shop' ;) -=-
Nice, Debbie! :-)
Sometimes people can get stuck at home, and stuck in repetition. Plan to be out, even if it's in seemingly mundane ways. Go to a flower shop. Have a picnic. Look for local sculpture. Take photos of windmills. Something different you haven't done, cheap, local, and let it lead to something else, connections, ideas, things to look up on Google, movies to watch.
Letting connections flow in small ways can lead to big thoughts. And sometimes the thoughts don't come until later, but ther eare more experiences and images and knowledge to build them on.
Be soft, and hopeful, and open.
When parents are stiff and negative, flow is blocked.
http://sandradodd.com/wonder
Sandra
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Nice, Debbie! :-)
Sometimes people can get stuck at home, and stuck in repetition. Plan to be out, even if it's in seemingly mundane ways. Go to a flower shop. Have a picnic. Look for local sculpture. Take photos of windmills. Something different you haven't done, cheap, local, and let it lead to something else, connections, ideas, things to look up on Google, movies to watch.
Letting connections flow in small ways can lead to big thoughts. And sometimes the thoughts don't come until later, but ther eare more experiences and images and knowledge to build them on.
Be soft, and hopeful, and open.
When parents are stiff and negative, flow is blocked.
http://sandradodd.com/wonder
Sandra
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Deborah Cunefare
On Aug 11, 2013, at 12:39 AM, [email protected] wrote:
I like a lot of his ideas. But I think it's important to note that when he writes/speaks about "unschooling" he is speaking specifically about Sudbury type schools and NOT unschooling as we are discussing it here. He really doesn't much agree with many of the ideas that are central to this discussion.
His ideal model has parents only peripherally involved in their children's daily learning.
Deborah in IL
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> In an hour, I will attend a book club with a few local unschoolers to discuss Gray's book. I wanted to see what my online mentors had to say about Gray's ideas! He does go on and on about the Sudbury school. Unschooling is so much better, because of the relationship building and the devotion we can give to our children's interests. Still, it would be ideal to have a tribe/community!I've listened to Peter Gray speak several times at conferences, and I've briefly spoken to him after one of those talks.
I like a lot of his ideas. But I think it's important to note that when he writes/speaks about "unschooling" he is speaking specifically about Sudbury type schools and NOT unschooling as we are discussing it here. He really doesn't much agree with many of the ideas that are central to this discussion.
His ideal model has parents only peripherally involved in their children's daily learning.
Deborah in IL
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BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
Interesting Deb because he does include them in his articles and studies.
Alex Polikowsky
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Alex Polikowsky
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