Appropriating the word Unschooling
Joyce Fetteroll
There's been a dust up on a local list. It's been slowly filling with people who stretch the definition of unschooling to the breaking point. I couldn't understand their desire to defend being on the list. It seemed to go beyond territorial.
Then someone posted this:
And it struck me that "do what works for us" homeschoolers don't have a phrase that they identify with. Maybe "home schooling" sounds too much like doing school at home. So when they look for a group that sounds something like what they want, the only specialty groups they're likely to find are Unschooling and Christian ;-)
There used to be the term eclectic home learning. I'd say it perfectly describes what these parents want. But it never got big. Maybe it was too identified with Christians? (It was Barb .... can't remember her last name, I think, who coined the term. I remember she wanted it to be inclusive, but maybe there were too many Christians around her that anyone else felt uncomfortable.)
That term needs revived so the "do what works for my family" folks can stop thinking they can use the word "unschooling" to describe what they're doing ;-)
Joyce
Then someone posted this:
> "In discussions I have had with other mothers, IShe doesn't identify as an unschooler but she and others are defending their "I just do what works for her and for our little family" approach on the unschooling list. Then when the unschoolers want to confine the talk to unschooling, they get upset.
> have learned that by not following any curriculum and organizing around my
> daughters interests I really have my foot in both [homeschool and unschool] camps. To be honest, I could
> care less about any label. I just do what works for her and for our little
> family."
And it struck me that "do what works for us" homeschoolers don't have a phrase that they identify with. Maybe "home schooling" sounds too much like doing school at home. So when they look for a group that sounds something like what they want, the only specialty groups they're likely to find are Unschooling and Christian ;-)
There used to be the term eclectic home learning. I'd say it perfectly describes what these parents want. But it never got big. Maybe it was too identified with Christians? (It was Barb .... can't remember her last name, I think, who coined the term. I remember she wanted it to be inclusive, but maybe there were too many Christians around her that anyone else felt uncomfortable.)
That term needs revived so the "do what works for my family" folks can stop thinking they can use the word "unschooling" to describe what they're doing ;-)
Joyce
Sandra Dodd
I think they can use the word. We don't have courts and lawyers and process servers to ask them to cease and desist or... what?
http://sandradodd.com/unschool/vsRelaxedHomeschooling
I have this collection.
I thought "eclectic" was still in use.
It's mentioned several times on my site, but my site is becoming "the historic record" in some ways.
http://sandradodd.com/unschool/theterm
Maybe we could call that "plain unschooling" or "basic unschooling." :-)
Sandra
http://sandradodd.com/unschool/vsRelaxedHomeschooling
I have this collection.
I thought "eclectic" was still in use.
It's mentioned several times on my site, but my site is becoming "the historic record" in some ways.
http://sandradodd.com/unschool/theterm
Maybe we could call that "plain unschooling" or "basic unschooling." :-)
Sandra
Joyce Fetteroll
On Mar 10, 2013, at 11:28 AM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
It's not a matter of stopping them, but if you know why someone's doing something it's easier to come up with alternatives for them.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I thought "eclectic" was still in use.I thought so too. But what Google turns up is a couple of pages, a handful of blogs, but the Christian flavor is pretty evident. As far as I can see there are no lists. It seems to be more a term people are using rather than a cohesive idea people can gather around and identify with.
It's not a matter of stopping them, but if you know why someone's doing something it's easier to come up with alternatives for them.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
D. Regan
We've just had a very similar dust up on one of Australia's best unschooling lists. Lots of accusations of us being anal and rigid. It started after some comments about "structure", which seems to be a euphemism for schoolish programs:-
-=- "Unschooling" doesn't preclude any structure and if your child enjoys it, and benefits from it, then why wouldn't you do it? -=-
-=- There are some things best learned through a structured program and many unschooled children choose to follow them for various subjects -=-
Some of us have been trying to delineate the difference between unschooling and eclectic homeschooling, but lots of the eclectic people seem to identify as unschoolers. At the same time they reject some of the key features of unschooling as we talk about it here - natural learning being fundamental, for example.
In the most recent discussion, one of the eclectic people referred to what I would call unschoolers, as "very radical unschoolers". The Pythonesque term made me chuckle, but I think it also points to their appropriating of the term unschooling to describe themselves.
She also said "I really don't think there would be many people who freely unschool more than I do." It seems that being the 'unschoolingest' ;) is desirable. But what they do with their kids is the mix that I think is best referred to as eclectic homeschooling.
Perhaps "eclectic" has connotations of being wishy washy and formless, putting people off identifying with it. Unschoolers are enthusiastic and have conferences and are an identifiable group, like an active political party. Eclectic homeschoolers don't have any of that, as far as I'm aware. For some people, the appeal of belonging to a group is strong, especially when they are not part of the mainstream. An identifiable subculture.
I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of people who call themselves unschoolers in my country, look to educational outcomes for their children.
Shifting of the meaning of labels happens in politics, religion and other areas. Maybe something like that will happen with 'unschooling'. I hope we're not left with "Very Radical Unschooling", though!
Debbie.
-=- "Unschooling" doesn't preclude any structure and if your child enjoys it, and benefits from it, then why wouldn't you do it? -=-
-=- There are some things best learned through a structured program and many unschooled children choose to follow them for various subjects -=-
Some of us have been trying to delineate the difference between unschooling and eclectic homeschooling, but lots of the eclectic people seem to identify as unschoolers. At the same time they reject some of the key features of unschooling as we talk about it here - natural learning being fundamental, for example.
In the most recent discussion, one of the eclectic people referred to what I would call unschoolers, as "very radical unschoolers". The Pythonesque term made me chuckle, but I think it also points to their appropriating of the term unschooling to describe themselves.
She also said "I really don't think there would be many people who freely unschool more than I do." It seems that being the 'unschoolingest' ;) is desirable. But what they do with their kids is the mix that I think is best referred to as eclectic homeschooling.
Perhaps "eclectic" has connotations of being wishy washy and formless, putting people off identifying with it. Unschoolers are enthusiastic and have conferences and are an identifiable group, like an active political party. Eclectic homeschoolers don't have any of that, as far as I'm aware. For some people, the appeal of belonging to a group is strong, especially when they are not part of the mainstream. An identifiable subculture.
I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of people who call themselves unschoolers in my country, look to educational outcomes for their children.
Shifting of the meaning of labels happens in politics, religion and other areas. Maybe something like that will happen with 'unschooling'. I hope we're not left with "Very Radical Unschooling", though!
Debbie.
On 11/03/2013, at 1:30 AM, Joyce Fetteroll wrote:
> There's been a dust up on a local list. It's been slowly filling with people who stretch the definition of unschooling to the breaking point. I couldn't understand their desire to defend being on the list.
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Cara Barlow
I'm involved in the incident Joyce's referring to. One thing I figured
out this morning is that (I believe) part of it has to do with Pat
Farenga, who promotes himself a an unschooling expert and lives in the
area.
This is from the FAQ on his blog. No wonder they're confused.
*****
What Is Unschooling?
This is also known as interest driven, child-led, natural, organic,
eclectic, or self-directed learning. Lately, the term "unschooling"
has come to be associated with the type of homeschooling that doesn't
use a fixed curriculum. When pressed, I define unschooling as allowing
children as much freedom to learn in the world, as their parents can
comfortably bear. The advantage of this method is that it doesn't
require you, the parent, to become someone else, i.e. a professional
teacher pouring knowledge into child-vessels on a planned basis.
Instead you live and learn together, pursuing questions and interests
as they arise and using conventional schooling on an "on demand"
basis, if at all. This is the way we learn before going to school and
the way we learn when we leave school and enter the world of work.
<http://patfarenga.squarespace.com/frequently-asked-questions-abo/>
out this morning is that (I believe) part of it has to do with Pat
Farenga, who promotes himself a an unschooling expert and lives in the
area.
This is from the FAQ on his blog. No wonder they're confused.
*****
What Is Unschooling?
This is also known as interest driven, child-led, natural, organic,
eclectic, or self-directed learning. Lately, the term "unschooling"
has come to be associated with the type of homeschooling that doesn't
use a fixed curriculum. When pressed, I define unschooling as allowing
children as much freedom to learn in the world, as their parents can
comfortably bear. The advantage of this method is that it doesn't
require you, the parent, to become someone else, i.e. a professional
teacher pouring knowledge into child-vessels on a planned basis.
Instead you live and learn together, pursuing questions and interests
as they arise and using conventional schooling on an "on demand"
basis, if at all. This is the way we learn before going to school and
the way we learn when we leave school and enter the world of work.
<http://patfarenga.squarespace.com/frequently-asked-questions-abo/>
Sandra Dodd
-=-Lately, the term "unschooling"
has come to be associated with the type of homeschooling that doesn't
use a fixed curriculum. -=-
He's been saying that for years, but John Holt never ever not even a little advocated the use of a curriculum.
But when John Holt was living, he was discussing learning theory because he had taught, and been involved in correspondence with lots of educators and sympathizers.
Pat worked in the bookshop shipping things and doing physical things (I don't know what else, probably helping mail GWS when it was more like a newsletter than a magazine, but Pat wasn't a teacher and hadn't taught).
Later, for all the acceptance of being called an expert and billing himself as John Holt's heir, he wasn't apparently able to describe unschooling to his wife in such a way that it could work well.
I'm a little cranky about all that, but I rarely think of it, because I'm pretty busy doing what I've always done since before I met any of those folks.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
has come to be associated with the type of homeschooling that doesn't
use a fixed curriculum. -=-
He's been saying that for years, but John Holt never ever not even a little advocated the use of a curriculum.
But when John Holt was living, he was discussing learning theory because he had taught, and been involved in correspondence with lots of educators and sympathizers.
Pat worked in the bookshop shipping things and doing physical things (I don't know what else, probably helping mail GWS when it was more like a newsletter than a magazine, but Pat wasn't a teacher and hadn't taught).
Later, for all the acceptance of being called an expert and billing himself as John Holt's heir, he wasn't apparently able to describe unschooling to his wife in such a way that it could work well.
I'm a little cranky about all that, but I rarely think of it, because I'm pretty busy doing what I've always done since before I met any of those folks.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
lucy.web
On 10 Mar 2013, at 20:31, Cara Barlow <carabarlow@...> wrote:
Lucy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> This is from the FAQ on his blog. No wonder they're confused: � "When pressed, I define unschooling as allowingOne of the things that I have found so very, very valuable about this list, and the various websites that are linked from here, is that I have been encouraged and challenged to move far beyond what I thought I could "comfortably bear", and my family are so much better for it.
> children as much freedom to learn in the world, as their parents can comfortably bear. � "
Lucy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
chris ester
On Sun, Mar 10, 2013 at 3:31 PM, Cara Barlow <carabarlow@...> wrote
about the parent and their level of comfort. Focusing on what the parent
can 'bear' at the possible expense of the child irks me. Never mind that
he generally lacks clarity.
Thank you Sandra, et al. for the clarity that you provide. The talk of
partnership and joy and fun with clearly stated principles in mind is
challenging to the status quo and stretches many of us, but it is certainly
much more helpful.
chris
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>What bothers me most about the part that I highlighted is that it is all
> *****
> What Is Unschooling?
>
> This is also known as interest driven, child-led, natural, organic,
> eclectic, or self-directed learning. Lately, the term "unschooling"
> has come to be associated with the type of homeschooling that doesn't
> use a fixed curriculum. When pressed, I define unschooling as allowing
> children as much freedom to learn in the world, as their parents can
> comfortably bear. The advantage of this method is that it doesn't
> require you, the parent, to become someone else, i.e. a professional
> teacher pouring knowledge into child-vessels on a planned basis.
> Instead you live and learn together, pursuing questions and interests
> as they arise and using conventional schooling on an "on demand"
> basis, if at all. This is the way we learn before going to school and
> the way we learn when we leave school and enter the world of work.
>
> <http://patfarenga.squarespace.com/frequently-asked-questions-abo/>
>
about the parent and their level of comfort. Focusing on what the parent
can 'bear' at the possible expense of the child irks me. Never mind that
he generally lacks clarity.
Thank you Sandra, et al. for the clarity that you provide. The talk of
partnership and joy and fun with clearly stated principles in mind is
challenging to the status quo and stretches many of us, but it is certainly
much more helpful.
chris
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Mar 10, 2013, at 3:14 PM, D. Regan wrote:
People tend to latch onto a group that on the surface seems like a good fit. Once they feel the group is "theirs" they'll expect the group to provide what they need and to stop making them feel they don't belong. It happens here occasionally.
(BTW, it was (is) Bev Krueger who coined eclectic homeschooling. And she has a Nevada non-profit, Eclectic Homeschoolers Association and a website, eho.org. (Tammy Cardwell is the director. Names blasting from the past ;-)) The website seems very active, but the Yahoo list has fallen into disuse. She's still ut the Christian element is so prominent that it's not likely to appeal to secular homeschoolers.)
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Unschoolers are enthusiastic and have conferences and are an identifiableI bet that's a good part of it. It's hard to identify with a group when it doesn't have an identity. ;-)
> group, like an active political party. Eclectic homeschoolers don't have any
> of that, as far as I'm aware.
People tend to latch onto a group that on the surface seems like a good fit. Once they feel the group is "theirs" they'll expect the group to provide what they need and to stop making them feel they don't belong. It happens here occasionally.
(BTW, it was (is) Bev Krueger who coined eclectic homeschooling. And she has a Nevada non-profit, Eclectic Homeschoolers Association and a website, eho.org. (Tammy Cardwell is the director. Names blasting from the past ;-)) The website seems very active, but the Yahoo list has fallen into disuse. She's still ut the Christian element is so prominent that it's not likely to appeal to secular homeschoolers.)
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Mar 11, 2013, at 7:54 AM, Joyce Fetteroll wrote:
"She's still promoting it as inclusive but the Christian element is so prominent that it's not likely to appeal to secular homeschoolers.)"
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> She's still ut the Christian elementSomething munched on my sentence.
"She's still promoting it as inclusive but the Christian element is so prominent that it's not likely to appeal to secular homeschoolers.)"
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
Thanks!
Sandra Dodd
There was post I deleted for being more antagonistic than is ever useful, but I will quote the text of it.
_________
Dare I say it? The narcissism of small differences.
The term (by S Freud) describing 'the phenomenon that it is precisely communities with adjoining territories, and related to each other in other ways as well, who are engaged in constant feuds and ridiculing each other' - 'such sensitiveness [...] to just these details of differentiation'.
_________
Then there was appended Joyce's entire post that begins this topic (so you can click "Messages in this topic" at the bottom of the e-mail if that's where you are, or go to message view if you're on the website.
Freud isn't the best person to quote here, honestly. We're writing about things he couldn't have imagined, living when and where he did.
To stay on this page, people can't be tacky to Joyce or Pam. It's my page, and they're my most supportive moderators, for over eleven years now, and I've watched them help people for many years before that.
http://sandradodd.com/clarity
Clarity is what the discussion is about. Criticizing our always-clear intent to do this isn't a good use of time.
From the homepage of the site:
How and why does unschooling work? What kind of parents and parenting does it take? What will help, and what will hinder?
This is a list for the examination of the philosophy of unschooling and attentive parenting and a place for sharing examined lives based on the principles underlying unschooling.
___________________
If there's anyone here who has any problem with the purpose of the discussion, you can stay quietly, leave the group, or keep trying to stir it up and be removed. If it's making you think of Freud too much, leaving might be best for you and peace with your children.
If anyone honestly believes that there is much "narcissism of small differences" going on here, read a while at any of these links:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/messages (archives, over 70,000 messages, searchable)
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com (Joyce's page)
http://sandradodd.com (mine)
This is a message for anyone reading:
Please help us help people understand radical unschooling better, or go do something somewhere else.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
_________
Dare I say it? The narcissism of small differences.
The term (by S Freud) describing 'the phenomenon that it is precisely communities with adjoining territories, and related to each other in other ways as well, who are engaged in constant feuds and ridiculing each other' - 'such sensitiveness [...] to just these details of differentiation'.
_________
Then there was appended Joyce's entire post that begins this topic (so you can click "Messages in this topic" at the bottom of the e-mail if that's where you are, or go to message view if you're on the website.
Freud isn't the best person to quote here, honestly. We're writing about things he couldn't have imagined, living when and where he did.
To stay on this page, people can't be tacky to Joyce or Pam. It's my page, and they're my most supportive moderators, for over eleven years now, and I've watched them help people for many years before that.
http://sandradodd.com/clarity
Clarity is what the discussion is about. Criticizing our always-clear intent to do this isn't a good use of time.
From the homepage of the site:
How and why does unschooling work? What kind of parents and parenting does it take? What will help, and what will hinder?
This is a list for the examination of the philosophy of unschooling and attentive parenting and a place for sharing examined lives based on the principles underlying unschooling.
___________________
If there's anyone here who has any problem with the purpose of the discussion, you can stay quietly, leave the group, or keep trying to stir it up and be removed. If it's making you think of Freud too much, leaving might be best for you and peace with your children.
If anyone honestly believes that there is much "narcissism of small differences" going on here, read a while at any of these links:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/messages (archives, over 70,000 messages, searchable)
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com (Joyce's page)
http://sandradodd.com (mine)
This is a message for anyone reading:
Please help us help people understand radical unschooling better, or go do something somewhere else.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
***The narcissism of small differences.
The term (by S Freud) describing 'the phenomenon that it is precisely communities with adjoining territories, and related to each other in other ways as well, who are engaged in constant feuds and ridiculing each other' - 'such sensitiveness [...] to just these details of differentiation'.***
Small differences? When in practice with my children, those "differences" can mean moving about peacefully with my kids or creating discord. Those things don't seem like small differences to me. If unschooling means everything in the whole world to whoever decides it to be so, then it loses all meaning entirely.
It kind of goes into a chain of thought like this, Unschooling is an educational choice, under the heading homeschooling, where there is a focus on learning without curriculum, and the learning is happy and peaceful, so parents need to find a way to make life peaceful and happy, which in turn impacts the nature of the relationship between parent and child. Anything added into that either makes that better or worse.
If the small difference is that I have enforced family time, how does that help or hinder the relationship aspect of unschooling? If that small difference is that I only buy organic food, how does impact happy learning? If I unschool everything but math, how does that change the way I view curriculum and the learning process?
Those things aren't little differences, they are every bit a part of what makes unschooling work well or not. Sure, people can do whatever they want to do. What I don't understand though, is why in the world anyone would want to call themselves an unschooler, or attach themselves to that as a label unless they are really actually unschooling. Why not just tell people that you are a relaxed homeschooler and leave it at that. In day to day life I generally refer to our family as homeschoolers. If people want details I can go into that, but I don't normally do so. The only time I talk about unschooling is around other unschoolers.
It's best to assume that there is a common definition of what that is if you are going to discuss details of day to day lives. There is a common working definition for this group as well as some other places online. Certainly, if you don't agree, you are free to go elsewhere, where whatever definition you've decided it should be, will be accepted. People do that all the time.
If those other definitions end up standing the test of time, I'm sure someone will include it in the unschooling wikipedia page, since that is a working and changing page with some core ideas that never change. That page needs a lot of work. There have been many many changes to it over the years and yet those core ideas still haven't changed, like not using curriculum, and that learning is innate. I feel pretty confident in saying that anyone who is using a curriculum to educate their child, is doing something other than unschooling. It doesn't even matter, at that point what they ARE doing, we can safely rule out unschooling.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
The term (by S Freud) describing 'the phenomenon that it is precisely communities with adjoining territories, and related to each other in other ways as well, who are engaged in constant feuds and ridiculing each other' - 'such sensitiveness [...] to just these details of differentiation'.***
Small differences? When in practice with my children, those "differences" can mean moving about peacefully with my kids or creating discord. Those things don't seem like small differences to me. If unschooling means everything in the whole world to whoever decides it to be so, then it loses all meaning entirely.
It kind of goes into a chain of thought like this, Unschooling is an educational choice, under the heading homeschooling, where there is a focus on learning without curriculum, and the learning is happy and peaceful, so parents need to find a way to make life peaceful and happy, which in turn impacts the nature of the relationship between parent and child. Anything added into that either makes that better or worse.
If the small difference is that I have enforced family time, how does that help or hinder the relationship aspect of unschooling? If that small difference is that I only buy organic food, how does impact happy learning? If I unschool everything but math, how does that change the way I view curriculum and the learning process?
Those things aren't little differences, they are every bit a part of what makes unschooling work well or not. Sure, people can do whatever they want to do. What I don't understand though, is why in the world anyone would want to call themselves an unschooler, or attach themselves to that as a label unless they are really actually unschooling. Why not just tell people that you are a relaxed homeschooler and leave it at that. In day to day life I generally refer to our family as homeschoolers. If people want details I can go into that, but I don't normally do so. The only time I talk about unschooling is around other unschoolers.
It's best to assume that there is a common definition of what that is if you are going to discuss details of day to day lives. There is a common working definition for this group as well as some other places online. Certainly, if you don't agree, you are free to go elsewhere, where whatever definition you've decided it should be, will be accepted. People do that all the time.
If those other definitions end up standing the test of time, I'm sure someone will include it in the unschooling wikipedia page, since that is a working and changing page with some core ideas that never change. That page needs a lot of work. There have been many many changes to it over the years and yet those core ideas still haven't changed, like not using curriculum, and that learning is innate. I feel pretty confident in saying that anyone who is using a curriculum to educate their child, is doing something other than unschooling. It doesn't even matter, at that point what they ARE doing, we can safely rule out unschooling.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
D. Regan
On 12/03/2013, at 9:37 AM, Jenny Cyphers wrote:
I see a lack of mindfulness in these people. I see rebellion taking them so far down a track in which their kids don't go to school and they don't do curriculum *all* day, but not so far that their children can benefit from unschooling. The relationships with their children aren't like unschooling relationships - often adversarial, controlling or hands off. Any talk of how children's lives could be improved by this or that unschooling idea, is met with cries about the rigid rules of *some* unschoolers who give the 'movement' a bad name. It doesn't fit with their 'anything goes' (as long as it suits them) attitude.
Debbie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> What I don't understand though, is why in the world anyone would want to call themselves an unschooler, or attach themselves to that as a label unless they are really actually unschooling.What I've seen, is people who like to rebel, who identify as people who 'aren't going to be told what to do by anyone', latching onto a group who also appear to be rebelling. They don't seem to see that unschoolers aren't rebelling. Unschoolers are mindfully and profoundly doing what makes sense.
I see a lack of mindfulness in these people. I see rebellion taking them so far down a track in which their kids don't go to school and they don't do curriculum *all* day, but not so far that their children can benefit from unschooling. The relationships with their children aren't like unschooling relationships - often adversarial, controlling or hands off. Any talk of how children's lives could be improved by this or that unschooling idea, is met with cries about the rigid rules of *some* unschoolers who give the 'movement' a bad name. It doesn't fit with their 'anything goes' (as long as it suits them) attitude.
> Why not just tell people that you are a relaxed homeschooler and leave it at that."Relaxed homeschooler" doesn't have the kick-ass cachet of "unschooler". And I think that that matters to some people who like to rebel, who want to thumb their nose at regular society. It's not about how their kids can have awesome lives. To me, it seems to be about rebels who feel safer in the company of other 'rebels'. Not much to do with unschooling at all!
Debbie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
ehulani56
> "Relaxed homeschooler" doesn't have the kick-ass cachet of "unschooler". And I think that that matters to some people who like to rebel, who want to thumb their nose at regular society. It's not about how their kids can have awesome lives. To me, it seems to be about rebels who feel safer in the company of other 'rebels'. Not much to do with unschooling at all!I think people want to be cool (especially if they aren't cool for any other reason). "Unschooler" sounds au courant. It does seem to have more to do with others' perception of the *parent* not the rich, peaceful lives of the children, as Debbie said.
>
> "Relaxed homeschooler" doesn't have the kick-ass cachet of "unschooler". And I think that that matters to some people who like to rebel, who want to thumb their nose at regular society. It's not about how their kids can have awesome lives. To me, it seems to be about rebels who feel safer in the company of other 'rebels'. Not much to do with unschooling at all! >
Maybe it's like getting a tattoo. Once upon a time it was a rebellious thing to do. Then it was a cool thing to do. Then maybe a fun thing to do when you'd had a few too many drinks. Now everyone has one. We were at a waterpark this weekend and the only place I've seen more tats is at an unschooling conference. To be honest, I almost succumbed to the lure of "I'm at an unschooling conference - let's go get a tattoo" thing a few years ago. Don't get me wrong - I like tattoos, but as a rebellious cool thing, it's lost its cachet.
I don't see unschooling becoming commonplace, though. Unschooling well isn't nearly as easy as walking into a tattoo parlor to be inked with a tribal design or a Rumi poem.
Robin B.
Gwen Montoya
When I first started learning about unschooling (6 years ago), I remember reading about "academic unschooling" and "radical unschooling". Those two terms made sense to me, but even then I could how much overlap there was.
It didn't make sense to me to trust kids to learn, but not to trust them with what they ate. I think maybe academic unschooling blended in with eclectic homeschooling?
Gwen
<robin.bentley@...> wrote:
It didn't make sense to me to trust kids to learn, but not to trust them with what they ate. I think maybe academic unschooling blended in with eclectic homeschooling?
Gwen
<robin.bentley@...> wrote:
>
> I think people want to be cool (especially if they aren't cool for any other reason). "Unschooler" sounds au courant. It does seem to have more to do with others' perception of the *parent* not the rich, peaceful lives of the children, as Debbie said.
>
> Robin B.
Sandra Dodd
-=Maybe it's like getting a tattoo. Once upon a time it was a rebellious thing to do. Then it was a cool thing to do. Then maybe a fun thing to do when you'd had a few too many drinks. Now everyone has one. -=-
I don't.
Too many times, other things get added on to what could and should be pure and simple, I think.
If it was so simple, though, there wouldn't be so much discussion of it, I guess. :-)
I think unschooling is worth doing and worth doing well. I don't think there are other things that need to be added to it.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I don't.
Too many times, other things get added on to what could and should be pure and simple, I think.
If it was so simple, though, there wouldn't be so much discussion of it, I guess. :-)
I think unschooling is worth doing and worth doing well. I don't think there are other things that need to be added to it.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
> engaged in constant feuds and ridiculing each otherIf a few people set aside a small corner of the universe to talk about an idea why would an invasion of that space be labeled a feud?
I guess it might look that way to someone who felt a surface understanding of unschooling was deep enough to judge what's going on.
Someone wrote on the other list, "[I] get confused why all homeschoolers can't just all work together. We can all learn from others. I learned a lot from reading this over the years. We completely unschool over the summer."
Those who are mining unschooling discussions for a few ideas aren't likely to get why unschoolers would want a quiet corner to talk about unschooling.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
<<<<" I think maybe academic unschooling blended in with eclectic homeschooling? ">>>>>
Not only that ! Some people send their kids to school and want to call it unschooling !
For some reason it seems that people that really want to be called unschoolers react strongly to discussions of the ideas and principles of unschooling.
I like discussions about unschooling like this list. I learn a lot from it and the ideas are becoming clearer for me and life sweeter.
I love veggies but I would not go to a vegan board and insist I am a vegan too just because I eat a lot of them! I can go and ge some yummy recipes and ideas.
There was something like that on my state list this weekend where people got upset because I asked to take discussions about creating a school of the list and to please not discuss religions and beliefs and keep it about unschooling only.
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Not only that ! Some people send their kids to school and want to call it unschooling !
For some reason it seems that people that really want to be called unschoolers react strongly to discussions of the ideas and principles of unschooling.
I like discussions about unschooling like this list. I learn a lot from it and the ideas are becoming clearer for me and life sweeter.
I love veggies but I would not go to a vegan board and insist I am a vegan too just because I eat a lot of them! I can go and ge some yummy recipes and ideas.
There was something like that on my state list this weekend where people got upset because I asked to take discussions about creating a school of the list and to please not discuss religions and beliefs and keep it about unschooling only.
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
I know lots and lots of unschoolers who don't extend their unschooling
ideas to learning everything - sleep, housework, behavior, eating, etc.
Lots of them have really strict food rules, for example. I think probably
most of the unschoolers I know, have pretty strong feelings about parental
control over types of food. Typically they don't control how much and
usually not when food is eaten but they do not allow sugar or meat or
gluten or other various types of foods that they feel are very detrimental
to a child's physical wellbeing or sometimes they have strong moral/ethical
feelings.
Many also require chores - have chore lists and so on. Most limit the time
their children spend on videogaming and tv watching. Many do not allow
commercial tv at all. Many require family dinner time. Lots require some
amount of outdoor playtime.
On this list and other radical unschooling places we breathe a rarified air
- but I think it is getting carried away to think most unschoolers are
practicing the form of unschooling we talk about here. They read here and
ask questions and consider and often loosen up and relax to a degree, but
the term "unschooling" is not synonymous with the radical unschooling we
support.
Read Mary Griffith's "The Unschooling Handbook" for a good sense of what
unschooling means to most unschoolers.
Eclectic homeschooling is selecting curriculum materials from a variety of
sources - putting together an educational program for your child made up of
materials you choose separately for each subject. It really has nothing to
do with unschooling other than that they may decide not to use any kind of
curricular materials for a certain subject.
Relaxed homeschooling is a mix of some use of curriculum and some allowing
kids to learn things more naturally with flexibility so that they don't let
their curriculum use interfere too much with other learning opportunities
such as travel or activities with friends, etc.
-pam
On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 8:02 AM, BRIAN POLIKOWSKY <
polykowholsteins@...> wrote:
ideas to learning everything - sleep, housework, behavior, eating, etc.
Lots of them have really strict food rules, for example. I think probably
most of the unschoolers I know, have pretty strong feelings about parental
control over types of food. Typically they don't control how much and
usually not when food is eaten but they do not allow sugar or meat or
gluten or other various types of foods that they feel are very detrimental
to a child's physical wellbeing or sometimes they have strong moral/ethical
feelings.
Many also require chores - have chore lists and so on. Most limit the time
their children spend on videogaming and tv watching. Many do not allow
commercial tv at all. Many require family dinner time. Lots require some
amount of outdoor playtime.
On this list and other radical unschooling places we breathe a rarified air
- but I think it is getting carried away to think most unschoolers are
practicing the form of unschooling we talk about here. They read here and
ask questions and consider and often loosen up and relax to a degree, but
the term "unschooling" is not synonymous with the radical unschooling we
support.
Read Mary Griffith's "The Unschooling Handbook" for a good sense of what
unschooling means to most unschoolers.
Eclectic homeschooling is selecting curriculum materials from a variety of
sources - putting together an educational program for your child made up of
materials you choose separately for each subject. It really has nothing to
do with unschooling other than that they may decide not to use any kind of
curricular materials for a certain subject.
Relaxed homeschooling is a mix of some use of curriculum and some allowing
kids to learn things more naturally with flexibility so that they don't let
their curriculum use interfere too much with other learning opportunities
such as travel or activities with friends, etc.
-pam
On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 8:02 AM, BRIAN POLIKOWSKY <
polykowholsteins@...> wrote:
> <<<<" I think maybe academic unschooling blended in with eclectic[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> homeschooling? ">>>>>
Sandra Dodd
-=-When I first started learning about unschooling (6 years ago), I remember reading about "academic unschooling" and "radical unschooling". Those two terms made sense to me, but even then I could how much overlap there was.
-=-It didn't make sense to me to trust kids to learn, but not to trust them with what they ate. I think maybe academic unschooling blended in with eclectic homeschooling? -=-
Maybe. I could kind of get behind academic unschooling, though I think it would work best for younger kids than teens, partly because the relationship building would not be there. And I also think the parents would be less involved with younger kids, too, waiting for them to discover things the parents already knew and had learned in school, because if "academic" is a principle factor, then the overlay of success, grades, passing and graduation are still intact. It would be an alternative way to gain the same knowledge.
When Kirby was five, six, I probably vaguely figured all that, BUT I was already, for many more years, involved in letting him eat if he wanted to and not to press him to eat (or even taste) things if the didn't appeal to him, or if he wasn't hungry.
And we had been already for several years NOT "putting kids down for naps," but I would nurse them to sleep (Kirby and Marty) or drive them to sleep or sing them to sleep or they would fall asleep watching a video (VCRs were fairly new :-).
So for me, the attachment parenting was extending beyond a breastfeeding relationship, and then we added unschooling to it when Kirby was four and nearly five.
When a family comes to it all of a sudden, it can't help but be overwhelming and confusing. We were fortunate to have had it seep in, and having known two unschooling families already, and reading Growing Without Schooling in a kind of gradual way, too. I wish it had come more often, but it was a kind of enforced "read a little, try a little, wait a while, watch." Pam Laricchia's intro series has that, but you only need to wait three or four days, not two months. :-)
The problem I see (back to the quote from Gwen at the top of this e-mail) is that some people do NOT want to be "academic unschoolers." They DO want their kids to learn a new and different array of things they come upon naturally, and they're willing to let go of the outline of the school's curriculum. At the same time, though, they want to manage their children's time, and input (physically and otherwise). I worry that those kids will have the many disadvantages of too much control without the consolation prize of "an education."
I have said sometimes that fundamentalist Christians take their kids out because they think schools are not controlling enough, and give kids too much information. Radical unschoolers take their kids out because they think schools don't give enough information, and are too controlling. That keeps us from being "the same," and that's why I've never had any interest in "supporting all homeschoolers." I would rather those other kids be in school than home being told lies about the world, and being punished if they don't recite them back correctly and quickly. (And I know this is a problem that might not exist outside a social subset in the United States, so don't even start defending fundamentalist Christians if you've never lived in the southern or conservative rural U.S., because we're probably not talking about the same thing at all.)
IF, though, a family homeschools for some other combination of objections to school, I won't be able to defend (nor have I any oblgation to defend) their reasoning or outcomes.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-=-It didn't make sense to me to trust kids to learn, but not to trust them with what they ate. I think maybe academic unschooling blended in with eclectic homeschooling? -=-
Maybe. I could kind of get behind academic unschooling, though I think it would work best for younger kids than teens, partly because the relationship building would not be there. And I also think the parents would be less involved with younger kids, too, waiting for them to discover things the parents already knew and had learned in school, because if "academic" is a principle factor, then the overlay of success, grades, passing and graduation are still intact. It would be an alternative way to gain the same knowledge.
When Kirby was five, six, I probably vaguely figured all that, BUT I was already, for many more years, involved in letting him eat if he wanted to and not to press him to eat (or even taste) things if the didn't appeal to him, or if he wasn't hungry.
And we had been already for several years NOT "putting kids down for naps," but I would nurse them to sleep (Kirby and Marty) or drive them to sleep or sing them to sleep or they would fall asleep watching a video (VCRs were fairly new :-).
So for me, the attachment parenting was extending beyond a breastfeeding relationship, and then we added unschooling to it when Kirby was four and nearly five.
When a family comes to it all of a sudden, it can't help but be overwhelming and confusing. We were fortunate to have had it seep in, and having known two unschooling families already, and reading Growing Without Schooling in a kind of gradual way, too. I wish it had come more often, but it was a kind of enforced "read a little, try a little, wait a while, watch." Pam Laricchia's intro series has that, but you only need to wait three or four days, not two months. :-)
The problem I see (back to the quote from Gwen at the top of this e-mail) is that some people do NOT want to be "academic unschoolers." They DO want their kids to learn a new and different array of things they come upon naturally, and they're willing to let go of the outline of the school's curriculum. At the same time, though, they want to manage their children's time, and input (physically and otherwise). I worry that those kids will have the many disadvantages of too much control without the consolation prize of "an education."
I have said sometimes that fundamentalist Christians take their kids out because they think schools are not controlling enough, and give kids too much information. Radical unschoolers take their kids out because they think schools don't give enough information, and are too controlling. That keeps us from being "the same," and that's why I've never had any interest in "supporting all homeschoolers." I would rather those other kids be in school than home being told lies about the world, and being punished if they don't recite them back correctly and quickly. (And I know this is a problem that might not exist outside a social subset in the United States, so don't even start defending fundamentalist Christians if you've never lived in the southern or conservative rural U.S., because we're probably not talking about the same thing at all.)
IF, though, a family homeschools for some other combination of objections to school, I won't be able to defend (nor have I any oblgation to defend) their reasoning or outcomes.
Sandra
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Sandra Dodd
For the benefit of someone who might be reading and is completely new to this, I want to expand on something Joyce used as an example. I didn't want anyone here to think it was meant to be a GOOD example. :-)
-=-Someone wrote on the other list, "[I] get confused why all homeschoolers can't just all work together. We can all learn from others. I learned a lot from reading this over the years. We completely unschool over the summer."
-=-
It's not possible to unschool in the summer, and do school otherwise. Years back there were some people talking about "afterschool unschooling." I guess it meant letting kids play around with academic materials after school.
If there is school, summer is earned, and is "time off," and isn't long enough for deschooling to work its magic. And if a kid knows school will be back in a couple of months, he's not likely to get the urge to explore any "school topics" for fun on his own. If grades are involved, and he's trained to the tests and the scores, he's also learned that what's not going to be on the test is not important, not real, a waste of time.
A couple of weeks ago I happened on a small discussion where someone was saying yes, her kids were in school, but she was still working out how to school AND unschool concurrently. I didn't stick around, because the main point of that was that her kids were in school.
Unless someone is ready to seriously examine how to unschool in a full-on, committed way, what I've written and the experiences I've had and seen in other such families will be more irritation than information. And on the other hand, when a family DOES decide that they really will commit to changing their lives in this extreme way, the other little conersations can seem more irritating than informative.
Different people are on different paths. Different people have different abilities and interests, different intents and different pressures. We can't create a discussion that will be everything to everyone.
We can't create a discussion that will be everything to everyone, but others think they can and they keep trying. And one by one they fail, or tweak their approach and then fail. Because it can't be done. The audience will become narrower as people who don't understand or don't agree or appreciate it go elsewhere.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-=-Someone wrote on the other list, "[I] get confused why all homeschoolers can't just all work together. We can all learn from others. I learned a lot from reading this over the years. We completely unschool over the summer."
-=-
It's not possible to unschool in the summer, and do school otherwise. Years back there were some people talking about "afterschool unschooling." I guess it meant letting kids play around with academic materials after school.
If there is school, summer is earned, and is "time off," and isn't long enough for deschooling to work its magic. And if a kid knows school will be back in a couple of months, he's not likely to get the urge to explore any "school topics" for fun on his own. If grades are involved, and he's trained to the tests and the scores, he's also learned that what's not going to be on the test is not important, not real, a waste of time.
A couple of weeks ago I happened on a small discussion where someone was saying yes, her kids were in school, but she was still working out how to school AND unschool concurrently. I didn't stick around, because the main point of that was that her kids were in school.
Unless someone is ready to seriously examine how to unschool in a full-on, committed way, what I've written and the experiences I've had and seen in other such families will be more irritation than information. And on the other hand, when a family DOES decide that they really will commit to changing their lives in this extreme way, the other little conersations can seem more irritating than informative.
Different people are on different paths. Different people have different abilities and interests, different intents and different pressures. We can't create a discussion that will be everything to everyone.
We can't create a discussion that will be everything to everyone, but others think they can and they keep trying. And one by one they fail, or tweak their approach and then fail. Because it can't be done. The audience will become narrower as people who don't understand or don't agree or appreciate it go elsewhere.
Sandra
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Sandra Dodd
-=-I know lots and lots of unschoolers who don't extend their unschooling
ideas to learning everything-=-
I do, too.
Some families have no way to unschool, but they still find some things in tehse discussions that make their lives nicer.
-=-I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of people who call themselves unschoolers in my country, look to educational outcomes for their children.-=-
No one is in a position to see or comunicate with all unschoolers. Variations can't be helped.
But there are some families who have done it fully, all the way, wholeheartedly and completely. And I have seen really sweet effects.
I've seen families that didn't do as much, or as well, and have seen the effect, sometimes, of the conrols or hesitation or lack of confidence in learning and in potential.
So I don't know what else to do than to keep doing what I'm doing.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
ideas to learning everything-=-
I do, too.
Some families have no way to unschool, but they still find some things in tehse discussions that make their lives nicer.
-=-I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of people who call themselves unschoolers in my country, look to educational outcomes for their children.-=-
No one is in a position to see or comunicate with all unschoolers. Variations can't be helped.
But there are some families who have done it fully, all the way, wholeheartedly and completely. And I have seen really sweet effects.
I've seen families that didn't do as much, or as well, and have seen the effect, sometimes, of the conrols or hesitation or lack of confidence in learning and in potential.
So I don't know what else to do than to keep doing what I'm doing.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
I had an e-mail from India this morning with some quotes discouraging people from thinking unschooling is anything remotely pure or good [big paraphrase on my part; honestly, it sounded like the strident dad from Louisiana saying everything was learning and all learning was unschooling]. I saw something yesterday from Australia that was dismaying�a recommendation NOT to try to do better, and NOT to focus on children. Someone on facebook offered to recommend some "nonjudgmental unschooling" sites.
That was within 24 hours.
This is from a few weeks ago, here: "Shifting of the meaning of labels happens in politics, religion and other areas. Maybe something like that will happen with 'unschooling'. I hope we're not left with "Very Radical Unschooling", though!"
There was a time a few years ago that Dayna asked me by e-mail whether I owned the term "radical unschooling." I said I didn't.
Many times in the past week I have remembered that moment and wished I had just said "yes, I do."
But I don't like people claiming to own phrases or words. I wish others felt that way, too.
There is so much rhetoric that's cruel, to sell a position (for money or otherwise). Pro-life (dividing into life and death), rather than no-choice. I'm tired and not thinking of other examples.
It the term "unschooling" has been adopted by two magazines and a national website (in Australia) that rejected it until just very recently, it's like a huge tie has come up carrying all the gunk and junk possible, and when it goes down again, the cleanup may never be completed.
Kind of frustrating.
Still, I send out Just Add Light every night, and am planning details of in-person opportunities in Massachusetts, Lisbon/Leiden/London (and maybe The Yarrow Valley), Albuquerque, Adelaide/Melbourne/Bega/Newcastle/Gold Coast, Maine and New Hampshire. I'm going to go and speak as clearly and as persuasively as I can (and Joyse with me for much of that, and others, here and there) to people who want to really deeply understand what it is they're changing their lives to do.
If I need to call it something different, that's not evidence of more understanding in the world as a whole.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
That was within 24 hours.
This is from a few weeks ago, here: "Shifting of the meaning of labels happens in politics, religion and other areas. Maybe something like that will happen with 'unschooling'. I hope we're not left with "Very Radical Unschooling", though!"
There was a time a few years ago that Dayna asked me by e-mail whether I owned the term "radical unschooling." I said I didn't.
Many times in the past week I have remembered that moment and wished I had just said "yes, I do."
But I don't like people claiming to own phrases or words. I wish others felt that way, too.
There is so much rhetoric that's cruel, to sell a position (for money or otherwise). Pro-life (dividing into life and death), rather than no-choice. I'm tired and not thinking of other examples.
It the term "unschooling" has been adopted by two magazines and a national website (in Australia) that rejected it until just very recently, it's like a huge tie has come up carrying all the gunk and junk possible, and when it goes down again, the cleanup may never be completed.
Kind of frustrating.
Still, I send out Just Add Light every night, and am planning details of in-person opportunities in Massachusetts, Lisbon/Leiden/London (and maybe The Yarrow Valley), Albuquerque, Adelaide/Melbourne/Bega/Newcastle/Gold Coast, Maine and New Hampshire. I'm going to go and speak as clearly and as persuasively as I can (and Joyse with me for much of that, and others, here and there) to people who want to really deeply understand what it is they're changing their lives to do.
If I need to call it something different, that's not evidence of more understanding in the world as a whole.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tori
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
Sure, our legal system is set up to allow people (or corporations) to own a label. But without substance, a label doesn't mean much and ends up being nothing more than superficial window-dressing.
It's evident when people are borrowing this window-dressing to enhance their ability to make profits. It's also evident when someone uses language to describe ideas and actions that are real.
Thanks for being real, Sandra.
Tori
>This rubs me the wrong way too. Some other folks have claimed urban homesteading. They're even involved in lawsuits to keep others from using the word without their permission.
>
>
> There was a time a few years ago that Dayna asked me by e-mail whether I owned the term "radical unschooling." I said I didn't.
>
> Many times in the past week I have remembered that moment and wished I had just said "yes, I do."
>
> But I don't like people claiming to own phrases or words. I wish others felt that way, too.
>
>
Sure, our legal system is set up to allow people (or corporations) to own a label. But without substance, a label doesn't mean much and ends up being nothing more than superficial window-dressing.
It's evident when people are borrowing this window-dressing to enhance their ability to make profits. It's also evident when someone uses language to describe ideas and actions that are real.
Thanks for being real, Sandra.
Tori
susanmarieburke
<<(BTW, it was (is) Bev Krueger who coined eclectic homeschooling. And she has a Nevada non-profit, Eclectic Homeschoolers Association and a website, eho.org. (Tammy Cardwell is the director. Names blasting from the past ;-)) The website seems very active, but the Yahoo list has fallen into disuse. She's still ut the Christian element is so prominent that it's not likely to appeal to secular homeschoolers.)>>
I know of a local to me, eclectic home schooling mom, Susan Landsman, who has talked in the past of a book she is working on. The working title was at that time Homeschooling for Heathens. I wonder if she may end up organizing the secular eclectic homeschoolers, finally giving them a cohesiveness!
I know of a local to me, eclectic home schooling mom, Susan Landsman, who has talked in the past of a book she is working on. The working title was at that time Homeschooling for Heathens. I wonder if she may end up organizing the secular eclectic homeschoolers, finally giving them a cohesiveness!