Why we send out links and discuss unschooling
Sandra Dodd
I'm going to put this on facebook, too, but it's here for calmer consideration, and for safekeeping.
----------------
This first quote is part of someone's long complaint about Always Learning, or Radical Unschooling Info, one or the other, in a long, negative discussion on facebook in the past couple of days:
"Then somebody says, 'Well, if you're not here to discuss unschooling, then why are you on an unschooling list?' Then somebody else will show me 12 links to articles about unschooling that were published eight years ago. Then somebody else will further define unschooling...."
This was written four years ago, in 2009:
"The reason I keep the site, and Joyce keeps her unschooling site, is that the same questions are asked over and over and OVER and over over the years. Even though Joyce and I also do several hours of work each week keeping lists available for people to continue to ponder and analyze and discuss these same, same questions, we also collect the best parts so people can find them without joining a list (and people do find them) and so that people on the lists can read LOTS of good advice and ideas about their current question, if it has come up before."
This is a page that's sent out sometimes:
http://sandradodd.com/joy
It was first published in 1997. That's TWICE eight years ago.
It was published several times after that, most recently December 2012 in Pathways to Family Wellness magazine.
We recommend that people read John Holt, too, and he hasn't written anything for nearly 30 years.
I'm not apologizing for having written, saved and shared the things on my site, even the eight-year-old things.
This is a pretty good summary of the way people can get quick, free, customized help: "Then somebody says, 'Well, if you're not here to discuss unschooling, then why are you on an unschooling list?' Then somebody else will show me 12 links to articles about unschooling that were published eight years ago. Then somebody else will further define unschooling....:"
The complaint was that the person had come to ask something that wasn't about unschooling, and didn't want unschooling answers, and people kept going on about unschooling, as though that's what she wanted to know. Complaining about us (or me) for doing what the discussion was created to do is neither courteous nor logical, but people do complain.
----------------
This first quote is part of someone's long complaint about Always Learning, or Radical Unschooling Info, one or the other, in a long, negative discussion on facebook in the past couple of days:
"Then somebody says, 'Well, if you're not here to discuss unschooling, then why are you on an unschooling list?' Then somebody else will show me 12 links to articles about unschooling that were published eight years ago. Then somebody else will further define unschooling...."
This was written four years ago, in 2009:
"The reason I keep the site, and Joyce keeps her unschooling site, is that the same questions are asked over and over and OVER and over over the years. Even though Joyce and I also do several hours of work each week keeping lists available for people to continue to ponder and analyze and discuss these same, same questions, we also collect the best parts so people can find them without joining a list (and people do find them) and so that people on the lists can read LOTS of good advice and ideas about their current question, if it has come up before."
This is a page that's sent out sometimes:
http://sandradodd.com/joy
It was first published in 1997. That's TWICE eight years ago.
It was published several times after that, most recently December 2012 in Pathways to Family Wellness magazine.
We recommend that people read John Holt, too, and he hasn't written anything for nearly 30 years.
I'm not apologizing for having written, saved and shared the things on my site, even the eight-year-old things.
This is a pretty good summary of the way people can get quick, free, customized help: "Then somebody says, 'Well, if you're not here to discuss unschooling, then why are you on an unschooling list?' Then somebody else will show me 12 links to articles about unschooling that were published eight years ago. Then somebody else will further define unschooling....:"
The complaint was that the person had come to ask something that wasn't about unschooling, and didn't want unschooling answers, and people kept going on about unschooling, as though that's what she wanted to know. Complaining about us (or me) for doing what the discussion was created to do is neither courteous nor logical, but people do complain.
Robin Bentley
>It's the continual failure (again and again) of people to read,
> "Then somebody says, 'Well, if you're not here to discuss
> unschooling, then why are you on an unschooling list?' Then
> somebody else will show me 12 links to articles about unschooling
> that were published eight years ago. Then somebody else will further
> define unschooling...."
comprehend, and absorb the guidelines of AlwaysLearning and the
Facebook page (where it seem to be even more of a problem).
There are more and more people coming to unschooling to stick it to
the man who told them what to do and now that they have kids, they're
going to rebel, dammit. "You can't tell me to read anything, you can't
make me follow rules. And how come there are rules? I thought we were
free of every rule in the world now that we're unschooling. Don't you
tell me different, you...you... meanie."
Running off to find a place where people will listen to their sad
story and love them up is not going to help their kids. But maybe they
don't really want to learn, to think, to grow as a parent. They want
quick fixes that will make them a magical new unschooler. Then they'll
be cool. Then they'll be free. Then they can really stick it to the
man. They might even hang out a shingle and start charging for their
newfound advice.
If that isn't proof of the damage school does, then I don't know what
is. If the philosophy of unschooling isn't an intellectual exercise
requiring deep thought and real change, I don't know what is. That
people don't recognize either of these things is, to me, an enormous
stumbling block to "getting it."
> I'm not apologizing for having written, saved and shared the thingsSome of the most wonderful bits on Sandra's pages are stories of the
> on my site, even the eight-year-old things.
real shifts towards unschooling that parents made. You can practically
feel the sadness in some mom's writing when they talk about how
stubborn they were at first and if they'd only "read a little, tried a
little, waited a while and watched" their kids' lives would have been
so much better, earlier.
>There are plenty of less scrupulous purveyors of what passes for
> This is a pretty good summary of the way people can get quick, free,
> customized help: "Then somebody says, 'Well, if you're not here to
> discuss unschooling, then why are you on an unschooling list?' Then
> somebody else will show me 12 links to articles about unschooling
> that were published eight years ago. Then somebody else will further
> define unschooling....:"
unschooling and they descend on the scared rabbits pretty quickly. But
their help isn't free, in the long run.
>I'm with Jenny on this: "What amazes me in these kinds of discussions
> The complaint was that the person had come to ask something that
> wasn't about unschooling, and didn't want unschooling answers, and
> people kept going on about unschooling, as though that's what she
> wanted to know. Complaining about us (or me) for doing what the
> discussion was created to do is neither courteous nor logical, but
> people do complain.
is that people have very specific expectations and when they aren't
met, they blame the delivery and NOT their expectations. There have
been discussions where I have wanted to ask "What exactly do you
expect people to tell you?". I don't think they've really thought
about it, which simply exacerbates the problem that they perceive in
the first place."
How can you unschool well if you can't think even *that* far?
Robin B.
Sandra Dodd
-=Some of the most wonderful bits on Sandra's pages are stories of the
real shifts towards unschooling that parents made. You can practically
feel the sadness in some mom's writing when they talk about how
stubborn they were at first and if they'd only "read a little, tried a
little, waited a while and watched" their kids' lives would have been
so much better, earlier.-=-
I am honored to host those sad-turns-to-happy stories.
http://sandradodd.com/gettingit
http://sandradodd.com/ifonly
I get stuff like this, too, and I don't save much of this kind:
-=-I hope you treat your children with a little more empathy and consideration than you do the members of your page. Quote that on your page, bitch. -=-
(That was from someone I had never heard of at all, but because I let me real name and contact info be out there, and have for a long time, crap hits the window.)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
real shifts towards unschooling that parents made. You can practically
feel the sadness in some mom's writing when they talk about how
stubborn they were at first and if they'd only "read a little, tried a
little, waited a while and watched" their kids' lives would have been
so much better, earlier.-=-
I am honored to host those sad-turns-to-happy stories.
http://sandradodd.com/gettingit
http://sandradodd.com/ifonly
I get stuff like this, too, and I don't save much of this kind:
-=-I hope you treat your children with a little more empathy and consideration than you do the members of your page. Quote that on your page, bitch. -=-
(That was from someone I had never heard of at all, but because I let me real name and contact info be out there, and have for a long time, crap hits the window.)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
c.marie119
Sandra, those are my words -- quoted in part and out of context -- from a private Facebook conversation that you were not involved in. I do not appreciate you lifting them from that Facebook conversation and pasting them here for, as you call it, "safekeeping."
By way of background, Pam S. asked why some people leave some groups. I gave an answer. In short: poor fit between expectation and group intent or dynamics. It's pretty simple, really. And there's nothing wrong with either party when that happens.
You do not need to quote my words (again, without my knowledge or consent, and from a Facebook conversation that you were not a part of, and abridged and out of context) in order to defend yourself to other people who also were not involved in that conversation. You do fine work. You have helped thousands. Why not let your good work speak for itself? Why the need to hunt down bits and pieces of other people's conversations, which may well not even have anything to do with you personally, to bring back to your site and hash over? Have your own conversations. They are very good ones. But leave mine alone.
Thank you.
Christa
By way of background, Pam S. asked why some people leave some groups. I gave an answer. In short: poor fit between expectation and group intent or dynamics. It's pretty simple, really. And there's nothing wrong with either party when that happens.
You do not need to quote my words (again, without my knowledge or consent, and from a Facebook conversation that you were not a part of, and abridged and out of context) in order to defend yourself to other people who also were not involved in that conversation. You do fine work. You have helped thousands. Why not let your good work speak for itself? Why the need to hunt down bits and pieces of other people's conversations, which may well not even have anything to do with you personally, to bring back to your site and hash over? Have your own conversations. They are very good ones. But leave mine alone.
Thank you.
Christa
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> I'm going to put this on facebook, too, but it's here for calmer consideration, and for safekeeping.
>
> ----------------
>
> This first quote is part of someone's long complaint about Always Learning, or Radical Unschooling Info, one or the other, in a long, negative discussion on facebook in the past couple of days:
>
> "Then somebody says, 'Well, if you're not here to discuss unschooling, then why are you on an unschooling list?' Then somebody else will show me 12 links to articles about unschooling that were published eight years ago. Then somebody else will further define unschooling...."
>
> This was written four years ago, in 2009:
>
> "The reason I keep the site, and Joyce keeps her unschooling site, is that the same questions are asked over and over and OVER and over over the years. Even though Joyce and I also do several hours of work each week keeping lists available for people to continue to ponder and analyze and discuss these same, same questions, we also collect the best parts so people can find them without joining a list (and people do find them) and so that people on the lists can read LOTS of good advice and ideas about their current question, if it has come up before."
>
> This is a page that's sent out sometimes:
> http://sandradodd.com/joy
>
> It was first published in 1997. That's TWICE eight years ago.
> It was published several times after that, most recently December 2012 in Pathways to Family Wellness magazine.
>
> We recommend that people read John Holt, too, and he hasn't written anything for nearly 30 years.
>
> I'm not apologizing for having written, saved and shared the things on my site, even the eight-year-old things.
>
> This is a pretty good summary of the way people can get quick, free, customized help: "Then somebody says, 'Well, if you're not here to discuss unschooling, then why are you on an unschooling list?' Then somebody else will show me 12 links to articles about unschooling that were published eight years ago. Then somebody else will further define unschooling....:"
>
> The complaint was that the person had come to ask something that wasn't about unschooling, and didn't want unschooling answers, and people kept going on about unschooling, as though that's what she wanted to know. Complaining about us (or me) for doing what the discussion was created to do is neither courteous nor logical, but people do complain.
>
Alex Polikowsky
That conversation is on a page of someone who has it set to public. Anyone can not not only see it but also participate even if they are not friends with that person. So not it is not a private conversation and Sandra has been mentioned several times in it.
Alex Polikowsky
Sent from my iPhone
Alex Polikowsky
Sent from my iPhone
On Feb 23, 2013, at 7:44 PM, "c.marie119" <christa.brelin.gainor@...> wrote:
> Sandra, those are my words -- quoted in part and out of context -- from a private Facebook conversation that you were not involved in. I do not appreciate you lifting them from that Facebook conversation and pasting them here for, as you call it, "safekeeping."
>
> By way of background, Pam S. asked why some people leave some groups. I gave an answer. In short: poor fit between expectation and group intent or dynamics. It's pretty simple, really. And there's nothing wrong with either party when that happens.
>
> You do not need to quote my words (again, without my knowledge or consent, and from a Facebook conversation that you were not a part of, and abridged and out of context) in order to defend yourself to other people who also were not involved in that conversation. You do fine work. You have helped thousands. Why not let your good work speak for itself? Why the need to hunt down bits and pieces of other people's conversations, which may well not even have anything to do with you personally, to bring back to your site and hash over? Have your own conversations. They are very good ones. But leave mine alone.
>
> Thank you.
>
> Christa
>
> --- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd wrote:
> >
> > I'm going to put this on facebook, too, but it's here for calmer consideration, and for safekeeping.
> >
> > ----------------
> >
> > This first quote is part of someone's long complaint about Always Learning, or Radical Unschooling Info, one or the other, in a long, negative discussion on facebook in the past couple of days:
> >
> > "Then somebody says, 'Well, if you're not here to discuss unschooling, then why are you on an unschooling list?' Then somebody else will show me 12 links to articles about unschooling that were published eight years ago. Then somebody else will further define unschooling...."
> >
> > This was written four years ago, in 2009:
> >
> > "The reason I keep the site, and Joyce keeps her unschooling site, is that the same questions are asked over and over and OVER and over over the years. Even though Joyce and I also do several hours of work each week keeping lists available for people to continue to ponder and analyze and discuss these same, same questions, we also collect the best parts so people can find them without joining a list (and people do find them) and so that people on the lists can read LOTS of good advice and ideas about their current question, if it has come up before."
> >
> > This is a page that's sent out sometimes:
> > http://sandradodd.com/joy
> >
> > It was first published in 1997. That's TWICE eight years ago.
> > It was published several times after that, most recently December 2012 in Pathways to Family Wellness magazine.
> >
> > We recommend that people read John Holt, too, and he hasn't written anything for nearly 30 years.
> >
> > I'm not apologizing for having written, saved and shared the things on my site, even the eight-year-old things.
> >
> > This is a pretty good summary of the way people can get quick, free, customized help: "Then somebody says, 'Well, if you're not here to discuss unschooling, then why are you on an unschooling list?' Then somebody else will show me 12 links to articles about unschooling that were published eight years ago. Then somebody else will further define unschooling....:"
> >
> > The complaint was that the person had come to ask something that wasn't about unschooling, and didn't want unschooling answers, and people kept going on about unschooling, as though that's what she wanted to know. Complaining about us (or me) for doing what the discussion was created to do is neither courteous nor logical, but people do complain.
> >
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-those are my words -- quoted in part and out of context -- from a private Facebook conversation that you were not involved in. -=-
It wasn't even NEARLY private.
I was not involved because I didn't respond, but probably half the people who posted are my facebook friends, at their request. (I requested Pam Sorooshian's friendship, but I think every one of the others asked me.)
Nobody told me that exchange was there. It kept coming up in my newsfeed, when friends of mine posted on it. And Wendy Priesnitz is a facebook friend. That's not private. I could've responded.
-=-Sandra, those are my words -- quoted in part and out of context -- from a private Facebook conversation that you were not involved in. I do not appreciate you lifting them from that Facebook conversation and pasting them here for, as you call it, "safekeeping." -=-
Did it matter that they were your words? I purposely didn't note or care who wrote it. It was about the statement, and the idea that that would be something to complain about (links being sent) that I wanted to write in a place that would remain. I wanted MY words and commentary to be in a longterm place, because what I was saying was important to note. It doesn't matter that what John Holt wrote is more than eight years old. It doesn't matter that Joyce has things on her site that are several years old. My site is FULL of things that are older, and some that are new this week. This one's been there a couple of hours: http://sandradodd.com/portuguese/gradual
It's a lot of work, but I don't mind.
It costs $130 a year for the website, but I don't mind.
When people complain about it, that bothers me.
-=-By way of background, Pam S. asked why some people leave some groups. I gave an answer. In short: poor fit between expectation and group intent or dynamics. It's pretty simple, really. And there's nothing wrong with either party when that happens.-=-
Pam didn't ask why some people leave groups.
People were making wild claims about why they leave groups.
What Pam S. asked was for someone to bring a quote that was evidence of what was being claimed. You didn't bring a quote. You made up a scenario. That's okay, but to complain (or have your hypothetical example character complain) about people sending links made me want to defend the sending of links. You didn't share the point I made after quoting that one little part of your very long hypothetical example.
And you did share, out of context, from what I wrote here. So I don't guess you really object to such sharing.
If you want to bring your complete quote here, go ahead. It wasn't very nice, and it didn't answer Pam's question. I'm sorry you have taken credit for it. I didn't know or care who wrote it. But as you're complaining that it was out of context, bring it if you want to.
Sandra
It wasn't even NEARLY private.
I was not involved because I didn't respond, but probably half the people who posted are my facebook friends, at their request. (I requested Pam Sorooshian's friendship, but I think every one of the others asked me.)
Nobody told me that exchange was there. It kept coming up in my newsfeed, when friends of mine posted on it. And Wendy Priesnitz is a facebook friend. That's not private. I could've responded.
-=-Sandra, those are my words -- quoted in part and out of context -- from a private Facebook conversation that you were not involved in. I do not appreciate you lifting them from that Facebook conversation and pasting them here for, as you call it, "safekeeping." -=-
Did it matter that they were your words? I purposely didn't note or care who wrote it. It was about the statement, and the idea that that would be something to complain about (links being sent) that I wanted to write in a place that would remain. I wanted MY words and commentary to be in a longterm place, because what I was saying was important to note. It doesn't matter that what John Holt wrote is more than eight years old. It doesn't matter that Joyce has things on her site that are several years old. My site is FULL of things that are older, and some that are new this week. This one's been there a couple of hours: http://sandradodd.com/portuguese/gradual
It's a lot of work, but I don't mind.
It costs $130 a year for the website, but I don't mind.
When people complain about it, that bothers me.
-=-By way of background, Pam S. asked why some people leave some groups. I gave an answer. In short: poor fit between expectation and group intent or dynamics. It's pretty simple, really. And there's nothing wrong with either party when that happens.-=-
Pam didn't ask why some people leave groups.
People were making wild claims about why they leave groups.
What Pam S. asked was for someone to bring a quote that was evidence of what was being claimed. You didn't bring a quote. You made up a scenario. That's okay, but to complain (or have your hypothetical example character complain) about people sending links made me want to defend the sending of links. You didn't share the point I made after quoting that one little part of your very long hypothetical example.
And you did share, out of context, from what I wrote here. So I don't guess you really object to such sharing.
If you want to bring your complete quote here, go ahead. It wasn't very nice, and it didn't answer Pam's question. I'm sorry you have taken credit for it. I didn't know or care who wrote it. But as you're complaining that it was out of context, bring it if you want to.
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
-=-So not it is not a private conversation and Sandra has been mentioned several times in it.-=-
I think I was only named by name once, but my page and this group were named.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I think I was only named by name once, but my page and this group were named.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
c.marie119
I won't come out of this looking good. This is your site. Whatever I say will be wrong. Obviously, that Facebook conversation was not private; my mistake. But I would indeed object to seeing my artwork or photography republished elsewhere without my permission or attribution, and I object in the same way to seeing my words republished elsewhere without my permission or attribution. I considered reprinting the full post here, but no. I don't want it here. It's public on Facebook, in the context of that conversation, and that's enough.
I tried to convey why some people leave some groups, because that was one of the topics of discussion. (Do people not really want to know? Should I not try to explain? I'm beginning to think that's the case.) I tried to convey that some participants seek, for example, advice about their child who found a workbook and started filling it out and got stuck, or is taking an art class and is having trouble getting there on time, or something specific of that nature, and they receive lectures about how workbooks and classes aren't really unschooling and maybe they should read more before asking such questions, and they leave unhelped. That is very interesting about what exactly unschooling is and is not, certainly, and of course John Holt's books remain wonderful and isn't remarkable about him teaching himself the cello, but then, here is this child still, who picked out this workbook in the bookstore (it happens; I swear to you) and is somehow stuck and mom still wants to help, and he's still stuck and mom's still wanting to help.
And that's fine. The group doesn't meet their needs. The group meets other needs. C'est la vie. Rock on.
I tried to convey why some people leave some groups, because that was one of the topics of discussion. (Do people not really want to know? Should I not try to explain? I'm beginning to think that's the case.) I tried to convey that some participants seek, for example, advice about their child who found a workbook and started filling it out and got stuck, or is taking an art class and is having trouble getting there on time, or something specific of that nature, and they receive lectures about how workbooks and classes aren't really unschooling and maybe they should read more before asking such questions, and they leave unhelped. That is very interesting about what exactly unschooling is and is not, certainly, and of course John Holt's books remain wonderful and isn't remarkable about him teaching himself the cello, but then, here is this child still, who picked out this workbook in the bookstore (it happens; I swear to you) and is somehow stuck and mom still wants to help, and he's still stuck and mom's still wanting to help.
And that's fine. The group doesn't meet their needs. The group meets other needs. C'est la vie. Rock on.
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-those are my words -- quoted in part and out of context -- from a private Facebook conversation that you were not involved in. -=-
>
> It wasn't even NEARLY private.
> I was not involved because I didn't respond, but probably half the people who posted are my facebook friends, at their request. (I requested Pam Sorooshian's friendship, but I think every one of the others asked me.)
>
> Nobody told me that exchange was there. It kept coming up in my newsfeed, when friends of mine posted on it. And Wendy Priesnitz is a facebook friend. That's not private. I could've responded.
>
> -=-Sandra, those are my words -- quoted in part and out of context -- from a private Facebook conversation that you were not involved in. I do not appreciate you lifting them from that Facebook conversation and pasting them here for, as you call it, "safekeeping." -=-
>
> Did it matter that they were your words? I purposely didn't note or care who wrote it. It was about the statement, and the idea that that would be something to complain about (links being sent) that I wanted to write in a place that would remain. I wanted MY words and commentary to be in a longterm place, because what I was saying was important to note. It doesn't matter that what John Holt wrote is more than eight years old. It doesn't matter that Joyce has things on her site that are several years old. My site is FULL of things that are older, and some that are new this week. This one's been there a couple of hours: http://sandradodd.com/portuguese/gradual
> It's a lot of work, but I don't mind.
> It costs $130 a year for the website, but I don't mind.
> When people complain about it, that bothers me.
>
> -=-By way of background, Pam S. asked why some people leave some groups. I gave an answer. In short: poor fit between expectation and group intent or dynamics. It's pretty simple, really. And there's nothing wrong with either party when that happens.-=-
>
> Pam didn't ask why some people leave groups.
> People were making wild claims about why they leave groups.
>
> What Pam S. asked was for someone to bring a quote that was evidence of what was being claimed. You didn't bring a quote. You made up a scenario. That's okay, but to complain (or have your hypothetical example character complain) about people sending links made me want to defend the sending of links. You didn't share the point I made after quoting that one little part of your very long hypothetical example.
>
> And you did share, out of context, from what I wrote here. So I don't guess you really object to such sharing.
>
> If you want to bring your complete quote here, go ahead. It wasn't very nice, and it didn't answer Pam's question. I'm sorry you have taken credit for it. I didn't know or care who wrote it. But as you're complaining that it was out of context, bring it if you want to.
>
> Sandra
>
Pam Sorooshian
On Sat, Feb 23, 2013 at 5:44 PM, c.marie119 <christa.brelin.gainor@...
hear that, over and over.
What I asked for were the actual examples. I clarified several times that I
wasn't asking for people to tell me their complaints, I've heard those for
years, but to send me the actual posts in which someone told them they were
wrong. I wanted to show that there is a disconnect between what people are
literally saying and the way others are interpreting it. Not a single
person could be bothered to track down an actual example and send it to me.
Lillian wrote:
Lillian Jones <https://www.facebook.com/LilyOne> So it would be one thing
if people were having a discussion about the way they think of unschooling,
but it's a whole other thing when some in the group tell others they're
wrong - then it becomes something other than a discussion.
and I followed that with a request:
Pam Sorooshian <https://www.facebook.com/pamsoroosh> I would really really
appreciate if someone has actual examples of someone else saying the kind
of thing Lillian is talking about - would you send me the link? Or quotes
or something? I have seen it happen over and over - that most people think
they are discussing unschooling and someone gets upset thinking that they,
personally, have just been told that they are wrong.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> wrote:No - I did not ask that. I know why people SAY they leave. I didn't ask to
> By way of background, Pam S. asked why some people leave some groups.
hear that, over and over.
What I asked for were the actual examples. I clarified several times that I
wasn't asking for people to tell me their complaints, I've heard those for
years, but to send me the actual posts in which someone told them they were
wrong. I wanted to show that there is a disconnect between what people are
literally saying and the way others are interpreting it. Not a single
person could be bothered to track down an actual example and send it to me.
Lillian wrote:
Lillian Jones <https://www.facebook.com/LilyOne> So it would be one thing
if people were having a discussion about the way they think of unschooling,
but it's a whole other thing when some in the group tell others they're
wrong - then it becomes something other than a discussion.
and I followed that with a request:
Pam Sorooshian <https://www.facebook.com/pamsoroosh> I would really really
appreciate if someone has actual examples of someone else saying the kind
of thing Lillian is talking about - would you send me the link? Or quotes
or something? I have seen it happen over and over - that most people think
they are discussing unschooling and someone gets upset thinking that they,
personally, have just been told that they are wrong.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
***Have your own conversations. They are very good ones. But leave mine alone.***
It wasn't your conversation. It was on someone else's wall on facebook. LOTS of people commented and were a part of it. I commented. Does that make it my conversation?
Facebook has brought out a special kind of writing, one of impermanence and quick thoughts that aren't often well thought out. Since there is so much cross over, as you are witnessing right now, the content of other forums gets bounced around and trickles out. It impacts unschooling. It impacts how people come to know unschooling or understand it.
It's good that things are transparent. Honesty and transparency are good for unschooling. Clear well thought out ideas are good for unschooling.
What is happening right now is the melding and meshing and mishing and mashing of technology and information and social networking. It can be messy. I know the moderators of this yahoo group and the admins of the facebook group try really hard to keep the floors swept and the dust bunnies out and the trash and garbage put into the appropriate receptacles. If something needs to be brought into the light it's because honesty and transparency are good. Some things are better left tucked away from public eyes, sometimes to prevent a new person from feeling trampled and sometimes to prevent unnecessary negativity from gaining a footing into a forum.
Always know your audience. Almost nothing online is private. Don't say things you don't want others to repeat. People talk to each other. I like it when Sandra brings into the light things that are being whispered about behind people's backs. That's a positive thing and worth keeping in mind when writing about unschooling in public forums. You shouldn't say things you don't want repeated.
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It wasn't your conversation. It was on someone else's wall on facebook. LOTS of people commented and were a part of it. I commented. Does that make it my conversation?
Facebook has brought out a special kind of writing, one of impermanence and quick thoughts that aren't often well thought out. Since there is so much cross over, as you are witnessing right now, the content of other forums gets bounced around and trickles out. It impacts unschooling. It impacts how people come to know unschooling or understand it.
It's good that things are transparent. Honesty and transparency are good for unschooling. Clear well thought out ideas are good for unschooling.
What is happening right now is the melding and meshing and mishing and mashing of technology and information and social networking. It can be messy. I know the moderators of this yahoo group and the admins of the facebook group try really hard to keep the floors swept and the dust bunnies out and the trash and garbage put into the appropriate receptacles. If something needs to be brought into the light it's because honesty and transparency are good. Some things are better left tucked away from public eyes, sometimes to prevent a new person from feeling trampled and sometimes to prevent unnecessary negativity from gaining a footing into a forum.
Always know your audience. Almost nothing online is private. Don't say things you don't want others to repeat. People talk to each other. I like it when Sandra brings into the light things that are being whispered about behind people's backs. That's a positive thing and worth keeping in mind when writing about unschooling in public forums. You shouldn't say things you don't want repeated.
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Rippy and Graham Dusseldorp
Pam Sorooshian wrote:
-=- I wanted to show that there is a disconnect between what people are literally saying and the way others are interpreting it. -=-
I sent Sandra a personal email in 2009 asking her if she had any information on her website about unschooling parents dealing with chronic fatigue or feeling depressed. Sandra wrote this to me:
I don't think there's anything specific, except to be responsible. If you can't make unschooling better than school, school's still there. If you're going to unschool, it needs to be better than school. If that involves getting mental, emotional or physical therapy for the parents, then do it! The house doesn't work if the roof is leaking and there's no heat. Parents don't work if they're in an emotional fog and can't pay sweet attention to their kids.
http://sandradodd.com/nest maybe
----
My interpretation of her email: 'Send your children to school!' I didn't really focus on the rest of the stuff she was saying. I zeroed in on the school part and that unnerved me so much that it blocked my ability to take in the rest of her words. There was a serious disconnect on my part.
My 2013 self reads Sandra's email and immediately focuses on "be responsible. pay sweet attention to the kids" and has a difficult time understanding how I could have glossed over those pearls of wisdom in 2009.
I think that the emotional/mental space I was in when I received the email in 2009 wasn't optimal for being able to fully grasp what Sandra was saying. When I was in a better place emotionally and mentally, I reread her email and was able to clearly understand her words. Reading regularly on this list helped me get there.
A good friend of mine who I encouraged to join the Always Learning list described this group as a 'drip feed of therapy'. I hadn't thought of it that way before, but I understand what she means. This group helped me be healthier and stronger, both emotionally and mentally.
I wrote about how I learned to read on this list here: http://sandradodd.com/feedback/rippy
I think it might be helpful to new unschoolers who may be getting stuck in their uncomfortableness.
Rippy
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-=- I wanted to show that there is a disconnect between what people are literally saying and the way others are interpreting it. -=-
I sent Sandra a personal email in 2009 asking her if she had any information on her website about unschooling parents dealing with chronic fatigue or feeling depressed. Sandra wrote this to me:
I don't think there's anything specific, except to be responsible. If you can't make unschooling better than school, school's still there. If you're going to unschool, it needs to be better than school. If that involves getting mental, emotional or physical therapy for the parents, then do it! The house doesn't work if the roof is leaking and there's no heat. Parents don't work if they're in an emotional fog and can't pay sweet attention to their kids.
http://sandradodd.com/nest maybe
----
My interpretation of her email: 'Send your children to school!' I didn't really focus on the rest of the stuff she was saying. I zeroed in on the school part and that unnerved me so much that it blocked my ability to take in the rest of her words. There was a serious disconnect on my part.
My 2013 self reads Sandra's email and immediately focuses on "be responsible. pay sweet attention to the kids" and has a difficult time understanding how I could have glossed over those pearls of wisdom in 2009.
I think that the emotional/mental space I was in when I received the email in 2009 wasn't optimal for being able to fully grasp what Sandra was saying. When I was in a better place emotionally and mentally, I reread her email and was able to clearly understand her words. Reading regularly on this list helped me get there.
A good friend of mine who I encouraged to join the Always Learning list described this group as a 'drip feed of therapy'. I hadn't thought of it that way before, but I understand what she means. This group helped me be healthier and stronger, both emotionally and mentally.
I wrote about how I learned to read on this list here: http://sandradodd.com/feedback/rippy
I think it might be helpful to new unschoolers who may be getting stuck in their uncomfortableness.
Rippy
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Joyce Fetteroll
On Feb 23, 2013, at 11:29 PM, c.marie119 wrote:
We *know* why people *say* they're leaving. They tell us loud and clear! ;-) They've been doing it for over 20 years. You just repeated what they say.
Pam wanted actually quotes of someone being told they were wrong.
Joyce
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> Do people not really want to know?You're assuming since lists aren't changing that owners of these analytical lists don't know. That assumption made you mistake what Pam was asking.
We *know* why people *say* they're leaving. They tell us loud and clear! ;-) They've been doing it for over 20 years. You just repeated what they say.
Pam wanted actually quotes of someone being told they were wrong.
Joyce
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Sandra Dodd
-=- I like it when Sandra brings into the light things that are being whispered about behind people's backs. That's a positive thing and worth keeping in mind when writing about unschooling in public forums. You shouldn't say things you don't want repeated.-=-
Thanks, Jenny.
And there is a 180 degree difference between protecting copyright on art and well-thought-out words someone might want to publish someday, and in revealing insults, threats or lies. Nobody plans to later publish insults, threats or lies.
When I quote someone anonymously and say "someone wrote that..." and it's something harsh or embarrassing, I NEVER, ever want them to come and say "I wrote that." I didn't want to embarrass them, and I didn't want it to be about them. I wanted it to be a factual account that those exact words had been set out in a public place. it's not an accusation, or the beginning of an argument. It's a fact to examine in an unschooling light.
There aren't university degrees in unschooling. People learn about unschooling the way kids learn videogames, or the way people can learn to use their computers, or to use programs like garage band, or photoshop, or to use html. They can start small, mess around, see what other people have done, google it, maybe buy a laminated cheat-sheet from a bookstore in some cases, or bookmark a website they especially liked. They can ask their friends or relatives to show them a trick or two.
When a person doesn't believe learning can happen that way, they will find it very difficult to be unschooling parents. When a person tries and discovers that one CAN learn very well with an assortment of input, either quickly in a concerted effort, or easily and gradually over months or years (adding more all the time), that is a huge leap in the understanding of how natural learningworks.
If we offer links, it's like saying "Here's a site about minecraft," or here's a good chart of html colors, or there are vegan recipes easily searchable here, or here's a really clear tutorial on how to make a random quote generator.
I don't care whether those charts or pages are a month old or ten years old, if they're useful.
(The minecraft page isn't going to be ten years old... not for another few years.)
Sandra
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Thanks, Jenny.
And there is a 180 degree difference between protecting copyright on art and well-thought-out words someone might want to publish someday, and in revealing insults, threats or lies. Nobody plans to later publish insults, threats or lies.
When I quote someone anonymously and say "someone wrote that..." and it's something harsh or embarrassing, I NEVER, ever want them to come and say "I wrote that." I didn't want to embarrass them, and I didn't want it to be about them. I wanted it to be a factual account that those exact words had been set out in a public place. it's not an accusation, or the beginning of an argument. It's a fact to examine in an unschooling light.
There aren't university degrees in unschooling. People learn about unschooling the way kids learn videogames, or the way people can learn to use their computers, or to use programs like garage band, or photoshop, or to use html. They can start small, mess around, see what other people have done, google it, maybe buy a laminated cheat-sheet from a bookstore in some cases, or bookmark a website they especially liked. They can ask their friends or relatives to show them a trick or two.
When a person doesn't believe learning can happen that way, they will find it very difficult to be unschooling parents. When a person tries and discovers that one CAN learn very well with an assortment of input, either quickly in a concerted effort, or easily and gradually over months or years (adding more all the time), that is a huge leap in the understanding of how natural learningworks.
If we offer links, it's like saying "Here's a site about minecraft," or here's a good chart of html colors, or there are vegan recipes easily searchable here, or here's a really clear tutorial on how to make a random quote generator.
I don't care whether those charts or pages are a month old or ten years old, if they're useful.
(The minecraft page isn't going to be ten years old... not for another few years.)
Sandra
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Sandra Dodd
http://sandradodd.com/feedback/rippy
I've just made a few amendments to that page, at the bottom. I had mentioned some upcoming events that are now long gone. :-)
This year I'll be at several events. Rippy will be speaking at one. Others at others, Joyce at most of them.
Information is set on some of them�Minneapolis in May, Lisbon in June, Leiden in June, west of London in July (Julie Daniel's event, not mine). Some things still nebulous: Scottish borderlands, June ; September/October, Australia.
That's in reference to the idea that it's like a graduate seminar. :-)
Also, I'm probably never ever again going to travel as much as I'm travelling this year. I want to work in my yard next summer. I'll have missed four out of five summers at home, and I'm getting old.
http://speakingsandradodd.blogspot.com
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I've just made a few amendments to that page, at the bottom. I had mentioned some upcoming events that are now long gone. :-)
This year I'll be at several events. Rippy will be speaking at one. Others at others, Joyce at most of them.
Information is set on some of them�Minneapolis in May, Lisbon in June, Leiden in June, west of London in July (Julie Daniel's event, not mine). Some things still nebulous: Scottish borderlands, June ; September/October, Australia.
That's in reference to the idea that it's like a graduate seminar. :-)
Also, I'm probably never ever again going to travel as much as I'm travelling this year. I want to work in my yard next summer. I'll have missed four out of five summers at home, and I'm getting old.
http://speakingsandradodd.blogspot.com
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Sandra Dodd
-=-I won't come out of this looking good. This is your site.-=-
Don't blame me, though.
It didn't look good where you first posted it.
-=- but then, here is this child still, who picked out this workbook in the bookstore (it happens; I swear to you) and is somehow stuck and mom still wants to help, and he's still stuck and mom's still wanting to help. -=-
The mom can help. Does the mom need other people to give her permission to help? Does the mom want NOT to help, and wants to blame other people, when she tells her child "I'm not going to help you?"
My kids had a few workbooks. The best-loved of them was an Animaniacs math workbook that all three of them worked some in. It lived with coloring books, and was treated that way. If they ever asked a question, I would answer the question.
One day we had another family visiting from another state, with three girls about the ages of my three kids who were, at the time in the 5-10 year-old range. The two youngest girls (one mine and one the other mom's) brought a workbook in and asked me to read the instructions. It had words in a column on one side and pictures in a column on the other, and the directions said to draw a red line from the word to the picture, or some such.
Holly asked me if it really had to be red, and I said no, to just do it however she wanted to.
The other mom (a very school-at-home mom) stiffened and pulled back visibly (showed her displeasure very physically)as the girls were leaving, though they didn't see her, it was for me) and said "WE think it's important that our kids learn to follow instructions." Yes.... Well.... Within just a few years she was divorced and her kids were in school.
For my kids it was a fun thing, no more important than any other game, toy or book in the house.
Sandra
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Don't blame me, though.
It didn't look good where you first posted it.
-=- but then, here is this child still, who picked out this workbook in the bookstore (it happens; I swear to you) and is somehow stuck and mom still wants to help, and he's still stuck and mom's still wanting to help. -=-
The mom can help. Does the mom need other people to give her permission to help? Does the mom want NOT to help, and wants to blame other people, when she tells her child "I'm not going to help you?"
My kids had a few workbooks. The best-loved of them was an Animaniacs math workbook that all three of them worked some in. It lived with coloring books, and was treated that way. If they ever asked a question, I would answer the question.
One day we had another family visiting from another state, with three girls about the ages of my three kids who were, at the time in the 5-10 year-old range. The two youngest girls (one mine and one the other mom's) brought a workbook in and asked me to read the instructions. It had words in a column on one side and pictures in a column on the other, and the directions said to draw a red line from the word to the picture, or some such.
Holly asked me if it really had to be red, and I said no, to just do it however she wanted to.
The other mom (a very school-at-home mom) stiffened and pulled back visibly (showed her displeasure very physically)as the girls were leaving, though they didn't see her, it was for me) and said "WE think it's important that our kids learn to follow instructions." Yes.... Well.... Within just a few years she was divorced and her kids were in school.
For my kids it was a fun thing, no more important than any other game, toy or book in the house.
Sandra
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Meredith
>>I tried to convey that some participants seek, for example, advice about their child who found a workbook and started filling it out and got stuck, or is taking an art class and is having trouble getting there on time, or something specific of that nature, and they receive lectures about how workbooks and classes aren't really unschooling*************
See, this is exactly the sort of thing where I'm pulling at my hair yelling at my computer screen - because I've Never Seen That on a radical unschooling list. So I'm with Pam on that - I want a real example. Maybe there are some older examples - I know that there's been a big, big shift away from discussing "unschooling" toward discussing "learning" in the past couple years.
I can think of relatively current examples on this list and others (on the subject of workbooks or textbooks or classes) where comments are made about how learning happens in real life, about deschooling, about learning to see learning outside of academics and helping kids to do the same - is that what people are reading as "you're doing it wrong" and "that's not unschooling"? I've said "that's not unschooling, so unschooling advice might not help you" in real life and online when someone describes lessons and wants to help a kid get through lessons faster or more painlessly. I've said "that's not unschooling" when someone has answered a question about unschooling with advice to do school-at-home. But none of those fit the theoretical scenario above.
>>but then, here is this child still, who picked out this workbook in the bookstore (it happens; I swear to you) and is somehow stuck and mom still wants to help, and he's still stuck and mom's still wanting to help.**************
So the problem is one we really already know - that people want normal schooling and homeschooling answers: how do I help my kid with this assignment. And those answers don't exist when you dig down into the depths of learning and interest and human need and what partnership looks like. What kind of help does the child think he or she needs and why? Can mom just fill in the workbook and they can go out and get ice-cream? Is there a better way to learn whatever the child wants to learn (because workbooks aren't actually very good learning tools)? Does the child want to learn something he's not ready to do? And then what? What are his underlying needs and -----oh! but no! That's not the question. The question is how to scoot li'l bubbah through page 17.
It's the old paradigm shift issue we've all known about for years. No-one starts out asking the "right questions" because you can only start from where you are - and that's not unschooling (Ha! I got there, good, I feel better) at best it's Learning About Unschooling and deschooling. And learning takes time. So people are complaining because they don't want to learn, they want the answer. And to an extend that's part of learning. I don't expect everyone to learn the same things in the same way. I stormed off an unschooling discussion back when there was unschooling.com - and after awhile found my way back, after I'd learned a few things elsewhere and came to value what the radical unschoolers had to offer. But not everyone will come to value that - and that's okay.
Mo prefers workbooks where the answers are listed in the back, btw, so she can look them up, like game cheats and walkthroughs. Why don't more workbooks have cheat pages?
---Meredith
Deb Lewis
***I tried to convey that some participants seek, for example, advice about their child who found a workbook and started filling it out and got stuck,***
What you wrote at the Facebook discussion was, in part: ***My answer would be “I don’t care what unschooling is or isn’t. I’m asking about my child and these math worksheets he’s doing.” Then somebody says, “Well, if you’re not here to discuss unschooling then why are you on an unschooling list?” ***
Worded that way, the “why are you on an unschooling list” question is reasonable. The clearer the question can be the more useful and to the point the responses can be. People can only respond to what is actually written.
And what would an unschooling parent’s question about math worksheets be? Should my child be doing them? Should I help him? Should I encourage him to do something else instead? ALL of that is about a parents understanding of unschooling. If unschooling doesn’t matter, then really, why ask the question on an unschooling list?
If you were trying to suggest that the “why are you on an unschooling list” question is contentious then I’d ask that you look at the first part. “I don’t care what unschooling is or isn’t” is the problem in that example. And somewhat insulting if the list is one where many people volunteer their time because they care very much “what unschooling is”
And that’s one problem with made up examples, even if they’re pretty close to actual experience. You probably didn’t mean to sound as dismissive of unschooling as you did. You probably didn’t mean to be insulting. You probably intended to show how a person asking a question can be frustrated by seemingly irrelevant responses.
Not every list will suit every person. I stay away from lists where people talk about raising their vibrations and upping their frequency and manifesting manifestations because I don’t care what vibrates and what doesn’t. I don’t go to those lists and announce my disregard for their intended purpose. And whether that purpose is clearly stated or not, the general atmosphere of the list ought to be enough to inform me, if I care to learn.
Deb Lewis
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What you wrote at the Facebook discussion was, in part: ***My answer would be “I don’t care what unschooling is or isn’t. I’m asking about my child and these math worksheets he’s doing.” Then somebody says, “Well, if you’re not here to discuss unschooling then why are you on an unschooling list?” ***
Worded that way, the “why are you on an unschooling list” question is reasonable. The clearer the question can be the more useful and to the point the responses can be. People can only respond to what is actually written.
And what would an unschooling parent’s question about math worksheets be? Should my child be doing them? Should I help him? Should I encourage him to do something else instead? ALL of that is about a parents understanding of unschooling. If unschooling doesn’t matter, then really, why ask the question on an unschooling list?
If you were trying to suggest that the “why are you on an unschooling list” question is contentious then I’d ask that you look at the first part. “I don’t care what unschooling is or isn’t” is the problem in that example. And somewhat insulting if the list is one where many people volunteer their time because they care very much “what unschooling is”
And that’s one problem with made up examples, even if they’re pretty close to actual experience. You probably didn’t mean to sound as dismissive of unschooling as you did. You probably didn’t mean to be insulting. You probably intended to show how a person asking a question can be frustrated by seemingly irrelevant responses.
Not every list will suit every person. I stay away from lists where people talk about raising their vibrations and upping their frequency and manifesting manifestations because I don’t care what vibrates and what doesn’t. I don’t go to those lists and announce my disregard for their intended purpose. And whether that purpose is clearly stated or not, the general atmosphere of the list ought to be enough to inform me, if I care to learn.
Deb Lewis
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Pam Sorooshian
On Sat, Feb 23, 2013 at 8:29 PM, c.marie119 <christa.brelin.gainor@...
way when they were questioned why an unschooler was using workbooks and
when lots of suggestions were made about options other than workbooks.
Most of us who post a lot here don't really care if something "is
unschooling" or not. And we really don't care whether someone "is an
unschooler" or not. What we care about is why certain choices are made,
what is the motivation, what will help kids learn, what will create a great
relationship between parents and children, what will help keep a child's
curiosity and love of learning alive and thriving, and so on.
-pam
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> wrote:I doubt people said, "That's not unschooling," but the person took it that
> they receive lectures about how workbooks and classes aren't really
> unschooling≥≥
way when they were questioned why an unschooler was using workbooks and
when lots of suggestions were made about options other than workbooks.
Most of us who post a lot here don't really care if something "is
unschooling" or not. And we really don't care whether someone "is an
unschooler" or not. What we care about is why certain choices are made,
what is the motivation, what will help kids learn, what will create a great
relationship between parents and children, what will help keep a child's
curiosity and love of learning alive and thriving, and so on.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
I need to modify or clarify what I wrote (below).
What I meant was, we don't usually care to spend our time defining or
arguing about what unschooling is or whether or not someone is an
unschooler.
It comes up. People ask. And sometimes people want to define unschooling so
broadly that it becomes meaningless. If it includes, for example, the
parent making lesson plans and grading the kids' papers or sending the kid
to school and that's too broad at least for this list. If we defined
unschooling that broadly, we'd end up talking about how to prepare our
children for standardized testing and how to cajole them into doing
homework. Not what we're discussing here.
Other times people want to define unschooling so narrowly that anything
that ever had anything to do with schooling is thrown out. I know someone
who said he was embarrassed for other unschoolers to see that they owned a
"school desk" (one they'd gotten at a garage sale).
But the purpose of this list isn't to define unschooling or to tell others
whether they are unschooling or not. We analyze situations, ideas,
thoughts, actions, choices, principles, behaviors, options, lifestyles,
experiences, relationships - all from an unschooling perspective.
All those questions people ask, "Is it still unschooling if they take
piano lessons and have piano homework?" "What about if they like to do
workbooks?" "My son asked for a math book." blah blah blah.
What difference does it make if some people on the internet say yes or no
to whether or not that is unschooling? Is someone going to not let their
kid take piano lessons is someone on an email list says: "that's not
unschooling?"
Instead, we want to talk about the reasons for doing things - is the child
happy with the lessons? If so, great, if it is a happy experience, then why
ask "Is it unschooling?" If not, why is he taking lessons? Are there other
ways to give kids exposure to music? Etc. We are likely to talk about the
effects of forcing unwanted lessons on a child and the reasons for not
doing that and other alternative ways to expose a child to music.
-pam
What I meant was, we don't usually care to spend our time defining or
arguing about what unschooling is or whether or not someone is an
unschooler.
It comes up. People ask. And sometimes people want to define unschooling so
broadly that it becomes meaningless. If it includes, for example, the
parent making lesson plans and grading the kids' papers or sending the kid
to school and that's too broad at least for this list. If we defined
unschooling that broadly, we'd end up talking about how to prepare our
children for standardized testing and how to cajole them into doing
homework. Not what we're discussing here.
Other times people want to define unschooling so narrowly that anything
that ever had anything to do with schooling is thrown out. I know someone
who said he was embarrassed for other unschoolers to see that they owned a
"school desk" (one they'd gotten at a garage sale).
But the purpose of this list isn't to define unschooling or to tell others
whether they are unschooling or not. We analyze situations, ideas,
thoughts, actions, choices, principles, behaviors, options, lifestyles,
experiences, relationships - all from an unschooling perspective.
All those questions people ask, "Is it still unschooling if they take
piano lessons and have piano homework?" "What about if they like to do
workbooks?" "My son asked for a math book." blah blah blah.
What difference does it make if some people on the internet say yes or no
to whether or not that is unschooling? Is someone going to not let their
kid take piano lessons is someone on an email list says: "that's not
unschooling?"
Instead, we want to talk about the reasons for doing things - is the child
happy with the lessons? If so, great, if it is a happy experience, then why
ask "Is it unschooling?" If not, why is he taking lessons? Are there other
ways to give kids exposure to music? Etc. We are likely to talk about the
effects of forcing unwanted lessons on a child and the reasons for not
doing that and other alternative ways to expose a child to music.
-pam
On Sun, Feb 24, 2013 at 11:33 PM, Pam Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...>wrote:
> Most of us who post a lot here don't really care if something "is
> unschooling" or not. And we really don't care whether someone "is an
> unschooler" or not. What we care about is why certain choices are made,
> what is the motivation, what will help kids learn, what will create a great
> relationship between parents and children, what will help keep a child's
> curiosity and love of learning alive and thriving, and so on.
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c.marie119
>>> Most of us who post a lot here don't really care if something "is unschooling" or not. And we really don't care whether someone "is an unschooler" or not. What we care about is why certain choices are made, what is the motivation, what will help kids learn, ... <<<That's terrific, and I'm all on board with that!
What's been striking me as funny is that the scenario I mentioned originally -- with the worksheets? -- which was brought over here for discussion, was inspired by a conversation I was in about a year ago on a *totally different group*. Not this one. Not even a Yahoo group. I hadn't looked at this board in, I believe, years. But I *have* participated in smaller, state and local Unschooling and Radical Unschooling message boards. The Thread in Question on Facebook was about unschooling groups generally (at least, to my knowledge; it did mention "groups," plural, not "group"). I don't think this group in particular was mentioned; if it was, or if it was "hinted at" or something, I guess I missed that. Color me ignorant. I included an experience I remembered from a local unschooling group.
Here's funny thing #2: After That Other Conversation on Facebook about unschooling lists, I'd started thinking that maybe things had changed on the lists I'd been familiar with, or that maybe I'd misinterpreted things way back when I was reading them, or that I'd missed something important about radical unschooling itself, so I decided to go look at a few, including this one. I looked at Yahoo groups like this, and at other groups. Maybe I'd had it all wrong! And lo and behold, on one of the lists -- this one, right here -- there were my words, quoted for dissection -- and without my even ever putting them there! My hypothetical scenario, inspired by an unrelated group, had been brought here to this one!
Well, I've been schooled. I know better now than to talk online about unschooling groups. I mean, any of them, anywhere! Even if I don't name them! Or maybe especially if I don't name them. Because what I say about one will be assumed to apply to another; because what I say over here will be put over there and continued without me. And then if I see it and say something about that, I'll be called a pot-stirrer or a troll or something.
I've been schooled. I won't do it again. I'll shut up now.
--- In [email protected], Pam Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
>
> On Sat, Feb 23, 2013 at 8:29 PM, c.marie119 <christa.brelin.gainor@...
> > wrote:
>
> > they receive lectures about how workbooks and classes aren't really
> > unschoolingâ¥â¥
>
>
> I doubt people said, "That's not unschooling," but the person took it that
> way when they were questioned why an unschooler was using workbooks and
> when lots of suggestions were made about options other than workbooks.
>
> Most of us who post a lot here don't really care if something "is
> unschooling" or not. And we really don't care whether someone "is an
> unschooler" or not. What we care about is why certain choices are made,
> what is the motivation, what will help kids learn, what will create a great
> relationship between parents and children, what will help keep a child's
> curiosity and love of learning alive and thriving, and so on.
>
> -pam
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Jesse Lyon
Hi, I am a long time reader and first time poster. Without weighing in on who is right or wrong about any if the issues talked about in these posts, is there any way this could all be resolved off list? I am very tired of having to wade through the arguments to be able to read a list that I enjoy and learn from. At the very least could topics not directly having to do with unschooling (ie he said she said) be labelled OT for off topic so I can skip them? My apologies if this has already been suggested and I missed it. I I know this might be hard because some threads have a lot of arguing with gems of unschooling wisdom sprinkled throughout , but I would love to see some way to not have to read the argument threads.
Thanks
Jess
Thanks
Jess
On Feb 25, 2013, at 12:53 AM, "Pam Sorooshian" <pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
> I need to modify or clarify what I wrote (below).
>
> What I meant was, we don't usually care to spend our time defining or
> arguing about what unschooling is or whether or not someone is an
> unschooler.
>
> It comes up. People ask. And sometimes people want to define unschooling so
> broadly that it becomes meaningless. If it includes, for example, the
> parent making lesson plans and grading the kids' papers or sending the kid
> to school and that's too broad at least for this list. If we defined
> unschooling that broadly, we'd end up talking about how to prepare our
> children for standardized testing and how to cajole them into doing
> homework. Not what we're discussing here.
>
> Other times people want to define unschooling so narrowly that anything
> that ever had anything to do with schooling is thrown out. I know someone
> who said he was embarrassed for other unschoolers to see that they owned a
> "school desk" (one they'd gotten at a garage sale).
>
> But the purpose of this list isn't to define unschooling or to tell others
> whether they are unschooling or not. We analyze situations, ideas,
> thoughts, actions, choices, principles, behaviors, options, lifestyles,
> experiences, relationships - all from an unschooling perspective.
>
> All those questions people ask, "Is it still unschooling if they take
> piano lessons and have piano homework?" "What about if they like to do
> workbooks?" "My son asked for a math book." blah blah blah.
>
> What difference does it make if some people on the internet say yes or no
> to whether or not that is unschooling? Is someone going to not let their
> kid take piano lessons is someone on an email list says: "that's not
> unschooling?"
>
> Instead, we want to talk about the reasons for doing things - is the child
> happy with the lessons? If so, great, if it is a happy experience, then why
> ask "Is it unschooling?" If not, why is he taking lessons? Are there other
> ways to give kids exposure to music? Etc. We are likely to talk about the
> effects of forcing unwanted lessons on a child and the reasons for not
> doing that and other alternative ways to expose a child to music.
>
> -pam
>
> On Sun, Feb 24, 2013 at 11:33 PM, Pam Sorooshian pamsoroosh@...>wrote:
>
> > Most of us who post a lot here don't really care if something "is
> > unschooling" or not. And we really don't care whether someone "is an
> > unschooler" or not. What we care about is why certain choices are made,
> > what is the motivation, what will help kids learn, what will create a great
> > relationship between parents and children, what will help keep a child's
> > curiosity and love of learning alive and thriving, and so on.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Feb 25, 2013, at 8:41 AM, c.marie119 wrote:
But scenarios like the workbooks do happen with this list. Or people perceive it that way. If such things didn't happen, members would have been scratching their heads wondering why Sandra brought it here to discuss!
The bigger idea you could have drawn from the experience is that *anything* that's written in public can be passed around. It's not limited to you. It's not limited to Facebook. It's not limited to talking about unschooling lists. It's a universal truth that what's said in public can spread without the person's approval or knowledge.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> What's been striking me as funny is that the scenario IWhat part about that is funny? That it was assumed the comment was about this list when it wasn't?
> mentioned originally -- with the worksheets? -- which was
> brought over here for discussion, was inspired by a
> conversation I was in about a year ago on a *totally different group*.
But scenarios like the workbooks do happen with this list. Or people perceive it that way. If such things didn't happen, members would have been scratching their heads wondering why Sandra brought it here to discuss!
> Well, I've been schooled. I know better now than toSchooled as in learned a limited rote lesson?
> talk online about unschooling groups
The bigger idea you could have drawn from the experience is that *anything* that's written in public can be passed around. It's not limited to you. It's not limited to Facebook. It's not limited to talking about unschooling lists. It's a universal truth that what's said in public can spread without the person's approval or knowledge.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
***I know this might be hard because some threads have a lot of arguing with gems of unschooling wisdom sprinkled throughout , but I would love to see some way to not have to read the argument threads.***
Interesting. Much of unschooling discussion is about presenting arguments and discussing them. Sometimes people fight about it and get upset, but the recent discussions have all been pretty civil.
***Without weighing in on who is right or wrong about any if the issues talked about in these posts, is there any way this could all be resolved off list?***
If all unschooling arguments went off list, there would be no list. Each person should weigh in about what they feel is right or wrong, maybe not always on list, but for sure, for themselves. If a particular topic doesn't interest you, skip it. That happens all the time on lists. I haven't read much about the lazy eye. I have little to say on the subject, zero experience, so I read a couple and skipped the rest.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Interesting. Much of unschooling discussion is about presenting arguments and discussing them. Sometimes people fight about it and get upset, but the recent discussions have all been pretty civil.
***Without weighing in on who is right or wrong about any if the issues talked about in these posts, is there any way this could all be resolved off list?***
If all unschooling arguments went off list, there would be no list. Each person should weigh in about what they feel is right or wrong, maybe not always on list, but for sure, for themselves. If a particular topic doesn't interest you, skip it. That happens all the time on lists. I haven't read much about the lazy eye. I have little to say on the subject, zero experience, so I read a couple and skipped the rest.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-> they receive lectures about how workbooks and classes aren't really
way when they were questioned why an unschooler was using workbooks and
when lots of suggestions were made about options other than workbooks.-=-
I have said "That's not an unschooling question," when someone wanted us to spend time answering a very school-sounding question, or to discuss a very school-based scenario. There are a few hundred thousand places to ask mainstream questions. (Okay, millions of places.)
Whether a question is going to lead to unschooling or not isn't about whether a person is an unschooler. That I honestly do NOT care about, and Pam's right. I don't care when a question is asked whether the person who asked it is unschooling or just asking or unschooling well or not. It would be like they put a pinecone on the table and we all started commenting on what kind of tree it was from, and about its shape and color, and whether any seeds were still in it, and we were all excited. It doesn't matter who brought the pinecone.
If we've set up to identify tree parts, though, and people are bringing some very cool bark and flowers and pine needles and leaves, we can have a grand time, until someone throws a rusty bolt on the table and argues that because it was found under a tree, we owe it (them) as much respect as we give anyone who brought anything else they found under a tree.
If they watched for a few days, or a week, the might know on their own that the things we were having so much fun analyzing and categorizing weren't bolts or car parts or school textbooks or workbooks.
I have all those kinds of things at my house—trees, tree parts, car parts, bolts/nails/screws, a few old workbooks I never gave my kids because they're kind of historic :-), a collection of New Mexico History books, including at least three school textbooks... and unschooling isn't compromised by *what* is there physically. It can be compromised (or prevented) by why people do things, and how they respond, and what they believe.
I think it was at Radical Unschooling Info on facebook, and not here, where someone wanted advice on jumping to Stage 3 unschooling (having seen the article Kelly Lovejoy wrote about stages of unschooling). She had been homeschooled, not with a curriculum. The point of Kelly's "advanced" stage of unschooling was that after you get through the choppy parts and the rough bits, there comes a smooth place where things look different because the parents are seeing them differently.
Sometimes people have said to put the workbooks away for a year or two, and they'll look different later.
There are things that aren't unschooling things. Tests, timed math drills, withholding food until "a lesson" is finished. I don't want to pussyfoot around that. But I do agree with Pam completely about this:
-=-What we care about is why certain choices are made,
what is the motivation, what will help kids learn, what will create a great
relationship between parents and children, what will help keep a child's
curiosity and love of learning alive and thriving, and so on.-=-
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> unschooling≥≥-=-I doubt people said, "That's not unschooling," but the person took it that
way when they were questioned why an unschooler was using workbooks and
when lots of suggestions were made about options other than workbooks.-=-
I have said "That's not an unschooling question," when someone wanted us to spend time answering a very school-sounding question, or to discuss a very school-based scenario. There are a few hundred thousand places to ask mainstream questions. (Okay, millions of places.)
Whether a question is going to lead to unschooling or not isn't about whether a person is an unschooler. That I honestly do NOT care about, and Pam's right. I don't care when a question is asked whether the person who asked it is unschooling or just asking or unschooling well or not. It would be like they put a pinecone on the table and we all started commenting on what kind of tree it was from, and about its shape and color, and whether any seeds were still in it, and we were all excited. It doesn't matter who brought the pinecone.
If we've set up to identify tree parts, though, and people are bringing some very cool bark and flowers and pine needles and leaves, we can have a grand time, until someone throws a rusty bolt on the table and argues that because it was found under a tree, we owe it (them) as much respect as we give anyone who brought anything else they found under a tree.
If they watched for a few days, or a week, the might know on their own that the things we were having so much fun analyzing and categorizing weren't bolts or car parts or school textbooks or workbooks.
I have all those kinds of things at my house—trees, tree parts, car parts, bolts/nails/screws, a few old workbooks I never gave my kids because they're kind of historic :-), a collection of New Mexico History books, including at least three school textbooks... and unschooling isn't compromised by *what* is there physically. It can be compromised (or prevented) by why people do things, and how they respond, and what they believe.
I think it was at Radical Unschooling Info on facebook, and not here, where someone wanted advice on jumping to Stage 3 unschooling (having seen the article Kelly Lovejoy wrote about stages of unschooling). She had been homeschooled, not with a curriculum. The point of Kelly's "advanced" stage of unschooling was that after you get through the choppy parts and the rough bits, there comes a smooth place where things look different because the parents are seeing them differently.
Sometimes people have said to put the workbooks away for a year or two, and they'll look different later.
There are things that aren't unschooling things. Tests, timed math drills, withholding food until "a lesson" is finished. I don't want to pussyfoot around that. But I do agree with Pam completely about this:
-=-What we care about is why certain choices are made,
what is the motivation, what will help kids learn, what will create a great
relationship between parents and children, what will help keep a child's
curiosity and love of learning alive and thriving, and so on.-=-
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=- is there any way this could all be resolved off list? -=-
"This" what? "Resolved" how?
The same kinds of questions and arguments come up over and over over the years, because there are always newer people coming along who missed it the last time and think they're the first ever to make that observation, or ask that question.
-=-At the very least could topics not directly having to do with unschooling (ie he said she said) be labelled OT for off topic so I can skip them? -=-
This topic is labelled "Why we send out links," and if you didn't want to read that, you could know after the first one that it wasn't interesting to you. They ARE labelled. Once it turned to "not a private conversation," you could've ignored it twice! But you posted in it, which made it even longer, because now I'm defending my right to discuss criticism of the method we use to help people, which is sending links to gems of unschooling wisdom collected over the past dozen and some years.
-=- I would love to see some way to not have to read the argument threads.-=-
You don't have to read anything. http://sandradodd.com/haveto
If you do happen to read things you wish you hadn't read, it doesn't help to write "I wish I hadn't read this," because that message goes out to everyone who's getting this by e-mail. Or writing "I wish you hadn't written that," or "I wish the subject line had been different." None of that was about unschooling, but the explanation of why we sent links out, and why it shouldn't matter if they're old, is directly about how unschooling information is disseminated.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
"This" what? "Resolved" how?
The same kinds of questions and arguments come up over and over over the years, because there are always newer people coming along who missed it the last time and think they're the first ever to make that observation, or ask that question.
-=-At the very least could topics not directly having to do with unschooling (ie he said she said) be labelled OT for off topic so I can skip them? -=-
This topic is labelled "Why we send out links," and if you didn't want to read that, you could know after the first one that it wasn't interesting to you. They ARE labelled. Once it turned to "not a private conversation," you could've ignored it twice! But you posted in it, which made it even longer, because now I'm defending my right to discuss criticism of the method we use to help people, which is sending links to gems of unschooling wisdom collected over the past dozen and some years.
-=- I would love to see some way to not have to read the argument threads.-=-
You don't have to read anything. http://sandradodd.com/haveto
If you do happen to read things you wish you hadn't read, it doesn't help to write "I wish I hadn't read this," because that message goes out to everyone who's getting this by e-mail. Or writing "I wish you hadn't written that," or "I wish the subject line had been different." None of that was about unschooling, but the explanation of why we sent links out, and why it shouldn't matter if they're old, is directly about how unschooling information is disseminated.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
I named the topic "Why we send out links and discuss unschooling" because of the complaint about people sending links to articles that were published eight years ago.
It didn't matter to me, and still doesn't, where that complaint was made (in public, in writing), nor by whom, nor about which discussion. The fact is that someone was dismissive, disdainful, of people sending links to articles. Articles published eight years ago. Eight's probably just a made-up number, which is fine. It could be twelve, or six, or two.
When people send links they're usually to something on my page or Joyce's. No matter what unschooling list or discussion was named, it's very likely that any eight-year-old links were from those sites.
Joyce's site has 145 pages. I know that because I made the random page generator she has there.
My site had 734 links when I last updated my random link generator in 2011. There are many new pages not yet added there. 734 seems enough for a random experience, as all the new pages are linked from another place or two or three. But I'll probably add some more at some point. I can gather the links from here: http://aboutunschooling.blogspot.com
My site has writings collected from nearly two dozen of my favorite unschooling authors, so if those old articles were from some of those folks, the link was probably to something on my site, too. If it was an article that was in the Connections eZine, I saved out as many as I could grab before the site owner took her site down. If it was an article from the French site Chroniques De Louves, I have quite a few of those I reconstructed from files grabbed after it was deleted from the internet (retrieved with the WayBack Machine).
So a complaint about someone having sent links to old unschooling articles is offensive, and not just to me. It insults those who wrote the articles, and who saved them, and those who were nice enough to choose a good link to share with someone they thought might actually want to know more about unschooling and peaceful parenting. Nobody's getting paid to do that. Many people who were helped freely when they first needed information voluntarily hang out and help others.
Why would someone complain about that? It doesn't matter who complained. It's not about the person who complained. It's about the substance of the complaint. It's about the fact that someone did complain about that.
I hope it doesn't encourage anyone from sharing such links in the future.
Sandra
It didn't matter to me, and still doesn't, where that complaint was made (in public, in writing), nor by whom, nor about which discussion. The fact is that someone was dismissive, disdainful, of people sending links to articles. Articles published eight years ago. Eight's probably just a made-up number, which is fine. It could be twelve, or six, or two.
When people send links they're usually to something on my page or Joyce's. No matter what unschooling list or discussion was named, it's very likely that any eight-year-old links were from those sites.
Joyce's site has 145 pages. I know that because I made the random page generator she has there.
My site had 734 links when I last updated my random link generator in 2011. There are many new pages not yet added there. 734 seems enough for a random experience, as all the new pages are linked from another place or two or three. But I'll probably add some more at some point. I can gather the links from here: http://aboutunschooling.blogspot.com
My site has writings collected from nearly two dozen of my favorite unschooling authors, so if those old articles were from some of those folks, the link was probably to something on my site, too. If it was an article that was in the Connections eZine, I saved out as many as I could grab before the site owner took her site down. If it was an article from the French site Chroniques De Louves, I have quite a few of those I reconstructed from files grabbed after it was deleted from the internet (retrieved with the WayBack Machine).
So a complaint about someone having sent links to old unschooling articles is offensive, and not just to me. It insults those who wrote the articles, and who saved them, and those who were nice enough to choose a good link to share with someone they thought might actually want to know more about unschooling and peaceful parenting. Nobody's getting paid to do that. Many people who were helped freely when they first needed information voluntarily hang out and help others.
Why would someone complain about that? It doesn't matter who complained. It's not about the person who complained. It's about the substance of the complaint. It's about the fact that someone did complain about that.
I hope it doesn't encourage anyone from sharing such links in the future.
Sandra
Joyce Fetteroll
On Feb 25, 2013, at 11:09 PM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
The problem isn't people's reactions. It's their initial assumptions.
But those assumptions are natural. The assumptions will keep happening.
I find irritation at irritation irritating ;-) *unless* the purpose is to find a way to stop the irritation from happening. So if that isn't the purpose I'd better stop reading this thread so I can stop irritating myself! ;-)
I've definitely found value in discussing irritating behavior. I see groups differently now. And I can be a better member of groups because of it.
But the discussion has zero effect on the dozens of people who join over the next week. So the irritating behavior will continue. And the irritation with their irritating behavior!
So, maybe I'm mistaking your purpose. Maybe it isn't about fixing things.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> So a complaint about someone having sentIf someone assumes the group is social, more than a handful of "Here, read this," feels off-putting. It feels like, "You're not good enough to participate."
> links to old unschooling articles is offensive
The problem isn't people's reactions. It's their initial assumptions.
But those assumptions are natural. The assumptions will keep happening.
I find irritation at irritation irritating ;-) *unless* the purpose is to find a way to stop the irritation from happening. So if that isn't the purpose I'd better stop reading this thread so I can stop irritating myself! ;-)
I've definitely found value in discussing irritating behavior. I see groups differently now. And I can be a better member of groups because of it.
But the discussion has zero effect on the dozens of people who join over the next week. So the irritating behavior will continue. And the irritation with their irritating behavior!
So, maybe I'm mistaking your purpose. Maybe it isn't about fixing things.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Feb 25, 2013, at 10:16 AM, Jesse Lyon wrote:
http://sandradodd.com/unschooling
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/
Changing the Subject line to OT won't guarantee that someone won't say something profound in it! :-D
If some point gets said that hasn't been said before, Sandra will preserve it at her site. She makes announcements about the additions on one of her blogs. I think it's this one:
http://aboutunschooling.blogspot.com
You can subscribe to it and have the announcements sent by mail.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> At the very least could topics not directly having to do withIf you're afraid there might be some gems in a thread you're skipping, everything that is likely to be said anywhere on the list is already at Sandra's site or mine.
> unschooling (ie he said she said) be labelled OT for off topic
> so I can skip them?
http://sandradodd.com/unschooling
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/
Changing the Subject line to OT won't guarantee that someone won't say something profound in it! :-D
If some point gets said that hasn't been said before, Sandra will preserve it at her site. She makes announcements about the additions on one of her blogs. I think it's this one:
http://aboutunschooling.blogspot.com
You can subscribe to it and have the announcements sent by mail.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-But the discussion has zero effect on the dozens of people who join over the next week. So the irritating behavior will continue. And the irritation with their irritating behavior!
-=-So, maybe I'm mistaking your purpose. Maybe it isn't about fixing things.-=-
I don't want to "fix" sending links to people.
It's not a repeating problem that people complain about links, although once years back someone said she didn't have time to read, she didn't want to just read. But the whole discussion is in that format. :-) She just didn't want to read things that weren't written specifically for her.
-=-If someone assumes the group is social, more than a handful of "Here, read this," feels off-putting. It feels like, "You're not good enough to participate."-=-
"Participating" involves providing links to other people who might need them. Sometimes someone who's pretty new to the ideas can send a link and say "This made a difference to me." The gradual change page is sometimes sent by newish unschoolers.
-=-I find irritation at irritation irritating ;-) *unless* the purpose is to find a way to stop the irritation from happening. So if that isn't the purpose I'd better stop reading this thread so I can stop irritating myself! ;-)-=-
The best way for to stop being irritated would be to close this list down and the facebook page and to do other things. The second best way seemed to be to complain about churlish complaints. Then I'll be better in a day or two. I think I've earned the privilege of complaining a time or three a year, when provoked.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-=-So, maybe I'm mistaking your purpose. Maybe it isn't about fixing things.-=-
I don't want to "fix" sending links to people.
It's not a repeating problem that people complain about links, although once years back someone said she didn't have time to read, she didn't want to just read. But the whole discussion is in that format. :-) She just didn't want to read things that weren't written specifically for her.
-=-If someone assumes the group is social, more than a handful of "Here, read this," feels off-putting. It feels like, "You're not good enough to participate."-=-
"Participating" involves providing links to other people who might need them. Sometimes someone who's pretty new to the ideas can send a link and say "This made a difference to me." The gradual change page is sometimes sent by newish unschoolers.
-=-I find irritation at irritation irritating ;-) *unless* the purpose is to find a way to stop the irritation from happening. So if that isn't the purpose I'd better stop reading this thread so I can stop irritating myself! ;-)-=-
The best way for to stop being irritated would be to close this list down and the facebook page and to do other things. The second best way seemed to be to complain about churlish complaints. Then I'll be better in a day or two. I think I've earned the privilege of complaining a time or three a year, when provoked.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-If some point gets said that hasn't been said before, Sandra will preserve it at her site. She makes announcements about the additions on one of her blogs. I think it's this one:
http://aboutunschooling.blogspot.com
Not all of them. Gems go downstream with the rest of the flow.
Years ago, Pam said she felt my site was already too big, but people keep writing good things, and I have that packrat urge to save as much good stuff as I can successfully carry and stash. Like a crazed squirrel. :-)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
http://aboutunschooling.blogspot.com
Not all of them. Gems go downstream with the rest of the flow.
Years ago, Pam said she felt my site was already too big, but people keep writing good things, and I have that packrat urge to save as much good stuff as I can successfully carry and stash. Like a crazed squirrel. :-)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]