Video games. When does it become one of the many things they do?
lisathecelt
Good morning.
We are currently transitioning into unschooling and have had a pretty bumpy last 10 days. Prior to this we were homeschoolers, no curriculum, but we did set limits on tv and video games. After reading the Big Book of Unschooling and Free to Learn, we have let go quite a bit. It has been about 2 months or so.
I have 2 boys ages 8 and 5. Both have been enjoying Minecraft and other games immensely and I now see how much learning and joy is happening while they're playing. Here is where I am running into problems. My oldest transitions out of the game quite easily. When we are out and about he is having a good time and doesn't want to go home. My youngest for the last 10 days however, everywhere we went he was begging to go home so he could play. Over the weekend we had some really nice weather and went on a family hike, which is something we have always loved to do,but our youngest kept asking to go home and it made the day very tense. For the last couple of weeks no matter what we are doing he is asking to go home and play video games. My husband has been really kind and patient,but I can see that he is becoming irritated and his faith is waning. It is getting really hard to sell the idea of not setting limits, when we had more family harmony and peace when we had them. Any thoughts or experiences?
We are currently transitioning into unschooling and have had a pretty bumpy last 10 days. Prior to this we were homeschoolers, no curriculum, but we did set limits on tv and video games. After reading the Big Book of Unschooling and Free to Learn, we have let go quite a bit. It has been about 2 months or so.
I have 2 boys ages 8 and 5. Both have been enjoying Minecraft and other games immensely and I now see how much learning and joy is happening while they're playing. Here is where I am running into problems. My oldest transitions out of the game quite easily. When we are out and about he is having a good time and doesn't want to go home. My youngest for the last 10 days however, everywhere we went he was begging to go home so he could play. Over the weekend we had some really nice weather and went on a family hike, which is something we have always loved to do,but our youngest kept asking to go home and it made the day very tense. For the last couple of weeks no matter what we are doing he is asking to go home and play video games. My husband has been really kind and patient,but I can see that he is becoming irritated and his faith is waning. It is getting really hard to sell the idea of not setting limits, when we had more family harmony and peace when we had them. Any thoughts or experiences?
Sandra Dodd
-=-Over the weekend we had some really nice weather and went on a family hike, which is something we have always loved to do,but our youngest kept asking to go home and it made the day very tense.-=-
If "we" doesn't include everyone, it's not an honest "we."
The situation was created by limits. It can't be cured by limits. It can only be cured by his having his fill.
When an infant wants his mother, he will want her until HE decides he's had enough, that he is filled.
You made video games as valuable as gold. Hikes were cheap, but games were golden.
http://sandradodd.com/t/economics (article by Pam Sorooshian; it's also in The Big Book, but it might look different now that you've seen effects).
-=-For the last couple of weeks no matter what we are doing he is asking to go home and play video games. My husband has been really kind and patient,but I can see that he is becoming irritated and his faith is waning. It is getting really hard to sell the idea of not setting limits, when we had more family harmony and peace when we had them. Any thoughts or experiences?
-=-
In the one-month-per-year measurement for deschooling, ten days or a couple of weeks is nothing. Recovery doesn't happen because the parents change their minds. Recovery takes as long as it takes.
You had more family harmony and peace, and maybe you should have transitioned slowly ( http://sandradodd.com/gradualchange or page 8 in the big book, "Don't change your whole life suddenly." ). But you can still recover. You won't recover by reinstituting rules.
Your husband's faith can't wane. He doesn't have faith yet. He just has a happy idea, but it hasn't matured into personal understanding or conviction. He himself must deschool, and I'm assuming he was in school for twelve to twenty years. It will take you, and him, over a year of looking for natural ways of learning and of learning to see the value in choices and in learning to see what your children see in their various interests before you can really see through the eyes of an unschooling parent. It doesn't happen just because you decide, and that can't be changed by anybody or by anything.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
If "we" doesn't include everyone, it's not an honest "we."
The situation was created by limits. It can't be cured by limits. It can only be cured by his having his fill.
When an infant wants his mother, he will want her until HE decides he's had enough, that he is filled.
You made video games as valuable as gold. Hikes were cheap, but games were golden.
http://sandradodd.com/t/economics (article by Pam Sorooshian; it's also in The Big Book, but it might look different now that you've seen effects).
-=-For the last couple of weeks no matter what we are doing he is asking to go home and play video games. My husband has been really kind and patient,but I can see that he is becoming irritated and his faith is waning. It is getting really hard to sell the idea of not setting limits, when we had more family harmony and peace when we had them. Any thoughts or experiences?
-=-
In the one-month-per-year measurement for deschooling, ten days or a couple of weeks is nothing. Recovery doesn't happen because the parents change their minds. Recovery takes as long as it takes.
You had more family harmony and peace, and maybe you should have transitioned slowly ( http://sandradodd.com/gradualchange or page 8 in the big book, "Don't change your whole life suddenly." ). But you can still recover. You won't recover by reinstituting rules.
Your husband's faith can't wane. He doesn't have faith yet. He just has a happy idea, but it hasn't matured into personal understanding or conviction. He himself must deschool, and I'm assuming he was in school for twelve to twenty years. It will take you, and him, over a year of looking for natural ways of learning and of learning to see the value in choices and in learning to see what your children see in their various interests before you can really see through the eyes of an unschooling parent. It doesn't happen just because you decide, and that can't be changed by anybody or by anything.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
Ah. The actual question was in the subject line:
-=-Video games. When does it become one of the many things they do?-=-
Some time AFTER you stop measuring and counting. Never, ever while you're measuring and counting.
As long as your children fear that you will change your mind and go back to limits, they will gorge. It only makes sense. If you were hungry and there was suddenly "FREE FOOD! ALL YOU WANT!" you would eat more than you really wanted if you thought the offer was likely to end but if you were calmly confident that the food would always be available, you would gorge at first and slow down.
Sandra
-=-Video games. When does it become one of the many things they do?-=-
Some time AFTER you stop measuring and counting. Never, ever while you're measuring and counting.
As long as your children fear that you will change your mind and go back to limits, they will gorge. It only makes sense. If you were hungry and there was suddenly "FREE FOOD! ALL YOU WANT!" you would eat more than you really wanted if you thought the offer was likely to end but if you were calmly confident that the food would always be available, you would gorge at first and slow down.
Sandra
lisathecelt
I understand what you mean when you say this. And have heard you say it before. I guess I was looking for real life transition stories, because staying home indefinitely is not going to work for my eldest son or my husband.If I could offer my husband some real life experiences of how long the tranisition may take it might ease his mind a bit.
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd wrote:
>
> Ah. The actual question was in the subject line:
>
> -=-Video games. When does it become one of the many things they do?-=-
>
> Some time AFTER you stop measuring and counting. Never, ever while you're measuring and counting.
>
> As long as your children fear that you will change your mind and go back to limits, they will gorge. It only makes sense. If you were hungry and there was suddenly "FREE FOOD! ALL YOU WANT!" you would eat more than you really wanted if you thought the offer was likely to end but if you were calmly confident that the food would always be available, you would gorge at first and slow down.
>
> Sandra
>
Sandra Dodd
-=-I understand what you mean when you say this. And have heard you say it before. I guess I was looking for real life transition stories...-=-
I've been helping people understand unschooling since Kirby was five years old. He's twenty six now. I've gotten the play-by-play, the elation, the frustration of hundreds of real-life transition stories.
-=-...because staying home indefinitely is not going to work for my eldest son or my husband.-=-
But everything is indefinite. If you plan a hike a week for life, someone could have a temporary or permanent injury and be unable to go where there aren't wheelchair trails.
Life is indefinite.
For the short term, though, your husband and older son could go hiking and you could stay home with your younger son.
-=-If I could offer my husband some real life experiences of how long the tranisition may take it might ease his mind a bit.-=-
It WILL take longer than he wishes it would take. It could be forever/never, if he can't honestly and truly relax and accept that his son would rather, right now, play Minecraft than go on a hike. And that anything he says to shame or pressure will make it worse, not better.
If someone says "It only took us two months!" that won't mean anything for your own family. If that would cause your husband to mark a calendar and say "On March 23, you'll be wanting to go hiking," then that "real life experience" will hinder, rather than help you.
If someone else says "It took TWO YEARS," and if that would make your husband give up, then that "real life experience" would hinder, rather than help you.
We can tell you what will help and what will hurt, but we can't give you any guarantees (except that hurt always hurts).
http://sandradodd.com/parentingpeacefully might be useful, especially the part about making choices. You can't leap to the end, to the result. You can only move there one choice at a time.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I've been helping people understand unschooling since Kirby was five years old. He's twenty six now. I've gotten the play-by-play, the elation, the frustration of hundreds of real-life transition stories.
-=-...because staying home indefinitely is not going to work for my eldest son or my husband.-=-
But everything is indefinite. If you plan a hike a week for life, someone could have a temporary or permanent injury and be unable to go where there aren't wheelchair trails.
Life is indefinite.
For the short term, though, your husband and older son could go hiking and you could stay home with your younger son.
-=-If I could offer my husband some real life experiences of how long the tranisition may take it might ease his mind a bit.-=-
It WILL take longer than he wishes it would take. It could be forever/never, if he can't honestly and truly relax and accept that his son would rather, right now, play Minecraft than go on a hike. And that anything he says to shame or pressure will make it worse, not better.
If someone says "It only took us two months!" that won't mean anything for your own family. If that would cause your husband to mark a calendar and say "On March 23, you'll be wanting to go hiking," then that "real life experience" will hinder, rather than help you.
If someone else says "It took TWO YEARS," and if that would make your husband give up, then that "real life experience" would hinder, rather than help you.
We can tell you what will help and what will hurt, but we can't give you any guarantees (except that hurt always hurts).
http://sandradodd.com/parentingpeacefully might be useful, especially the part about making choices. You can't leap to the end, to the result. You can only move there one choice at a time.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robert and Colleen
****because staying home indefinitely is not going to work for my eldest son
or my husband.****
Then can your eldest son and husband go out and go hiking or enjoy whatever
they're into at the moment, while you stay home with your younger son so he
can pursue what he's interested in?
My 9 year old goes through periods where he loves to be out-and-about, and
he wants to go to playgrounds, explore wildlife centers, hike, tour through
cemeteries, go birding and search for Bald Eagles and Snowy Owls, go to the
beach, play with friends, etc. He has other times where Home is where he
wants to be - and he wants to play video games, build legos, watch Star Trek
Next Generation, hang out and play board games, etc.
Sometimes when he wants to stay home, it's a day my husband and I would like
to go out. But forcing our son to go somewhere when he doesn't want to, or
wheedling at him until he reluctantly agrees to go, wouldn't feel very good
at all - it might get him out of the house, but it wouldn't make him happy.
And his happiness is our priority. So we find the joy in being home - if
our son wants to play alone, we find something to do, like rent a movie or
find a new app to download or paint the bathroom :-) - if he wants us to
play or watch TV etc. with him, we do. Home and Not Home are both equally
valuable when it comes to opportunities for learning and fun :-)
If your youngest son is happy at home, then the more you can support that,
the more peaceful and happy your relationship can be.
Colleen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
or my husband.****
Then can your eldest son and husband go out and go hiking or enjoy whatever
they're into at the moment, while you stay home with your younger son so he
can pursue what he's interested in?
My 9 year old goes through periods where he loves to be out-and-about, and
he wants to go to playgrounds, explore wildlife centers, hike, tour through
cemeteries, go birding and search for Bald Eagles and Snowy Owls, go to the
beach, play with friends, etc. He has other times where Home is where he
wants to be - and he wants to play video games, build legos, watch Star Trek
Next Generation, hang out and play board games, etc.
Sometimes when he wants to stay home, it's a day my husband and I would like
to go out. But forcing our son to go somewhere when he doesn't want to, or
wheedling at him until he reluctantly agrees to go, wouldn't feel very good
at all - it might get him out of the house, but it wouldn't make him happy.
And his happiness is our priority. So we find the joy in being home - if
our son wants to play alone, we find something to do, like rent a movie or
find a new app to download or paint the bathroom :-) - if he wants us to
play or watch TV etc. with him, we do. Home and Not Home are both equally
valuable when it comes to opportunities for learning and fun :-)
If your youngest son is happy at home, then the more you can support that,
the more peaceful and happy your relationship can be.
Colleen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
lisathecelt
That is mostly how we do things, but we had been home for a very long time, bad weather and my husband had a health scare. I really wanted some fresh air as well, and I also felt like he would have regretted not being with his dad and brother after an hour or too. It has been known to happen. We do split up sometimes, but when my husband is at work that is not an option.
The hour or so since I typed my initial post, I have had time to think, and I also think that maybe he feels too often like he is along for the ride. I'm going to work on that as well. My eldest has an archery class at 1:00 that he would be crushed if he missed, so I promised my youngest that I would take him to a new Lego store called Bricks and Minifigs while his brother is in Archery. He got really excited. I'm am trying to find ways to make sure everyone's needs are met without exerting control. Thanks for all the advice.
The hour or so since I typed my initial post, I have had time to think, and I also think that maybe he feels too often like he is along for the ride. I'm going to work on that as well. My eldest has an archery class at 1:00 that he would be crushed if he missed, so I promised my youngest that I would take him to a new Lego store called Bricks and Minifigs while his brother is in Archery. He got really excited. I'm am trying to find ways to make sure everyone's needs are met without exerting control. Thanks for all the advice.
--- In [email protected], "Robert and Colleen" <3potatoes@...> wrote:
>
> ****because staying home indefinitely is not going to work for my eldest son
> or my husband.****
>
>
>
> Then can your eldest son and husband go out and go hiking or enjoy whatever
> they're into at the moment, while you stay home with your younger son so he
> can pursue what he's interested in?
>
>
>
> My 9 year old goes through periods where he loves to be out-and-about, and
> he wants to go to playgrounds, explore wildlife centers, hike, tour through
> cemeteries, go birding and search for Bald Eagles and Snowy Owls, go to the
> beach, play with friends, etc. He has other times where Home is where he
> wants to be - and he wants to play video games, build legos, watch Star Trek
> Next Generation, hang out and play board games, etc.
>
>
>
> Sometimes when he wants to stay home, it's a day my husband and I would like
> to go out. But forcing our son to go somewhere when he doesn't want to, or
> wheedling at him until he reluctantly agrees to go, wouldn't feel very good
> at all - it might get him out of the house, but it wouldn't make him happy.
> And his happiness is our priority. So we find the joy in being home - if
> our son wants to play alone, we find something to do, like rent a movie or
> find a new app to download or paint the bathroom :-) - if he wants us to
> play or watch TV etc. with him, we do. Home and Not Home are both equally
> valuable when it comes to opportunities for learning and fun :-)
>
>
>
> If your youngest son is happy at home, then the more you can support that,
> the more peaceful and happy your relationship can be.
>
>
>
> Colleen
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
lisathecelt
Thanks for working through this with me Sandra. Just putting it out there is clearing my head and getting me back to using the principles of Unschooling to navigate through this.
Cheers, Lisa
Cheers, Lisa
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd wrote:
>
> -=-I understand what you mean when you say this. And have heard you say it before. I guess I was looking for real life transition stories...-=-
>
> I've been helping people understand unschooling since Kirby was five years old. He's twenty six now. I've gotten the play-by-play, the elation, the frustration of hundreds of real-life transition stories.
>
> -=-...because staying home indefinitely is not going to work for my eldest son or my husband.-=-
>
> But everything is indefinite. If you plan a hike a week for life, someone could have a temporary or permanent injury and be unable to go where there aren't wheelchair trails.
>
> Life is indefinite.
>
> For the short term, though, your husband and older son could go hiking and you could stay home with your younger son.
>
> -=-If I could offer my husband some real life experiences of how long the tranisition may take it might ease his mind a bit.-=-
>
> It WILL take longer than he wishes it would take. It could be forever/never, if he can't honestly and truly relax and accept that his son would rather, right now, play Minecraft than go on a hike. And that anything he says to shame or pressure will make it worse, not better.
>
> If someone says "It only took us two months!" that won't mean anything for your own family. If that would cause your husband to mark a calendar and say "On March 23, you'll be wanting to go hiking," then that "real life experience" will hinder, rather than help you.
>
> If someone else says "It took TWO YEARS," and if that would make your husband give up, then that "real life experience" would hinder, rather than help you.
>
> We can tell you what will help and what will hurt, but we can't give you any guarantees (except that hurt always hurts).
>
> http://sandradodd.com/parentingpeacefully might be useful, especially the part about making choices. You can't leap to the end, to the result. You can only move there one choice at a time.
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Vicki Dennis
Your husband and eldest son have no need to stay home indefinitely. Nor
do I think you need give up enjoying being with them in outdoor
activities. Can you get a babysitter to stay at your home with the
younger one and his video games? Making it extremely clear to the
babysitter that he/she must not interfere with the gameplaying. It could
well be that he does not want others to go places without him but your
eldest also needs his needs given credit.
There is no way to know how long the transition might take but it will
certainly not be sped up by having a parent on the sideline with a
stopwatch.
vicki
do I think you need give up enjoying being with them in outdoor
activities. Can you get a babysitter to stay at your home with the
younger one and his video games? Making it extremely clear to the
babysitter that he/she must not interfere with the gameplaying. It could
well be that he does not want others to go places without him but your
eldest also needs his needs given credit.
There is no way to know how long the transition might take but it will
certainly not be sped up by having a parent on the sideline with a
stopwatch.
vicki
On Wed, Jan 23, 2013 at 9:58 AM, lisathecelt <lisathecelt@...> wrote:
> **
>
>
> I understand what you mean when you say this. And have heard you say it
> before. I guess I was looking for real life transition stories, because
> staying home indefinitely is not going to work for my eldest son or my
> husband.If I could offer my husband some real life experiences of how long
> the tranisition may take it might ease his mind a bit.
>
>
> --- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd wrote:
> >
> > Ah. The actual question was in the subject line:
> >
> > -=-Video games. When does it become one of the many things they do?-=-
> >
> > Some time AFTER you stop measuring and counting. Never, ever while
> you're measuring and counting.
> >
> > As long as your children fear that you will change your mind and go back
> to limits, they will gorge. It only makes sense. If you were hungry and
> there was suddenly "FREE FOOD! ALL YOU WANT!" you would eat more than you
> really wanted if you thought the offer was likely to end but if you were
> calmly confident that the food would always be available, you would gorge
> at first and slow down.
> >
> > Sandra
> >
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-The hour or so since I typed my initial post, I have had time to think, and I also think that maybe he feels too often like he is along for the ride. -=-
You have days, weeks, months and years to think. But you only live in moments.
http://sandradodd.com/moment
Don't spend too many moments writing here when you could be thinking, and trying the ideas out.
Very, very important:
Read a little, try a little, wait a while, watch.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
You have days, weeks, months and years to think. But you only live in moments.
http://sandradodd.com/moment
Don't spend too many moments writing here when you could be thinking, and trying the ideas out.
Very, very important:
Read a little, try a little, wait a while, watch.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Virginia Warren
-=-
staying home indefinitely is not going to work for my eldest son or my
husband. If I could offer my husband some real life experiences of how long
the transition may take it might ease his mind a bit.
I think that if you have some specific goal in mind that he is
"transitioning to" where there is some "correct" amount of video gaming
that is acceptable to your sensibilities, the answer is probably never. His
transition is coming to believe that he can play Minecraft to his own
satisfaction, and it is as good as going for a hike.
Your transition is seeing him play and not wishing for him to do something
else. It is easier if you like games. :-) I love games, and have my whole
life, and I still wildly underestimated how beneficial games would be to my
children. My husband loves games, spends much of his "copious free time"
playing games, plus a lot of sweet family time playing games, and he still
occasionally grumbles that "all they do is play games". I think he's
jealous. :-) I'm not trying to say it's easy, just that it's worth it.
Fortunately, Minecraft is an easy game to like. It is also much more than a
game. It is an amazing infinite animated (self) extensible and programmable
Lego kit that never hurts your feet in the dark of night. It is a community
of mostly self-taught volunteer programmers and artists making new game
content for each other and the world, for the joy of it, for free. But it
was originally created by one person, working alone.
If I wrote a list of the things my kids have learned because of playing
Minecraft, you would think I was exaggerating. My eight year old daughter
will be able to acquire the professional skill set of my 40 year old
husband, if she chooses, entirely through her interest in Minecraft.
I have been working on correcting the problems I have created by attempting
to control food and I have come to believe that my kids can tell when I'm
being with them while wishing they were different somehow, even if I don't
say a word, even if I don't frown, or sigh, and really, what are the
chances of that? :-)
Virginia
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I understand what you mean when you say this. And have heard you say itbefore. I guess I was looking for real life transition stories, because
staying home indefinitely is not going to work for my eldest son or my
husband. If I could offer my husband some real life experiences of how long
the transition may take it might ease his mind a bit.
>-=-
I think that if you have some specific goal in mind that he is
"transitioning to" where there is some "correct" amount of video gaming
that is acceptable to your sensibilities, the answer is probably never. His
transition is coming to believe that he can play Minecraft to his own
satisfaction, and it is as good as going for a hike.
Your transition is seeing him play and not wishing for him to do something
else. It is easier if you like games. :-) I love games, and have my whole
life, and I still wildly underestimated how beneficial games would be to my
children. My husband loves games, spends much of his "copious free time"
playing games, plus a lot of sweet family time playing games, and he still
occasionally grumbles that "all they do is play games". I think he's
jealous. :-) I'm not trying to say it's easy, just that it's worth it.
Fortunately, Minecraft is an easy game to like. It is also much more than a
game. It is an amazing infinite animated (self) extensible and programmable
Lego kit that never hurts your feet in the dark of night. It is a community
of mostly self-taught volunteer programmers and artists making new game
content for each other and the world, for the joy of it, for free. But it
was originally created by one person, working alone.
If I wrote a list of the things my kids have learned because of playing
Minecraft, you would think I was exaggerating. My eight year old daughter
will be able to acquire the professional skill set of my 40 year old
husband, if she chooses, entirely through her interest in Minecraft.
I have been working on correcting the problems I have created by attempting
to control food and I have come to believe that my kids can tell when I'm
being with them while wishing they were different somehow, even if I don't
say a word, even if I don't frown, or sigh, and really, what are the
chances of that? :-)
Virginia
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
phoebience
I thought that I would come out of the woodwork to comment on this thread as I have felt the same way on our path of radical unschooling.
I have an 8 and 4-year-old, my partner went to a self-paced middle/high school, and I am constantly deschooling myself.
We have 2 laptops, 2 iPhones, and a tablet. We explore media all day, video games, movies, app's, books, music. I use to have a difficult time transitioning out of the house when the kids did not have an option to stay home (Dad working on coding or at meetings) because they were into a movie and didn't want to leave it, or playing an awesome part of the game, and wanted to continue. I started showing them that we have mobility, and how to live with technology. They use our iPhones while we drive (we live about 20 minutes outside of Ithaca, NY), or we use the laptops in the car.
We all struggle with the sounds sometimes. We have headphones as an option to give other people quiet space, or we sometimes make a request to have no media for a little bit until we get to the ridge near our house when we are all needing to connect with one another.
It takes some time to "allow" yourself to let go of limits on media.
Cheers,
Phoebe
I have an 8 and 4-year-old, my partner went to a self-paced middle/high school, and I am constantly deschooling myself.
We have 2 laptops, 2 iPhones, and a tablet. We explore media all day, video games, movies, app's, books, music. I use to have a difficult time transitioning out of the house when the kids did not have an option to stay home (Dad working on coding or at meetings) because they were into a movie and didn't want to leave it, or playing an awesome part of the game, and wanted to continue. I started showing them that we have mobility, and how to live with technology. They use our iPhones while we drive (we live about 20 minutes outside of Ithaca, NY), or we use the laptops in the car.
We all struggle with the sounds sometimes. We have headphones as an option to give other people quiet space, or we sometimes make a request to have no media for a little bit until we get to the ridge near our house when we are all needing to connect with one another.
It takes some time to "allow" yourself to let go of limits on media.
Cheers,
Phoebe
--- In [email protected], "lisathecelt" wrote:
>
> Good morning.
>
> We are currently transitioning into unschooling and have had a pretty bumpy last 10 days. Prior to this we were homeschoolers, no curriculum, but we did set limits on tv and video games. After reading the Big Book of Unschooling and Free to Learn, we have let go quite a bit. It has been about 2 months or so.
>
> I have 2 boys ages 8 and 5. Both have been enjoying Minecraft and other games immensely and I now see how much learning and joy is happening while they're playing. Here is where I am running into problems. My oldest transitions out of the game quite easily. When we are out and about he is having a good time and doesn't want to go home. My youngest for the last 10 days however, everywhere we went he was begging to go home so he could play. Over the weekend we had some really nice weather and went on a family hike, which is something we have always loved to do,but our youngest kept asking to go home and it made the day very tense. For the last couple of weeks no matter what we are doing he is asking to go home and play video games. My husband has been really kind and patient,but I can see that he is becoming irritated and his faith is waning. It is getting really hard to sell the idea of not setting limits, when we had more family harmony and peace when we had them. Any thoughts or experiences?
>
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
Can your older son and husband go hiking while you stay with your son home?
We do a lot of tag teaming around here!
Alex Polikowsky
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We do a lot of tag teaming around here!
Alex Polikowsky
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Meredith
"lisathecelt" wrote:
Would he like a hand-held game - a DS or something of the kind? That could be a way for him to play all the games he wants while the rest of the family gets to be out and about.
But it also may be that your son doesn't want to be out and about as much as you do - that's he's really happier to be in his own space doing his thing. It may be a transitional thing - he's nesting while he's healing. Or it may be the first time he's felt like he could actually tell you what was really important to him.
"We" statements about families like that are problematic. My parents would have said the same thing... except *I* didn't love to hike. I put up with it because it was what "we" the family did, and most of the time I made the best of it. And over time I built up layers and layers of frustration and resentment.
I still don't like hiking. It's hard to do fun things while hiking. It's hard to read, or play games, or work on a project and so you're stuck plodding along, bored and frustrated while the hours slip away, wasted with pointless walking. I'd rather sit someplace lovely with a book or game or project than hike. Maybe your son feels the same way! Can you arrange for him to be home with a sitter while y'all go hiking? Or visit a friend and play some 2-player games while you're out.
Rather than trying to figure out how to squash him back into the box, rethink the way you approach things as a family. If hiking has been the way to bond, look for ways which work for your son - maybe he hasn't been bonding! Maybe he's just been complying and putting a good face on things - kids are good at that.
Rather than try to get him to like what you do, see what he enjoys, join him where he is and see his pleasures and triumphs and challenges. Value him for who he is right now instead of who you hope he'll be. Right now, he's someone who loves to play games - what games? Read about them, find out about the characters, related games, movies, shows, comics, fan fiction. Expand your mind and open your heart so that you can create a more peaceful home that includes your child's values as well as your own.
---Meredith
>My youngest for the last 10 days however, everywhere we went he was begging to go home so he could play.*************
Would he like a hand-held game - a DS or something of the kind? That could be a way for him to play all the games he wants while the rest of the family gets to be out and about.
But it also may be that your son doesn't want to be out and about as much as you do - that's he's really happier to be in his own space doing his thing. It may be a transitional thing - he's nesting while he's healing. Or it may be the first time he's felt like he could actually tell you what was really important to him.
>Over the weekend we had some really nice weather and went on a family hike, which is something we have always loved to do**************
"We" statements about families like that are problematic. My parents would have said the same thing... except *I* didn't love to hike. I put up with it because it was what "we" the family did, and most of the time I made the best of it. And over time I built up layers and layers of frustration and resentment.
>>but our youngest kept asking to go home and it made the day very tensePoor guy - stuck doing something he didn't want to do all day, and no-one caring about his feelings, only that they "made the day very tense".
I still don't like hiking. It's hard to do fun things while hiking. It's hard to read, or play games, or work on a project and so you're stuck plodding along, bored and frustrated while the hours slip away, wasted with pointless walking. I'd rather sit someplace lovely with a book or game or project than hike. Maybe your son feels the same way! Can you arrange for him to be home with a sitter while y'all go hiking? Or visit a friend and play some 2-player games while you're out.
Rather than trying to figure out how to squash him back into the box, rethink the way you approach things as a family. If hiking has been the way to bond, look for ways which work for your son - maybe he hasn't been bonding! Maybe he's just been complying and putting a good face on things - kids are good at that.
Rather than try to get him to like what you do, see what he enjoys, join him where he is and see his pleasures and triumphs and challenges. Value him for who he is right now instead of who you hope he'll be. Right now, he's someone who loves to play games - what games? Read about them, find out about the characters, related games, movies, shows, comics, fan fiction. Expand your mind and open your heart so that you can create a more peaceful home that includes your child's values as well as your own.
---Meredith
Meredith
Vicki Dennis wrote:
---Meredith
>Can you get a babysitter to stay at your home with theHeck, hire a teen who likes to play video games - best babysitting job ever!
> younger one and his video games? Making it extremely clear to the
> babysitter that he/she must not interfere with the gameplaying.
---Meredith
Schuyler
How long will the transition take? It will take as long as it takes. Maybe video games will fill your son up for years. Maybe his whole life he will be a video gamer. That doesn't mean he won't enjoy other things, he won't come back to the idea that going for a hike is a wonderful thing, but it may be a while before he can choose to walk away from this wondrous and rich pleasure. Get your family a couple of hand held gaming systems. You can get older ones used, probably on Craigs list or, more certainly, on ebay, or even at a local gaming store and it will probably come with a warranty. That way when you do go out, your youngest will have a gaming connection to keep him engaged while the rest of you get your fill of a day out. You could get an ipad, maybe. See it as an educational expense, if it's within your budget to do so.
Simon usually has his ipod with him when we go out. He removes it when he's in conversation with people, but in the moments when we are moving through something that isn't interesting to him he can be listening to whatever book it is he's listening to at that time.
If you want someone else to go along with your plans it helps to make your plans appealing for them. Make it easy for the other person to come along. Offer something special just for them. When Simon was little and we wanted to go and do something out, he's never been much for leaving home, we would let him pick a pokemon figure from this fabulous store in Kyoto to make it special for him. We would stop and get ice cream. We would try and make sure that there was something that he really wanted within the day. Sometimes it wouldn't work. Sometimes the lures to go out weren't greater than the joy of staying home. So, sometimes we didn't go.
The sometimes you don't go thing, is a hard thing to take. You are the adult. You want to go and do this thing. Why can't you go and do this thing?!! Maybe when you feel like your parade is being rained upon, you could think about the wonder that it is to be able to give into someone else's desires. It sounds like a kind of martyrdom, but it isn't. One of my favourite meals that I don't like is pizza. Everyone in my family likes pizza, except me. I make a sourdough crust that takes 4 to 6 days to come to fruition and spend the evening rolling out crusts and prebaking them to be topped up with whatever toppings each person wants and then I get to have my own meal choice. I don't have to eat the pizza! Which is why I love pizza night. I don't have to clean my plate. I don't have to eat what's on the menu. I don't have to partake of that which I don't want to. And when I think of the pleasure I get from that, allowing someone else the pleasure of not going
for a walk is a very generous thing and a thing I can give.
Schuyler
________________________________
From: lisathecelt <lisathecelt@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, 24 January 2013, 1:58
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Video games. When does it become one of the many things they do?
I understand what you mean when you say this. And have heard you say it before. I guess I was looking for real life transition stories, because staying home indefinitely is not going to work for my eldest son or my husband.If I could offer my husband some real life experiences of how long the tranisition may take it might ease his mind a bit.
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Simon usually has his ipod with him when we go out. He removes it when he's in conversation with people, but in the moments when we are moving through something that isn't interesting to him he can be listening to whatever book it is he's listening to at that time.
If you want someone else to go along with your plans it helps to make your plans appealing for them. Make it easy for the other person to come along. Offer something special just for them. When Simon was little and we wanted to go and do something out, he's never been much for leaving home, we would let him pick a pokemon figure from this fabulous store in Kyoto to make it special for him. We would stop and get ice cream. We would try and make sure that there was something that he really wanted within the day. Sometimes it wouldn't work. Sometimes the lures to go out weren't greater than the joy of staying home. So, sometimes we didn't go.
The sometimes you don't go thing, is a hard thing to take. You are the adult. You want to go and do this thing. Why can't you go and do this thing?!! Maybe when you feel like your parade is being rained upon, you could think about the wonder that it is to be able to give into someone else's desires. It sounds like a kind of martyrdom, but it isn't. One of my favourite meals that I don't like is pizza. Everyone in my family likes pizza, except me. I make a sourdough crust that takes 4 to 6 days to come to fruition and spend the evening rolling out crusts and prebaking them to be topped up with whatever toppings each person wants and then I get to have my own meal choice. I don't have to eat the pizza! Which is why I love pizza night. I don't have to clean my plate. I don't have to eat what's on the menu. I don't have to partake of that which I don't want to. And when I think of the pleasure I get from that, allowing someone else the pleasure of not going
for a walk is a very generous thing and a thing I can give.
Schuyler
________________________________
From: lisathecelt <lisathecelt@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, 24 January 2013, 1:58
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Video games. When does it become one of the many things they do?
I understand what you mean when you say this. And have heard you say it before. I guess I was looking for real life transition stories, because staying home indefinitely is not going to work for my eldest son or my husband.If I could offer my husband some real life experiences of how long the tranisition may take it might ease his mind a bit.
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Sandra Dodd
-=-Maybe video games will fill your son up for years. Maybe his whole life he will be a video gamer. That doesn't mean he won't enjoy other things, he won't come back to the idea that going for a hike is a wonderful thing, but it may be a while before he can choose to walk away from this wondrous and rich pleasure.-=-
Our son could play all the games he wanted. When he was really little, we only had computer games, but when he was four or five, we got him a Nintendo (NES, with Mario and Duckhunt). As new Nintendo systems came out, we got them for Christmas or his birthday. His brother, Marty, saved money and bought a Playstation. Games were everywhere.
They also played board games, table games, collectible card games. Kirby worked at a gaming store, volunteering at first, and paid from the time he turned 14, where it had nothing at all to do with video games. He would play video games at home.
Fast forward another dozen years, he has a really good job for Blizzard Entertainment, an online games company. All his game playing prepared him for his current career. He's a supervisor and coaches a couple of dozen workers to be happy at work, and to do well.
Sandra
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Our son could play all the games he wanted. When he was really little, we only had computer games, but when he was four or five, we got him a Nintendo (NES, with Mario and Duckhunt). As new Nintendo systems came out, we got them for Christmas or his birthday. His brother, Marty, saved money and bought a Playstation. Games were everywhere.
They also played board games, table games, collectible card games. Kirby worked at a gaming store, volunteering at first, and paid from the time he turned 14, where it had nothing at all to do with video games. He would play video games at home.
Fast forward another dozen years, he has a really good job for Blizzard Entertainment, an online games company. All his game playing prepared him for his current career. He's a supervisor and coaches a couple of dozen workers to be happy at work, and to do well.
Sandra
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Sandra Dodd
-=-I think that if you have some specific goal in mind that he is
"transitioning to" where there is some "correct" amount of video gaming
that is acceptable to your sensibilities, the answer is probably never. -=-
Virginia, that's a good point, beautifully articulated.
No one has used the word, but I want to mention the idea some parents have of "self-regulation." They think that unschoolers whose limits and rules are lifted will create their own rules and limits and, if unschooling is worth a damn, the limits will look nearly like what the parents wanted in the first place.
"Regulation" is about rules and measures.
While the children are playing as much or as littls as they want to, the parents should be really changing their beliefs and prejudices, and trying to feel whether they think they are tired, or hungry. If they're hungry, hungry for what? Why? What do they want to do? Why? Many adults have never made choices based on real, immediate personal preferences, but have lived by calendars and clocks and menus and traditions without options or analysis of what they're doing and why.
http://sandradodd.com/self-regulation
Sandra
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"transitioning to" where there is some "correct" amount of video gaming
that is acceptable to your sensibilities, the answer is probably never. -=-
Virginia, that's a good point, beautifully articulated.
No one has used the word, but I want to mention the idea some parents have of "self-regulation." They think that unschoolers whose limits and rules are lifted will create their own rules and limits and, if unschooling is worth a damn, the limits will look nearly like what the parents wanted in the first place.
"Regulation" is about rules and measures.
While the children are playing as much or as littls as they want to, the parents should be really changing their beliefs and prejudices, and trying to feel whether they think they are tired, or hungry. If they're hungry, hungry for what? Why? What do they want to do? Why? Many adults have never made choices based on real, immediate personal preferences, but have lived by calendars and clocks and menus and traditions without options or analysis of what they're doing and why.
http://sandradodd.com/self-regulation
Sandra
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Sandra Dodd
-=-We have headphones as an option to give other people quiet space, or we sometimes make a request to have no media for a little bit until we get to the ridge near our house when we are all needing to connect with one another. -=-
"Media" used in this context is like "screen time."
To say "we make a request" and "when we are all needing to connect" sounds to me (I could be wrong) like the mom makes a request because she thinks people need to connect.
If a child is playing a game with the sound off, or headphones, that wouldn't make disturbing noise.
People wouldn't restrict paper time (no books, no magazines, no tissues, no writing on paper, no drawing on paper).
People don't restrict cloth time (you slept with covers, and you've worn clothes, so you don't need to play with a cloth tent right now; that's enough cloth time.
"Media" isn't a good term for the whole range of music, spoken word, games, art, research materials and e-mail from grandma that can be accessed on a tablet or laptop.
Sandra
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"Media" used in this context is like "screen time."
To say "we make a request" and "when we are all needing to connect" sounds to me (I could be wrong) like the mom makes a request because she thinks people need to connect.
If a child is playing a game with the sound off, or headphones, that wouldn't make disturbing noise.
People wouldn't restrict paper time (no books, no magazines, no tissues, no writing on paper, no drawing on paper).
People don't restrict cloth time (you slept with covers, and you've worn clothes, so you don't need to play with a cloth tent right now; that's enough cloth time.
"Media" isn't a good term for the whole range of music, spoken word, games, art, research materials and e-mail from grandma that can be accessed on a tablet or laptop.
Sandra
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phoebience
"Media" used in this context is like "screen time."
As of lately our 8yo stays home with Dad exploring Spore, and minecraft building elaborate worlds and creatures.
What do you call it when you reference computer technology? Just say "computer technology"...that is what is being held onto by the parents, maybe I didn't choose an appropriate word to classify "media". I understand that the availability of these resources are part of everyday accessibility such as spoken word. I am still trying to understand our relationship with it and see the balance as each individuals needs as their own.
I am feeling good about our relationship with our individual Darma in everyday. It is flowing and changing and continues to build bond and nurture us all.
I also have to say that being open to radical unschooling and changing ones life has helped the inner child in me heal so much! Thank you Sandra for opening my mind and making me think more deeply!
~
Phoebe
---
> To say "we make a request" and "when we are all needing to connect" sounds to me (I could be wrong) like the mom makes a request because she thinks people need to connect.Maybe *I* am the one desiring to connect and usually it is met with open arms. If it isn't I may feel disappointed BUT I understand and know it will happen individually at some point. I usually want to prepare everyone for errands or stops that I have planned, so no one is surprised and to check and see if anyone has any requests of stops.
As of lately our 8yo stays home with Dad exploring Spore, and minecraft building elaborate worlds and creatures.
What do you call it when you reference computer technology? Just say "computer technology"...that is what is being held onto by the parents, maybe I didn't choose an appropriate word to classify "media". I understand that the availability of these resources are part of everyday accessibility such as spoken word. I am still trying to understand our relationship with it and see the balance as each individuals needs as their own.
I am feeling good about our relationship with our individual Darma in everyday. It is flowing and changing and continues to build bond and nurture us all.
I also have to say that being open to radical unschooling and changing ones life has helped the inner child in me heal so much! Thank you Sandra for opening my mind and making me think more deeply!
~
Phoebe
---
Karen
>>>>>My oldest transitions out of the game quite easily. When we are out and about he is having a good time and doesn't want to go home. My youngest for the last 10 days however, everywhere we went he was begging to go home so he could play. <<<<<It might help to look at a prejudice here. You are saying that it is acceptable that your oldest son is disappointed to have to go home because he is having so much fun being "out and about", but it is unacceptable that your youngest son wants to stay home because he is having so much fun playing video games.
>>>>>Over the weekend we had some really nice weather and went on a family hike, which is something we have always loved to do,but our youngest kept asking to go home and it made the day very tense.<<<<<You are pitting your youngest son against all of the other members of the family because of his desire to return home and explore his new passion. That seems harsh to me. My husband works on projects for years, with some very intense periods where he really dives in deep. Sometimes I talk him into doing something with Ethan and I when he would really prefer to continue on his project. As we're out and about, his mind is clearly on his work. I don't push it. I thank him for the time he has spent with us, and we head home. He returns to his project. He doesn't make the whole day tense by preferring to be doing something other than what I would like him to be doing. Maybe for a moment I'm a bit bummed. But that's just a moment. Not a whole tense, ruined day. I'm reminded of Sandra's Moments page, as I type (http://sandradodd.com/moment).
>>>>>For the last couple of weeks no matter what we are doing he is asking to go home and play video games.<<<<<Some people really like to dive into the things they are interested in. Both my husband and my son are like that. Two weeks to explore a new passion is really not a lot of time. Give him more of what he is interested in. There are some fun Minecraft fridge magnets (http://www.thinkgeek.com/product/e7fa/). We got our son and his friend Minecraft tshirts. There are some fun Minecraft papercrafts you can print yourself and assemble (http://minecraftpapercraft.com/). The Minecraft Wiki is a goldmine of information the two of you could perhaps explore together, not to mention Minecraft Youtube videos. Get yourself an account and play with your son. It's a fantastic game! The three of you could go on our family server together if you would like. If so, email me separately and I will pass on our IP address. Unschoolers Creative Minecraft City is a great server to explore together as well (http://www.icomputerz.net/).
When your son sees that you truly care about his interests, without comparison, and without measurement, he will be more likely to grow to care about your interests as well as his brother's and his dad's. This is a great quote by Deb Lewis: "Power struggles can disappear when the person with the power stops struggling." Be his partner. Support his interests. That generosity on your part will not go unnoticed. Your example is what he is looking to learn from.
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jan 23, 2013, at 11:01 PM, phoebience wrote:
Stop looking at the door. See the richness that exists beyond the door.
(An additional part of the problem is the body isn't doing vastly different things even though the brain is. But the body doesn't do vastly different things when reading, either. Reading Stephen Hawking's A Brief History of Time isn't the same experience as reading Fifty Shades of Grey. (Except maybe to a theoretical physicist ;-)
What will help in a broader way is:
1) don't see the family as having needs. A family is a collection of individuals with individual needs. One of the hats you'll wear as an unschooling mom is being attuned to what each needs. (Including your husband. Including you too!) Sometimes meeting individual needs can be done by rallying the troops to all do something fun together. But don't depend on that. It's cool when it happens :-) But it's also easy and convenient which means it can be tempting to ignore that one may not be as happy.
2) don't confuse your needs with the needs of the individuals in your family. As an adult you have the power to meet your own needs. You have the power to manipulate the physical world, to infuse a different mood into the atmosphere (though not to control what it does to others!) If one solution doesn't work, try another. Don't turn your first choice into the new problem. If you need to connect, don't let it all ride on one way. Which turns getting everyone to comply with your solution into the new problem. If one way doesn't work, build up a storehouse of other solutions you can try. Don't let your happiness ride on other people doing what you want them to do. Don't make your family responsible for meeting your needs.
Joyce
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> What do you call it when you reference computer technology? ...Sandra's point is it isn't an "it". A computer, a hand held game, an iPod are doors that lead to a vast world of experiences. Just as your front door leads to a vast world of many different things you can do. Would you refer to all the things your family does by going through your front door -- walks, shopping, visiting friends. mowing the lawn, vacations -- as "door stuff"?
> I am still trying to understand our relationship with it
> I am still trying to understand our relationship with itDo you need to understand your relationship with "door stuff"?
Stop looking at the door. See the richness that exists beyond the door.
(An additional part of the problem is the body isn't doing vastly different things even though the brain is. But the body doesn't do vastly different things when reading, either. Reading Stephen Hawking's A Brief History of Time isn't the same experience as reading Fifty Shades of Grey. (Except maybe to a theoretical physicist ;-)
> Maybe *I* am the one desiring to connect and usually it is met with open armsIf what you're doing works, don't change it. Though it's possible it's working for you but not for everyone (as Meredith pointed out about her hiking days as a child.)
What will help in a broader way is:
1) don't see the family as having needs. A family is a collection of individuals with individual needs. One of the hats you'll wear as an unschooling mom is being attuned to what each needs. (Including your husband. Including you too!) Sometimes meeting individual needs can be done by rallying the troops to all do something fun together. But don't depend on that. It's cool when it happens :-) But it's also easy and convenient which means it can be tempting to ignore that one may not be as happy.
2) don't confuse your needs with the needs of the individuals in your family. As an adult you have the power to meet your own needs. You have the power to manipulate the physical world, to infuse a different mood into the atmosphere (though not to control what it does to others!) If one solution doesn't work, try another. Don't turn your first choice into the new problem. If you need to connect, don't let it all ride on one way. Which turns getting everyone to comply with your solution into the new problem. If one way doesn't work, build up a storehouse of other solutions you can try. Don't let your happiness ride on other people doing what you want them to do. Don't make your family responsible for meeting your needs.
Joyce
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Tam
________________________________
From: Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...>
**Stop looking at the door. See the richness that exists beyond the door.**
I love this! It's such a wonderful bit of clarity. I love making lots of doors available to my children, supporting them to open all the doors they're drawn to, and spend all the time they want exploring on the other side :)
Tam
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From: Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...>
**Stop looking at the door. See the richness that exists beyond the door.**
I love this! It's such a wonderful bit of clarity. I love making lots of doors available to my children, supporting them to open all the doors they're drawn to, and spend all the time they want exploring on the other side :)
Tam
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lisathecelt
Good Morning Everyone!
Thank you so much to everyone who posted. It was really strange how as soon as I posted yesterday I became unmuddled and could see so much more clearly what I think is the root. Video games are new in our lives so it was too easy to name it as the problem. My son has always loved being outside, and he played on his DS on the way to our destination. Two weeks before Christmas my husband suffered a pulmonary embolism and we mostly hung out at home for well over a month. I really thought the boys would be dying to do something outdoorsy in the nice weather. My eldest was, but I'm thinking my youngest didn't feel like he was asked.
My eldest also likes to take classes and a few of those have recently started up after Christmas break.
It sorta of came to me after posting here that my youngest is probably sick of being along for the ride. He is 5. He is not in the sling anymore. So yesterday after posting I asked him if he would like to go to a new Lego store while his brother was in Archery. We even brought his(not his brother's) friend along. He was in a great mood all day. I think it was more about being heard than the video games.
This is the first time I have posted here and am still figuring out the format. I read all of the wonderful things everyone said, and thank you for sharing your time and thoughts. I apologize for not responding individually.
Cheers, Lisa
Thank you so much to everyone who posted. It was really strange how as soon as I posted yesterday I became unmuddled and could see so much more clearly what I think is the root. Video games are new in our lives so it was too easy to name it as the problem. My son has always loved being outside, and he played on his DS on the way to our destination. Two weeks before Christmas my husband suffered a pulmonary embolism and we mostly hung out at home for well over a month. I really thought the boys would be dying to do something outdoorsy in the nice weather. My eldest was, but I'm thinking my youngest didn't feel like he was asked.
My eldest also likes to take classes and a few of those have recently started up after Christmas break.
It sorta of came to me after posting here that my youngest is probably sick of being along for the ride. He is 5. He is not in the sling anymore. So yesterday after posting I asked him if he would like to go to a new Lego store while his brother was in Archery. We even brought his(not his brother's) friend along. He was in a great mood all day. I think it was more about being heard than the video games.
This is the first time I have posted here and am still figuring out the format. I read all of the wonderful things everyone said, and thank you for sharing your time and thoughts. I apologize for not responding individually.
Cheers, Lisa
--- In [email protected], "lisathecelt" wrote:
>
> Good morning.
>
> We are currently transitioning into unschooling and have had a pretty bumpy last 10 days. Prior to this we were homeschoolers, no curriculum, but we did set limits on tv and video games. After reading the Big Book of Unschooling and Free to Learn, we have let go quite a bit. It has been about 2 months or so.
>
> I have 2 boys ages 8 and 5. Both have been enjoying Minecraft and other games immensely and I now see how much learning and joy is happening while they're playing. Here is where I am running into problems. My oldest transitions out of the game quite easily. When we are out and about he is having a good time and doesn't want to go home. My youngest for the last 10 days however, everywhere we went he was begging to go home so he could play. Over the weekend we had some really nice weather and went on a family hike, which is something we have always loved to do,but our youngest kept asking to go home and it made the day very tense. For the last couple of weeks no matter what we are doing he is asking to go home and play video games. My husband has been really kind and patient,but I can see that he is becoming irritated and his faith is waning. It is getting really hard to sell the idea of not setting limits, when we had more family harmony and peace when we had them. Any thoughts or experiences?
>
Sandra Dodd
-=- I apologize for not responding individually.-=-
Responding individually is not good.
Talk about the ideas, not the people. Generalizing is the right direction.
I'm glad you found a component to your puzzle, in finding better ways to connect and get your younger boy out. I hope you won't be getting him away from the game just to do that, though. If you value "out" over Minecraft, you're cancelling out the kindness.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Responding individually is not good.
Talk about the ideas, not the people. Generalizing is the right direction.
I'm glad you found a component to your puzzle, in finding better ways to connect and get your younger boy out. I hope you won't be getting him away from the game just to do that, though. If you value "out" over Minecraft, you're cancelling out the kindness.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Gwen Montoya
Megan (now 11) has been playing video games since she was about two. She
started on the old Disney website that had Clay (a blob of Clay, he was
adorable) and JoJo's Circus and Winnie the Pooh games. When she was older
she played Jumpstart games (the early versions, before they look like
virtual workbooks) and then she moved to an xbox game based on the movie
Ratatouille. I feel confident saying that she learned about patience and
perseverance by moving that little rat around the screen - failing, trying
again, failing, not giving up, dealing with frustration...all of it came
from one video game.
She played Pokemon for a long time (she never got into the card game, but
played the DS versions for hours). She used to use her allowance to buy
(well, used) games. Now she uses part of her allowance to pay for a Gamefly
subscription so she always have access to new games. Since she is very
selective about the games she plays, it makes more sense to rent a game and
then return it if it doesn't work out or she completes it in just a few
hours.
She now spends many hours playing a game called Feral Hearts, a free online
game. This game has led her to teach herself GIMP (like Photoshop, but
free), she is teaching herself computer coding to tweak her character's
appearance, she is designing entire maps and sharing them with friends
(trees, lakes, shrubs, caves...she decides where it all goes). As she gets
better at it she is also designing what the actual elements look like! It
is amazing stuff!
Another thing - when you have one child who ends up tagging along to
another child's activities, it is important to make the outing fun for them
whenever you can. Megan volunteers at an animal shelter and is a blackbelt
in taekwondo. So my youngest spends several hours each week hanging out
while her sister does her thing. I always bring electronic devices, paper,
pen, and snacks (or money for snacks).
Gwen
started on the old Disney website that had Clay (a blob of Clay, he was
adorable) and JoJo's Circus and Winnie the Pooh games. When she was older
she played Jumpstart games (the early versions, before they look like
virtual workbooks) and then she moved to an xbox game based on the movie
Ratatouille. I feel confident saying that she learned about patience and
perseverance by moving that little rat around the screen - failing, trying
again, failing, not giving up, dealing with frustration...all of it came
from one video game.
She played Pokemon for a long time (she never got into the card game, but
played the DS versions for hours). She used to use her allowance to buy
(well, used) games. Now she uses part of her allowance to pay for a Gamefly
subscription so she always have access to new games. Since she is very
selective about the games she plays, it makes more sense to rent a game and
then return it if it doesn't work out or she completes it in just a few
hours.
She now spends many hours playing a game called Feral Hearts, a free online
game. This game has led her to teach herself GIMP (like Photoshop, but
free), she is teaching herself computer coding to tweak her character's
appearance, she is designing entire maps and sharing them with friends
(trees, lakes, shrubs, caves...she decides where it all goes). As she gets
better at it she is also designing what the actual elements look like! It
is amazing stuff!
Another thing - when you have one child who ends up tagging along to
another child's activities, it is important to make the outing fun for them
whenever you can. Megan volunteers at an animal shelter and is a blackbelt
in taekwondo. So my youngest spends several hours each week hanging out
while her sister does her thing. I always bring electronic devices, paper,
pen, and snacks (or money for snacks).
Gwen
On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 9:17 AM, lisathecelt <lisathecelt@...> wrote:
>
>
> Good Morning Everyone!
> Thank you so much to everyone who posted. It was really strange how as
> soon as I posted yesterday I became unmuddled and could see so much more
> clearly what I think is the root. Video games are new in our lives so it
> was too easy to name it as the problem. My son has always loved being
> outside, and he played on his DS on the way to our destination. Two weeks
> before Christmas my husband suffered a pulmonary embolism and we mostly
> hung out at home for well over a month. I really thought the boys would be
> dying to do something outdoorsy in the nice weather. My eldest was, but I'm
> thinking my youngest didn't feel like he was asked.
> My eldest also likes to take classes and a few of those have recently
> started up after Christmas break.
> It sorta of came to me after posting here that my youngest is probably
> sick of being along for the ride. He is 5. He is not in the sling anymore.
> So yesterday after posting I asked him if he would like to go to a new Lego
> store while his brother was in Archery. We even brought his(not his
> brother's) friend along. He was in a great mood all day. I think it was
> more about being heard than the video games.
> This is the first time I have posted here and am still figuring out the
> format. I read all of the wonderful things everyone said, and thank you for
> sharing your time and thoughts. I apologize for not responding individually.
> Cheers, Lisa
>
> --- In [email protected], "lisathecelt" wrote:
> >
> > Good morning.
> >
> > We are currently transitioning into unschooling and have had a pretty
> bumpy last 10 days. Prior to this we were homeschoolers, no curriculum, but
> we did set limits on tv and video games. After reading the Big Book of
> Unschooling and Free to Learn, we have let go quite a bit. It has been
> about 2 months or so.
> >
> > I have 2 boys ages 8 and 5. Both have been enjoying Minecraft and other
> games immensely and I now see how much learning and joy is happening while
> they're playing. Here is where I am running into problems. My oldest
> transitions out of the game quite easily. When we are out and about he is
> having a good time and doesn't want to go home. My youngest for the last 10
> days however, everywhere we went he was begging to go home so he could
> play. Over the weekend we had some really nice weather and went on a family
> hike, which is something we have always loved to do,but our youngest kept
> asking to go home and it made the day very tense. For the last couple of
> weeks no matter what we are doing he is asking to go home and play video
> games. My husband has been really kind and patient,but I can see that he is
> becoming irritated and his faith is waning. It is getting really hard to
> sell the idea of not setting limits, when we had more family harmony and
> peace when we had them. Any thoughts or experiences?
> >
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Virginia Warren
*****
Video games are new in our lives so it was too easy to name it as the
problem.
*****
SNIP
*****
I think it was more about being heard than the video games.
*****
Maybe. But not all. Beware of looking for reasons to give yourself
permission to disapprove of things you're not familiar with. If you're
still telling yourself something like �I knew he'd stop playing video games
if I offered him something better�, you're still waiting for him to stop
playing, or to play less, and little has changed. Changing how you think
about what he does is the change that makes the difference. This particular
one is easier for me because I can remember how I felt when my dad
belittled my interest in games. On the other hand, I know how food control
hurt me, but I still tried to control my kids' eating.
I recently woke up to how I was hurting my children by trying to control
what they eat. I really thought I wasn't! When I started out, �just saying
yes more�, I was still thinking, even infrequently, well, if this doesn't
�work�, I can go back to control. Somehow, they just KNEW. One day I had
that thought and instead of seeming prudent, it seemed insane. And then my
life got better. (Ha ha, autocorrect tried to make that �my life fit
better�, I like that) I didn't know that when I stopped trying to use food
as a tool to get my kids to do what I wanted, three months later, my 8 year
old would decide to split her birthday money with her 6 year old sister,
but I'm certain they are related.
*****
I apologize for not responding individually.
*****
It's not that kind of list.
Virginia
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Video games are new in our lives so it was too easy to name it as the
problem.
*****
SNIP
*****
I think it was more about being heard than the video games.
*****
Maybe. But not all. Beware of looking for reasons to give yourself
permission to disapprove of things you're not familiar with. If you're
still telling yourself something like �I knew he'd stop playing video games
if I offered him something better�, you're still waiting for him to stop
playing, or to play less, and little has changed. Changing how you think
about what he does is the change that makes the difference. This particular
one is easier for me because I can remember how I felt when my dad
belittled my interest in games. On the other hand, I know how food control
hurt me, but I still tried to control my kids' eating.
I recently woke up to how I was hurting my children by trying to control
what they eat. I really thought I wasn't! When I started out, �just saying
yes more�, I was still thinking, even infrequently, well, if this doesn't
�work�, I can go back to control. Somehow, they just KNEW. One day I had
that thought and instead of seeming prudent, it seemed insane. And then my
life got better. (Ha ha, autocorrect tried to make that �my life fit
better�, I like that) I didn't know that when I stopped trying to use food
as a tool to get my kids to do what I wanted, three months later, my 8 year
old would decide to split her birthday money with her 6 year old sister,
but I'm certain they are related.
*****
I apologize for not responding individually.
*****
It's not that kind of list.
Virginia
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-She now spends many hours playing a game called Feral Hearts, a free online
game. This game has led her to teach herself GIMP (like Photoshop, but
free), she is teaching herself computer coding to tweak her character's
appearance, she is designing entire maps and sharing them with friends
(trees, lakes, shrubs, caves...she decides where it all goes). As she gets
better at it she is also designing what the actual elements look like! It
is amazing stuff!-=-
It's very cool. But she's learning.
If you think of it and talk of it as "teaching herself," you still stick with teacher/student. She's discovering, exploring, connecting. She's learning.
http://sandradodd.com/teaching
I know it seems, early on, not to matter. It's a big one, though.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
game. This game has led her to teach herself GIMP (like Photoshop, but
free), she is teaching herself computer coding to tweak her character's
appearance, she is designing entire maps and sharing them with friends
(trees, lakes, shrubs, caves...she decides where it all goes). As she gets
better at it she is also designing what the actual elements look like! It
is amazing stuff!-=-
It's very cool. But she's learning.
If you think of it and talk of it as "teaching herself," you still stick with teacher/student. She's discovering, exploring, connecting. She's learning.
http://sandradodd.com/teaching
I know it seems, early on, not to matter. It's a big one, though.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Virginia Warren
*******
I really wanted some fresh air as well,
*******
A tool that has been very useful for me has been to notice when the request
I am making of my child can be restated in such a way that I am asking the
child to do something that I am simultaneously refusing to do. If I am
asking my child to set aside her preference and do what I choose, and my
reason is that I don't want to set aside my preference...whoops.
******
and I also felt like he would have regretted not being with his dad and
brother after an hour or two.
******
An hour or two is a long time! In an hour or two on Minecraft you could:
grow a forest, build a castle, start a farm, start a ranch, explore a
continent, sail a trackless ocean, explore an epic cave complex, build
working machinery with circuits, all in a unique world that never existed
before. And you can fly. Is he regretting not going after spending an hour
or two at home with someone who is disapproving of his choice?
*******
It has been known to happen.
*******
That's quite vague, but still indicative of infrequency. How many times? 1
in 5? 1 in 10? How many times did he go on the hike and wish he could have
stayed home? It's hard to change your mind if you get a hard time about it
either way. Could there be a laptop in the car on the way to the hiking
trail? Could it be okay if he wanted to stay at the car? Playing Minecraft
comfortably seated in a real forest sounds super fun to me.
If you want it to be easier for him to change his mind for his own benefit
and his own reasons, make it easier for him to change his mind, period. It
requires planning and resources that may seem onerous, until they are
compared to having a sad, frustrated, possibly angry child.
*******
We do split up sometimes, but when my husband is at work that is not an
option.
*******
It's the same for us. I'm think it might be important for us to do it as
much as possible when it is an option, for that very reason. One-on-one
time seems to be really good for all of us.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I really wanted some fresh air as well,
*******
A tool that has been very useful for me has been to notice when the request
I am making of my child can be restated in such a way that I am asking the
child to do something that I am simultaneously refusing to do. If I am
asking my child to set aside her preference and do what I choose, and my
reason is that I don't want to set aside my preference...whoops.
******
and I also felt like he would have regretted not being with his dad and
brother after an hour or two.
******
An hour or two is a long time! In an hour or two on Minecraft you could:
grow a forest, build a castle, start a farm, start a ranch, explore a
continent, sail a trackless ocean, explore an epic cave complex, build
working machinery with circuits, all in a unique world that never existed
before. And you can fly. Is he regretting not going after spending an hour
or two at home with someone who is disapproving of his choice?
*******
It has been known to happen.
*******
That's quite vague, but still indicative of infrequency. How many times? 1
in 5? 1 in 10? How many times did he go on the hike and wish he could have
stayed home? It's hard to change your mind if you get a hard time about it
either way. Could there be a laptop in the car on the way to the hiking
trail? Could it be okay if he wanted to stay at the car? Playing Minecraft
comfortably seated in a real forest sounds super fun to me.
If you want it to be easier for him to change his mind for his own benefit
and his own reasons, make it easier for him to change his mind, period. It
requires planning and resources that may seem onerous, until they are
compared to having a sad, frustrated, possibly angry child.
*******
We do split up sometimes, but when my husband is at work that is not an
option.
*******
It's the same for us. I'm think it might be important for us to do it as
much as possible when it is an option, for that very reason. One-on-one
time seems to be really good for all of us.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
Roxana (now 25) recently mentioned that she loved camping. Anybody who
camped with us might have scoffed - we camped a lot and she often spent
most of a day sitting in the front seat of the car with a big pile of books
while bunches of other kids played and hiked.
Sitting in the car with lots of uninterrupted time to read and read and
read while glancing up occasionally to see the gorgeous view really was her
idea of a GREAT time!! She'd very happily join us for meals and later in
the evening to sit around the campfire. She has great memories of camping.
-pam
camped with us might have scoffed - we camped a lot and she often spent
most of a day sitting in the front seat of the car with a big pile of books
while bunches of other kids played and hiked.
Sitting in the car with lots of uninterrupted time to read and read and
read while glancing up occasionally to see the gorgeous view really was her
idea of a GREAT time!! She'd very happily join us for meals and later in
the evening to sit around the campfire. She has great memories of camping.
-pam
On Thu, Jan 31, 2013 at 4:16 PM, Virginia Warren <vafnord@...> wrote:
> Could it be okay if he wanted to stay at the car? Playing Minecraft
> comfortably seated in a real forest sounds super fun to me.
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]