sandi_xander

I have been mulling over this situation for a while and figured some long-time members might have some good ideas.
Sometimes I'll run into someone who says they "mostly unschool" or they say they are unschooling except for a particular subject or two. I have pretty much kept my mouth shut, but has anyone thought of a good response that would help clarify unschooling for these people? And, do you see a reason to clarify?

In some ways, I figure, they can do whatever they want to do and call it whatever they want. But then on the other hand, if those families are describing "their way" of unschooling to other newbies, it would perpetuate a false sense of what unschooling is.
Any thoughts on this matter?
Thanks. Sandi

Sandra Dodd

-=- I have pretty much kept my mouth shut, but has anyone thought of a good response that would help clarify unschooling for these people? And, do you see a reason to clarify?-=-

If they're doing it out in their own neighborhoods, nothing can be done.
If you're in a position that your agreement is some sort of vote, or affirmation/confirmation/agreement, then maybe you should say "That's more like 'eclectic unschooling,' then--picking and choosing."

If they're asking you for advice or ideas, you could ask why they aren't worried about science and history, but they ARE worried about (whatever it is.. probably reading or math) and just see what they say.

-=-But then on the other hand, if those families are describing "their way" of unschooling to other newbies, it would perpetuate a false sense of what unschooling is. -=-

There are. They will. Each family looks around, or doesn't; finds a trusted source, or doesn't. Some people will trust dubious sources.

If someone comes to this discussion and wants to defend that kind of partial unschooling, it won't get them any points in this arena, but in others, it might. That's the way "points" work in the world. No one will be respected by everyone. So it's better to decide whose respect you care about and let the rest slide.

These might help you feel better.
http://sandradodd.com/unschool/radical

http://sandradodd.com/unschool/vsRelaxedHomeschooling.html

http://sandradodd.com/comparisons

If it's someone you need to have a longterm association with, maybe you could send her one of those.

Sandra


Sandra

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Jenny Cyphers

***In some ways, I figure, they can do whatever they want to do and call it whatever they want. But then on the other hand, if those families are describing "their way" of unschooling to other newbies, it would perpetuate a false sense of what unschooling is.***

They sure can do whatever they want to do.  The best response might be, "I hope that works out for you.".

If you stick with it long enough you will meet people who have unschooled badly.  You will meet those who have done it beautifully.  The commonalities of those that do it well, will be obvious.  Those who have unschooled badly were the ones who did it "their way".  It seems to be a marker of wanting to control ones kids.  

There are 2 factors at play, being kind to kids and how much control a parent uses on their kids.  A very controlling, yet kind parent with very compliant kids might have kids that turn out pretty okay.

Personally, I don't think parents can control their kids and unschool.  It goes against the way partnerships work and unschooling really works best that way.  Parents who unschool everything but "_____", are trying to control the outcome of their children.  It's a very traditional view of raising children, to focus on inputting information to gain a specific outcome. 


Parents who are simply unkind really won't ever do unschooling well and if a child feels that exertion of control as cruelty, it will work just the same as if a parent is acting unkind.  

I don't know the answer to this issue.  The only thing I know is from my own personal experience and that is, that the families that I've known personally who unschool terribly are/were the ones who espoused this belief stronger than any others.


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Meredith

What's the purpose of the particular relationship/meet-up? If you're getting together specifically to share information about home/unschooling, that's different than hanging out casually or looking to make some friends, expand your support network.

I know families who kinda-sorta unschool - unschool everything except reading, or unschool in the sense that the kids get to choose what part of their math books to work from. Two of them have been on various radical unschooling lists and have read Sandra's site, so they're not uninformed, but they're not interested in radical unschooling or don't think it would work for their families.

>>if those families are describing "their way" of unschooling to other newbies, it would perpetuate a false sense of what unschooling is.
***************

I know from my own experiences that once I really started hunting for something like radical unschooling I found it. I did have some initial hesitation based on experiences with "unschoolers" of the "let the kids run wild" variety - I didn't want That! but actually taking time to do some research cleared things up for me.

I don't think a person who won't go past "but Timmy's mom said" is going to be a good candidate for radical unschooling anyway. It takes some combination of philosophy, experimentation, and self-awareness, and you won't get that Just from casual conversations at play-dates.

---Meredith

Sandra Dodd

-=-I don't think a person who won't go past "but Timmy's mom said" is going to be a good candidate for radical unschooling anyway. It takes some combination of philosophy, experimentation, and self-awareness, and you won't get that Just from casual conversations at play-dates.-=-

Ooooh.
Maybe instead of "radical unschooling" we should have called it "advanced unschooling."

:-)

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Sandra Dodd

-=-If you stick with it long enough you will meet people who have unschooled badly. You will meet those who have done it beautifully. The commonalities of those that do it well, will be obvious. Those who have unschooled badly were the ones who did it "their way". It seems to be a marker of wanting to control ones kids. -=-

I've seen some bad unschooling based on the hope/belief that there was nothing to it--that kids will learn all the time, so it doesn't matter WHAT the mom does. If a mom has her own friends and her own hobbies and the kids are just in the house, growing up, getting older all the time but the focus is not on learning, and not on relationships or togetherness.... after a few years nothing has happened because nothing is happening. A kind of cheery neglect.

-=-Personally, I don't think parents can control their kids and unschool. It goes against the way partnerships work and unschooling really works best that way. -=-

"Control" is a broad area. I think a statement like that could assist some people with their cheery neglect. They could add that to their box of very limp tools. "I didn't control him, because that wouldn't have been unschooling." But they might mean, by that, that they never tried to persuade or influence or advise or support or encourage.

Sandra

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Jenny Cyphers

***"Control" is a broad area. I think a statement like that could assist some people with their cheery neglect. They could add that to their box of very limp tools. "I didn't control him, because that wouldn't have been unschooling." But they might mean, by that, that they never tried to persuade or influence or advise or support or encourage.***


Yes, so very true!  I sometimes think there are people who don't know HOW to persuade, influence, advice or support without controlling the outcome of that.  I don't know how to change that other than to not pass that ignorance onto my kids.  It's something I find hard to put into words.

I think cheery neglect might be better than antagonistic relationships that come with control, no matter how the parents decide to educate their children.  Again, though, that's not great unschooling!  If the focus is on happy learning a great relationships, it would be very hard to control the people directly in that path.

My kids have been very good at letting me know when I've overstepped my bounds.  I'm good at listening to them and realizing when I'm in control mode.  The more I focus on happy making, the less controlling I want to be.  The kinder I am to my kids, the more mindful I am, the less I focus on control.

In my experience, and this is just my experience, it might be totally different than other people, but the families that I've known that did let their kids do whatever they wanted and didn't attempt to engage in altering unwanted behavior, would end up doing very reactionary parenting, which is its own kind of control.  It was an attempt to create peace in the midst of chaos, instead of focusing on peace to begin with to avoid chaos in the first place.


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Schuyler

>>I've seen some bad unschooling based on the hope/belief that there was nothing to it--that kids will learn all the time, so it doesn't matter WHAT the mom does.  If a mom has her own friends and her own hobbies and the kids are just in the house, growing up, getting older all the time but the focus is not on learning, and not on relationships or togetherness.... after a few years nothing has happened because nothing is happening.  A kind of cheery neglect.<<


This was reposted on a facebook page. Someone got stuck on this line: "the focus is not on learning" and worried that maybe they weren't focusing enough on the learning. That maybe they were focusing too little on the learning while doing other things with their children. I assume, and responded as such, that the argument being made was that unschooling takes time in, hands on, time together stuff. That unschooling doesn't necessarily require that one be aware of the learning outcome of one event or another, but that a big part of the life of an unschooling parent is finding new and interesting things to put in front of their children, that a big part of the life on an unschooling parent is working to connect with their children and to spend time with their children. Lots of time with their children. 

In light of that, I would add, and maybe it's implied, that an unschooling parent, in order to unschool well, to find at the end of a few years that things have happened, ought to explore the fundamentals of learning. Learning is bigger and brighter and smaller and more mundane than school would have you believe. It is happening all the time. But there are conditions in which learning can be epiphany rich and pleasurable and filled with awe and other conditions where learning is largely about how to get by and feeling badly and ways to not feel so bad and it never looks like an outcome that you would have aimed for if you'd been laying it out in your mind. I think it helps to see what learning can be, how connections can happen and how play is valuable in making those things good and bright. But that's bigger picture stuff than what someone might see when they read something about focusing on the learning. 

Schuyler


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Sandra Dodd

-=-I think cheery neglect might be better than antagonistic relationships that come with control, no matter how the parents decide to educate their children.-=-

In terms of homeschooling, control and school are legal.
Cheery neglect called "unschooling" risks the future of unschooling, in addition to risking a court order to put those children in school.

Society expects and can define controlling parents.

-=-My kids have been very good at letting me know when I've overstepped my bounds. I'm good at listening to them and realizing when I'm in control mode. -=-

So in removing "bounds" from children, you've allowed children to put boundaries on you?
"just words," just semantics, someone might say, but I think there's a problem in the idea as you've stated it.

-=-The more I focus on happy making, the less controlling I want to be. The kinder I am to my kids, the more mindful I am, the less I focus on control.
-=-

That I agree with.

A focus on learning and on peace and relationships should avoid the problems both directions.

I think a complete lack of control is as bad as being too controlling. If the mom can control the environment and provide what will assist with learning and peace, things will be good. If she just hopes those things will come without doing anything to create and provide and maintain them, they're unlikely to create themselves.

Sandra

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Sandra Dodd

-=- I think it helps to see what learning can be, how connections can happen and how play is valuable in making those things good and bright. But that's bigger picture stuff than what someone might see when they read something about focusing on the learning. -=-

Well I wrote it on Always Learning, and not on someone's facebook page. Taking it out of context and discussing it there wasn't as good as discussing it here would have been.

I assume that people who are in this discussion are aware of my site, and Joyce's, and neither of those is lacking in ideas about how to encourage connections and play.

Sandra

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sandi_xander

< What's the purpose of the particular relationship/meet-up? If you're getting together specifically to share information about home/unschooling, that's different than hanging out casually or looking to make some friends, expand your support network.>

We are very lucky to have a wonderful group of radical unschool families that we hang with on a regular basis. The people I was referring to in my post have generally been those I met in passing. It has really bothered me when someone says they unschool and then proceed to say how they teach, for example, math and reading. And although I'm concerned that they aren't really understanding unschooling and are passing along poor information to others, I haven't ever said much other than to possibly state what we do (or don't do) depending on the conversation. I was just hoping someone would have a great line that might prompt a listener to look deeper.

> I know families who kinda-sorta unschool - unschool everything except reading, or unschool in the sense that the kids get to choose what part of their math books to work from. Two of them have been on various radical unschooling lists and have read Sandra's site, so they're not uninformed, but they're not interested in radical unschooling or don't think it would work for their families. >

Are people thinking that if they just teach some of the subjects that they are still unschooling, just not radical unschooling?

Sandi

Joyce Fetteroll

On Jan 21, 2013, at 12:09 AM, sandi_xander wrote:

> Are people thinking that if they just teach some of the subjects
> that they are still unschooling, just not radical unschooling?

It may depend on the person and what they've heard about unschooling.

I think many people mistake unschooling for natural learning. Kids can learn naturally part time. They can't help it! ;-) We all do it ... naturally. School damage can make it harder to learn from life, harder to trust that it's more than just for fluff stuff, but school can't stop it.

Unschooling is about trusting natural learning through exploring interests in a rich environment as being the best way for kids to learn. If a parent teaches some subjects, that means the parents think not everything can be learned that way. Or that the other stuff is only important to those who are interested so if they kids don't get all they would in school, no harm is done.

Joyce

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BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

Just yesterday someone in my State message me that out local state homeschooling list had posted
this free educational talk that is happening soon  because she understands that this will just confuse people. Here are the details:

"A free ED talk in Minneapolis on February 25th about unschooling. It should be noted that the speaker is opening a charter school in Minneapolis in August.
Details below:
Kerry Muse: Giving Control to Kids – The Power of Unschooling
Using technology and student-ownership to personalize learning, Kerry Muse helped propel KIPP Bridge Charter School in Oakland to become one of California’s highest performing, high-poverty urban middle schools. Kerry is Chief Learning Officer and Head of School at Venture Academy, a public charter school that opens in Minneapolis next August. He spent 10 years as a math, special education and visual arts teacher in Texas and California and has also taught video game design at the Galileo Summer Quest science camp in Silicon Valley."


Now I have had several discussions in my unschooling state wide list about the fact that going to a democratic school is not unschooling and it is not even homeschooling but there is a huge number of people that believe that. 
I was even asked by a mom: " What do I say to my child then? I have been telling him all along that he is unschooled."
Keep in mind this child goes to school. It may be a better choice than regular school, the child may even love it.But it is school.
I have yet to post any answer to the post on this homeschooling list. If it was in my Unschooling list I would have  debated it but it is not my list and it is a general State wide list.
I may bring it over to my list. I may just post about what is unschooling in my list and not talk bout school at all. That way the focus is in what unschooling is as many people focus on a few things like " no control, no bedtimes, no limits and child led learning" and that  is not what unschooling is all about.

lex Polikowsky

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Shauna Reisewitz

Maybe one of the questions to ask is is how importanat the term "Unschooling" is?, or is following the principles of trusting our children, and learning all the time, and having relationships based on respect the real core of "unschooling"?

If a family has decided  together that what works best for their kids is to go to a democratic school, and participate as a family there-- does that make them NOT unschoolers?

If an unschooling mom who's husband isn't 100% behind the concept occasionally shares "schooly" stuff with her kids (because she knows her kids will be interested and because it helps dad feel more comfortable)-- does that make her not an unschooler?

Does an unschooling family who listens to their 4th grader begging them to try school- and lets her try school, not an unschooler?

To me it seems more important to follow the principles of trust and respect and opportunity-- and sometimes these things might look a little schooly or lead to schooly type activities and even lifestyles---but at heart many of these people  are still unschoolers. And conversely maybe many people who call themselves unschoolers (as Sandra suggested earlier) - are "unschooling badly."

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Sandra Dodd

-=-Maybe one of the questions to ask is is how importanat the term "Unschooling" is?, or is following the principles of trusting our children, and learning all the time, and having relationships based on respect the real core of "unschooling"? -=-


For the purpose of discussing it here, it's very important. No one has the position or right to tell people out in the world or in their own homes what words to use, but the understanding for this discussion is that "unschooling" is that unschooling described and discussed on my site and Joyce's.

If you're arguing that the word is not important, then good.

If you're arguing that the word is SO important that everyone has the right to use it, then that's not good.

-=-If a family has decided together that what works best for their kids is to go to a democratic school, and participate as a family there-- does that make them NOT unschoolers? -=-

Absolutely, once their kids are in a school of any kind, that child is not being unschooled.

-=-If an unschooling mom who's husband isn't 100% behind the concept occasionally shares "schooly" stuff with her kids (because she knows her kids will be interested and because it helps dad feel more comfortable)-- does that make her not an unschooler? -=-

That mom can't be an unschooling mom if her husband doesn't approve of unschooling. It needs to be something that's done as a family. She can be interested in unschooling, and knowledgeable about unschooling, but if the husband requires that the family NOT embrace unschooling fully, then fully they are not unschooling.

I couldn't be a private school mom if my kids weren't in private school.
I couldn't be a public school mom if my kids weren't in public school.
I can't be a soccer mom if my kids don't play soccer.
I can't be a stay-at-home mom if my kids are in daycare while I'm at work.

-=-Does an unschooling family who listens to their 4th grader begging them to try school- and lets her try school, not an unschooler?-=-

The first question is why the kid wants to go to school so badly. Maybe they're not unschooling as well as they could be.
But if the child wants to go to school, once she's in school, she's not homeschooled, and unschooling is a way to homeschool.

-=-To me it seems more important to follow the principles of trust and respect and opportunity-- and sometimes these things might look a little schooly or lead to schooly type activities and even lifestyles---but at heart many of these people are still unschoolers.-=-

It's not a club or a religion. A schooly-type lifestyle isn't unschooling.

Sandra

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Sandra Dodd

Someone was writing in public about problems with her daughter's reading. The mom was pressuring reading lessons, and the girl was in school. She had asked me to be her facebook friend, so I assumed she wanted unschooling advice, but she rebuffed it. Then when I mentioned all that in a private exchange, she wrote "it doesn't feel good to be excluded."

She wanted
1) kid in school
2) to be (a) teaching her to read and (b) complainig about lack of progress
3) to have my public support or sympathy, and
4) to be included in (her words): "the unschooling community."


Some of my (also private) response) was

Pam Laricchia's intro series is excellent
http://www.livingjoyfully.ca
Her book is, too.
I don't do what I do to help people feel good about being included.
If you didn't have a harley, would you write to the harley club and say you don't feel good being excluded?
If you didn't swim, would you tell the swim club they're hurting your feelings?
I'm providing tools and ideas for helping people be able to create an unschooling environment of their own at their house, not to invite them into "the unschooling community."
Seeing it as a club to join is a mistake.

She wrote: "what if i was learning to swim? and really loved what i had heard and seen of other people swimming?"

Sandra

I wrote:
If you were learning to swim and someone said you were doing something in a way that would make it difficult, how long would you defend yourself before accepting that they might be right?
... I think if you do want to learn more, you have the tools, the links, and the direction.

Meredith

"sandi_xander" wrote:
>> Are people thinking that if they just teach some of the subjects that they are still unschooling, just not radical unschooling?
**************

Yes. And there are books and blogs and websites which absolutely support that idea. "Unschooling is giving children as much freedom as the parents can bear" - is that the Pat Farenga quote?

Most people want to believe that teaching works, that it's possible to teach kids the "right" things and it's possible for kids to fail to learn the right things if they're not taught or carefully guided in the right direction. It's scary to step past teaching and see how learning happens without teaching and despite teaching. It can seem very out-of-control to parents, and that's terrifying - how can they take care of their kids if they have no control over what they're learning? Especially when so many other parents insist that it's so very important to teach kids the right lessons so they grow up the right way.

---Meredith

Meredith

Shauna Reisewitz wrote:
>
> Maybe one of the questions to ask is is how importanat the term "Unschooling" is?
***************

Sometimes it helps to step back from the word "unschooling" or the idea of "being an unschooler" and dig down into the underlying principles.

>>or is following the principles of trusting our children, and learning all the time, and having relationships based on respect the real core of "unschooling"?
*************

The real core of unschooling is the nature of learning, itself - the rest of those things, the principles which support unschooling, derive from that core. At it's core, learning is essential to human nature. At the same time, learning is utterly dependent on the perceptions and perspectives of the individual. Those are biiiiiig ideas. They're Why it's possible to trust kids to learn, and why relationships are important.

>--but at heart many of these people  are still unschoolers

In the past they'd have been called something else - free thinkers or philosophers of one kind or another. Naturalists or scientists, or poets or explorers. It's not a new idea that learning is a powerful force in human nature... although it Is new to apply that idea to children in the way it has been applied to adults (and before that male adults of a certain class). That's the other side of the core of unschooling - that what we know about human nature and learning can be applied to children.

Personally, I find it creepy when adults want to call themselves "unschooler" - as though school were the norm for every aspect of life. Eeew! It may be that "unschooling" is becomming the new buzzword for thinkers and hobbyists and explorers, but that's a sad commentary on modern life, in a way.

---Meredith

Shauna

So I'm curious for the sake of argument, If your teen chooses to take a college course (and takes it), is he no longer unschooling? or has he moved from the realm of unschool to school?

I think unschoolers can and do take classes to enrich their learning, if the class is "trying out school" to see what that is like, that can still be part of what happens in an unschooling family... ( I don't however believe - after our 10 day stint into school to see what that was like--that one can unschool and do all the requirements of a regular school at all!!Yipes! )

I'm more arguing that the word is not so important- what is important are the principles behind the word.. and if those principles are there, then unschooling is big enough to include some things that may seem schoolish to some radical unschoolers.

I'm actually one who says I "mostly unschool" because I fall short of the ideal sometimes. But I do totally trust and know that my children are learning all the time, and value their relationship with each other and mine with them above just about anything.


--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd wrote:
>
> -=-Maybe one of the questions to ask is is how importanat the term "Unschooling" is?, or is following the principles of trusting our children, and learning all the time, and having relationships based on respect the real core of "unschooling"? -=-
>
>
> For the purpose of discussing it here, it's very important. No one has the position or right to tell people out in the world or in their own homes what words to use, but the understanding for this discussion is that "unschooling" is that unschooling described and discussed on my site and Joyce's.
>
> If you're arguing that the word is not important, then good.
>
> If you're arguing that the word is SO important that everyone has the right to use it, then that's not good.
>
> -=-If a family has decided together that what works best for their kids is to go to a democratic school, and participate as a family there-- does that make them NOT unschoolers? -=-
>
> Absolutely, once their kids are in a school of any kind, that child is not being unschooled.
>
> -=-If an unschooling mom who's husband isn't 100% behind the concept occasionally shares "schooly" stuff with her kids (because she knows her kids will be interested and because it helps dad feel more comfortable)-- does that make her not an unschooler? -=-
>
> That mom can't be an unschooling mom if her husband doesn't approve of unschooling. It needs to be something that's done as a family. She can be interested in unschooling, and knowledgeable about unschooling, but if the husband requires that the family NOT embrace unschooling fully, then fully they are not unschooling.
>
> I couldn't be a private school mom if my kids weren't in private school.
> I couldn't be a public school mom if my kids weren't in public school.
> I can't be a soccer mom if my kids don't play soccer.
> I can't be a stay-at-home mom if my kids are in daycare while I'm at work.
>
> -=-Does an unschooling family who listens to their 4th grader begging them to try school- and lets her try school, not an unschooler?-=-
>
> The first question is why the kid wants to go to school so badly. Maybe they're not unschooling as well as they could be.
> But if the child wants to go to school, once she's in school, she's not homeschooled, and unschooling is a way to homeschool.
>
> -=-To me it seems more important to follow the principles of trust and respect and opportunity-- and sometimes these things might look a little schooly or lead to schooly type activities and even lifestyles---but at heart many of these people are still unschoolers.-=-
>
> It's not a club or a religion. A schooly-type lifestyle isn't unschooling.
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Joyce Fetteroll

On Jan 22, 2013, at 12:12 AM, Shauna wrote:

> If your teen chooses to take a college course (and takes it), is he no
> longer unschooling? or has he moved from the realm of unschool to school?

For the purposes of the list, what an unschooling kid taking a school class is called doesn't matter.

The list's purpose is not to define who is and who isn't an unschooler. It's to help people understand what unschooling is and help them do it.

That seems a quibble. The philosophy and its followers seem to go hand in hand. But what makes a choice unschooling is not the choice but *why* the choice is made. Labeling choices as unschooling, moves the focus to the surface. Which is misleading.

A philosophy is a tool people use to live a certain way. In the case of unschooling, the certain way of living is to create a rich, supportive atmosphere for kids to explore their interests in, knowing it will allow them to grow an understanding of the world and discover who they are.

The (unschooling) tool helps people decide whether a choice will move them towards that or away. The philosophy lives in the reasons why someone makes a choice, not the choice itself.

Once someone understands unschooling they know the label -- for themselves or their child -- isn't important..

Before someone understands unschooling, debating whether a child taking a school class is unschooling or not is just confusing. One child doing a workbook may be unschooling. One child doing a workbook may still see learning in school terms -- or trying to please a mother who still does. The workbook choice doesn't define unschooling. Why the child is doing the workbook does.

Joyce

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Joyce Fetteroll

On Jan 22, 2013, at 12:12 AM, Shauna wrote:

> I'm more arguing that the word is not so important-
> what is important are the principles behind the word


Yes, unschooling is in the choices someone makes, not in what they call the choices or call themselves.

But you're arguing your point in a place where the word *is* important in order for the list to do what it intends to do ;-) Here, in order to help people understand what unschooling is, it makes it much easier to be able to say "That's unschooling" and "That is not unschooling." It beats the alternative of writing out all the principles involved in an idea each time ;-)

We're describing what's in the box labeled unschooling. We're describing what's not in the box. The contents of the box are what's important. But without the box to hold those ideas, it makes it a whole lot more difficult to discuss it!

Joyce

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Joyce Fetteroll

On Jan 22, 2013, at 12:12 AM, Shauna wrote:

> I'm actually one who says I "mostly unschool" because I fall short of the ideal sometimes.

If only those who could make ideal unschooling choices each time could call themselves unschoolers, then no one would be an unschooler ;-)

But, if you mean that you deliberately, thoughtfully make choices that move you away from joyful learning and living, then why you make those choices is useful to examine. *If* you want to have the life the unschooling philosophy is good for creating.

Don't focus on making the right unschooling choices. Focus on learning from the results of your choices how to make better unschooling choices.

Joyce

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Catia Maciel

I would like to comment the “just say no” blogpost on Just had light and
stir.
http://justaddlightandstir.blogspot.pt/2013/01/just-say-no.html

Specially, this part “ (…) school was real life, school was a kid's fulltime
job, school was more important than anything, school would keep them from
being ignorant, school would make them happy and rich and right.”

My husband and I are almost 40 and both of us have university degrees. I did
a post graduation and he did an MBA.

We both work on our field of studies.

We both have nightmares about school ever since. During school we used to
dream that we will never finish school, never find a job, that our parents
where miserable because of that and our friends did not want to be our
friends anymore.

When we got our diplomas, we started dreaming (or having nightmares) that we
did not finished the university and our family and employers discover it so
we lost our job and everyone’s confidence. I also used to dream, at the
university that they discovered that I lied about my school grades I had to
go back and do the years that I missed.

Every time we spend a long time without dreaming any of that, we forget it
the dreams come back on a regular basis. We already know that we dream about
it when we are facing difficult times in our lifes, when we are afraid of
something…

We think it is because our self value is attached to the grades and
diplomas and we both were students with reasonable grades that did not like
to study or work as much as the teacher and parents wanted us to work. We
also used to miss as much classes as we could, many times more than the
established by the school/university rules. All that, labelled inappropriate
behaviour made us grow with guilt.

The deschooling process, to us, is also about acknowledge how much our self
image connected to our school years.

In unschooling, the way it is discussed on this list, I’ve found the only
source where I could think that “maybe” I did not have a poor self image
because I was a “terrible” student and young girl but because school really
can have a bad effect on children, teens and young adults.

I’m a teacher at the university (or I work as a teacher at …) and during a
long time that was my definition of success so, it was not possible to
criticize the structure that made me possible to be successful. All I could
think of was that if I was a better student, I would be proposed a better
job, at a better university, with a better salary so, I did not have enough
it was because I did not worked harder.

Thank you for letting me know there are different ways and, because of that,
to allowme to be able to provide something different to my child (who is
now 3 years old and maybe, one day, will go to school but, if he does do to
school, will be in different conditions from is parents).

Any comment or idea will be welcomed as a new opportunity to grow.

thanks

Cátia Maciel












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Sandra Dodd

Shauna, those who are some who say they're only kind of unschooling, or not quite unschooling, seem to be the first to want to cling to the term. They like to think the term isn't very important.

Diluting this message won't provide anyone with a clear picture of the possibility of PURE, real, uncompromised unschooling. It would make some people more comfortable, those who aren't really confident in unschooling, but it would set the bar so low that many other families would settle for kind of, partial, sort of unschooling. And that will never produce the depth of results that the families who really, truly separated themselves from formal education's expectations and schedules got. It will never give the parents the perspective they would have if they had separated academic learning from learning about food, sleep, relaxation and human relationships.

This is from a side exchange from a family where the parents are fully sold on unschooling but whose child (maybe two) want to go to school to try it.

I wrote:
_____
> The experience of a child who is there by choices is different all kinds of ways from those who are there against their will.
>
> If you're willing to let them come back if they get tired of it, don't worry. :-)

____________
And what I meant was "Don't worry that it will ruin them."
What I did NOT mean was "Don't worry, you'll still be unschooling."
__________

She wrote:

-=-Thank you so much for your reply, you are right, the difference is whether our children feel they are there by choice or not, I felt that in my heart, but was feeling good about was happening, but I can see for me that what you write about unschooling is a state of mind, a way of being with our children whatever and wherever they are, and not to worry! -=-

And I wrote:

I don't think it will be unschooling if they're in school, but you will still have a soft place for them to land, where they could unschool, ultimately, if they come home. :-)

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

-=-Before someone understands unschooling, debating whether a child taking a school class is unschooling or not is just confusing. One child doing a workbook may be unschooling. One child doing a workbook may still see learning in school terms -- or trying to please a mother who still does. The workbook choice doesn't define unschooling. Why the child is doing the workbook does.-=-

Yes.

A family who has lived "school free" for many years and has reached a point where everyone in the family knows, for sure, that the kids can learn without school will view school differently than a family who is afraid to leave the school shore, and who has always had one foot in unschooling and one out, "just in case."

Kelly Lovejoy wrote something a few years ago that acn help explain this, but it can also be used as a cross held up to vampires by people who are still looking to be called unschooleers rather than seeking to understand unschooling at so deep a level that they *become* unschoolers.

http://sandradodd.com/kellylovejoy/stages

Some people have said "Pam Sorooshian's daughters took college classes when they were teens, and they were still unschoolers, so... "
and their "...so" aimed toward justifying their never changing their idea that some things have to be taught--reading, math. But the classes they were first taking were singing, pottery--easy, fun things that people can and do learn on their own. Their mom worked at a couple of colleges, and the California state college system makes it easy for local residents to take classes. They were learning TONS outside of that, and that was a minor part of life, not the focus of their "education."

When a family looks at anything harder and closer than they look at relationships and learning opportunities that look nothing at all like school, they're going to fail to thrive, as unschoolers.

Sandra

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Sandra Dodd

-=-My husband and I are almost 40 and both of us have university degrees. I did
a post graduation and he did an MBA.

We both work on our field of studies.

We both have nightmares about school ever since. -=-

Catia is Portuguese, and was really excited when she wrote her post, and I went in and made a few corrections, fixed a link, fixed some typos and excited grammatical errors while I was in there. I'm saying this because I rarely do any such thing, but for other moderators who saw the original, and for Catia, I wanted to say the message was a big, good one. And I polished the spelling a little bit.

There is something that has been studied, related to school and to women (especially but not only women) in the work place, and that is the feeling that they are in a position or have a rank or degree, but it's unearned, or fraudulent.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impostor_syndrome

I would like to comment more, but need to be somewhere in just a few minutes.

Sandra

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Meredith

"Shauna" wrote:
>
>
> So I'm curious for the sake of argument, If your teen chooses to take a college course (and takes it), is he no longer unschooling? or has he moved from the realm of unschool to school?
*****************

It sounds like you're asking people to nail down the details of a rule so you can break or go around it. What does it matter? Are you afraid if you kid takes too many classes you won't be eligible to attend some unschooling gathering? I don't know a single unschooling conference or gathering with that kind of litmus test. I know the semi-annual campout my family attends includes families curious about unschooling, starting unschooling, having trouble with unschooling, and who have stepped back from unschooling after a divorce.

This might help:
http://sandradodd.com/kellylovejoy/stages

Personally, I don't mention unschooling unless I think someone is actually interested. I don't tell strangers "we're unschoolers". I don't even tell casual acquaintances unless they ask a specific questions about home-education. And in person I tend not to mention "radical unschooling" because most of the people I know assume that means I live in a tree and don't wear shoes... and that gets me invited to all the wrong sorts of parties ;)

>>> I'm more arguing that the word is not so important- what is important are the principles behind the word.. and if those principles are there, then unschooling is big enough to include some things that may seem schoolish to some radical unschoolers.
****************

I think you're making assumptions about what "some radical unschoolers" think which don't make sense within the paradigm of radical unschooling.

"Unschooling is big enough" sounds like you're saying "learning is innate enough that forced assimilation is still learning and therefore does not invalidate unschooling." Or maybe "learning is natural, of course, but there are some things which My Kids Have To Be Taught."

---Meredith

Jenny Cyphers

***I'm more arguing that the word is not so important- what is important are the principles behind the word.. and if those principles are there, then unschooling is big enough to include some things that may seem schoolish to some radical unschoolers.***


Some of the very best families that I've met in the homeschooling world, were not unschoolers at all and some of the very worst families I've met in the homeschooling world called themselves unschoolers.  In a real way, day to day life way, the word isn't as important as the principles.  When writing about it online, especially in any forum where people are sharing advice on how to unschool well, it's VERY important.


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Shauna

> > So I'm curious for the sake of argument, If your teen chooses to take a college course (and takes it), is he no longer unschooling? or has he moved from the realm of unschool to school?
> *****************
>
> It sounds like you're asking people to nail down the details of a rule so you can break or go around it. What does it matter? Are you afraid if you kid takes too many classes you won't be eligible to attend some unschooling gathering? I don't know a single unschooling conference or gathering with that kind of litmus test. I know the semi-annual campout my family attends includes families curious about unschooling, starting unschooling, having trouble with unschooling, and who have stepped back from unschooling after a divorce.


Hmm, no I'm not looking to nail down a rule to break it. I actually very deeply believe and know that learning is a fundamental part of human nature and trust my children and others to learn in all sorts of environments. I strive to provide opportunity time and freedom for my kids to follow their interests. Sometimes that includes taking classes. Though in no way is that central to learning.

I'm even starting a program that encourages teens to do the same.

Because this is an unschooling list where we discuss ideas about unschooling, I was just looking for clarity of the idea. I understand now that this list is also kind of an educational tool about unschooling and that defining things in certain ways or not can cause confusion and not be super helpful. ( I know i didn't say that very well.. I'm just trying to say that I got the gist of Joyce and Sandra's replies to my post-- I think I did anyways.)
>
>
> "Unschooling is big enough" sounds like you're saying "learning is innate enough that forced assimilation is still learning and therefore does not invalidate unschooling." Or maybe "learning is natural, of course, but there are some things which My Kids Have To Be Taught."

That's interesting that you pick that up from my comment. I actually believe that forced assimilation is no way to learn and I pretty much abhor teaching (even though I am a teacher by trade - go figure)...

It seems that every time I post to this list, I get comments posted by someone about how I don't understand unschooling. Do you all assume that any new person who posts here has a very shallow view of the principles and ideas of unschooling? I'm just wondering.
I also know that I'm not as facile with my words and writing as most of the main writers on this list are, and occasionally jump into the fray to get some clarity or test an idea out... I guess it's all part of learning.

Sandra Dodd

-=-Some of the very best families that I've met in the homeschooling world, were not unschoolers at all and some of the very worst families I've met in the homeschooling world called themselves unschoolers. In a real way, day to day life way, the word isn't as important as the principles. When writing about it online, especially in any forum where people are sharing advice on how to unschool well, it's VERY important.-=-

It's not a magic word, that's for sure. And it's not a shield, or a badge. It shouldn't be a ticket to get someone in somewhere. It has no cash value.

But it has value in any analytical discussion of methodology and practice and belief.

This discussions isn't a "how to" or "what to" so much as a "why to." If someone can stop arguing and stop defending long enough to relax into the "why," and if they're honestly willing to consider and try to understand the facets and aspects of "why," then the what and how become easy.

When people want to rush to the "what" and "how" and bypass the "why," they will be shaky and collapsible, or will need someone to explain what and how to them always, for years.

Sandra

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