Negotiating frinedships with "non-unschoolers"
Shauna
My daughters have been "BFF's" with my girlfriends pair of daughters since before they were born. They are basically the same ages (2 girls age 7 and 2 age 4). My girlfriend of many years and I were pregnant together-- However, from birth our philosophies diverged- I home birthed, attachement parented, and am now unschooling.They have made mostly different choices, though still are close friends and good parents -- providing lots of fun and adventure in their kids lives..And we still as families hang out quite a bit. Kind of quietly respecting eachother's choices.
We are beginning to come to some issues between the 7 year old girls, and I'm at a loss as to how to negotiate it.
What I notice is that the other child is extremely competitive and hates losing. My daughter loves games, and just loves the experience, understands that sometimes she wins and loses. I also suspect that my daughter's best friend is breaking "pinky promises" (which in my girls' world are sacred) so that she can appear to "win" (Pinky promising that she can jump 1000 times on her pogo stick for example.)
The other day we were on vacation together and they got in their worst fight yet... And my daughter reported later that her friend was just playing when it started. (I doubt it).
I'm just not sure how to help my daughter negotiate this friendship that she values sooooo highly.. I also find it a little difficult because for their whole lives, Abena (my daughter) has been so easy going, a "rule follower", and her friend has had more of a rambunctious streak-- less of a rule follower, more unattached, easily will lie, etc..
Abena tends to hold feelings in and doesn't like discussing the feelings aspect of any of this; but she will tell me about conversations they have sometimes. And I don't like to say-I think Liana isn't telling the truth.. Should I?
Anyways, i'm curious as to how other unschoolers have helped their children negotiate friendships with lesser-attached-to-their-family's children... These two have LOVED eachother since birth-- It's really the friendship my daughter values the most highly, and we have been moving around a lot so this is kind of the central friendship in her life.
We are beginning to come to some issues between the 7 year old girls, and I'm at a loss as to how to negotiate it.
What I notice is that the other child is extremely competitive and hates losing. My daughter loves games, and just loves the experience, understands that sometimes she wins and loses. I also suspect that my daughter's best friend is breaking "pinky promises" (which in my girls' world are sacred) so that she can appear to "win" (Pinky promising that she can jump 1000 times on her pogo stick for example.)
The other day we were on vacation together and they got in their worst fight yet... And my daughter reported later that her friend was just playing when it started. (I doubt it).
I'm just not sure how to help my daughter negotiate this friendship that she values sooooo highly.. I also find it a little difficult because for their whole lives, Abena (my daughter) has been so easy going, a "rule follower", and her friend has had more of a rambunctious streak-- less of a rule follower, more unattached, easily will lie, etc..
Abena tends to hold feelings in and doesn't like discussing the feelings aspect of any of this; but she will tell me about conversations they have sometimes. And I don't like to say-I think Liana isn't telling the truth.. Should I?
Anyways, i'm curious as to how other unschoolers have helped their children negotiate friendships with lesser-attached-to-their-family's children... These two have LOVED eachother since birth-- It's really the friendship my daughter values the most highly, and we have been moving around a lot so this is kind of the central friendship in her life.
Sandra Dodd
-=-And I don't like to say-I think Liana isn't telling the truth.. Should I?-=-
Maybe you could hint gently, and not say it right out loud.
When my kids were younger, when a friend or a friend's parent wasn't being honest I would more likely say some people have a hard time simply saying what's true. And I would remind my kids that it's important to try to be truthful, because it hurts other people's feelings and keeps them from trusting you if you're not careful what you say. And then I'd drop it. People are all going to have some friends they trust more than others, and some friends who are fun but not trustworthy.
-=-Anyways, i'm curious as to how other unschoolers have helped their children negotiate friendships with lesser-attached-to-their-family's children... These two have LOVED eachother since birth-- It's really the friendship my daughter values the most highly, and we have been moving around a lot so this is kind of the central friendship in her life. -=-
Find things they can do that don't involve dependence on truth. Miniature golf, maybe. :-) New and different places to hang out, maybe. And I would discourage those pinky-oaths, because they can easily turn into promising not to tell parents something, and that's a danger.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Maybe you could hint gently, and not say it right out loud.
When my kids were younger, when a friend or a friend's parent wasn't being honest I would more likely say some people have a hard time simply saying what's true. And I would remind my kids that it's important to try to be truthful, because it hurts other people's feelings and keeps them from trusting you if you're not careful what you say. And then I'd drop it. People are all going to have some friends they trust more than others, and some friends who are fun but not trustworthy.
-=-Anyways, i'm curious as to how other unschoolers have helped their children negotiate friendships with lesser-attached-to-their-family's children... These two have LOVED eachother since birth-- It's really the friendship my daughter values the most highly, and we have been moving around a lot so this is kind of the central friendship in her life. -=-
Find things they can do that don't involve dependence on truth. Miniature golf, maybe. :-) New and different places to hang out, maybe. And I would discourage those pinky-oaths, because they can easily turn into promising not to tell parents something, and that's a danger.
Sandra
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Schuyler
Your daughter wants to be friends with this girl. The friendship has huge value for her. You write that she values it sooooo highly. So support that. Be there for your daughter when things don't go well and try and make it easier for her to be friends with this girl. Make it easier for them to play together by being closer when they are playing, if that helps. Do fun things with them, like chalk drawings or go swimming or bowling or things outside of the quieter moments when pinky promises become part of the game.
1000 jumps on a pogo stick is a lot of jumping. Which probably would be how I'd respond if my daughter was disappointed by her friend's inability to keep that pinky promise. Or I'd talk about how many jumps I thought, realistically, I could do on the pogo stick and how amazing it would be to be able to do 1000. But I wouldn't call breaking that pinky promise lying. Nor would I hold it against her friend. Not understanding what 1000 is isn't really lying, it's not understanding the reality of what 1000 is.
I think, perhaps, you are struggling with who this little girl is and how she is different from your own little girl. Maybe that's part of what is magical to your daughter about their friendship. Maybe she really enjoys the chaos, the rambunctiousness of her friend. Maybe, even while there are costs to that kind of emotion, that kind of not quite reliability, there are benefits as well.
There is no guarantee that the friendship will last, people change and grow apart and have different needs. But right now, help you daughter to be friends with her friend. Make it easy for her to have fun playing with this girl who she enjoys so much.
Schuyler
1000 jumps on a pogo stick is a lot of jumping. Which probably would be how I'd respond if my daughter was disappointed by her friend's inability to keep that pinky promise. Or I'd talk about how many jumps I thought, realistically, I could do on the pogo stick and how amazing it would be to be able to do 1000. But I wouldn't call breaking that pinky promise lying. Nor would I hold it against her friend. Not understanding what 1000 is isn't really lying, it's not understanding the reality of what 1000 is.
I think, perhaps, you are struggling with who this little girl is and how she is different from your own little girl. Maybe that's part of what is magical to your daughter about their friendship. Maybe she really enjoys the chaos, the rambunctiousness of her friend. Maybe, even while there are costs to that kind of emotion, that kind of not quite reliability, there are benefits as well.
There is no guarantee that the friendship will last, people change and grow apart and have different needs. But right now, help you daughter to be friends with her friend. Make it easy for her to have fun playing with this girl who she enjoys so much.
Schuyler
----- Original Message -----
From: Shauna <shaunareisewitz@...>
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Sent: Sunday, 6 January 2013, 3:48
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Negotiating frinedships with "non-unschoolers"
My daughters have been "BFF's" with my girlfriends pair of daughters since before they were born. They are basically the same ages (2 girls age 7 and 2 age 4). My girlfriend of many years and I were pregnant together-- However, from birth our philosophies diverged- I home birthed, attachement parented, and am now unschooling.They have made mostly different choices, though still are close friends and good parents -- providing lots of fun and adventure in their kids lives..And we still as families hang out quite a bit. Kind of quietly respecting eachother's choices.
We are beginning to come to some issues between the 7 year old girls, and I'm at a loss as to how to negotiate it.
What I notice is that the other child is extremely competitive and hates losing. My daughter loves games, and just loves the experience, understands that sometimes she wins and loses. I also suspect that my daughter's best friend is breaking "pinky promises" (which in my girls' world are sacred) so that she can appear to "win" (Pinky promising that she can jump 1000 times on her pogo stick for example.)
The other day we were on vacation together and they got in their worst fight yet... And my daughter reported later that her friend was just playing when it started. (I doubt it).
I'm just not sure how to help my daughter negotiate this friendship that she values sooooo highly.. I also find it a little difficult because for their whole lives, Abena (my daughter) has been so easy going, a "rule follower", and her friend has had more of a rambunctious streak-- less of a rule follower, more unattached, easily will lie, etc..
Abena tends to hold feelings in and doesn't like discussing the feelings aspect of any of this; but she will tell me about conversations they have sometimes. And I don't like to say-I think Liana isn't telling the truth.. Should I?
Anyways, i'm curious as to how other unschoolers have helped their children negotiate friendships with lesser-attached-to-their-family's children... These two have LOVED eachother since birth-- It's really the friendship my daughter values the most highly, and we have been moving around a lot so this is kind of the central friendship in her life.
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Meredith
"Shauna" wrote:
I would say "she doesn't sound very reliable" or maybe trustworthy. Or maybe go right ahead and say she lies if it's obvious. Your daughter can Tell something's not right, it would be good of you to verify that for her so that she can think about how she wants to handle it.
I have a couple friends who are very grand liars. They tell the most fabulous stories - some of them with an outline of truth, some utterly fabricated. It's hard to tell, sometimes, when they're lying and when they're being honest because they're also really fun characters. It helps to chat with mutual friends about those stories and acknowledge together that...hmmm, that part didn't sound true, but you know... It helps to have that little hunch that "somethings not right" verified by another person.
Over time she may decide she doesn't like to play games with this friend, or only certain kinds of games. That's part of learning about the world and people and social interactions.
Some people are very competitive, and that doesn't have anything to do with how they are/were parented. My daughter loves to win - in a competitive situation she would rather win a game than play a good game, or a fair game. I can play some games against her and just let her win, but it's boring for me, so I don't do it often. I'll play With her, in a team sort of way, in a 2-player game, or sitting side by side playing the same game and helping one another because that lets her feel good about winning and me feel good about playing. For awhile she had a friend who came over every week to play video games (he's since moved) who was very firm that he would only play cooperatively with her, not against her. She enjoyed that, too.
So you might help your daughter come up with some games or ways to play that both girls can enjoy. Or maybe they're learning that playing games isn't the best way to further their relationship.
And it's important to keep in mind that just because they've known each other all their lives, that's no guarantee they'll be friends. 7 is a big transitional age, developmentally. Before age 7, it's much easier to throw kids together and know they'll have something in common simply by virtue of being little kids, but as kids get older, that stops being true. It may be this relationship is slowly ending, and that's okay - sad, but okay.
---Meredith
> And I don't like to say-I think Liana isn't telling the truth.. Should I?**********
I would say "she doesn't sound very reliable" or maybe trustworthy. Or maybe go right ahead and say she lies if it's obvious. Your daughter can Tell something's not right, it would be good of you to verify that for her so that she can think about how she wants to handle it.
I have a couple friends who are very grand liars. They tell the most fabulous stories - some of them with an outline of truth, some utterly fabricated. It's hard to tell, sometimes, when they're lying and when they're being honest because they're also really fun characters. It helps to chat with mutual friends about those stories and acknowledge together that...hmmm, that part didn't sound true, but you know... It helps to have that little hunch that "somethings not right" verified by another person.
>>I also suspect that my daughter's best friend is breaking "pinky promises"You might remind your daughter of that when she's getting ready to play with her friend. She can't be counted on to keep promises, so it's better not to ask her to promise anything and not rely on her. Knowing that up front can make a big difference in working things out.
>>> What I notice is that the other child is extremely competitive and hates losing. My daughter loves games, and just loves the experience, understands that sometimes she wins and loses.************
Over time she may decide she doesn't like to play games with this friend, or only certain kinds of games. That's part of learning about the world and people and social interactions.
Some people are very competitive, and that doesn't have anything to do with how they are/were parented. My daughter loves to win - in a competitive situation she would rather win a game than play a good game, or a fair game. I can play some games against her and just let her win, but it's boring for me, so I don't do it often. I'll play With her, in a team sort of way, in a 2-player game, or sitting side by side playing the same game and helping one another because that lets her feel good about winning and me feel good about playing. For awhile she had a friend who came over every week to play video games (he's since moved) who was very firm that he would only play cooperatively with her, not against her. She enjoyed that, too.
So you might help your daughter come up with some games or ways to play that both girls can enjoy. Or maybe they're learning that playing games isn't the best way to further their relationship.
And it's important to keep in mind that just because they've known each other all their lives, that's no guarantee they'll be friends. 7 is a big transitional age, developmentally. Before age 7, it's much easier to throw kids together and know they'll have something in common simply by virtue of being little kids, but as kids get older, that stops being true. It may be this relationship is slowly ending, and that's okay - sad, but okay.
---Meredith
Sandra Dodd
-=And it's important to keep in mind that just because they've known each other all their lives, that's no guarantee they'll be friends. 7 is a big transitional age, developmentally. Before age 7, it's much easier to throw kids together and know they'll have something in common simply by virtue of being little kids, but as kids get older, that stops being true. It may be this relationship is slowly ending, and that's okay - sad, but okay.-=-
My kids have come and gone, on friendship. I've seen some parents put pressure on kids to be friends because they will grow up to need to depend on each other,a nd they'll be related forever, and they owe each other this or that. I went the other way. I said when they were grown they never had to see each other again if they didn't want to. That took lots of pressure off, and when one of them was really frustrated with another one, the idea that it was all situational and temporary was comforting. Kirby was usually the one someone was unhappy with, but after he moved, both of his siblings have used their own job-earned money to go and visit him, and when he came to visit recently, they were both really excited. Marty's girlfriend was excited; Holly's boyfriend was excited to see him. They like him, too.
I think less pressure gives them the leeway to be friends just because they honestly like each other, without obligation.
When they were younger, a couple of times Kirby said "stupid" to Marty and I stopped him. I took Kirby aside and said Marty was NOT "stupid," and I didn't want him thinking he might be. Words hurt, I said. Probably that worked because we had a good relationship. There was one incident at the old house, so Kirby was younger than ten, and once at the new house. A couple of years had passed.
Some of their other friends from childhood are still around. One of them was a liar. I don't know that he still is. But the stories he told when he was younger weren't always true, and weren't always consistent. When someone recounts the same incident in very different ways, and then a third different way, it becomes wiser not to trust their first accounts very much. The kids knew not to believe or repeat stories; they still had fun playing games.
Some of their friends from younger days were not invited over so much as they got older. At the symposium Kirby told of the one serious physical altercation he and Marty were in. It was because Marty had told Kirby he was acting like Eric S____, who had once been Kirby's best friend, but became more irritating as he got older. Occasionally I hear one of my kids say they were at a party or show where Eric was, or they'll have a friend who knows him, but none of the reports seem positive. They were never mean or rejecting. It was gradual distance.
Sandra
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My kids have come and gone, on friendship. I've seen some parents put pressure on kids to be friends because they will grow up to need to depend on each other,a nd they'll be related forever, and they owe each other this or that. I went the other way. I said when they were grown they never had to see each other again if they didn't want to. That took lots of pressure off, and when one of them was really frustrated with another one, the idea that it was all situational and temporary was comforting. Kirby was usually the one someone was unhappy with, but after he moved, both of his siblings have used their own job-earned money to go and visit him, and when he came to visit recently, they were both really excited. Marty's girlfriend was excited; Holly's boyfriend was excited to see him. They like him, too.
I think less pressure gives them the leeway to be friends just because they honestly like each other, without obligation.
When they were younger, a couple of times Kirby said "stupid" to Marty and I stopped him. I took Kirby aside and said Marty was NOT "stupid," and I didn't want him thinking he might be. Words hurt, I said. Probably that worked because we had a good relationship. There was one incident at the old house, so Kirby was younger than ten, and once at the new house. A couple of years had passed.
Some of their other friends from childhood are still around. One of them was a liar. I don't know that he still is. But the stories he told when he was younger weren't always true, and weren't always consistent. When someone recounts the same incident in very different ways, and then a third different way, it becomes wiser not to trust their first accounts very much. The kids knew not to believe or repeat stories; they still had fun playing games.
Some of their friends from younger days were not invited over so much as they got older. At the symposium Kirby told of the one serious physical altercation he and Marty were in. It was because Marty had told Kirby he was acting like Eric S____, who had once been Kirby's best friend, but became more irritating as he got older. Occasionally I hear one of my kids say they were at a party or show where Eric was, or they'll have a friend who knows him, but none of the reports seem positive. They were never mean or rejecting. It was gradual distance.
Sandra
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jencookies43
I am having a little difficulty with the following statement you made:
~Jen
> My daughters have been "BFF's" with my girlfriends pair of daughters since before they were born. <Maybe you are putting too much emphasis on this relationship. How can they be Bffs since before they were born? I've had Bffs all through out my life. My earliest memory of making that conscience choice is around 4 maybe 5 years old. You might try allowing your girls to let this relationship flow on their own terms and not yours. You might have to face the reality that one or both of your girls does not want this relationship as badly as you do.
~Jen
Sandra Dodd
-=-Maybe you are putting too much emphasis on this relationship. How can they be Bffs since before they were born? I've had Bffs all through out my life. My earliest memory of making that conscience choice is around 4 maybe 5 years old. You might try allowing your girls to let this relationship flow on their own terms and not yours. You might have to face the reality that one or both of your girls does not want this relationship as badly as you do. -=-
Good point. It reminds me of the part in Pride and Prejudice, about the engagement since infancy:
"Let me be rightly understood. This match, to which you have the presumption to aspire, can never take place. No, never. Mr. Darcy is engaged to my daughter. Now what have you to say?"
"Only this; that if he is so, you can have no reason to suppose he will make an offer to me."
Lady Catherine hesitated for a moment, and then replied,
"The engagement between them is of a peculiar kind. From their infancy, they have been intended for each other. It was the favourite wish of his mother, as well as of her's. While in their cradles, we planned the union: and now, at the moment when the wishes of both sisters would be accomplished in their marriage, to be prevented by a young woman of inferior birth, of no importance in the world, and wholly unallied to the family! Do you pay no regard to the wishes of his friends? To his tacit engagement with Miss De Bourgh? Are you lost to every feeling of propriety and delicacy? Have you not heard me say that from his earliest hours he was destined for his cousin?"
Friendships can't be defined from outside. They should be allowed to wax and wane naturally. Sometimes something will make them stronger. Sometimes they start to fade away. Clinging to a friendship just because, just because it's old, can put a quicker end to it than just being pleasant when you're with the friend, and not rushing to get together again if it wasn't as comfortable as usual.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Good point. It reminds me of the part in Pride and Prejudice, about the engagement since infancy:
"Let me be rightly understood. This match, to which you have the presumption to aspire, can never take place. No, never. Mr. Darcy is engaged to my daughter. Now what have you to say?"
"Only this; that if he is so, you can have no reason to suppose he will make an offer to me."
Lady Catherine hesitated for a moment, and then replied,
"The engagement between them is of a peculiar kind. From their infancy, they have been intended for each other. It was the favourite wish of his mother, as well as of her's. While in their cradles, we planned the union: and now, at the moment when the wishes of both sisters would be accomplished in their marriage, to be prevented by a young woman of inferior birth, of no importance in the world, and wholly unallied to the family! Do you pay no regard to the wishes of his friends? To his tacit engagement with Miss De Bourgh? Are you lost to every feeling of propriety and delicacy? Have you not heard me say that from his earliest hours he was destined for his cousin?"
Friendships can't be defined from outside. They should be allowed to wax and wane naturally. Sometimes something will make them stronger. Sometimes they start to fade away. Clinging to a friendship just because, just because it's old, can put a quicker end to it than just being pleasant when you're with the friend, and not rushing to get together again if it wasn't as comfortable as usual.
Sandra
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