"…a martyr"
Sandra Dodd
Anyone who wants to help me start a topic to examine a concept, and a term, think or search archives here or your memory or google...
What's "to be a martyr"? When's it good? When is it bad. What IS it? Who says that word and why? What are they trying to create/avoid/manipulate/claim by the use of that word? How can those phrases be rephrased? Are there synonyms?
Let's dump some clues, evidence, etymology, what you can find about it and what it seems like to you (now, or earlier in your life, or in other people's lives or 100 years ago or 1000 years ago).
I have some ideas, but I want to put mine into a larger collection. You go first.
Sandra
What's "to be a martyr"? When's it good? When is it bad. What IS it? Who says that word and why? What are they trying to create/avoid/manipulate/claim by the use of that word? How can those phrases be rephrased? Are there synonyms?
Let's dump some clues, evidence, etymology, what you can find about it and what it seems like to you (now, or earlier in your life, or in other people's lives or 100 years ago or 1000 years ago).
I have some ideas, but I want to put mine into a larger collection. You go first.
Sandra
Joyce Fetteroll
On Dec 20, 2012, at 12:12 AM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
When it's used to ennoble the idea of seeing everyone else's needs as more important than your own, it's unhealthy. And generally results in being treated with the (lack of) respect the person is treating themselves with.
It's also used to describe someone who is making it known they're suffering in order to accomplish something. But if it's important other people know you're suffering, then it isn't martyrdom. It's emotional manipulation. And a good indication someone's self-worth depends too much on the regard of other people.
Being a mom (an unfortunate association)
Suffering for a greater good
I think where the concept of martyrdom has turned into a bad idea is when it's used to ennoble suffering for something greater. Suffering is passive. The idea that suffering is noble encourages people to put up with bad situations rather than work to change them. Putting up with pain as you work to make something better is good. Putting up with pain so someone else doesn't suffer shouldn't be a first choice. It should be an emergency choice, an "I've run out of ideas" choice.
Interestingly the "New Oxford American Dictionary" and the "Oxford Dictionary of [British] English" differ by one word in their definitions.
American: a person who displays or exaggerates their discomfortor distress in order to obtain sympathy or admiration:she wanted to play the martyr.
The British one leaves off "or admiration". I don't know if that means anything but it's curious!
Joyce
> What's "to be a martyr"? When's it good? When is it bad. What IS it? Who says that word and why? What are they trying to create/avoid/manipulate/claim by the use of that word? How can those phrases be rephrased?If martyr is left to mean sacrificing your life to preserve the life of someone or some movement with great promise then it's a good word and concept.
When it's used to ennoble the idea of seeing everyone else's needs as more important than your own, it's unhealthy. And generally results in being treated with the (lack of) respect the person is treating themselves with.
It's also used to describe someone who is making it known they're suffering in order to accomplish something. But if it's important other people know you're suffering, then it isn't martyrdom. It's emotional manipulation. And a good indication someone's self-worth depends too much on the regard of other people.
> Are there synonyms?Self-sacrifice
Being a mom (an unfortunate association)
Suffering for a greater good
I think where the concept of martyrdom has turned into a bad idea is when it's used to ennoble suffering for something greater. Suffering is passive. The idea that suffering is noble encourages people to put up with bad situations rather than work to change them. Putting up with pain as you work to make something better is good. Putting up with pain so someone else doesn't suffer shouldn't be a first choice. It should be an emergency choice, an "I've run out of ideas" choice.
Interestingly the "New Oxford American Dictionary" and the "Oxford Dictionary of [British] English" differ by one word in their definitions.
American: a person who displays or exaggerates their discomfortor distress in order to obtain sympathy or admiration:she wanted to play the martyr.
The British one leaves off "or admiration". I don't know if that means anything but it's curious!
Joyce
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Let's dump some clues, evidence, etymology, what you can find about it and what it seems like to you (now, or earlier in your life, or in other people's lives or 100 years ago or 1000 years ago).
>
> I have some ideas, but I want to put mine into a larger collection. You go first.
Robert and Colleen
****What's "to be a martyr"? When's it good? When is it bad. What IS it? Who
says that word and why? What are they trying to
create/avoid/manipulate/claim by the use of that word? How can those phrases
be rephrased? Are there synonyms?****
Mother-as-martyr is a sought after designation in my extended family.
There is high praise for family members and family friends who claim to
"give everything" for their kids - who exhaust themselves working long hours
for discretionary income while their kids are in daycare and school, who
leave their kids with babysitters at night so they can have their Me Time
(while at the same time claiming they never have even a *minute* for
themselves), who shuttle their kids on weekends to sport after
sport/activity after activity with little or no time for play or just
hanging out, who say things like "relaxation - what's that??" or "I hope I
have time to actually ENJOY the holidays this year" or "my kids are my
WORLD" - etc.
Somehow though, when people attempt to martyr themselves in this way (and to
get the attendant praise and attention) it all seems to be much more
self-serving than martyr-like.
A martyr's actions benefit others or benefit a greater good - but the
children of these mothers aren't benefiting from their mothers'
self-sacrificing behavior.
The kids are harried and hurried - and they are very aware of how harried
and hurried their mothers also are (because their mothers are constantly
telling them or the neighbors or anyone else who will listen). This in turn
leads to the kids feeling guilty and sad. The kids watch their mothers
suffer (and complain) supposedly in an attempt to please and serve them,
when in reality the kids don't seem to feel pleased or served at all :-)
It all reminds me of a political cartoon I'd saved for a long time and now
can't find. It had a child and a parent, and in each frame, the parent was
offering the child a new toy, a new game, a new this, a new that. And the
child was saying something like "Daddy offers me a new game but I don't want
a new game. Daddy offers me a new toy but I don't want a new toy. I don't
know what I want. Maybe parents."
Colleen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
says that word and why? What are they trying to
create/avoid/manipulate/claim by the use of that word? How can those phrases
be rephrased? Are there synonyms?****
Mother-as-martyr is a sought after designation in my extended family.
There is high praise for family members and family friends who claim to
"give everything" for their kids - who exhaust themselves working long hours
for discretionary income while their kids are in daycare and school, who
leave their kids with babysitters at night so they can have their Me Time
(while at the same time claiming they never have even a *minute* for
themselves), who shuttle their kids on weekends to sport after
sport/activity after activity with little or no time for play or just
hanging out, who say things like "relaxation - what's that??" or "I hope I
have time to actually ENJOY the holidays this year" or "my kids are my
WORLD" - etc.
Somehow though, when people attempt to martyr themselves in this way (and to
get the attendant praise and attention) it all seems to be much more
self-serving than martyr-like.
A martyr's actions benefit others or benefit a greater good - but the
children of these mothers aren't benefiting from their mothers'
self-sacrificing behavior.
The kids are harried and hurried - and they are very aware of how harried
and hurried their mothers also are (because their mothers are constantly
telling them or the neighbors or anyone else who will listen). This in turn
leads to the kids feeling guilty and sad. The kids watch their mothers
suffer (and complain) supposedly in an attempt to please and serve them,
when in reality the kids don't seem to feel pleased or served at all :-)
It all reminds me of a political cartoon I'd saved for a long time and now
can't find. It had a child and a parent, and in each frame, the parent was
offering the child a new toy, a new game, a new this, a new that. And the
child was saying something like "Daddy offers me a new game but I don't want
a new game. Daddy offers me a new toy but I don't want a new toy. I don't
know what I want. Maybe parents."
Colleen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=- The kids watch their mothers
suffer (and complain) supposedly in an attempt to please and serve them,
when in reality the kids don't seem to feel pleased or served at all :-)-=-
I hadn't even thought of that. The cloak of martyrdom without the actual service or sacrifice.
Some moms seem to have sacrificed their relationship with their child to have enough outward show that others will way "You have sacrificed so much!" maybe?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
suffer (and complain) supposedly in an attempt to please and serve them,
when in reality the kids don't seem to feel pleased or served at all :-)-=-
I hadn't even thought of that. The cloak of martyrdom without the actual service or sacrifice.
Some moms seem to have sacrificed their relationship with their child to have enough outward show that others will way "You have sacrificed so much!" maybe?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
kshamasati
I am not a first language English speaker & the first thing that came to my mind when I read Sandra's exploration of the word "martyr' was 'WAR'. In the context of war, a martyr would be a person who lays down his own life "selflessly" to be able to save the lives of many others like a soldier.. Or maybe someone who might end the lives of others (selfless???)& themselves in the process of holding up an ideal or a vision of what *they* think is ideal, like a terrorist. Either way, When the person chooses to be a soldier or terrorist, he/she signs up to be a martyr too....
Somehow it is difficult to reconcile the image of war & death with a loving parent-child relationship!
Within the context of a mother-child relationship how would the word martyr fit? is this martyr-mom sacrificing herself "selflessly" so that her child may live better? Does that make sense? Does it not imply automatically when you have a child that you do your best to give them the life that is the best you can think of? Do you become a martyr for doing it? If Terrorists could also be martyrs, then shouldn't we call the mom who sacrifices her own happiness & that of her child, to the ideal of the "perfect" mom a martyr? So what is then the point in becoming a martyr?
Maybe the difference is that in war & terrorism, you are really not around to enjoy being the martyr. But in motherhood, a martyr-mom is sympathized and empathized with. She receives appreciation for being a martyr and is around to soak it all up. In the end, sympathy & appreciation from others becomes the actual motivator to be the "martyr" rather than the life of the child or their happiness!
Being a "martyr" also seems to be closely associated with being selfless....I wonder what it really means to be selfish or selfless....
Kshama.
Somehow it is difficult to reconcile the image of war & death with a loving parent-child relationship!
Within the context of a mother-child relationship how would the word martyr fit? is this martyr-mom sacrificing herself "selflessly" so that her child may live better? Does that make sense? Does it not imply automatically when you have a child that you do your best to give them the life that is the best you can think of? Do you become a martyr for doing it? If Terrorists could also be martyrs, then shouldn't we call the mom who sacrifices her own happiness & that of her child, to the ideal of the "perfect" mom a martyr? So what is then the point in becoming a martyr?
Maybe the difference is that in war & terrorism, you are really not around to enjoy being the martyr. But in motherhood, a martyr-mom is sympathized and empathized with. She receives appreciation for being a martyr and is around to soak it all up. In the end, sympathy & appreciation from others becomes the actual motivator to be the "martyr" rather than the life of the child or their happiness!
Being a "martyr" also seems to be closely associated with being selfless....I wonder what it really means to be selfish or selfless....
Kshama.
Tam
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
But people who don't know her always tell her how lovely she is for the things she 'does', and that makes her happy.
So to me, the overriding sense of the word martyr is the way a person manipulates emotion through the illusion of self sacrifice.
Tam
>This was the first interpretation of the word martyr that came to mind for me, as this was what my mother did when we were children (and still now, if we allow her the opportunity). To some people it's so important that people on the outside 'see' how incredibly caring and self-sacrificing they are, that it's not important at all whether they are actually caring or even act so. I remember so many times as a child feeling utterly humiliated as my mother told family/friends/strangers in front of me of her latest selfless act that had put my needs over hers, that was never actually true; it was either a complete fabrication or was something designed not to meet my wants/needs but to look self-sacrificing. My friends would always say to me, "Your mum is sooo nice!", and she loved that, but it was what she showed them: this veneer of self sacrifice for what her children wanted, that wasn't real. When we left home, my grandmother moved in, and was used in the same way that we had been. This facet of how she wants people to see her is so important to her that she will actively avoid things that would make situations easier for her, because then it would limit the opportunities for martyrdom. If it can seem that the self-sacrifice has made her ill, even better.
>
> I hadn't even thought of that. The cloak of martyrdom without the actual service or sacrifice.
>
> Some moms seem to have sacrificed their relationship with their child to have enough outward show that others will way "You have sacrificed so much!" maybe?-=
But people who don't know her always tell her how lovely she is for the things she 'does', and that makes her happy.
So to me, the overriding sense of the word martyr is the way a person manipulates emotion through the illusion of self sacrifice.
Tam
Sandra Dodd
Yesterday on facebook, Karen James posted this:
"I slept and dreamt that life was joy. I awoke and saw that life was service. I acted and behold, service was joy." ~Rabindranath Tagore
(Thought of Sandra Dodd's "Service" page when I read this today.)
http://sandradodd.com/service
When we do something for someone else, it makes us a better person.
Lying about doing something for someone else doesn't. :-)
Doing something for self-aggrandizement (dven if it happens to serve others, kind of) is self-service.
I have two Weird Al quotes to bring now. Neither is a perfect match, but both might show a facet of a problem with why things are done and what we expect from others.
From "Amish Paradise,"
Think you're really righteous? Think you're pure in heart?
Well, I know I'm a million times as humble as thou art
And from "One More Minute,"
I guess I might seem kinda bitter
You got me feeling down in the dumps
'Cause I'm stranded all alone in the gas station of love
And I have to use the self-service pumps
There is an aspect of "I am such a martyr" that is emotional jackoff (and manipulation), and I think THAT is the kind of martyr people object to other people being.
But giving to someone lovingly and generously is NOT the same thing as looking over one's shoulder to make sure others are seeing them give and give.
Sandra
"I slept and dreamt that life was joy. I awoke and saw that life was service. I acted and behold, service was joy." ~Rabindranath Tagore
(Thought of Sandra Dodd's "Service" page when I read this today.)
http://sandradodd.com/service
When we do something for someone else, it makes us a better person.
Lying about doing something for someone else doesn't. :-)
Doing something for self-aggrandizement (dven if it happens to serve others, kind of) is self-service.
I have two Weird Al quotes to bring now. Neither is a perfect match, but both might show a facet of a problem with why things are done and what we expect from others.
From "Amish Paradise,"
Think you're really righteous? Think you're pure in heart?
Well, I know I'm a million times as humble as thou art
And from "One More Minute,"
I guess I might seem kinda bitter
You got me feeling down in the dumps
'Cause I'm stranded all alone in the gas station of love
And I have to use the self-service pumps
There is an aspect of "I am such a martyr" that is emotional jackoff (and manipulation), and I think THAT is the kind of martyr people object to other people being.
But giving to someone lovingly and generously is NOT the same thing as looking over one's shoulder to make sure others are seeing them give and give.
Sandra
Amanda Peck
Sandra,
I find this thread very thought-provoking. I have thought a lot about this in the last year that I've been a mom (our son is almost a year already!), and your thread gives me the opportunity to coalesce all my thoughts into a cohesive statement (okay it might be more rambling than cohesive, but bear with me).
First of all, when I was growing up, I had a mother who reminded me frequently of how much she was self-sacrificing for me and my brother. I don't specifically remember her using the term "martyr," but I also remember always associating this word with her in a negative context even as a child, as in "mom thinks she's such a martyr." I remember that I picked up the term from a very oppressive Sunday School that I absolutely hated going to, as the prevailing tone was that kids were evil and bad and I must learn how to be better from the "good" teachers. Martyrdom was taught as a good term to describe saints, and yet I still always associate a negative context with it for some reason. I don't quite know what exactly caused me to take this view at such an early age, but I'm sure it was a combination of things. I didn't exactly "learn" a lot about being good from the Sunday School teachers, so I instead built up negative feelings surrounding any of the "lessons" they scolded into me.
To go back to my mother, she formed a habit of describing how much all the things she did for me were a sacrifice on her part. If she cooked a good dinner that took longer than usual, she would remind us all throughout dinner how she got nothing else done that day, she had spent so much money on the meal, she was dead tired from slaving away in the kitchen all day, and finally she would ask everyone with baited expectation in her voice, "now does everyone appreciate the meal I spent so much of my precious time and energy on?" This tirade would inevitably cause the dinner, or gift, or anything else to lose its flavor or sparkle. I would end up feeling guilty that I didn't appreciate all the things she did for me, but I couldn't ever really feel joy about the gifts or good food if I was constantly told "you never appreciate the sacrifices I make for you." So it was self-fulfilling terminology that my mother used to tell me that I wasn't appreciative, after which I would end up feeling guilty and like I was "bad," and my mother would feel justified that she was right all along, yet she would feel down because she still thought all her efforts were self-sacrificing and unappreciated. It was a vicious cycle.
Since putting a few hundred miles between us, I must say I was able to slowly pull myself out of the centrifugal force of that vicious cycle of martyrdom and guilt with my mother. However, after having a son of my own, these thoughts have resurfaced, and I have started to really confront them. I have thought that of course I wouldn't fall into the same pattern my mother had, but I'm still running into deeply-ingrained thought processes that I think stem from language choices. For instance, the statements one of the other posters mentioned that are all-too-common in mothering circles today: "I never get a second to myself," "All I do is wipe butts and feed babies," "I never get to have 'me-time.'" All those thoughts (I wouldn't say these are things I said out loud as much as caught myself thinking) really stifled any feelings of kindness and openness, and I could tell that once I started with one thought about my "self-sacrificing," I would get stuck in a vicious cycle of negativity and self-fulfilling drudgery! Everything feels harder when I am in a negative frame of mind, and I get stuck focusing on what I wasn't getting or what I "had" to do. (I have read your page on "have to" and breaking away from that constricting way of thinking, Sandra, which is very helpful.) Once I realized that I was viewing myself as a "martyr," or my concept of a martyr in the context of my self-bemoaning "self-sacrificing" mother, and snapped myself out of it, it was amazing how much my load lifted and both me, my son, and my husband all get in better moods.
The other thing I should mention is when I get around other conventional parents of the same age, who speak mainly in the terms Colleen was talking about: "my kids are my world," and "relaxing, what's that?" etc., there is an expectation of contributing to this same dialogue. Those blanket martyr-like statements turn into statements pointed at myself and my son, or even direct questions like "do you get any time to yourself if you're always carrying and sleeping with him?" The statements or questions are always phrased in a way that the only acceptable answer seems to be a martyr-like complaint that we can moan over together! When I say something positive or disarming like "I enjoy it, and he'll be running around in no time," it ends up shutting down the conversation, like I'm someone who the other mom wanted to share a juicy tidbit of gossip with me and I had said something very condescending about how I do not gossip, thank you. I end up feeling like the other moms view me as condescending and better-than-thou because I don't complain about how horrible my life is and how I don't get a second to myself now that I'm a mom. It's interesting how not joining in with the negative, cliche comments about being a slaving, self-sacrificing, but "loving" mother (those things seem to go together in many people's eyes) seems to place me in a "she thinks she's better than us, who does she think she is" box by some parents. This is an interesting side of being a mother-martyr I wanted to bring up. So not only to people seem to talk about their self-sacrificing parenting choices in order to impress each other, it is also viewed as a way of being humble, and if you don't join in, you're full of yourself. It's an interesting angle.
In the last year I have realized the importance of surrounding myself with like-minded and positive parents, and not letting those negative-thinking parents get me down! It is easy to fall into that trap, even without other people to bring you down. It's so pervasive in our culture, to think once you have a child, "you'll never have time to yourself or enough sleep for the next 18 years!" I got very tired of people (even strangers) telling me when I was nearing the end of my pregnancy, "sleep now, you won't be getting any of that soon!" I think all these off-handed remarks add up to a very difficult cycle of thought to break free of. Our language certainly forms our thoughts, and I wish more people would challenge negative parenting cliches more as you do, Sandra, and all others on this wonderful list. If we stop the martyr-like mothering statements to each other and to ourselves, it opens up the possibility for change and the freedom to enjoy our new lives and partnerships with our children. Our relationships with our children can be on an equal level instead of always self-sacrificing and guilt-inducing as is the norm.
Hope this is of use to your dialogue, Sandra. Thanks for all the great challenges towards conventional statements.
Amanda
I find this thread very thought-provoking. I have thought a lot about this in the last year that I've been a mom (our son is almost a year already!), and your thread gives me the opportunity to coalesce all my thoughts into a cohesive statement (okay it might be more rambling than cohesive, but bear with me).
First of all, when I was growing up, I had a mother who reminded me frequently of how much she was self-sacrificing for me and my brother. I don't specifically remember her using the term "martyr," but I also remember always associating this word with her in a negative context even as a child, as in "mom thinks she's such a martyr." I remember that I picked up the term from a very oppressive Sunday School that I absolutely hated going to, as the prevailing tone was that kids were evil and bad and I must learn how to be better from the "good" teachers. Martyrdom was taught as a good term to describe saints, and yet I still always associate a negative context with it for some reason. I don't quite know what exactly caused me to take this view at such an early age, but I'm sure it was a combination of things. I didn't exactly "learn" a lot about being good from the Sunday School teachers, so I instead built up negative feelings surrounding any of the "lessons" they scolded into me.
To go back to my mother, she formed a habit of describing how much all the things she did for me were a sacrifice on her part. If she cooked a good dinner that took longer than usual, she would remind us all throughout dinner how she got nothing else done that day, she had spent so much money on the meal, she was dead tired from slaving away in the kitchen all day, and finally she would ask everyone with baited expectation in her voice, "now does everyone appreciate the meal I spent so much of my precious time and energy on?" This tirade would inevitably cause the dinner, or gift, or anything else to lose its flavor or sparkle. I would end up feeling guilty that I didn't appreciate all the things she did for me, but I couldn't ever really feel joy about the gifts or good food if I was constantly told "you never appreciate the sacrifices I make for you." So it was self-fulfilling terminology that my mother used to tell me that I wasn't appreciative, after which I would end up feeling guilty and like I was "bad," and my mother would feel justified that she was right all along, yet she would feel down because she still thought all her efforts were self-sacrificing and unappreciated. It was a vicious cycle.
Since putting a few hundred miles between us, I must say I was able to slowly pull myself out of the centrifugal force of that vicious cycle of martyrdom and guilt with my mother. However, after having a son of my own, these thoughts have resurfaced, and I have started to really confront them. I have thought that of course I wouldn't fall into the same pattern my mother had, but I'm still running into deeply-ingrained thought processes that I think stem from language choices. For instance, the statements one of the other posters mentioned that are all-too-common in mothering circles today: "I never get a second to myself," "All I do is wipe butts and feed babies," "I never get to have 'me-time.'" All those thoughts (I wouldn't say these are things I said out loud as much as caught myself thinking) really stifled any feelings of kindness and openness, and I could tell that once I started with one thought about my "self-sacrificing," I would get stuck in a vicious cycle of negativity and self-fulfilling drudgery! Everything feels harder when I am in a negative frame of mind, and I get stuck focusing on what I wasn't getting or what I "had" to do. (I have read your page on "have to" and breaking away from that constricting way of thinking, Sandra, which is very helpful.) Once I realized that I was viewing myself as a "martyr," or my concept of a martyr in the context of my self-bemoaning "self-sacrificing" mother, and snapped myself out of it, it was amazing how much my load lifted and both me, my son, and my husband all get in better moods.
The other thing I should mention is when I get around other conventional parents of the same age, who speak mainly in the terms Colleen was talking about: "my kids are my world," and "relaxing, what's that?" etc., there is an expectation of contributing to this same dialogue. Those blanket martyr-like statements turn into statements pointed at myself and my son, or even direct questions like "do you get any time to yourself if you're always carrying and sleeping with him?" The statements or questions are always phrased in a way that the only acceptable answer seems to be a martyr-like complaint that we can moan over together! When I say something positive or disarming like "I enjoy it, and he'll be running around in no time," it ends up shutting down the conversation, like I'm someone who the other mom wanted to share a juicy tidbit of gossip with me and I had said something very condescending about how I do not gossip, thank you. I end up feeling like the other moms view me as condescending and better-than-thou because I don't complain about how horrible my life is and how I don't get a second to myself now that I'm a mom. It's interesting how not joining in with the negative, cliche comments about being a slaving, self-sacrificing, but "loving" mother (those things seem to go together in many people's eyes) seems to place me in a "she thinks she's better than us, who does she think she is" box by some parents. This is an interesting side of being a mother-martyr I wanted to bring up. So not only to people seem to talk about their self-sacrificing parenting choices in order to impress each other, it is also viewed as a way of being humble, and if you don't join in, you're full of yourself. It's an interesting angle.
In the last year I have realized the importance of surrounding myself with like-minded and positive parents, and not letting those negative-thinking parents get me down! It is easy to fall into that trap, even without other people to bring you down. It's so pervasive in our culture, to think once you have a child, "you'll never have time to yourself or enough sleep for the next 18 years!" I got very tired of people (even strangers) telling me when I was nearing the end of my pregnancy, "sleep now, you won't be getting any of that soon!" I think all these off-handed remarks add up to a very difficult cycle of thought to break free of. Our language certainly forms our thoughts, and I wish more people would challenge negative parenting cliches more as you do, Sandra, and all others on this wonderful list. If we stop the martyr-like mothering statements to each other and to ourselves, it opens up the possibility for change and the freedom to enjoy our new lives and partnerships with our children. Our relationships with our children can be on an equal level instead of always self-sacrificing and guilt-inducing as is the norm.
Hope this is of use to your dialogue, Sandra. Thanks for all the great challenges towards conventional statements.
Amanda
Sandra Dodd
This is big:
-=-I'm still running into deeply-ingrained thought processes that I think stem from language choices. -=-
People have voices in their heads. They're like little recordings that turn themselves on at "appropriate" (to their purpose) times. It's creepy.
Freud called that the superego (or rather part of the superego was those ingrained messages).
Sometimes it's thought of as being "conscience" and is drawn traditionally in some (maybe all) of European culture as an angel on the shoulder whispering in a person's ear, while a devil (that would be Freud' id, maybe with a little ego angel/devil on HIS shoulder) whispering "just do it!" in the other ear.
It's as though people are designed to carry reminder messages in their heads, and that can be good if the person has the wherewithal to pick and choose among them for reasons that he understands, for reasons that are useful to his progress and wellbeing. It's bad for a person who believes and fears everything she hears (no matter how many times she's heard it, or how little sense it might make if she thought about it).
Sometimes there are newish messages like "me time."
-=-When I say something positive or disarming like "I enjoy it, and he'll be running around in no time," it ends up shutting down the conversation, like I'm someone who the other mom wanted to share a juicy tidbit of gossip with me and I had said something very condescending about how I do not gossip, thank you. I end up feeling like the other moms view me as condescending and better-than-thou because I don't complain about how horrible my life is and how I don't get a second to myself now that I'm a mom. It's interesting how not joining in with the negative, cliche comments about being a slaving, self-sacrificing, but "loving" mother (those things seem to go together in many people's eyes) seems to place me in a "she thinks she's better than us, who does she think she is" box by some parents. This is an interesting side of being a mother-martyr I wanted to bring up. So not only to people seem to talk about their self-sacrificing parenting choices in order to impress each other, it is also viewed as a way of being humble, and if you don't join in, you're full of yourself. It's an interesting angle. -=-
Last night Keith and I went to a potluck dinner with mostly childless couples. I think maybe all childless couples, though one of the dads has two boys grown, from an earlier marriage (I knew them and their mom, too, 25 years ago). We didn't talk about our kids much. When I mentioned that Holly had turned 21, our host (whom I've known for over 30 years) asked "Did you change the locks?" I said no, and looked disapprovingly at him, and he said oh, right; Martin's still home too, huh... and he said (a story I had never heard before) that for high school graduation his mother gave him luggage, and within a year she had put the drawers from his dresser, with the clothes in them, out in the front yard. He ended up going across the country for college, and being drafted to Viet Nam. That's another story.
The people there were almost all from the Society for Creative Anachronism, and some of the conversation was about that (though much was about birds of prey, and rendering lard, and cooking, and post-and-beam construction, wild animal sightings in the southern Manzanos.... GOOD stuff). Only once was I briefly draw into a conversation about the SCA, and it was bout how terrible the current newsletter editor is and how crappy the local webpage is.
I was involved in the club from 1976 to a few years ago. I know a LOT about newsletter production and the needs of our local group. I have some resentments woven in with what I know. I was stirred, a bit, before I extricated myself and went to eat grapes and talk about the wooden candle-driven nativity machine (what are those called?? we didn't know).
This morning Keith and I talked about how interested he still is in the doings of the group (Marty is very active too), and how irritable I can get so easily when people press me to respond. :-)
What I told Keith was that it was like the kids at school who used to give me a flood of criticism about getting good grades, being nice to new kids, helping teachers, being friendly with the people in the office, the administrators, the counselor, about helping after school, about finishing my homework all the time... rag, rag, rag about how I shouldn't be that way, and that I was making the rest of them look bad, and I didn't "HAVE" to do those things and that i was stupid to do those things.
Someone a year or so ago went off on me about my unschooling writing/speaking, and said "we" (speaking of her and her friends, or of her and all unschoolers the world over, or her and her tapeworms, not sure) had hoped that when my kids were grown I would stop and let other people do it, but no, I was still around (making her miserable, or her and her friends, or her and all unschoolers the world over). The message was that I didn't have to, should NOT, was being stupid, and so forth.
And in a group where there is a stated purpose about medieval studies and re-creations, when I mentioned that a song from the 15th century was better than a song from the 18th century, people would whine and complain and say I was too picky and uptight.
It's just that I was unwilling to invest that much of my time and knowledge and energy in people who didn't give a rat's ass about the difference between the 1700s and the 1500's. And for some of you, that will make perfect sense (not to care, I mean, because old is old).
So with parenting, if we will stoop and aim for average or below average, we will be doing a kindness to those who don't even aspire to do their best, who do not intend to sacrifice the least little BIT, who believe "compromise" means everyone else giving them their way.
I get tired of it.
And being a good parent is not martyrdom. It's this: Being (in essence, in life, in thought, in action) a good (not bad, not average, but quality/careful/positive) parent.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-=-I'm still running into deeply-ingrained thought processes that I think stem from language choices. -=-
People have voices in their heads. They're like little recordings that turn themselves on at "appropriate" (to their purpose) times. It's creepy.
Freud called that the superego (or rather part of the superego was those ingrained messages).
Sometimes it's thought of as being "conscience" and is drawn traditionally in some (maybe all) of European culture as an angel on the shoulder whispering in a person's ear, while a devil (that would be Freud' id, maybe with a little ego angel/devil on HIS shoulder) whispering "just do it!" in the other ear.
It's as though people are designed to carry reminder messages in their heads, and that can be good if the person has the wherewithal to pick and choose among them for reasons that he understands, for reasons that are useful to his progress and wellbeing. It's bad for a person who believes and fears everything she hears (no matter how many times she's heard it, or how little sense it might make if she thought about it).
Sometimes there are newish messages like "me time."
-=-When I say something positive or disarming like "I enjoy it, and he'll be running around in no time," it ends up shutting down the conversation, like I'm someone who the other mom wanted to share a juicy tidbit of gossip with me and I had said something very condescending about how I do not gossip, thank you. I end up feeling like the other moms view me as condescending and better-than-thou because I don't complain about how horrible my life is and how I don't get a second to myself now that I'm a mom. It's interesting how not joining in with the negative, cliche comments about being a slaving, self-sacrificing, but "loving" mother (those things seem to go together in many people's eyes) seems to place me in a "she thinks she's better than us, who does she think she is" box by some parents. This is an interesting side of being a mother-martyr I wanted to bring up. So not only to people seem to talk about their self-sacrificing parenting choices in order to impress each other, it is also viewed as a way of being humble, and if you don't join in, you're full of yourself. It's an interesting angle. -=-
Last night Keith and I went to a potluck dinner with mostly childless couples. I think maybe all childless couples, though one of the dads has two boys grown, from an earlier marriage (I knew them and their mom, too, 25 years ago). We didn't talk about our kids much. When I mentioned that Holly had turned 21, our host (whom I've known for over 30 years) asked "Did you change the locks?" I said no, and looked disapprovingly at him, and he said oh, right; Martin's still home too, huh... and he said (a story I had never heard before) that for high school graduation his mother gave him luggage, and within a year she had put the drawers from his dresser, with the clothes in them, out in the front yard. He ended up going across the country for college, and being drafted to Viet Nam. That's another story.
The people there were almost all from the Society for Creative Anachronism, and some of the conversation was about that (though much was about birds of prey, and rendering lard, and cooking, and post-and-beam construction, wild animal sightings in the southern Manzanos.... GOOD stuff). Only once was I briefly draw into a conversation about the SCA, and it was bout how terrible the current newsletter editor is and how crappy the local webpage is.
I was involved in the club from 1976 to a few years ago. I know a LOT about newsletter production and the needs of our local group. I have some resentments woven in with what I know. I was stirred, a bit, before I extricated myself and went to eat grapes and talk about the wooden candle-driven nativity machine (what are those called?? we didn't know).
This morning Keith and I talked about how interested he still is in the doings of the group (Marty is very active too), and how irritable I can get so easily when people press me to respond. :-)
What I told Keith was that it was like the kids at school who used to give me a flood of criticism about getting good grades, being nice to new kids, helping teachers, being friendly with the people in the office, the administrators, the counselor, about helping after school, about finishing my homework all the time... rag, rag, rag about how I shouldn't be that way, and that I was making the rest of them look bad, and I didn't "HAVE" to do those things and that i was stupid to do those things.
Someone a year or so ago went off on me about my unschooling writing/speaking, and said "we" (speaking of her and her friends, or of her and all unschoolers the world over, or her and her tapeworms, not sure) had hoped that when my kids were grown I would stop and let other people do it, but no, I was still around (making her miserable, or her and her friends, or her and all unschoolers the world over). The message was that I didn't have to, should NOT, was being stupid, and so forth.
And in a group where there is a stated purpose about medieval studies and re-creations, when I mentioned that a song from the 15th century was better than a song from the 18th century, people would whine and complain and say I was too picky and uptight.
It's just that I was unwilling to invest that much of my time and knowledge and energy in people who didn't give a rat's ass about the difference between the 1700s and the 1500's. And for some of you, that will make perfect sense (not to care, I mean, because old is old).
So with parenting, if we will stoop and aim for average or below average, we will be doing a kindness to those who don't even aspire to do their best, who do not intend to sacrifice the least little BIT, who believe "compromise" means everyone else giving them their way.
I get tired of it.
And being a good parent is not martyrdom. It's this: Being (in essence, in life, in thought, in action) a good (not bad, not average, but quality/careful/positive) parent.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Hope this is of use to your dialogue, Sandra. Thanks for all the great challenges towards conventional statements. -=-
Amanda, I loved what you wrote.
I have an old friend coming to town. He asked if he could stay here, but I told him Joyce would be here (and Carl, I didn't say) and Kirby (and I didn't say Katie) and I was doing a symposium. So he found another place to stay, and has invited me over there for the Saturday after the symposium.
I don't want to go.
I'm trying to figure out whether I want to take him to lunch or breakfast one day instead, or just to say I don't want to be around the cynicism, politics and negativity it's sure to be. With each passing year I'm less willing to put up with negativity "just to be nice."
Probably, for me, part of it is being old! I don't have a need to invest in future friendships the way a thirty-year-old might have. I don't want even one evening of bitchy gossip or sob stories. That store doesn't even have to do with my kids. When my kids were younger it was easy to avoid the cynical crowds, and the childless friends were generally not part of my life while my kids were growing up.
Sometimes people are in a social or physical situation in which they DO need to maintain relations with people (small town, church involvement, family relationships) but if they're "just friends" and you don't "have to" be around them, perhaps it's worth considering some distance at least while kids are young.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Amanda, I loved what you wrote.
I have an old friend coming to town. He asked if he could stay here, but I told him Joyce would be here (and Carl, I didn't say) and Kirby (and I didn't say Katie) and I was doing a symposium. So he found another place to stay, and has invited me over there for the Saturday after the symposium.
I don't want to go.
I'm trying to figure out whether I want to take him to lunch or breakfast one day instead, or just to say I don't want to be around the cynicism, politics and negativity it's sure to be. With each passing year I'm less willing to put up with negativity "just to be nice."
Probably, for me, part of it is being old! I don't have a need to invest in future friendships the way a thirty-year-old might have. I don't want even one evening of bitchy gossip or sob stories. That store doesn't even have to do with my kids. When my kids were younger it was easy to avoid the cynical crowds, and the childless friends were generally not part of my life while my kids were growing up.
Sometimes people are in a social or physical situation in which they DO need to maintain relations with people (small town, church involvement, family relationships) but if they're "just friends" and you don't "have to" be around them, perhaps it's worth considering some distance at least while kids are young.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Juliet Kemp
On Sat, Dec 22, 2012 at 11:21:58AM -0600, Amanda Peck wrote:
put on the spot occasionally. (my stock phrase is "well, it works well
for us")
But an interesting thing I also thought is that there is a way of
expressing nearly-similar experiences in a positive way. I saw friends
yesterday/today whose 6 mth old has a bad cold & will only sleep propped
up on a sitting-up parent; my nearly-10 mth old is going through a
super-frequent night-feeding patch; so all 3 of us were pretty tired!
And we made a few jokes about it and commiserated a bit, and we played
with the kids and had a couple of lovely meals, and all that. But none
of us (I think!) were doing the 'martyr' thing & none of us were
complaining or moaning or suggesting that we were "sacrificing"
ourselves. This are the things that are happening right now, and that's
all fine. Soon enough it'll be something else happening, after all :)
Some bits of parenting are tough, sometimes, and saying "wow, I'm kind
of knackered today" to someone who has also been there can be helpful.
But turning it into the martyred "poor me I am such a slaving
self-sacrificing parent" "oh this is awful" - yeah, I think that makes it
tougher, too.
A side-note: I wrote "commiserated" and then wondered if that was the
right word if not expressing complaint, so I looked it up (thanks to
Sandra for suggesting this by example!). The OED has " To sympathize or
express sympathy with." (and a couple of obsolete uses including "to
bewail" and "to express compassion for") and Merriam-Webster has
"Express or feel sympathy or pity; sympathize.". Sympathy perhaps does
suggest a wrong or hurt to be sympathised with; perhaps I am looking
more for a word which suggests empathising with, but I can't think of
one right now.
For me (UK English speaker), 'martyr' definitely has negative
connotations. Actually, someone in this discussion suggested that their
UK-English dictionary & their American-English dictionary had slightly
different definitions. The OED has a bunch of definitions associated
with undergoing death or sufferng for a faith/belief/cause; but also a
'hyperbolic or humorous' usage:
" 4. Hyperbolically or humorously.
a. A person who suffers, or behaves as if suffering, acute or extended
pain, unhappiness, emotional torment, etc.; a constant sufferer (to an
ailment, etc.). Also in extended use.
b. to make a martyr of : to subject to hardship or inconvenience; to
sacrifice (someone) in a cause; to make a martyr of oneself : to make a
real or pretended sacrifice of one's inclinations in order to gain
credit."
I think when thinking about the "mum as martyr" idea, it's this last
notion of "sacrificing to gain credit" that is in my head. The sacrifice
may be real rather than pretended, but it doesn't always seem to be
*necessary*. (Or the way they think about it isn't necessary.) Credit
with whom? Probably not their kids. (And dads don't seem to be described
as 'martyrs' or to use that notion of themselves, either, very often.)
Juliet
>I recognise some of that conventional dialogue. I too have felt a bit
> === The other thing I should mention is when I get around other
> conventional parents of the same age, who speak mainly in the terms
> Colleen was talking about: "my kids are my world," and "relaxing,
> what's that?" etc., there is an expectation of contributing to this
> same dialogue. Those blanket martyr-like statements turn into
> statements pointed at myself and my son, or even direct questions like
> "do you get any time to yourself if you're always carrying and
> sleeping with him?" The statements or questions are always phrased in
> a way that the only acceptable answer seems to be a martyr-like
> complaint that we can moan over together! When I say something
> positive or disarming like "I enjoy it, and he'll be running around in
> no time," it ends up shutting down the conversation ====
put on the spot occasionally. (my stock phrase is "well, it works well
for us")
But an interesting thing I also thought is that there is a way of
expressing nearly-similar experiences in a positive way. I saw friends
yesterday/today whose 6 mth old has a bad cold & will only sleep propped
up on a sitting-up parent; my nearly-10 mth old is going through a
super-frequent night-feeding patch; so all 3 of us were pretty tired!
And we made a few jokes about it and commiserated a bit, and we played
with the kids and had a couple of lovely meals, and all that. But none
of us (I think!) were doing the 'martyr' thing & none of us were
complaining or moaning or suggesting that we were "sacrificing"
ourselves. This are the things that are happening right now, and that's
all fine. Soon enough it'll be something else happening, after all :)
Some bits of parenting are tough, sometimes, and saying "wow, I'm kind
of knackered today" to someone who has also been there can be helpful.
But turning it into the martyred "poor me I am such a slaving
self-sacrificing parent" "oh this is awful" - yeah, I think that makes it
tougher, too.
A side-note: I wrote "commiserated" and then wondered if that was the
right word if not expressing complaint, so I looked it up (thanks to
Sandra for suggesting this by example!). The OED has " To sympathize or
express sympathy with." (and a couple of obsolete uses including "to
bewail" and "to express compassion for") and Merriam-Webster has
"Express or feel sympathy or pity; sympathize.". Sympathy perhaps does
suggest a wrong or hurt to be sympathised with; perhaps I am looking
more for a word which suggests empathising with, but I can't think of
one right now.
For me (UK English speaker), 'martyr' definitely has negative
connotations. Actually, someone in this discussion suggested that their
UK-English dictionary & their American-English dictionary had slightly
different definitions. The OED has a bunch of definitions associated
with undergoing death or sufferng for a faith/belief/cause; but also a
'hyperbolic or humorous' usage:
" 4. Hyperbolically or humorously.
a. A person who suffers, or behaves as if suffering, acute or extended
pain, unhappiness, emotional torment, etc.; a constant sufferer (to an
ailment, etc.). Also in extended use.
b. to make a martyr of : to subject to hardship or inconvenience; to
sacrifice (someone) in a cause; to make a martyr of oneself : to make a
real or pretended sacrifice of one's inclinations in order to gain
credit."
I think when thinking about the "mum as martyr" idea, it's this last
notion of "sacrificing to gain credit" that is in my head. The sacrifice
may be real rather than pretended, but it doesn't always seem to be
*necessary*. (Or the way they think about it isn't necessary.) Credit
with whom? Probably not their kids. (And dads don't seem to be described
as 'martyrs' or to use that notion of themselves, either, very often.)
Juliet
Christine Milne
> But in motherhood, a martyr-mom is sympathized and empathized with. She receives appreciation for being a martyr and is around to soak it all up. In the end,My mum’s behaviour as I grew up was martyr like. What *I* mean by that is, ‘putting the needs of others before herself’, ‘sacrificing her own good for the good of her family’. Not at all for the sake of what people thought of her, she did it all quietly and never complained that I can remember.
> sympathy & appreciation from others becomes the actual motivator to be the "martyr" rather than the life of the child or their happiness!
As a child, this seemed wonderful. She gave to me – time, mostly, and sometimes stuff although there wasn’t too much stuff. I remember once she had been saving for a new coat for herself, for a long time.....I can clearly picture her taking the money out of the box to give it to me. For new shoes? I don’t remember. All I remember now is that at the time it meant very little to me, I could take more and more of whatever she gave me, as I tried to fill a hole that really couldn’t be filled that way. I felt bad that she wasn’t going to get her coat, but I had a huge need inside of me, and maybe that money might fix it. And she gave ever more and more, trying to make things right I think. I suspect my mum couldn’t love me the way I needed to be loved because she didn’t love herself enough. Her mother had neglected her and she’d had a very difficult childhood. She was trying so hard to do the right thing, but not knowing how.
After she died I read a scribbled note in a diary, ‘I just want some time to myself’. We were a large family, and she ran around after all of us, the whole extended family. She travelled up and down the country to look after troubled cousins, she took in the drunk uncle when his wife threw him out, she did her mum’s laundry and shopping, bathed her, she made all my dance costumes and ones for all the other mums that couldn’t sew, well, I could go on at length. Running around her whole life, trying to look after everyone. We all thought she was amazing (she was), but I wish she had taken care of her own needs. She didn’t know how, and she was raised to always put others before herself.
Becoming a mother myself gave me a little insight....I think my Mum was aware that she was unable to give me what I really needed, and she tried so very hard to make up for that by running herself ragged, giving me and the rest of our family all of her time. Which reading back sounds kind of wonderful, that she gave me so much time, and in many ways it was. But I wish she had taken that time for herself, more often. I might have felt the same lack, but she would have lived longer, and I would not have had the huge burden of guilt that I had. She did not soak up any appreciation or revel in any satisfaction that she was doing so much – she was genuinely worn out and stressed by her life. But she was unable to stop.
So in my mum’s case at least, the martyrdom was not ‘fake’, or done to get credit, but I do think it was an attempt at meeting her own needs. Perhaps to assuage guilt, perhaps to find a way to feel good about herself, perhaps an attempt to be a ‘good’ mother/wife/daughter/aunt/sister etc. I do know people that grumble about how much they do when in fact they are doing very little, but that is not the only type of ‘mother as martyr’. I’m sure my mum was not unique in genuinely sacrificing her own needs to try and do the right thing. She was generous, she was loving, but not to herself, and I think that was not healthy for her, or for me.
I hope this isn’t too garbled, I have tried to write very carefully to describe my mum and a type of martyr I’ve not yet seen described.
Christine
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I suspect my mum couldn�t love me the way I needed to be loved because she didn�t love herself enough. Her mother had neglected her and she�d had a very difficult childhood. She was trying so hard to do the right thing, but not knowing how.-=-
If her mom or dad had an alcohol or drug problem, it could be a pattern that shows up a lot; I used to live that way. If the child or young adult is PERFECT, then the parent will be redeemed. Of if the child can compensate for the parents' failings, then the other siblings will be saved.
There are other lists and descriptions, but this one is easy. Perhaps she had some of these traits, for these reasons.
http://www.adultchildren.org/lit/Laundry_List.php
Even if we or our parents had dysfunctional childhoods, we can look for ways to keep our own children from those sorrows.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
If her mom or dad had an alcohol or drug problem, it could be a pattern that shows up a lot; I used to live that way. If the child or young adult is PERFECT, then the parent will be redeemed. Of if the child can compensate for the parents' failings, then the other siblings will be saved.
There are other lists and descriptions, but this one is easy. Perhaps she had some of these traits, for these reasons.
http://www.adultchildren.org/lit/Laundry_List.php
Even if we or our parents had dysfunctional childhoods, we can look for ways to keep our own children from those sorrows.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Christine Milne
> Even if we or our parents had dysfunctional childhoods, we can look forIndeed. It's what my mum was trying to do, and what I am trying to do.
> ways to keep our own children from those sorrows.
There was no alcoholism, but some of those traits apply regardless. In
particular, 'We have "stuffed" our feelings from our traumatic childhoods
and have lost the ability to feel or express our feelings because it hurts
so much (Denial)'. This stands out to me, I guess because that was the thing
that was most painful for me as a child. My mum was generous with her time
to the point of being a martyr, yet she could not express (or even feel?)
her love for me.
I have always presumed that my grandmother also had a traumatic childhood.
She was the type of martyr that did nothing at all for her children yet
would have us believe that she did everything for them. My mum went a long
way towards stopping the cycle repeating again with her children, I hope
that I will finish the job with my daughter.
Christine
Sandra Dodd
-=-I am not a first language English speaker & the first thing that came to my mind when I read Sandra's exploration of the word "martyr' was 'WAR'. In the context of war, a martyr would be a person who lays down his own life "selflessly" to be able to save the lives of many others like a soldier.. Or maybe someone who might end the lives of others (selfless???)& themselves in the process of holding up an ideal or a vision of what *they* think is ideal, like a terrorist. Either way, When the person chooses to be a soldier or terrorist, he/she signs up to be a martyr too....
-=-Somehow it is difficult to reconcile the image of war & death with a loving parent-child relationship!-=-
I think most parents would risk their lives to save a child, especially a baby or toddler.
There are medals for martyrdom.
I went to see if there was one. I think the Medal of Honor (in the U.S.) can be for someone who lives or dies either way.
Medal of Honor
Awarded for "Gallantry and intrepidity at risk of life above and beyond the call of duty"
Silver Star Awarded for "Gallantry in action"
Parents can be gallant and intrepid. :-)
I think it makes them heroic!
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-=-Somehow it is difficult to reconcile the image of war & death with a loving parent-child relationship!-=-
I think most parents would risk their lives to save a child, especially a baby or toddler.
There are medals for martyrdom.
I went to see if there was one. I think the Medal of Honor (in the U.S.) can be for someone who lives or dies either way.
Medal of Honor
Awarded for "Gallantry and intrepidity at risk of life above and beyond the call of duty"
Silver Star Awarded for "Gallantry in action"
Parents can be gallant and intrepid. :-)
I think it makes them heroic!
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Meredith
My mom rebelled hard against the idea of being a "martyr mom" - she saw her mom that way and saw her "martyrdom" as coming from an inability or disinclination to stand up against the men in her life. Grandma was a martyr to the patriarchy. My mom's rebellious motto was "better a bitch than a doormat" - a martyr, to my mom, was a doormat.
It's a false dichotomy, though. There's a whole wide world of options in between passivity and being the hand that cracks the whip.
Both ends of that particular spectrum are held down by "have tos" - and to some extent the Same "have tos". I have to do these things, have to get it right, or else.
One of the ideas I struggled with, when I was first trying to understand unschooling, was modelling. I thought if I couldn't be the perfect model, then I Had To teach - because otherwise how would the kids learn what was right? It was such a relief to realize that perfection wasn't what my kids needed from me, that modelling wasn't the core of unschooling, it was just one of the factors which would play a part in learning.
On a religious level, a martyr is a perfect sacrifice - martyrdom washes away the sins and sanctifies the soul... at least according to my half-remembered childhood catechism. My mom fought against being a perfect sacrifice to the point of being rather cold - strident in her emphasis that her coldness was out of love, but "better a bitch than a doormat". I was glad to discover I didn't have to be a perfect anything - not a perfect bitch or perfect sacrifice or even a perfect person. Without the pressure of perfection, it has been much easier for me to discover my own principles and live by them.
---Meredith
It's a false dichotomy, though. There's a whole wide world of options in between passivity and being the hand that cracks the whip.
Both ends of that particular spectrum are held down by "have tos" - and to some extent the Same "have tos". I have to do these things, have to get it right, or else.
One of the ideas I struggled with, when I was first trying to understand unschooling, was modelling. I thought if I couldn't be the perfect model, then I Had To teach - because otherwise how would the kids learn what was right? It was such a relief to realize that perfection wasn't what my kids needed from me, that modelling wasn't the core of unschooling, it was just one of the factors which would play a part in learning.
On a religious level, a martyr is a perfect sacrifice - martyrdom washes away the sins and sanctifies the soul... at least according to my half-remembered childhood catechism. My mom fought against being a perfect sacrifice to the point of being rather cold - strident in her emphasis that her coldness was out of love, but "better a bitch than a doormat". I was glad to discover I didn't have to be a perfect anything - not a perfect bitch or perfect sacrifice or even a perfect person. Without the pressure of perfection, it has been much easier for me to discover my own principles and live by them.
---Meredith
Evelyn Callioux
>The negative concept of martyr is very much a part of dysfunctional families, especially where there is drug or alcohal abuse. This was the first thing I thought of when I read the original post. I went to Al Anon for a few years while I was still with my ex, and it came as quite a shock to me to realize I was getting a lot of false 'self-worth' from this particular dynamic... 'putting up' with a difficult situation can elicit a lot of sympathy and praise from people around us, and if you don't feel like you are worth much that can be like a drug. Whether it's an alcoholic spouse or a large busy family or an unwell elderly parent it can be tempting to soak up the attention. However, in the process it can cause a lot of harm to a family, because the focus is basically selfish. It is something that takes a lot of work, a lot of self-awareness, to overcome. Maybe this type of martyrdom is triggered by a basic unhappiness with your life combined with the lack of power to change it?
> If her mom or dad had an alcohol or drug problem, it could be a pattern that shows up a lot; I used to live that way. If the child or young adult is PERFECT, then the parent will be redeemed. Of if the child can compensate for the parents' failings, then the other siblings will be saved.
There are people I think of as genuine martyrs, people who have endangered their lives for another person or for a principle, with no thought of benefit to themselves, but it seems to me it is very rare.
Sandra Dodd
-=- so I looked it up (thanks to
Sandra for suggesting this by example!).-=-
Joyce, in this thread?
I look things up all the time, though, and don't mind being remembered for it, but Joyce did the note-bringing this time.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra for suggesting this by example!).-=-
Joyce, in this thread?
I look things up all the time, though, and don't mind being remembered for it, but Joyce did the note-bringing this time.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Claire
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It was such a relief to realize that perfection wasn't what my kids needed from me, that modelling wasn't the core of unschooling, it was just one of the factors which would play a part in learning. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Meredith, would it be fair to say that modelling is key to unschooling, but modelling perfection is not?
Striving to be a better unschooling parent is different from striving for perfection, which is impossible. Modelling a principled life is different from taking some idealised notion of perfection and flogging oneself with it.
Claire
Joyce Fetteroll
On Dec 23, 2012, at 4:31 AM, Claire wrote:
LIving a principled life is a better idea for unschooling. Be kind to your kids, spouse and others. Be trustworthy to your kids, spouse and others. Be patient, thoughtful, engaged, polite, peaceful, positive, curious, helpful, attentive, creative, respectful ...
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Modelling a principled life is different from taking someModeling is demonstrating for someone else to see and learn from.
> idealised notion of perfection and flogging oneself with it.
LIving a principled life is a better idea for unschooling. Be kind to your kids, spouse and others. Be trustworthy to your kids, spouse and others. Be patient, thoughtful, engaged, polite, peaceful, positive, curious, helpful, attentive, creative, respectful ...
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Karen
>>>>> There is an aspect of "I am such a martyr" that is emotional jackoff (and manipulation), and I think THAT is the kind of martyr people object to other people being.<<<<<A lightbulb went off for me here!!! This is the version of martyr in my head. It is the person who says "Look how much I'm doing for you. You better be grateful." That's the way I grew up. I don't want to be that person.
>>>>> But giving to someone lovingly and generously is NOT the same thing as looking over one's shoulder to make sure others are seeing them give and give.<<<<<Absolutely. I just spent a few days with my mom. She is 86, and is in the hospital. She wasn't doing so well when I first arrived. As soon as she saw me in the doorway she cried. As we talked I could hear that she has a lot of regrets. I won't get into it, because it's too sad, but here's what I did see that was very positive for me. The more I gave to her - sincerely, lovingly, and from a good place - the more well she became. By the time I left, she was eating again. I brought her two breakfast burritos from McDonald's on the morning I was heading home. She had requested them the night before, and she ate them like they were the finest food she had ever tasted. She told all the hospital staff that I was bringing her these burritos. As I walked down the hall a nurse stopped me to make sure I had them with me.
Somewhat ironically, before I left, she took me by the arm and told me I do too much for my son. I simply said, "I do what I do because I want to, and it seems to be working out well enough." Then, I kissed her on the head, told her I love her, and am now back home to have a wonderful holiday with my husband and son.
Meredith
"Claire" <claire.horsley08@...> wrote:
People learn from other people - that's one of the ways learning happens. I've learned things by watching my friends, co-workers, my kids, heck I've learned from watching the way random other drivers handle a difficult curve on a particular section of road. You can call that modelling if you like.
But people also learn from research and their own endeavors, from bouncing one set of ideas off another set in their own minds, from trying new things, from jumping into the middle of something, making a mess, and problem-solving the way back out. Those things don't necessarily come from modelling, although the confidence to do them can.
---Meredith
>> Meredith, would it be fair to say that modelling is key to unschooling, but modelling perfection is not?************
People learn from other people - that's one of the ways learning happens. I've learned things by watching my friends, co-workers, my kids, heck I've learned from watching the way random other drivers handle a difficult curve on a particular section of road. You can call that modelling if you like.
But people also learn from research and their own endeavors, from bouncing one set of ideas off another set in their own minds, from trying new things, from jumping into the middle of something, making a mess, and problem-solving the way back out. Those things don't necessarily come from modelling, although the confidence to do them can.
---Meredith
Sandra Dodd
-=-
Children learn from what they see around them�both from good examples and bad. I never minded when Holly visited a home where the parents were kind of mean to the kids. It helped her see that there was a range of behavior and people made choices, and those choices had effects. She knew by the time she was five that grounding kids wasn't something she thought was sensible. She saw as she got older which kids became hardened and sneaky.
If a mother is a perfectionist and she deals with it lightly and with a smile the child (who might have the same genetic personality traits) will gain tools to use.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>> Meredith, would it be fair to say that modelling is key to unschooling, but modelling perfection is not?-=-No one thing is "key to unschooling."
Children learn from what they see around them�both from good examples and bad. I never minded when Holly visited a home where the parents were kind of mean to the kids. It helped her see that there was a range of behavior and people made choices, and those choices had effects. She knew by the time she was five that grounding kids wasn't something she thought was sensible. She saw as she got older which kids became hardened and sneaky.
If a mother is a perfectionist and she deals with it lightly and with a smile the child (who might have the same genetic personality traits) will gain tools to use.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-The negative concept of martyr is very much a part of dysfunctional families, especially where there is drug or alcohal abuse. This was the first thing I thought of when I read the original post. I went to Al Anon for a few years while I was still with my ex, and it came as quite a shock to me to realize I was getting a lot of false 'self-worth' from this particular dynamic...-=-
Maybe "martyr" is used when someone wants to dissuade someone from a course of action. Mabe it's the insult version of "giving" or "generous" or "attentive."
I looked but couldn't find a list that used to go around in the 70's and 80's. It was a list of personality traits and said things like
a man is strong-willed / a woman is pushy
a man is tenacious / a woman is a bitch
(I don't remember them for sure, but it was a list of six or eight pairs, I think.)
IF an unschooling mom is letting her child play video games while she makes him food, and if someone else says "You're being a martyr," it doesn't mean she's being a martyr. It means the other person wants to control her. It means the other person (who is probably also a parent) wants her to be a little less accommodating, so as not to wreck the curve and make other parents look bad.
That's what I think. It's an idea I'm going to carry around a while and see whether it holds up.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Maybe "martyr" is used when someone wants to dissuade someone from a course of action. Mabe it's the insult version of "giving" or "generous" or "attentive."
I looked but couldn't find a list that used to go around in the 70's and 80's. It was a list of personality traits and said things like
a man is strong-willed / a woman is pushy
a man is tenacious / a woman is a bitch
(I don't remember them for sure, but it was a list of six or eight pairs, I think.)
IF an unschooling mom is letting her child play video games while she makes him food, and if someone else says "You're being a martyr," it doesn't mean she's being a martyr. It means the other person wants to control her. It means the other person (who is probably also a parent) wants her to be a little less accommodating, so as not to wreck the curve and make other parents look bad.
That's what I think. It's an idea I'm going to carry around a while and see whether it holds up.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Meredith
Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
I think it's tied in to the kinds of assumptions my mother had - martyr as doormat. And the responses to it are to be more of a bitch: Don't do things for your kids they can do themselves, take some time for yourself, etc. The doormat-mom has a sneaky, smothering side to her in the popular mythology, making her children co-dependent by taking care of all their needs.
I'm thinking the supermom is kind of a new, improved martyr - the bitch-martyr who runs the family with a heavy hand, gets her kids into the best preschool, the best after-school activities, etc, checks their homework and screens their text messages. It's still "have to" parenting - have to do this for their own good - but it's more socially acceptible in some circles.
---Meredith
>> IF an unschooling mom is letting her child play video games while she makes him food, and if someone else says "You're being a martyr," it doesn't mean she's being a martyr. It means the other person wants to control her. It means the other person (who is probably also a parent) wants her to be a little less accommodating, so as not to wreck the curve and make other parents look bad.***************
I think it's tied in to the kinds of assumptions my mother had - martyr as doormat. And the responses to it are to be more of a bitch: Don't do things for your kids they can do themselves, take some time for yourself, etc. The doormat-mom has a sneaky, smothering side to her in the popular mythology, making her children co-dependent by taking care of all their needs.
I'm thinking the supermom is kind of a new, improved martyr - the bitch-martyr who runs the family with a heavy hand, gets her kids into the best preschool, the best after-school activities, etc, checks their homework and screens their text messages. It's still "have to" parenting - have to do this for their own good - but it's more socially acceptible in some circles.
---Meredith
Pam Sorooshian
On Sun, Dec 23, 2012 at 3:52 PM, Meredith <plaidpanties666@...> wrote:
think are societal expectations such as: work in a satisfying career, keep
a nice house all company-ready, feed their family delicious and nutritious
foods, be a loving and sexy wife, and on top of all that be an involved and
present parent for the kids. It is too much. It isn't reasonable. They're
stressed. And combine that with fear - the kinds of fears that go along
with having kids - fear that they'll get molested or hit by a drunk driver
or all those awful things that most parents probably try really hard not to
think about, plus fear that the kids will randomly turn out awful, mean,
rebellious, druggies, etc.
With all that stress and fear - they really feel crushed (like martyrs) who
just keep on trying, day after day, hour after hour, to do what they think
is necessary.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I'm thinking the supermom is kind of a new, improved martyr - theI think a lot of mothers ARE feeling extremely overwhelmed by what they
> bitch-martyr who runs the family with a heavy hand, gets her kids into the
> best preschool, the best after-school activities, etc, checks their
> homework and screens their text messages. It's still "have to" parenting -
> have to do this for their own good - but it's more socially acceptible in
> some circles.
>
think are societal expectations such as: work in a satisfying career, keep
a nice house all company-ready, feed their family delicious and nutritious
foods, be a loving and sexy wife, and on top of all that be an involved and
present parent for the kids. It is too much. It isn't reasonable. They're
stressed. And combine that with fear - the kinds of fears that go along
with having kids - fear that they'll get molested or hit by a drunk driver
or all those awful things that most parents probably try really hard not to
think about, plus fear that the kids will randomly turn out awful, mean,
rebellious, druggies, etc.
With all that stress and fear - they really feel crushed (like martyrs) who
just keep on trying, day after day, hour after hour, to do what they think
is necessary.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Dola Dasgupta
Martyrdom is a state of mind...the intention behind a thought or action of
the person thinking or acting actually determines martyrdom...
One can make oneself a martyr first and then operate form that premise...or
one continues with selfless service and others make him or her a
martyr...and this does not effect him or her.
Any act or thought that is self glorifying especially if it is to go along
with abuse of any kind is somewhere skewed is what I think..
However if the intention is to genuinely heal a situation or person and
also oneself then one is not bothered with looking good or looking
nice...and continues to heal and help and sometimes that process and the
actions of that person might look to others as harsh or violent or selfish
too...
I have often seen that women who stand up in their own families to heal
anger, abuse, violence..are looked upon as cruel or uncaring.
But if she continues to be silent and go along with violence and abuse even
when the repercussions are evident...she is termed a martyr..
So for women with low self worth and self esteem...it is strangely better
to be a martyr as that at least brings some recognition her way...even if
it is at the cost of a larger good...
The neediness for external love and appreciation are generally strong in
these women...there is lack of self love.
Dola
On Sun, Dec 23, 2012 at 8:32 AM, Evelyn Callioux
<evelyn.calliou@...>wrote:
http://homeschoolers.in
<http://thouartthycreator.wordpress.com/>
http://childrenmypartners.wordpress.com/
http://thouartthycreator.wordpress.com/
http://ourcreaivealtar.wordpress.com/
*"Be kind to yourself and others,*
*Come from love every moment you can,*
*Speak of love with others. Remind each other of your spiritual purpose,*
*Never give up hope,*
*Know that you are loved." - Deepak Chopra from Love Sutras...*
*
*
*'Laughter we share generates more laughter, and the love we create
together spreads by leaps and bounds.' *
*
*
*Much love and warmth*
* Dola Dasgupta*
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
the person thinking or acting actually determines martyrdom...
One can make oneself a martyr first and then operate form that premise...or
one continues with selfless service and others make him or her a
martyr...and this does not effect him or her.
Any act or thought that is self glorifying especially if it is to go along
with abuse of any kind is somewhere skewed is what I think..
However if the intention is to genuinely heal a situation or person and
also oneself then one is not bothered with looking good or looking
nice...and continues to heal and help and sometimes that process and the
actions of that person might look to others as harsh or violent or selfish
too...
I have often seen that women who stand up in their own families to heal
anger, abuse, violence..are looked upon as cruel or uncaring.
But if she continues to be silent and go along with violence and abuse even
when the repercussions are evident...she is termed a martyr..
So for women with low self worth and self esteem...it is strangely better
to be a martyr as that at least brings some recognition her way...even if
it is at the cost of a larger good...
The neediness for external love and appreciation are generally strong in
these women...there is lack of self love.
Dola
On Sun, Dec 23, 2012 at 8:32 AM, Evelyn Callioux
<evelyn.calliou@...>wrote:
> **--
>
>
>
>
> >
> > If her mom or dad had an alcohol or drug problem, it could be a pattern
> that shows up a lot; I used to live that way. If the child or young adult
> is PERFECT, then the parent will be redeemed. Of if the child can
> compensate for the parents' failings, then the other siblings will be
> saved.
>
> The negative concept of martyr is very much a part of dysfunctional
> families, especially where there is drug or alcohal abuse. This was the
> first thing I thought of when I read the original post. I went to Al Anon
> for a few years while I was still with my ex, and it came as quite a shock
> to me to realize I was getting a lot of false 'self-worth' from this
> particular dynamic... 'putting up' with a difficult situation can elicit a
> lot of sympathy and praise from people around us, and if you don't feel
> like you are worth much that can be like a drug. Whether it's an alcoholic
> spouse or a large busy family or an unwell elderly parent it can be
> tempting to soak up the attention. However, in the process it can cause a
> lot of harm to a family, because the focus is basically selfish. It is
> something that takes a lot of work, a lot of self-awareness, to overcome.
> Maybe this type of martyrdom is triggered by a basic unhappiness with your
> life combined with the lack of power to change it?
>
> There are people I think of as genuine martyrs, people who have endangered
> their lives for another person or for a principle, with no thought of
> benefit to themselves, but it seems to me it is very rare.
>
>
>
http://homeschoolers.in
<http://thouartthycreator.wordpress.com/>
http://childrenmypartners.wordpress.com/
http://thouartthycreator.wordpress.com/
http://ourcreaivealtar.wordpress.com/
*"Be kind to yourself and others,*
*Come from love every moment you can,*
*Speak of love with others. Remind each other of your spiritual purpose,*
*Never give up hope,*
*Know that you are loved." - Deepak Chopra from Love Sutras...*
*
*
*'Laughter we share generates more laughter, and the love we create
together spreads by leaps and bounds.' *
*
*
*Much love and warmth*
* Dola Dasgupta*
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Rippy and Graham Dusseldorp
Sandra wrote:
-=- And being a good parent is not martyrdom. -=-
I remember a mom calling me a martyr in a not very nice way. I was out with some friends having fun, but I wanted to leave early. People wanted me to stay. I explained that I wanted to get back before baby Gianluca woke up from his nap. I was excited to go home and see his little sleepy face and wanted to be there when he woke up. I loved that every time he woke up, I was always there. One of the women said something like, 'Oh - you're such a martyr' with an unkind edge. She didn't understand why I would rush back home and leave the fun, when Graham was home and perfectly capable of taking care of our baby. My choice made her uncomfortable and unhappy.
-=- So with parenting, if we will stoop and aim for average or below average, we will be doing a kindness to those who don't even aspire to do their best ... -=-
I think this is encouraged in some circles. I remember when I was a new mom there was often a ritual of 'let's go around the circle and see who has the most difficult baby' when moms got together. The only acceptable alternative to this was if someone sacrificed their husband instead of their baby for the ritual. There was a visceral appetite for negative stories and an expectation for everyone to share.
I got a lot more selective about the company I kept by the time Gianluca was a toddler. I am especially attracted to parents that make better choices than me. Parents that are compassionate and kind in situations where I might struggle. Parents that raise my average. I *love* being in their company and learning from their shining examples.
Earlier this year we went on holiday with a couple of families and one of the toddlers was ill for the majority of the holiday. His mom was super sweet and attentive the entire five days of the holiday, with minimal sleep. She was patient, relaxed and nice to everyone. I'm not sure I could have been that lovely. At one point during the holiday I got irritated with Gianluca because he was having a difficult time sharing a game. It was only a couple of minutes, but it was such a sharp contrast with the way my friend was with her child while he was struggling. I left the holiday a better parent.
I think some people feel less than in the company of parents that may have a better set of tools than they currently possess. For me, my children's childhood is too short not to take advantage of every single good example that comes my way.
Rippy
Merry Christmas Always Learning! Thank you for helping me raise my average every time I visit.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-=- And being a good parent is not martyrdom. -=-
I remember a mom calling me a martyr in a not very nice way. I was out with some friends having fun, but I wanted to leave early. People wanted me to stay. I explained that I wanted to get back before baby Gianluca woke up from his nap. I was excited to go home and see his little sleepy face and wanted to be there when he woke up. I loved that every time he woke up, I was always there. One of the women said something like, 'Oh - you're such a martyr' with an unkind edge. She didn't understand why I would rush back home and leave the fun, when Graham was home and perfectly capable of taking care of our baby. My choice made her uncomfortable and unhappy.
-=- So with parenting, if we will stoop and aim for average or below average, we will be doing a kindness to those who don't even aspire to do their best ... -=-
I think this is encouraged in some circles. I remember when I was a new mom there was often a ritual of 'let's go around the circle and see who has the most difficult baby' when moms got together. The only acceptable alternative to this was if someone sacrificed their husband instead of their baby for the ritual. There was a visceral appetite for negative stories and an expectation for everyone to share.
I got a lot more selective about the company I kept by the time Gianluca was a toddler. I am especially attracted to parents that make better choices than me. Parents that are compassionate and kind in situations where I might struggle. Parents that raise my average. I *love* being in their company and learning from their shining examples.
Earlier this year we went on holiday with a couple of families and one of the toddlers was ill for the majority of the holiday. His mom was super sweet and attentive the entire five days of the holiday, with minimal sleep. She was patient, relaxed and nice to everyone. I'm not sure I could have been that lovely. At one point during the holiday I got irritated with Gianluca because he was having a difficult time sharing a game. It was only a couple of minutes, but it was such a sharp contrast with the way my friend was with her child while he was struggling. I left the holiday a better parent.
I think some people feel less than in the company of parents that may have a better set of tools than they currently possess. For me, my children's childhood is too short not to take advantage of every single good example that comes my way.
Rippy
Merry Christmas Always Learning! Thank you for helping me raise my average every time I visit.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=--=- So with parenting, if we will stoop and aim for average or below average, we will be doing a kindness to those who don't even aspire to do their best ... -=-
-=-I think this is encouraged in some circles.-=-
Even without people realizing it happens, it happens.
When someone wants to "be supportive" by saying to absolute unseen and total strangers "You're an awesome mom and you're doing the best you can and your children are lucky," I bristle. MANY parents are NOT (not even nearly) doing the best they can. They're not even trying. They are taking comfort from the misery-loves-company people around them who piss and moan and spiral down into a "woe us me," fest.
Don't do it, people. Even if it didn't harm your family directly (which it does), it's not good for *you*! Positive or negative. Warmer or colder. Every moment.
Warm wishes for happy holidays,
and a reminder that you can make or break a moment
and sometimes the greatest gift is a smile or tender touch
(and maybe some pancakes or tea)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-=-I think this is encouraged in some circles.-=-
Even without people realizing it happens, it happens.
When someone wants to "be supportive" by saying to absolute unseen and total strangers "You're an awesome mom and you're doing the best you can and your children are lucky," I bristle. MANY parents are NOT (not even nearly) doing the best they can. They're not even trying. They are taking comfort from the misery-loves-company people around them who piss and moan and spiral down into a "woe us me," fest.
Don't do it, people. Even if it didn't harm your family directly (which it does), it's not good for *you*! Positive or negative. Warmer or colder. Every moment.
Warm wishes for happy holidays,
and a reminder that you can make or break a moment
and sometimes the greatest gift is a smile or tender touch
(and maybe some pancakes or tea)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Meredith
Dola Dasgupta wrote:
positive side of the "bitch" in my mom's bitch/doormat paradigm - and
that was the kind of understanding I grew up with, that positive slant
on what's otherwise an epithet.
when they encounter a mom who is very enthusiastic about being with her
children. I know when I was getting involved with George and Ray a
couple of my female friends took me aside and told me they were worried
that I was being exploited. They didn't want me to get hurt, to turn
into... someone like my grandmother.
---Meredith
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>> I have often seen that women who stand up in their own families toheal
> anger, abuse, violence..are looked upon as cruel or uncaring.Yes, standing up against injustice - in the family or otherwise - is the
positive side of the "bitch" in my mom's bitch/doormat paradigm - and
that was the kind of understanding I grew up with, that positive slant
on what's otherwise an epithet.
> But if she continues to be silent and go along with violence and abuseeven
> when the repercussions are evident...she is termed a martyr..I think that's what a lot of modern women see - or imagine they see -
when they encounter a mom who is very enthusiastic about being with her
children. I know when I was getting involved with George and Ray a
couple of my female friends took me aside and told me they were worried
that I was being exploited. They didn't want me to get hurt, to turn
into... someone like my grandmother.
---Meredith
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]