advice on teen/parent relationships
K Pennell
Hello all,
We are unschooling my youngest, age 10. Our older son homeschools, but by his own choice, gets a "list" and checks things off. He says this loose way we do it with our younger son just doesn't work for him; he doesn't like it. He attended public school until 8th grade. He also attends public school for band and a class at the tech center, so his friends are all in school, as is his girlfriend (of two years). Anyway, he isn't really unschooled but this question pertains to him. I'd like to help this situation with unschooling philosophies in mind.
Our older son seems very angry toward my husband (his father). DS is 17, and this has been going on for a year or two. In the past when I have broached the subject, I get a "he never cleans the counter but he always tells me to" or something. Today I called him on that, and said "he did use to complain about that, but when is the last time Dad did that?" He couldn't recall, because it truly hasn't happened lately (i.e in a year or more).
He said "I don't really like him. I feel irritated by him all the time, and I have no idea why."
So my question is this: (and my husband is aware and glad I'm writing, as he is very sad about this) how can he help improve the relationship with his son? Especially when there are times DS is borderline rude. There was a book someone had suggested a while ago about talking to teens. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
We are unschooling my youngest, age 10. Our older son homeschools, but by his own choice, gets a "list" and checks things off. He says this loose way we do it with our younger son just doesn't work for him; he doesn't like it. He attended public school until 8th grade. He also attends public school for band and a class at the tech center, so his friends are all in school, as is his girlfriend (of two years). Anyway, he isn't really unschooled but this question pertains to him. I'd like to help this situation with unschooling philosophies in mind.
Our older son seems very angry toward my husband (his father). DS is 17, and this has been going on for a year or two. In the past when I have broached the subject, I get a "he never cleans the counter but he always tells me to" or something. Today I called him on that, and said "he did use to complain about that, but when is the last time Dad did that?" He couldn't recall, because it truly hasn't happened lately (i.e in a year or more).
He said "I don't really like him. I feel irritated by him all the time, and I have no idea why."
So my question is this: (and my husband is aware and glad I'm writing, as he is very sad about this) how can he help improve the relationship with his son? Especially when there are times DS is borderline rude. There was a book someone had suggested a while ago about talking to teens. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Meredith
K Pennell <mrsringsabre@...> wrote:
Two things come to mind - one is that he's surrounded by school kids who all complain about their parents. He Expects to dislike his.
But the other is that the vast majority of adults treat teenagers with a special kind of disdain which is justly infuriating to them and it's entirely possible dad has picked up some bad habits from other parents, co-workers, tv, etc. This is something I've seen a lot with Ray and his bio mom, who often falls into the habit of treating her son like "a teenager" even now - and every time she thinks she's being sweet and reasonable and helpful even when she's condescending and downright disrespectful. Why shouldn't she? She's acting like a normal mom of a teenager.
---Meredith
>> He said "I don't really like him. I feel irritated by him all the time, and I have no idea why."**************
Two things come to mind - one is that he's surrounded by school kids who all complain about their parents. He Expects to dislike his.
But the other is that the vast majority of adults treat teenagers with a special kind of disdain which is justly infuriating to them and it's entirely possible dad has picked up some bad habits from other parents, co-workers, tv, etc. This is something I've seen a lot with Ray and his bio mom, who often falls into the habit of treating her son like "a teenager" even now - and every time she thinks she's being sweet and reasonable and helpful even when she's condescending and downright disrespectful. Why shouldn't she? She's acting like a normal mom of a teenager.
>how can he help improve the relationship with his son?Watch your own behavior very, very carefully and see if you're treating your son like "a teenager" or like a person. Start there, assuming you've picked up that kind of behavior from Your peers, and work on mending your own attitude.
---Meredith
Heather
K Pennell wrote:
than what they expected me to say, once I had changed.
Parent Teen Breakthrough, the Relationship Approach, is a book that has
been reccomended here before - it was very helpful to me.
Heather
>It took my kids a long time to hear what I was actually saying, rather
>
>
> Our older son seems very angry toward my husband (his father). DS is
> 17, and this has been going on for a year or two. In the past when I
> have broached the subject, I get a "he never cleans the counter but he
> always tells me to" or something. Today I called him on that, and said
> "he did use to complain about that, but when is the last time Dad did
> that?" He couldn't recall, because it truly hasn't happened lately
> (i.e in a year or more).
>
>
>
than what they expected me to say, once I had changed.
Parent Teen Breakthrough, the Relationship Approach, is a book that has
been reccomended here before - it was very helpful to me.
Heather
Pam Sorooshian
On Fri, Dec 7, 2012 at 5:27 AM, Meredith <plaidpanties666@...> wrote:
biological - he's become an adult male and living under the thumb of
another adult male it might be built into him to begin to feel resistance.
Think about herd animals and how the young males always challenge the older
ones. It might be that if your son understands that there are reasons for
having these feelings that at least partly might have nothing to do with
anything his dad is doing, maybe that'll help him handle those feelings a
little better.
I have observed many times that boys-becoming-men really seem to need some
challenge in their lives and when they aren't getting it in a way that
works for them, they find challenge/create some strife and difficulty. Some
get it intellectually, maybe, by working on understanding challenging
ideas, but I think that is less common than the need for real true physical
challenge and adventure. Lots of girls want this, too, by the way, but I
think some of the underlying reasons are different for boys.
Boys of 16, 17, 18 or so really often feel stuck in a situation that nobody
admits and they don't even know what it is. They are biologically men - in
other times and places they would have become full-fledged members of the
adult community - hunting, fighting, having children of their own, etc.
Here, they are kept as mama's boys (and I mean to use an inflaming term to
emphasize how it might feel to them, even if unstated). They feel out of
place, but they don't know what to do about it because we don't live in a
society where they can grab their gun and go out hunting all alone. There
is little physical challenge that is real. There is little challenge at
all.
If your husband can find a way to help support your son in having his own
grand adventure, that might help turn his father into a support/mentor in
his eyes, rather than a hindrance. No telling what a grand adventure might
look like for him - maybe something you'd never imagine, so don't start
dreaming it up FOR him.
I'd say, in fact, let it be entirely between son and father because that
could really help build their relationship up. It could be a flat out gift
and he'd offer money, "I have $1,000 I'd like to give to you to celebrate
that you're becoming a man. The only strings attached are that I want you
to decide to use it for a big adventure. I'll help in any way I can."
Maybe not $1000, maybe not said in those words at all, maybe something
completely different like helping him do something he's already said before
he wanted to do and you have dragged your feet. But I really feel it needs
to be a challenge - something a little risky - for a lot of reasons but one
is so that his dad can show his confidence in him.
I think this is one reason there is so much traveling done by unschooled
teens - that's a modern-day challenge that is physical (getting from here
to there) and social and involves a very heady sense of independence and
competence.
The book you're looking for might be either "How to Talk so Kids will
Listen and Listen so Kids will Talk" or "The Parent-Teen Breakthrough: A
Relationship Approach."
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> K Pennell <mrsringsabre@...> wrote:Let your son know that some degree of the feelings he has is probably
> >> He said "I don't really like him. I feel irritated by him all the time,
> and I have no idea why."
> **************
>
biological - he's become an adult male and living under the thumb of
another adult male it might be built into him to begin to feel resistance.
Think about herd animals and how the young males always challenge the older
ones. It might be that if your son understands that there are reasons for
having these feelings that at least partly might have nothing to do with
anything his dad is doing, maybe that'll help him handle those feelings a
little better.
I have observed many times that boys-becoming-men really seem to need some
challenge in their lives and when they aren't getting it in a way that
works for them, they find challenge/create some strife and difficulty. Some
get it intellectually, maybe, by working on understanding challenging
ideas, but I think that is less common than the need for real true physical
challenge and adventure. Lots of girls want this, too, by the way, but I
think some of the underlying reasons are different for boys.
Boys of 16, 17, 18 or so really often feel stuck in a situation that nobody
admits and they don't even know what it is. They are biologically men - in
other times and places they would have become full-fledged members of the
adult community - hunting, fighting, having children of their own, etc.
Here, they are kept as mama's boys (and I mean to use an inflaming term to
emphasize how it might feel to them, even if unstated). They feel out of
place, but they don't know what to do about it because we don't live in a
society where they can grab their gun and go out hunting all alone. There
is little physical challenge that is real. There is little challenge at
all.
If your husband can find a way to help support your son in having his own
grand adventure, that might help turn his father into a support/mentor in
his eyes, rather than a hindrance. No telling what a grand adventure might
look like for him - maybe something you'd never imagine, so don't start
dreaming it up FOR him.
I'd say, in fact, let it be entirely between son and father because that
could really help build their relationship up. It could be a flat out gift
and he'd offer money, "I have $1,000 I'd like to give to you to celebrate
that you're becoming a man. The only strings attached are that I want you
to decide to use it for a big adventure. I'll help in any way I can."
Maybe not $1000, maybe not said in those words at all, maybe something
completely different like helping him do something he's already said before
he wanted to do and you have dragged your feet. But I really feel it needs
to be a challenge - something a little risky - for a lot of reasons but one
is so that his dad can show his confidence in him.
I think this is one reason there is so much traveling done by unschooled
teens - that's a modern-day challenge that is physical (getting from here
to there) and social and involves a very heady sense of independence and
competence.
The book you're looking for might be either "How to Talk so Kids will
Listen and Listen so Kids will Talk" or "The Parent-Teen Breakthrough: A
Relationship Approach."
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Vicki Dennis
I agree with lots of what Pam says, especially about it being biological.
I was mulling in my head how to present that idea.
I do believe that part of the biological component is that your son is
irritated by his father more than by you. If he were a daughter it would
be the opposite. Though it might seem too "traditional" I believe that
gender differences do affect the parent child relationship transitions.
Whether son or daughter I do agree that at 17 a parent does not relate to
offspring of either gender in the same way as to a child of 6.
In my opinion it would not be at all harmful to explain to an adolescent
male about raging testosterone in himself and in his environment. Reassure
him (and his father) that "this, too, shall pass". It's biology, not
personal.
vicki
I was mulling in my head how to present that idea.
I do believe that part of the biological component is that your son is
irritated by his father more than by you. If he were a daughter it would
be the opposite. Though it might seem too "traditional" I believe that
gender differences do affect the parent child relationship transitions.
Whether son or daughter I do agree that at 17 a parent does not relate to
offspring of either gender in the same way as to a child of 6.
In my opinion it would not be at all harmful to explain to an adolescent
male about raging testosterone in himself and in his environment. Reassure
him (and his father) that "this, too, shall pass". It's biology, not
personal.
vicki
On Fri, Dec 7, 2012 at 2:02 PM, Pam Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
> **
>
>
> On Fri, Dec 7, 2012 at 5:27 AM, Meredith <plaidpanties666@...>
> wrote:
>
> > K Pennell <mrsringsabre@...> wrote:
> > >> He said "I don't really like him. I feel irritated by him all the
> time,
> > and I have no idea why."
> > **************
> >
>
> Let your son know that some degree of the feelings he has is probably
> biological - he's become an adult male and living under the thumb of
> another adult male it might be built into him to begin to feel resistance.
> Think about herd animals and how the young males always challenge the older
> ones. It might be that if your son understands that there are reasons for
> having these feelings that at least partly might have nothing to do with
> anything his dad is doing, maybe that'll help him handle those feelings a
> little better.
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Anyway, he isn't really unschooled but this question pertains to him. I'd like to help this situation with unschooling philosophies in mind.-=-
A parent who's not fully immersed in unschooling (your husband) can't treat a schoolkid (your son, even though he's not fully in school, he was never fully out) in an unschooling way and expect to see unschooling results. I'm sorry. I know there are places that will promise people all manner of magic just for using the term "unschooling," but they're wrong. It's a long process involving patience and change.
Pam Sorooshian wrote this:
"As we get older and our kids grow up, we eventually come to realize that all the big things in our lives are really the direct result of how we've handled all the little things." —Pam Sorooshian, June 4, 2007
http://sandradodd.com/pamsorooshian
It's true of all kind of parenting.
-=-Our older son seems very angry toward my husband (his father). DS is 17, and this has been going on for a year or two. In the past when I have broached the subject, I get a "he never cleans the counter but he always tells me to" or something. Today I called him on that, and said "he did use to complain about that, but when is the last time Dad did that?" He couldn't recall, because it truly hasn't happened lately (i.e in a year or more).
-=-
1) With very little efforc, someone can break something that took a long time to build.
2) You asked him about something particular (the counter) rather than seeing the point (hypocrisy).
and
3) Requiring chores or telling kids to clean up is not going to lead to a partnership. How does your husband feel about the idea that if he doesn't like crumbs on the counter he should clean it? My husband is The WORST about leaving a mess like that, and making a sandwich without using a plate. I could rag on him about it, but it's easier to put the rag on the counter, and breathe, and be glad he's alive to leave crumbs (and to go to work, and to split wood, and to help me with things), and that he's leaving crumbs on our counter and not some other woman's.
-=-He said "I don't really like him. I feel irritated by him all the time, and I have no idea why."-=-
Part of it is surely an instinctive leave-the-nest reaction. It doesn't mean you should boot him out, but you should consider it healthy that a young man old enough to procreate is starting to feel too big for the den.
-=-how can he help improve the relationship with his son? Especially when there are times DS is borderline rude.-=-
Holly and I have had some rough exchanges lately. She's not even borderline sometimes, just rude. I can make it worse, or I can dodge it and say something she can think about later, when I'm calm. Usually, I make it worse. But even "worse" comes in degrees. I could take "worse" to the wall and need to worry about whether she would kill herself or run away. That's not a good idea. We get along much more than we irritate each other. She will move out someday and I'll miss her.
Things are rarely perfect. Doing little things to make them better is sometimes the best thing that can happy, in some moments or seasons or moods or situations.
Parent/Teen Breakthrough is probably the book that was mentioned.
http://www.chestnuthillinstitute.com/books/ptb/index.php
Sandra
A parent who's not fully immersed in unschooling (your husband) can't treat a schoolkid (your son, even though he's not fully in school, he was never fully out) in an unschooling way and expect to see unschooling results. I'm sorry. I know there are places that will promise people all manner of magic just for using the term "unschooling," but they're wrong. It's a long process involving patience and change.
Pam Sorooshian wrote this:
"As we get older and our kids grow up, we eventually come to realize that all the big things in our lives are really the direct result of how we've handled all the little things." —Pam Sorooshian, June 4, 2007
http://sandradodd.com/pamsorooshian
It's true of all kind of parenting.
-=-Our older son seems very angry toward my husband (his father). DS is 17, and this has been going on for a year or two. In the past when I have broached the subject, I get a "he never cleans the counter but he always tells me to" or something. Today I called him on that, and said "he did use to complain about that, but when is the last time Dad did that?" He couldn't recall, because it truly hasn't happened lately (i.e in a year or more).
-=-
1) With very little efforc, someone can break something that took a long time to build.
2) You asked him about something particular (the counter) rather than seeing the point (hypocrisy).
and
3) Requiring chores or telling kids to clean up is not going to lead to a partnership. How does your husband feel about the idea that if he doesn't like crumbs on the counter he should clean it? My husband is The WORST about leaving a mess like that, and making a sandwich without using a plate. I could rag on him about it, but it's easier to put the rag on the counter, and breathe, and be glad he's alive to leave crumbs (and to go to work, and to split wood, and to help me with things), and that he's leaving crumbs on our counter and not some other woman's.
-=-He said "I don't really like him. I feel irritated by him all the time, and I have no idea why."-=-
Part of it is surely an instinctive leave-the-nest reaction. It doesn't mean you should boot him out, but you should consider it healthy that a young man old enough to procreate is starting to feel too big for the den.
-=-how can he help improve the relationship with his son? Especially when there are times DS is borderline rude.-=-
Holly and I have had some rough exchanges lately. She's not even borderline sometimes, just rude. I can make it worse, or I can dodge it and say something she can think about later, when I'm calm. Usually, I make it worse. But even "worse" comes in degrees. I could take "worse" to the wall and need to worry about whether she would kill herself or run away. That's not a good idea. We get along much more than we irritate each other. She will move out someday and I'll miss her.
Things are rarely perfect. Doing little things to make them better is sometimes the best thing that can happy, in some moments or seasons or moods or situations.
Parent/Teen Breakthrough is probably the book that was mentioned.
http://www.chestnuthillinstitute.com/books/ptb/index.php
Sandra
Joyce Fetteroll
On Dec 7, 2012, at 7:58 AM, K Pennell wrote:
http://tinyurl.com/3mnbf52
When I was a teen it was my mom who irritated me. It wasn't anything in particular that she did other than doing what most every other parent was doing --basically things that work so poorly with teens ;-)
I think it comes down to lack of connection. She (and other parents around her) had in mind what kids were supposed to do -- go to school, get good grades -- but had no understanding of what I wanted or what I was going through in order to do that. Nor did I have the ability to articulate what was wrong since it was stuff everyone had to do and if I didn't like it, it was because of a lack in me. Plus I was full of hormones that drove the desire for independent thought and choices but no way to do that.
I'm about to go off on a tangent, but it will come back, I promise! :-) I never thought of this before but in a way conventional parenting is like being a shepherd. The shepherd's job is to keep the sheep from straying away from what sheep are supposed to do: stay together and eat, sleep and make new sheep.
From the view of conventional parenting, the role of parents is to keep kids from straying from what kids are supposed to do -- schoolwork, chores, being "nice". To do that -- the conventional view says -- you just prod kids back into right behavior when they stray.
The problem with that view is that eating, etc. is what sheep want to do so when they wander off, it's not hard to prod them back. And if a sheep repeatedly refuses, a shepherd can cull the animals that don't want to do what shepherds need them to do.
But going to school, doing chores, treating their own needs as unimportant is not what kids want to do. And shepherding kids through conventional life is like making sheep dance everyday. It's going to make for some might unhappy sheep who will want to escape so they can do what sheep want to do.
What kids want -- what humans want -- is to feel connected with others as they "follow their bliss". Which is a really good way of phrasing it (with a caveat). It's easy to picture sheep happily munching grass when they're hungry, sleeping when they're sleepy, following hormones when those kick in. (Since we humans are social creatures, what we want to do *also* includes connecting with others and wanting them to be happy.)
But the phrase was unfortunately was used to mean "Do whatever feels good regardless of the consequences to yourself or anyone else." When you've grown up only getting to do what you want on someone else's schedule -- and never getting to do enough of it -- that's pretty much the reaction you'd expect to "Follow your bliss." :-/
What makes it seem like kids -- and other people -- don't care about others' happiness is when others prevent them from getting what they want. If kids have to fight for what they want, they aren't going to care about other people's happiness -- especially those who are being roadblocks rather than helping. When kids feel supported in meeting their needs, they have the energy and desire to care about others' happiness.
Kids (and other humans too!) want those they love to:
Listen to them, hear them, understand their needs and concerns and take those seriously. (That is no "Yes, I understand, BUT ...)
Be happy :-)
Understand who they are.
Like who they are.
Want them to be the best *them* they can be.
Not want them "to be the best [by the loved one's standards] them they can be".
Be happy that they get to do what they enjoy.
Show an interest in what they're doing.
Support them as much as the *kids* want in what they're doing.
Open doors of opportunity to find and pursue interests that spark them.
Conventional parenting and school puts a low priority on much of the above. Conventional parenting is all about making those sheep dance because the shepherd believes dancing -- not current happiness -- is the best thing for the sheep's future happiness.
Up until now your son has been a sheep made to dance. He's been unheard that dancing isn't what he loves. And yet, now that he has the freedom to not dance, he doesn't *feel* free: years of internal voices planted by you and your husband override his own voice about what feels right for him. Those voices don't evaporate as soon as Mom and Dad change their minds.
*And* he's full of hormones that are driving him to desire to "do it himself", to try things, to see what happens, to try something else without others watching to see if he's doing it "right". He wants to feel free to *find* what's right for him, not be told.
What I needed from my mom was the above connecting things not a shepherdess. ;-) I needed it all along to build a relationship so I could comfortably bring issues up without her seeing it as a request to be fixed and set back on the right track.
It's obviously hard to create that relationship once kids become teens. (And why parents are urged to do what creates connections when they're young!) But the Parent/Teen Breakthrough book can be a big help for those parents who are starting late.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> There was a book someone had suggested a while ago about talking to teens.The book is Parent/Teen Breakthrough: the relationship approach by Mira Kirchenbaum.
http://tinyurl.com/3mnbf52
When I was a teen it was my mom who irritated me. It wasn't anything in particular that she did other than doing what most every other parent was doing --basically things that work so poorly with teens ;-)
I think it comes down to lack of connection. She (and other parents around her) had in mind what kids were supposed to do -- go to school, get good grades -- but had no understanding of what I wanted or what I was going through in order to do that. Nor did I have the ability to articulate what was wrong since it was stuff everyone had to do and if I didn't like it, it was because of a lack in me. Plus I was full of hormones that drove the desire for independent thought and choices but no way to do that.
I'm about to go off on a tangent, but it will come back, I promise! :-) I never thought of this before but in a way conventional parenting is like being a shepherd. The shepherd's job is to keep the sheep from straying away from what sheep are supposed to do: stay together and eat, sleep and make new sheep.
From the view of conventional parenting, the role of parents is to keep kids from straying from what kids are supposed to do -- schoolwork, chores, being "nice". To do that -- the conventional view says -- you just prod kids back into right behavior when they stray.
The problem with that view is that eating, etc. is what sheep want to do so when they wander off, it's not hard to prod them back. And if a sheep repeatedly refuses, a shepherd can cull the animals that don't want to do what shepherds need them to do.
But going to school, doing chores, treating their own needs as unimportant is not what kids want to do. And shepherding kids through conventional life is like making sheep dance everyday. It's going to make for some might unhappy sheep who will want to escape so they can do what sheep want to do.
What kids want -- what humans want -- is to feel connected with others as they "follow their bliss". Which is a really good way of phrasing it (with a caveat). It's easy to picture sheep happily munching grass when they're hungry, sleeping when they're sleepy, following hormones when those kick in. (Since we humans are social creatures, what we want to do *also* includes connecting with others and wanting them to be happy.)
But the phrase was unfortunately was used to mean "Do whatever feels good regardless of the consequences to yourself or anyone else." When you've grown up only getting to do what you want on someone else's schedule -- and never getting to do enough of it -- that's pretty much the reaction you'd expect to "Follow your bliss." :-/
What makes it seem like kids -- and other people -- don't care about others' happiness is when others prevent them from getting what they want. If kids have to fight for what they want, they aren't going to care about other people's happiness -- especially those who are being roadblocks rather than helping. When kids feel supported in meeting their needs, they have the energy and desire to care about others' happiness.
Kids (and other humans too!) want those they love to:
Listen to them, hear them, understand their needs and concerns and take those seriously. (That is no "Yes, I understand, BUT ...)
Be happy :-)
Understand who they are.
Like who they are.
Want them to be the best *them* they can be.
Not want them "to be the best [by the loved one's standards] them they can be".
Be happy that they get to do what they enjoy.
Show an interest in what they're doing.
Support them as much as the *kids* want in what they're doing.
Open doors of opportunity to find and pursue interests that spark them.
Conventional parenting and school puts a low priority on much of the above. Conventional parenting is all about making those sheep dance because the shepherd believes dancing -- not current happiness -- is the best thing for the sheep's future happiness.
Up until now your son has been a sheep made to dance. He's been unheard that dancing isn't what he loves. And yet, now that he has the freedom to not dance, he doesn't *feel* free: years of internal voices planted by you and your husband override his own voice about what feels right for him. Those voices don't evaporate as soon as Mom and Dad change their minds.
*And* he's full of hormones that are driving him to desire to "do it himself", to try things, to see what happens, to try something else without others watching to see if he's doing it "right". He wants to feel free to *find* what's right for him, not be told.
What I needed from my mom was the above connecting things not a shepherdess. ;-) I needed it all along to build a relationship so I could comfortably bring issues up without her seeing it as a request to be fixed and set back on the right track.
It's obviously hard to create that relationship once kids become teens. (And why parents are urged to do what creates connections when they're young!) But the Parent/Teen Breakthrough book can be a big help for those parents who are starting late.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
K Pennell
Thanks all, for the advice. My husband and I have tried to be very mindful about tone and not inadvertently coming across as patronizing or rude. This weekend was actually sort of a success. He stayed home for tree decorating, and even chatted with his dad.
I liked your advice about the adventure, Pam. We'll have to give it some thought and be really listening to him to find out what might constitute his adventure/challenge.
To the person who suggested he is influenced by peers in school, I do think that is part of it. Maybe even in two ways: first, many of them are at odds with their parents and he picks up on that. His gf gets along nicely with her Dad but hated her late mother. But also, his gf and her dad don't really seem to approve of homeschooling and that probably makes him anxious. She used to quiz him, but she doesn't now (at least not in front of me).
The Parent-Teen Breakthrough is the book I was thinking of, everyone. Thanks, I'm going to order it.
________________________________
From: Pam Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, December 7, 2012 3:02 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: advice on teen/parent relationships
I liked your advice about the adventure, Pam. We'll have to give it some thought and be really listening to him to find out what might constitute his adventure/challenge.
To the person who suggested he is influenced by peers in school, I do think that is part of it. Maybe even in two ways: first, many of them are at odds with their parents and he picks up on that. His gf gets along nicely with her Dad but hated her late mother. But also, his gf and her dad don't really seem to approve of homeschooling and that probably makes him anxious. She used to quiz him, but she doesn't now (at least not in front of me).
The Parent-Teen Breakthrough is the book I was thinking of, everyone. Thanks, I'm going to order it.
________________________________
From: Pam Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, December 7, 2012 3:02 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: advice on teen/parent relationships
On Fri, Dec 7, 2012 at 5:27 AM, Meredith <plaidpanties666@...> wrote:
> K Pennell <mrsringsabre@...> wrote:
> >> He said "I don't really like him. I feel irritated by him all the time,
> and I have no idea why."
> **************
>
Let your son know that some degree of the feelings he has is probably
biological - he's become an adult male and living under the thumb of
another adult male it might be built into him to begin to feel resistance.
Think about herd animals and how the young males always challenge the older
ones. It might be that if your son understands that there are reasons for
having these feelings that at least partly might have nothing to do with
anything his dad is doing, maybe that'll help him handle those feelings a
little better.
I have observed many times that boys-becoming-men really seem to need some
challenge in their lives and when they aren't getting it in a way that
works for them, they find challenge/create some strife and difficulty. Some
get it intellectually, maybe, by working on understanding challenging
ideas, but I think that is less common than the need for real true physical
challenge and adventure. Lots of girls want this, too, by the way, but I
think some of the underlying reasons are different for boys.
Boys of 16, 17, 18 or so really often feel stuck in a situation that nobody
admits and they don't even know what it is. They are biologically men - in
other times and places they would have become full-fledged members of the
adult community - hunting, fighting, having children of their own, etc.
Here, they are kept as mama's boys (and I mean to use an inflaming term to
emphasize how it might feel to them, even if unstated). They feel out of
place, but they don't know what to do about it because we don't live in a
society where they can grab their gun and go out hunting all alone. There
is little physical challenge that is real. There is little challenge at
all.
If your husband can find a way to help support your son in having his own
grand adventure, that might help turn his father into a support/mentor in
his eyes, rather than a hindrance. No telling what a grand adventure might
look like for him - maybe something you'd never imagine, so don't start
dreaming it up FOR him.
I'd say, in fact, let it be entirely between son and father because that
could really help build their relationship up. It could be a flat out gift
and he'd offer money, "I have $1,000 I'd like to give to you to celebrate
that you're becoming a man. The only strings attached are that I want you
to decide to use it for a big adventure. I'll help in any way I can."
Maybe not $1000, maybe not said in those words at all, maybe something
completely different like helping him do something he's already said before
he wanted to do and you have dragged your feet. But I really feel it needs
to be a challenge - something a little risky - for a lot of reasons but one
is so that his dad can show his confidence in him.
I think this is one reason there is so much traveling done by unschooled
teens - that's a modern-day challenge that is physical (getting from here
to there) and social and involves a very heady sense of independence and
competence.
The book you're looking for might be either "How to Talk so Kids will
Listen and Listen so Kids will Talk" or "The Parent-Teen Breakthrough: A
Relationship Approach."
-pam
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