Support helpful/unhelpful
Victoria Otero
Hey there
One of my closest friends (who is attachment parenting and hopes to Unschool) and her partner are struggling at the moment to manage their feelings. The most recent example a couple of evenings ago at bedtime, she had been critical of something her partner had done/not done and her partner reacted by shouting, swearing, throwing and breaking stuff (her stuff), she also screamed and shouted. Last weekend I was over visiting her and we were baking with her twins (both under 2), she left the room went upstairs and I heard a desperate scream, the girls were half way up the stairs. I scooped them up, distracted and continued baking. My friend appeared back in the kitchen in tears. She is screaming in order to manage her feelings when things are particularly stressful, this is happening more frequently. She also feels like screaming/cursing directly at the girls when they are asserting themselves and she feels at a loss of how to manage. Last night I spoke to her and shared my concerns, encouraging her to seek help. She has found psychological therapies useful in the past (both her and her partner have reacted to stress in these ways before they had children). I was very clear with her, saying that this wasn't creating the peaceful environment she wanted, was likely to impact on attachment and that she needed to be proactive in making changes and asking for help so as to minimise the risk of social services involvement, something she would struggle to cope with. My friend and her partner both have a history of mental health difficulties, and have worked hard to improve their lives. We have a good friendship and she was able to hear my concerns as care, and take them seriously.
After our conversation I was reading a post and comments on a Facebook page aimed at parents who unschool/peacefully parent/attachment parent. The OP had 'lost it' with his kids, throwing stuff and shouting. There were lots of comments that normalised this, for example, 'we're only human' 'we all lose it sometimes' 'it's ok as long as you apologise' 'getting better is good enough' 'It can teach kids how to get angry and not hurt anyone' 'perfection isn't an option'. Reading this left me wondering whether my anxieties about my friend were over the top. My opinion is that these ways of being/reacting (screaming, shouting, throwing and breaking things) are not ok. People do make mistakes (obviously including myself) and we are always learning. It isn't useful to beat yourself up so that it prevents you from getting help or making changes. Normalising these behaviours though seems to be creating a culture among parents where anything goes, as long as you reflect on it, apologise and don't be hard on yourself. It seems that people empathise with the 'feeling guilty/bad' feelings a parent expresses while the impact on the children/family is sidelined. It maybe that I'm not given people enough credit, that it is not necessary to acknowledge the impact on the kids, it goes without saying and everyone is working on it?
What do others think about this?
All good wishes
Tori
One of my closest friends (who is attachment parenting and hopes to Unschool) and her partner are struggling at the moment to manage their feelings. The most recent example a couple of evenings ago at bedtime, she had been critical of something her partner had done/not done and her partner reacted by shouting, swearing, throwing and breaking stuff (her stuff), she also screamed and shouted. Last weekend I was over visiting her and we were baking with her twins (both under 2), she left the room went upstairs and I heard a desperate scream, the girls were half way up the stairs. I scooped them up, distracted and continued baking. My friend appeared back in the kitchen in tears. She is screaming in order to manage her feelings when things are particularly stressful, this is happening more frequently. She also feels like screaming/cursing directly at the girls when they are asserting themselves and she feels at a loss of how to manage. Last night I spoke to her and shared my concerns, encouraging her to seek help. She has found psychological therapies useful in the past (both her and her partner have reacted to stress in these ways before they had children). I was very clear with her, saying that this wasn't creating the peaceful environment she wanted, was likely to impact on attachment and that she needed to be proactive in making changes and asking for help so as to minimise the risk of social services involvement, something she would struggle to cope with. My friend and her partner both have a history of mental health difficulties, and have worked hard to improve their lives. We have a good friendship and she was able to hear my concerns as care, and take them seriously.
After our conversation I was reading a post and comments on a Facebook page aimed at parents who unschool/peacefully parent/attachment parent. The OP had 'lost it' with his kids, throwing stuff and shouting. There were lots of comments that normalised this, for example, 'we're only human' 'we all lose it sometimes' 'it's ok as long as you apologise' 'getting better is good enough' 'It can teach kids how to get angry and not hurt anyone' 'perfection isn't an option'. Reading this left me wondering whether my anxieties about my friend were over the top. My opinion is that these ways of being/reacting (screaming, shouting, throwing and breaking things) are not ok. People do make mistakes (obviously including myself) and we are always learning. It isn't useful to beat yourself up so that it prevents you from getting help or making changes. Normalising these behaviours though seems to be creating a culture among parents where anything goes, as long as you reflect on it, apologise and don't be hard on yourself. It seems that people empathise with the 'feeling guilty/bad' feelings a parent expresses while the impact on the children/family is sidelined. It maybe that I'm not given people enough credit, that it is not necessary to acknowledge the impact on the kids, it goes without saying and everyone is working on it?
What do others think about this?
All good wishes
Tori
Genevieve Labonte
Losing your cool can happen. I mean, get really frustrated, shout, leave the situation. You CAN get angry, cry, voice your concerns. IMO, when you start hitting, throwing things, kicking thing, etc... is when you cross the border and you need help.
Ideally, you canalize your frustrations in another way than all this violent behavior (go jogging, putting on loud music and dancing, etc...), but you sometimes need exterior help to learn the triggers to your anger and frustration.
Yes, we ARE human. Yes, sometimes life can get challenging, especially with young children, less sleep, frustrating situations, etc... but it doesn't have to show up on them or near them. Adults need to learn to talk to each other respectfully if they want their kids to learn to be respectful too.
Your friends are lucky to have you around, as you seem to be helping them a lot. Reading the RU lists really have helped me and finding a good therapist who helped me identify my triggers before the become too big were the best moves I've made. I still have hard moments, but I usually find a way to canalize without the children being involved or even aware of it.
Excusing to your children your bad behavior will help, but does not repair. If you have an extremely rare frustration and your kids are old enough to understand the why and how, it can be OK to voice to them why you were in that frustrating moment, and that you're sorry they witnessed it, but it shouldn't be a plaster on an everyday event for a 2 yo. They won't understand what's happening, only the stress and anxiety will be felt.
Your friends need exterior help IMO.
Genevieve
Le 2012-11-16 � 07:00, Victoria Otero a �crit :
Ideally, you canalize your frustrations in another way than all this violent behavior (go jogging, putting on loud music and dancing, etc...), but you sometimes need exterior help to learn the triggers to your anger and frustration.
Yes, we ARE human. Yes, sometimes life can get challenging, especially with young children, less sleep, frustrating situations, etc... but it doesn't have to show up on them or near them. Adults need to learn to talk to each other respectfully if they want their kids to learn to be respectful too.
Your friends are lucky to have you around, as you seem to be helping them a lot. Reading the RU lists really have helped me and finding a good therapist who helped me identify my triggers before the become too big were the best moves I've made. I still have hard moments, but I usually find a way to canalize without the children being involved or even aware of it.
Excusing to your children your bad behavior will help, but does not repair. If you have an extremely rare frustration and your kids are old enough to understand the why and how, it can be OK to voice to them why you were in that frustrating moment, and that you're sorry they witnessed it, but it shouldn't be a plaster on an everyday event for a 2 yo. They won't understand what's happening, only the stress and anxiety will be felt.
Your friends need exterior help IMO.
Genevieve
Le 2012-11-16 � 07:00, Victoria Otero a �crit :
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Hey there
>
> One of my closest friends (who is attachment parenting and hopes to Unschool) and her partner are struggling at the moment to manage their feelings. The most recent example a couple of evenings ago at bedtime, she had been critical of something her partner had done/not done and her partner reacted by shouting, swearing, throwing and breaking stuff (her stuff), she also screamed and shouted. Last weekend I was over visiting her and we were baking with her twins (both under 2), she left the room went upstairs and I heard a desperate scream, the girls were half way up the stairs. I scooped them up, distracted and continued baking. My friend appeared back in the kitchen in tears. She is screaming in order to manage her feelings when things are particularly stressful, this is happening more frequently. She also feels like screaming/cursing directly at the girls when they are asserting themselves and she feels at a loss of how to manage. Last night I spoke to her and shared my concerns, encouraging her to seek help. She has found psychological therapies useful in the past (both her and her partner have reacted to stress in these ways before they had children). I was very clear with her, saying that this wasn't creating the peaceful environment she wanted, was likely to impact on attachment and that she needed to be proactive in making changes and asking for help so as to minimise the risk of social services involvement, something she would struggle to cope with. My friend and her partner both have a history of mental health difficulties, and have worked hard to improve their lives. We have a good friendship and she was able to hear my concerns as care, and take them seriously.
>
> After our conversation I was reading a post and comments on a Facebook page aimed at parents who unschool/peacefully parent/attachment parent. The OP had 'lost it' with his kids, throwing stuff and shouting. There were lots of comments that normalised this, for example, 'we're only human' 'we all lose it sometimes' 'it's ok as long as you apologise' 'getting better is good enough' 'It can teach kids how to get angry and not hurt anyone' 'perfection isn't an option'. Reading this left me wondering whether my anxieties about my friend were over the top. My opinion is that these ways of being/reacting (screaming, shouting, throwing and breaking things) are not ok. People do make mistakes (obviously including myself) and we are always learning. It isn't useful to beat yourself up so that it prevents you from getting help or making changes. Normalising these behaviours though seems to be creating a culture among parents where anything goes, as long as you reflect on it, apologise and don't be hard on yourself. It seems that people empathise with the 'feeling guilty/bad' feelings a parent expresses while the impact on the children/family is sidelined. It maybe that I'm not given people enough credit, that it is not necessary to acknowledge the impact on the kids, it goes without saying and everyone is working on it?
>
> What do others think about this?
>
> All good wishes
> Tori
>
>
haydee deldenovese
In my opinion, you are right in step in. I was a yeller, and a screamer for
a period. When I had my 1st, it was magical. We spent all day together,
laughed, played, she became my teacher. Then, I tried to become pregnant
again, and had 3 misses back to back. That crushed me, and in the process
turned me into an ogre. I began being rude and mean to my little girl,
yelling at her when she wanted me to pick her up and I still was pregnant
(b4 the 2nd miss occured) that I could not pick her up because.... and on I
went with all this reasons. The thing is that during that time, I was not
really myself, and was incapable of dealing with my emotions, or not
dealing really, because I was bottling everything then erupting with her.
My poor baby had nothing to do with it.
I then realized how I was treating her when she no longer was sweet to me.
No more huggs, kisses, no more sweetness. That crushed me, but made me
become better, I then got pregnant again and although I had my fears, I
still picked her up and made her part of our lives again by letting her
talk to the baby in the belly and such. She was also a part of the birth,
and now they are inseparable. When she was about 3/4/5, I would ask her "if
you could change something about mommy to make her perfect what would that
be??? Her answer, was always "the yelling" you yell a lot mom, she would
say "and it scares me" with tears in her eyes...
The first time she answered that way, my heart melted. Ever since then, I
have been working non stop to try to fix it. Now she is 7, and when I ask
her what she would change, her answer is "NOTHING"! And that is why
changing is all worth it.! I took her on a date to lunch and I said how do
you feel? Are you happy? And she said " mom, I am the happiest kid in the
world, because I am so peaceful. I really feel at peace'
That time, my heart jumped for joy! And unschooling has looots to do with
it... so I do think you are a very good friend for stepping in, because
yelling and throwing things around a child is NOT the way to be. I've done
it, and sadly regret it. Sometimes, people don't realize that children do
listen and learn all the time (as I)... children at their younger years
learn by immitation, and it is better to create an environment that is
worth immitating. I learned it the hard way, but we are recovering (because
there is ALWAYS room to improve) and it has become the greatest journey...
Best of luck to all of you
a period. When I had my 1st, it was magical. We spent all day together,
laughed, played, she became my teacher. Then, I tried to become pregnant
again, and had 3 misses back to back. That crushed me, and in the process
turned me into an ogre. I began being rude and mean to my little girl,
yelling at her when she wanted me to pick her up and I still was pregnant
(b4 the 2nd miss occured) that I could not pick her up because.... and on I
went with all this reasons. The thing is that during that time, I was not
really myself, and was incapable of dealing with my emotions, or not
dealing really, because I was bottling everything then erupting with her.
My poor baby had nothing to do with it.
I then realized how I was treating her when she no longer was sweet to me.
No more huggs, kisses, no more sweetness. That crushed me, but made me
become better, I then got pregnant again and although I had my fears, I
still picked her up and made her part of our lives again by letting her
talk to the baby in the belly and such. She was also a part of the birth,
and now they are inseparable. When she was about 3/4/5, I would ask her "if
you could change something about mommy to make her perfect what would that
be??? Her answer, was always "the yelling" you yell a lot mom, she would
say "and it scares me" with tears in her eyes...
The first time she answered that way, my heart melted. Ever since then, I
have been working non stop to try to fix it. Now she is 7, and when I ask
her what she would change, her answer is "NOTHING"! And that is why
changing is all worth it.! I took her on a date to lunch and I said how do
you feel? Are you happy? And she said " mom, I am the happiest kid in the
world, because I am so peaceful. I really feel at peace'
That time, my heart jumped for joy! And unschooling has looots to do with
it... so I do think you are a very good friend for stepping in, because
yelling and throwing things around a child is NOT the way to be. I've done
it, and sadly regret it. Sometimes, people don't realize that children do
listen and learn all the time (as I)... children at their younger years
learn by immitation, and it is better to create an environment that is
worth immitating. I learned it the hard way, but we are recovering (because
there is ALWAYS room to improve) and it has become the greatest journey...
Best of luck to all of you
On Nov 16, 2012 8:02 AM, "Victoria Otero" <tori.otero@...> wrote:
> **
>
>
>
> Hey there
>
> One of my closest friends (who is attachment parenting and hopes to
> Unschool) and her partner are struggling at the moment to manage their
> feelings. The most recent example a couple of evenings ago at bedtime, she
> had been critical of something her partner had done/not done and her
> partner reacted by shouting, swearing, throwing and breaking stuff (her
> stuff), she also screamed and shouted. Last weekend I was over visiting her
> and we were baking with her twins (both under 2), she left the room went
> upstairs and I heard a desperate scream, the girls were half way up the
> stairs. I scooped them up, distracted and continued baking. My friend
> appeared back in the kitchen in tears. She is screaming in order to manage
> her feelings when things are particularly stressful, this is happening more
> frequently. She also feels like screaming/cursing directly at the girls
> when they are asserting themselves and she feels at a loss of how to
> manage. Last night I spoke to her and shared my concerns, encouraging her
> to seek help. She has found psychological therapies useful in the past
> (both her and her partner have reacted to stress in these ways before they
> had children). I was very clear with her, saying that this wasn't creating
> the peaceful environment she wanted, was likely to impact on attachment and
> that she needed to be proactive in making changes and asking for help so as
> to minimise the risk of social services involvement, something she would
> struggle to cope with. My friend and her partner both have a history of
> mental health difficulties, and have worked hard to improve their lives. We
> have a good friendship and she was able to hear my concerns as care, and
> take them seriously.
>
> After our conversation I was reading a post and comments on a Facebook
> page aimed at parents who unschool/peacefully parent/attachment parent. The
> OP had 'lost it' with his kids, throwing stuff and shouting. There were
> lots of comments that normalised this, for example, 'we're only human' 'we
> all lose it sometimes' 'it's ok as long as you apologise' 'getting better
> is good enough' 'It can teach kids how to get angry and not hurt anyone'
> 'perfection isn't an option'. Reading this left me wondering whether my
> anxieties about my friend were over the top. My opinion is that these ways
> of being/reacting (screaming, shouting, throwing and breaking things) are
> not ok. People do make mistakes (obviously including myself) and we are
> always learning. It isn't useful to beat yourself up so that it prevents
> you from getting help or making changes. Normalising these behaviours
> though seems to be creating a culture among parents where anything goes, as
> long as you reflect on it, apologise and don't be hard on yourself. It
> seems that people empathise with the 'feeling guilty/bad' feelings a parent
> expresses while the impact on the children/family is sidelined. It maybe
> that I'm not given people enough credit, that it is not necessary to
> acknowledge the impact on the kids, it goes without saying and everyone is
> working on it?
>
> What do others think about this?
>
> All good wishes
> Tori
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sharkeydawn
I completely agree with your view Tori. In my experience people don't take kindly to suggestions about how to improve, even when they have explicitly sought them! Really what they crave is sympathy, and someone to tell them that what they did was fine. I feel that is ok to seek validation of ones feelings, but that no one should expect another person to give them excuses for poor behaviour.
It's true that no one is perfect, but it is only by acknowledging where we missed the mark that we can improve.
My personal experience is that many fora don't really support that view, but it is one if the things I have always loved about this list.
The focus elsewhere does seem to be on making a parent feel better rather than considering the wellbeing of other parties. I struggle with that.
Dawn
Sent from my iPhone
It's true that no one is perfect, but it is only by acknowledging where we missed the mark that we can improve.
My personal experience is that many fora don't really support that view, but it is one if the things I have always loved about this list.
The focus elsewhere does seem to be on making a parent feel better rather than considering the wellbeing of other parties. I struggle with that.
Dawn
Sent from my iPhone
On 16 Nov 2012, at 12:00, Victoria Otero <tori.otero@...> wrote:
>
> Hey there
>
> One of my closest friends (who is attachment parenting and hopes to Unschool) and her partner are struggling at the moment to manage their feelings. The most recent example a couple of evenings ago at bedtime, she had been critical of something her partner had done/not done and her partner reacted by shouting, swearing, throwing and breaking stuff (her stuff), she also screamed and shouted. Last weekend I was over visiting her and we were baking with her twins (both under 2), she left the room went upstairs and I heard a desperate scream, the girls were half way up the stairs. I scooped them up, distracted and continued baking. My friend appeared back in the kitchen in tears. She is screaming in order to manage her feelings when things are particularly stressful, this is happening more frequently. She also feels like screaming/cursing directly at the girls when they are asserting themselves and she feels at a loss of how to manage. Last night I spoke to her and shared my concerns, encouraging her to seek help. She has found psychological therapies useful in the past (both her and her partner have reacted to stress in these ways before they had children). I was very clear with her, saying that this wasn't creating the peaceful environment she wanted, was likely to impact on attachment and that she needed to be proactive in making changes and asking for help so as to minimise the risk of social services involvement, something she would struggle to cope with. My friend and her partner both have a history of mental health difficulties, and have worked hard to improve their lives. We have a good friendship and she was able to hear my concerns as care, and take them seriously.
>
> After our conversation I was reading a post and comments on a Facebook page aimed at parents who unschool/peacefully parent/attachment parent. The OP had 'lost it' with his kids, throwing stuff and shouting. There were lots of comments that normalised this, for example, 'we're only human' 'we all lose it sometimes' 'it's ok as long as you apologise' 'getting better is good enough' 'It can teach kids how to get angry and not hurt anyone' 'perfection isn't an option'. Reading this left me wondering whether my anxieties about my friend were over the top. My opinion is that these ways of being/reacting (screaming, shouting, throwing and breaking things) are not ok. People do make mistakes (obviously including myself) and we are always learning. It isn't useful to beat yourself up so that it prevents you from getting help or making changes. Normalising these behaviours though seems to be creating a culture among parents where anything goes, as long as you reflect on it, apologise and don't be hard on yourself. It seems that people empathise with the 'feeling guilty/bad' feelings a parent expresses while the impact on the children/family is sidelined. It maybe that I'm not given people enough credit, that it is not necessary to acknowledge the impact on the kids, it goes without saying and everyone is working on it?
>
> What do others think about this?
>
> All good wishes
> Tori
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=- Normalising these behaviours though seems to be creating a culture among parents where anything goes, as long as you reflect on it, apologise and don't be hard on yourself.-=-
There was a mom who killed her two teens a year or two ago. She had talked to her friends about her frustration, and they soothed her and told her "there there don't worry."
Maybe they should have defended her kids as good kids and reminded her of the good parts of her life, and of their abilities and strengths, instead of agreeing with her that they should be more helpful, get better grades, or whatever it was she had chosen to focus on and criticize.
I suppose it can be a matter of life and death, especially when someone gets into the extreme end of adrenaline and "acting out." (Wouldn't it be called "acting out" if a child threw a screaming, destructive fit?)
-=-After our conversation I was reading a post and comments on a Facebook page aimed at parents who unschool/peacefully parent/attachment parent. The OP had 'lost it' with his kids, throwing stuff and shouting. There were lots of comments that normalised this, for example, 'we're only human' 'we all lose it sometimes' 'it's ok as long as you apologise' 'getting better is good enough' 'It can teach kids how to get angry and not hurt anyone' 'perfection isn't an option'. -=-
I would like to think that every one of those people also offered a solid, useful piece of advice about how NOT to lose it, about how NOT to settle for "good enough" parenting when "really good" parenting is just about two breaths and a conscious decision away from there.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
There was a mom who killed her two teens a year or two ago. She had talked to her friends about her frustration, and they soothed her and told her "there there don't worry."
Maybe they should have defended her kids as good kids and reminded her of the good parts of her life, and of their abilities and strengths, instead of agreeing with her that they should be more helpful, get better grades, or whatever it was she had chosen to focus on and criticize.
I suppose it can be a matter of life and death, especially when someone gets into the extreme end of adrenaline and "acting out." (Wouldn't it be called "acting out" if a child threw a screaming, destructive fit?)
-=-After our conversation I was reading a post and comments on a Facebook page aimed at parents who unschool/peacefully parent/attachment parent. The OP had 'lost it' with his kids, throwing stuff and shouting. There were lots of comments that normalised this, for example, 'we're only human' 'we all lose it sometimes' 'it's ok as long as you apologise' 'getting better is good enough' 'It can teach kids how to get angry and not hurt anyone' 'perfection isn't an option'. -=-
I would like to think that every one of those people also offered a solid, useful piece of advice about how NOT to lose it, about how NOT to settle for "good enough" parenting when "really good" parenting is just about two breaths and a conscious decision away from there.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Nov 16, 2012, at 7:00 AM, Victoria Otero wrote:
The unconscious intent is to renew someone's strength. It's picking someone up, cleaning up their wounds, giving them a breather from the trauma they're going through, telling them they're strong and whole and good. The intent is to reinvigorate them so they can continue to fight for change.
Basically it's what a good coach does. If there's a set back in someone's ongoing work to do better, an energizing speech can get someone going again.
*If* someone knows what they must do, *if* someone is actively working to figure out what will work, support can serve that purpose.
That's one of the core things our kids need from us as they're learning.* They need the freedom to try things out, to see what happens, try new things based on what happened. They need support exploring as long as their interest holds. A word here. A "You might want to try this instead," there. A "Thought you might find this interesting," thrown in there.
* (All kids need active support, but unschooling focuses on providing it.)
Basically kids want us to trust they can figure it out themselves. They want us to trust they'll ask for help when they need it. They want to trust that we'll be there to spot them to prevent disasters. They want to trust we'll provide the emotional and physical support they need to explore.
Adults *expect* freedom to explore, *expect* no one will interfere unless they're asked for advice. If someone offers unsolicited advice, the likely reaction is irritation, even hostility.
I don't know how much of that irritation is natural (biological), how much is reaction to a childhood of being told what to do and what not to do, how much is reaction to this society's worship of self-reliance. But the overwhelming message in this society is that you support people and trust them to do better. If they need help they'll ask.
There's a BUT coming. ;-)
How many people are capable of figuring out how to have great relationships with their spouses and kids?
*If* they had great role models growing up, they could. But most parents are -- without realizing it -- doing a crappy job. Often what kids experience growing up is being made to set their needs aside for others. The message is others' needs are important. Others' needs *for* you are important. Yours are only important if someone else thinks they're important or if they don't bother someone else.
Is that a good foundation to build great relationships from? To believe everyone's needs but yours are important? To grow up wanting and wrong?
When kids grow up they may shove their needs down because they've learned their needs aren't important. Or they may figure out it's everyone for themselves: the only way to meet your needs is to put yours first ahead of everyone else's. (A few with high interpersonal intelligence do manage to figure out.)
And when their social tools don't work with a spouse or kid, what do they do? Do they step back and reassess their whole belief system? Not likely! They usually try even harder with the tools that don't work. They hit the screw even harder with the hammer ;-) They blame the other person. They give up.
Maybe they'll look to self help books. Maybe they'll hear a bit of unsolicited advice. But for the most part they're conditioned sociologically or biologically to figure it out themselves. But, unless someone has high interpersonal intelligence, if they do ever figure it out it can take *decades*.
The relationship with their spouse and kids doesn't have decades.
But biology and society will conspire against people from seeking out the help their need.
Most people will reject help unless they've asked for it. (Which I think is mostly human nature. It's why schools don't work. You can't impose you're idea of right on someone without expecting that some people will resist.)
Many people tie their identity with what they know. (That's a huge message picked up in school.) If you do, say, believe something wrong you're wrong and bad. (Loads of people spend their childhoods feeling wrong and in need of fixing.)
Many people who do seek help want help with their own ideas. They aren't asking to have their belief system stripped down and a new one installed. ;-) They just want the same but better.
Social support groups will protect one of their own if they sense "You're wrong," in help offered. The overwhelming message is that it's better to support and trust than to potentially hurt someone by telling them they're wrong.
*Some* people can separate who they are from what they know. *Some* people can see an idea separate from the people holding that idea and understand that if you want to understand the idea quickly, it works best to clear your worktable of the old ideas and start from scratch.
Most people aren't. That's why this model of learning about unschooling doesn't work in every forum. It's why it will be generally greeted with hostility. It's why it's better if people come here seeking it out rather than it being imposed where people haven't asked for it.
So, to answer your question ;-) the groups aren't wrong to offer words of support. Support is their function.
BUT they aren't being as *helpful* as they're certain they are. Cheery words and possibly a bit of advice for people who've hit stumbling blocks is helping them *if* they know how to change or if they don't have a deadline for learning something. Supporting people who don't know how to change, who need to change as soon as possible is not helping them. It's not helping those they're hurting. It makes being wrong feel more comfortable. To change people need to feel uncomfortable.
Of course telling the support groups they aren't being helpful would be met with defensiveness and hostility ;-)
A good coach *does* give pep talks. But a good coach also supplies good solid information that helps someone change. Pep talks without the information on how to change is just cheerleading.
It takes some special skills to offer help in a social support group that doesn't have that feeling of criticism that support people are so sensitive to. It takes a willingness to let slide advice you feel is harmful. Support groups are intended to support who people are, and what they want to do, not support a particular way of changing.
*If* someone wants help, *if* someone goes to a coach, *if* someone is willing to let go of what's getting in their way to take on a new belief system, they'll be open to change, open to listening.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> There were lots of comments that normalised this, for example, 'we're only human' 'we all lose it sometimes'That's what supporting someone looks like.
The unconscious intent is to renew someone's strength. It's picking someone up, cleaning up their wounds, giving them a breather from the trauma they're going through, telling them they're strong and whole and good. The intent is to reinvigorate them so they can continue to fight for change.
Basically it's what a good coach does. If there's a set back in someone's ongoing work to do better, an energizing speech can get someone going again.
*If* someone knows what they must do, *if* someone is actively working to figure out what will work, support can serve that purpose.
That's one of the core things our kids need from us as they're learning.* They need the freedom to try things out, to see what happens, try new things based on what happened. They need support exploring as long as their interest holds. A word here. A "You might want to try this instead," there. A "Thought you might find this interesting," thrown in there.
* (All kids need active support, but unschooling focuses on providing it.)
Basically kids want us to trust they can figure it out themselves. They want us to trust they'll ask for help when they need it. They want to trust that we'll be there to spot them to prevent disasters. They want to trust we'll provide the emotional and physical support they need to explore.
Adults *expect* freedom to explore, *expect* no one will interfere unless they're asked for advice. If someone offers unsolicited advice, the likely reaction is irritation, even hostility.
I don't know how much of that irritation is natural (biological), how much is reaction to a childhood of being told what to do and what not to do, how much is reaction to this society's worship of self-reliance. But the overwhelming message in this society is that you support people and trust them to do better. If they need help they'll ask.
There's a BUT coming. ;-)
How many people are capable of figuring out how to have great relationships with their spouses and kids?
*If* they had great role models growing up, they could. But most parents are -- without realizing it -- doing a crappy job. Often what kids experience growing up is being made to set their needs aside for others. The message is others' needs are important. Others' needs *for* you are important. Yours are only important if someone else thinks they're important or if they don't bother someone else.
Is that a good foundation to build great relationships from? To believe everyone's needs but yours are important? To grow up wanting and wrong?
When kids grow up they may shove their needs down because they've learned their needs aren't important. Or they may figure out it's everyone for themselves: the only way to meet your needs is to put yours first ahead of everyone else's. (A few with high interpersonal intelligence do manage to figure out.)
And when their social tools don't work with a spouse or kid, what do they do? Do they step back and reassess their whole belief system? Not likely! They usually try even harder with the tools that don't work. They hit the screw even harder with the hammer ;-) They blame the other person. They give up.
Maybe they'll look to self help books. Maybe they'll hear a bit of unsolicited advice. But for the most part they're conditioned sociologically or biologically to figure it out themselves. But, unless someone has high interpersonal intelligence, if they do ever figure it out it can take *decades*.
The relationship with their spouse and kids doesn't have decades.
But biology and society will conspire against people from seeking out the help their need.
Most people will reject help unless they've asked for it. (Which I think is mostly human nature. It's why schools don't work. You can't impose you're idea of right on someone without expecting that some people will resist.)
Many people tie their identity with what they know. (That's a huge message picked up in school.) If you do, say, believe something wrong you're wrong and bad. (Loads of people spend their childhoods feeling wrong and in need of fixing.)
Many people who do seek help want help with their own ideas. They aren't asking to have their belief system stripped down and a new one installed. ;-) They just want the same but better.
Social support groups will protect one of their own if they sense "You're wrong," in help offered. The overwhelming message is that it's better to support and trust than to potentially hurt someone by telling them they're wrong.
*Some* people can separate who they are from what they know. *Some* people can see an idea separate from the people holding that idea and understand that if you want to understand the idea quickly, it works best to clear your worktable of the old ideas and start from scratch.
Most people aren't. That's why this model of learning about unschooling doesn't work in every forum. It's why it will be generally greeted with hostility. It's why it's better if people come here seeking it out rather than it being imposed where people haven't asked for it.
So, to answer your question ;-) the groups aren't wrong to offer words of support. Support is their function.
BUT they aren't being as *helpful* as they're certain they are. Cheery words and possibly a bit of advice for people who've hit stumbling blocks is helping them *if* they know how to change or if they don't have a deadline for learning something. Supporting people who don't know how to change, who need to change as soon as possible is not helping them. It's not helping those they're hurting. It makes being wrong feel more comfortable. To change people need to feel uncomfortable.
Of course telling the support groups they aren't being helpful would be met with defensiveness and hostility ;-)
A good coach *does* give pep talks. But a good coach also supplies good solid information that helps someone change. Pep talks without the information on how to change is just cheerleading.
It takes some special skills to offer help in a social support group that doesn't have that feeling of criticism that support people are so sensitive to. It takes a willingness to let slide advice you feel is harmful. Support groups are intended to support who people are, and what they want to do, not support a particular way of changing.
*If* someone wants help, *if* someone goes to a coach, *if* someone is willing to let go of what's getting in their way to take on a new belief system, they'll be open to change, open to listening.
Joyce
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Sandra Dodd
-=-Losing your cool can happen. I mean, get really frustrated, shout, leave the situation. You CAN get angry, cry, voice your concerns. IMO, when you start hitting, throwing things, kicking thing, etc... is when you cross the border and you need help. -=-
Some kids were never once hit, but are still scarred by things parents said or by the way their parents looked at them, or refused to look at them, or withheld affection and aid.
I've absolutely been angry and done things I regretted, but there isn't a border to that. If one wants to improve oneself, and become a better parent, it should be a shrinking personal problem, with more "cool losing" at a younger age, and much, much less with more experience and age.
To categorize it as okay as long as it's not physical won't set a very good example for one's children, nor lead to a good, close relationship with them.
Holly and I have yelled at each other a few times a year for the past few years, and I'm plenty old, and she's gone from 16 to 21 and has lived with other families, and come back, and had two serious boyfriends, and still lives at home, and we don't always treat each other as well as we could. I don't think it's okay; I'm not self-soothing about it. We're both learning ways to avoid frustration. We're pulling away from conflict, rather than considering it acceptable and inevitable. What we learn by these efforts improves our other relationships, too.
-=- I still have hard moments, but I usually find a way to canalize without the children being involved or even aware of it. -=-
"Canalize"? To channel? To put things down a canal?
-=-Your friends are lucky to have you around, as you seem to be helping them a lot. Reading the RU lists really have helped me and finding a good therapist who helped me identify my triggers before the become too big were the best moves I've made. -=-
Please don't use "RU." Write out "unschooling" (or "radical unschooling" if you must). "RU" (as a term) has problems.
Therapy can be lifesaving. I have some unschooling-friendly therapists and counselors contacts collected here:
http://sandradodd.com/issues/therapy
Sandra
Some kids were never once hit, but are still scarred by things parents said or by the way their parents looked at them, or refused to look at them, or withheld affection and aid.
I've absolutely been angry and done things I regretted, but there isn't a border to that. If one wants to improve oneself, and become a better parent, it should be a shrinking personal problem, with more "cool losing" at a younger age, and much, much less with more experience and age.
To categorize it as okay as long as it's not physical won't set a very good example for one's children, nor lead to a good, close relationship with them.
Holly and I have yelled at each other a few times a year for the past few years, and I'm plenty old, and she's gone from 16 to 21 and has lived with other families, and come back, and had two serious boyfriends, and still lives at home, and we don't always treat each other as well as we could. I don't think it's okay; I'm not self-soothing about it. We're both learning ways to avoid frustration. We're pulling away from conflict, rather than considering it acceptable and inevitable. What we learn by these efforts improves our other relationships, too.
-=- I still have hard moments, but I usually find a way to canalize without the children being involved or even aware of it. -=-
"Canalize"? To channel? To put things down a canal?
-=-Your friends are lucky to have you around, as you seem to be helping them a lot. Reading the RU lists really have helped me and finding a good therapist who helped me identify my triggers before the become too big were the best moves I've made. -=-
Please don't use "RU." Write out "unschooling" (or "radical unschooling" if you must). "RU" (as a term) has problems.
Therapy can be lifesaving. I have some unschooling-friendly therapists and counselors contacts collected here:
http://sandradodd.com/issues/therapy
Sandra
Jennifer
> -=- I still have hard moments, but I usually find a way to canalize without the children being involved or even aware of it. -=-In Spanish "canalizar", meaning to focus or direct, makes perfect sense in this context. I imagine this also works in other romance languages. As an English speaker living in a foreign country, I am often hesitant to post on local lists because I am afraid (my own school baggage) of this exact type criticism. If the poster is a non-native speaker of English, this could be a very logical mistake.
>
> "Canalize"? To channel? To put things down a canal?
Joyce Fetteroll
> Losing your cool can happen. I mean, get really frustrated, shout, leave the situation. You CAN get angry, cry, voice your concernsThe question is, Why does it need stated?
That's a real question. Why does anyone who felt a sense of relief when reading the above post need soothing words to reassure them that it's okay to make mistakes?
Were you [general you, not personal you] shamed for missteps, humiliated for less than stellar choices? Is it a genetic predisposition to be filled with self-recrimination for not meeting your own standards of perfection?
Was there little attention from parents when you did things right? And a spotlight when you did things wrong?
Did you feel guilty for each instance of imperfection? Do you still feel that?
It's worth examining. Especially since you may unintentionally be doing the same to your kids. Are you supporting them making thoughtful choices and thoughtfully assessing the outcome to make more informed choices in the future? Do you focus on the exploration to discover what works and what doesn't or on figuring out the right answer?
Do you see your own mistakes as opportunities to assess what you could do differently next time? Or is it something shameful to shove into a dark corner as you soothe yourself with the reminder that "you're only human", and promise yourself to do better next time?
If you can't step back and assess why something didn't work and what might work better it's very hard to make progress.
If your sense of self-worth is tied to getting it right rather than making better choices each time, it's hard to try new ideas.
If you can't see "working well" as a navigational aid rather than as an "impossible perfection" that you aren't capable of, it's very hard to figure out what's not working and why and to figure out ways that will work better.
And if you see the above 3 statements as more evidence of you're not being good enough, it will help you enormously to shift your view to seeing those as problems in need of a solution rather than permanent blots on a field of white.
There was a good discussion about guilt back at the beginning of October:
The "right way"
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/message/68804
Joyce
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Sandra Dodd
-=-"Canalize"? To channel? To put things down a canal?
-=-In Spanish "canalizar", meaning to focus or direct, makes perfect sense in this context.-=-
Thanks. It's not a word I knew.
-=-I imagine this also works in other romance languages.-=-
I understood it in English, even though I had never seen it before. My question wasn't so much whether my guess was correct, but whether that's what the first poster intended to say.
-=-As an English speaker living in a foreign country, I am often hesitant to post on local lists because I am afraid (my own school baggage) of this exact type criticism. -=-
It wasn't criticism. It was a request for clarification.
If it's a word I had never seen, there are probably others here who didn't know it, either.
When a parent wants to become an unschooling parent--to live in such a way that all the things school is intended to provide are handled within the family--advice to continue to live with frustration and negativity, but to channel or focus them away from the children isn't nearly as good as advice on how to learn to see the world in a more postive way, and to practice making decisions that avoid negativity.
Your accusation of criticism IS criticism. That's not as useful as the explanation of the word was.
Helpful support, in this discussion, is going to be "the examination of the philosophy of unschooling and attentive parenting and a place for sharing examined lives based on the principles underlying unschooling." http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/
Sandra
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-=-In Spanish "canalizar", meaning to focus or direct, makes perfect sense in this context.-=-
Thanks. It's not a word I knew.
-=-I imagine this also works in other romance languages.-=-
I understood it in English, even though I had never seen it before. My question wasn't so much whether my guess was correct, but whether that's what the first poster intended to say.
-=-As an English speaker living in a foreign country, I am often hesitant to post on local lists because I am afraid (my own school baggage) of this exact type criticism. -=-
It wasn't criticism. It was a request for clarification.
If it's a word I had never seen, there are probably others here who didn't know it, either.
When a parent wants to become an unschooling parent--to live in such a way that all the things school is intended to provide are handled within the family--advice to continue to live with frustration and negativity, but to channel or focus them away from the children isn't nearly as good as advice on how to learn to see the world in a more postive way, and to practice making decisions that avoid negativity.
Your accusation of criticism IS criticism. That's not as useful as the explanation of the word was.
Helpful support, in this discussion, is going to be "the examination of the philosophy of unschooling and attentive parenting and a place for sharing examined lives based on the principles underlying unschooling." http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/
Sandra
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Tori
I'm responding to a comment Joyce made in this thread, Re: Support helpful/unhelpful, but started a new subject heading, because it's such a powerful statement connected to some current experience that I'd like to share.
Here's what Joyce said:
Here's what Joyce said:
--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...> wrote:
>
Basically kids want us to trust they can figure it out themselves. They want us to trust they'll ask for help when they need it. They want to trust that we'll be there to spot them to prevent disasters. They want to trust we'll provide the emotional and physical support they need to explore.
>
>
Our kids (twin sister and brother)are 5 years old now and it's evident to people we know that our family is actually following through with our plans to homeschool. We unschool, but so few people have a real understanding of what that means that I rarely mention it.
We're barraged with questions about how our kids will ever learn everything they'll need. Inherent in these questions seem to be doubts that my husband and I are somehow qualified as well as fear of what's not conventional and an obvious separation of life and learning. But what seems most significant is a lack of trust that children--human beings--desire to learn of their own initiative.
Even before five years of age our kids have desired to learn letters, numbers and words in addition to a million other less schoolish things. They've asked about the meaning of words used by adults, incorporated the words and phrases for their own use and even made jokes about things that seemed illogical to them. To me the jokes seem a far more sophisticated expression of understanding than rote recitation of vocabulary definitions required by schools.
Counting began with picking just the right number of basil leaves for sandwiches, identifying basil and at least a dozen other garden plants along the way. Our daughter pointed out once that fractions (though she called them 'parts') and percentages are sort of the same thing. She sings to rabbits, chickens and plants and translates her conversation with them into drawings and piano compositions. Our son, who is interested in systems and relationships, (he calls it 'stuff that works') one day picked up a globe to show me that the imaginary plane flight he was taking would take less time veering toward the pole rather than nearer the equator. He said top and middle, but he clearly grasped concepts about which he'd never been formally taught; and he's never actually flown nor seen those charts in the seat back pocket.
I'm not suggesting that our kids are gifted, but rather that kids--human beings--are driven to learn unless the joy of it is driven out of them.
They do ask for help when they need it. Sometimes they ask for help with things I know they can do independently, but we help then too. I figure it's our job, as the more experienced family members, to make sure the world is accessible and support their exploration of it. I want our kids to know it's okay to make mistakes and that we learn more from them than we do when things turn out right the first time. I want them to retain their joy in the doing, and to recognize that working harder and longer can be a pleasure when one chooses to do so.
I think about how our kids learn so seamlessly and how so many of the adults in my university classes struggle, having been taught that learning is difficult, that it's the grade or the degree that counts rather than the experience gained. Although some people survive the school experience without that baggage most do not.
I'd also like to share that I've learned so much here from reading of others' experience and by the challenge of finding words to describe and understand my own.
Tori
Genevieve Labonte
> > -=- I still have hard moments, but I usually find a way to canalize without the children being involved or even aware of it. -=-****Yes, it's exactly what it means. And I'm French. After reading Sandra's reply, I've been thinking about how to describe it.
> >
> > "Canalize"? To channel? To put things down a canal?
>
> In Spanish "canalizar", meaning to focus or direct, makes perfect sense in this context. I imagine this also works in other romance languages.
>
> As an English speaker living in a foreign country, I am often hesitant to post on local lists because I am afraid (my own school baggage) of this exact type criticism. If the poster is a non-native speaker of English, this could be a very logical mistake.That's why I never wrote before.
>
>
Genevieve
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BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
> -=- I still have hard moments, but I usually find a way to canalize without the children being involved or even aware of it. -=--In Spanish "canalizar", meaning to focus or direct, makes perfect sense in this context. I imagine this also works in other romance languages. As an English speaker living in a foreign country, I am often hesitant to post on local lists because I am afraid (my own school baggage) of this exact type criticism. If the poster is a non-native speaker of English, this could be a very logical mistake.
>
> "Canalize"? To channel? To put things down a canal?
=-=-=-=-=-=-=----
It is not a criticism. It is a question. So you can clarify. We need clarity in this list. There are people from all over the world here and lots of those who English is not their first language. |English is not my first language. I am not afraid to post. I sure try to be mindful of my words and as clear as I can. When I am not I can sure count on someone asking me to clarify and that is a good thing.
Clear ideas and words will lead you to clear thinking and when you have a clear idea of what you want and how you want your home to be and look like it will make it easier to act and choose how to act in a way that will lead you there.
I clearly do not want to be the screaming mom who is kicking stuff , screaming at my kids because I am frustrated!! I want to be able to take a deep breath and make a better choice. Once I made that decision and I have decided that screaming and being mad is not how I want to be then I can make a better choice .
I have not screamed in a long long time. Do not remember the last time. With my kids even raising my voice can hurt their feelings. They do not like it. My husband does not like it either. It hurts their feelings. It would hurt mine too. Sometimes I still raise my voice but I am able to stop, take a deep breath and choose to lower my voice and calm down.
If you need to channel or "canalizar" why not channel on calming and peace?
I have hit my older son a few times, not because I thought it was good but because I lost it and hit him. I am not proud. I am horrified. One time when he was five I hit him and then I called my wonderful friend Schuyler , who posts here, and she told me to just decide to stop, to never do it again. I did just that. Instead of finding excuses in ":Oh I just lost it" or " I was mad and it was a mistake." I did consciously choose to never do it again and I never did. It was not that I thought it was OK before either!
One can keep finding excuses to scream and shout or they can decide to make better choices. I am not perfect. Far from that but I am not looking for excuses. I have a clear picture of how I want to be as a mom and I make choices based on that.
Alex Polikowsky
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Sandra Dodd
-=-The focus elsewhere does seem to be on making a parent feel better rather than considering the wellbeing of other parties. I struggle with that.-=-
I want to make parents feel better too, but indirectly. :-)
I want them to feel incredibly successful and important in their child's life. I want them to amaze themselves. I want them to see a wonderful parent reflected in the eyes of a happy child.
If they're not interested in moving toward what it takes to have that kind of better feeling, then I don't care whether they feel good or not. If they're willing to be selfish enough to care more about their own feelings than the feelings of a child. they SHOULD feel bad.
I really like the stories of success and joy people have brought here.
Sandra
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I want to make parents feel better too, but indirectly. :-)
I want them to feel incredibly successful and important in their child's life. I want them to amaze themselves. I want them to see a wonderful parent reflected in the eyes of a happy child.
If they're not interested in moving toward what it takes to have that kind of better feeling, then I don't care whether they feel good or not. If they're willing to be selfish enough to care more about their own feelings than the feelings of a child. they SHOULD feel bad.
I really like the stories of success and joy people have brought here.
Sandra
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Pam Sorooshian
On Sat, Nov 17, 2012 at 9:03 AM, Tori <tandosmama@...> wrote:
curriculum." Think of how little humor there is in school and what there is
is contrived to teach a lesson.
takes to protect that curiosity and love of learning that the kids were
born with.
-pam
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> <<To me the jokes seem a far more sophisticated expression ofI agree so much. We used to say that we were using the "get the joke
> understanding than rote recitation of vocabulary definitions required by
> schools.>>
>
curriculum." Think of how little humor there is in school and what there is
is contrived to teach a lesson.
>So very true! My unschooling motto was "do no harm" meaning do what it
> I'm not suggesting that our kids are gifted, but rather that kids--human
> beings--are driven to learn unless the joy of it is driven out of them.
>
takes to protect that curiosity and love of learning that the kids were
born with.
-pam
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keetry
> > -=- I still have hard moments, but I usually find a way to canalize without the children being involved or even aware of it. -=-I took this as a request for clarification, not a criticism.
> >
> > "Canalize"? To channel? To put things down a canal?
>
> In Spanish "canalizar", meaning to focus or direct, makes perfect sense in this context. I imagine this also works in other romance languages. As an English speaker living in a foreign country, I am often hesitant to post on local lists because I am afraid (my own school baggage) of this exact type criticism. If the poster is a non-native speaker of English, this could be a very logical mistake.
>
Alysia
Victoria Otero
Joyce said
-=- That's what supporting someone looks like. -=-
This was really useful, in helping me adjust my expectations about the different groups I'm part of. You articulated it really clearly, I kinda of knew but wouldn't have been able to explain it as well or think about as clearly. Now I'm able to make a better choice about how I respond in different situations.
Sandra said
-=- I want to make parents feel better too, but indirectly. :-)
I want them to feel incredibly successful and important in their child's life. I want them to amaze themselves. I want them to see a wonderful parent reflected in the eyes of a happy child -=-
I find the writing and discussion on Always Learning incredibly supportive, my outlook is much more positive, I can see possibilities and choices. I used to experience change as scary, now I embrace it, I feel confident about my ability to change. I can see how happy my son is, and my partner too, our connection is stronger, and we have so much fun sharing our lives together. I guess you have seen the transformation that happens in families before, I didn't expect it when we began our journey so I'm amazed :) We've been Unschooling for 3 years now and it's still early days but I know now that we are on the right path. I am aware that I haven't given examples of any of these changes, I think there is still a little anxiety about whether I'm good enough, writing on here asking for advice was the first step, maybe now I can start to share our lives a little more and celebrate with others.
Alex Polikowsky said
-=-One time when he was five I hit him and then I called my wonderful friend Schuyler , who posts here, and she told me to just decide to stop, to never do it again. I did just that. Instead of finding excuses in ":Oh I just lost it" or " I was mad and it was a mistake." I did consciously choose to never do it again and I never did. It was not that I thought it was OK before either! -=-
Before you posted this I was looking back at how I had made changes in my own life so that I could offer something useful and tangible to my friend who I spoke about in my first post. What I came up with is was that I just made the decision to stop doing whatever it was that was damaging my relationship with my son and my partner. I don't really understand why this was so difficult. Part of me says that if it is that easy why do people have such a hard time doing it, but that is what it amounts to. I think the difference is hope, the belief that making a decision to stop is possible. This is one of the gifts the people on this list have given me.
Thank you
-=- That's what supporting someone looks like. -=-
This was really useful, in helping me adjust my expectations about the different groups I'm part of. You articulated it really clearly, I kinda of knew but wouldn't have been able to explain it as well or think about as clearly. Now I'm able to make a better choice about how I respond in different situations.
Sandra said
-=- I want to make parents feel better too, but indirectly. :-)
I want them to feel incredibly successful and important in their child's life. I want them to amaze themselves. I want them to see a wonderful parent reflected in the eyes of a happy child -=-
I find the writing and discussion on Always Learning incredibly supportive, my outlook is much more positive, I can see possibilities and choices. I used to experience change as scary, now I embrace it, I feel confident about my ability to change. I can see how happy my son is, and my partner too, our connection is stronger, and we have so much fun sharing our lives together. I guess you have seen the transformation that happens in families before, I didn't expect it when we began our journey so I'm amazed :) We've been Unschooling for 3 years now and it's still early days but I know now that we are on the right path. I am aware that I haven't given examples of any of these changes, I think there is still a little anxiety about whether I'm good enough, writing on here asking for advice was the first step, maybe now I can start to share our lives a little more and celebrate with others.
Alex Polikowsky said
-=-One time when he was five I hit him and then I called my wonderful friend Schuyler , who posts here, and she told me to just decide to stop, to never do it again. I did just that. Instead of finding excuses in ":Oh I just lost it" or " I was mad and it was a mistake." I did consciously choose to never do it again and I never did. It was not that I thought it was OK before either! -=-
Before you posted this I was looking back at how I had made changes in my own life so that I could offer something useful and tangible to my friend who I spoke about in my first post. What I came up with is was that I just made the decision to stop doing whatever it was that was damaging my relationship with my son and my partner. I don't really understand why this was so difficult. Part of me says that if it is that easy why do people have such a hard time doing it, but that is what it amounts to. I think the difference is hope, the belief that making a decision to stop is possible. This is one of the gifts the people on this list have given me.
Thank you
On 18 Nov 2012, at 16:03, keetry wrote:
> > > -=- I still have hard moments, but I usually find a way to canalize without the children being involved or even aware of it. -=-
> > >
> > > "Canalize"? To channel? To put things down a canal?
> >
> > In Spanish "canalizar", meaning to focus or direct, makes perfect sense in this context. I imagine this also works in other romance languages. As an English speaker living in a foreign country, I am often hesitant to post on local lists because I am afraid (my own school baggage) of this exact type criticism. If the poster is a non-native speaker of English, this could be a very logical mistake.
> >
>
> I took this as a request for clarification, not a criticism.
>
> Alysia
>
>
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Tori Otero
To be clear
My feeling of not being good enough is internal and comes from my past.
Also I thought my posts would be attached to the earlier thread, sorry this
isn't the case.
Always learning Tori
My feeling of not being good enough is internal and comes from my past.
Also I thought my posts would be attached to the earlier thread, sorry this
isn't the case.
Always learning Tori
On Thursday, 22 November 2012, Victoria Otero wrote:
> Joyce said
>
> -=- That's what supporting someone looks like. -=-
>
> This was really useful, in helping me adjust my expectations about the
> different groups I'm part of. You articulated it really clearly, I kinda of
> knew but wouldn't have been able to explain it as well or think about as
> clearly. Now I'm able to make a better choice about how I respond in
> different situations.
>
> Sandra said
>
> -=- I want to make parents feel better too, but indirectly. :-)
> I want them to feel incredibly successful and important in their child's
> life. I want them to amaze themselves. I want them to see a wonderful
> parent reflected in the eyes of a happy child -=-
>
> I find the writing and discussion on Always Learning incredibly
> supportive, my outlook is much more positive, I can see possibilities and
> choices. I used to experience change as scary, now I embrace it, I feel
> confident about my ability to change. I can see how happy my son is, and
> my partner too, our connection is stronger, and we have so much fun sharing
> our lives together. I guess you have seen the transformation that happens
> in families before, I didn't expect it when we began our journey so I'm
> amazed :) We've been Unschooling for 3 years now and it's still early days
> but I know now that we are on the right path. I am aware that I haven't
> given examples of any of these changes, I think there is still a little
> anxiety about whether I'm good enough, writing on here asking for advice
> was the first step, maybe now I can start to share our lives a little more
> and celebrate with others.
>
> Alex Polikowsky said
>
> -=-One time when he was five I hit him and then I called my wonderful
> friend Schuyler , who posts here, and she told me to just decide to stop,
> to never do it again. I did just that. Instead of finding excuses in
> ":Oh I just lost it" or " I was mad and it was a mistake." I
> did consciously choose to never do it again and I never did. It was not
> that I thought it was OK before either! -=-
>
> Before you posted this I was looking back at how I had made changes in my
> own life so that I could offer something useful and tangible to my friend
> who I spoke about in my first post. What I came up with is was that I just
> made the decision to stop doing whatever it was that was damaging my
> relationship with my son and my partner. I don't really understand why this
> was so difficult. Part of me says that if it is that easy why do people
> have such a hard time doing it, but that is what it amounts to. I think the
> difference is hope, the belief that making a decision to stop is possible.
> This is one of the gifts the people on this list have given me.
>
> Thank you
>
>
>
>
>
>
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