Stealing
Sandra Dodd
Request for anonymous question about stealing:
===========================
Today we went to a mineral and gem store. Both [boys, one is around 7 and one is around 13] liked a piece of quartz that was around $4. I didn't buy it because we had tons of similar rocks at home.
When we got back... I saw a pretty rock and I realized [the older boy] stole it. It was a 50¢ item. I asked and he confessed that he "took" it.
I raised hell and read the shoplifting cases off the Internet to him.
I don't know how to deal with it. [Will kids usually] stop after being caught?
He has been very evasive when confronted in the past. I would say he lied and he is sneaky. I understand he was afraid of punishment. [The older child has been in school until just recently.]
Any suggestions how to deal with this? Would you please post on Always Learning without the names (just age)
===========================
My first thought was to go back and sneak the rock back where it goes. :-)
Yelling isn't the best thing. I don't know which shoplifting cases off the internet you read. I hope you didn't scare the poor kid too badly.
There have been some discussions here before, and maybe at UnschoolingDiscussion. If anyone feels like finding discussions in the archives on shoplifting or theft or evasion of the truth, links would be appreciated!
I saved some things on lying, here http://sandradodd.com/lies
but the boy in the story above told the truth, so that's good.
Someone new to unschooling can't have unschoolers' sensibilities or awarenesses or results. So the responses of unschoolers will be of limited use, when dealing with a schoolkid. That can't be helped. But maybe some of the ideas will be useful.
Sandra
===========================
Today we went to a mineral and gem store. Both [boys, one is around 7 and one is around 13] liked a piece of quartz that was around $4. I didn't buy it because we had tons of similar rocks at home.
When we got back... I saw a pretty rock and I realized [the older boy] stole it. It was a 50¢ item. I asked and he confessed that he "took" it.
I raised hell and read the shoplifting cases off the Internet to him.
I don't know how to deal with it. [Will kids usually] stop after being caught?
He has been very evasive when confronted in the past. I would say he lied and he is sneaky. I understand he was afraid of punishment. [The older child has been in school until just recently.]
Any suggestions how to deal with this? Would you please post on Always Learning without the names (just age)
===========================
My first thought was to go back and sneak the rock back where it goes. :-)
Yelling isn't the best thing. I don't know which shoplifting cases off the internet you read. I hope you didn't scare the poor kid too badly.
There have been some discussions here before, and maybe at UnschoolingDiscussion. If anyone feels like finding discussions in the archives on shoplifting or theft or evasion of the truth, links would be appreciated!
I saved some things on lying, here http://sandradodd.com/lies
but the boy in the story above told the truth, so that's good.
Someone new to unschooling can't have unschoolers' sensibilities or awarenesses or results. So the responses of unschoolers will be of limited use, when dealing with a schoolkid. That can't be helped. But maybe some of the ideas will be useful.
Sandra
Marina DeLuca-Howard
I am not sure about the finances but I would have not gone into a store
without the kids having their own spending money or a deal on what we were
buying first. The point of stores is shopping.
Rocks can be collected in nature, or admired in musuems.
That said my kids have never taken anything. We have had discussions though
over purchases. So, perhaps creating a safe space to argue a case is what's
needed here.
50cents is a pretty small amount of money. Maybe saying yes more often is
the way to go with reasonable requests? What about paying for the item?
Can the child do this or does he have no spending money?
Marina
without the kids having their own spending money or a deal on what we were
buying first. The point of stores is shopping.
Rocks can be collected in nature, or admired in musuems.
That said my kids have never taken anything. We have had discussions though
over purchases. So, perhaps creating a safe space to argue a case is what's
needed here.
50cents is a pretty small amount of money. Maybe saying yes more often is
the way to go with reasonable requests? What about paying for the item?
Can the child do this or does he have no spending money?
Marina
On 12 September 2012 23:50, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
> **
>
>
> Request for anonymous question about stealing:
>
> ===========================
>
> Today we went to a mineral and gem store. Both [boys, one is around 7 and
> one is around 13] liked a piece of quartz that was around $4. I didn't buy
> it because we had tons of similar rocks at home.
>
> When we got back... I saw a pretty rock and I realized [the older boy]
> stole it. It was a 50� item. I asked and he confessed that he "took" it.
>
> I raised hell and read the shoplifting cases off the Internet to him.
>
> I don't know how to deal with it. [Will kids usually] stop after being
> caught?
>
> He has been very evasive when confronted in the past. I would say he lied
> and he is sneaky. I understand he was afraid of punishment. [The older
> child has been in school until just recently.]
>
> Any suggestions how to deal with this? Would you please post on Always
> Learning without the names (just age)
> ===========================
>
> My first thought was to go back and sneak the rock back where it goes. :-)
>
> Yelling isn't the best thing. I don't know which shoplifting cases off the
> internet you read. I hope you didn't scare the poor kid too badly.
>
> There have been some discussions here before, and maybe at
> UnschoolingDiscussion. If anyone feels like finding discussions in the
> archives on shoplifting or theft or evasion of the truth, links would be
> appreciated!
>
> I saved some things on lying, here http://sandradodd.com/lies
> but the boy in the story above told the truth, so that's good.
>
> Someone new to unschooling can't have unschoolers' sensibilities or
> awarenesses or results. So the responses of unschoolers will be of limited
> use, when dealing with a schoolkid. That can't be helped. But maybe some of
> the ideas will be useful.
>
> Sandra
>
>
>
--
*Quis hic locus, quae regio, quae mundi plaga?*
What seas what shores what grey rocks and what islands
What water lapping the bow
And scent of pine and the woodthrush singing through the fog
What images return
<http://goog_2075824263>
http://surrendertorandomobfuscation.blogspot.ca/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Maybe saying yes more often is
the way to go with reasonable requests? What about paying for the item?
Can the child do this or does he have no spending money?-=-
The person can't answer these questions and still be anonymous. :-)
the way to go with reasonable requests? What about paying for the item?
Can the child do this or does he have no spending money?-=-
The person can't answer these questions and still be anonymous. :-)
Dawn
My son did something similar once when he was 5. I'd been shopping with my son & MIL at the mall when he presented his grandma with a gift of earrings shortly after we left a store. They were cheap, but still, he stole them. My MIL immediately brought him back to the store to apologize and return the earrings. At the time I thought it a bit harsh for a 5 yo, but he never shoplifted again! Looking back, I don't think it harsh much milder than the natural consequences of shoplifting. He learned his lesson and I'm glad she did that, I think it was very wise of her.
sheeboo2
-----Today we went to a mineral and gem store. Both [boys, one is around 7 and one is
around 13] liked a piece of quartz that was around $4. .------
This was your first mistake. A gem and mineral store is full of bright, colorful sparkly objects. For a lot of kids, a store like this is as rich with desire as a candy store, maybe even more so. It honestly seems cruel to plan a trip to such a place with young children and NOT plan on buying something.
It didn't have to be something expensive. Like Marina suggested, you could have agreed that each boy had $3 to spend beforehand. $6 is far less than defending a child in juvenile court and far less still than dealing with addictions or therapy or any other host of issues that are more likely to arise from children who grow up feeling unheard amidst a sense of lack.
---I didn't buy it because we had tons of similar rocks at home----
Strike two. In order to successfully unschool it is imperative that you accept that your children, their interests, desires, tastes, priorities, etc are not and will not (always, or even often) be the same as yours.
*You* are quite content with the rock collection you already have, that doesn't mean your children are too. How many shirts do you own? Surely you have more than enough shirts already. I'm guessing you have a few that are even the same color or made from the same kind of cloth. If, at a thrift store, you found a 50 cent shirt similar in some ways to one you already own and your husband said, "Pfff. You can't get that; you have enough shirts already," how would you feel/react?
Now, pretend that the shirt seemed really special. It had just the kind of embroidery around the neckline that you love because it reminds you of something your kind grandmother wore. It is a special shirt to you for very individual reasons, but you're still not allowed to buy it. There are two injuries here: 1) that something you found special wasn't validated by someone who loves you and 2) the reason wasn't even a real reason. If you could afford the gas to go to the store, I'm guessing 50 cents wasn't going to set you over the edge into financial ruin.
Some kids are collectors. When my daughter was younger, she often wanted to buy things that were just like, or very similar to things she already had. For her, that was part of the appeal: to have three of the exact same animal figures (one for me, one for her dad and one for her). She actually has a collection of polished blue stones, the kind you get at a gem store and fill a bulk bag with. More than once, she's filled the bag with all blue stones, which have become diamonds, pretend food, hardened lava piles, etc for all kinds of various games.
It is extremely disrespectful to tell someone else what may or may not hold meaning for them.
It's not my place to decide when my daughter is full.
-----When we got back... I saw a pretty rock and I realized [the older boy] stole it.
It was a 50¢ item. I asked and he confessed that he "took" it.-------
It seems like you believe there's a problem with his using the word "took" instead of "stole." I wonder if you hammered that point home to him?
Are you aware that in some places, an item has to be worth a certain amount of money before it is considered shoplifting? I believe that in nearly every state, taking an item worth less than a few hundred dollars is actually a misdemeanor, not a full-blown felony.
It could be, depending on the articles you read to him, that you were lying too. Trying to use fear to control his behavior. Behavior that you could have avoided in the first place if you were more attentive and proactive.
----I don't know how to deal with it. [Will kids usually] stop after being caught?----
I think it depends. It depends what motivates them to steal in the first place. Someone who is experiencing lack might well continue to try to fill the void however possible.
-----He has been very evasive when confronted in the past. I would say he lied and he
is sneaky. I understand he was afraid of punishment. [The older child has been
in school until just recently.]
Any suggestions how to deal with this?------
Make sure he has access to his own spending money. If you know that he likes to purchase something at stores, don't go shopping with him unless this is possible. Don't set him up to fail.
When he makes mistakes (as well as when he does't, obviously), be his partner. Be on his side. Learning happens best when a person is unafraid. You can't teach morality, like respect, these are learned through experience. Be respectful and moral in your interactions with him. Don't lie to him or conflate the truth dramatic flourishes to make a point. Would you rather he makes what you consider good choices because he is afraid of the punishment that will come if he doesn't, or would you prefer he makes choices based on thoughtfulness?
(Here's a hint: people who make choices based on fear of punishment will often find ways to be sneakier so they don't get caught.)
Brie
around 13] liked a piece of quartz that was around $4. .------
This was your first mistake. A gem and mineral store is full of bright, colorful sparkly objects. For a lot of kids, a store like this is as rich with desire as a candy store, maybe even more so. It honestly seems cruel to plan a trip to such a place with young children and NOT plan on buying something.
It didn't have to be something expensive. Like Marina suggested, you could have agreed that each boy had $3 to spend beforehand. $6 is far less than defending a child in juvenile court and far less still than dealing with addictions or therapy or any other host of issues that are more likely to arise from children who grow up feeling unheard amidst a sense of lack.
---I didn't buy it because we had tons of similar rocks at home----
Strike two. In order to successfully unschool it is imperative that you accept that your children, their interests, desires, tastes, priorities, etc are not and will not (always, or even often) be the same as yours.
*You* are quite content with the rock collection you already have, that doesn't mean your children are too. How many shirts do you own? Surely you have more than enough shirts already. I'm guessing you have a few that are even the same color or made from the same kind of cloth. If, at a thrift store, you found a 50 cent shirt similar in some ways to one you already own and your husband said, "Pfff. You can't get that; you have enough shirts already," how would you feel/react?
Now, pretend that the shirt seemed really special. It had just the kind of embroidery around the neckline that you love because it reminds you of something your kind grandmother wore. It is a special shirt to you for very individual reasons, but you're still not allowed to buy it. There are two injuries here: 1) that something you found special wasn't validated by someone who loves you and 2) the reason wasn't even a real reason. If you could afford the gas to go to the store, I'm guessing 50 cents wasn't going to set you over the edge into financial ruin.
Some kids are collectors. When my daughter was younger, she often wanted to buy things that were just like, or very similar to things she already had. For her, that was part of the appeal: to have three of the exact same animal figures (one for me, one for her dad and one for her). She actually has a collection of polished blue stones, the kind you get at a gem store and fill a bulk bag with. More than once, she's filled the bag with all blue stones, which have become diamonds, pretend food, hardened lava piles, etc for all kinds of various games.
It is extremely disrespectful to tell someone else what may or may not hold meaning for them.
It's not my place to decide when my daughter is full.
-----When we got back... I saw a pretty rock and I realized [the older boy] stole it.
It was a 50¢ item. I asked and he confessed that he "took" it.-------
It seems like you believe there's a problem with his using the word "took" instead of "stole." I wonder if you hammered that point home to him?
Are you aware that in some places, an item has to be worth a certain amount of money before it is considered shoplifting? I believe that in nearly every state, taking an item worth less than a few hundred dollars is actually a misdemeanor, not a full-blown felony.
It could be, depending on the articles you read to him, that you were lying too. Trying to use fear to control his behavior. Behavior that you could have avoided in the first place if you were more attentive and proactive.
----I don't know how to deal with it. [Will kids usually] stop after being caught?----
I think it depends. It depends what motivates them to steal in the first place. Someone who is experiencing lack might well continue to try to fill the void however possible.
-----He has been very evasive when confronted in the past. I would say he lied and he
is sneaky. I understand he was afraid of punishment. [The older child has been
in school until just recently.]
Any suggestions how to deal with this?------
Make sure he has access to his own spending money. If you know that he likes to purchase something at stores, don't go shopping with him unless this is possible. Don't set him up to fail.
When he makes mistakes (as well as when he does't, obviously), be his partner. Be on his side. Learning happens best when a person is unafraid. You can't teach morality, like respect, these are learned through experience. Be respectful and moral in your interactions with him. Don't lie to him or conflate the truth dramatic flourishes to make a point. Would you rather he makes what you consider good choices because he is afraid of the punishment that will come if he doesn't, or would you prefer he makes choices based on thoughtfulness?
(Here's a hint: people who make choices based on fear of punishment will often find ways to be sneakier so they don't get caught.)
Brie
Deb Lewis
***I didn't buy it because we had tons of similar rocks at home.***
So, they like rocks. Maybe you went into the store because you know they like rocks. And if they have tons of rocks at home they like to collect rocks. It sounds like you took rock collectors into a store that sells rocks and said “no.” I think expecting young collectors to enjoy the rocks without wanting a couple was unrealistic.
Be as generous with them as you can. Enjoy these times when a fifty cent rock or a four dollar rock makes their day. Make sure they have their own spending money in addition to your willingness to buy things for them.
Don’t go shopping if you really can’t afford to make a small purchase.
If he’s feeling needy enough to shoplift, spend more time with him. Do lots of things he likes to do. Have fun with him, be sweet with him. Be generous. Don’t treat him like a criminal.
***He has been very evasive when confronted in the past. I would say he lied and he is sneaky. I understand he was afraid of punishment. [The older child has been in school until just recently.]***
Raising hell is not a good way to encourage honesty and avoid sneakiness. Be calm. Make it right by taking the item back or paying for it. Remind him (without lecture or drama or dire warning) that lots of stores have security cameras.
Deb Lewis
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
So, they like rocks. Maybe you went into the store because you know they like rocks. And if they have tons of rocks at home they like to collect rocks. It sounds like you took rock collectors into a store that sells rocks and said “no.” I think expecting young collectors to enjoy the rocks without wanting a couple was unrealistic.
Be as generous with them as you can. Enjoy these times when a fifty cent rock or a four dollar rock makes their day. Make sure they have their own spending money in addition to your willingness to buy things for them.
Don’t go shopping if you really can’t afford to make a small purchase.
If he’s feeling needy enough to shoplift, spend more time with him. Do lots of things he likes to do. Have fun with him, be sweet with him. Be generous. Don’t treat him like a criminal.
***He has been very evasive when confronted in the past. I would say he lied and he is sneaky. I understand he was afraid of punishment. [The older child has been in school until just recently.]***
Raising hell is not a good way to encourage honesty and avoid sneakiness. Be calm. Make it right by taking the item back or paying for it. Remind him (without lecture or drama or dire warning) that lots of stores have security cameras.
Deb Lewis
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robin Bentley
I've never had this issue, so I'm afraid I don't have many suggestions
for dealing with the aftermath. But I do have a couple of ideas about
prevention for the future.
just about anything she collected, it didn't mean my daughter saw it
that way.
With rocks, for instance, if you're a collector, you'll see
differences in color, texture, shape. If it was important to her to
add to her collection, I tried to find a way to get it for her,
without putting my judgment on whether it looked like something she
already had.
I had no idea if collecting those rocks might lead to some all-
consuming passion or career down the road, but I was willing to help
her with her all-consuming passion of collecting rocks, *then*.
Sometimes kids take things because their parents think what they like
isn't important or worthy; it hurts not to have their wants taken
seriously. I had a friend who would only let her daughter's dad buy
her Playmobil for Christmas or birthdays, so she always had to wait.
When the girl would go to a home where Playmobil was collected happily
and often, she'd take something.
helpful. If he feels what's important to him isn't important to you
(whether you buy something or not), it's not likely to make the impact
you want it to.
neither feels trusted nor does he trust that his needs will be met.
This can happen due to school experiences, but also from what happens
at home.
If he's going to be home from now on, trust will take time to rebuild
as he deschools. Talking with him (not threatening, not yelling, not
scaring him) about the real consequences might help over the long
term. But being proactive right now will help, too.
Really try to understand his wish for one more rock. Or whatever it
is. If you can't afford it, make a plan to buy it. If you can afford
it, why not buy it? Seeing his interests as important will go along
way to stopping stealing or lying.
Robin B.
for dealing with the aftermath. But I do have a couple of ideas about
prevention for the future.
>Just because *I* thought we had similar rocks or small toys or well,
> Today we went to a mineral and gem store. Both [boys, one is around
> 7 and one is around 13] liked a piece of quartz that was around $4.
> I didn't buy it because we had tons of similar rocks at home.
just about anything she collected, it didn't mean my daughter saw it
that way.
With rocks, for instance, if you're a collector, you'll see
differences in color, texture, shape. If it was important to her to
add to her collection, I tried to find a way to get it for her,
without putting my judgment on whether it looked like something she
already had.
I had no idea if collecting those rocks might lead to some all-
consuming passion or career down the road, but I was willing to help
her with her all-consuming passion of collecting rocks, *then*.
Sometimes kids take things because their parents think what they like
isn't important or worthy; it hurts not to have their wants taken
seriously. I had a friend who would only let her daughter's dad buy
her Playmobil for Christmas or birthdays, so she always had to wait.
When the girl would go to a home where Playmobil was collected happily
and often, she'd take something.
>I don't think "raising hell" or trying to scare him is going to be
> I raised hell and read the shoplifting cases off the Internet to him.
helpful. If he feels what's important to him isn't important to you
(whether you buy something or not), it's not likely to make the impact
you want it to.
>It depends.
>
> I don't know how to deal with it. [Will kids usually] stop after
> being caught?
>Hmm. If this kind of thing has been going on for a long time, he
> He has been very evasive when confronted in the past. I would say he
> lied and he is sneaky. I understand he was afraid of punishment.
> [The older child has been in school until just recently.]
neither feels trusted nor does he trust that his needs will be met.
This can happen due to school experiences, but also from what happens
at home.
If he's going to be home from now on, trust will take time to rebuild
as he deschools. Talking with him (not threatening, not yelling, not
scaring him) about the real consequences might help over the long
term. But being proactive right now will help, too.
Really try to understand his wish for one more rock. Or whatever it
is. If you can't afford it, make a plan to buy it. If you can afford
it, why not buy it? Seeing his interests as important will go along
way to stopping stealing or lying.
Robin B.
Deb Lewis
***The older child has been in school until just recently***
As tempting as it might be to try to fix what you see wrong in him, don’t do it. If he’s been in school then people have been trying to fix and change and mold and shape him enough.
Be sweet and understanding and sympathetic and don’t expect a schooled kid to be the same as an unschooled kid.
Someone already wrote, “don’t set him up to fail” and I think that’s so important I’m putting it here again. He can’t be different than he is. Don’t expect him to be what he can’t be.
Deb Lewis
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
As tempting as it might be to try to fix what you see wrong in him, don’t do it. If he’s been in school then people have been trying to fix and change and mold and shape him enough.
Be sweet and understanding and sympathetic and don’t expect a schooled kid to be the same as an unschooled kid.
Someone already wrote, “don’t set him up to fail” and I think that’s so important I’m putting it here again. He can’t be different than he is. Don’t expect him to be what he can’t be.
Deb Lewis
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kimberly Sims
~"> He has been very evasive when confronted in the past. I would say he
neither feels trusted nor does he trust that his needs will be met.
This can happen due to school experiences, but also from what happens
at home."~
This reminded me of a time when we first began to unschool my then 10 year old
daughter "tested" me to see if I was serious about the new path we were heading
down. As much as I can't stand to write this now, I was the mom who cried(and
yelled) over spilt milk. Maybe your son took an item that was worth less money
(then what he could have taken) to see what you would do. Then again maybe he
didn't intentionally steal it for that reason but you did send him a very clear
message of how you would react, you "raised hell".
You can't take your actions back that is why being a mindful parent is discussed
so much on this list. This is a great time to replay what happened over in your
mind to see how you could have handled it better for next time(because there
will be lots more next times and they will make you laugh that you raised hell
over stealing a 50 cent rock). Like in another thread there are always more
choices then A or B. Now is a good time to come up with C-Z.
Here is a page that helped me tons when first wrapping my mind around being the
parent I always wanted to be. All the way down there is a sound bite of Sandra
about having a peaceful home that is priceless.
http://sandradodd.com/parentingpeacefully
Kim
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> lied and he is sneaky. I understand he was afraid of punishment.Hmm. If this kind of thing has been going on for a long time, he
> [The older child has been in school until just recently.]
neither feels trusted nor does he trust that his needs will be met.
This can happen due to school experiences, but also from what happens
at home."~
This reminded me of a time when we first began to unschool my then 10 year old
daughter "tested" me to see if I was serious about the new path we were heading
down. As much as I can't stand to write this now, I was the mom who cried(and
yelled) over spilt milk. Maybe your son took an item that was worth less money
(then what he could have taken) to see what you would do. Then again maybe he
didn't intentionally steal it for that reason but you did send him a very clear
message of how you would react, you "raised hell".
You can't take your actions back that is why being a mindful parent is discussed
so much on this list. This is a great time to replay what happened over in your
mind to see how you could have handled it better for next time(because there
will be lots more next times and they will make you laugh that you raised hell
over stealing a 50 cent rock). Like in another thread there are always more
choices then A or B. Now is a good time to come up with C-Z.
Here is a page that helped me tons when first wrapping my mind around being the
parent I always wanted to be. All the way down there is a sound bite of Sandra
about having a peaceful home that is priceless.
http://sandradodd.com/parentingpeacefully
Kim
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]