Illiteracy
keetry
I was in a discussion about how unschoolers learn to read recently with some friends. One friend asked, if people can learn to read without instruction, how does illiteracy happen?
The only thing I could come up with is that some people's brains may not work in way so that they could ever read well. I don't really know but I thought you all might have some ideas.
Alysia
The only thing I could come up with is that some people's brains may not work in way so that they could ever read well. I don't really know but I thought you all might have some ideas.
Alysia
Sandra Dodd
Some illiterates have been shamed so much by school that they feel ill when they see the printed word.
Some weren't around much print at home, and so it wasn't a useful or common skill in their family.
A few might not be at all able to read for some brain-damage or brain-problem reason, but I think those are very, VERY rare. Rare like fewer than one in a million.
People who are traumatized and shamed, though, can learn not to learn LOTS of things. School proves that by graduating kids who can't read and aren't sure where they live on the planet. Just having maps and globes around would solve that IF the kids didn't shut down and feel that learning things was a lose, for them, and a win for the teacher.
It can come from an antagonistic relationship with people who read, or who want them to read.
There are also statistics (you might be able to find them) about reading levels in different times and places, and it doesn't correlate with the availability of school the way one might think it would.
One of the highest literacy rates I've seen was in stories of mid-19th century Hawaii.
So when a nation is illiterate, a push to provide materials and assistance can make a stark improvement. But in an already-very-literate society such as the U.S., a child who would've figured it out peacefully might be slow in school, and be labelled a non-reader, which is a horrid thing, but happening all around us.
Sandra
Some weren't around much print at home, and so it wasn't a useful or common skill in their family.
A few might not be at all able to read for some brain-damage or brain-problem reason, but I think those are very, VERY rare. Rare like fewer than one in a million.
People who are traumatized and shamed, though, can learn not to learn LOTS of things. School proves that by graduating kids who can't read and aren't sure where they live on the planet. Just having maps and globes around would solve that IF the kids didn't shut down and feel that learning things was a lose, for them, and a win for the teacher.
It can come from an antagonistic relationship with people who read, or who want them to read.
There are also statistics (you might be able to find them) about reading levels in different times and places, and it doesn't correlate with the availability of school the way one might think it would.
One of the highest literacy rates I've seen was in stories of mid-19th century Hawaii.
So when a nation is illiterate, a push to provide materials and assistance can make a stark improvement. But in an already-very-literate society such as the U.S., a child who would've figured it out peacefully might be slow in school, and be labelled a non-reader, which is a horrid thing, but happening all around us.
Sandra
Kristin Elkoshairi
I've found that, at least here in Egypt, people in certain situations are not encouraged to read if it won't directly help them in how they will make money/support themselves. I met a woman that from a very young age was a housekeeper/maid/cook. She had maybe one or two years of school then dropped out because she was old enough to go to work to help support her parents. She was groomed to work in people's homes and never had a reason to learn to read and never had anyone around her to encourage her to read even for pleasure. Recently, she finally got tired of not being able to read signs and packages and sought out help to learn. If by some chance she had the desire to read her access to materials was limited.
Education here is not totally free. The government schools still require the students to purchase a small amount of materials to attend. Some families are too poor to send their children to school and if the parents are lacking in reading skills then the children will follow.
At the end of the day, many people are simply too tired to pursue anything outside of the bare minimum to survive.
Kristin Elkoshairi
Education here is not totally free. The government schools still require the students to purchase a small amount of materials to attend. Some families are too poor to send their children to school and if the parents are lacking in reading skills then the children will follow.
At the end of the day, many people are simply too tired to pursue anything outside of the bare minimum to survive.
Kristin Elkoshairi
On Aug 17, 2012, at 5:24 PM August/17/12, keetry wrote:
> I was in a discussion about how unschoolers learn to read recently with some friends. One friend asked, if people can learn to read without instruction, how does illiteracy happen?
>
> The only thing I could come up with is that some people's brains may not work in way so that they could ever read well. I don't really know but I thought you all might have some ideas.
>
> Alysia
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Karen
> The only thing I could come up with is that some people's brains may not work in way so that they could ever read well. I don't really know but I thought you all might have some ideas.My grandmother lived to 99, and never learned to read. People would ask me how that was possible, and I would joke that she was a stubborn woman. I was only half joking, and that only told a small piece of her story.
She was French Canadian. She grew up in rural Quebec, one of 13 children. She had 7 of her own. I am sure that during the first half of her life, survival was more important than reading. But, not reading became part of her identity - a part she and her family held on to, tightly.
I remember as a young girl visiting her. She always lived with one of her children, and there was always a large group of people in any of the homes she lived. We could often be found sitting in the kitchen in chairs in a big circle talking. Most of the people spoke french. One of my aunts would translate for my mom and I. (Talk about stubborn...my mom lived most of her life in Montreal, and never learned to speak french...but that's another story.)
On one visit I was particularly excited because I had learned a few french words in school (I grew up in Ontario), and I had learned the french alphabet. I sat on my grandma's lap, eager to share my surprise, and proceeded to proudly sing the french alphabet to her and to the others who were gathered around us. Aften I finished singing, the room was silent. I looked around at the faces. Many looked stunned and somewhat terrified. My aunt quickly took me aside and said, "You know your grandma can't read, don't you?" I looked at my grandma, who quickly looked down at the floor. I felt terrible, but in hindsight, I was just singing a song. It could have been about anything. And, if my grandmother had liked it, maybe she would have sung it with me. If she and everyone in the room weren't so attached to her illiteracy, perhaps she would have eventually learned to read. She died with a memory most people at the age of 40 would envy. She could tell you the year and month of every job she ever had. She was quick as a whip!
On a side note...like my mom, I never took up french either. It is stunning what a room full of negativity can do to learning.
There's a great article about a man who learned to read at 96. He wrote a book two years later. I thought of my grandmother when I read it. You can find it here: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/22/author-james-arrudra-henr_n_1107528.html
Karen.
Sandra Dodd
-=-On a side note...like my mom, I never took up french either. It is stunning what a room full of negativity can do to learning. -=-
I grew up in northern New Mexico, around a lot of speakers of a backwater kind of Spanish left over from Conquistadors and other early settlers. But it was everywhere, and there were phrases and words that were part of everyone's everyday life.
Speaking Spanish at school was forbidden, among the children (in the 1960's; bilingual ed came along in the early 1970's). We still heard teachers and other workers around the school do it, but kids would've been in trouble for it. I saw a kid get his tongue soaped for saying something in Spanish one day.
But as I got older, I also knew that it was a secret code not intended for anglos to learn, and even though some of the Hispanic and "Spanish surnamed" kids didn't speak it, the Spanish classes were harsh for anglos to take, and accents were teased horribly, so I didn't try. I can understand a fair amount, and answer in English, when I'm up in that neighborhood.
Forty years ago (I can't speak for it anymore; old folks die and things change) there were LOTS and lots of grandparents who had no English at all, but who couldn't read Spanish. That had been going on there for a few hundred years. Lots of Spanish without "literacy." Church was in Latin until the 1960's. People lived in little mountain towns and farmed, and had long, long been cut off from any outside influences. Many of the kids who did take Spanish classes already spoke the local Spanish, but were in there to learn to read and write (in their native language, already having learned to do so in English).
Just a data-clump, not "the answer."
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I grew up in northern New Mexico, around a lot of speakers of a backwater kind of Spanish left over from Conquistadors and other early settlers. But it was everywhere, and there were phrases and words that were part of everyone's everyday life.
Speaking Spanish at school was forbidden, among the children (in the 1960's; bilingual ed came along in the early 1970's). We still heard teachers and other workers around the school do it, but kids would've been in trouble for it. I saw a kid get his tongue soaped for saying something in Spanish one day.
But as I got older, I also knew that it was a secret code not intended for anglos to learn, and even though some of the Hispanic and "Spanish surnamed" kids didn't speak it, the Spanish classes were harsh for anglos to take, and accents were teased horribly, so I didn't try. I can understand a fair amount, and answer in English, when I'm up in that neighborhood.
Forty years ago (I can't speak for it anymore; old folks die and things change) there were LOTS and lots of grandparents who had no English at all, but who couldn't read Spanish. That had been going on there for a few hundred years. Lots of Spanish without "literacy." Church was in Latin until the 1960's. People lived in little mountain towns and farmed, and had long, long been cut off from any outside influences. Many of the kids who did take Spanish classes already spoke the local Spanish, but were in there to learn to read and write (in their native language, already having learned to do so in English).
Just a data-clump, not "the answer."
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Meredith
"keetry" <keetry@...> wrote:
When I worked with an adult literacy program, the biggest issue besides shame was that people had been taught that one had to "sound out" words to learn to read, and some people can't do that - can't use phonetic information to decode until after they've learned to read - and memorizing words isn't necessarily encouraged, depending on the teacher. We had to reassure people that it wasn't cheating to memorize, and that school had taught them all wrong.
Ray was one of those people who couldn't decode, so I got to see first hand what it looked like - he would sound his way through a word, and then forget it before he finished sounding out the next. The act of decoding uses up too much short term memory or something. Some kids can learn to sound out beautifully with no retention at all - which is why schools teach "reading comprehension" as well as "reading"; in school, they're two different things.
---Meredith
>> The only thing I could come up with is that some people's brains may not work in way so that they could ever read well.**************
When I worked with an adult literacy program, the biggest issue besides shame was that people had been taught that one had to "sound out" words to learn to read, and some people can't do that - can't use phonetic information to decode until after they've learned to read - and memorizing words isn't necessarily encouraged, depending on the teacher. We had to reassure people that it wasn't cheating to memorize, and that school had taught them all wrong.
Ray was one of those people who couldn't decode, so I got to see first hand what it looked like - he would sound his way through a word, and then forget it before he finished sounding out the next. The act of decoding uses up too much short term memory or something. Some kids can learn to sound out beautifully with no retention at all - which is why schools teach "reading comprehension" as well as "reading"; in school, they're two different things.
---Meredith
Joyce Fetteroll
On Aug 17, 2012, at 11:24 AM, keetry wrote:
There are factors that must be present in order to read. Like having printed matter that someone wants to read. Like being in a supportive environment. Like being surrounded by natural connections between spoken and written words.
There are factors that can get in the way of reading. Like shame, punishment, pressure. If someone who can't developmentally read until they are older is shamed and pressured by teachers, they can withdraw and stop trying. They can convince themselves they can't read.
Outside of school, if someone doesn't have the support and things they want to read, it's not likely they'll figure it out.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> One friend asked, if people can learn to read without instruction, how does illiteracy happen?"Without instruction" doesn't mean learning to read without anything.
There are factors that must be present in order to read. Like having printed matter that someone wants to read. Like being in a supportive environment. Like being surrounded by natural connections between spoken and written words.
There are factors that can get in the way of reading. Like shame, punishment, pressure. If someone who can't developmentally read until they are older is shamed and pressured by teachers, they can withdraw and stop trying. They can convince themselves they can't read.
Outside of school, if someone doesn't have the support and things they want to read, it's not likely they'll figure it out.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
<<<<"Without instruction" doesn't mean learning to read without anything.>>>>
I hope some are not reading about unschooling and thinking that kids will earn to read without anything.
I am sure there are children that will learn and it may seem like it was without anything.
But if you look close you will see that the child was surrounded by print and had access to all kinds of texts and was read to and more.
When I write that my son learned to read playing an online game ( Roblox). It was not like he was left alone playing it and voila!!!!! He is reading.
Since he was little we had many book, we played in the computer together, we had games, magazines, lots of picture books, magnetic letters, foam letters, puzzles.
All that I played with him.
When he started playing Roblox I sat with him for hours and read to him, message the others for him, explored Roblox with him.
Then he started typing while I spelled ... and within a year or so he was reading and typing. But I was there, for hours and days, typing, spelling, reading.
Not to teach him, not quizzing or sounding out words with intent to get him to read.
But as help, as a partner.
I answered his question, I helped when he asked.
It was not without anything but it was not with instruction.
The intention was to help him play this game he loved. The added benefit, well one of them and there were many, was that he learned to read.
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I hope some are not reading about unschooling and thinking that kids will earn to read without anything.
I am sure there are children that will learn and it may seem like it was without anything.
But if you look close you will see that the child was surrounded by print and had access to all kinds of texts and was read to and more.
When I write that my son learned to read playing an online game ( Roblox). It was not like he was left alone playing it and voila!!!!! He is reading.
Since he was little we had many book, we played in the computer together, we had games, magazines, lots of picture books, magnetic letters, foam letters, puzzles.
All that I played with him.
When he started playing Roblox I sat with him for hours and read to him, message the others for him, explored Roblox with him.
Then he started typing while I spelled ... and within a year or so he was reading and typing. But I was there, for hours and days, typing, spelling, reading.
Not to teach him, not quizzing or sounding out words with intent to get him to read.
But as help, as a partner.
I answered his question, I helped when he asked.
It was not without anything but it was not with instruction.
The intention was to help him play this game he loved. The added benefit, well one of them and there were many, was that he learned to read.
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
teresa
I have an example of how it happening in school *with* instruction, maybe partly because of it.
I had a middle school student who went to one of the best respected elementary schools in the county, got tons and tons of interventions, had tutors, has a brain that worked just fine, had very active parents who were readers, and couldn't read or write passably.
His efforts toward doing both were so laborious and quirky that they often led to more confusion, exhaustion, and resentment. He would happily sit and listen to another person reading, and he often sensed information that was in texts (using pictures and other clues), but if you sat down with him to do reading instruction, he would become dejected, distracted, sometimes angry.
The thing was, he was a confident, interested, engaged kid. His brain was busy all the time with all kinds of ideas and wonderings. He used other means to get the information he needed--he made friends with the park rangers to learn about local flora, fauna, and geology--favorite topics. He watched a lot of YouTube, listened to a lot of music, easily picked the brains of parents, teachers, other perceived "experts." He was actually a lot more skilled than most at getting information from other sources.
I don't know what his earlier years were like, and I do know that he wasn't OK with not being a reader (no wonder, with so much pressure and focus on his lack). But I can tell you that he was so busy learning in all the other ways he was good at that it seemed like he hardly had time to put in doing something that was so difficult for him. There was probably some avoidance there, but there was also a pretty sensible--in the big picture--method of focusing and playing up on his easiest and favorite forms of gaining access to the information he wanted.
Teresa
I had a middle school student who went to one of the best respected elementary schools in the county, got tons and tons of interventions, had tutors, has a brain that worked just fine, had very active parents who were readers, and couldn't read or write passably.
His efforts toward doing both were so laborious and quirky that they often led to more confusion, exhaustion, and resentment. He would happily sit and listen to another person reading, and he often sensed information that was in texts (using pictures and other clues), but if you sat down with him to do reading instruction, he would become dejected, distracted, sometimes angry.
The thing was, he was a confident, interested, engaged kid. His brain was busy all the time with all kinds of ideas and wonderings. He used other means to get the information he needed--he made friends with the park rangers to learn about local flora, fauna, and geology--favorite topics. He watched a lot of YouTube, listened to a lot of music, easily picked the brains of parents, teachers, other perceived "experts." He was actually a lot more skilled than most at getting information from other sources.
I don't know what his earlier years were like, and I do know that he wasn't OK with not being a reader (no wonder, with so much pressure and focus on his lack). But I can tell you that he was so busy learning in all the other ways he was good at that it seemed like he hardly had time to put in doing something that was so difficult for him. There was probably some avoidance there, but there was also a pretty sensible--in the big picture--method of focusing and playing up on his easiest and favorite forms of gaining access to the information he wanted.
Teresa
--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...> wrote:
>
>
> On Aug 17, 2012, at 11:24 AM, keetry wrote:
>
> > One friend asked, if people can learn to read without instruction, how does illiteracy happen?
>
> "Without instruction" doesn't mean learning to read without anything.
>
> There are factors that must be present in order to read. Like having printed matter that someone wants to read. Like being in a supportive environment. Like being surrounded by natural connections between spoken and written words.
>
> There are factors that can get in the way of reading. Like shame, punishment, pressure. If someone who can't developmentally read until they are older is shamed and pressured by teachers, they can withdraw and stop trying. They can convince themselves they can't read.
>
> Outside of school, if someone doesn't have the support and things they want to read, it's not likely they'll figure it out.
>
> Joyce
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Sandra Dodd
-=- It was not without anything but it was not with instruction.
The intention was to help him play this game he loved. The added benefit, well one of them and there were many, was that he learned to read.-=-
Ditto here.
http://sandradodd.com/r/sandra
That has a photo of some of the actual materials my kids were using when they learned to read. :-)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
The intention was to help him play this game he loved. The added benefit, well one of them and there were many, was that he learned to read.-=-
Ditto here.
http://sandradodd.com/r/sandra
That has a photo of some of the actual materials my kids were using when they learned to read. :-)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
keetry
== <<<<"Without instruction" doesn't mean learning to read without anything.>>>>
They've asked me if I read to my kids. I have and do. I read to them well after they are able to read themselves if they want me to. They read while playing video games and doing things on the computer while I am right there to help them with anything they need.
I don't know how to answer the fear of illiteracy question. I mean, if you do it (unschool), you will see that it works but some people are afraid. I guess that's normal when first learning about unschooling. It took several years before I stopped having those fears creep into my thoughts every once in a while. I can finally say that after about 9 years of reading about, thinking about and doing unschooling those fears don't enter my mind anymore.
Alysia
>I think this is where my friends are getting stuck. I have one friend who seems very interested in unschooling. She says she definitely wants to homeschool. (Her kids are very young yet. The oldest is just 2.) She seems to have this misconception that unschooling means leaving kids to do things all on their own even though I've told her many times that it's not like that at all. She says, "I know you do a lot with your kids, but..."
>
> I hope some are not reading about unschooling and thinking that kids will [l]earn (sic) to read without anything. ==
They've asked me if I read to my kids. I have and do. I read to them well after they are able to read themselves if they want me to. They read while playing video games and doing things on the computer while I am right there to help them with anything they need.
I don't know how to answer the fear of illiteracy question. I mean, if you do it (unschool), you will see that it works but some people are afraid. I guess that's normal when first learning about unschooling. It took several years before I stopped having those fears creep into my thoughts every once in a while. I can finally say that after about 9 years of reading about, thinking about and doing unschooling those fears don't enter my mind anymore.
Alysia
Sandra Dodd
-=- I guess that's normal when first learning about unschooling. It took several years before I stopped having those fears creep into my thoughts every once in a while.-=-
Me, too.
-=-I can finally say that after about 9 years of reading about, thinking about and doing unschooling those fears don't enter my mind anymore. -=-
I'm guessing (feel free to confirm or deny, as applicable, if you wish) that what happened in the nine years that helped most was seeing your children learning, and being happy.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Me, too.
-=-I can finally say that after about 9 years of reading about, thinking about and doing unschooling those fears don't enter my mind anymore. -=-
I'm guessing (feel free to confirm or deny, as applicable, if you wish) that what happened in the nine years that helped most was seeing your children learning, and being happy.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Meredith
"teresa" <treesock@...> wrote:
Middle school is anywhere from ages 9-14 - and even at the upward end of that range it's possible he wasn't ready to read yet, especially for a boy. That's where reading education falls down hard, by not recognizing that the range of ages when kids are "ready" is incredibly broad. Environmental factors matter a lot, but they can't overcome the vagaries of human development where reading is concerned. It's not a matter or intelligence, it's a matter of development in more than one system - when some systems develop faster than others that can result in a kid who isn't ready to read until early adulthood.
---Meredith
> I had a middle school student who went to one of the best respected elementary schools in the county, got tons and tons of interventions, had tutors, has a brain that worked just fine, had very active parents who were readers, and couldn't read or write passably.***************
Middle school is anywhere from ages 9-14 - and even at the upward end of that range it's possible he wasn't ready to read yet, especially for a boy. That's where reading education falls down hard, by not recognizing that the range of ages when kids are "ready" is incredibly broad. Environmental factors matter a lot, but they can't overcome the vagaries of human development where reading is concerned. It's not a matter or intelligence, it's a matter of development in more than one system - when some systems develop faster than others that can result in a kid who isn't ready to read until early adulthood.
---Meredith
Sandra Dodd
-=-It's not a matter or intelligence, it's a matter of development in more than one system - when some systems develop faster than others that can result in a kid who isn't ready to read until early adulthood. -=-
And that same kid might be already a professional musician or artist or construction whiz or math genius.
http://sandradodd.com/intelligences
Some combinations are necessary for some things. Reading is a little mysterious. Truck driving, however, takes spatial and kinesthetic. Dance takes spatial, kinesthetic and musical. And all like that. A human can be quite competent without reading, in regular-world. There were illiterate kings back in the day, who didn't need to read. They had people to do that for them. :-)
There were "illiterate" (in a way, it seems, looking back) businessmen who could make enough money to hire people to do their typing, and typing came to involve writing, and knowing grammar, spelling and mechanics of writing, and all the rules about how to set up various kinds of letters and invoices and all... And those were the lowly clerks and secretaries.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
And that same kid might be already a professional musician or artist or construction whiz or math genius.
http://sandradodd.com/intelligences
Some combinations are necessary for some things. Reading is a little mysterious. Truck driving, however, takes spatial and kinesthetic. Dance takes spatial, kinesthetic and musical. And all like that. A human can be quite competent without reading, in regular-world. There were illiterate kings back in the day, who didn't need to read. They had people to do that for them. :-)
There were "illiterate" (in a way, it seems, looking back) businessmen who could make enough money to hire people to do their typing, and typing came to involve writing, and knowing grammar, spelling and mechanics of writing, and all the rules about how to set up various kinds of letters and invoices and all... And those were the lowly clerks and secretaries.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
noni.sampson
Hi,
I am new here and have been reading, and trying, many of the unschooling principles although it is very early days here as we have only had the children home from school for a few weeks. My middle daughter is a bright, active child, and my younger boy is just a joy. We have a close relationship that involves lots of me reading to them (they bring me books all the time to read). My eldest daughter is a voracious reader and has been reading all sorts of books from a young age. The other two were labelled as slow readers at school, placed in remedial programs and generally made to feel inferior (not just by teachers but by other children who ridiculed them for not being able to read what they were reading or not being on the same reading level as everyone else). Now they often say to me "I can't read" or "I'll never be able to read those books, they are too hard". It is only now that I can clearly see the damage that the school (and my husband and I) have done to them by pushing them to read before they were ready and allowing them to be shamed and perhaps (without realising it) allowing comparisons to their big sister.
If I could begin again I would unschool them from the beginning of their life (actually I am surprised by how much the general philosophy informs me in my parenting and am flabbergasted that I never made the connections to school). I am trying to undo many years of damage that, if I had trusted my early instincts rather than give into fear, would never of happened.
If I could say anything to anyone who has young children it would be listen to Sandra and the others on this site, read books on unschooling, watch your children and trust yourself - don't listen to the little voices in your head (which are probably your own school demons) telling you that it would be better to school your children.
Regards, Noni
Oh, and if anyone has any advice in regards to my younger ones - I am open to any suggestions (other than love them, and read to them when they ask, and let them be)
I am new here and have been reading, and trying, many of the unschooling principles although it is very early days here as we have only had the children home from school for a few weeks. My middle daughter is a bright, active child, and my younger boy is just a joy. We have a close relationship that involves lots of me reading to them (they bring me books all the time to read). My eldest daughter is a voracious reader and has been reading all sorts of books from a young age. The other two were labelled as slow readers at school, placed in remedial programs and generally made to feel inferior (not just by teachers but by other children who ridiculed them for not being able to read what they were reading or not being on the same reading level as everyone else). Now they often say to me "I can't read" or "I'll never be able to read those books, they are too hard". It is only now that I can clearly see the damage that the school (and my husband and I) have done to them by pushing them to read before they were ready and allowing them to be shamed and perhaps (without realising it) allowing comparisons to their big sister.
If I could begin again I would unschool them from the beginning of their life (actually I am surprised by how much the general philosophy informs me in my parenting and am flabbergasted that I never made the connections to school). I am trying to undo many years of damage that, if I had trusted my early instincts rather than give into fear, would never of happened.
If I could say anything to anyone who has young children it would be listen to Sandra and the others on this site, read books on unschooling, watch your children and trust yourself - don't listen to the little voices in your head (which are probably your own school demons) telling you that it would be better to school your children.
Regards, Noni
Oh, and if anyone has any advice in regards to my younger ones - I am open to any suggestions (other than love them, and read to them when they ask, and let them be)
Sandra Dodd
Robin Bentley
> There were "illiterate" (in a way, it seems, looking back)That's my brother! He was a bank Vice-President when he retired and
> businessmen who could make enough money to hire people to do their
> typing, and typing came to involve writing, and knowing grammar,
> spelling and mechanics of writing, and all the rules about how to
> set up various kinds of letters and invoices and all... And those
> were the lowly clerks and secretaries.
>
had a secretary from the time he started working. He admits his worst
subject was English in school. I had no idea he could barely put a
sentence together with appropriate grammar and punctuation until he
started writing me emails a few years ago!
Robin B.
Meredith
"noni.sampson" <noni.sampson@...> wrote:
First, give them time. My stepson had homeschooling and public school before he finally got a chance to unschool at 13. He would say things like "I hate learning" and "I never want to learn anything again". A year later, when Learn Nothing Day came around, he was able to joke: "the only way to spend a day learning nothing is to go to school!"
It also helps, with reading, to step way back from all the messages you've heard over the years. Like, there's an idea that reading is about reading books for pleasure and a "good reader" is someone who enjoys reading. It's not true! Reading is a useful set of skills, like (in the US) driving a car. I drive almost every day, but I don't really enjoy it - unlike my brother, who is into amateur racing. My daughter doesn't really read for pleasure, even though she's been able to read since she was 4 - it's a useful skill for her, but she'd much rather look at images than read words. She's a big fan of shows and movies and graphic novels.
And that's another one of the common messages about reading, that it's superior to watching, and that print books are superior to graphic works. It surprised me the first time I tried to read a graphic novel with my daughter - it was harder than I expected! I had to learn a whole different way to take in a story, and at first I missed a lot because I'd read the words and not spend enough time looking at the pictures (and then I got my first manga experience... I still have to check the "how to read this book" diagrams now and then to read those).
---Meredith
> Now they often say to me "I can't read" or "I'll never be able to read those books, they are too hard".****************
First, give them time. My stepson had homeschooling and public school before he finally got a chance to unschool at 13. He would say things like "I hate learning" and "I never want to learn anything again". A year later, when Learn Nothing Day came around, he was able to joke: "the only way to spend a day learning nothing is to go to school!"
It also helps, with reading, to step way back from all the messages you've heard over the years. Like, there's an idea that reading is about reading books for pleasure and a "good reader" is someone who enjoys reading. It's not true! Reading is a useful set of skills, like (in the US) driving a car. I drive almost every day, but I don't really enjoy it - unlike my brother, who is into amateur racing. My daughter doesn't really read for pleasure, even though she's been able to read since she was 4 - it's a useful skill for her, but she'd much rather look at images than read words. She's a big fan of shows and movies and graphic novels.
And that's another one of the common messages about reading, that it's superior to watching, and that print books are superior to graphic works. It surprised me the first time I tried to read a graphic novel with my daughter - it was harder than I expected! I had to learn a whole different way to take in a story, and at first I missed a lot because I'd read the words and not spend enough time looking at the pictures (and then I got my first manga experience... I still have to check the "how to read this book" diagrams now and then to read those).
---Meredith
Sandra Dodd
-=-First, give them time. My stepson had homeschooling and public school before he finally got a chance to unschool at 13. He would say things like "I hate learning" and "I never want to learn anything again". A year later, when Learn Nothing Day came around, he was able to joke: "the only way to spend a day learning nothing is to go to school!" -=-
And that happened because of his chance to DEschool, because without really laying off the academic pressure and overlay, kids can continue to resist, and remain shut off from their curiosity and willingness to wonder.
http://sandradodd.com/wonder
Without wonder�a combination of curiosity and acceptance of the unknown as a potential friend�natural learning won't flow.
(Maybe I should go put that phrase on the wonder page, so if you see it there, I didn't lamely steal a quote from myself like I try to do every day at Just Add Light...)
Sandra
http://justaddlightandstir.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
And that happened because of his chance to DEschool, because without really laying off the academic pressure and overlay, kids can continue to resist, and remain shut off from their curiosity and willingness to wonder.
http://sandradodd.com/wonder
Without wonder�a combination of curiosity and acceptance of the unknown as a potential friend�natural learning won't flow.
(Maybe I should go put that phrase on the wonder page, so if you see it there, I didn't lamely steal a quote from myself like I try to do every day at Just Add Light...)
Sandra
http://justaddlightandstir.blogspot.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
keetry
> -=-I can finally say that after about 9 years of reading about, thinking about and doing unschooling those fears don't enter my mind anymore. -=-Yes, it was so exciting to realize that those fears weren't creeping in anymore. That happened very recently, although I think the fears stopped a while ago. On the contrary, I am very confident about it all at this point.
>
> I'm guessing (feel free to confirm or deny, as applicable, if you wish) that what happened in the nine years that helped most was seeing your children learning, and being happy.
>
It's definitely from watching my children learn everything. Our homeschooling experience started with pulling my oldest out of school when he was halfway through 7th grade, 12 years old. He could already read and had done lots of math and other academics in school so we didn't have the experience of watching him learn that stuff on his own terms.
My other children have always been unschooled so everything they've learned can be accredited to them. With respect to reading, we've never done lessons or forced reading and my 2nd child was reading books to his little brother when he was 7. My 3rd child could recognize everyone's names on Christmas presents when he was 3.
Just the other day my 8 year old did this math problem. He told me that jets can fly 30 miles in a half a second (I don't know if that's correct but it's irrelevant to this example.). He asked me how much 60 + 60 was. I told him 120. Then he told me it would take a jet 2 seconds to go that far. There was no hesitation, no struggle, no having to get out paper and pencil and write out the problem.
I'm talking about academics because that's what most people seem to get hung up on. Of course, they do all kinds of other things, painting, drawing, sewing, making up stories that they act out, catching tadpoles in the ditch next to our house after a big rain, riding bikes and skateboards, playing with friends in the neighborhood, meeting the bearded dragons and tarantula pets of our new friends. I could probably go on and on.
I tell people that I'm amazed every day by what my kids know and learn. It seems miraculous. It's not, really. It's normal. I see it as miraculous because I was indoctrinated to believe that none of this could happen outside of school and without teachers.
Alysia
teresa
--- In [email protected], "keetry" <keetry@...> wrote:
"Nobody kept their kids home for 18 or 20 years just discussing life with them, hanging out, playing games.
We probably wouldn't be either, if it weren't that we're biding time until the clock runs out on compulsory education."
This blew my mind. My first thought was, geesh, what else *would* we be doing with them? I had never stopped to consider that unschooling is a product of/reaction to the culture that we all live in, that the time will come when unschooling is irrelevant because the whole concept of education is different. Who knows what people will be doing with their kids in 100 or 200 or 1,000 years? It was very helpful for me to see that unschooling was the *method* that some folks are currently using to allow natural ways of learning emerge in this present cultural moment that happens to privilege compulsory education. It was also fun to think about ways some people have probably always tried to work around or away from whatever system or custom or laws happen to be in place at the time in order to learn what they want in the ways that are best for them.
But! Also, I thought, wow, what a perfect expression of humanity in this day and age unschooling is! We can get our hands on so much information, we can get to so many places, we can access so many people because of this very cool moment in history of the Internet, fairly easy transportation, and enough leisure time (versus time spent focused on surviving) to explore ideas and try skills and make friends and connections.
People have a lot of resources these days, and they are mostly very accessible; of course it makes sense that some of them would seek to use what's available to them when they want it, not just what the schools offer between 8 and 3. It possibly has never been easier to learn about as many different things from so many different sources as it is right now.
I'm with you that what seems to those of us coming from a different paradigm as "miraculous" may well be the most logical outcome of trying to make the most of living in the here and now.
Teresa
mama to Woody (6 1/2) and Fox (3 1/2)
> I tell people that I'm amazed every day by what my kids know and learn. It seems miraculous. It's not, really. It's normal. I see it as miraculous because I was indoctrinated to believe that none of this could happen outside of school and without teachers.I so relate to this. I was on Sandra's new Reality page recently (http://sandradodd.com/reality/), and this response, where she is talking about how parents handled their kids' education historically, jumped out at me:
>
"Nobody kept their kids home for 18 or 20 years just discussing life with them, hanging out, playing games.
We probably wouldn't be either, if it weren't that we're biding time until the clock runs out on compulsory education."
This blew my mind. My first thought was, geesh, what else *would* we be doing with them? I had never stopped to consider that unschooling is a product of/reaction to the culture that we all live in, that the time will come when unschooling is irrelevant because the whole concept of education is different. Who knows what people will be doing with their kids in 100 or 200 or 1,000 years? It was very helpful for me to see that unschooling was the *method* that some folks are currently using to allow natural ways of learning emerge in this present cultural moment that happens to privilege compulsory education. It was also fun to think about ways some people have probably always tried to work around or away from whatever system or custom or laws happen to be in place at the time in order to learn what they want in the ways that are best for them.
But! Also, I thought, wow, what a perfect expression of humanity in this day and age unschooling is! We can get our hands on so much information, we can get to so many places, we can access so many people because of this very cool moment in history of the Internet, fairly easy transportation, and enough leisure time (versus time spent focused on surviving) to explore ideas and try skills and make friends and connections.
People have a lot of resources these days, and they are mostly very accessible; of course it makes sense that some of them would seek to use what's available to them when they want it, not just what the schools offer between 8 and 3. It possibly has never been easier to learn about as many different things from so many different sources as it is right now.
I'm with you that what seems to those of us coming from a different paradigm as "miraculous" may well be the most logical outcome of trying to make the most of living in the here and now.
Teresa
mama to Woody (6 1/2) and Fox (3 1/2)
Sandra Dodd
-=Also, I thought, wow, what a perfect expression of humanity in this day and age unschooling is! We can get our hands on so much information, we can get to so many places, we can access so many people because of this very cool moment in history of the Internet, fairly easy transportation, and enough leisure time (versus time spent focused on surviving) to explore ideas and try skills and make friends and connections. -=-
This reminds me of something that's not politically correct to glorify, but there's a parallel.
The great house, stately home, manor system (whatever feudalism became by the 18th and 19th centuries) provided information, access, fairly easy transportation and enough leisure time to explore ideas and try skills and make friends and connections, for a certain class of English gentlemen. They became self-educated scientists, collectors, explorers, and corresponded with others in the world who had similar interests, Some of those big houses ended up housing huge collections of books, birds' eggs, butterflies, bugs, plants (the gardens weren't just for looks--those guys became collectors of plants from around the world), and it could happen because they had servants, and employees manage the farms and whatever other businesses the estate survived on.
WWI destroyed that system; too many men died, and the Great Depression came, and those watching Downton Abbey get to see some of that.
But at the height of all that, there was a huge network of communication in the world, and guys were playing chess by mail between India and England (and lots of other places, even just across town, because the postman would deliver letters quicklly and for a penny, locally).
International gaming, as fast as their horses and sailing ships would carry "bishop to knight," written with pen and ink, dried with sand and sealed with wax.
Those guys were very literate, and in Latin, too. But there were people who worked for them who couldn't read, and didn't need to.
Things are as things are, and things are not always as they are described by and for political purposes.
Time zips on, and when I started unschooling there was no internet. I don't know what will be available in fifteen years when some of your kids grow up.
But there is no other time or place in which we can be unschoolers, only now.
Sandra
This reminds me of something that's not politically correct to glorify, but there's a parallel.
The great house, stately home, manor system (whatever feudalism became by the 18th and 19th centuries) provided information, access, fairly easy transportation and enough leisure time to explore ideas and try skills and make friends and connections, for a certain class of English gentlemen. They became self-educated scientists, collectors, explorers, and corresponded with others in the world who had similar interests, Some of those big houses ended up housing huge collections of books, birds' eggs, butterflies, bugs, plants (the gardens weren't just for looks--those guys became collectors of plants from around the world), and it could happen because they had servants, and employees manage the farms and whatever other businesses the estate survived on.
WWI destroyed that system; too many men died, and the Great Depression came, and those watching Downton Abbey get to see some of that.
But at the height of all that, there was a huge network of communication in the world, and guys were playing chess by mail between India and England (and lots of other places, even just across town, because the postman would deliver letters quicklly and for a penny, locally).
International gaming, as fast as their horses and sailing ships would carry "bishop to knight," written with pen and ink, dried with sand and sealed with wax.
Those guys were very literate, and in Latin, too. But there were people who worked for them who couldn't read, and didn't need to.
Things are as things are, and things are not always as they are described by and for political purposes.
Time zips on, and when I started unschooling there was no internet. I don't know what will be available in fifteen years when some of your kids grow up.
But there is no other time or place in which we can be unschoolers, only now.
Sandra
Laureen
Heya
On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 10:24 AM, keetry <keetry@...> wrote:
> I was in a discussion about how unschoolers learn to read recently with some friends. One friend asked, if people can learn to read without instruction, how does illiteracy happen?
The key phrase that one unschooling parent used with me that really
stuck (and I don't remember who said it), was that unschoolers learn
to read "at vocabulary level" when they're ready. And the development
of vocabulary is fun stuff.. you talk, you are exposed to new words
about new things in new places and by new people... acquiring
vocabulary is fun. It's not *reading instruction*... it's vocabulary.
Long long long before Rowan could read, we had a word collection;
clipped words in interesting fonts from magazines and book covers and
words written in crayon and pen and pencil and colored in in
interesting ways... We collected words. I'm an editor for a living;
words are fun. We discussed etymology, and how the words in English
that make no sense often make perfect sense in the language they're
sourced from.
So when the bits all collided in Rowan's head, just before he was
nine, it looked like I hadn't taught him to read, because I hadn't...
we'd just had a long series of really interesting conversations.
And I have been horrified to hear kids on the playground (schooled
kids, mostly) making fun of my child for his use of "big words"...
shamed just like I was when I was young. I still get people attempting
to shame me for having a large vocabulary, but since I make my living
that way, it's more acceptable. Boggling, and saddening. I'm hoping my
example of how to handle it is enough to help Rowan be just fine using
polysyllabic words with his head held up. But the societal forces of
supression are strong.
> The only thing I could come up with is that some people's brains may not work in way so that they could ever read well. I don't really know but I thought you all might have some ideas.
I have an uncle who's illiterate. He's only ten years older than me,
and like many visual/spatial people, spectacularly good with creating
things with his hands, and not so great at reading. And I remember him
being shamed with me ("Laureen can read this, and she's only five!")
all his life. Who ever engages in an activity where they've been
shamed, willingly?
I love what Karen said. "It is stunning what a room full of negativity
can do to learning."
--
~~L!
s/v Excellent Adventure
http://www.theexcellentadventure.com/
Sandra Dodd
-=-We discussed etymology, and how the words in English
that make no sense often make perfect sense in the language they're
sourced from.-=-
We did that too, and about older English words "spelled funny" from a time when those letters were pronounced. Castle, sword, knight, two. I have a collection of things that have come up in discussions like these here:
http://sandradodd.com/etymology
And the kids don't need to learn or explore it, though it can help for the mom to, if she never knew anything about word histories. And if it's not fun, don't do it. But if you never even thought about things like the origins of the names of weeks and months, you might like to think about it.
Playing with those ideas, without reading or writing, connects kids to history and geography and vocabulary and Latin and Greek and mythology. (for starters)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
that make no sense often make perfect sense in the language they're
sourced from.-=-
We did that too, and about older English words "spelled funny" from a time when those letters were pronounced. Castle, sword, knight, two. I have a collection of things that have come up in discussions like these here:
http://sandradodd.com/etymology
And the kids don't need to learn or explore it, though it can help for the mom to, if she never knew anything about word histories. And if it's not fun, don't do it. But if you never even thought about things like the origins of the names of weeks and months, you might like to think about it.
Playing with those ideas, without reading or writing, connects kids to history and geography and vocabulary and Latin and Greek and mythology. (for starters)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Laureen
Heya!
On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 11:21 AM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
> And the kids don't need to learn or explore it, though it can help for the mom to, if she never knew anything about word histories. And if it's not fun, don't do it. But if you never even thought about things like the origins of the names of weeks and months, you might like to think about it.
Rowan totally dug it; I've been a fan of word histories since I was small.
The unintended consequence that I have discovered, is that now that he
is reading, when Rowan finds a word he doesn't know or pronounces
incorrectly or whatever, he says "Oh, I need to find the etymology
there" rather than "reading is hard."
> Playing with those ideas, without reading or writing, connects kids to history and geography and vocabulary and Latin and Greek and mythology. (for starters)
Precisely.
--
~~L!
s/v Excellent Adventure
http://www.theexcellentadventure.com/
Sandra Dodd
Because I have a new computer, it has had some things pop up that I hadn't seen for a long time. This e-mail was flagged, from a year ago, and I think it's very interesting.
It's teresa/treesock responding to something:
======================
--- In [email protected], "keetry" <keetry@...> wrote:
> I tell people that I'm amazed every day by what my kids know and learn. It seems miraculous. It's not, really. It's normal. I see it as miraculous because I was indoctrinated to believe that none of this could happen outside of school and without teachers.
>
I so relate to this. I was on Sandra's new Reality page recently (http://sandradodd.com/reality/), and this response, where she is talking about how parents handled their kids' education historically, jumped out at me:
"Nobody kept their kids home for 18 or 20 years just discussing life with them, hanging out, playing games.
We probably wouldn't be either, if it weren't that we're biding time until the clock runs out on compulsory education."
This blew my mind. My first thought was, geesh, what else *would* we be doing with them? I had never stopped to consider that unschooling is a product of/reaction to the culture that we all live in, that the time will come when unschooling is irrelevant because the whole concept of education is different. Who knows what people will be doing with their kids in 100 or 200 or 1,000 years? It was very helpful for me to see that unschooling was the *method* that some folks are currently using to allow natural ways of learning emerge in this present cultural moment that happens to privilege compulsory education. It was also fun to think about ways some people have probably always tried to work around or away from whatever system or custom or laws happen to be in place at the time in order to learn what they want in the ways that are best for them.
But! Also, I thought, wow, what a perfect expression of humanity in this day and age unschooling is! We can get our hands on so much information, we can get to so many places, we can access so many people because of this very cool moment in history of the Internet, fairly easy transportation, and enough leisure time (versus time spent focused on surviving) to explore ideas and try skills and make friends and connections.
People have a lot of resources these days, and they are mostly very accessible; of course it makes sense that some of them would seek to use what's available to them when they want it, not just what the schools offer between 8 and 3. It possibly has never been easier to learn about as many different things from so many different sources as it is right now.
I'm with you that what seems to those of us coming from a different paradigm as "miraculous" may well be the most logical outcome of trying to make the most of living in the here and now.
Teresa
mama to Woody (6 1/2) and Fox (3 1/2)
> I tell people that I'm amazed every day by what my kids know and learn. It seems miraculous. It's not, really. It's normal. I see it as miraculous because I was indoctrinated to believe that none of this could happen outside of school and without teachers.
>
I so relate to this. I was on Sandra's new Reality page recently (http://sandradodd.com/reality/), and this response, where she is talking about how parents handled their kids' education historically, jumped out at me:
"Nobody kept their kids home for 18 or 20 years just discussing life with them, hanging out, playing games.
We probably wouldn't be either, if it weren't that we're biding time until the clock runs out on compulsory education."
This blew my mind. My first thought was, geesh, what else *would* we be doing with them? I had never stopped to consider that unschooling is a product of/reaction to the culture that we all live in, that the time will come when unschooling is irrelevant because the whole concept of education is different. Who knows what people will be doing with their kids in 100 or 200 or 1,000 years? It was very helpful for me to see that unschooling was the *method* that some folks are currently using to allow natural ways of learning emerge in this present cultural moment that happens to privilege compulsory education. It was also fun to think about ways some people have probably always tried to work around or away from whatever system or custom or laws happen to be in place at the time in order to learn what they want in the ways that are best for them.
But! Also, I thought, wow, what a perfect expression of humanity in this day and age unschooling is! We can get our hands on so much information, we can get to so many places, we can access so many people because of this very cool moment in history of the Internet, fairly easy transportation, and enough leisure time (versus time spent focused on surviving) to explore ideas and try skills and make friends and connections.
People have a lot of resources these days, and they are mostly very accessible; of course it makes sense that some of them would seek to use what's available to them when they want it, not just what the schools offer between 8 and 3. It possibly has never been easier to learn about as many different things from so many different sources as it is right now.
I'm with you that what seems to those of us coming from a different paradigm as "miraculous" may well be the most logical outcome of trying to make the most of living in the here and now.
Teresa
mama to Woody (6 1/2) and Fox (3 1/2)
=======================================
It was a little deep for newcomers or for those stressed about taking kids out of school, I know. But try not to talk about unschooling as an eternal universal. Sometimes people say that unschooling is what people did before there was such a thing as compulsory education, but I really don't think so at all.
Sandra