being cheery and not sharing bad news
Sandra Dodd
I wrote this on facebook, but just in case someone here needs it...
There are things NOT to tell your children.
And if anyone here has no idea why I would have written this, that's
no problem. Don't ask. It's fine not to know.
-------------
I have a suggestion about families, and children, and learning, and
the news. Please, anyone with a child too young to google or to read,
don't review for them terrible news about dead babies or shootings or
wars. Make their lives happy, where they are, today.
For moms: If you don't know anyone directly affected by bad news,
don't allow yourself to be "directly affected" in such a way that you
go deep into your feelings about "what if" and "poor families." It is
possible to slip down too far, and who's taking care of your children
then?
For Batman fans. :-)
If you have a kid wanting to go see the Batman movie, Take HIM! Don't
whine or whinge or wring your hands about something that happened
somewhere else. It was not about the movie, and it was not about a
theater. It was about one guy who was for some reason unhappy.
Don't let your own kids grow up to be so unhappy. Start now! HAVE A
NICE DAY!!! Create nice-dayness around you.
A 24 year old did something horrible last night. I have a 25 year old
and a 23 year old who have done very nice things this week. Be on the
positive team, not the negative team. You can do it.
If anyone posts any details about horrible things, I'll delete them
quietly. If anyone posts suggestions for happy things to do to promote
joy and gratitude, that would be great!"
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
There are things NOT to tell your children.
And if anyone here has no idea why I would have written this, that's
no problem. Don't ask. It's fine not to know.
-------------
I have a suggestion about families, and children, and learning, and
the news. Please, anyone with a child too young to google or to read,
don't review for them terrible news about dead babies or shootings or
wars. Make their lives happy, where they are, today.
For moms: If you don't know anyone directly affected by bad news,
don't allow yourself to be "directly affected" in such a way that you
go deep into your feelings about "what if" and "poor families." It is
possible to slip down too far, and who's taking care of your children
then?
For Batman fans. :-)
If you have a kid wanting to go see the Batman movie, Take HIM! Don't
whine or whinge or wring your hands about something that happened
somewhere else. It was not about the movie, and it was not about a
theater. It was about one guy who was for some reason unhappy.
Don't let your own kids grow up to be so unhappy. Start now! HAVE A
NICE DAY!!! Create nice-dayness around you.
A 24 year old did something horrible last night. I have a 25 year old
and a 23 year old who have done very nice things this week. Be on the
positive team, not the negative team. You can do it.
If anyone posts any details about horrible things, I'll delete them
quietly. If anyone posts suggestions for happy things to do to promote
joy and gratitude, that would be great!"
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
chris ester
One of our 'happy things' today was using a bread machine for the first
time and marveling at how it seems to work. Later, it will be eating fresh
bread and welcoming my husband, their dad, home from traveling this week.
chris
time and marveling at how it seems to work. Later, it will be eating fresh
bread and welcoming my husband, their dad, home from traveling this week.
chris
On Fri, Jul 20, 2012 at 4:13 PM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
> **
>
>
> I wrote this on facebook, but just in case someone here needs it...
> There are things NOT to tell your children.
>
> And if anyone here has no idea why I would have written this, that's
> no problem. Don't ask. It's fine not to know.
>
> -------------
>
> I have a suggestion about families, and children, and learning, and
> the news. Please, anyone with a child too young to google or to read,
> don't review for them terrible news about dead babies or shootings or
> wars. Make their lives happy, where they are, today.
>
> For moms: If you don't know anyone directly affected by bad news,
> don't allow yourself to be "directly affected" in such a way that you
> go deep into your feelings about "what if" and "poor families." It is
> possible to slip down too far, and who's taking care of your children
> then?
>
> For Batman fans. :-)
> If you have a kid wanting to go see the Batman movie, Take HIM! Don't
> whine or whinge or wring your hands about something that happened
> somewhere else. It was not about the movie, and it was not about a
> theater. It was about one guy who was for some reason unhappy.
>
> Don't let your own kids grow up to be so unhappy. Start now! HAVE A
> NICE DAY!!! Create nice-dayness around you.
>
> A 24 year old did something horrible last night. I have a 25 year old
> and a 23 year old who have done very nice things this week. Be on the
> positive team, not the negative team. You can do it.
>
> If anyone posts any details about horrible things, I'll delete them
> quietly. If anyone posts suggestions for happy things to do to promote
> joy and gratitude, that would be great!"
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
sukaynalabboun
We went to the movies and a new grocery store on the way home....unaware of the news. My girls had wanted to see the new Ice Age movie so we went spontaneously (Why not? I thought to myself...even though there were too many have-to's). We had a great time and laughed together, talked about earthquakes, geography, extinction etc. Thanks to everyone for posting, their amazing feedback and the families willing to share their knowledge with us new-unschoolers. This ongoing change of walking into the light and the joy has been priceless!
Sandra Dodd
-=-(Why not? I thought to myself...even though there were too many
have-to's)-=-
I was with another family on July 7, and we spontaneously went to see
the Ice Age movie. I had seen the one just before that in the series
for the first time that morning. :-)
As to "have to," though, my automatic objection is kicking in.
http://sandradodd.com/haveto
Always choose!
There is a really great blog post about that, new today, from a mom
with young children:
http://unprocessedfamily.blogspot.com/2012/07/turning-day-around.html
I have it on my checklist to link it from my page and quote some of it
here anyway, so I'll create a new topic just for that.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
have-to's)-=-
I was with another family on July 7, and we spontaneously went to see
the Ice Age movie. I had seen the one just before that in the series
for the first time that morning. :-)
As to "have to," though, my automatic objection is kicking in.
http://sandradodd.com/haveto
Always choose!
There is a really great blog post about that, new today, from a mom
with young children:
http://unprocessedfamily.blogspot.com/2012/07/turning-day-around.html
I have it on my checklist to link it from my page and quote some of it
here anyway, so I'll create a new topic just for that.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
K Pennell
We went to a science museum today with an awesome Lego display. It was fun, and the boys were even nice to each other! We spent the ride home talking about other cool places we could go.
Of course, we came home and now are going to build Legos because seeing a 3,000,000 brick Lego display can be very inspiring!
Of course, we came home and now are going to build Legos because seeing a 3,000,000 brick Lego display can be very inspiring!
--- On Fri, 7/20/12, sukaynalabboun <sukaynalabboun@...> wrote:
From: sukaynalabboun <sukaynalabboun@...>
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Re: being cheery and not sharing bad news
To: [email protected]
Date: Friday, July 20, 2012, 6:33 PM
We went to the movies and a new grocery store on the way home....unaware of the news. My girls had wanted to see the new Ice Age movie so we went spontaneously (Why not? I thought to myself...even though there were too many have-to's). We had a great time and laughed together, talked about earthquakes, geography, extinction etc. Thanks to everyone for posting, their amazing feedback and the families willing to share their knowledge with us new-unschoolers. This ongoing change of walking into the light and the joy has been priceless!
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Of course, we came home and now are going to build Legos because
seeing a 3,000,000 brick Lego display can be very inspiring! -=-
Day before yesterday I saw a BIG Lego model of the Liberty Bell in the
Philadelphia airport. It was down lower than the glass-sided chute I
was in with the other people being herded to immigration, but it did
look very cool from up above. If it wasn't full size maybe it was
larger than full size. It was big.
It won't be the same as in person, but I took photos at Legoland
Windsor recently.
http://s26.photobucket.com/albums/c111/SandraDodd/Europe/Sandra2012/June20LegolandWindsor/?start=all
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
seeing a 3,000,000 brick Lego display can be very inspiring! -=-
Day before yesterday I saw a BIG Lego model of the Liberty Bell in the
Philadelphia airport. It was down lower than the glass-sided chute I
was in with the other people being herded to immigration, but it did
look very cool from up above. If it wasn't full size maybe it was
larger than full size. It was big.
It won't be the same as in person, but I took photos at Legoland
Windsor recently.
http://s26.photobucket.com/albums/c111/SandraDodd/Europe/Sandra2012/June20LegolandWindsor/?start=all
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
K Pennell
Awesome, thanks! Impressive. I love Legos almost as much as they do.
Luke wants to know, in the picture with the Lego police officer on the sidewalk and the Lego burglar climbing over the railing, (photo 38) is the building Lego as well?
Luke wants to know, in the picture with the Lego police officer on the sidewalk and the Lego burglar climbing over the railing, (photo 38) is the building Lego as well?
--- On Fri, 7/20/12, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
From: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: being cheery and not sharing bad news
To: [email protected]
Date: Friday, July 20, 2012, 8:09 PM
-=-Of course, we came home and now are going to build Legos because
seeing a 3,000,000 brick Lego display can be very inspiring! -=-
Day before yesterday I saw a BIG Lego model of the Liberty Bell in the
Philadelphia airport. It was down lower than the glass-sided chute I
was in with the other people being herded to immigration, but it did
look very cool from up above. If it wasn't full size maybe it was
larger than full size. It was big.
It won't be the same as in person, but I took photos at Legoland
Windsor recently.
http://s26.photobucket.com/albums/c111/SandraDodd/Europe/Sandra2012/June20LegolandWindsor/?start=all
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Luke wants to know, in the picture with the Lego police officer on
the sidewalk and the Lego burglar climbing over the railing, (photo
38) is the building Lego as well?-=-
The buildings in that area were real, mostly food or books. There
were characters built as decorations, more or less real-life size.
There was a stork carrying a baby in a blanket, up on one
chimney. :-) The kids we were with only knew that reference from the
movie "Dumbo." I guess nobody tells kids anymore "the stork brings
them," when they ask where babies come from.
The wheelbarrow was real. I love wheelbarrows. The big animals are
all Lego--zebra and such. The big drinking horn was not Lego.
There's a photo there with Windsor Castle and a big ferris wheel (from
a distance) and the size they appear from there makes them look like
a Lego model.
The photos of the mosaic on the wall at the Atlantis ride were taken
for me to show Holly's boyfriend who does tile mosaics.
I took the closeups so he could see how they layered the Lego to give
it depth, and had some clear blocks on top of colors to change colors
a little.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
the sidewalk and the Lego burglar climbing over the railing, (photo
38) is the building Lego as well?-=-
The buildings in that area were real, mostly food or books. There
were characters built as decorations, more or less real-life size.
There was a stork carrying a baby in a blanket, up on one
chimney. :-) The kids we were with only knew that reference from the
movie "Dumbo." I guess nobody tells kids anymore "the stork brings
them," when they ask where babies come from.
The wheelbarrow was real. I love wheelbarrows. The big animals are
all Lego--zebra and such. The big drinking horn was not Lego.
There's a photo there with Windsor Castle and a big ferris wheel (from
a distance) and the size they appear from there makes them look like
a Lego model.
The photos of the mosaic on the wall at the Atlantis ride were taken
for me to show Holly's boyfriend who does tile mosaics.
I took the closeups so he could see how they layered the Lego to give
it depth, and had some clear blocks on top of colors to change colors
a little.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
mdfisher23
We have been making our first batches of homemade ice cream this week. Flavors so far include fresh strawberry and coconut. Next up, plum!
--Marcia
--Marcia
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> I wrote this on facebook, but just in case someone here needs it...
> There are things NOT to tell your children.
>
>
> And if anyone here has no idea why I would have written this, that's
> no problem. Don't ask. It's fine not to know.
>
> -------------
>
> I have a suggestion about families, and children, and learning, and
> the news. Please, anyone with a child too young to google or to read,
> don't review for them terrible news about dead babies or shootings or
> wars. Make their lives happy, where they are, today.
>
> For moms: If you don't know anyone directly affected by bad news,
> don't allow yourself to be "directly affected" in such a way that you
> go deep into your feelings about "what if" and "poor families." It is
> possible to slip down too far, and who's taking care of your children
> then?
>
> For Batman fans. :-)
> If you have a kid wanting to go see the Batman movie, Take HIM! Don't
> whine or whinge or wring your hands about something that happened
> somewhere else. It was not about the movie, and it was not about a
> theater. It was about one guy who was for some reason unhappy.
>
> Don't let your own kids grow up to be so unhappy. Start now! HAVE A
> NICE DAY!!! Create nice-dayness around you.
>
> A 24 year old did something horrible last night. I have a 25 year old
> and a 23 year old who have done very nice things this week. Be on the
> positive team, not the negative team. You can do it.
>
> If anyone posts any details about horrible things, I'll delete them
> quietly. If anyone posts suggestions for happy things to do to promote
> joy and gratitude, that would be great!"
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
keetry
== We have been making our first batches of homemade ice cream this week. ==
On that note, does anyone have one of those ice cream ball shakers and had luck with it? We have one and my husband tried to make coconut milk/cream ice cream and it did not work. I'm wondering if there's a trick to using coconut milk/cream that we're missing.
Alysia
On that note, does anyone have one of those ice cream ball shakers and had luck with it? We have one and my husband tried to make coconut milk/cream ice cream and it did not work. I'm wondering if there's a trick to using coconut milk/cream that we're missing.
Alysia
Andrea Q
We have had success with regular cream/light cream, but haven't tried any non-dairy milks. Did you refrigerate the coconut milk first? That might speed it up.
Andrea Q
Andrea Q
--- In [email protected], "keetry" <keetry@...> wrote:
>
> == We have been making our first batches of homemade ice cream this week. ==
>
> On that note, does anyone have one of those ice cream ball shakers and had luck with it? We have one and my husband tried to make coconut milk/cream ice cream and it did not work. I'm wondering if there's a trick to using coconut milk/cream that we're missing.
>
> Alysia
>
sukaynalabboun
>Thanks for the reminder, but I meant it sarcastically (honestly!) We needed to get groceries and prepare for a month of fasting and about a million other things, but the 8 months reading here about choosing, as you pointed out, won over and we found a way to incorporate the most important stuff (food) with fun- which was great. Thanks so much for all the ideas and feedback you all have offered here and on your site- wonderful opportunities to see ourselves and really choose to be better parents, better partners, to be *there* as much as is possible. I can see so much more happiness and peace in our home, so much more real learning. BTW, I hope your leg is doing a bit better by now :)
> As to "have to," though, my automatic objection is kicking in.
>
> http://sandradodd.com/haveto
>
> Always choose!
>
> Sandra,
Sandra Dodd
Sarcasm is a problem in person, and rarely comes across in writing.
I used to be sarcastic for fun when I was younger, but it became a bad habit and isn't helpful. It's like playing rough for fun. Sometimes it's okay, but not for twenty years. And I didn't want my kids to have that habit.
Just today on facebook a friend of mine (divorced long ago, childless, lives far away now but we were close friends before I had kids and in the early years of my motherhood) wrote something about sarcasm. I'm going to include the exchange here, because I think it's something some people haven't thought of, regarding sarcasm. It's a form of negativity that has a target.
My friend:
People ask me why I'm so sarcastic. I think being the newest, fattest, shortest, smartest, glasses-wearing, sissy kid in my class had something to do with. If you're going to get beat up no matter what you do you might as well let those evil motherfuckers know exactly what you think of them; even if they're too stupid to understand you.
Sandra Dodd:
When it becomes a way of being, though, it can be tiresome and harmful to people who were never mean to you, or who don't want to play. I used to be sarcastic for fun, with friends, and made a conscious decision years ago not to do that anymore.
54 minutes ago
My friend:
You are right, as usual. I try to keep mine confined to politics, where things are so bad my sarcasm no longer sounds like anything other than a simple, spin-free description of the situation.
That makes me sad.
50 minutes ago
Sandra Dodd:
Then stop paying attention to politics! If you remember Bill Cosby's "Chicken Heart," the answer is: "Turn off the radio."
30 minutes ago ·
My friend:
My sarcasm is mostly confined to yelling at the television.
My social life takes place with people from church & age has mellowed me to a light cynicism delivered on limited occasion. I figure that if I'm the second most cynical person in the room I'm ok.
===================================================================
Because he doesn't have children, he's not making anyone unhappy but himself and a few friends. But having as a goal to make sure you're around someone who's more cynical than you are is a very low hurdle, and not the path to joy. :-)
Sandra
I used to be sarcastic for fun when I was younger, but it became a bad habit and isn't helpful. It's like playing rough for fun. Sometimes it's okay, but not for twenty years. And I didn't want my kids to have that habit.
Just today on facebook a friend of mine (divorced long ago, childless, lives far away now but we were close friends before I had kids and in the early years of my motherhood) wrote something about sarcasm. I'm going to include the exchange here, because I think it's something some people haven't thought of, regarding sarcasm. It's a form of negativity that has a target.
My friend:
People ask me why I'm so sarcastic. I think being the newest, fattest, shortest, smartest, glasses-wearing, sissy kid in my class had something to do with. If you're going to get beat up no matter what you do you might as well let those evil motherfuckers know exactly what you think of them; even if they're too stupid to understand you.
Sandra Dodd:
When it becomes a way of being, though, it can be tiresome and harmful to people who were never mean to you, or who don't want to play. I used to be sarcastic for fun, with friends, and made a conscious decision years ago not to do that anymore.
54 minutes ago
My friend:
You are right, as usual. I try to keep mine confined to politics, where things are so bad my sarcasm no longer sounds like anything other than a simple, spin-free description of the situation.
That makes me sad.
50 minutes ago
Sandra Dodd:
Then stop paying attention to politics! If you remember Bill Cosby's "Chicken Heart," the answer is: "Turn off the radio."
30 minutes ago ·
My friend:
My sarcasm is mostly confined to yelling at the television.
My social life takes place with people from church & age has mellowed me to a light cynicism delivered on limited occasion. I figure that if I'm the second most cynical person in the room I'm ok.
===================================================================
Because he doesn't have children, he's not making anyone unhappy but himself and a few friends. But having as a goal to make sure you're around someone who's more cynical than you are is a very low hurdle, and not the path to joy. :-)
Sandra
Jolee Josephs
My name is Jolee, and I am new to this group.
I think too few people understand how
undermining the use of sarcasm can be, not just to the person that sarcasm is
directed towards, but also to the person who is wielding his or her words like
"toy" weapons. (And I'm sure many of us parents know that being hit
with a toy sword can certainly hurt). Using sarcasm is like taking a sucker
punch at somebody and then saying, "Oh, I didn't really mean it. I was
just kidding."
Of course, I also think that people often say they are being "sarcastic"
when they are actually being "ironic." We use irony in our house all
the time and have a ton of fun doing so and generate a ton of laughter. Of
course irony, in the simplest terms, is saying the opposite of what you really
mean. Sarcasm is a cruel form of irony--if irony is a playful tickle, sarcasm
is the sucker punch.
Using sarcasm also tends to go along with meaningless criticism and judgments about
other people. I'm sure the majority of us, at one time or another, have
"bonded" with other people by talking about someone else and how
whatever that person is doing or wearing or saying is somehow screwed up. (I
honestly think that our desire to point out what we don't like or what we
disagree with about other people goes back to our clan days when the outsiders
or people who didn't do things as we did them posed a very real threat to the
lives of our families.)
As parents who choose to raise our children differently than the majority, and
raise them to be positive and happy and free-thinkers, even we can fall into
the trap of talking about the "horrors" of the school system and
about so-and-so who is so messed up because of her by-the-book family and the
cookie-cutter school system (Actually, my choice to use the terms "horror"
and "cookie-cutter" creates a negative judgment. I almost deleted those
terms when I realized I had used them, but decided that it was a good example of
how easily we can create negativity with our language.)
We can only be truly free when we let all of our judgments about others fall away
and when we chose to talk about positive things instead of negative things--and
that choice precludes sarcasm.
I think too few people understand how
undermining the use of sarcasm can be, not just to the person that sarcasm is
directed towards, but also to the person who is wielding his or her words like
"toy" weapons. (And I'm sure many of us parents know that being hit
with a toy sword can certainly hurt). Using sarcasm is like taking a sucker
punch at somebody and then saying, "Oh, I didn't really mean it. I was
just kidding."
Of course, I also think that people often say they are being "sarcastic"
when they are actually being "ironic." We use irony in our house all
the time and have a ton of fun doing so and generate a ton of laughter. Of
course irony, in the simplest terms, is saying the opposite of what you really
mean. Sarcasm is a cruel form of irony--if irony is a playful tickle, sarcasm
is the sucker punch.
Using sarcasm also tends to go along with meaningless criticism and judgments about
other people. I'm sure the majority of us, at one time or another, have
"bonded" with other people by talking about someone else and how
whatever that person is doing or wearing or saying is somehow screwed up. (I
honestly think that our desire to point out what we don't like or what we
disagree with about other people goes back to our clan days when the outsiders
or people who didn't do things as we did them posed a very real threat to the
lives of our families.)
As parents who choose to raise our children differently than the majority, and
raise them to be positive and happy and free-thinkers, even we can fall into
the trap of talking about the "horrors" of the school system and
about so-and-so who is so messed up because of her by-the-book family and the
cookie-cutter school system (Actually, my choice to use the terms "horror"
and "cookie-cutter" creates a negative judgment. I almost deleted those
terms when I realized I had used them, but decided that it was a good example of
how easily we can create negativity with our language.)
We can only be truly free when we let all of our judgments about others fall away
and when we chose to talk about positive things instead of negative things--and
that choice precludes sarcasm.
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
"We can only be truly free when we let all of our judgments about others fall away
and when we chose to talk about positive things instead of negative things--and
that choice precludes sarcasm. "
But how can one choose to talk about positive over negative if we do not judge what is one or what is the other?
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
and when we chose to talk about positive things instead of negative things--and
that choice precludes sarcasm. "
But how can one choose to talk about positive over negative if we do not judge what is one or what is the other?
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=- Of
course irony, in the simplest terms, is saying the opposite of what you really
mean. Sarcasm is a cruel form of irony--if irony is a playful tickle, sarcasm
is the sucker punch. -=-
When you say the opposite of what you really mean, that is sarcasm.
Irony is more subtle than that, and is more powerful when it's accidental or incidental. In writing, in literature or theatre, characters will say things that are designed to seem to be accidental or incidental. Those are designed but aren't sarcastic.
If someone conversationally and purposefully says the opposite of what he means, to another person, with any intent to embarrass or confuse the other person, that's sarcasm.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
course irony, in the simplest terms, is saying the opposite of what you really
mean. Sarcasm is a cruel form of irony--if irony is a playful tickle, sarcasm
is the sucker punch. -=-
When you say the opposite of what you really mean, that is sarcasm.
Irony is more subtle than that, and is more powerful when it's accidental or incidental. In writing, in literature or theatre, characters will say things that are designed to seem to be accidental or incidental. Those are designed but aren't sarcastic.
If someone conversationally and purposefully says the opposite of what he means, to another person, with any intent to embarrass or confuse the other person, that's sarcasm.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jul 22, 2012, at 7:03 PM, Jolee Josephs wrote:
Not judge a parent who hits his kids and leaves bruises? Not judge a person who repeatedly drinks and drives? Not judge a person who sells meth?
While I think it's more useful to judge behavior rather than a person, suggesting people let go of their judgements about others suggests not judging anything at all. Despite the current sentiment that "It's all good," there is definitely stuff that isn't good.
Are you telling your kids not to judge other kids who are sneaky or liars or thieves or manipulative? it's not easy for kids to separate behavior from a person. And I don't think they should. Kids should be listening to their instincts about whether they feel comfortable.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Using sarcasm also tends to go along with meaningless criticism and judgments aboutI definitely noticed when I made sarcastic comments about people that my daughter Kat, when she was younger, was more likely to make negative comments. When I remarked how cool it was that people could dress and act differently, she tended to echo that. I decided to stop being sarcastic?
> other people.
> We can only be truly free when we let all of our judgments about others fall awayTruly free from what?
> and when we chose to talk about positive things instead of negative things--and
> that choice precludes sarcasm.
Not judge a parent who hits his kids and leaves bruises? Not judge a person who repeatedly drinks and drives? Not judge a person who sells meth?
While I think it's more useful to judge behavior rather than a person, suggesting people let go of their judgements about others suggests not judging anything at all. Despite the current sentiment that "It's all good," there is definitely stuff that isn't good.
Are you telling your kids not to judge other kids who are sneaky or liars or thieves or manipulative? it's not easy for kids to separate behavior from a person. And I don't think they should. Kids should be listening to their instincts about whether they feel comfortable.
Joyce
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Sandra Dodd
So…. I got an e-mail from Smithsonian magazine and followed a link to read about the history of the Olympics.
But down below was this, about sarcasm. :-)
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/The-Science-of-Sarcasm-Yeah-Right.html
Sandra
But down below was this, about sarcasm. :-)
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/The-Science-of-Sarcasm-Yeah-Right.html
Sandra
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jul 22, 2012, at 10:15 PM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
If I say during a rain storm "The sun sure is bright today," that's verbal irony. If I'm indirectly referring to a weather reporter's statement that it would be sunny today, I'm being sarcastic. (I'm running some ironic statements about people through my head and they'll all sounding sarcastic.)
I think people tend to reserve the word ironic for the clever and surprising kind. It deserves a special word :-) Just saying the opposite of what you mean can be humorous but isn't particularly clever and not really deserving of a special word.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> When you say the opposite of what you really mean, that is sarcasm.According to Wikipedia, verbal irony is saying the opposite of what is meant. If that ironic statement is intended to be cutting or cruel, then it's sarcasm.
If I say during a rain storm "The sun sure is bright today," that's verbal irony. If I'm indirectly referring to a weather reporter's statement that it would be sunny today, I'm being sarcastic. (I'm running some ironic statements about people through my head and they'll all sounding sarcastic.)
I think people tend to reserve the word ironic for the clever and surprising kind. It deserves a special word :-) Just saying the opposite of what you mean can be humorous but isn't particularly clever and not really deserving of a special word.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Meredith
Jolee Josephs <joleejosephs@...> wrote:
Ray, my stepson, doesn't really understand sarcasm as a form of play - whether because of his personality or past experiences, I don't know. My daughter is much more savvy about word play and understands the idea of sarcasm (not so much irony, yet - too subtle), although she's not very skillful with it yet. I let her know when it's Not a good time to use it, especially with other people. She shouldn't be sarcastic when she comes to work with me - not even to my witty co-worker, because he'll see her as a little brat who needs to be put in her place, rather than a quirky, interesting kid who likes the same video games and cartoons he does.
There's judgement and there's judgement. I've found it really helpful to draw on my ability to analyze people and situations critically as a way to become more compassionate.
---Meredith
>Sarcasm is a cruel form of irony--if irony is a playful tickle, sarcasmA playful tickle can be an invasion of personal space or even painful if it's not consensual. And I've done enough mock sword play with wooden swords to know that being hit in the gut with a stick can be a rollicking good time if both parties are into it. It's not so much a matter of sarcasm versus irony as being aware and sensitive to people and situations. There are times George and I fling irony and sarcasm around all in good fun, and times when one of us starts then says "woops, my bad, you're not in the mood, are you?" And there's a fellow I work with who's similar - he can play rough, verbally, although there's a second fellow who can't and we're both very careful how we "play" with him because he can snap without much warning.
> is the sucker punch.
Ray, my stepson, doesn't really understand sarcasm as a form of play - whether because of his personality or past experiences, I don't know. My daughter is much more savvy about word play and understands the idea of sarcasm (not so much irony, yet - too subtle), although she's not very skillful with it yet. I let her know when it's Not a good time to use it, especially with other people. She shouldn't be sarcastic when she comes to work with me - not even to my witty co-worker, because he'll see her as a little brat who needs to be put in her place, rather than a quirky, interesting kid who likes the same video games and cartoons he does.
> We can only be truly free when we let all of our judgments about others fall away**************
There's judgement and there's judgement. I've found it really helpful to draw on my ability to analyze people and situations critically as a way to become more compassionate.
---Meredith
Meredith
Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...> wrote:
Saying the opposite of what she meant, or what was true was the first form of humor Mo discovered. She was little, just barely talking at all, and would point and say the opposite - blue for red, for instance, or moon for sun or no for yes - and get a big goofy grin on her face. I thought it was pretty darned clever for a kid with a limited vocabulary. It wasn't sarcasm the way adults use it, though... or maybe it was a purer, more innocent form of sarcasm; playing with opposites for the purpose of delight.
---Meredith
>Just saying the opposite of what you mean can be humorous but isn't particularly clever and not really deserving of a special word.**************
Saying the opposite of what she meant, or what was true was the first form of humor Mo discovered. She was little, just barely talking at all, and would point and say the opposite - blue for red, for instance, or moon for sun or no for yes - and get a big goofy grin on her face. I thought it was pretty darned clever for a kid with a limited vocabulary. It wasn't sarcasm the way adults use it, though... or maybe it was a purer, more innocent form of sarcasm; playing with opposites for the purpose of delight.
---Meredith
Sandra Dodd
A: We can only be truly free when we let all of our judgments about others fall away
**************
B: There's judgement and there's judgement. I've found it really helpful to draw on my ability to analyze people and situations critically as a way to become more compassionate.
============
Yes, and a flowery statement like "We can only be truly free when we let all of our judgments about others fall away" is full of judgment and comparison.
Anyone who has judgments of others isn't truly free (a judgment)
and some might be free, but this writer is better. She's "truly" free.
It's good for people to put their best ideas out and let others show them the go-back-to-the-drawingboard parts. :-)
I know it can be frustrating for new list members, but seriously, we warn and ask and remind people to wait, to read.
People can't think without having any goal, direction or intent.
Thoughts swirling without direction won't form into any ideas.
If we decided to go somewhere today, but had no destination, and got into the car, we wouldn't know whether to turn left or right. We could wander aimlessly, flipping a coin (there's a little girls' book from early 20th C about flipping a coin and walking in the snow and coming to a toystore window), but why? Gasoline is expensive. Being in an automobile is dangerous. It's better to stay home safely, peacefully and inexpensively until there's a destination.
Sandra
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**************
B: There's judgement and there's judgement. I've found it really helpful to draw on my ability to analyze people and situations critically as a way to become more compassionate.
============
Yes, and a flowery statement like "We can only be truly free when we let all of our judgments about others fall away" is full of judgment and comparison.
Anyone who has judgments of others isn't truly free (a judgment)
and some might be free, but this writer is better. She's "truly" free.
It's good for people to put their best ideas out and let others show them the go-back-to-the-drawingboard parts. :-)
I know it can be frustrating for new list members, but seriously, we warn and ask and remind people to wait, to read.
People can't think without having any goal, direction or intent.
Thoughts swirling without direction won't form into any ideas.
If we decided to go somewhere today, but had no destination, and got into the car, we wouldn't know whether to turn left or right. We could wander aimlessly, flipping a coin (there's a little girls' book from early 20th C about flipping a coin and walking in the snow and coming to a toystore window), but why? Gasoline is expensive. Being in an automobile is dangerous. It's better to stay home safely, peacefully and inexpensively until there's a destination.
Sandra
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Sandra Dodd
-=- It wasn't sarcasm the way adults use it, though... or maybe it was a purer, more innocent form of sarcasm; playing with opposites for the purpose of delight. -=-
That's playing with words without a target.
Kirby and Marty used to recite the swimming pool rules in opposites.
Always swim in a storm.
Never swim with a buddy.
Always run by the pool.
I used to sing the Flintstones lyrics to the Jetson's tune, and vice-versa, to irritate Kirby when he was four or five, and I would stop when he would say stop. It amused me that it bothered him. I didn't torment him with it (just a little bit).
You have to change them out.
Meet Fred Flintstone (DA da da Da da da� doddy doddy dot!)
His dog Dino
Wilma his wife�
And "Jetsons, meet the Jetsons
They're the modern Spaceage family�"
But to my children, about my children, I didn't use sarcasm because I loved them and wanted them to grow up being seen directly, and feeling safe.
Sandra
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That's playing with words without a target.
Kirby and Marty used to recite the swimming pool rules in opposites.
Always swim in a storm.
Never swim with a buddy.
Always run by the pool.
I used to sing the Flintstones lyrics to the Jetson's tune, and vice-versa, to irritate Kirby when he was four or five, and I would stop when he would say stop. It amused me that it bothered him. I didn't torment him with it (just a little bit).
You have to change them out.
Meet Fred Flintstone (DA da da Da da da� doddy doddy dot!)
His dog Dino
Wilma his wife�
And "Jetsons, meet the Jetsons
They're the modern Spaceage family�"
But to my children, about my children, I didn't use sarcasm because I loved them and wanted them to grow up being seen directly, and feeling safe.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
draconi_ann
The topic of sarcasm is a complex one for me. I'm a deeply sarcastic, cynical and pessimistic person. Many years ago I wasn't. But after an entire childhood enduring severe peer abuse and parents that weren't a soft place to land, my nature has fundamentally changed. I believe those three things have been a coping mechanism for me. I don't like it about myself and I try not to be that way around my kids but I fail frequently.
Reading that article reminded me of an experience I had about a week ago playing World of Warcraft with my adult son. We were in one of the hardest dungeons and it was my first time there so I wasn't familiar with the fight mechanics and how to respond. Rather quickly another player (these groups are composed of five people pulled from all over the country randomly) started insulting me. At first he used sarcasm. But it got worse...it became out and out mean stuff. It triggered all those feelings of powerlessness and helplessness I felt as a kid. My son (who was also on Skype with me) told me to ignore it. He tried to stand up for me but that only marginally helped. It continued of and on for the rest of the dungeon, lasting around 20 minutes.
Afterwards I told my son how upsetting it was for me to be bullied like that by a stranger. But he insisted that it wasn't bullying...it was "trolling". I knew "trolls" in internet nomenclature to be people that said mean things just to get a rise out of people. He insisted that because it was just a game that it was "only" trolling and that I should shrug it off. I found that to be a strange response. So, I did some Googling and found many articles about it. It seems that many kids in I'd say around the 14-25 year old age range right now differentiate the behavior. They overall see it as acceptable and not serious because in the gaming environment there is this separation that exists. Most trolls believe it is their "avatar" that is saying the mean things to another "avatar". Most do it because they describe it as "fun".
Perhaps the meaning of sarcasm in our culture is evolving? I think some of the best television and movies are English made. They absolutely ooze with sarcasm and "biting wit" (Shakespeare was a pro at it!). I think there is a very fine line between hateful sarcasm and humorous sarcasm. My dad "teased" me constantly in a good natured way up to the day he died. He was a "smart Alec" and so am I. I really do try to confine my sarcasm to that kind of silly teasing but what Sandra has said about lightness and joy has made me re-evaluate how much of that I want to continue. My older two recognize sarcasm really well and roll with it but my 9 year old doesn't very well still.
~Michelle
Reading that article reminded me of an experience I had about a week ago playing World of Warcraft with my adult son. We were in one of the hardest dungeons and it was my first time there so I wasn't familiar with the fight mechanics and how to respond. Rather quickly another player (these groups are composed of five people pulled from all over the country randomly) started insulting me. At first he used sarcasm. But it got worse...it became out and out mean stuff. It triggered all those feelings of powerlessness and helplessness I felt as a kid. My son (who was also on Skype with me) told me to ignore it. He tried to stand up for me but that only marginally helped. It continued of and on for the rest of the dungeon, lasting around 20 minutes.
Afterwards I told my son how upsetting it was for me to be bullied like that by a stranger. But he insisted that it wasn't bullying...it was "trolling". I knew "trolls" in internet nomenclature to be people that said mean things just to get a rise out of people. He insisted that because it was just a game that it was "only" trolling and that I should shrug it off. I found that to be a strange response. So, I did some Googling and found many articles about it. It seems that many kids in I'd say around the 14-25 year old age range right now differentiate the behavior. They overall see it as acceptable and not serious because in the gaming environment there is this separation that exists. Most trolls believe it is their "avatar" that is saying the mean things to another "avatar". Most do it because they describe it as "fun".
Perhaps the meaning of sarcasm in our culture is evolving? I think some of the best television and movies are English made. They absolutely ooze with sarcasm and "biting wit" (Shakespeare was a pro at it!). I think there is a very fine line between hateful sarcasm and humorous sarcasm. My dad "teased" me constantly in a good natured way up to the day he died. He was a "smart Alec" and so am I. I really do try to confine my sarcasm to that kind of silly teasing but what Sandra has said about lightness and joy has made me re-evaluate how much of that I want to continue. My older two recognize sarcasm really well and roll with it but my 9 year old doesn't very well still.
~Michelle
Karen
> I think too few people understand howMy son, Ethan, who is nine, loves loves loves Garfield (and has for years) in large part because of the characters' often cruel expressions of sarcasm toward each other. Nearly every night he reads Garfield in bed, and I almost always hear him busting a gut at least once. Often, he comes running in the room with one of his dozen books, saying I just have to listen to this one.
> undermining the use of sarcasm can be, not just to the person that sarcasm is
> directed towards, but also to the person who is wielding his or her words like
> "toy" weapons.
I used to worry about him reading so much Garfield. He also likes Tom and Jerry, Bugs Bunny, The Far Side, Calvin and Hobbes. I wondered about those too. They seemed like they could have a very negative impression on his behaviour. But, he is truly growing into one of the kindest kids I know. He doesn't allow much real life negative talk around him. He'll ask the person to stop, or he will walk away. Sometimes he will offer another point of view. And yet, sometimes, if he knows the person is willing, he *will* engage in some good natured ribbing. He rarely takes it too far. He seems to know when to stop.
Before I visited my dad recently, I called to tell him I was on my way. He said, "You're not staying for long are you?" and laughed. I knew that meant, "I can't wait to see you."
Maybe sarcasm can be really funny? Maybe sarcasm can allow one to say something they couldn't otherwise say? I'm left wondering if maybe there *is* some value to sarcasm? (Of course, I do not mean to imply that it is okay to be cruel.)
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
""Before I visited my dad recently, I called to tell him I was on my way. He said, "You're not staying for long are you?" and laughed. I knew that meant, "I can't wait to see you."
Maybe sarcasm can be really funny? Maybe sarcasm can allow one to say something they couldn't otherwise say? I'm left wondering if maybe there *is* some value to sarcasm? (Of course, I do not mean to imply that it is okay to be cruel.) ""
I think sarcasm is when there is a passive aggressive undertone or it is plain mean. Playfully playing with words can be funny. It is a very thin line.
From Wikipedia:
Dictionary.com describes the use of sarcasm thus:
In sarcasm, ridicule or mockery is used harshly, often crudely and contemptuously, for destructive purposes. It may be used in an indirect manner, and have the form of irony, as in "What a fine musician you turned out to be!", "It's like you're a whole different person now...", and "Oh... Well then thanks for all the first aid over the years!" or it may be used in the form of a direct statement, "You couldn't play one piece correctly if you had two assistants." The distinctive quality of sarcasm is present in the spoken word and manifested chiefly by vocal intonation ...[9]
Hostile, critical comments may be expressed in an ironic way, such as saying "don't work too hard" to a lazy worker. The use of irony introduces an element of humour which may make the criticism seem more polite and less aggressive. Sarcasm can frequently be unnoticed in print form, oftentimes requiring the intonation or tone of voice to indicate the quip.[citation ne
-=-=-
SO sarcasm would be using those words with a negative intention (being cruel, contemptupous, destructive and plain mean! )and not the intention to be funny or play around!
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Maybe sarcasm can be really funny? Maybe sarcasm can allow one to say something they couldn't otherwise say? I'm left wondering if maybe there *is* some value to sarcasm? (Of course, I do not mean to imply that it is okay to be cruel.) ""
I think sarcasm is when there is a passive aggressive undertone or it is plain mean. Playfully playing with words can be funny. It is a very thin line.
From Wikipedia:
Dictionary.com describes the use of sarcasm thus:
In sarcasm, ridicule or mockery is used harshly, often crudely and contemptuously, for destructive purposes. It may be used in an indirect manner, and have the form of irony, as in "What a fine musician you turned out to be!", "It's like you're a whole different person now...", and "Oh... Well then thanks for all the first aid over the years!" or it may be used in the form of a direct statement, "You couldn't play one piece correctly if you had two assistants." The distinctive quality of sarcasm is present in the spoken word and manifested chiefly by vocal intonation ...[9]
Hostile, critical comments may be expressed in an ironic way, such as saying "don't work too hard" to a lazy worker. The use of irony introduces an element of humour which may make the criticism seem more polite and less aggressive. Sarcasm can frequently be unnoticed in print form, oftentimes requiring the intonation or tone of voice to indicate the quip.[citation ne
-=-=-
SO sarcasm would be using those words with a negative intention (being cruel, contemptupous, destructive and plain mean! )and not the intention to be funny or play around!
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Maybe sarcasm can be really funny? Maybe sarcasm can allow one to say something they couldn't otherwise say? I'm left wondering if maybe there *is* some value to sarcasm? (Of course, I do not mean to imply that it is okay to be cruel.) -=-
Holly had a new handle put on my favorite kitchen knife. It's really wonderful. The woodworker who made the new handle for it put a photo of it on his website, even. It's the third from the bottom, the one that says "Commissioned rehandling of a Serrated Chef's Knife: 13" long. California Pistachio wood handle, partially hidden tang…"
http://www.thorn-creek.com/knives.html
http://sandradodd.blogspot.com/2012/07/a-very-merry-early-birthday-to-me.html
Any of those knives could hurt a person, if used irresponsibly.
If I used a knife every time I wanted to cut something AND every time I wanted to open a package, take out a screw or hammer a nail, I would be misusing that knife.
Some people misuse sarcasm, or justify using it all the time just because there is an occasional time and place where it could be hilarious.
The play Cyrano de Bergerac (modernized as "Roxana" with Steve Martin) has a great scene of sarcasm. And it's literature, theatre. The scene was written for a purpose. But it's also about someone who was shamed and bullied his whole life. Those two things are related in the play, in the movie, and in real life.
Just because I have a knife I really love, with a brand new handle, it doesn't mean I need to choose between never using it and using it all day, every day.
Sandra
Holly had a new handle put on my favorite kitchen knife. It's really wonderful. The woodworker who made the new handle for it put a photo of it on his website, even. It's the third from the bottom, the one that says "Commissioned rehandling of a Serrated Chef's Knife: 13" long. California Pistachio wood handle, partially hidden tang…"
http://www.thorn-creek.com/knives.html
http://sandradodd.blogspot.com/2012/07/a-very-merry-early-birthday-to-me.html
Any of those knives could hurt a person, if used irresponsibly.
If I used a knife every time I wanted to cut something AND every time I wanted to open a package, take out a screw or hammer a nail, I would be misusing that knife.
Some people misuse sarcasm, or justify using it all the time just because there is an occasional time and place where it could be hilarious.
The play Cyrano de Bergerac (modernized as "Roxana" with Steve Martin) has a great scene of sarcasm. And it's literature, theatre. The scene was written for a purpose. But it's also about someone who was shamed and bullied his whole life. Those two things are related in the play, in the movie, and in real life.
Just because I have a knife I really love, with a brand new handle, it doesn't mean I need to choose between never using it and using it all day, every day.
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
-=-The topic of sarcasm is a complex one for me. I'm a deeply sarcastic, cynical and pessimistic person. Many years ago I wasn't. But after an entire childhood enduring severe peer abuse and parents that weren't a soft place to land, my nature has fundamentally changed. I believe those three things have been a coping mechanism for me. I don't like it about myself and I try not to be that way around my kids but I fail frequently.-=-
I hope you're not expecting people in this discussion to say anything like "We understand; take your time."
Cynicism and pessimism are poison to unschooling because they prevent joy and the honest and open exploration of ideas. If you're the sort of person who sees the worst in people, music, movies, art, places, foods or new construction, how can your children learn freely and merrily in the world?
-=-My dad "teased" me constantly in a good natured way up to the day he died. He was a "smart Alec" and so am I. I really do try to confine my sarcasm to that kind of silly teasing but what Sandra has said about lightness and joy has made me re-evaluate how much of that I want to continue.-=-
What if your dad had known other ways to have a good natured relationship with you? What if when he spoke to you it could have been soft and sweet and direct instead of "smart alecky"? Maybe just half time time.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I hope you're not expecting people in this discussion to say anything like "We understand; take your time."
Cynicism and pessimism are poison to unschooling because they prevent joy and the honest and open exploration of ideas. If you're the sort of person who sees the worst in people, music, movies, art, places, foods or new construction, how can your children learn freely and merrily in the world?
-=-My dad "teased" me constantly in a good natured way up to the day he died. He was a "smart Alec" and so am I. I really do try to confine my sarcasm to that kind of silly teasing but what Sandra has said about lightness and joy has made me re-evaluate how much of that I want to continue.-=-
What if your dad had known other ways to have a good natured relationship with you? What if when he spoke to you it could have been soft and sweet and direct instead of "smart alecky"? Maybe just half time time.
Sandra
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emstrength3
=======
That sounds like an indication of a really good relationship with your dad. You know without a doubt that he really wants to see you, even when he says otherwise. In some families, those exact same words would be a passive aggressive way of saying "don't come at all," or a direct way of saying, "don't stay too long." In some families, those few words would lead to an argument or a week's worth of playing guessing games about what he really meant.
I used to really pride myself on being sarcastic. At some point I realized that my ability to shred people up one side and down the other with my words wasn't a good thing.
A few times recently, people have been sarcastic in a teasing, playful way with my 6 year old and 4 year old, and they both got a funny look on their faces and asked me privately, "Why did he say that? What did that mean?" I told them that it was called sarcasm and some people think it's funny. They thought that was pretty weird. At some point I guess they'll have to pick up on those nuances of interaction, but for now I'm glad that I stopped using sarcasm while they were young enough that they don't even recognize it or understand it.
Emily
> Before I visited my dad recently, I called to tell him I was on my way. He said, "You're not staying for long are you?" and laughed. I knew that meant, "I can't wait to see you."=========
>
> Maybe sarcasm can be really funny? Maybe sarcasm can allow one to say something they couldn't otherwise say? I'm left wondering if maybe there *is* some value to sarcasm? (Of course, I do not mean to imply that it is okay to be cruel.)
That sounds like an indication of a really good relationship with your dad. You know without a doubt that he really wants to see you, even when he says otherwise. In some families, those exact same words would be a passive aggressive way of saying "don't come at all," or a direct way of saying, "don't stay too long." In some families, those few words would lead to an argument or a week's worth of playing guessing games about what he really meant.
I used to really pride myself on being sarcastic. At some point I realized that my ability to shred people up one side and down the other with my words wasn't a good thing.
A few times recently, people have been sarcastic in a teasing, playful way with my 6 year old and 4 year old, and they both got a funny look on their faces and asked me privately, "Why did he say that? What did that mean?" I told them that it was called sarcasm and some people think it's funny. They thought that was pretty weird. At some point I guess they'll have to pick up on those nuances of interaction, but for now I'm glad that I stopped using sarcasm while they were young enough that they don't even recognize it or understand it.
Emily