the food thing
Shauna
Hello,
One of my main struggles in my own personal life, as well as in my parenting life is the food thing. From my children's first bites, I thought how can I raise them with a healthy outlook on food and not use it emotionally and all the things that go with that. I asked my unschooling parent mentor what she did (whose teen age sons I had observed having wonderful interesting palates by the way). And she did the normal unschooling thing-- had relatively healthy food in the house and let them eat what they want.. m and ms for breakfast? OK. Dessert first at the restaurant? Sure. etc...
So I do try to do this, but have battles with myself all the time around it and end up restricting sugar, not all the time, but when the sugar thing gets out of hand. It's so obvious as I write this what your response will even be-- that by restricting sugar at all through their young childhoods (they are 4 and 6) I've set up a forbidden fruit element, and that's why they love it so much. My unschool mentor mama friend watches my girls sometimes and says that my kids do seem more attracted to sugar than her boys were.
I don't really restrict it that much though-- compared to my traditional friends-- my children get to go hog wild. It's the soda that just makes me sick to let them drink. And of course they like it. And I let them drink it, and I just cringe most of the time, because i view soda as poison. I don't buy it for the house, but we are out frequently enough that they have a lot of access to it. Here is a question: if at the heart of unschooling is our RELATIONSHIPS with our children, Do you think it fair for me to be honest with them-- that it makes me crazy to let them have this thing that I think is really yuckky for them all the time? that i just see poison going into their bodies when they drink it? (that's how I feel, and believe basically when it comes to food- about sodas at least). I'm not sure that unschooling means suspending your entire belief system so that your children can do whatever they want. So how do I find a balance in this? This is what i've been doing more recently, letting them have it as much as they want, and talking about my feelings about it. and including in that-- I know you love it, so I'm letting you have it so that you can figure out when enough is enough...and sometimes saying nothing at all-- just what do you want to drink? and letting them pick.
I love the stories on Sandra's website of unrestricted sugar eaters eating cucumbers, etc...and I do notice that when they have had enough they tend to stop.. But their enough seems like an awfully high percentage of their diet. See how I struggle around this?
I'm sure this is common, and has been discussed a zillion times here, but it might be a nice discussion for all the newer subscribers to this list.
By the way, I love the Weston Price way of eating, if anyone is familiar with it-- the belief in eating the way traditional peoples did.. fermented grains, lots of grassfed meat, pastured eggs, farmers market fruit and veggies... this is how I would feed my family all the time, if I was never out and about;it's what I philosophically subscribe to. But we are real out and abouters. And they never seem to want the food I bring when we are out.
I want to post about this on my blog too, since it's a biggie for me, so I hope it's ok if some of your comments end up on my blog--- If you don't want me to post just say no blog somewhere in your post, and I won't do it.
http://flyingkitesatnight.wordpress.com/
Thanks, Shauna
PS I guess Sandra you are in Holland, I didn't see that post before sending the "why haven't I gotten a daily digest in a couple days?" wish I could unsend!
One of my main struggles in my own personal life, as well as in my parenting life is the food thing. From my children's first bites, I thought how can I raise them with a healthy outlook on food and not use it emotionally and all the things that go with that. I asked my unschooling parent mentor what she did (whose teen age sons I had observed having wonderful interesting palates by the way). And she did the normal unschooling thing-- had relatively healthy food in the house and let them eat what they want.. m and ms for breakfast? OK. Dessert first at the restaurant? Sure. etc...
So I do try to do this, but have battles with myself all the time around it and end up restricting sugar, not all the time, but when the sugar thing gets out of hand. It's so obvious as I write this what your response will even be-- that by restricting sugar at all through their young childhoods (they are 4 and 6) I've set up a forbidden fruit element, and that's why they love it so much. My unschool mentor mama friend watches my girls sometimes and says that my kids do seem more attracted to sugar than her boys were.
I don't really restrict it that much though-- compared to my traditional friends-- my children get to go hog wild. It's the soda that just makes me sick to let them drink. And of course they like it. And I let them drink it, and I just cringe most of the time, because i view soda as poison. I don't buy it for the house, but we are out frequently enough that they have a lot of access to it. Here is a question: if at the heart of unschooling is our RELATIONSHIPS with our children, Do you think it fair for me to be honest with them-- that it makes me crazy to let them have this thing that I think is really yuckky for them all the time? that i just see poison going into their bodies when they drink it? (that's how I feel, and believe basically when it comes to food- about sodas at least). I'm not sure that unschooling means suspending your entire belief system so that your children can do whatever they want. So how do I find a balance in this? This is what i've been doing more recently, letting them have it as much as they want, and talking about my feelings about it. and including in that-- I know you love it, so I'm letting you have it so that you can figure out when enough is enough...and sometimes saying nothing at all-- just what do you want to drink? and letting them pick.
I love the stories on Sandra's website of unrestricted sugar eaters eating cucumbers, etc...and I do notice that when they have had enough they tend to stop.. But their enough seems like an awfully high percentage of their diet. See how I struggle around this?
I'm sure this is common, and has been discussed a zillion times here, but it might be a nice discussion for all the newer subscribers to this list.
By the way, I love the Weston Price way of eating, if anyone is familiar with it-- the belief in eating the way traditional peoples did.. fermented grains, lots of grassfed meat, pastured eggs, farmers market fruit and veggies... this is how I would feed my family all the time, if I was never out and about;it's what I philosophically subscribe to. But we are real out and abouters. And they never seem to want the food I bring when we are out.
I want to post about this on my blog too, since it's a biggie for me, so I hope it's ok if some of your comments end up on my blog--- If you don't want me to post just say no blog somewhere in your post, and I won't do it.
http://flyingkitesatnight.wordpress.com/
Thanks, Shauna
PS I guess Sandra you are in Holland, I didn't see that post before sending the "why haven't I gotten a daily digest in a couple days?" wish I could unsend!
Meredith
"Shauna" <shaunareisewitz@...> wrote:
At the heart of unschooling is the fact that learning is a natural human drive. Warm, supportive relationships help set the stage for a free flow of natural learning.
You've made a rule in your head about "the food thing" and backed yourself into a corner where you can't win - either you grit your teeth and let them eat cake, as it were, or you turn into the bully for your own peace of mind. That's why it's better to ease in to unschooling. In retrospect, it would have been better to rigidly regulate what your kids ate and changed slowly, as you're understanding change - or even changed quickly when you found your relationship shaky because of your rules. Now you have a shaky relationship because of a rule, anyway. Dang.
It makes no sense at all to knowingly give people you love poison). If you honestly think you're poisoning your kids, stop. It's insane. The only reason to knowingly ingest poison is to kill off a disease which is worse - and even then it's an ugly option.
That being said, are they suffering? Are they lackluster and ill? If they aren't, then it's worth questioning this idea you have that you're allowing them to poison themselves. Where does that idea come from? Why are you clinging to it? You don't have to answer that here, I mean for you to look at your children and ask yourself if they look poisoned.
Bodies are different. Some people need a lot of foods which aren't healthy to other people - it's not possible to make sweeping statements about healthy foods. For instance, dark leafy greens are one of the worst foods I can eat... especially if they're raw. They play havoc with my digestive tract. My partner loves them - could eat them every meal and be happier and happier. That's one of the reasons why it's helpful to support kids as they explore different foods - you, the parent have No better idea what's good for them than they do beforehand.
I like a good bit of sugar and fat. My health is best when I get lots of wheat, lots of dairy, and lots of sweets. It was worst when I was trying out vegan and raw foods. Maybe your kids are like me.
If controlling what your kids eat will let you be a better, warmer, softer, more peaceful parent in all other ways, it may be worth the tradeoff. Or it may set you up for a lot of fights. It would be better if you could learn from your real life experiences and adapt to the needs of your kids, rather than creating rules which set you up to fail.
---Meredith
> Here is a question: if at the heart of unschooling is our RELATIONSHIPS with our children, Do you think it fair for me to be honest with them-- that it makes me crazy to let them have this thing that I think is really yuckky for them all the time? that i just see poison going into their bodies when they drink it?****************
At the heart of unschooling is the fact that learning is a natural human drive. Warm, supportive relationships help set the stage for a free flow of natural learning.
You've made a rule in your head about "the food thing" and backed yourself into a corner where you can't win - either you grit your teeth and let them eat cake, as it were, or you turn into the bully for your own peace of mind. That's why it's better to ease in to unschooling. In retrospect, it would have been better to rigidly regulate what your kids ate and changed slowly, as you're understanding change - or even changed quickly when you found your relationship shaky because of your rules. Now you have a shaky relationship because of a rule, anyway. Dang.
>> I think is really yuckky for them all the time? that i just see poison going into their bodies***************
It makes no sense at all to knowingly give people you love poison). If you honestly think you're poisoning your kids, stop. It's insane. The only reason to knowingly ingest poison is to kill off a disease which is worse - and even then it's an ugly option.
That being said, are they suffering? Are they lackluster and ill? If they aren't, then it's worth questioning this idea you have that you're allowing them to poison themselves. Where does that idea come from? Why are you clinging to it? You don't have to answer that here, I mean for you to look at your children and ask yourself if they look poisoned.
>>My unschool mentor mama friend watches my girls sometimes and says that my kids do seem more attracted to sugar than her boys were.****************
Bodies are different. Some people need a lot of foods which aren't healthy to other people - it's not possible to make sweeping statements about healthy foods. For instance, dark leafy greens are one of the worst foods I can eat... especially if they're raw. They play havoc with my digestive tract. My partner loves them - could eat them every meal and be happier and happier. That's one of the reasons why it's helpful to support kids as they explore different foods - you, the parent have No better idea what's good for them than they do beforehand.
I like a good bit of sugar and fat. My health is best when I get lots of wheat, lots of dairy, and lots of sweets. It was worst when I was trying out vegan and raw foods. Maybe your kids are like me.
If controlling what your kids eat will let you be a better, warmer, softer, more peaceful parent in all other ways, it may be worth the tradeoff. Or it may set you up for a lot of fights. It would be better if you could learn from your real life experiences and adapt to the needs of your kids, rather than creating rules which set you up to fail.
---Meredith
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jun 29, 2012, at 12:18 PM, Shauna wrote:
It could be their metabolisms are different than you're friends kids so they need more concentrated calories to fuel them.
Attachment sounds mechanical. It suggests a need to detach.
How about calling it seem to like it more?
How would you feel the next time you watched one of your shows? Wouldn't you feel waves of judgement coming from him? That he's watching and weighing you, that you were coming up short in his eyes?
It may have been in the "unconditional love" thread that someone pointed out that kids have a hard time separating themselves from what they do. So being told you don't like something they like it's received the same as saying you don't like them.
Your kids aren't adults. They're dependent on your support and you liking who they are. Telling a child you don't like x about them isn't going to be taken the same way a friend would.
There are social conventions that help us all live more peacefully together, being polite, kind, respectful and so forth. It's not doing them any favors to not pass those onto kids.
But personal beliefs are personal. The more negative impact your beliefs have on their lives, the less they'll find them attractive.
Do you talk to your kids like that about water drinking? Coloring? Playing with stuffed animals?
Would you let them color as much as they wanted and talk about your personal negative feelings about coloring? Would you tell them "I know you love it, so I'm letting you have your crayons and coloring books so you can figure out when enough is enough."
It's not only ick, but sounds like incredible nonsense.
And not only that but they have tiny stomachs to put the fuel in.
So how much of the needs of an adult body have to do with a child's body?
Their tastes will change as their bodies change and their bodies' needs change. They may enjoy what you enjoy some day, but the more pressure and guilt you put on them to like it or stop like what they like, the less likely they'll be drawn to it because of the negative emotions they'll associate with it.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> the food thingHow about calling it eating?
> by restricting sugar at all through their young childhoodsIt could be they have a sweet tooth. Don't expect all kids -- or all people -- to have the same desire for sugar.
> (they are 4 and 6) I've set up a forbidden fruit element, and
> that's why they love it so much
It could be their metabolisms are different than you're friends kids so they need more concentrated calories to fuel them.
> my kids do seem more attracted to sugarDidn't we just have a discussion of attachment? ;-)
Attachment sounds mechanical. It suggests a need to detach.
How about calling it seem to like it more?
> I don't really restrict it that much though-- compared to my traditional friendsIt's not your friends whose judgement on whether it's a little or a lot that counts. It's your kids. Even if *you* perceive it as not much, if your kids perceive it differently, then that's what's real for them.
> my children get to go hog wild.They shouldn't be going hog wild. They should be eating.
> I don't buy it for the house, but we are out frequentlyIf they're going "hog wild" when out, then if they had it at home they wouldn't see it as something so precious. There are lots of natural sodas and bubbly waters that are flavored. You can go "hog wild" exploring.
> enough that they have a lot of access to it.
> Do you think it fair for me to be honest with them--Would it improve your relationship with your husband if he told you that it made him crazy to let you watch the type of TV shows you watched or books you read, that he thought they were poisoning your mind, that they're yuckky for you?
> that it makes me crazy to let them have this thing that
> I think is really yuckky for them all the time? that i just
> see poison going into their bodies when they drink it?
How would you feel the next time you watched one of your shows? Wouldn't you feel waves of judgement coming from him? That he's watching and weighing you, that you were coming up short in his eyes?
> if at the heart of unschooling is our RELATIONSHIPS with our children,So what are you defining as relationship? Do you mean reveal whatever you feel?
It may have been in the "unconditional love" thread that someone pointed out that kids have a hard time separating themselves from what they do. So being told you don't like something they like it's received the same as saying you don't like them.
Your kids aren't adults. They're dependent on your support and you liking who they are. Telling a child you don't like x about them isn't going to be taken the same way a friend would.
> I'm not sure that unschooling means suspending yourWhere have you read anyone say something like that? Entire belief system? Do whatever they want?
> entire belief system so that your children can do whatever they want.
There are social conventions that help us all live more peacefully together, being polite, kind, respectful and so forth. It's not doing them any favors to not pass those onto kids.
But personal beliefs are personal. The more negative impact your beliefs have on their lives, the less they'll find them attractive.
> letting them have it as much as they want, and talking about myAnd how would that sound coming from your husband. Would it feel like he was waiting for you to stop when *he* thought you should stop?
> feelings about it. and including in that-- I know you love it, so I'm
> letting you have it so that you can figure out when enough is enough
Do you talk to your kids like that about water drinking? Coloring? Playing with stuffed animals?
Would you let them color as much as they wanted and talk about your personal negative feelings about coloring? Would you tell them "I know you love it, so I'm letting you have your crayons and coloring books so you can figure out when enough is enough."
It's not only ick, but sounds like incredible nonsense.
> But their enough seems like an awfully high percentage of their diet.They aren't adults. They're 4 and 6 and in the next 6 years their body mass is likely to go up by 50% to 100% of what it is currently. They're likely to gain nearly a foot in height. Is your body going to do that?
And not only that but they have tiny stomachs to put the fuel in.
So how much of the needs of an adult body have to do with a child's body?
> By the way, I love the Weston Price way of eatingThere are vegetarians who manage to continue eating vegetarian while also supporting their kids freely and guilt-free exploring to discovering what's right for them.
> they never seem to want the food I bring when we are out.Their tastes are their tastes. And your tastes are your tastes. If your husband loved vegemite sandwiches and beet soup, would there be something wrong with you if you didn't? Would there maybe be something wrong with him if he kept packing them, expecting you to enjoy them? (True, that's a limited choice. But from your kids' points of view, the choices, no matter how broad in your eyes, are limited in theirs. To them as limited as vegemite sandwiches and beet soup.)
Their tastes will change as their bodies change and their bodies' needs change. They may enjoy what you enjoy some day, but the more pressure and guilt you put on them to like it or stop like what they like, the less likely they'll be drawn to it because of the negative emotions they'll associate with it.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=- I'm not sure that unschooling means suspending your entire belief system...-=-
If your belief system is at odds with what will make unschooling workable in your life, you'll need to make a choice.
If your belief system can't be expanded or adjusted to allow you to believe in natural learning of things beyond academic subject matter, you won't be able to unschool.
-=-they never seem to want the food I bring when we are out. -=-
If you want them to eat the food you take, only take food they will want to eat.
-=-... but when the sugar thing gets out of hand-=-
-=-my children get to go hog wild...-=-
You're using other people's words.
That means you're parroting other people's words.
That means you're making vague reference to other people's thoughts.
http://sandradodd.com/phrases
Rephrase those things--not for us, but for yourself, as you're trying to untangle your tangled thoughts. It will help you, when you think in phrases that are not your individually-strung-together words, to rephrase in your own words.
-=-I love the stories on Sandra's website of unrestricted sugar eaters eating cucumbers, etc..
"UNRESTRICTED SUGAR EATERS!?
Is that the way you think of my children? As "sugar eaters"?
-=-....and I do notice that when they have had enough they tend to stop.. But their enough seems like an awfully high percentage of their diet. See how I struggle around this?-=-
"When they have had enough they tend to stop" is a contradiction. If they haven't stopped, they haven't had enough. There is no "trend." There is stopping when one has had enough.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
If your belief system is at odds with what will make unschooling workable in your life, you'll need to make a choice.
If your belief system can't be expanded or adjusted to allow you to believe in natural learning of things beyond academic subject matter, you won't be able to unschool.
-=-they never seem to want the food I bring when we are out. -=-
If you want them to eat the food you take, only take food they will want to eat.
-=-... but when the sugar thing gets out of hand-=-
-=-my children get to go hog wild...-=-
You're using other people's words.
That means you're parroting other people's words.
That means you're making vague reference to other people's thoughts.
http://sandradodd.com/phrases
Rephrase those things--not for us, but for yourself, as you're trying to untangle your tangled thoughts. It will help you, when you think in phrases that are not your individually-strung-together words, to rephrase in your own words.
-=-I love the stories on Sandra's website of unrestricted sugar eaters eating cucumbers, etc..
"UNRESTRICTED SUGAR EATERS!?
Is that the way you think of my children? As "sugar eaters"?
-=-....and I do notice that when they have had enough they tend to stop.. But their enough seems like an awfully high percentage of their diet. See how I struggle around this?-=-
"When they have had enough they tend to stop" is a contradiction. If they haven't stopped, they haven't had enough. There is no "trend." There is stopping when one has had enough.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
> > they never seem to want the food I bring when we are out.Never? Then why do you keep doing it? Do you pay attention to what they DO
like and bring that?
My kids drank water, usually, when we were out. But that was because of
money - I told them we could eat out a whole lot more if they didn't order
drinks every time, and it became the default to get water. Special meals
out - birthday celebrations - were times to order drinks. Other times when
we were just having lunch while we happened to be out - we just got water.
They do think of soda as special, even now in their 20's they don't drink
it with meals - but will occasionally purposely go buy one.
There is a difference between not having arbitrary limits and feeling
required to offer unlimited access.
I don't think large quantities of soda are very good for young bodies
either, but I think restricting them in inconsistent and seemingly
arbitrary ways is more harmful.
Also - coming back after having already told the kids how you feel like
they are drinking poison - that is tough and complicates the situation.
Hard to be light and breezy about it after that.
A good suggestion is to make it EXTREMELY plentiful - at home especially.
That's the only way to really make a big huge shift in how you respond to
it. So - for a year, say, maybe decide to have as much of it at home ALL
the time as they could possibly want. Support that interest in a big way.
Get all kinds of sodas - in fact, get one of those make-your-own soda
machines - SodaStream - those are really cool.
(If you ever go to Las Vegas, go to the Coca-Cola store and order the
international tasting tray full of sodas from all over the world.) Have you
OWN taste tests at home - compare pepsi to coke!
Being generous and helping kids feel like they live in a world of plenty -
is very very gratifying. If you can switch your mindset away from the fear,
you'll be happier and so will they. AND in a relaxed and happy household,
you can have a lot more influence and long-term beneficial effect on their
lifelong habits, anyway. In my family, I'd never made soda seem like a big
deal, so the kids didn't take it as a big deal that we didn't buy drinks
when we were eating out. If you restricted them now, like that, they would
feel it as being restrictive. So - that's why I say - just look ahead for
the next year and be as generous and supportive as you can be. See how that
goes.
One of my 23 year old college students just told me a big story about how
his mom raised him on all kinds of super healthy foods - and she was very
strict about it. He said he had to drink a green smoothie every morning,
like it or not. And he wasn't allowed any soda or fast food - ever.
So - he came here to go to college and, in HIS words, "I went wild with
food." He said he made it a point never to eat anything healthy - he ate a
lot at Del Taco, he said. And he drank lots of soda. He was very aware of
how this was all in reaction to how restricted he'd felt all his life...he
said he felt guilty all the time because he knew how unhappy his mom would
be, too.
Soda will be a part of your kids lives - that's reality. Try not to make it
such a big deal - try to treat it lightheartedly.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
teresa
What if there were a way to kind of feel your way back into your comfort zone with food while still helping them to feel the abundance and joy of sharing something tasty and fun?
Blue Sky makes soda made without preservatives and with cane sugar. What if you kept your fridge stocked with those? I don't happen to like soda, but I do like soda water, so sometimes I'll buy the lime-flavored soda water and my kids love to share "mom's soda" with me, even when we have other choices such as cola or rootbeer. We have experimented, too, with water kefir soda--we spent a good couple of weeks making delicious flavor combinations. That turned into another couple of weeks of making homemade popsicle combinations. Just last night my older boy thought to use yogurt as a base, so now they're yogurt-fruit pops.
This isn't addressing your difficult and conflicting feelings about their food, but something like this could be a start toward rebuilding a positive, learning-based, "neutral" (rather than judge-y, if that's how it feels now) environment around eating.
My son asked me today why, when we travel, we don't ever eat at McDonald's even though there's always a McDonald's around. What went through my head first was a statement about how low McDonald's is on the totem pole of nutrition and ethical eating. But he's 6. That's heavy for him, and it's based on my politics and my ideas. What would I be accomplishing by telling him that? He'd feel weird about McD's. He'd feel weird about the McD's commercials he sees on TV. He'd feel weird about seeing his friends eat McD's foods. And he'd probably feel weird about telling me his real feelings, that he's curious about it and wants to give it a try. I wasn't willing to put that on him.
I told him that when we travel, I prefer to pack our food so it's handy when we're hungry and so we have more choices and to save money. And I said stopping at a grocery store instead of fast food helped with the choice and money thing. But I asked him if he'd like to try McDonald's soon. He said he would. He wants to try a burger. (This was a test of my commitment--I was prepared to be OK with fries, but he went all the way in with it!) So, we are going to try a burger. I am going to have one, too. I am going to eat it with him remembering being a kid and thinking how tasty that burger was to me and how nice it was to sit in a bright McDonald's with my dad and sister and share delicious food and play with our kid's meal toys.
But here's the thing: I was raised with McDonald's being a perfectly acceptable choice for dinner on any given night, and yet, it has been more than a decade since I've eaten there. I just ended up...not liking it.
I'm a Weston-Price fan, too, and reading his studies about diet and human evolution is compelling. But here's what I came to see: the people he studied were living in cultures that were either hunter-gatherer, moving away from hunter-gatherer, or well-removed from hunter-gatherer. Like it or not, we live in the well-removed society. I don't know that it makes much sense for us to raise our kids as if meats, nuts, seeds, fruits, and vegetables were the only choices; that's not the reality that we or they live in. It seems to me that we need a new strategy to raise our kids to be physically healthy and have healthy ideas about food, given the array of possibilities, and that strategy might well be to help them learn how to listen to their bodies. They can't do that without experimentation, and experimentation will, by nature, involve plenty of variety. That's good news! That means all the nutrient-dense stuff will be there among the less-nutrient-dense stuff! They'll get some of everything. They'll learn how to make choices that make sense for their bodies, and eventually, for their politics, budgets, ideas about nutrition, etc. That can be something to feel really good about!
Teresa
Mama to Woody, 6 1/2, and Fox, 3 1/2
Blue Sky makes soda made without preservatives and with cane sugar. What if you kept your fridge stocked with those? I don't happen to like soda, but I do like soda water, so sometimes I'll buy the lime-flavored soda water and my kids love to share "mom's soda" with me, even when we have other choices such as cola or rootbeer. We have experimented, too, with water kefir soda--we spent a good couple of weeks making delicious flavor combinations. That turned into another couple of weeks of making homemade popsicle combinations. Just last night my older boy thought to use yogurt as a base, so now they're yogurt-fruit pops.
This isn't addressing your difficult and conflicting feelings about their food, but something like this could be a start toward rebuilding a positive, learning-based, "neutral" (rather than judge-y, if that's how it feels now) environment around eating.
My son asked me today why, when we travel, we don't ever eat at McDonald's even though there's always a McDonald's around. What went through my head first was a statement about how low McDonald's is on the totem pole of nutrition and ethical eating. But he's 6. That's heavy for him, and it's based on my politics and my ideas. What would I be accomplishing by telling him that? He'd feel weird about McD's. He'd feel weird about the McD's commercials he sees on TV. He'd feel weird about seeing his friends eat McD's foods. And he'd probably feel weird about telling me his real feelings, that he's curious about it and wants to give it a try. I wasn't willing to put that on him.
I told him that when we travel, I prefer to pack our food so it's handy when we're hungry and so we have more choices and to save money. And I said stopping at a grocery store instead of fast food helped with the choice and money thing. But I asked him if he'd like to try McDonald's soon. He said he would. He wants to try a burger. (This was a test of my commitment--I was prepared to be OK with fries, but he went all the way in with it!) So, we are going to try a burger. I am going to have one, too. I am going to eat it with him remembering being a kid and thinking how tasty that burger was to me and how nice it was to sit in a bright McDonald's with my dad and sister and share delicious food and play with our kid's meal toys.
But here's the thing: I was raised with McDonald's being a perfectly acceptable choice for dinner on any given night, and yet, it has been more than a decade since I've eaten there. I just ended up...not liking it.
I'm a Weston-Price fan, too, and reading his studies about diet and human evolution is compelling. But here's what I came to see: the people he studied were living in cultures that were either hunter-gatherer, moving away from hunter-gatherer, or well-removed from hunter-gatherer. Like it or not, we live in the well-removed society. I don't know that it makes much sense for us to raise our kids as if meats, nuts, seeds, fruits, and vegetables were the only choices; that's not the reality that we or they live in. It seems to me that we need a new strategy to raise our kids to be physically healthy and have healthy ideas about food, given the array of possibilities, and that strategy might well be to help them learn how to listen to their bodies. They can't do that without experimentation, and experimentation will, by nature, involve plenty of variety. That's good news! That means all the nutrient-dense stuff will be there among the less-nutrient-dense stuff! They'll get some of everything. They'll learn how to make choices that make sense for their bodies, and eventually, for their politics, budgets, ideas about nutrition, etc. That can be something to feel really good about!
Teresa
Mama to Woody, 6 1/2, and Fox, 3 1/2
--- In [email protected], "Meredith" <plaidpanties666@...> wrote:
>
> "Shauna" <shaunareisewitz@> wrote:
> > Here is a question: if at the heart of unschooling is our RELATIONSHIPS with our children, Do you think it fair for me to be honest with them-- that it makes me crazy to let them have this thing that I think is really yuckky for them all the time? that i just see poison going into their bodies when they drink it?
> ****************
>
> At the heart of unschooling is the fact that learning is a natural human drive. Warm, supportive relationships help set the stage for a free flow of natural learning.
>
> You've made a rule in your head about "the food thing" and backed yourself into a corner where you can't win - either you grit your teeth and let them eat cake, as it were, or you turn into the bully for your own peace of mind. That's why it's better to ease in to unschooling. In retrospect, it would have been better to rigidly regulate what your kids ate and changed slowly, as you're understanding change - or even changed quickly when you found your relationship shaky because of your rules. Now you have a shaky relationship because of a rule, anyway. Dang.
>
> >> I think is really yuckky for them all the time? that i just see poison going into their bodies
> ***************
>
> It makes no sense at all to knowingly give people you love poison). If you honestly think you're poisoning your kids, stop. It's insane. The only reason to knowingly ingest poison is to kill off a disease which is worse - and even then it's an ugly option.
>
> That being said, are they suffering? Are they lackluster and ill? If they aren't, then it's worth questioning this idea you have that you're allowing them to poison themselves. Where does that idea come from? Why are you clinging to it? You don't have to answer that here, I mean for you to look at your children and ask yourself if they look poisoned.
>
> >>My unschool mentor mama friend watches my girls sometimes and says that my kids do seem more attracted to sugar than her boys were.
> ****************
>
> Bodies are different. Some people need a lot of foods which aren't healthy to other people - it's not possible to make sweeping statements about healthy foods. For instance, dark leafy greens are one of the worst foods I can eat... especially if they're raw. They play havoc with my digestive tract. My partner loves them - could eat them every meal and be happier and happier. That's one of the reasons why it's helpful to support kids as they explore different foods - you, the parent have No better idea what's good for them than they do beforehand.
>
> I like a good bit of sugar and fat. My health is best when I get lots of wheat, lots of dairy, and lots of sweets. It was worst when I was trying out vegan and raw foods. Maybe your kids are like me.
>
> If controlling what your kids eat will let you be a better, warmer, softer, more peaceful parent in all other ways, it may be worth the tradeoff. Or it may set you up for a lot of fights. It would be better if you could learn from your real life experiences and adapt to the needs of your kids, rather than creating rules which set you up to fail.
>
> ---Meredith
>
Schuyler
>>but when the sugar thing gets out of hand.<<
Out of hand is an interesting statement. It is completely qualitative, it is without measure, it is a subjective assessment. How 'bout, on days when I'm feeling fearful, or in moments when I'm tired and reactive, or in moments when my perception is skewed after having remembered reading the book about how sugar is poison I limit sugar. Or, even, since you've said it is mostly when you are out and about that your girls are exposed to foods that make you feel less comfortable, on days when we've been busy and I'm feeling flustered and scattered and I leap to judge my children's choices more easily I limit their food choices. The point of an assessment being subjective is that it is your perception that is changing the assessment, not, necessarily, the amount of sugar being consumed.
Linnaea really likes soda. She has really liked soda for much of her 12 years. She can drink a lot of soda in a day. With plenty of soda around to drink, she drinks plenty. She doesn't really like water. But she likes milk and soy milk and tea and coffee and juices. We have a Soda Stream and lots of flavours of syrup which changed her soda choices from coke and sprite to apple and blackberry and pomegranate and pear and other flavours. The Soda Stream changed my soda palate as well. But it didn't push her away from soda, it just broadened her choice set. And if we are out where there aren't nice soda flavours available, she will have a coke or a sprite. And I don't really think about it. It is her food intake and not mine. It is her relationship with food and not mine.
>>I love the Weston Price way of eating<<
It may help to broaden your perspective to read Richard Wrangham's book Catching Fire: How Cooking Made Us Human. Or Gregory Cochran's and Henry Harpending's amazing book the Ten Thousand Year Explosion which talks about the nature of evolution in humans. There is a whole section on the rapid evolution that humans have done in relation to
agriculture and thus to diet. It may or may not change your perspective, but it might widen your view. It may be more helpful to think about the things folks strive eating and fail at eating. As Meredith mentioned her own difficulties with a raw, leafy diet, there are probably other people that you know who would struggle to maintain a comfortable life on the Weston Price diet. People are very much not one size fits all, a perspective that is changing medicine in lots of ways.
Schuyler
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Sandra Dodd
-=->>but when the sugar thing gets out of hand.<<
-=-Out of hand is an interesting statement. It is completely qualitative, it is without measure, it is a subjective assessment. -=-
It's not so subjective if you think of its opposite, "in hand."
To have things in hand is to be directly controlling of them. The reins of a horse--having a horse in hand, as opposed to a horse getting out of hand. The "reins" of a situation, where one has it "in hand" (can literally manipulate--to move it about with his hand).
When something is "out of hand," it means the speaker, or someone who wants to control the speaker, considers that someone or something else has gotten out of the control of the one who should be controlling.
In the absence of the desire to control, things can't get "out of hand."
http://sandradodd.com/control
This is not to say I don't think parents should keep their kids safe and sociable, polite and non-destructive. But there are ways to do that without being controlling to the extent that they don't have choices and options.
Sandra
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-=-Out of hand is an interesting statement. It is completely qualitative, it is without measure, it is a subjective assessment. -=-
It's not so subjective if you think of its opposite, "in hand."
To have things in hand is to be directly controlling of them. The reins of a horse--having a horse in hand, as opposed to a horse getting out of hand. The "reins" of a situation, where one has it "in hand" (can literally manipulate--to move it about with his hand).
When something is "out of hand," it means the speaker, or someone who wants to control the speaker, considers that someone or something else has gotten out of the control of the one who should be controlling.
In the absence of the desire to control, things can't get "out of hand."
http://sandradodd.com/control
This is not to say I don't think parents should keep their kids safe and sociable, polite and non-destructive. But there are ways to do that without being controlling to the extent that they don't have choices and options.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tori
--- In [email protected], "Shauna" <shaunareisewitz@...> wrote:
Tori
>This comment struck me as interesting. I agree with Sandra's comment that it's incredibly useful to pack things you know they'll like, but there's also another aspect of eating that's relevant here. My kids (both 5 yrs) are curious eaters and want to try to new foods, new situations and will often ask for something other than what they already know. They'll even choose the food brought to the park by friends when it is exactly the same thing as we brought! I always pack food including sweets of some kind or special surprises, but figure if they go uneaten some will keep, others will be eaten by me, the dog, the chickens or the compost. I'm happy that my kids know I'll support their explorations.
>
> But we are real out and abouters. And they never seem to want the food I bring when we are out.
>
>
Tori
Shauna Reisewitz
All very interesting and a lot of food for thought. Thank you.
It's a very good exercise writing in this group to be so careful of word choice. I have a fairly casual way of writing and speaking and use terms like "food thing, going hog wild, out of hand, nonrestricted sugar eaters, etc.." conversationally all the time-- it's part of my sense of humor and personality.. Its a good reminder when writing to a group of people who don't know you and who you don't know to be careful with word choice and say exactly what I mean. Always learning!
For the record, what I meant by unrestricted sugar eaters was children who had an unrestricted access to sugar. _Unrestricted being the key word. I found the stories on Sanrda's blog inspirational, and see and know and have even seen in my own children at times that when children have unrestricted access to sugar, they often make healthy choices as well or in lieu of the sweet choice.
I find eating HFCS and trans fat laden foods the biggest obstacle to me. They are not foods I want to offer around the house, nor do I love seeing them go into my children's bodies. I do have to say that when we are out and about and those types of foods are readily accessible, when they ask, I generally say yes. And I'm usually the kind of parent at the potluck or birthday party who says sure go ahead to that second, third, 8th cupcake or donut hole, if there is enough for everyone that is. (I think Abena at 2 ate about 12 donut holes one time when we were in one of those situations!-- that's still a fun , joyful memory to me)
I didn't quite understand Sandras comment .If your belief system is at odds with what will make unschooling workable in your life, you'll need to make a choice.
If your belief system can't be expanded or adjusted to allow you to believe in natural learning of things beyond academic subject matter, you won't be able to unschool.
If my belief is that whole real food is the best thing for growing bodies, and I seek to to provide that mostly at home, while allowing my children access to the rest of it when we are out and about, is that incompatible with unschooling? Is it the internal dialog with myself that is incompatible?
I guess what I've gleaned from your responses is to enjoy it with them when they want that kind of food, don't put a judgmental spin on it. It was helpful to compare what I would say to them to if my husband said similar things to me.
I loved the idea of making our own sodas. We already have a cotton candy and snow cone machine-- it will be fun to add soda to the mix!
Thanks for your thoughtful responses. It's all helpful.
Shauna
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
It's a very good exercise writing in this group to be so careful of word choice. I have a fairly casual way of writing and speaking and use terms like "food thing, going hog wild, out of hand, nonrestricted sugar eaters, etc.." conversationally all the time-- it's part of my sense of humor and personality.. Its a good reminder when writing to a group of people who don't know you and who you don't know to be careful with word choice and say exactly what I mean. Always learning!
For the record, what I meant by unrestricted sugar eaters was children who had an unrestricted access to sugar. _Unrestricted being the key word. I found the stories on Sanrda's blog inspirational, and see and know and have even seen in my own children at times that when children have unrestricted access to sugar, they often make healthy choices as well or in lieu of the sweet choice.
I find eating HFCS and trans fat laden foods the biggest obstacle to me. They are not foods I want to offer around the house, nor do I love seeing them go into my children's bodies. I do have to say that when we are out and about and those types of foods are readily accessible, when they ask, I generally say yes. And I'm usually the kind of parent at the potluck or birthday party who says sure go ahead to that second, third, 8th cupcake or donut hole, if there is enough for everyone that is. (I think Abena at 2 ate about 12 donut holes one time when we were in one of those situations!-- that's still a fun , joyful memory to me)
I didn't quite understand Sandras comment .If your belief system is at odds with what will make unschooling workable in your life, you'll need to make a choice.
If your belief system can't be expanded or adjusted to allow you to believe in natural learning of things beyond academic subject matter, you won't be able to unschool.
If my belief is that whole real food is the best thing for growing bodies, and I seek to to provide that mostly at home, while allowing my children access to the rest of it when we are out and about, is that incompatible with unschooling? Is it the internal dialog with myself that is incompatible?
I guess what I've gleaned from your responses is to enjoy it with them when they want that kind of food, don't put a judgmental spin on it. It was helpful to compare what I would say to them to if my husband said similar things to me.
I loved the idea of making our own sodas. We already have a cotton candy and snow cone machine-- it will be fun to add soda to the mix!
Thanks for your thoughtful responses. It's all helpful.
Shauna
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
sheeboo2
-------I didn't quite understand Sandras comment .If your belief system is at odds
with what will make unschooling workable in your life, you'll need to make a
choice.
If your belief system can't be expanded or adjusted to allow you to believe in
natural learning of things beyond academic subject matter, you won't be able to unschool-----------
Maybe think of it this way: if you are not willing to let your children develop their *own* (likely ever-growing) belief systems, which most likely not always reflect your own, then unschooling as is disucced here, is probably not workable for you.
Brie
with what will make unschooling workable in your life, you'll need to make a
choice.
If your belief system can't be expanded or adjusted to allow you to believe in
natural learning of things beyond academic subject matter, you won't be able to unschool-----------
Maybe think of it this way: if you are not willing to let your children develop their *own* (likely ever-growing) belief systems, which most likely not always reflect your own, then unschooling as is disucced here, is probably not workable for you.
Brie
Meredith
Shauna Reisewitz <shaunareisewitz@...> wrote:
, is that incompatible with unschooling?
******************
Why do you want to selectively "allow access" to foods you think are terrible? What's the reasoning behind that? Is it so they'll learn those foods make them feel bad? That's not a good strategy on more than one level. First, people respond differently to different foods -their bodies respond differently and their senses and personalities, too. For some people bubbles are wonderful and exciting, others (like my daughter) don't like bubbly drinks. Some people find finely textured foods very satisfying - I do, I dislike multi-grain bread unless all the grains are very finely ground.
The effects of limits on decision making are another reason only allowing "bad foods" when you're out of the house isn't a great strategy - limits make the limited thing more valuable, a luxury item. Think about how good it is when seasonal fruits are just becomming available, or specialty foods which are associated with certain holidays - when you limit something, you set up that kind of response. I'll eat pumpkin pie even if it has too much nutmeg in the fall because it has such a luxury value to it. By January, I'll only eat the stuff with no nutmeg, because **pumpkin pie** has lost some of its luxury value.
What's the principle which underlyes that? You want your kids to be healthy, but how are you defining health? How are you measuring it? Do your real life experiences with your kids back up your belief?
It may be that one of your principles revolves around the word "real" in that statement - you value "real" things, maybe "natural" things. Why is that? What's good about that? I went through a process like this around the idea of "beauty" which I defined as "natural beauty". I wanted a beautiful life... but my kids kept wanting things made of plastic. It helped me to dig down into the idea of beauty and discover what I found wonderful - those were things which brought me joy. How do you feel when you think of "real" things? Hold on tight to that feeling for a moment because That, that feeling, that's the underlying principle. You want to share That with your kids.
The catch is, you can't give it away or teach it. At best, you can inspire it - and your kids may not find the same things inspiring right now. Look for what lights them up, what brings Them closer to that wonderful feeling. And if it's something you don't like, focus on the feeling - the smiles and shining eyes and other evidence of happy children. Give yourself permission to learn from their happiness and you'll have a better understanding of who they are and why they make the choices they do. The more you understand about who they are and what they value, the better your chance of helping them learn about the world in ways which work for them.
---Meredith
, is that incompatible with unschooling?
******************
>> If my belief is that whole real food is the best thing for growing bodies, and I seek to to provide that mostly at home, while allowing my children access to the rest of it when we are out and aboutPhrases like "incompatible with unschooling" take you away from what unschooling is really about, which is learning. What helps people to learn? Mixed messages make learning more difficult! So if it seems like some of your principles are in conflict it can help to pull apart your ideas and try to get a better understanding of what you value, what your ideals and goals are.
Why do you want to selectively "allow access" to foods you think are terrible? What's the reasoning behind that? Is it so they'll learn those foods make them feel bad? That's not a good strategy on more than one level. First, people respond differently to different foods -their bodies respond differently and their senses and personalities, too. For some people bubbles are wonderful and exciting, others (like my daughter) don't like bubbly drinks. Some people find finely textured foods very satisfying - I do, I dislike multi-grain bread unless all the grains are very finely ground.
The effects of limits on decision making are another reason only allowing "bad foods" when you're out of the house isn't a great strategy - limits make the limited thing more valuable, a luxury item. Think about how good it is when seasonal fruits are just becomming available, or specialty foods which are associated with certain holidays - when you limit something, you set up that kind of response. I'll eat pumpkin pie even if it has too much nutmeg in the fall because it has such a luxury value to it. By January, I'll only eat the stuff with no nutmeg, because **pumpkin pie** has lost some of its luxury value.
>>> If my belief is that whole real food is the best thing for growing bodies********************
What's the principle which underlyes that? You want your kids to be healthy, but how are you defining health? How are you measuring it? Do your real life experiences with your kids back up your belief?
It may be that one of your principles revolves around the word "real" in that statement - you value "real" things, maybe "natural" things. Why is that? What's good about that? I went through a process like this around the idea of "beauty" which I defined as "natural beauty". I wanted a beautiful life... but my kids kept wanting things made of plastic. It helped me to dig down into the idea of beauty and discover what I found wonderful - those were things which brought me joy. How do you feel when you think of "real" things? Hold on tight to that feeling for a moment because That, that feeling, that's the underlying principle. You want to share That with your kids.
The catch is, you can't give it away or teach it. At best, you can inspire it - and your kids may not find the same things inspiring right now. Look for what lights them up, what brings Them closer to that wonderful feeling. And if it's something you don't like, focus on the feeling - the smiles and shining eyes and other evidence of happy children. Give yourself permission to learn from their happiness and you'll have a better understanding of who they are and why they make the choices they do. The more you understand about who they are and what they value, the better your chance of helping them learn about the world in ways which work for them.
---Meredith
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
<<<"I think Abena at 2 ate about 12 donut holes one time when we were in one of those situations!-- that's still a fun , joyful memory to me)">>>>
There are usually lots of cookies, donut holes and stuff full of sugar in my home. My husband loves them and it makes him happy.
There are also fruits, vegetables, (I have a huge vegetable garden too!) and foods considered healthy by people that are afraid of sugar.
My kids eat a huge variety of all foods. I have a hard time keeping Gigi from eating things from the garden before they are ripe!
She will cry if she wants carrots and we are out of them. She will do the same for french fries.
My kids are super healthy.
They will ask me for some brocolli, ,mash potato ( and Gigi will not eat box one it needs to be home made) and salmon because that is what they want. They will ask for cookies the same way they ask for strawberries.
I wish I had the healthy relationship to food that they had. I wish I did not feel guilty when I eat french fries!|\
They are so much more in tune with their bodies than I am.
Oh and by the way my husband is almost 50, super in shape and he is the one eating all that sugar and things that will make some cringe!
Alex Polikowsky
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There are usually lots of cookies, donut holes and stuff full of sugar in my home. My husband loves them and it makes him happy.
There are also fruits, vegetables, (I have a huge vegetable garden too!) and foods considered healthy by people that are afraid of sugar.
My kids eat a huge variety of all foods. I have a hard time keeping Gigi from eating things from the garden before they are ripe!
She will cry if she wants carrots and we are out of them. She will do the same for french fries.
My kids are super healthy.
They will ask me for some brocolli, ,mash potato ( and Gigi will not eat box one it needs to be home made) and salmon because that is what they want. They will ask for cookies the same way they ask for strawberries.
I wish I had the healthy relationship to food that they had. I wish I did not feel guilty when I eat french fries!|\
They are so much more in tune with their bodies than I am.
Oh and by the way my husband is almost 50, super in shape and he is the one eating all that sugar and things that will make some cringe!
Alex Polikowsky
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otherstar
>>>>I agree with Sandra's comment that it's incredibly useful to pack things you know they'll like<<<<Another idea is to invite the kids to help you pack up snacks that they will like. My 8 year old loves to pack up snacks for the family when we are getting ready to go. Even my 3 year old and 5 year old are capable of grabbing snacks and putting them in the bag.
Connie
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otherstar
>>>>If my belief is that whole real food is the best thing for growing bodies, and I seek to to provide that mostly at home while allowing my children access to the rest of it when we are out and about, is that incompatible with unschooling? Is it the internal dialog with myself that is incompatible? <<<<I don’t know that anyone can say for certain that it is incompatible. If you have a child that is easy going and doesn’t have strong preferences one way or the other, then it MIGHT be okay. All of my children have really strong preferences. If I were to try to limit things to “only when we were out and about”, then that would interfere with our relationship. When my girls were younger, I was really picky about food and tried to eat organic and whole foods at home. We tried the "only at grandma’s” or when out and about and it didn’t work. It led to a situation where they didn’t want to be at home and would rather hang out with grandma because grandma would feed them whatever they wanted whenever they wanted. Not only was it a battle between me and my girls but it became a battle between me and mom.
It is interesting how things have changed. There are a lot of other factors but now my girls don’t have a huge need to go out all the time. Now that they can get whatever they want or need at home, grandma’s house isn’t as appealing and neither is going out. If I had not figured all of that out and continued to put my beliefs about whole foods ahead of my children, unschooling would not have worked very well.
It doesn’t have to be all or nothing either. I can believe that whole foods are the best for growing bodies in a general sense but that doesn’t mean that I have to impose that belief on my children. When I went through a period of trying to eat whole foods, I felt like crap. Whenever I would try to do research or talk to people within certain groups, I was told to be patient. I was told that it was just a healing crisis. I was continually dismissed and told to be patient. It was frustrating to have people try to tell me that what I was feeling wasn’t valid. I no longer focus on whole foods for a variety of reasons and I feel a whole lot better. I haven’t lost weight but at least I am not gaining any more weight and I don’t seem to be as depressed. There is something in “junk” food that my body seems to need. My husband cannot eat like I do or he gets sick. It really helped the two of us to discuss what foods did to our individual bodies so that we could shop based on individual preferences and what makes each of us feel healthy. Now, food is food. If our bodies are craving a certain food, then that is what we eat and the craving goes away. When we were trying to adhere to a specific diet and listening to others tell us what to eat, we would follow the diet for a while and then we would get to a point where we would binge on all the stuff that we had been denying ourselves. It was a nasty little cycle that we didn’t break until we stopped categorizing food as “junk” or “sugary” or “whole” or something else. Food is food is food. Rather than focusing on generalizations, we talk about specific foods and specific bodies without regard to whether or not the food is “junk” or “whole” or something else.
Connie
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Pam Sorooshian
> >>>>If my belief is that whole real food is the best thing for growingIt is incompatible with unschooling to ignore a child's interests or to
> bodies, and I seek to to provide that mostly at home while allowing my
> children access to the rest of it when we are out and about, is that
> incompatible with unschooling? Is it the internal dialog with myself that
> is incompatible? <<<<
dismiss them as if they don't matter. The internal dialog you should be
having as an unschooling parent is all about how you can support that
child's interests. Each of us faces constraints in supporting our
children's interests. Some people have time constraints - they work or have
other children who also need them or have older parents with needs. Some
people have health constraints - they aren't as well as they'd like to be
and it prevents them from doing everything they would like to do for their
kids. Most people have money constraints and can't afford things. In
addition, there are things we can tolerate and things we can't. It helps us
be better unschooling parents to tolerate more rather than less - to
stretch our boundaries and expand outside our comfort zones, but none of us
are going to be tolerant of absolutely everything possible.
So part of our internal dialog is likely to be asking ourselves how far we
can stretch and a good unschooling answer is "pretty darn far." There is
judgment - the good kind - the kind that means thinking realistically about
consequences and how likely and significant those consequences will be.
An example of this is with bedtimes. I know someone who had a really hard
time with this - in her opinion it was very important for kids (to be
healthy) to get to sleep fairly early and get up early. She clung to that
belief in spite of evidence to the contrary all around her (lots of
unschooling kids who stayed up late and slept late). She just couldn't let
herself really think clearly and believe the evidence of her own eyes. So I
asked her what she thought was going to happen if she let the kids stay up
one hour later. What about 2 hours? She decided she would be okay with an
hour and then eventually started helping them go to bed when she saw signs
of sleepiness. It took her a few months to get to that point.
I think with food beliefs it is hard like the above person found bedtimes
hard to let go of - but the truth is eating a hamburger from McDonalds or
having a soda is NOT poisonous and won't have any effect on a child's
health at all. Bodies are way tougher than that. So - when having that
internal dialog - decide to say yes more often. See how that goes. And, at
the same time, talk with yourself about ways to make the more healthy stuff
more appealing. Make more homemade drinks, juices, and sodas as well as
cookies and so on. They can be a lot healthier - made without high fructose
corn syrup, for example, and even more delicious. Decide to offer all kinds
of more healthy yummy stuff before the kids get hungry or before you go out
or when you're one place, eat there before you get in the car and drive
past all the fast food places on the street.
-pam
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otherstar
>>>>I think with food beliefs it is hard like the above person found bedtimes hard to let go of - but the truth is eating a hamburger from McDonalds or having a soda is NOT poisonous and won't have any effect on a child's health at all. <<<<This reminded me of a story of something that happened recently. My dad was in the hospital and asked my mom to bring him a large order of fries from McDonald’s. She did but not without comment. She had to mention something about it being crap and then proceeded to tell us about the documentary “Supersize Me” and how sick that guy got. I haven’t watched it and I don’t think my dad has either but my dad and I reminded my mom that the guy got sick because he was eating McDonald’s for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. It was an extreme situation that people are trying to generalize to eating McDonald’s from time to time. My 10 year old has been doing some studying and reading on her own and has been going on and on about how McDonald’s isn’t real food. It has really upset her younger sisters and I have tried to assure the younger ones that eating at McDonald’s every once in a while isn’t going to hurt them. I have been trying to help find that middle ground.
Another story that is related to this is another one about my dad in the hospital. He was telling me about how he got into it with the dietician. He wanted sausage for breakfast but the dietician said that it wasn’t in his diet plan. He told me that he told the dietician that if he didn’t get the sausage, he would likely just walk down to the vending machine and get candy because sausage was the only thing on the menu that looked remotely appealing. I don’t know if he ever got his sausage but he made a heck of a point. A lot of times, the process of denying somebody something that they want leads to situations where they look for substitutes and end up with something that is 10 times worse than what was wanted to begin with.
Connie
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Sandra Dodd
-=-It's a very good exercise writing in this group to be so careful of word choice.-=-
It's not for practice, though. It's not "an exercise."
It's real communication with thousands of people, and should be clear, sincere, honest and proofread.
http://sandradodd.com/lists/alwayslearningPOSTS
-=-For the record, what I meant by unrestricted sugar eaters was children who had an unrestricted access to sugar. _Unrestricted being the key word. I found the stories on Sanrda's blog inspirational, and see and know and have even seen in my own children at times that when children have unrestricted access to sugar, they often make healthy choices as well or in lieu of the sweet choice. -=-
I knew what you meant. I also knew what you wrote.
-=- and have even seen in my own children at times that when children have unrestricted access to sugar, they often make healthy choices as well or in lieu of the sweet choice. -=-
*DO* your children have unrestricted access to sugar?
(you don't need to tell us this, but it looks like you're talking about temporary, occasional times when children have unrestricted access to sugar, and that's not the same as choices over so long a period of time that the "sugar" (this is irritating, by the way, to be discussing "sugar" as though anyone just sits and eats sugar) is not special, or set aside, or a treat.
-=-they often make healthy choices as well or in lieu of the sweet choice-=-
I know you're trying to correct what you said before, but it's not necessary, and it's not working.
When children have real, true, full choices, they make choices always.
If the mother is judging those choices as healthy or not healthy, and if sweet is the opposite of healthy, the mother hasn't relaxed, and so the children probably don't really have unrestricted access, or unjudged access.
It's normal, common, and considered sensible to have those limits and judgments.
Many people will praise and affirm and nod approvingly.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
It's not for practice, though. It's not "an exercise."
It's real communication with thousands of people, and should be clear, sincere, honest and proofread.
http://sandradodd.com/lists/alwayslearningPOSTS
-=-For the record, what I meant by unrestricted sugar eaters was children who had an unrestricted access to sugar. _Unrestricted being the key word. I found the stories on Sanrda's blog inspirational, and see and know and have even seen in my own children at times that when children have unrestricted access to sugar, they often make healthy choices as well or in lieu of the sweet choice. -=-
I knew what you meant. I also knew what you wrote.
-=- and have even seen in my own children at times that when children have unrestricted access to sugar, they often make healthy choices as well or in lieu of the sweet choice. -=-
*DO* your children have unrestricted access to sugar?
(you don't need to tell us this, but it looks like you're talking about temporary, occasional times when children have unrestricted access to sugar, and that's not the same as choices over so long a period of time that the "sugar" (this is irritating, by the way, to be discussing "sugar" as though anyone just sits and eats sugar) is not special, or set aside, or a treat.
-=-they often make healthy choices as well or in lieu of the sweet choice-=-
I know you're trying to correct what you said before, but it's not necessary, and it's not working.
When children have real, true, full choices, they make choices always.
If the mother is judging those choices as healthy or not healthy, and if sweet is the opposite of healthy, the mother hasn't relaxed, and so the children probably don't really have unrestricted access, or unjudged access.
It's normal, common, and considered sensible to have those limits and judgments.
Many people will praise and affirm and nod approvingly.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jul 1, 2012, at 3:37 AM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
Even if someone jokingly uses phrases like "food thing, going hog wild, out of hand" or calls their child sweetly "little terror" or labels some food "junk food" ... the joking intention doesn't remove the connections to the harsher meanings.
If you think of "hog wild" as a label on a box of all it's usual uses, the joking "hog wild" your kids are doing is in there with the much larger collection of harsher "hog wild"s like college students on the beach at Spring Break, like hogs feeding at a trough. The joking uses will get tainted by the harsher uses.
And among the possible responses to "hog wild" will be those responses you'd have for Spring Break teens and feeding hogs.
If, instead, it's called excitement over getting something normally scarce and making choices, it will help you understand better what your children are doing and respond to the reasons behind their choices rather than to the harsher uses that are in those boxes.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> -=-It's a very good exercise writing in this group to be so careful of word choice.-=-And writing clearly enough for the scrutinizing people on this list to understand also clarifies the ideas in your own head and helps you think more clearly.
>
> It's not for practice, though. It's not "an exercise."
Even if someone jokingly uses phrases like "food thing, going hog wild, out of hand" or calls their child sweetly "little terror" or labels some food "junk food" ... the joking intention doesn't remove the connections to the harsher meanings.
If you think of "hog wild" as a label on a box of all it's usual uses, the joking "hog wild" your kids are doing is in there with the much larger collection of harsher "hog wild"s like college students on the beach at Spring Break, like hogs feeding at a trough. The joking uses will get tainted by the harsher uses.
And among the possible responses to "hog wild" will be those responses you'd have for Spring Break teens and feeding hogs.
If, instead, it's called excitement over getting something normally scarce and making choices, it will help you understand better what your children are doing and respond to the reasons behind their choices rather than to the harsher uses that are in those boxes.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
> > If my belief is that whole real food is the best thing for growingI'd say that's two separate beliefs.
> > bodies, and I seek to to provide that mostly at home while allowing my
> > children access to the rest of it when we are out and about, is that
> > incompatible with unschooling? Is it the internal dialog with myself that
> > is incompatible?
Perhaps a clearer way of phrasing it than incompatible is "How you prioritize your values (beliefs) will determine how well you can unschool."
How about this for a definition of unschooling:
Unschooling is using our values to support kids' in exploring the world as they discover what's right for them.
Values that are compatible with the above are kindness, patience, respect, trust, trustworthiness, honesty, learning, joy, peace, support, listening, communication, thoughtfulness, safety ...
If you value "whole real food is the best thing for growing bodies" ahead of the above definition, you will need to narrow their world to the "Column A" foods you deem "whole" and "real". They can discover what they like best from "Column A" but can't ever decide Column A is best without being able to sample from Column B and all the rest of the columns. All they can do is memorize your belief that Column A is best.
Dorothy couldn't discover "There's no place like home," without exploring the world beyond home, and without the freedom to decide that Oz was better for her. Without the freedom to explore, it's a parroted phrase without meaning.
Joyce
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Karen
>>>>> If my belief is that whole real food is the best thing for growing bodies, and I seek to to provide that mostly at home, while allowing my children access to the rest of it when we are out and about, is that incompatible with unschooling? Is it the internal dialog with myself that is incompatible?I guess what I've gleaned from your responses is to enjoy it with them when they want that kind of food, don't put a judgmental spin on it. It was helpful to compare what I would say to them to if my husband said similar things to me. <<<<<
I was thinking of this thread when I was out to brunch with my husband and son this morning. It was a huge buffet with everything from breakfast, to lunch, to dinner to desert foods. My son, Ethan, had a bit of everything--fruit, potatoes, salad, pork, fruitloops, and cheesecake. I had *a lot* of everything! Too much to list here ;-) As I was eating my second plate, which was almost all dinner-like items, I remembered that this evening I have some paintings I need to hang at a local cafe that serves waffles. So, looking down at my plate, I said to Ethan, "Hey it looks like we will be having dinner for breakfast, and breakfast for dinner today!" Ethan casually said, "Oh. Food is food."
I thought that was really cool, because I, personally, have this long spinning dialogue in my head about what is food. Things like, don't snack before dinner, or you'll spoil your dinner; don't eat desert first; eat your greens; finish what's on your plate; don't play with your food; everyone should sit down to dinner together at certain times, don't eat too much sugar, eat local, eat more fat, eat less fat...I'm sure there are many more thoughts spinning around in my mind. Some are learned from my childhood. Some I have learned through reading about what we should be eating. Some I have picked up from friends, watching their own food relationships. To be totally honest, thinking about food can wear me out!
"Oh. Food is food." I love it! And, when I watch my son, he eats really well. He loves salad with crispy wet leaves. He devours kale with soy sauce. He regularly asks for salmon or chicken with prunes. He can eat a whole bowl of chick peas. He picks and eats from our little garden. He helps me shop at the grocery store and at the farmers market. Yesterday, he made himself a tuna sandwich with lots of celery and a big bunch of lettuce. I cut up some carrot sticks for him, and he was thrilled! He also ordered a double scoop bittersweet icecream sunday, with whip cream and a cherry on top when we went out to the lake for the day. He couldn't finish it all--neither the tuna sandwich earlier, nor the ice cream sundae later.
Food is food. As a family, we do eat well, but we all have choices and preferences. I have a big jar of chocolate chips in the fridge I graze from. Ethan loves cereal. He usually eats a couple bowls of that a day. My husband likes chips. We always have a few bags on hand. I didn't always think this way. I had a lot of anxiety around what to serve my family. But, from reading on this list, moving slowly, watching my family, and listening to my own body, I have come to a place where I can begin to enjoy food as food, enjoyed and shared with the people I love most, and not viewed as merely a prescription for guaranteed good health and/or good living.
Schuyler
>>to be discussing "sugar" as though anyone just sits and eats sugar<<
I used to eat straight sugar. I particularly liked icing/powdered sugar or brown sugar. It was when I was pre-pubertal, probably going through a lot of growth and that quick energy source was absolutely appetising. At the same age girls were bringing bags of powdered jello to school to eat as a snack, like lik-m-aids, but without the tasty candy stick. So we were probably all going through a similar period of energetic requirements. As of yet I have had no known health effects that can be directly linked to my eating spoonfuls and bowlfuls of sugar.
My sugar eating was done slyly, I snuck sugar. There was a bit of guilt, but mostly it was pleasure that I knew would be looked at as some kind of inappropriate act if I had been discovered. I don't remember being caught, though.
Schuyler
________________________________
From: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, 1 July 2012, 17:37
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: the food thing
-=-It's a very good exercise writing in this group to be so careful of word choice.-=-
It's not for practice, though. It's not "an exercise."
It's real communication with thousands of people, and should be clear, sincere, honest and proofread.
http://sandradodd.com/lists/alwayslearningPOSTS
-=-For the record, what I meant by unrestricted sugar eaters was children who had an unrestricted access to sugar. _Unrestricted being the key word. I found the stories on Sanrda's blog inspirational, and see and know and have even seen in my own children at times that when children have unrestricted access to sugar, they often make healthy choices as well or in lieu of the sweet choice. -=-
I knew what you meant. I also knew what you wrote.
-=- and have even seen in my own children at times that when children have unrestricted access to sugar, they often make healthy choices as well or in lieu of the sweet choice. -=-
*DO* your children have unrestricted access to sugar?
(you don't need to tell us this, but it looks like you're talking about temporary, occasional times when children have unrestricted access to sugar, and that's not the same as choices over so long a period of time that the "sugar" (this is irritating, by the way, to be discussing "sugar" as though anyone just sits and eats sugar) is not special, or set aside, or a treat.
-=-they often make healthy choices as well or in lieu of the sweet choice-=-
I know you're trying to correct what you said before, but it's not necessary, and it's not working.
When children have real, true, full choices, they make choices always.
If the mother is judging those choices as healthy or not healthy, and if sweet is the opposite of healthy, the mother hasn't relaxed, and so the children probably don't really have unrestricted access, or unjudged access.
It's normal, common, and considered sensible to have those limits and judgments.
Many people will praise and affirm and nod approvingly.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]