Our food, their food, and tact
teresa
We're just back from the park where we were meeting a friend and her little boy. We ate snacks together and ended up down at the creek. Soon after we began playing there, two other families showed up with six children between them, ages 6 to 9, maybe. Our kids played on the edge of this group happily for about an hour, and then a third mom joined their group, and she had brought Popsicles for all of them. They didn't offer our kids any, so our kids kind of wandered back to us. Then, my son, who's 6 1/2, walked back close-ish to their group and shouted to get their attention, then asked what they planned on doing after they ate their Popsicles. I suspected by his body language and his tone of voice that he was really wanting to be offered a Popsicle, but the other kids didn't answer anyway. I asked him to come back toward me, then asked him quietly to stop trying to get their attention and to let them eat their Popsicles. But he got a little frustrated with me, insisting that he wasn't trying to get a Popsicle from them. He went back to trying to get their attention, I asked him to stop again, he did it a few more times, but quietly, then stopped.
We ended up leaving, frustrated, shortly thereafter, and I reminded him that we had popsicles at home. I asked him if he knew that it wasn't really considered polite to ask or "kind of" ask strangers for their food. He said he did, and reiterated that that's not what he was trying to do. So I dropped it.
I'm not happy with how I handled it. It felt clumsy and heavy-handed, definitely tense, and I wasn't taking what he said on face value. But I can't get a good feel of what would have made that situation better, to have done less or more, but in a different way?
I rather wish I would have just let it play out. My sense is that the other kids would have just eaten their Popsicles then gone back to playing, and it would be a non-issue. But my fear was that he would be perceived as obnoxious, and I was trying to give him some information to help prevent that.
What do you all think? What in this situation could have been better?
Thanks for your ideas,
Teresa
mama to Woody, 6 1/2, and Fox, 3 1/2
We ended up leaving, frustrated, shortly thereafter, and I reminded him that we had popsicles at home. I asked him if he knew that it wasn't really considered polite to ask or "kind of" ask strangers for their food. He said he did, and reiterated that that's not what he was trying to do. So I dropped it.
I'm not happy with how I handled it. It felt clumsy and heavy-handed, definitely tense, and I wasn't taking what he said on face value. But I can't get a good feel of what would have made that situation better, to have done less or more, but in a different way?
I rather wish I would have just let it play out. My sense is that the other kids would have just eaten their Popsicles then gone back to playing, and it would be a non-issue. But my fear was that he would be perceived as obnoxious, and I was trying to give him some information to help prevent that.
What do you all think? What in this situation could have been better?
Thanks for your ideas,
Teresa
mama to Woody, 6 1/2, and Fox, 3 1/2
Sandra Dodd
-=-He went back to trying to get their attention, I asked him to stop again, he did it a few more times, but quietly, then stopped.
-=-We ended up leaving, frustrated, shortly thereafter, and I reminded him that we had popsicles at home. I asked him if he knew that it wasn't really considered polite to ask or "kind of" ask strangers for their food. He said he did, and reiterated that that's not what he was trying to do. So I dropped it.
-=-I'm not happy with how I handled it. It felt clumsy and heavy-handed, definitely tense, and I wasn't taking what he said on face value. But I can't get a good feel of what would have made that situation better, to have done less or more, but in a different way?-=-
I would simply have said "Leave them alone," and then distracted him with something really fun, or walked off with him in another direction so that he forgot all about them for a while.
If I said "Leave them alone" and he didn't, I would have said "I said leave them alone."
Unschooling doesn't mean everything on earth changes. It means don't be arbitrary. It's not arbitrary to decide on behalf of your team that if another group has food they're not offering that it's not your food, they don't have to offer you food, and they should be left to eat in peace.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-=-We ended up leaving, frustrated, shortly thereafter, and I reminded him that we had popsicles at home. I asked him if he knew that it wasn't really considered polite to ask or "kind of" ask strangers for their food. He said he did, and reiterated that that's not what he was trying to do. So I dropped it.
-=-I'm not happy with how I handled it. It felt clumsy and heavy-handed, definitely tense, and I wasn't taking what he said on face value. But I can't get a good feel of what would have made that situation better, to have done less or more, but in a different way?-=-
I would simply have said "Leave them alone," and then distracted him with something really fun, or walked off with him in another direction so that he forgot all about them for a while.
If I said "Leave them alone" and he didn't, I would have said "I said leave them alone."
Unschooling doesn't mean everything on earth changes. It means don't be arbitrary. It's not arbitrary to decide on behalf of your team that if another group has food they're not offering that it's not your food, they don't have to offer you food, and they should be left to eat in peace.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jun 22, 2012, at 4:36 PM, teresa wrote:
If you'd begun with sympathy for what was bothering him, he probably would have taken in advice on how to deal with it.
You could have said "It doesn't feel good when that happens. It would have been nice if they had had enough for everyone." And if he enjoys pretending you could have spun some fantasies, like "It would be even nicer if popsicles grew on trees so we could have them any time we wanted." And played around with that. You could tell him there were popsicles at home. Or given him some options. Not as a way to make his disappointment go away but to create a sense that the world is full of options even when something unfun happens.
At that point you could say "You can hang here until they're done." Perhaps pulled out something to do from your secret stash in your purse for such emergencies. Or given him other suggestions if he was having problems.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I asked him to come back toward me, then asked him quietlyThis is the point where you ignored his wants and made the situation about your agenda to get him to act the right way, which means anything you had to say he'd be less likely to pay attention to.
> to stop trying to get their attention and to let them eat their Popsicles.
If you'd begun with sympathy for what was bothering him, he probably would have taken in advice on how to deal with it.
You could have said "It doesn't feel good when that happens. It would have been nice if they had had enough for everyone." And if he enjoys pretending you could have spun some fantasies, like "It would be even nicer if popsicles grew on trees so we could have them any time we wanted." And played around with that. You could tell him there were popsicles at home. Or given him some options. Not as a way to make his disappointment go away but to create a sense that the world is full of options even when something unfun happens.
At that point you could say "You can hang here until they're done." Perhaps pulled out something to do from your secret stash in your purse for such emergencies. Or given him other suggestions if he was having problems.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
teresa
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
Teresa
>What would you do if that still wasn't met with compliance? That's often the place where things turn sticky for me, when I feel frustrated and upset, and where I struggle to make the next move a good one.
> If I said "Leave them alone" and he didn't, I would have said "I said leave them alone."
> Unschooling doesn't mean everything on earth changes. It means don't be arbitrary. It's not arbitrary to decide on behalf of your team that if another group has food they're not offering that it's not your food, they don't have to offer you food, and they should be left to eat in peace.Would you be willing to clarify the part about things not changing and don't be arbitrary? I don't think I'm quite following you (though I do understand the part about the other group being allowed to eat in peace).
>
> Sandra
Teresa
Meredith
"teresa" <treesock@...> wrote:
Did you offer him something else to do? That's something to keep in mind for next time - don't expect "information" to be enough. He's little, so sometimes he needs help knowing what to do - not just what Not to do, if you see what I mean. He was interested in those other people, in what they were doing, maybe in what they were eating, maybe not, but they were the most interesting thing there. If it wasn't appropriate for him to get involved in what they were doing, then chances are he could have used some help finding some other interesting thing to do. Otherwise, it's like saying "don't think of a blue elephant."
It does seem like you jumped to a conclusion and stubbornly refused to consider any other possibility. Did it really matter why he was going over? It could help in similar situations to ask yourself that very question - does it matter why? It wasn't appropriate in the moment, and that's what he needed help with.
Maybe the reason for his interest did matter - "does it matter?" isn't just a rhetorical question, it's a real one! If you thought the popsicle was the real issue, maybe you could have suggested it was time to go have popsicles, without making a big deal. "Mmm, it's hot and those popsicles sure look good... we have some at home, and we've been here for awhile, maybe it's time to go have popsicles and watch Spongebob in our cool living room."
---Meredith
>>my fear was that he would be perceived as obnoxious, and I was trying to give him some information to help prevent that.***************
Did you offer him something else to do? That's something to keep in mind for next time - don't expect "information" to be enough. He's little, so sometimes he needs help knowing what to do - not just what Not to do, if you see what I mean. He was interested in those other people, in what they were doing, maybe in what they were eating, maybe not, but they were the most interesting thing there. If it wasn't appropriate for him to get involved in what they were doing, then chances are he could have used some help finding some other interesting thing to do. Otherwise, it's like saying "don't think of a blue elephant."
>>he got a little frustrated with me, insisting that he wasn't trying to get a Popsicle*****************
It does seem like you jumped to a conclusion and stubbornly refused to consider any other possibility. Did it really matter why he was going over? It could help in similar situations to ask yourself that very question - does it matter why? It wasn't appropriate in the moment, and that's what he needed help with.
Maybe the reason for his interest did matter - "does it matter?" isn't just a rhetorical question, it's a real one! If you thought the popsicle was the real issue, maybe you could have suggested it was time to go have popsicles, without making a big deal. "Mmm, it's hot and those popsicles sure look good... we have some at home, and we've been here for awhile, maybe it's time to go have popsicles and watch Spongebob in our cool living room."
---Meredith
Sandra Dodd
-=-> If I said "Leave them alone" and he didn't, I would have said "I said leave them alone."
-=-What would you do if that still wasn't met with compliance? -=]-
I don't know.
It never got that far.
It rarely got to "I said..."
Because we were kind to our kids from birth and we gave reasons when we wanted them to do something, and they trusted us, we didn't have problems.
Allowing a child to bug other people who are indicating him by ignoring him that they don't want to communicate is rudeness on the part of the mother. Your team wasn't being rude. It's not up to the child to figure that out on his own or for the other group to deal with him. Being his partner means you take the hit if he's rude, and you take some credit when he's not. Teamwork.
-=-> If I said "Leave them alone" and he didn't, I would have said "I said leave them alone."
What would you do if that still wasn't met with compliance? That's often the place where things turn sticky for me, when I feel frustrated and upset, and where I struggle to make the next move a good one.-=-
All the other things I suggested in my post.
If distraction or change of scenery and activity didn't work, I would happily (not as punishment, but as going to a more fun place) pack things up and go do something fun, or go buy a popsicle somewhere else if I really thought the popsicle was the important element.
-=-Unschooling doesn't mean everything on earth changes. It means don't be arbitrary.-=-
-=-Would you be willing to clarify the part about things not changing and don't be arbitrary?--=-
No, I'm unwilling to clarify it. It seems crystal clear.
The world is the world.
Do things that make sense.
Unschooling isn't magic, and it doesn't create exceptions for unschoolers in the real world.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-=-What would you do if that still wasn't met with compliance? -=]-
I don't know.
It never got that far.
It rarely got to "I said..."
Because we were kind to our kids from birth and we gave reasons when we wanted them to do something, and they trusted us, we didn't have problems.
Allowing a child to bug other people who are indicating him by ignoring him that they don't want to communicate is rudeness on the part of the mother. Your team wasn't being rude. It's not up to the child to figure that out on his own or for the other group to deal with him. Being his partner means you take the hit if he's rude, and you take some credit when he's not. Teamwork.
-=-> If I said "Leave them alone" and he didn't, I would have said "I said leave them alone."
What would you do if that still wasn't met with compliance? That's often the place where things turn sticky for me, when I feel frustrated and upset, and where I struggle to make the next move a good one.-=-
All the other things I suggested in my post.
If distraction or change of scenery and activity didn't work, I would happily (not as punishment, but as going to a more fun place) pack things up and go do something fun, or go buy a popsicle somewhere else if I really thought the popsicle was the important element.
-=-Unschooling doesn't mean everything on earth changes. It means don't be arbitrary.-=-
-=-Would you be willing to clarify the part about things not changing and don't be arbitrary?--=-
No, I'm unwilling to clarify it. It seems crystal clear.
The world is the world.
Do things that make sense.
Unschooling isn't magic, and it doesn't create exceptions for unschoolers in the real world.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jun 22, 2012, at 5:42 PM, teresa wrote:
If he's used to you telling him what to do and how to behave in that manner, it will sound like more of "What you want isn't as important as behaving nicely."
So, back up. Be someone he knows cares about his disappointments in life.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>> I would have said "I said leave them alone."I think what Sandra said might be heard as advice if a parent has long established as sense of trust the mother puts the child's needs as a priority.
>
> What would you do if that still wasn't met with compliance? That's often
> the place where things turn sticky for me, when I feel frustrated and upset,
> and where I struggle to make the next move a good one.
If he's used to you telling him what to do and how to behave in that manner, it will sound like more of "What you want isn't as important as behaving nicely."
So, back up. Be someone he knows cares about his disappointments in life.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Meredith
"teresa" <treesock@...> wrote:
Sometimes parents use "we're unschoolers" as a kind of excuse: we don't have to follow social conventions we don't like. That doesn't help kids learn about the world and how to navigate the very real limits in it any more than saying "no because I said so" does.
In between "we don't have to" and "because I said so" it's helpful to think about the reasons for things, and it's helpful to look for other options. Part of being thoughtful and reasonable, when you have little kids, is realizing that sometimes they're not going to understand, and sometimes understanding isn't enough - they need real, hands-on assistance.
---Meredith
>> What would you do if that still wasn't met with compliance?It helps to step back from the idea of compliance. He doesn't understand, and/or he needs help doing something differently.
> Would you be willing to clarify the part about things not changing and don't be arbitrary?*************
Sometimes parents use "we're unschoolers" as a kind of excuse: we don't have to follow social conventions we don't like. That doesn't help kids learn about the world and how to navigate the very real limits in it any more than saying "no because I said so" does.
In between "we don't have to" and "because I said so" it's helpful to think about the reasons for things, and it's helpful to look for other options. Part of being thoughtful and reasonable, when you have little kids, is realizing that sometimes they're not going to understand, and sometimes understanding isn't enough - they need real, hands-on assistance.
---Meredith
Pam Sorooshian
On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 1:36 PM, teresa <treesock@...> wrote:
for a 6 year old.
popsicle, but he was NOT asking them for one. He was telling you the truth.
Do you understand how concrete the thinking of a 6 yo is? They tend to be
very very literal.
When he said he wasn't trying to get a popsicle, I'd have said, "Oh, okay,
that's fine then." I'd have let him try to get their attention to play with
him. I don't quite understand why they had to leave the vicinity of the
other kids in the first place - it doesn't take that long to eat a popsicle
and they could have just sort of hung out until the other kids were done
and then kept on playing.
him. They'd been playing together a few minutes earlier. As long as he
didn't stand there staring right at a popsicle with his tongue hanging out
so that he was outright bugging them - I'd have let it go (keeping an eye
out, of course, that he wasn't begging or being really annoying).
sorry?" for repeatedly accusing him of doing something he was not doing?
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> <<<Then, my son, who's 6 1/2, walked back close-ish to their group andBut he wasn't saying that - so he actually showed pretty awesome restraint
> shouted to get their attention, then asked what they planned on doing after
> they ate their Popsicles. I suspected by his body language and his tone of
> voice that he was really wanting to be offered a Popsicle, but the other
> kids didn't answer anyway.>>
>
for a 6 year old.
> >>I asked him to come back toward me, then asked him quietly to stopHe is VERY concrete. He might have wished they'd notice him and give him a
> trying to get their attention and to let them eat their Popsicles. But he
> got a little frustrated with me, insisting that he wasn't trying to get a
> Popsicle from them.>>
>
popsicle, but he was NOT asking them for one. He was telling you the truth.
Do you understand how concrete the thinking of a 6 yo is? They tend to be
very very literal.
When he said he wasn't trying to get a popsicle, I'd have said, "Oh, okay,
that's fine then." I'd have let him try to get their attention to play with
him. I don't quite understand why they had to leave the vicinity of the
other kids in the first place - it doesn't take that long to eat a popsicle
and they could have just sort of hung out until the other kids were done
and then kept on playing.
> >>He went back to trying to get their attention, I asked him to stopIt doesn't seem to me he was being rude - I don't get why you were stopping
> again, he did it a few more times, but quietly, then stopped.>
>
him. They'd been playing together a few minutes earlier. As long as he
didn't stand there staring right at a popsicle with his tongue hanging out
so that he was outright bugging them - I'd have let it go (keeping an eye
out, of course, that he wasn't begging or being really annoying).
>Is there more to this story? Why did you leave?
> >>We ended up leaving, frustrated, shortly thereafter, and I reminded him
> that we had popsicles at home.<<<
>
> >>I asked him if he knew that it wasn't really considered polite to ask orI feel so defensive on his behalf. You dropped it? You didn't say, "I'm
> "kind of" ask strangers for their food. He said he did, and reiterated that
> that's not what he was trying to do. So I dropped it.>>
>
sorry?" for repeatedly accusing him of doing something he was not doing?
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
teresa
Thanks for the responses, all.
Pam, I couldn't tell if your questions were rhetorical or not, so I'll just answer them the best I can in case it's helpful.
But now I have more ideas of what I could have changed that would have made things better.
I did drop it. I wasn't nearly as clear on the situation as I am now. In my original post, I think I said that I wished I would have let it play out. I still do. I came to see that it was my assumption about his intention that caused most of the problems.
In one of her responses, Sandra said "Because we were kind to our kids from birth and we gave reasons when we wanted them to do something, and they trusted us, we didn't have problems."
I felt deeply discouraged about my own parenting reading this, and I feel the same way when I read disbelief that I didn't apologize in the moment.
Later, after we had enjoyed our own popsicles, after we'd had fun playing outside in the hose, after the bath and cartoons, when we were snuggling on the couch together and I knew it would really be heard, I apologized that I kept saying he was trying to get those kids' popsicles when he wasn't, that I'd gotten stuck on the wrong idea. He told me he thought that was a good thing to be sorry for.
Teresa
Pam, I couldn't tell if your questions were rhetorical or not, so I'll just answer them the best I can in case it's helpful.
> Do you understand how concrete the thinking of a 6 yo is? They tend to beI am learning. I read and post here to better understand the long view from people whose kids are older than mine.
> very very literal.
> > >>We ended up leaving, frustrated, shortly thereafter, and I reminded himThe other kids were still eating their popsicles. I was having trouble recovering from a situation that I didn't quite understand and that I sensed I was making worse. In that moment, I felt as if I had to change something, and the something I thought to change was our place.
> > that we had popsicles at home.<<<
> >
>
> Is there more to this story? Why did you leave?
But now I have more ideas of what I could have changed that would have made things better.
>This last part hurt to read.
> > >>I asked him if he knew that it wasn't really considered polite to ask or
> > "kind of" ask strangers for their food. He said he did, and reiterated that
> > that's not what he was trying to do. So I dropped it.>>
> >
>
> I feel so defensive on his behalf. You dropped it? You didn't say, "I'm
> sorry?" for repeatedly accusing him of doing something he was not doing?
>
> -pam
>
I did drop it. I wasn't nearly as clear on the situation as I am now. In my original post, I think I said that I wished I would have let it play out. I still do. I came to see that it was my assumption about his intention that caused most of the problems.
In one of her responses, Sandra said "Because we were kind to our kids from birth and we gave reasons when we wanted them to do something, and they trusted us, we didn't have problems."
I felt deeply discouraged about my own parenting reading this, and I feel the same way when I read disbelief that I didn't apologize in the moment.
Later, after we had enjoyed our own popsicles, after we'd had fun playing outside in the hose, after the bath and cartoons, when we were snuggling on the couch together and I knew it would really be heard, I apologized that I kept saying he was trying to get those kids' popsicles when he wasn't, that I'd gotten stuck on the wrong idea. He told me he thought that was a good thing to be sorry for.
Teresa
Pam Sorooshian
On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 5:54 PM, teresa <treesock@...> wrote:
clear. Sometimes it is better to not answer questions on the list - but to
consider ways you might answer. If you feel you have to answer on the list
in front of everybody, you might tend to sugar-coat a situation or be
defensive. You have no obligation to answer personal questions publicly.
I think you might enjoy reading about "ages and stages" of child
happened to you, rather than you deciding to do it. Also, who was
frustrated? You, right? A good exercise is to try to be really clear in
what you say, "I decided we should leave because I was frustrated with
_____________ (not sure what you'd fill that blank with).
benefit from knowing how this all sounds to someone else. Sometimes we're
so close to our own children that we lose perspective.
I keep thinking you must have the most well-behaved 6 year old in history
if this behavior got you so shaken up that you couldn't even stand to stay
and let them play longer. Not only does it seem like a normal everyday
little thing, the kind of thing a parent would handle a dozen times a day,
it seems like he consciously did not ask them for a popsicle and that shows
a lot of self-restraint for a 6 year old.
You said you wish you'd "let it play out." You might be engaging in
all-or-nothing thinking. Maybe. Do you see the options as control him and
make darn sure he is not asking for a popsicle or indicating in any way
that he wishes they'd give him one versus "letting it play out" meaning you
wouldn't say anything at all? (Rhetorical)
I might have ignored the whole thing (just let it play out) - because he
wasn't asking them for anything. Most likely they'd ignore him and he'd
move on to something else. But there are other options. I think I'd most
likely have handled it by going over to him (when he was calling to the
other kids) and saying, "Let them finish their popsicles, then maybe
they'll be ready to play again. C'mon, let's go ....whatever...climb a
tree, jump in the leaves, etc." If he didn't want to go, I'd probably very
lightly just say, "Okay - well that's fine just don't bug them about the
popsicles, okay?" And he'd say, "I'm NOT" and I'd say, "That's good."
the internet, but if it is because you, yourself, had a realization about
how much better you could be doing, then great!!
Someone once said to me that I was oddly happy to have to wear glasses.
This person said she hated wearing glasses. I said, "I'm SO glad to live
now when good eyeglasses exist so that I can comfortably see really well in
spite of my bad eyes.
Aren't you glad to have the opportunity to be learning this stuff? We
didn't have this when my oldest kids were little.
Instead of feeling deeply discouraged, be encouraged by how much
opportunity you have to deeply consider your parenting options.
And, yes, we ALL have made and will make mistakes. I could tell you about
mine, but what good would that do? Assume we've all messed up and regretted
our choices. We learned, moved on, and have lots of examples and ideas of
how to make better and better choices - learned through experience,
observation, or logic.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> **They were rhetorical, for you to consider yourself. Sorry that wasn't more
>
>
> <<<<<Thanks for the responses, all.
>
> Pam, I couldn't tell if your questions were rhetorical or not, so I'll
> just answer them the best I can in case it's helpful.>>>>
>
clear. Sometimes it is better to not answer questions on the list - but to
consider ways you might answer. If you feel you have to answer on the list
in front of everybody, you might tend to sugar-coat a situation or be
defensive. You have no obligation to answer personal questions publicly.
I think you might enjoy reading about "ages and stages" of child
> development. There are some nice little books by Louise Bates Ames calledYou said, "We ended up leaving, frustrated." That's very passive as if it
> "Your three year old" (they go up to 8 or 9 year olds, at least). Every
> child is different, so don't get TOO hooked on typical behaviors - but
> they're nice for getting a sense of brain, physical, and emotional
> development stages.
>
happened to you, rather than you deciding to do it. Also, who was
frustrated? You, right? A good exercise is to try to be really clear in
what you say, "I decided we should leave because I was frustrated with
_____________ (not sure what you'd fill that blank with).
>i knew it might but decided to say it anyway because I thought you might
>
> >>>This last part hurt to read. <<<
>
benefit from knowing how this all sounds to someone else. Sometimes we're
so close to our own children that we lose perspective.
I keep thinking you must have the most well-behaved 6 year old in history
if this behavior got you so shaken up that you couldn't even stand to stay
and let them play longer. Not only does it seem like a normal everyday
little thing, the kind of thing a parent would handle a dozen times a day,
it seems like he consciously did not ask them for a popsicle and that shows
a lot of self-restraint for a 6 year old.
You said you wish you'd "let it play out." You might be engaging in
all-or-nothing thinking. Maybe. Do you see the options as control him and
make darn sure he is not asking for a popsicle or indicating in any way
that he wishes they'd give him one versus "letting it play out" meaning you
wouldn't say anything at all? (Rhetorical)
I might have ignored the whole thing (just let it play out) - because he
wasn't asking them for anything. Most likely they'd ignore him and he'd
move on to something else. But there are other options. I think I'd most
likely have handled it by going over to him (when he was calling to the
other kids) and saying, "Let them finish their popsicles, then maybe
they'll be ready to play again. C'mon, let's go ....whatever...climb a
tree, jump in the leaves, etc." If he didn't want to go, I'd probably very
lightly just say, "Okay - well that's fine just don't bug them about the
popsicles, okay?" And he'd say, "I'm NOT" and I'd say, "That's good."
>Deep discouragement seems a little much as a response to some stranger on
> >>I felt deeply discouraged about my own parenting reading this, and I
> feel the same way when I read disbelief that I didn't apologize in the
> moment.>>>
>
the internet, but if it is because you, yourself, had a realization about
how much better you could be doing, then great!!
Someone once said to me that I was oddly happy to have to wear glasses.
This person said she hated wearing glasses. I said, "I'm SO glad to live
now when good eyeglasses exist so that I can comfortably see really well in
spite of my bad eyes.
Aren't you glad to have the opportunity to be learning this stuff? We
didn't have this when my oldest kids were little.
Instead of feeling deeply discouraged, be encouraged by how much
opportunity you have to deeply consider your parenting options.
And, yes, we ALL have made and will make mistakes. I could tell you about
mine, but what good would that do? Assume we've all messed up and regretted
our choices. We learned, moved on, and have lots of examples and ideas of
how to make better and better choices - learned through experience,
observation, or logic.
-pam
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Sandra Dodd
-=-If he's used to you telling him what to do and how to behave in that manner, it will sound like more of "What you want isn't as important as behaving nicely."-=-
I think that's true, though, that what a child wants isn't as important as behaving nicely, especially in public.
When a child knows that what he wants is important, though, it's a different scenario.
If parents are lackadaisical and unreliable, their children are likely to behave badly.
If parents are attentive and concerned, present and reliable, their children are not as likely to behave badly. If they have reason to trust that their parents do care, they will pay more attention to the parents, too.
From the point of view of people outside that family unit, who might be eating popsicles or otherwise living their own lives within their rights, the parenting philosophies of other families shouldn't be a concern for them (the strangers), nor should it inconvenience them.
A family shouldn't be disturbing the peace when they're out, and I expect the older members of the team to coach those newer to the planet on what maintaining the peace would look like. Even if they're unschoolers. Maybe especially if they're unschoolers. Instead of having rules, having principles ( other people's picnics are private, if someone is on a swing or a slide, they should get to finish their turn in peace, strangers' food isn't our food... I don't know what all it would be in particular situations--ideas about what is your group's territory and plan and what is other people's territory and plans.
People don't get closer to good behavior by allowing or encouraging wild behavior.
Sandra
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I think that's true, though, that what a child wants isn't as important as behaving nicely, especially in public.
When a child knows that what he wants is important, though, it's a different scenario.
If parents are lackadaisical and unreliable, their children are likely to behave badly.
If parents are attentive and concerned, present and reliable, their children are not as likely to behave badly. If they have reason to trust that their parents do care, they will pay more attention to the parents, too.
From the point of view of people outside that family unit, who might be eating popsicles or otherwise living their own lives within their rights, the parenting philosophies of other families shouldn't be a concern for them (the strangers), nor should it inconvenience them.
A family shouldn't be disturbing the peace when they're out, and I expect the older members of the team to coach those newer to the planet on what maintaining the peace would look like. Even if they're unschoolers. Maybe especially if they're unschoolers. Instead of having rules, having principles ( other people's picnics are private, if someone is on a swing or a slide, they should get to finish their turn in peace, strangers' food isn't our food... I don't know what all it would be in particular situations--ideas about what is your group's territory and plan and what is other people's territory and plans.
People don't get closer to good behavior by allowing or encouraging wild behavior.
Sandra
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Sandra Dodd
> >>I asked him if he knew that it wasn't really considered polite to ask orI feel so defensive on his behalf. You dropped it? You didn't say, "I'm
> "kind of" ask strangers for their food. He said he did, and reiterated that
> that's not what he was trying to do. So I dropped it.>>
>
sorry?" for repeatedly accusing him of doing something he was not doing?
-------------------------
I see Pam's point.
It sounds like there was way too much talking about it on the mom's part, and kids go to parks to play. The mom should've gotten up and done something so cool with the kids in her group that they couldn't even think about the other kids for a little while. And if it looked really fun, the popsicle kids might have hurried with what they were doing to come back over there.
But if our group had popsicles and a kid from another group was calling them and calling them, I would wish the other kids mom would get up and do something so cool with him that he wasn't focussed on what our kids were doing for a little while. :-)
Sandraa
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Sandra Dodd
-=-I think that's true, though, that what a child wants isn't as important as behaving nicely, especially in public.-=-
I figured some readers might be having conniptions about that statement, so i came back to say I'm just tired of unschoolers letting their children behave horribly in public and saying 'well, we're unschoolers.'
Unschooling doesn't make it okay for kids (or teenagers, in a recent incident) to run up and down hotel hallways at 2:00 in the morning making noise.
Being an unschooler doesn't make it okay to "comfort" a child who is having a loud fit in a restaurant (when "comfort" seems basically to encourage and prolong the loud complaint, instead of changing conditions so there's nothing to complain about, or walking the kid out to talk elsewhere, or carry him out to talk elsewhere, or letting the table go and trying later).
The absolutely valid and reasonable expectations of other guests in hotels, other diners in restaurants and other users of public parks shouldn't be set aside because a family is unschooling.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I figured some readers might be having conniptions about that statement, so i came back to say I'm just tired of unschoolers letting their children behave horribly in public and saying 'well, we're unschoolers.'
Unschooling doesn't make it okay for kids (or teenagers, in a recent incident) to run up and down hotel hallways at 2:00 in the morning making noise.
Being an unschooler doesn't make it okay to "comfort" a child who is having a loud fit in a restaurant (when "comfort" seems basically to encourage and prolong the loud complaint, instead of changing conditions so there's nothing to complain about, or walking the kid out to talk elsewhere, or carry him out to talk elsewhere, or letting the table go and trying later).
The absolutely valid and reasonable expectations of other guests in hotels, other diners in restaurants and other users of public parks shouldn't be set aside because a family is unschooling.
Sandra
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