How do I find the middle ground?
shybarbie22
Hello everyone!
As I mentioned before, on an e-mail that Im uncertain went out to all, I am new to the unschooling. I have an almost 7yr old and a 4 year old. I have been reading the posts and messages with all the concerns we all have, and I must say that I have been finding my way through a bunch of them, however I still find my self in need of direction.
As much as I love the concept and idea of unschooling, I don't really think I know the "how to" unschool. I am not a trained teacher, or come from a "schooled" family. It is all the contrary. My mother only went as far as 9th grade, and my father was gone before I could open my eyes sord of speak, so whenever I expressed any sort of interest in schooling or learning it was put out like poaring 50 gallons of water on a single match. I can remember saying I wanted to be an astronaut and being told that it would be impossible, because it was only a man's job, then I chose to be a firefighter and was also told I couldn't because it also was a man's job. So from the age of 6 and on (until I became and adult) I wanted to be a surgeon. I always had a liking for the body and how it all worked, to the point that I read an entire medical encyclopedia when I was 15. I did that, secretly because I was afraid of being caught and told it was wrong. When I was 16.5 I told my mother I wanted to be a surgeon and go to med school after graduating high school, and she literally laughed in my face and said I was too dumb and stupid to make it through shcool, she said why don't you carve a turkey instead... (mind you that I was an A,B student at the time). This totally crushed me!!!!
I had been struggling to find my way and find who I was my entire childhood, and still am. The thing is that then I got into modeling, and realized (then) how easy it would be to make a living without using the brain, and decided that being "dumb and stupid" would eventually pay off. Well, it hasn't!
I am now 30, with 2 children, did not go to med school, and feel that I am in my way. Because I am so blocked, I feel like I can't serve my children the right way. I have soooo many doubts as to doing the right thing for them. I don't want to be the reason my children dont go to college if that is what they aspire (by not providing them with the "right" tools). I know that I need to do some work on myself, and I have for the past few years and come a long way, but I still have this "thought" that college is this graaaaaand place that will safe your life, when I know it isn't, but it creeps up so much, and then I push my daughter to read a page a day, or 2 pages if she skipped a day, I then wonder how can I "teach" her math and science in an usnchooling way (in case she wants to go the college route) what is apropriate for her age, can I introduce the human body, or would that be my "likes" in disguise?
I really want to truthfully let them unfold at their own pase, but I am so confused as to what is right and what is wrong that I don't know which direction to take.
I also have the concerns of my husband who feels that I should have some sort of learning rythm in which we do "learning"/"teaching" in a more creative way, and although I agree, I just don't seem to find the ways of dong this. (He really feels that she should read and know math)
In the past year, I don't really think my kids have socialized much, (which bothers me) other than park visits, and my daughters ballet class on saturdays. I feel like I am alone here because we have no friends with children their age and every time I google groups in my area nothig really comes up. They really are not interested in museums or anything that requires sitting down on a chair, cutting and pasting information, the minute it becomes information to "know" they loose interest. I also feel very limiting to them, becau se we have this media issue, so we don't really allow them to watch tv, and we certainly don't allow them to use the computer, because we feel that they are too young for that kind of exposure.
So when I read that other unschoolers have D's, and movies, and ipods, ipads, and such I find myself feeling guilt, and pressure. I question if the "media policy" is serving them or not, I question wheather computers are apropriate at this age, I mean.... how do I find the middle ground? How do I know if it is right? How do I trust the process?
To sum it all up, I know I need to do some soul searching and some self work. Then, I need help on learning to listen, really listen to my children, because that is another thing I lack, and I need to learn how to say YES, and mean it (without conditions).
...*but most importantly, i need to learn how to unschool*...
I need help, on how to unschool without hurting my children, and I am sorry for this long message attached to my childhood story, but I just felt the need to explain a bit where my insecurities come from and why I am so confused as to "why or how" learning is "good or bad" and to which extend.
*if there is anyone out there willing to take this nutttt case (me) and give it a shake, a slap in the brain and welcome her (me) into the unschooling world, please reply to this message*
**All opinions welcomed :) **
Always searching,
Haydee
As I mentioned before, on an e-mail that Im uncertain went out to all, I am new to the unschooling. I have an almost 7yr old and a 4 year old. I have been reading the posts and messages with all the concerns we all have, and I must say that I have been finding my way through a bunch of them, however I still find my self in need of direction.
As much as I love the concept and idea of unschooling, I don't really think I know the "how to" unschool. I am not a trained teacher, or come from a "schooled" family. It is all the contrary. My mother only went as far as 9th grade, and my father was gone before I could open my eyes sord of speak, so whenever I expressed any sort of interest in schooling or learning it was put out like poaring 50 gallons of water on a single match. I can remember saying I wanted to be an astronaut and being told that it would be impossible, because it was only a man's job, then I chose to be a firefighter and was also told I couldn't because it also was a man's job. So from the age of 6 and on (until I became and adult) I wanted to be a surgeon. I always had a liking for the body and how it all worked, to the point that I read an entire medical encyclopedia when I was 15. I did that, secretly because I was afraid of being caught and told it was wrong. When I was 16.5 I told my mother I wanted to be a surgeon and go to med school after graduating high school, and she literally laughed in my face and said I was too dumb and stupid to make it through shcool, she said why don't you carve a turkey instead... (mind you that I was an A,B student at the time). This totally crushed me!!!!
I had been struggling to find my way and find who I was my entire childhood, and still am. The thing is that then I got into modeling, and realized (then) how easy it would be to make a living without using the brain, and decided that being "dumb and stupid" would eventually pay off. Well, it hasn't!
I am now 30, with 2 children, did not go to med school, and feel that I am in my way. Because I am so blocked, I feel like I can't serve my children the right way. I have soooo many doubts as to doing the right thing for them. I don't want to be the reason my children dont go to college if that is what they aspire (by not providing them with the "right" tools). I know that I need to do some work on myself, and I have for the past few years and come a long way, but I still have this "thought" that college is this graaaaaand place that will safe your life, when I know it isn't, but it creeps up so much, and then I push my daughter to read a page a day, or 2 pages if she skipped a day, I then wonder how can I "teach" her math and science in an usnchooling way (in case she wants to go the college route) what is apropriate for her age, can I introduce the human body, or would that be my "likes" in disguise?
I really want to truthfully let them unfold at their own pase, but I am so confused as to what is right and what is wrong that I don't know which direction to take.
I also have the concerns of my husband who feels that I should have some sort of learning rythm in which we do "learning"/"teaching" in a more creative way, and although I agree, I just don't seem to find the ways of dong this. (He really feels that she should read and know math)
In the past year, I don't really think my kids have socialized much, (which bothers me) other than park visits, and my daughters ballet class on saturdays. I feel like I am alone here because we have no friends with children their age and every time I google groups in my area nothig really comes up. They really are not interested in museums or anything that requires sitting down on a chair, cutting and pasting information, the minute it becomes information to "know" they loose interest. I also feel very limiting to them, becau se we have this media issue, so we don't really allow them to watch tv, and we certainly don't allow them to use the computer, because we feel that they are too young for that kind of exposure.
So when I read that other unschoolers have D's, and movies, and ipods, ipads, and such I find myself feeling guilt, and pressure. I question if the "media policy" is serving them or not, I question wheather computers are apropriate at this age, I mean.... how do I find the middle ground? How do I know if it is right? How do I trust the process?
To sum it all up, I know I need to do some soul searching and some self work. Then, I need help on learning to listen, really listen to my children, because that is another thing I lack, and I need to learn how to say YES, and mean it (without conditions).
...*but most importantly, i need to learn how to unschool*...
I need help, on how to unschool without hurting my children, and I am sorry for this long message attached to my childhood story, but I just felt the need to explain a bit where my insecurities come from and why I am so confused as to "why or how" learning is "good or bad" and to which extend.
*if there is anyone out there willing to take this nutttt case (me) and give it a shake, a slap in the brain and welcome her (me) into the unschooling world, please reply to this message*
**All opinions welcomed :) **
Always searching,
Haydee
Robin Bentley
> As I mentioned before, on an e-mail that Im uncertain went out toYou could start with reading at this page. Good info and links for
> all, I am new to the unschooling. I have an almost 7yr old and a 4
> year old. I have been reading the posts and messages with all the
> concerns we all have, and I must say that I have been finding my way
> through a bunch of them, however I still find my self in need of
> direction.
those new to unschooling.
http://sandradodd.com/help
Robin B.
Jenny Cyphers
***When I was 16.5 I told my mother I wanted to be a surgeon and go to med school after graduating high school, and she literally laughed in my face and said I was too dumb and stupid to make it through shcool, she said why don't you carve a turkey instead... (mind you that I was an A,B student at the time). This totally crushed me!!!!***
***I also feel very limiting to them, becau se we have this media issue, so we don't really allow them to watch tv, and we certainly don't allow them to use the computer, because we feel that they are too young for that kind of exposure.***
***So when I read that other unschoolers have D's, and movies, and ipods, ipads, and such I find myself feeling guilt, and pressure. I question if the "media policy" is serving them or not, I question wheather computers are apropriate at this age, I mean.... how do I find the middle ground? How do I know if it is right? How do I trust the process?***
I pulled out these three parts because to me, they are about the same issue. IF you want to unschool, the world needs to be open and expansive. What you are describing above, what your mom did and what you are doing are both things that limit and destroy potential and possibilities.
What would it have felt like if you had seen something amazing on TV about a woman surgeon, or firefighter or astronaut. How would that have changed anything? What kinds of things are your own kids exposed to? Are you opening up their world to show them all the possibilities? Those possibilities don't need to come from TV or computers, but to discourage those things would be like discouraging the use of cars because horses are perfectly fine. Those things exist and are a part of our culture and our world. They are tools that are important to know and navigate. When my oldest was born, the internet was in its infancy. I didn't and couldn't imagine life with computers now, only a childhood distance in time away. As soon as we could, we acquired a computer and internet. It was cool and new and interesting and of course our little girl wanted in on that! We found fun things for her to do. The way my kids use and interact with that
technology is incredible. It's a connection to the tool that I don't really have as an adult that grew up without that.
As for TV and movies, there is just so much that has shaped the people that my children are because of those things. My oldest is 18, and when I look back to what she knows and what she's learned and how, I can point it all back to Pokemon and her love of that show and her gameboy game. It's like a big connect the dot puzzle that draws a picture of my daughter and the number 1 is Pokemon. What she loves now is doing hair. She found that love because of horror movies. She found horror movies through anime which she found because of Pokemon. She learned how to read because of manga and read real novels because of horror movies and wanting to compare the books on which they were made. The love of horror movies lead us to work in haunted houses and she learned how to use tools and do acting and make-up and costuming. For the first time in her life she felt like she belonged in the world, there were people JUST like her who loved things JUST
like her. It was profound in how that shaped who she is now.
I can't imagine how our life would have been if I hadn't allowed her to watch Pokemon when she was 3 or so and if I hadn't allowed her to play her Pokemon gameboy game. She still plays Pokemon. We played some really great games together as a family because of that interest. Really great family memories were made through that love.
***To sum it all up, I know I need to do some soul searching and some self work. Then, I need help on learning to listen, really listen to my children, because that is another thing I lack, and I need to learn how to say YES, and mean it (without conditions).***
Say "yes" because you want them to be interested and interesting people. Say it because you want to see their faces light up and you want to experience the big cool interesting world with them. Say it because you see the value in things that they are interested in. Say it because you find value in life and all the things in it!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
***I also feel very limiting to them, becau se we have this media issue, so we don't really allow them to watch tv, and we certainly don't allow them to use the computer, because we feel that they are too young for that kind of exposure.***
***So when I read that other unschoolers have D's, and movies, and ipods, ipads, and such I find myself feeling guilt, and pressure. I question if the "media policy" is serving them or not, I question wheather computers are apropriate at this age, I mean.... how do I find the middle ground? How do I know if it is right? How do I trust the process?***
I pulled out these three parts because to me, they are about the same issue. IF you want to unschool, the world needs to be open and expansive. What you are describing above, what your mom did and what you are doing are both things that limit and destroy potential and possibilities.
What would it have felt like if you had seen something amazing on TV about a woman surgeon, or firefighter or astronaut. How would that have changed anything? What kinds of things are your own kids exposed to? Are you opening up their world to show them all the possibilities? Those possibilities don't need to come from TV or computers, but to discourage those things would be like discouraging the use of cars because horses are perfectly fine. Those things exist and are a part of our culture and our world. They are tools that are important to know and navigate. When my oldest was born, the internet was in its infancy. I didn't and couldn't imagine life with computers now, only a childhood distance in time away. As soon as we could, we acquired a computer and internet. It was cool and new and interesting and of course our little girl wanted in on that! We found fun things for her to do. The way my kids use and interact with that
technology is incredible. It's a connection to the tool that I don't really have as an adult that grew up without that.
As for TV and movies, there is just so much that has shaped the people that my children are because of those things. My oldest is 18, and when I look back to what she knows and what she's learned and how, I can point it all back to Pokemon and her love of that show and her gameboy game. It's like a big connect the dot puzzle that draws a picture of my daughter and the number 1 is Pokemon. What she loves now is doing hair. She found that love because of horror movies. She found horror movies through anime which she found because of Pokemon. She learned how to read because of manga and read real novels because of horror movies and wanting to compare the books on which they were made. The love of horror movies lead us to work in haunted houses and she learned how to use tools and do acting and make-up and costuming. For the first time in her life she felt like she belonged in the world, there were people JUST like her who loved things JUST
like her. It was profound in how that shaped who she is now.
I can't imagine how our life would have been if I hadn't allowed her to watch Pokemon when she was 3 or so and if I hadn't allowed her to play her Pokemon gameboy game. She still plays Pokemon. We played some really great games together as a family because of that interest. Really great family memories were made through that love.
***To sum it all up, I know I need to do some soul searching and some self work. Then, I need help on learning to listen, really listen to my children, because that is another thing I lack, and I need to learn how to say YES, and mean it (without conditions).***
Say "yes" because you want them to be interested and interesting people. Say it because you want to see their faces light up and you want to experience the big cool interesting world with them. Say it because you see the value in things that they are interested in. Say it because you find value in life and all the things in it!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Meredith
"shybarbie22" <shybarbie22@...> wrote:
Maybe you don't - it seems like you've been really focused on cataloging what's "wrong" with yourself, and that's keeping you stuck. Step away from that. What do you care about? What are your interests, your values? What makes you smile? Invest more time and energy in those things. Catch yourself when you find you're starting to wallow and shift your attention to something better.
It might be useful to get some kind of self-help book if you have specific skills you want to build. Something like "Raising our children, raising ourselves" by Naomi Aldort might be good in that regard.
This is something to work on. When you find you want to push your daughter to do something academic, choose to do something else. What else depends on you - go read something on Sandra's or Joyce's site to calm you down, maybe. Or go do a project of your own. Or suggest something fun, or sweet to do together. Or look at her, smell her hair, and savor the fact that you have a lovely, healthy child in your home. See what she's doing - can you join in?
What do you care about? What do you value? Use those as your guide. If you value joyful living, that gives you something to compare and measure - does this choice add more joy to your world?
Why do you want to let your kids "unfold at their own pace"? I'm not asking to be critical, but because it sounds like a script you're repeating: children should unfold at their own pace. But what does it mean? Why is it a good thing? You don't need to come up with a 30-words-or-less answer, it's not a test! It's something to think about to help you clarify your principles.
At the core of unschooling are the ideas the learning is a natural human drive, and learning is personal. With those in mind, pushing a person to learn something he or she isn't interested in learning isn't so much "bad" as a waste of time and effort. People Do learn at their own pace and in their own way. You can make it easier for your kids by supporting their natural inclinations.
What do you imagine they want to do? It could help you to read about unschooling kids going about their daily lives and get a sense of the kinds of things real kids really like to watch, explore and play with, and how their parents help them do that safely. Check out some of the links at the bottom of this page as a place to start:
http://sandradodd.com/connections/
Take this for instance:
Why does it matter? I don't mean that in a snarky way, I mean what's so important about socializing? Do you think it's "good for them" in some way? Based on what standard? Do you see what I'm getting at? It seems like you're running on a bunch of scripts without much meaning behind them.
So, I'll lay out some of my values as an example. Kindness and generosity and joy are important to me. So if I look at my daughter and she seems dissatisfied or bored, I want to do something to help - I want to spread some kindness and joy. So I'll look for ways to do that. Will it help to visit more friends? Go someplace with animals (my daughter loves animals)? Is she happy with her current animation program or is she ready for something more complex? Has she finished her latest graphic novel? Does she need new shoes? Do I need to spend more time hanging out with her? Play a game, maybe (video or board game)? Go on an adventure together? Write together? I suggest things based on what I know about her - what sorts of things make her smile, light her up with enthusiasm, or pique her curiosity.
When I focus on those sorts of goals, learning takes care of itself. That's something that can be hard to see right away, especially if you have some schoolish expectations as to how learning happens. Read more about natural learning - that link above is a good place to start - so you can build up some confidence.
---Meredith
>> To sum it all up, I know I need to do some soul searching and some self work.**************
Maybe you don't - it seems like you've been really focused on cataloging what's "wrong" with yourself, and that's keeping you stuck. Step away from that. What do you care about? What are your interests, your values? What makes you smile? Invest more time and energy in those things. Catch yourself when you find you're starting to wallow and shift your attention to something better.
It might be useful to get some kind of self-help book if you have specific skills you want to build. Something like "Raising our children, raising ourselves" by Naomi Aldort might be good in that regard.
>>then I push my daughter to read a page a day, or 2 pages if she skipped a day, I then wonder how can I "teach" her math and science in an usnchooling way (in case she wants to go the college route) what is apropriate for her age, can I introduce the human body, or would that be my "likes" in disguise?************
This is something to work on. When you find you want to push your daughter to do something academic, choose to do something else. What else depends on you - go read something on Sandra's or Joyce's site to calm you down, maybe. Or go do a project of your own. Or suggest something fun, or sweet to do together. Or look at her, smell her hair, and savor the fact that you have a lovely, healthy child in your home. See what she's doing - can you join in?
>>> I really want to truthfully let them unfold at their own pase, but I am so confused as to what is right and what is wrong that I don't know which direction to take************
What do you care about? What do you value? Use those as your guide. If you value joyful living, that gives you something to compare and measure - does this choice add more joy to your world?
Why do you want to let your kids "unfold at their own pace"? I'm not asking to be critical, but because it sounds like a script you're repeating: children should unfold at their own pace. But what does it mean? Why is it a good thing? You don't need to come up with a 30-words-or-less answer, it's not a test! It's something to think about to help you clarify your principles.
At the core of unschooling are the ideas the learning is a natural human drive, and learning is personal. With those in mind, pushing a person to learn something he or she isn't interested in learning isn't so much "bad" as a waste of time and effort. People Do learn at their own pace and in their own way. You can make it easier for your kids by supporting their natural inclinations.
>>I also feel very limiting to them, becau se we have this media issue, so we don't really allow them to watch tv, and we certainly don't allow them to use the computer, because we feel that they are too young for that kind of exposure.***********
What do you imagine they want to do? It could help you to read about unschooling kids going about their daily lives and get a sense of the kinds of things real kids really like to watch, explore and play with, and how their parents help them do that safely. Check out some of the links at the bottom of this page as a place to start:
http://sandradodd.com/connections/
> ...*but most importantly, i need to learn how to unschool*...Start by getting a grip on what's important to you. Your values or principles make an important set of guides regardless of whether unschooling is what you decide is best for your family. You need a measure of "warmer/colder" so you know if you're making good choices or not.
Take this for instance:
> In the past year, I don't really think my kids have socialized much, (which bothers me) other than park visits, and my daughters ballet class on saturdays.**************
Why does it matter? I don't mean that in a snarky way, I mean what's so important about socializing? Do you think it's "good for them" in some way? Based on what standard? Do you see what I'm getting at? It seems like you're running on a bunch of scripts without much meaning behind them.
So, I'll lay out some of my values as an example. Kindness and generosity and joy are important to me. So if I look at my daughter and she seems dissatisfied or bored, I want to do something to help - I want to spread some kindness and joy. So I'll look for ways to do that. Will it help to visit more friends? Go someplace with animals (my daughter loves animals)? Is she happy with her current animation program or is she ready for something more complex? Has she finished her latest graphic novel? Does she need new shoes? Do I need to spend more time hanging out with her? Play a game, maybe (video or board game)? Go on an adventure together? Write together? I suggest things based on what I know about her - what sorts of things make her smile, light her up with enthusiasm, or pique her curiosity.
When I focus on those sorts of goals, learning takes care of itself. That's something that can be hard to see right away, especially if you have some schoolish expectations as to how learning happens. Read more about natural learning - that link above is a good place to start - so you can build up some confidence.
---Meredith
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jun 14, 2012, at 12:21 PM, shybarbie22 wrote:
Second, give them support and access to do more of what interest them.
Third, let them know about things that relate to their interests like TV shows, exhibitions and local people you can visit, websites. Stay attuned to them. Don't overwhelm them. Don't take over their interests. Do it as you would for a friend or your husband except more.
Fourth, take them places. Don't limit your ideas to museums. Go to grocery stores you've never been to. Farmer's markets. Ethnic restaurants and food stores. Drive down side roads rather than the same familiar road. New playgrounds and playspaces. Talk about what you like and don't like about each.
Fifth, bring interesting bits of the world into their world. *With no strings attached.* Don't get personally invested in them being interested in what you introduce. Be okay if they don't pick up something. This is not a way to get "important" information into them. It's a way of swirling interesting bits of the world around them that they might not stumble across.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> How do I know if it is right?First, by looking at your children. Are they happily engaged with what they're doing? When that's true, you're half way there. :-)
Second, give them support and access to do more of what interest them.
Third, let them know about things that relate to their interests like TV shows, exhibitions and local people you can visit, websites. Stay attuned to them. Don't overwhelm them. Don't take over their interests. Do it as you would for a friend or your husband except more.
Fourth, take them places. Don't limit your ideas to museums. Go to grocery stores you've never been to. Farmer's markets. Ethnic restaurants and food stores. Drive down side roads rather than the same familiar road. New playgrounds and playspaces. Talk about what you like and don't like about each.
Fifth, bring interesting bits of the world into their world. *With no strings attached.* Don't get personally invested in them being interested in what you introduce. Be okay if they don't pick up something. This is not a way to get "important" information into them. It's a way of swirling interesting bits of the world around them that they might not stumble across.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Regan
> I have soooo many doubts as to doing the right thing for them. I don't want to be the reason my children dont go to college if that is what they aspire (by not providing them with the "right" tools). I know that I need to do some work on myself, and I have for the past few years and come a long way, but I still have this "thought" that college is this graaaaaand place that will safe your life, when I know it isn't, but it creeps up so much, and then I push my daughter to read a page a day, or 2 pages if she skipped a day, I then wonder how can I "teach" her math and science in an usnchooling way (in case she wants to go the college route) what is apropriate for her age, can I introduce the human body, or would that be my "likes" in disguise?Take time to deschool. Deschooling is a prerequisite for most people coming to unschooling. Lots of information about it here: <http://sandradodd.com/deschooling>. Your current ideas and concerns about what your children need are very different from the principles that unschoolers live with. It takes time, care, thoughtfulness to make the journey from where you are now, to confidently unschooling.
> I really want to truthfully let them unfold at their own pase, but I am so confused as to what is right and what is wrong that I don't know which direction to take.
> I also have the concerns of my husband who feels that I should have some sort of learning rythm in which we do "learning"/"teaching" in a more creative way, and although I agree, I just don't seem to find the ways of dong this. (He really feels that she should read and know math)
> In the past year, I don't really think my kids have socialized much, (which bothers me)
> . I also feel very limiting to them, becau se we have this media issue, so we don't really allow them to watch tv, and we certainly don't allow them to use the computer, because we feel that they are too young for that kind of exposure.
> So when I read that other unschoolers have D's, and movies, and ipods, ipads, and such I find myself feeling guilt, and pressure. I question if the "media policy" is serving them or not, I question wheather computers are apropriate at this age, I mean.... how do I find the middle ground? How do I know if it is right? How do I trust the process?
> To sum it all up, I know I need to do some soul searching and some self work. Then, I need help on learning to listen, really listen to my children, because that is another thing I lack, and I need to learn how to say YES, and mean it (without conditions).It's often helpful to take a break from thinking about what you need to do to prepare your children for the future - a few months holiday from that being a focus. Instead focus on having fun and engaging with them in their interests. As you let life and relationships and play swirl around naturally in your family, you will open up to seeing all the learning that is going on, the depth and breadth of knowledge and understanding that are growing, the connections being made. As you learn about your children's learning, your confusion about how, how much, "middle ground", "how do I trust", "which direction to take" etc, will come to be replaced with confidence. From there, you'll be in a great place to take your next steps to unschooling.
> ...*but most importantly, i need to learn how to unschool*...
> I need help, on how to unschool without hurting my children, and I am sorry for this long message attached to my childhood story, but I just felt the need to explain a bit where my insecurities come from and why I am so confused as to "why or how" learning is "good or bad" and to which extend.
:-)
Debbie.
Pam Sorooshian
I have three unschooled kids now in their 20's. Today is my middle
daughter's college graduation ceremony. She graduates with highest honors
and as a member of Phi Beta Kappa (the most prestigious honor society). She
has a double major - history and drama. She's going on to graduate school
in the fall and plans to get a PhD. My oldest daughter just got her masters
degree in counseling and works as a family therapist. My youngest daughter
has an AA degree and a certificate in Interpreting for the Deaf and is a
junior in college working on her BA degree.
Unschooling seemed to have given them HUGE advantages in college. They
were, frankly, shocked at the poor preparation and attitudes of most other
students. Other students seemed to them to be "going through the motions,"
but were not really interested in learning. It is hard to explain, but all
three of my kids and all of their unschooled friends who have gone to
college have repeatedly tried to articulate that there seemed to be
"something wrong" with so many of the other students and that they seemed
actually resistant to learning. The unschooled kids were there because they
wanted to be there, first of all. They knew they had a choice and that
makes a big difference. A sense of coercion leads to either outright
rebellion, passive resistance, or apathy and my kids saw all of those
playing out among the majority of their fellow students.
I have been a college professor for 36 years and have taught at community
colleges and prestigious universities. VERY few students are there to learn
- they are there to jump through the required hoops to get the degree. The
unschooled kids (I've had a few in my classes) far outshine most of the
other students. Even unschooled kids I didn't think of as academic-leaning
kids have done extremely well in college if they decided to go for their
own reasons.
I don't think everybody should go to college. I don't think it should be
held up as the only legitimate goal or as THE way to measure success. I
think that there are other fantastic alternatives and unschooled kids are
well prepared to do all KINDS of things, college being just one of them. My
kids love college - they've really really enjoyed it. They've taken
advantage of the huge pool of human and physical resources it offers.
They've used the labs and studios - ceramics, photography, astronomy,
computers, automotive technology, music studios, technical theater shop,
and on and on. They've gone to events, festivals, speakers, trips, shows.
Roxana recently saw Rainn Wilson (Dwight on The Office) speak about the
persecution of the Baha'is in Iran). Roya just got back from a week-long
camping trip with 20 college students on an island in the Pacific Ocean -
it is part of a college course that she took as a student and now she is
hired as a staff person. Yesterday was Rosie's advising appointment at the
university she'll be attending in the fall. She's a Deaf Studies major and
it was awesome for her to be in a place (Deaf Studies Department) where
everyone was using ASL - her entire advising appointment where they went
over all the course offerings and her interests and background was all held
in ASL. (She's hearing, by the way, but is an interpreter and loves ASL.)
The National Center of Deafness is on her campus - a building filled to
overflowing with DVD's - all in ASL. Most of Rosie's professors will be
Deaf. Rosie is going to be living in a special on-campus community that is
focused on exploring Los Angeles together - going to museums and
interesting sites. She's planning on joining a sorority and an a capella
singing group.
IF college is what they want, unschooled kids can do way more than just
"get in" or just "go" - they can revel in it and take advantage of the
amazing pool of resources and opportunities that colleges can offer.
AND, if they are interested in going a different direction, they can do
that with the same gusto! Blake Boles' new book, "Better than College," is
full of all kinds of ideas for alternatives. Even though all three of my
kids ended up choosing college for very specific reasons, and have totally
loved it, I think the alternatives are also really amazing and I would have
been happy to have supported my kids in other endeavors!
If you push your daughter to read or do other schoolish things, she will
learn things - among those, she will learn to resist, rebel, or become as
apathetic as most college students. IF she does go to college, she probably
won't get the most out of it. She'll very likely be one of the vast
majority of students who does the bare minimum, doesn't make connections on
her own, focuses on grades instead of learning, and just puts in her time
to get the degree. It is a sad waste.
There are only a handful of college degrees that guarantee jobs and income.
Engineering usually does. Nursing. I teach mostly business majors - the
majority of those are not going to find any better job after graduation
than they would have had if they'd spent those four years working. Many
college students should be rethinking what they're doing there.
My kids chose college because: 1) Roya wants to be a licensed family
therapist and a masters degree is required for that; 2) Roxana LOVES
academic research and wants to do it as a career; and 3) Rosie wants to be
a RID certified ASL interpreter and, as of July 1, 2012, that will require
a bachelor's degree.
Pushing school on kids is not going to make them better prepared for
college. Quite the opposite.
-pam
daughter's college graduation ceremony. She graduates with highest honors
and as a member of Phi Beta Kappa (the most prestigious honor society). She
has a double major - history and drama. She's going on to graduate school
in the fall and plans to get a PhD. My oldest daughter just got her masters
degree in counseling and works as a family therapist. My youngest daughter
has an AA degree and a certificate in Interpreting for the Deaf and is a
junior in college working on her BA degree.
Unschooling seemed to have given them HUGE advantages in college. They
were, frankly, shocked at the poor preparation and attitudes of most other
students. Other students seemed to them to be "going through the motions,"
but were not really interested in learning. It is hard to explain, but all
three of my kids and all of their unschooled friends who have gone to
college have repeatedly tried to articulate that there seemed to be
"something wrong" with so many of the other students and that they seemed
actually resistant to learning. The unschooled kids were there because they
wanted to be there, first of all. They knew they had a choice and that
makes a big difference. A sense of coercion leads to either outright
rebellion, passive resistance, or apathy and my kids saw all of those
playing out among the majority of their fellow students.
I have been a college professor for 36 years and have taught at community
colleges and prestigious universities. VERY few students are there to learn
- they are there to jump through the required hoops to get the degree. The
unschooled kids (I've had a few in my classes) far outshine most of the
other students. Even unschooled kids I didn't think of as academic-leaning
kids have done extremely well in college if they decided to go for their
own reasons.
I don't think everybody should go to college. I don't think it should be
held up as the only legitimate goal or as THE way to measure success. I
think that there are other fantastic alternatives and unschooled kids are
well prepared to do all KINDS of things, college being just one of them. My
kids love college - they've really really enjoyed it. They've taken
advantage of the huge pool of human and physical resources it offers.
They've used the labs and studios - ceramics, photography, astronomy,
computers, automotive technology, music studios, technical theater shop,
and on and on. They've gone to events, festivals, speakers, trips, shows.
Roxana recently saw Rainn Wilson (Dwight on The Office) speak about the
persecution of the Baha'is in Iran). Roya just got back from a week-long
camping trip with 20 college students on an island in the Pacific Ocean -
it is part of a college course that she took as a student and now she is
hired as a staff person. Yesterday was Rosie's advising appointment at the
university she'll be attending in the fall. She's a Deaf Studies major and
it was awesome for her to be in a place (Deaf Studies Department) where
everyone was using ASL - her entire advising appointment where they went
over all the course offerings and her interests and background was all held
in ASL. (She's hearing, by the way, but is an interpreter and loves ASL.)
The National Center of Deafness is on her campus - a building filled to
overflowing with DVD's - all in ASL. Most of Rosie's professors will be
Deaf. Rosie is going to be living in a special on-campus community that is
focused on exploring Los Angeles together - going to museums and
interesting sites. She's planning on joining a sorority and an a capella
singing group.
IF college is what they want, unschooled kids can do way more than just
"get in" or just "go" - they can revel in it and take advantage of the
amazing pool of resources and opportunities that colleges can offer.
AND, if they are interested in going a different direction, they can do
that with the same gusto! Blake Boles' new book, "Better than College," is
full of all kinds of ideas for alternatives. Even though all three of my
kids ended up choosing college for very specific reasons, and have totally
loved it, I think the alternatives are also really amazing and I would have
been happy to have supported my kids in other endeavors!
If you push your daughter to read or do other schoolish things, she will
learn things - among those, she will learn to resist, rebel, or become as
apathetic as most college students. IF she does go to college, she probably
won't get the most out of it. She'll very likely be one of the vast
majority of students who does the bare minimum, doesn't make connections on
her own, focuses on grades instead of learning, and just puts in her time
to get the degree. It is a sad waste.
There are only a handful of college degrees that guarantee jobs and income.
Engineering usually does. Nursing. I teach mostly business majors - the
majority of those are not going to find any better job after graduation
than they would have had if they'd spent those four years working. Many
college students should be rethinking what they're doing there.
My kids chose college because: 1) Roya wants to be a licensed family
therapist and a masters degree is required for that; 2) Roxana LOVES
academic research and wants to do it as a career; and 3) Rosie wants to be
a RID certified ASL interpreter and, as of July 1, 2012, that will require
a bachelor's degree.
Pushing school on kids is not going to make them better prepared for
college. Quite the opposite.
-pam
On Fri, Jun 15, 2012 at 11:25 AM, Regan <oregano3@...> wrote:
> > I have soooo many doubts as to doing the right thing for them. I don't
> want to be the reason my children dont go to college if that is what they
> aspire (by not providing them with the "right" tools). I know that I need
> to do some work on myself, and I have for the past few years and come a
> long way, but I still have this "thought" that college is this graaaaaand
> place that will safe your life, when I know it isn't, but it creeps up so
> much, and then I push my daughter to read a page a day, or 2 pages if she
> skipped a day,
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
in4mkaren
Days after reading your answer, Joyce, I'm still ruminating about it. Thanks! It puts strewing into perspective for me. And thanks that you made it into a short checklist. I'm a checklist person. Checklists are good as long as they serve the family instead of making the family serve the checklist.
And Pam, I'm also still ruminating over the record keeping list you posted a while back. (What are they reading, doing, making, watching...?) In fact I just went and got both off them off-list for me to keep.
Also I'm loving the stuff on chores from your websites, Sandra and Joyce! I needed the refresher.
Thanks again!
Karen (W.)
And Pam, I'm also still ruminating over the record keeping list you posted a while back. (What are they reading, doing, making, watching...?) In fact I just went and got both off them off-list for me to keep.
Also I'm loving the stuff on chores from your websites, Sandra and Joyce! I needed the refresher.
Thanks again!
Karen (W.)
--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...> wrote:
>
>
> On Jun 14, 2012, at 12:21 PM, shybarbie22 wrote:
>
> > How do I know if it is right?
>
> First, by looking at your children. Are they happily engaged with what they're doing? When that's true, you're half way there. :-)
>
> Second, give them support and access to do more of what interest them.
>
> Third, let them know about things that relate to their interests like TV shows, exhibitions and local people you can visit, websites. Stay attuned to them. Don't overwhelm them. Don't take over their interests. Do it as you would for a friend or your husband except more.
>
> Fourth, take them places. Don't limit your ideas to museums. Go to grocery stores you've never been to. Farmer's markets. Ethnic restaurants and food stores. Drive down side roads rather than the same familiar road. New playgrounds and playspaces. Talk about what you like and don't like about each.
>
> Fifth, bring interesting bits of the world into their world. *With no strings attached.* Don't get personally invested in them being interested in what you introduce. Be okay if they don't pick up something. This is not a way to get "important" information into them. It's a way of swirling interesting bits of the world around them that they might not stumble across.
>
> Joyce
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Sandra Dodd
Don't let a checklist become a curriculum, or to cause you to be inflexible, and then checklists aren't bad.
http://sandradodd.com/checklist
Even though some are intended to represent a curriculum, for people who are required to have one to show a government agency, it should still represent an environment of exploration and play.
Sandra
http://sandradodd.com/checklist
Even though some are intended to represent a curriculum, for people who are required to have one to show a government agency, it should still represent an environment of exploration and play.
Sandra
haydee deldenovese
I want to fianally say THANK YOU to all those who replied and commented on
my previuos posts. Although time got in the way of my response, I used it
to my advantage and went and got the unschooling rules book, and did some
real thinking about everyones comments and I must say that it all sounds so
true to me, and that maybe I was resiting what I have been hearing from
others. Perhaps the "{idea}" of being the perfect parent was keeping me
further and further from being my self with the kids, and really enjoying
them. I had many conversaitions with my husband and after going back and
forth a few times, and having good debates from both sides, we came to the
conclusion that we do in fact want to unschool, and do what is best for the
children, which is to LISTEN, LOVE AND ENCOURAGE them in their live long
journeys. I will continue to reach out to all of you, in a monthly basis,
sinse I know it will take a constant comunication and connection, to keep
feeling empowered and on purpose.
Both my husband and I are now open to letting the kids watch a little TV
(we still agree that 6-8 hours of television isnt healthy for a child) and
even pehaps allow my 7yr old to spend some time in the computer to look up
things that she may like if she is interested. So again, thank you for all
the support...
:) Haydee :0)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
my previuos posts. Although time got in the way of my response, I used it
to my advantage and went and got the unschooling rules book, and did some
real thinking about everyones comments and I must say that it all sounds so
true to me, and that maybe I was resiting what I have been hearing from
others. Perhaps the "{idea}" of being the perfect parent was keeping me
further and further from being my self with the kids, and really enjoying
them. I had many conversaitions with my husband and after going back and
forth a few times, and having good debates from both sides, we came to the
conclusion that we do in fact want to unschool, and do what is best for the
children, which is to LISTEN, LOVE AND ENCOURAGE them in their live long
journeys. I will continue to reach out to all of you, in a monthly basis,
sinse I know it will take a constant comunication and connection, to keep
feeling empowered and on purpose.
Both my husband and I are now open to letting the kids watch a little TV
(we still agree that 6-8 hours of television isnt healthy for a child) and
even pehaps allow my 7yr old to spend some time in the computer to look up
things that she may like if she is interested. So again, thank you for all
the support...
:) Haydee :0)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I will continue to reach out to all of you, in a monthly basis,
sinse I know it will take a constant comunication and connection, to keep
feeling empowered and on purpose.-=-
I hope that doesn't mean that you won't read but once a month.
We don't need to hear monthly what you're doing, but it would help you to read daily what other issues might come along with unschooling that you haven't even thought of.
Sandra, the listowner
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
sinse I know it will take a constant comunication and connection, to keep
feeling empowered and on purpose.-=-
I hope that doesn't mean that you won't read but once a month.
We don't need to hear monthly what you're doing, but it would help you to read daily what other issues might come along with unschooling that you haven't even thought of.
Sandra, the listowner
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
haydee deldenovese
Oh no, not at all... I will read weekly, and daily once I get a computer in
my home... but in any case that I come up with questions or concerns is
what I meant :)
Regards...
Haydee
my home... but in any case that I come up with questions or concerns is
what I meant :)
Regards...
Haydee
On Jun 20, 2012 1:40 PM, "Sandra Dodd" <Sandra@...> wrote:
> **
>
>
> -=-I will continue to reach out to all of you, in a monthly basis,
> sinse I know it will take a constant comunication and connection, to keep
> feeling empowered and on purpose.-=-
>
> I hope that doesn't mean that you won't read but once a month.
>
> We don't need to hear monthly what you're doing, but it would help you to
> read daily what other issues might come along with unschooling that you
> haven't even thought of.
>
> Sandra, the listowner
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jun 20, 2012, at 8:49 AM, haydee deldenovese wrote:
Think about if your husband disagreed with say, how much water you should drink in a day. And when you reached 5 glasses he said "No more." The most relationship undermining part is that he's watching and counting. It's really kind of creepy and it would make me want to drink out of sight. Then he's saying he doesn't care what you want, that his agenda for you is more important.
*Why* a child might watch 6-8 hours of TV is far more important than the number of hours.
If there were restrictions before and they enjoy visual story telling medium, their buckets have been empty for a long time. They'll want to revel in it until they feel there will always be as much as they want whenever they want.
People tend to hoard water if they fear they will run out. If they can get as much water as they want whenever they want, there's no need to hoard.
This stage won't last forever. It will depend on how much they love this kind of story telling (how much they're visual and auditory learners for example). It will depend on how much they trust that TV won't be restricted again. If you have shown them a pattern of restricting, removing, restricting again, it will take them longer to trust.
If they're tweens, they often do go through a transition period where TV and video games are exactly what their brains need. During those years their TV watching and video game playing often goes up. And when they hit their teens, their interests expand.
If they're using TV as downtime or escape -- as school kids do -- well, that's one of the reasons to unschool! We can shape their environment so they don't need to escape.
If they're using it for recovery from a difficult time (like school), think of it as like a broken leg. The leg needs that rest period in order to heal.
If they're watching TV because the rest of the options aren't interesting *from their point of view* then it's up to the parents to be more connected, to get to know their kids and what they like better, to offer more intriguing, more connecting (to the parents, to interests) options. It's up to the parents to *be* more interesting.
Offer them more choices that *they* find intriguing *in addition* to TV rather than instead of it. Don't try to pull them from TV. Add more to their life so they have more choices.
If you're worried about what she will see, be with her and explore with her. Be her partner. Be intrigued. Be her resource to draw on so she can make informed choices about how far outside her comfort zone she wants to go. Be someone she can share what she discovers with.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Both my husband and I are now open to letting the kids watch a little TVIt will be helpful for unschooling to, rather than loosening the restrictions, to just say yes more.
Think about if your husband disagreed with say, how much water you should drink in a day. And when you reached 5 glasses he said "No more." The most relationship undermining part is that he's watching and counting. It's really kind of creepy and it would make me want to drink out of sight. Then he's saying he doesn't care what you want, that his agenda for you is more important.
*Why* a child might watch 6-8 hours of TV is far more important than the number of hours.
If there were restrictions before and they enjoy visual story telling medium, their buckets have been empty for a long time. They'll want to revel in it until they feel there will always be as much as they want whenever they want.
People tend to hoard water if they fear they will run out. If they can get as much water as they want whenever they want, there's no need to hoard.
This stage won't last forever. It will depend on how much they love this kind of story telling (how much they're visual and auditory learners for example). It will depend on how much they trust that TV won't be restricted again. If you have shown them a pattern of restricting, removing, restricting again, it will take them longer to trust.
If they're tweens, they often do go through a transition period where TV and video games are exactly what their brains need. During those years their TV watching and video game playing often goes up. And when they hit their teens, their interests expand.
If they're using TV as downtime or escape -- as school kids do -- well, that's one of the reasons to unschool! We can shape their environment so they don't need to escape.
If they're using it for recovery from a difficult time (like school), think of it as like a broken leg. The leg needs that rest period in order to heal.
If they're watching TV because the rest of the options aren't interesting *from their point of view* then it's up to the parents to be more connected, to get to know their kids and what they like better, to offer more intriguing, more connecting (to the parents, to interests) options. It's up to the parents to *be* more interesting.
> (we still agree that 6-8 hours of television isnt healthy for a child)What isn't healthy for anyone
Offer them more choices that *they* find intriguing *in addition* to TV rather than instead of it. Don't try to pull them from TV. Add more to their life so they have more choices.
> and"And perhaps allow my 7 yo to spend some time in the library to look up things that she may like if she's interested."
> even pehaps allow my 7yr old to spend some time in the computer to look up
> things that she may like if she is interested.
If you're worried about what she will see, be with her and explore with her. Be her partner. Be intrigued. Be her resource to draw on so she can make informed choices about how far outside her comfort zone she wants to go. Be someone she can share what she discovers with.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
haydee deldenovese
I get what you are telling me, but I just cant do it all over night. I have
been parenting the same way for 7 years now, and it isn't easy to just let
go of it all at once. I come from a very restricted family, and as we all
know we do what we were taught, so I am in the process of watching my self
and catching my self every day. My mom used to tell us ALWAYS that she had
a headache every time we asked her to play with us, and years ago, I caught
myself saying that to my daughter when it wasn't true. That was the turning
point for me, when I realized I was becoming my mother and I did not want
to, so I began to make changes. Although I still have a long way to go to
reach your level or Sandra's or many of the other great unschooling moms, I
am striving for it and slowly making adjustments, it just is hard to do it
overnight for me.
I also don't want to engage their frontal lobe too much at their age
(mainly my son who is 4) there have been many studies done on this, and a
lot of it makes sense to me, and the last thing I want to do is to damage
their perfect little brains with the quick changes of the television. I am
open to movies and on demand, anything that has no commercials and that
doesn't change frame to frame in milliseconds. The thing also is that
because I have not let them watch much, they really don't know what is out
there, there for they don't really know what they want to watch, so I would
still be choosing for them what to watch. I also don't think that if my 7yr
old decided she wants to watch a show for teens I should let her, I mean
that is why they have ratings, no?
It's like I agree with much of what this group says, but then I also have
my disagreements, because letting a child be on the computer, all day
(because he/she wants to) I don't think can be healthy. I believe that
there always has to be moderation and that too much of something isn't
good, and as a parent I should take action on when to say no. I mean take
this for instance... Your 5 year old sees you or your husband having a
beer, and he decides he wants to try it, would you say yes? and if you do,
and he likes it and would like to have one for himself, would you give it
to him? He is only 5, but saying yes to everything, I don't think applies
here. Unless of course you would give him the beer....
Same as if your child said, I feel invincible and I feel that I can walk in
front of a moving truck and not get hurt, would you encourage him to?
Because Id rather say no to that as well... The thing with the computer, is
that there have been many researches done on that as well, that people that
(work) or spend too much time in front of the computer begin to develop eye
problems, carpal tunnel syndrome, etc so I feel that if I can provide the
computer usage a little later in life, once their bodies are stronger, then
I am doing a good thing. If I can guide them to appropriate shows in
television, and hold their hand through the growing process, then I am
doing my job as a mother. I do know that they are individuals, and that I
should allow them to explore to their liking, so I do spend a lot of time
asking them about what they like and or would like to do for the day, and
try my best to meet those needs, but there are going to be times when a
parent has to say no, and that is okay too in my opinion. My son for
example... he would love to go to the toy store every day and buy a toy.
Toys that will lay around the house collecting dog hair, and that I have to
be picking up daily (not that this is the problem). In a case like this, I
find it okay to say no, I'm sorry but we cannot go to the store and get
another toy, for one thing, we don't have the money to be buying toys every
day, another is that we don't like to consume so much stuff that will end
up in a landfill some day, and most importantly, we don't want to teach
them that is okay to spend frivolously. Not that we want to turn them into
money hoarders, but we want to teach them that there is a balance with
everything, and a consequence. "if you spend your 10$ on this toy, we wont
have enough for your horse riding lesson that you want, or we won't have
enough for the toy car that you want. We want them to safe for things
that really matters to them, not just to spend for spending sake. So saying
no, in occasions can be a healthy thing, in my opinion. I honestly think
that even if I had millions of dollars, I still wouldn't spend so much
money on so many toys...
...but back to the TV issue... I see your point and I will take what will
benefit me, but respectfully disagree on the terms that they should choose
how much time they should spend in front of the TV.
...here's also something... before my first was born, I knew I didn't want
her to watch TV until at least 2yrs of age. I did follow with that, as best
as I could, and then, she had so many imaginary friends and was able to
spend hours playing with them, and her imagination ran wild. I loved
watching this play unfold before my eyes, and then... I went to visit my
sister who had young ones as well, who watched a lot of TV and who knew
(her kids) every Disney character that there was at that time, they knew
them by name, and had all kinds of toys and clothes and brushes form all
this characters that my daughter did not know. Well, to say the least after
that trip, I felt like I failed my daughter and that I was keeping her from
"learning about the world out there" so I began to let her watch TV. I
allowed her to watch as much as she wanted, so she could familiarize
herself with the Disney characters, and whatever she wanted to see on TV.
This went for 2years, and during those 2 years I felt terrible, because you
know what???
My daughter's imaginary friends had disappeared, now they were replaced by
Disney characters, she no longer used of her imagination to create the
people she wanted. Instead, they were created for her... do you see my
point? the mind became lazy. Now, she did not entertain herself, but needed
to be entertained, and one of the biggest problems in society today is that
humans don't know how to be alone, everyone needs something outside the
self to entertain them, and this is what I do NOT want for my kids, because
I don't consider that healthy. My niece needs the TV on, while she plays a
board game, just to have noise on the background. I don't find that to be
healthy. It steals you from the moment, of being present to that game and
really engaging with the other players. I feel that the more and more
exposure they have with TV and computers, the less and less human
interaction they will have, like in the case of the mom with her 12 yr
old...
I know that most of this group will disagree with these points, and maybe
perhaps in years I might share your point of view, but as for right now,
this is how I feel and I don't see allowing endless viewing in the near
future. I believe that although they are individuals, they are young and
need guidance. Even a lion or tiger teaches the cub to hunt, and watches
closely their whereabouts...
Haydee
been parenting the same way for 7 years now, and it isn't easy to just let
go of it all at once. I come from a very restricted family, and as we all
know we do what we were taught, so I am in the process of watching my self
and catching my self every day. My mom used to tell us ALWAYS that she had
a headache every time we asked her to play with us, and years ago, I caught
myself saying that to my daughter when it wasn't true. That was the turning
point for me, when I realized I was becoming my mother and I did not want
to, so I began to make changes. Although I still have a long way to go to
reach your level or Sandra's or many of the other great unschooling moms, I
am striving for it and slowly making adjustments, it just is hard to do it
overnight for me.
I also don't want to engage their frontal lobe too much at their age
(mainly my son who is 4) there have been many studies done on this, and a
lot of it makes sense to me, and the last thing I want to do is to damage
their perfect little brains with the quick changes of the television. I am
open to movies and on demand, anything that has no commercials and that
doesn't change frame to frame in milliseconds. The thing also is that
because I have not let them watch much, they really don't know what is out
there, there for they don't really know what they want to watch, so I would
still be choosing for them what to watch. I also don't think that if my 7yr
old decided she wants to watch a show for teens I should let her, I mean
that is why they have ratings, no?
It's like I agree with much of what this group says, but then I also have
my disagreements, because letting a child be on the computer, all day
(because he/she wants to) I don't think can be healthy. I believe that
there always has to be moderation and that too much of something isn't
good, and as a parent I should take action on when to say no. I mean take
this for instance... Your 5 year old sees you or your husband having a
beer, and he decides he wants to try it, would you say yes? and if you do,
and he likes it and would like to have one for himself, would you give it
to him? He is only 5, but saying yes to everything, I don't think applies
here. Unless of course you would give him the beer....
Same as if your child said, I feel invincible and I feel that I can walk in
front of a moving truck and not get hurt, would you encourage him to?
Because Id rather say no to that as well... The thing with the computer, is
that there have been many researches done on that as well, that people that
(work) or spend too much time in front of the computer begin to develop eye
problems, carpal tunnel syndrome, etc so I feel that if I can provide the
computer usage a little later in life, once their bodies are stronger, then
I am doing a good thing. If I can guide them to appropriate shows in
television, and hold their hand through the growing process, then I am
doing my job as a mother. I do know that they are individuals, and that I
should allow them to explore to their liking, so I do spend a lot of time
asking them about what they like and or would like to do for the day, and
try my best to meet those needs, but there are going to be times when a
parent has to say no, and that is okay too in my opinion. My son for
example... he would love to go to the toy store every day and buy a toy.
Toys that will lay around the house collecting dog hair, and that I have to
be picking up daily (not that this is the problem). In a case like this, I
find it okay to say no, I'm sorry but we cannot go to the store and get
another toy, for one thing, we don't have the money to be buying toys every
day, another is that we don't like to consume so much stuff that will end
up in a landfill some day, and most importantly, we don't want to teach
them that is okay to spend frivolously. Not that we want to turn them into
money hoarders, but we want to teach them that there is a balance with
everything, and a consequence. "if you spend your 10$ on this toy, we wont
have enough for your horse riding lesson that you want, or we won't have
enough for the toy car that you want. We want them to safe for things
that really matters to them, not just to spend for spending sake. So saying
no, in occasions can be a healthy thing, in my opinion. I honestly think
that even if I had millions of dollars, I still wouldn't spend so much
money on so many toys...
...but back to the TV issue... I see your point and I will take what will
benefit me, but respectfully disagree on the terms that they should choose
how much time they should spend in front of the TV.
...here's also something... before my first was born, I knew I didn't want
her to watch TV until at least 2yrs of age. I did follow with that, as best
as I could, and then, she had so many imaginary friends and was able to
spend hours playing with them, and her imagination ran wild. I loved
watching this play unfold before my eyes, and then... I went to visit my
sister who had young ones as well, who watched a lot of TV and who knew
(her kids) every Disney character that there was at that time, they knew
them by name, and had all kinds of toys and clothes and brushes form all
this characters that my daughter did not know. Well, to say the least after
that trip, I felt like I failed my daughter and that I was keeping her from
"learning about the world out there" so I began to let her watch TV. I
allowed her to watch as much as she wanted, so she could familiarize
herself with the Disney characters, and whatever she wanted to see on TV.
This went for 2years, and during those 2 years I felt terrible, because you
know what???
My daughter's imaginary friends had disappeared, now they were replaced by
Disney characters, she no longer used of her imagination to create the
people she wanted. Instead, they were created for her... do you see my
point? the mind became lazy. Now, she did not entertain herself, but needed
to be entertained, and one of the biggest problems in society today is that
humans don't know how to be alone, everyone needs something outside the
self to entertain them, and this is what I do NOT want for my kids, because
I don't consider that healthy. My niece needs the TV on, while she plays a
board game, just to have noise on the background. I don't find that to be
healthy. It steals you from the moment, of being present to that game and
really engaging with the other players. I feel that the more and more
exposure they have with TV and computers, the less and less human
interaction they will have, like in the case of the mom with her 12 yr
old...
I know that most of this group will disagree with these points, and maybe
perhaps in years I might share your point of view, but as for right now,
this is how I feel and I don't see allowing endless viewing in the near
future. I believe that although they are individuals, they are young and
need guidance. Even a lion or tiger teaches the cub to hunt, and watches
closely their whereabouts...
Haydee
On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 8:56 AM, Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...>wrote:
> **
>
>
>
> On Jun 20, 2012, at 8:49 AM, haydee deldenovese wrote:
>
> > Both my husband and I are now open to letting the kids watch a little TV
>
> It will be helpful for unschooling to, rather than loosening the
> restrictions, to just say yes more.
>
> Think about if your husband disagreed with say, how much water you should
> drink in a day. And when you reached 5 glasses he said "No more." The most
> relationship undermining part is that he's watching and counting. It's
> really kind of creepy and it would make me want to drink out of sight. Then
> he's saying he doesn't care what you want, that his agenda for you is more
> important.
>
> *Why* a child might watch 6-8 hours of TV is far more important than the
> number of hours.
>
> If there were restrictions before and they enjoy visual story telling
> medium, their buckets have been empty for a long time. They'll want to
> revel in it until they feel there will always be as much as they want
> whenever they want.
>
> People tend to hoard water if they fear they will run out. If they can get
> as much water as they want whenever they want, there's no need to hoard.
>
> This stage won't last forever. It will depend on how much they love this
> kind of story telling (how much they're visual and auditory learners for
> example). It will depend on how much they trust that TV won't be restricted
> again. If you have shown them a pattern of restricting, removing,
> restricting again, it will take them longer to trust.
>
> If they're tweens, they often do go through a transition period where TV
> and video games are exactly what their brains need. During those years
> their TV watching and video game playing often goes up. And when they hit
> their teens, their interests expand.
>
> If they're using TV as downtime or escape -- as school kids do -- well,
> that's one of the reasons to unschool! We can shape their environment so
> they don't need to escape.
>
> If they're using it for recovery from a difficult time (like school),
> think of it as like a broken leg. The leg needs that rest period in order
> to heal.
>
> If they're watching TV because the rest of the options aren't interesting
> *from their point of view* then it's up to the parents to be more
> connected, to get to know their kids and what they like better, to offer
> more intriguing, more connecting (to the parents, to interests) options.
> It's up to the parents to *be* more interesting.
>
>
> > (we still agree that 6-8 hours of television isnt healthy for a child)
>
> What isn't healthy for anyone
>
> Offer them more choices that *they* find intriguing *in addition* to TV
> rather than instead of it. Don't try to pull them from TV. Add more to
> their life so they have more choices.
>
>
> > and
> > even pehaps allow my 7yr old to spend some time in the computer to look
> up
> > things that she may like if she is interested.
>
> "And perhaps allow my 7 yo to spend some time in the library to look up
> things that she may like if she's interested."
>
> If you're worried about what she will see, be with her and explore with
> her. Be her partner. Be intrigued. Be her resource to draw on so she can
> make informed choices about how far outside her comfort zone she wants to
> go. Be someone she can share what she discovers with.
>
> Joyce
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jun 21, 2012, at 6:19 PM, haydee deldenovese wrote:
One step at a time.
I'm not saying I'm insulted. I'm saying does that make sense? Do you think those of us who have been helping people unschool for over 20 years, suggesting supporting kids in exploring what interests them, including TV programs, that we've been focused on the philosophy without seeing what damage it's doing to kids?
If that doesn't make sense, is it possible the studies are wrong? That the "researchers" are fearful of TV and are filtering out information that doesn't fit with what they believe?
I think it's helpful to see ratings as indications of what might not interest a child rather than what will harm a child.
What unschoolers find more helpful in making suggestions for their kids is getting to know them, getting to know what they like and don't like and using that as their guide
If a theory doesn't fit what actually happens, then the theory needs re-examined.
It demystifies alcohol by letting kids try when they ask. By the time they're 21 alcohol is not some big reward that they've won.
My daughter decided she'd come back home for her 21st birthday. I suggested we go to a local winery for wine tasting. She thought that sounded like a great idea. How many kids would choose to spend their 21st birthday that way? How many will be getting drunk with their friends?
Little kids generally don't like alcohol. My aunt would serve my sister and I wine and some strong alcoholic drinks at Sunday dinner. I rarely finished one. I didn't like the feeling. The taste was interesting but I preferred Coke and juice.
My daughter felt more free to ask if she could have some wine, not just when I offered, but she, too, would far more often drink nonalcoholic drinks even though she *could* have had wine any time she wanted.
If a child did ask for more than it seemed wise, I'd share that his body was too small to handle more than a little bit of alcohol.
Speeding trucks are an imminent danger if a person stands in front of them.
But people and kids *do* spend all day on the computer. If you tell a child that if they spend more than x hours on the computer that it's unhealthy and then they do and don't get sick, then you've lost credibility. If they do it again and again, they're going to think you don't know what you're talking about. And it weakens their trust in any other advice you give.
Where people get hung up on the idea of helping kids explore what interests them is they picture it as turning control over to the child. And they picture the child making nothing but poor, uninformed choices with the parent helplessly watching unable to do anything because some philosophy says they can't. That isn't the picture at all. Unschooling is about becoming a child's partner.
If you're only reading this thread, it would help to read the "Family Guy" thread too. There's some good discussion of TV in it.
Does that make sense? Or does it make more sense that the researchers aren't seeing as clearly as they want you to believe?
No, not true. I've been on computers for several hours a day since 1984, I believe. No carpal tunnel. No vision problems.
Yes, of course, people who push themselves beyond their limits, who choose to ignore the signals their bodies are giving them that they're hurting, end up with problems. Are unschooled kids having those problems? Or do their parents help them with strategies to take breaks if their kids complain about a pain?
But to the person it's being done to, it doesn't feel like love. it *feels* like "I don't trust you. You're too weak and the world is too powerful." It's not a very useful strategy for someone to grow up with. Many kids who hear that end up believing it well into adulthood.
Before you jump on that, the opposite message -- that they're strong enough to handle the world -- isn't any better.
What unschoolers do is be their child's partner. We explore with them, lending them our power and our greater understanding of the world. Rather than imposing our wisdom on them, we use it to help them explore the world in safe, respectful, doable ways.
Every child is different. Theories should be based on a great deal of data, not just one instance.
What I suspect is that your daughter's imaginary characters weren't meeting her needs, that they couldn't support the stories your daughter wanted them to tell. The Disney characters gave her much richer material to work with. She had come up with the equivalent of sticks and stones to build with. What she got from Disney was Legos.
*No* great artist grows in a vacuum. Great artists are immersed not just in the natural world and the world of their own minds but in the art of other artists. Writers are advised to read, read, read. Artists need to see, see, see (and do a lot of copying too).
It's selfish to put what you love -- seeing her imaginary creatures -- above what your daughter loved -- building stories with someone else's imaginary creatures.
Using someone else's characters to tell stories is like coloring books. My mother in law once said she didn't think coloring books were good for kids. She only let her kids have blank paper. My sister and I grew up with coloring books and blank paper. None of her kids are artists. By my sister and I are artistic. Coloring books remove the necessity of focusing on forms and lets someone focus on color combinations.
(My daughter had coloring books but much preferred blank paper. She's also artistic. (As well as a writer and a musician.) The important thing is she had a rich environment and was given the freedom to find what was right for her.)
I'm so glad my daughter discovered Pokemon. They brought her great joy. They also fueled her imagination. Her first comic book that went on for hundreds of pages was inspired by Pokemon then took off in it's own direction. Her first, second and third novels (written for National Novel Writing Month) were based on characters that were a couple of inspired generations removed from Pokemon.
The desire to create isn't so fragile. It takes dedicated effort to discourage! And definitely isn't crushed by seeing the creations of others. Art and creativity is fueled by the creations of others.
It's respectful to support children in finding what is right for them rather than imposing supposedly universal right ways on them.
How many of them spend 12-18 years in school being told to sit down, shut up and do what the teachers and parents believe is best for them?
If TV were the cause, then unschooled kids would show even worse effects.
But unschooled kids have the freedom to watch TV and the support to do plenty of other things and they don't show the effects. What's missing from their lives is forced education and conventional parenting practices.
Joyce
> but I just cant do it all over night. I haveIt's a very good idea *not* to do it all over night. It would cause chaos and confusion.
> been parenting the same way for 7 years now, and it isn't easy to just let
> go of it all at once.
One step at a time.
> Although I still have a long way to go toIt's hard to keep taking steps in a particular direction if you don't have a clear vision of where you want to be.
> reach your level or Sandra's or many of the other great unschooling moms
> I also don't want to engage their frontal lobe too much at their ageWhat does that mean? What does that effect look like in children?
> there have been many studies done on thisOnce you step away from studies and look instead directly at children who are living supported lives with engaged parents, then the studies don't even make sense. They don't match what actually happens.
> the last thing I want to do is to damageWhich is saying that we don't care if we damage our kids' brains.
> their perfect little brains with the quick changes of the television
I'm not saying I'm insulted. I'm saying does that make sense? Do you think those of us who have been helping people unschool for over 20 years, suggesting supporting kids in exploring what interests them, including TV programs, that we've been focused on the philosophy without seeing what damage it's doing to kids?
If that doesn't make sense, is it possible the studies are wrong? That the "researchers" are fearful of TV and are filtering out information that doesn't fit with what they believe?
> they really don't know what is outThat's true of even kids who've been unschooling all their lives. The parent's role is to get to know what her children like and don't like to help them find more of what they like and help them avoid what they don't like. Rather than picking for them, you're weeding through, narrowing down the choices to a manageable number to choose from. You're basing the choices on what you believe the child would want to choose if they had the powers to sift through all the possibilities themselves.
> there, there for they don't really know what they want to watch, so I would
> still be choosing for them what to watch.
> I also don't think that if my 7yrThey have ratings in order to give people some idea of what's in the movie. It's information.
> old decided she wants to watch a show for teens I should let her, I mean
> that is why they have ratings, no?
I think it's helpful to see ratings as indications of what might not interest a child rather than what will harm a child.
What unschoolers find more helpful in making suggestions for their kids is getting to know them, getting to know what they like and don't like and using that as their guide
> letting a child be on the computer, all dayAnd yet unschooling kids who do periodically get engrossed by games and play all day, do grow up healthy.
> (because he/she wants to) I don't think can be healthy.
If a theory doesn't fit what actually happens, then the theory needs re-examined.
> Your 5 year old sees you or your husband having aYes. I allowed my daughter to try wine and beer. My parents did that for me too.
> beer, and he decides he wants to try it, would you say yes?
It demystifies alcohol by letting kids try when they ask. By the time they're 21 alcohol is not some big reward that they've won.
My daughter decided she'd come back home for her 21st birthday. I suggested we go to a local winery for wine tasting. She thought that sounded like a great idea. How many kids would choose to spend their 21st birthday that way? How many will be getting drunk with their friends?
> and he likes it and would like to have one for himself, would you give itDo you have a 5 yo who has asked for a whole beer? The problem with straw men is that they sound possible, but that doesn't mean it will actually happen. That's why we discuss real issues rather than imagined issues.
> to him?
Little kids generally don't like alcohol. My aunt would serve my sister and I wine and some strong alcoholic drinks at Sunday dinner. I rarely finished one. I didn't like the feeling. The taste was interesting but I preferred Coke and juice.
My daughter felt more free to ask if she could have some wine, not just when I offered, but she, too, would far more often drink nonalcoholic drinks even though she *could* have had wine any time she wanted.
If a child did ask for more than it seemed wise, I'd share that his body was too small to handle more than a little bit of alcohol.
> Same as if your child said, I feel invincible and I feel that I can walk inHave you ever seen a child flattened by a computer, even after playing all day long? Are computers imminently dangerous like speeding trucks? Are all the unschooling advocates on this list caring more about their philosophy than their kids?
> front of a moving truck and not get hurt, would you encourage him to?
Speeding trucks are an imminent danger if a person stands in front of them.
But people and kids *do* spend all day on the computer. If you tell a child that if they spend more than x hours on the computer that it's unhealthy and then they do and don't get sick, then you've lost credibility. If they do it again and again, they're going to think you don't know what you're talking about. And it weakens their trust in any other advice you give.
Where people get hung up on the idea of helping kids explore what interests them is they picture it as turning control over to the child. And they picture the child making nothing but poor, uninformed choices with the parent helplessly watching unable to do anything because some philosophy says they can't. That isn't the picture at all. Unschooling is about becoming a child's partner.
If you're only reading this thread, it would help to read the "Family Guy" thread too. There's some good discussion of TV in it.
> The thing with the computer, isThink about that for a moment. We're living with our kids. We're with them all day long and yet you're telling us we need researchers to tell us things about our kids that are right in front of us that we aren't noticing.
> that there have been many researches done on that as well
Does that make sense? Or does it make more sense that the researchers aren't seeing as clearly as they want you to believe?
> people thatAnd, yes, all our kids are crippled by carpal tunnel and bad vision.
> (work) or spend too much time in front of the computer begin to develop eye
> problems, carpal tunnel syndrome,
No, not true. I've been on computers for several hours a day since 1984, I believe. No carpal tunnel. No vision problems.
Yes, of course, people who push themselves beyond their limits, who choose to ignore the signals their bodies are giving them that they're hurting, end up with problems. Are unschooled kids having those problems? Or do their parents help them with strategies to take breaks if their kids complain about a pain?
> If I can guide them to appropriate shows inThat always sounds so loving.
> television, and hold their hand through the growing process, then I am
> doing my job as a mother
But to the person it's being done to, it doesn't feel like love. it *feels* like "I don't trust you. You're too weak and the world is too powerful." It's not a very useful strategy for someone to grow up with. Many kids who hear that end up believing it well into adulthood.
Before you jump on that, the opposite message -- that they're strong enough to handle the world -- isn't any better.
What unschoolers do is be their child's partner. We explore with them, lending them our power and our greater understanding of the world. Rather than imposing our wisdom on them, we use it to help them explore the world in safe, respectful, doable ways.
> My daughter's imaginary friends had disappeared, now they were replaced byAnd yet my daughter held onto her imaginary characters plus added some from TV. And at 20 she's still telling stories with made up characters, occasionally mixing in real characters.
> Disney characters, she no longer used of her imagination to create the
> people she wanted.
Every child is different. Theories should be based on a great deal of data, not just one instance.
What I suspect is that your daughter's imaginary characters weren't meeting her needs, that they couldn't support the stories your daughter wanted them to tell. The Disney characters gave her much richer material to work with. She had come up with the equivalent of sticks and stones to build with. What she got from Disney was Legos.
*No* great artist grows in a vacuum. Great artists are immersed not just in the natural world and the world of their own minds but in the art of other artists. Writers are advised to read, read, read. Artists need to see, see, see (and do a lot of copying too).
It's selfish to put what you love -- seeing her imaginary creatures -- above what your daughter loved -- building stories with someone else's imaginary creatures.
Using someone else's characters to tell stories is like coloring books. My mother in law once said she didn't think coloring books were good for kids. She only let her kids have blank paper. My sister and I grew up with coloring books and blank paper. None of her kids are artists. By my sister and I are artistic. Coloring books remove the necessity of focusing on forms and lets someone focus on color combinations.
(My daughter had coloring books but much preferred blank paper. She's also artistic. (As well as a writer and a musician.) The important thing is she had a rich environment and was given the freedom to find what was right for her.)
> Instead, they were created for her... do you see myThat's a very sad view of what was bringing delight to your daughter.
> point? the mind became lazy. Now, she did not entertain herself, but needed
> to be entertained
I'm so glad my daughter discovered Pokemon. They brought her great joy. They also fueled her imagination. Her first comic book that went on for hundreds of pages was inspired by Pokemon then took off in it's own direction. Her first, second and third novels (written for National Novel Writing Month) were based on characters that were a couple of inspired generations removed from Pokemon.
The desire to create isn't so fragile. It takes dedicated effort to discourage! And definitely isn't crushed by seeing the creations of others. Art and creativity is fueled by the creations of others.
> My niece needs the TV on, while she plays aIt isn't caused by TV or most unschooled kids would be like that. Some are. Some are. The ones who are often have parents who are like that. It's how her brain is wired. It could be she needs something to tune out in order to pay attention. That's not a defect. It's not something that can be corrected by making her turn of the TV. It's who she is. It's good her mother is honoring that, allowing her to find what is right for her, rather than trying to turn her into some ideal image of a child.
> board game, just to have noise on the background
It's respectful to support children in finding what is right for them rather than imposing supposedly universal right ways on them.
> one of the biggest problems in society today is thatAnd how many of them are unschooled?
> humans don't know how to be alone, everyone needs something outside the
> self to entertain them
How many of them spend 12-18 years in school being told to sit down, shut up and do what the teachers and parents believe is best for them?
If TV were the cause, then unschooled kids would show even worse effects.
But unschooled kids have the freedom to watch TV and the support to do plenty of other things and they don't show the effects. What's missing from their lives is forced education and conventional parenting practices.
> I don't see allowing endless viewing in the nearAnd I hope you don't. I don't know any unschooled kids who view endlessly. I do know some, including my daughter, who watched or played a lot for a period of time, but then they moved on.
> future
Joyce
Pam Sorooshian
On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 8:00 PM, Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...>wrote:
schools, mostly. It is true that when school kids play around on their
computers, it displaces time spent on schoolwork. That is because
schoolwork is boring. Their solution is to restrict computers, not make the
schoolwork more interesting and useful. Sad.
Read the actual research. It isn't very good. It is nearly impossible to do
good quality research on the effect of computer use on children - there are
WAY too many variables to control for all of them. Clinical studies don't
translate well into real-life in-home situations. The rest of the research
is survey data and, first, depends on parents to accurately report
information and, second, it looks for correlation, but causation is often
assumed, not proven.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > The thing with the computer, isYou're assuming that, I think, from the anti-computer propaganda put out by
> > that there have been many researches done on that as well
>
schools, mostly. It is true that when school kids play around on their
computers, it displaces time spent on schoolwork. That is because
schoolwork is boring. Their solution is to restrict computers, not make the
schoolwork more interesting and useful. Sad.
Read the actual research. It isn't very good. It is nearly impossible to do
good quality research on the effect of computer use on children - there are
WAY too many variables to control for all of them. Clinical studies don't
translate well into real-life in-home situations. The rest of the research
is survey data and, first, depends on parents to accurately report
information and, second, it looks for correlation, but causation is often
assumed, not proven.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
jo kirby
*And yet my daughter held onto her imaginary characters plus added some from TV*
The same with my son. And he started telling his own stories about the characters, and somehow they seemed to become 'his'.
*No* great artist grows in a vacuum. Great artists are immersed not just in the natural world and the world of their own minds but in the art of other artists. Writers are advised to read, read, read. Artists need to see, see, see (and do a lot of copying too).*
I have been noticing for a long time that almost every time my son (now 5.5) watches something character or story based, he goes straight off to make up his own stories, or to add new information to current stories that he is playing with a lot. He does the same with books. He seems to love telling stories, and other people's stories seem to inspire him.
*do you see my point? the mind became lazy.*
There is no way his mind gets lazy from it, quite the opposite!
*she no longer used of her imagination to create the
When I was at art school many years ago, we were asked to make transcriptions of famous paintings we liked. That means making a copy, as close as we could, without being told how to do it. Wow the learning in that!
I wonder whether often the fear people have about letting their children watch as much TV as they want is that they will immediately and from thereon choose to do nothing else, for ever. Perhaps they will watch a lot to begin with, perhaps for always, and then go on to a career in film and TV for instance ;-), Or perhaps they will watch a lot and then not a lot, or not a lot at all....
For me this fear leaves when we trust that our children have inquiring minds, and a huge imaginations. That their minds are not vacuums waiting to be filled, but enormous vessels for collection of ideas, discovery and growth. The world can be their oyster, if we help them (especially when they're little). If they are living in a safe, loving environment, we can trust that they will Grow from what they encounter, not shrink.
Jo
________________________________
From: Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, 22 June 2012, 4:00
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] How do I find the middle ground?
The same with my son. And he started telling his own stories about the characters, and somehow they seemed to become 'his'.
*No* great artist grows in a vacuum. Great artists are immersed not just in the natural world and the world of their own minds but in the art of other artists. Writers are advised to read, read, read. Artists need to see, see, see (and do a lot of copying too).*
I have been noticing for a long time that almost every time my son (now 5.5) watches something character or story based, he goes straight off to make up his own stories, or to add new information to current stories that he is playing with a lot. He does the same with books. He seems to love telling stories, and other people's stories seem to inspire him.
*do you see my point? the mind became lazy.*
There is no way his mind gets lazy from it, quite the opposite!
*she no longer used of her imagination to create the
> people she wanted.*Can you see how this could actually be insulting to your daughter? She was doing exactly what was right for her, exactly what her imagination wanted to do, and you're denying her reality and implying she is now lacking in imagination. Re-creation is a form of creation, and a very helpful form for learning and growing one's own ideas. Every time she re-creates characters from Disney or wherever, she Is exploring Her Own imagination, and what she can do with those characters.
When I was at art school many years ago, we were asked to make transcriptions of famous paintings we liked. That means making a copy, as close as we could, without being told how to do it. Wow the learning in that!
I wonder whether often the fear people have about letting their children watch as much TV as they want is that they will immediately and from thereon choose to do nothing else, for ever. Perhaps they will watch a lot to begin with, perhaps for always, and then go on to a career in film and TV for instance ;-), Or perhaps they will watch a lot and then not a lot, or not a lot at all....
For me this fear leaves when we trust that our children have inquiring minds, and a huge imaginations. That their minds are not vacuums waiting to be filled, but enormous vessels for collection of ideas, discovery and growth. The world can be their oyster, if we help them (especially when they're little). If they are living in a safe, loving environment, we can trust that they will Grow from what they encounter, not shrink.
Jo
________________________________
From: Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, 22 June 2012, 4:00
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] How do I find the middle ground?
On Jun 21, 2012, at 6:19 PM, haydee deldenovese wrote:
> but I just cant do it all over night. I have
> been parenting the same way for 7 years now, and it isn't easy to just let
> go of it all at once.
It's a very good idea *not* to do it all over night. It would cause chaos and confusion.
One step at a time.
> Although I still have a long way to go to
> reach your level or Sandra's or many of the other great unschooling moms
It's hard to keep taking steps in a particular direction if you don't have a clear vision of where you want to be.
> I also don't want to engage their frontal lobe too much at their age
What does that mean? What does that effect look like in children?
> there have been many studies done on this
Once you step away from studies and look instead directly at children who are living supported lives with engaged parents, then the studies don't even make sense. They don't match what actually happens.
> the last thing I want to do is to damage
> their perfect little brains with the quick changes of the television
Which is saying that we don't care if we damage our kids' brains.
I'm not saying I'm insulted. I'm saying does that make sense? Do you think those of us who have been helping people unschool for over 20 years, suggesting supporting kids in exploring what interests them, including TV programs, that we've been focused on the philosophy without seeing what damage it's doing to kids?
If that doesn't make sense, is it possible the studies are wrong? That the "researchers" are fearful of TV and are filtering out information that doesn't fit with what they believe?
> they really don't know what is out
> there, there for they don't really know what they want to watch, so I would
> still be choosing for them what to watch.
That's true of even kids who've been unschooling all their lives. The parent's role is to get to know what her children like and don't like to help them find more of what they like and help them avoid what they don't like. Rather than picking for them, you're weeding through, narrowing down the choices to a manageable number to choose from. You're basing the choices on what you believe the child would want to choose if they had the powers to sift through all the possibilities themselves.
> I also don't think that if my 7yr
> old decided she wants to watch a show for teens I should let her, I mean
> that is why they have ratings, no?
They have ratings in order to give people some idea of what's in the movie. It's information.
I think it's helpful to see ratings as indications of what might not interest a child rather than what will harm a child.
What unschoolers find more helpful in making suggestions for their kids is getting to know them, getting to know what they like and don't like and using that as their guide
> letting a child be on the computer, all day
> (because he/she wants to) I don't think can be healthy.
And yet unschooling kids who do periodically get engrossed by games and play all day, do grow up healthy.
If a theory doesn't fit what actually happens, then the theory needs re-examined.
> Your 5 year old sees you or your husband having a
> beer, and he decides he wants to try it, would you say yes?
Yes. I allowed my daughter to try wine and beer. My parents did that for me too.
It demystifies alcohol by letting kids try when they ask. By the time they're 21 alcohol is not some big reward that they've won.
My daughter decided she'd come back home for her 21st birthday. I suggested we go to a local winery for wine tasting. She thought that sounded like a great idea. How many kids would choose to spend their 21st birthday that way? How many will be getting drunk with their friends?
> and he likes it and would like to have one for himself, would you give it
> to him?
Do you have a 5 yo who has asked for a whole beer? The problem with straw men is that they sound possible, but that doesn't mean it will actually happen. That's why we discuss real issues rather than imagined issues.
Little kids generally don't like alcohol. My aunt would serve my sister and I wine and some strong alcoholic drinks at Sunday dinner. I rarely finished one. I didn't like the feeling. The taste was interesting but I preferred Coke and juice.
My daughter felt more free to ask if she could have some wine, not just when I offered, but she, too, would far more often drink nonalcoholic drinks even though she *could* have had wine any time she wanted.
If a child did ask for more than it seemed wise, I'd share that his body was too small to handle more than a little bit of alcohol.
> Same as if your child said, I feel invincible and I feel that I can walk in
> front of a moving truck and not get hurt, would you encourage him to?
Have you ever seen a child flattened by a computer, even after playing all day long? Are computers imminently dangerous like speeding trucks? Are all the unschooling advocates on this list caring more about their philosophy than their kids?
Speeding trucks are an imminent danger if a person stands in front of them.
But people and kids *do* spend all day on the computer. If you tell a child that if they spend more than x hours on the computer that it's unhealthy and then they do and don't get sick, then you've lost credibility. If they do it again and again, they're going to think you don't know what you're talking about. And it weakens their trust in any other advice you give.
Where people get hung up on the idea of helping kids explore what interests them is they picture it as turning control over to the child. And they picture the child making nothing but poor, uninformed choices with the parent helplessly watching unable to do anything because some philosophy says they can't. That isn't the picture at all. Unschooling is about becoming a child's partner.
If you're only reading this thread, it would help to read the "Family Guy" thread too. There's some good discussion of TV in it.
> The thing with the computer, is
> that there have been many researches done on that as well
Think about that for a moment. We're living with our kids. We're with them all day long and yet you're telling us we need researchers to tell us things about our kids that are right in front of us that we aren't noticing.
Does that make sense? Or does it make more sense that the researchers aren't seeing as clearly as they want you to believe?
> people that
> (work) or spend too much time in front of the computer begin to develop eye
> problems, carpal tunnel syndrome,
And, yes, all our kids are crippled by carpal tunnel and bad vision.
No, not true. I've been on computers for several hours a day since 1984, I believe. No carpal tunnel. No vision problems.
Yes, of course, people who push themselves beyond their limits, who choose to ignore the signals their bodies are giving them that they're hurting, end up with problems. Are unschooled kids having those problems? Or do their parents help them with strategies to take breaks if their kids complain about a pain?
> If I can guide them to appropriate shows in
> television, and hold their hand through the growing process, then I am
> doing my job as a mother
That always sounds so loving.
But to the person it's being done to, it doesn't feel like love. it *feels* like "I don't trust you. You're too weak and the world is too powerful." It's not a very useful strategy for someone to grow up with. Many kids who hear that end up believing it well into adulthood.
Before you jump on that, the opposite message -- that they're strong enough to handle the world -- isn't any better.
What unschoolers do is be their child's partner. We explore with them, lending them our power and our greater understanding of the world. Rather than imposing our wisdom on them, we use it to help them explore the world in safe, respectful, doable ways.
> My daughter's imaginary friends had disappeared, now they were replaced by
> Disney characters, she no longer used of her imagination to create the
> people she wanted.
And yet my daughter held onto her imaginary characters plus added some from TV. And at 20 she's still telling stories with made up characters, occasionally mixing in real characters.
Every child is different. Theories should be based on a great deal of data, not just one instance.
What I suspect is that your daughter's imaginary characters weren't meeting her needs, that they couldn't support the stories your daughter wanted them to tell. The Disney characters gave her much richer material to work with. She had come up with the equivalent of sticks and stones to build with. What she got from Disney was Legos.
*No* great artist grows in a vacuum. Great artists are immersed not just in the natural world and the world of their own minds but in the art of other artists. Writers are advised to read, read, read. Artists need to see, see, see (and do a lot of copying too).
It's selfish to put what you love -- seeing her imaginary creatures -- above what your daughter loved -- building stories with someone else's imaginary creatures.
Using someone else's characters to tell stories is like coloring books. My mother in law once said she didn't think coloring books were good for kids. She only let her kids have blank paper. My sister and I grew up with coloring books and blank paper. None of her kids are artists. By my sister and I are artistic. Coloring books remove the necessity of focusing on forms and lets someone focus on color combinations.
(My daughter had coloring books but much preferred blank paper. She's also artistic. (As well as a writer and a musician.) The important thing is she had a rich environment and was given the freedom to find what was right for her.)
> Instead, they were created for her... do you see my
> point? the mind became lazy. Now, she did not entertain herself, but needed
> to be entertained
That's a very sad view of what was bringing delight to your daughter.
I'm so glad my daughter discovered Pokemon. They brought her great joy. They also fueled her imagination. Her first comic book that went on for hundreds of pages was inspired by Pokemon then took off in it's own direction. Her first, second and third novels (written for National Novel Writing Month) were based on characters that were a couple of inspired generations removed from Pokemon.
The desire to create isn't so fragile. It takes dedicated effort to discourage! And definitely isn't crushed by seeing the creations of others. Art and creativity is fueled by the creations of others.
> My niece needs the TV on, while she plays a
> board game, just to have noise on the background
It isn't caused by TV or most unschooled kids would be like that. Some are. Some are. The ones who are often have parents who are like that. It's how her brain is wired. It could be she needs something to tune out in order to pay attention. That's not a defect. It's not something that can be corrected by making her turn of the TV. It's who she is. It's good her mother is honoring that, allowing her to find what is right for her, rather than trying to turn her into some ideal image of a child.
It's respectful to support children in finding what is right for them rather than imposing supposedly universal right ways on them.
> one of the biggest problems in society today is that
> humans don't know how to be alone, everyone needs something outside the
> self to entertain them
And how many of them are unschooled?
How many of them spend 12-18 years in school being told to sit down, shut up and do what the teachers and parents believe is best for them?
If TV were the cause, then unschooled kids would show even worse effects.
But unschooled kids have the freedom to watch TV and the support to do plenty of other things and they don't show the effects. What's missing from their lives is forced education and conventional parenting practices.
> I don't see allowing endless viewing in the near
> future
And I hope you don't. I don't know any unschooled kids who view endlessly. I do know some, including my daughter, who watched or played a lot for a period of time, but then they moved on.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I get what you are telling me, but I just cant do it all over night. I have
been parenting the same way for 7 years now, and it isn't easy to just let
go of it all at once.-=-
Are you here for us to make you feel better?
If so, there's this:
http://sandradodd.com/support
No one is asking you to let go of it all at once.
http://sandradodd.com/gradualchange
-=-I come from a very restricted family, and as we all
know we do what we were taught...-=-
WHOA!!! STOP right there.
DO "we all" know that? DO "we all" do that?
Or would it make you feel better to imagine that all people know and do what you feel you know and do?
The phrase was a rhetorical foul, though, in a discussion of ideas.
Don't tell us what "we all know" or what we all do.
Think about the principles and ideas and how you can see more clearly what you are doing, and why.
-=- I come from a very restricted family, and as we all
know we do what we were taught, so I am in the process of watching my self
and catching my self every day. My mom used to tell us ALWAYS that she had
a headache every time we asked her to play with us, and years ago, I caught
myself saying that to my daughter when it wasn't true. That was the turning
point for me, when I realized I was becoming my mother and I did not want
to, so I began to make changes.-=-
Turning points and realizations are good.
Change is only good if it's going in a better direction.
The paragraph I am slicing up and laying out for light to shine upon began with "I get what you are telling me,..."
and more specifically, "I get what you are telling me, but..."
"Yeah but" is "no", right? :-)
If you're going to build a defensive fortress of ideas and words, why put it out here in the discussion? (Serious question for you to consider, but not for you to answer in public.)
"I get what you are telling me" is a school answer. To "get" something well enough to recite it back for a quiz on Friday is not NEARLY the same as "getting" it when recitation is worthless. I might "get" what swimming teachers told me, but I still can't swim.
http://sandradodd.com/gettingit
There are some tales of people getting it.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
been parenting the same way for 7 years now, and it isn't easy to just let
go of it all at once.-=-
Are you here for us to make you feel better?
If so, there's this:
http://sandradodd.com/support
No one is asking you to let go of it all at once.
http://sandradodd.com/gradualchange
-=-I come from a very restricted family, and as we all
know we do what we were taught...-=-
WHOA!!! STOP right there.
DO "we all" know that? DO "we all" do that?
Or would it make you feel better to imagine that all people know and do what you feel you know and do?
The phrase was a rhetorical foul, though, in a discussion of ideas.
Don't tell us what "we all know" or what we all do.
Think about the principles and ideas and how you can see more clearly what you are doing, and why.
-=- I come from a very restricted family, and as we all
know we do what we were taught, so I am in the process of watching my self
and catching my self every day. My mom used to tell us ALWAYS that she had
a headache every time we asked her to play with us, and years ago, I caught
myself saying that to my daughter when it wasn't true. That was the turning
point for me, when I realized I was becoming my mother and I did not want
to, so I began to make changes.-=-
Turning points and realizations are good.
Change is only good if it's going in a better direction.
The paragraph I am slicing up and laying out for light to shine upon began with "I get what you are telling me,..."
and more specifically, "I get what you are telling me, but..."
"Yeah but" is "no", right? :-)
If you're going to build a defensive fortress of ideas and words, why put it out here in the discussion? (Serious question for you to consider, but not for you to answer in public.)
"I get what you are telling me" is a school answer. To "get" something well enough to recite it back for a quiz on Friday is not NEARLY the same as "getting" it when recitation is worthless. I might "get" what swimming teachers told me, but I still can't swim.
http://sandradodd.com/gettingit
There are some tales of people getting it.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
***I also don't want to engage their frontal lobe too much at their age(mainly my son who is 4) there have been many studies done on this, and a lot of it makes sense to me, and the last thing I want to do is to damage their perfect little brains with the quick changes of the television.***
Are you insinuating that those of us who have allowed their children to watch TV from the time they were babies, have damaged their brains? I have an 18 yr old who has watched TV since she was very very young and she isn't brain damaged at all. And seriously, tennis matches can be faster paced than a lot of children's television. Same with flip books or zoetropes, both of which have been around since long before I was even born.
***I am open to movies and on demand, anything that has no commercials and that doesn't change frame to frame in milliseconds.***
So, to be clear, it isn't really the quick changes after all, but commercials? Which is it that you think might cause brain damage to young minds?
***The thing also is that because I have not let them watch much, they really don't know what is out there, there for they don't really know what they want to watch, so I would still be choosing for them what to watch. I also don't think that if my 7yr old decided she wants to watch a show for teens I should let her, I mean that is why they have ratings, no?***
Who is "they"? It's an honest question. There are loads of shows geared towards teens that are perfectly fine for younger kids to watch. It really is dependent on the individual child and what they are enjoying. If you are going about life living by what "they" say, it's one too many people having a say in your child's life.
***I allowed her to watch as much as she wanted, so she could familiarize herself with the Disney characters, and whatever she wanted to see on TV. This went for 2years, and during those 2 years I felt terrible, because you know what??? My daughter's imaginary friends had disappeared, now they were replaced by Disney characters, she no longer used of her imagination to create the people she wanted. Instead, they were created for her... do you see my point? the mind became lazy.***
So, wait, are you actually trying to say that Disney characters are real? They came from someone's imagination, brought to life, like magic on a screen. So, instead of using the imaginary friends she made, she decided to play with someone else's imaginary friends. And this is bad why? I don't believe for a moment that her mind became lazy. She ADDED to what she already knew and made bigger stories that likely got added and mixed into some of her own. THAT is how learning works RIGHT THERE! Learning doesn't happen in a bubble of one's own mind, it takes the world around that person. If she were in school, she would be adding things the teacher told her about and she would be adding things other kids showed her.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Are you insinuating that those of us who have allowed their children to watch TV from the time they were babies, have damaged their brains? I have an 18 yr old who has watched TV since she was very very young and she isn't brain damaged at all. And seriously, tennis matches can be faster paced than a lot of children's television. Same with flip books or zoetropes, both of which have been around since long before I was even born.
***I am open to movies and on demand, anything that has no commercials and that doesn't change frame to frame in milliseconds.***
So, to be clear, it isn't really the quick changes after all, but commercials? Which is it that you think might cause brain damage to young minds?
***The thing also is that because I have not let them watch much, they really don't know what is out there, there for they don't really know what they want to watch, so I would still be choosing for them what to watch. I also don't think that if my 7yr old decided she wants to watch a show for teens I should let her, I mean that is why they have ratings, no?***
Who is "they"? It's an honest question. There are loads of shows geared towards teens that are perfectly fine for younger kids to watch. It really is dependent on the individual child and what they are enjoying. If you are going about life living by what "they" say, it's one too many people having a say in your child's life.
***I allowed her to watch as much as she wanted, so she could familiarize herself with the Disney characters, and whatever she wanted to see on TV. This went for 2years, and during those 2 years I felt terrible, because you know what??? My daughter's imaginary friends had disappeared, now they were replaced by Disney characters, she no longer used of her imagination to create the people she wanted. Instead, they were created for her... do you see my point? the mind became lazy.***
So, wait, are you actually trying to say that Disney characters are real? They came from someone's imagination, brought to life, like magic on a screen. So, instead of using the imaginary friends she made, she decided to play with someone else's imaginary friends. And this is bad why? I don't believe for a moment that her mind became lazy. She ADDED to what she already knew and made bigger stories that likely got added and mixed into some of her own. THAT is how learning works RIGHT THERE! Learning doesn't happen in a bubble of one's own mind, it takes the world around that person. If she were in school, she would be adding things the teacher told her about and she would be adding things other kids showed her.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Where people get hung up on the idea of helping kids explore what interests them is they picture it as turning control over to the child. -=-
And that happens when a parent believes someone is or should be or will be "in control."
I controlled the environment, but I didn't control my child's choices.
I made sure there was a comfortable temperature, running water, food, and that there were interesting things to see and do. I made sure the environment was safe and peaceful.
-=-It's selfish to put what you love -- seeing her imaginary creatures -- above what your daughter loved -- building stories with someone else's imaginary creatures.-=-
It's selfish and it's unhealthy, both for the mother and for the child.
http://justaddlightandstir.blogspot.co.uk/2011/03/how-important-is-your-child.html
http://justaddlightandstir.blogspot.co.uk/2012/06/different-eyes.html
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
And that happens when a parent believes someone is or should be or will be "in control."
I controlled the environment, but I didn't control my child's choices.
I made sure there was a comfortable temperature, running water, food, and that there were interesting things to see and do. I made sure the environment was safe and peaceful.
-=-It's selfish to put what you love -- seeing her imaginary creatures -- above what your daughter loved -- building stories with someone else's imaginary creatures.-=-
It's selfish and it's unhealthy, both for the mother and for the child.
http://justaddlightandstir.blogspot.co.uk/2011/03/how-important-is-your-child.html
http://justaddlightandstir.blogspot.co.uk/2012/06/different-eyes.html
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I'm so glad my daughter discovered Pokemon. They brought her great joy. They also fueled her imagination. Her first comic book that went on for hundreds of pages was inspired by Pokemon then took off in it's own direction. Her first, second and third novels (written for National Novel Writing Month) were based on characters that were a couple of inspired generations removed from Pokemon.-=-
Recently my son was asked what led him to do what he does for a living at this point in his life. He said "Pokemon."
I hadn't thought of it that way until he said it, but the trail leads directly and swiftly back from him working at Blizzard Entertainment (he's in his sixth year, and supervises a couple of dozen people, many of whom have college degrees they didn't need for this job) to his volunteering to help with the Pokemon tournaments at a gaming shop when he was 13 years old.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Recently my son was asked what led him to do what he does for a living at this point in his life. He said "Pokemon."
I hadn't thought of it that way until he said it, but the trail leads directly and swiftly back from him working at Blizzard Entertainment (he's in his sixth year, and supervises a couple of dozen people, many of whom have college degrees they didn't need for this job) to his volunteering to help with the Pokemon tournaments at a gaming shop when he was 13 years old.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
***I feel that the more and more exposure they have with TV and computers, the less and less human interaction they will have***
You will find thousands of homeschoolers that would agree with you. There are a LOT of homeschoolers that keep their kids out of school to keep their children's world small and narrowly defined. TV and computers allow for too much access to too many things that those kinds of families don't want for their kids. They WANT their kids to ONLY think and believe as they, the parents, do.
So, you've already defined TV and computers to be too much, so what is next, specific books? Specific toys? No plastic toys, only wooden ones? Corn syrup? Skate boards?
Unschooling should be about expanding the world for our kids, not making it smaller. Instead of feeling as if you need to say "no", find a way to say "yes". Give a happy little gift of saying "yes" and opening up your child's life just that tiny bit more. Yes is expansive, no, shuts a person down. It's the difference between saying "don't run" or "please walk". One time I got to hear Patti Digh speak. In her talk she had every person in the audience partner up with their neighbor and pretend to plan a party. One person had to come up with ideas and the other person had to say "no" to every single idea. The physical sensation of that experience was profound. It was as if the air had left the room, there was no joy or fun. Party planning felt lame and boring. When we finished that exercise, she had us do the same thing and have the other person say "yes". The transformation was immediate. The ideas increased in fun and size and
adventure and excitement. It was expansive! That experience left a huge impact on me.
I WANT my kids to feel that feeling about life, that it's fun and adventurous and exciting. I can't help them with that if I'm constantly gauging whether or not a thing is going to damage them. I can't help them with that if I fear this, that, and the other thing is wrong and bad and dangerous. Fear is just as bad as no and is so often used to make "no" easy to say. I don't want my kids to fear the world. I don't want them to find danger around every corner. I want them to boldly embrace it and find adventure and fun around every corner.
It starts with the little things like saying "yes" to TV.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
You will find thousands of homeschoolers that would agree with you. There are a LOT of homeschoolers that keep their kids out of school to keep their children's world small and narrowly defined. TV and computers allow for too much access to too many things that those kinds of families don't want for their kids. They WANT their kids to ONLY think and believe as they, the parents, do.
So, you've already defined TV and computers to be too much, so what is next, specific books? Specific toys? No plastic toys, only wooden ones? Corn syrup? Skate boards?
Unschooling should be about expanding the world for our kids, not making it smaller. Instead of feeling as if you need to say "no", find a way to say "yes". Give a happy little gift of saying "yes" and opening up your child's life just that tiny bit more. Yes is expansive, no, shuts a person down. It's the difference between saying "don't run" or "please walk". One time I got to hear Patti Digh speak. In her talk she had every person in the audience partner up with their neighbor and pretend to plan a party. One person had to come up with ideas and the other person had to say "no" to every single idea. The physical sensation of that experience was profound. It was as if the air had left the room, there was no joy or fun. Party planning felt lame and boring. When we finished that exercise, she had us do the same thing and have the other person say "yes". The transformation was immediate. The ideas increased in fun and size and
adventure and excitement. It was expansive! That experience left a huge impact on me.
I WANT my kids to feel that feeling about life, that it's fun and adventurous and exciting. I can't help them with that if I'm constantly gauging whether or not a thing is going to damage them. I can't help them with that if I fear this, that, and the other thing is wrong and bad and dangerous. Fear is just as bad as no and is so often used to make "no" easy to say. I don't want my kids to fear the world. I don't want them to find danger around every corner. I want them to boldly embrace it and find adventure and fun around every corner.
It starts with the little things like saying "yes" to TV.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-*she no longer used of her imagination to create the
"Re-creation is a form of creation" made me think of sewing. I had a friend (long dead now) who was born around 1900. She was a teenager in 1917, because there was a photo of her as the queen of something in high school. She made a nightgown for her wedding night. It had pulled-thread work, pleats, gathers, crochet or tatting (I forget which) on the edges (set in by hand between the outside and the facing), and was stitched entirely by hand, every bit. She still had it, in a box, and showed it to me once. I asked another time to see it again. We taught together, when she was about to retire, and I was 21 and new to it. We shared a portable classroom, and the house I was renting was across the fence from her back yard, so we became friends.
My grandmother was a tailor/seamstress and could make men's western dress suits--wool with arrow-slit pockets and trapunto designs. She was embarrassed when I hemmed a skirt with a sewing machine, and said she would never wear anything that wasn't hemmed by hand with a blind stitch.
No doubt there would have been people older than either of those women who might have criticized their inability to weave their own cloth.
There is a contest I've seen once in the final judging at the New Mexico State Fair. It might be a contest that's common to many places. It's called "Sheep to Shawl." The entrants model an article of clothing that they created from the wool of s sheep they own. They have owned and sheared the sheep (or had someone shear it; I don't know if the requirement is to have done one's own shearing) and made yarn, and then woven or knitted cloth... And what I saw was NOT "shawls" but suits and dresses. I presume it had been a while since a simple rectangle of home-created cloth had won "sheep to shawl" and they had escalated.
If a child lives in isolation and poverty, she will create imaginary friends, and use sticks for dolls, and draw pictures in the dirt with her finger.
Would that same child have become lazy if she had real friends, real dolls, paper and some colored pencils?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> people she wanted.*-=-Can you see how this could actually be insulting to your daughter? She was doing exactly what was right for her, exactly what her imagination wanted to do, and you're denying her reality and implying she is now lacking in imagination. Re-creation is a form of creation, and a very helpful form for learning and growing one's own ideas. Every time she re-creates characters from Disney or wherever, she Is exploring Her Own imagination, and what she can do with those characters.-=-
"Re-creation is a form of creation" made me think of sewing. I had a friend (long dead now) who was born around 1900. She was a teenager in 1917, because there was a photo of her as the queen of something in high school. She made a nightgown for her wedding night. It had pulled-thread work, pleats, gathers, crochet or tatting (I forget which) on the edges (set in by hand between the outside and the facing), and was stitched entirely by hand, every bit. She still had it, in a box, and showed it to me once. I asked another time to see it again. We taught together, when she was about to retire, and I was 21 and new to it. We shared a portable classroom, and the house I was renting was across the fence from her back yard, so we became friends.
My grandmother was a tailor/seamstress and could make men's western dress suits--wool with arrow-slit pockets and trapunto designs. She was embarrassed when I hemmed a skirt with a sewing machine, and said she would never wear anything that wasn't hemmed by hand with a blind stitch.
No doubt there would have been people older than either of those women who might have criticized their inability to weave their own cloth.
There is a contest I've seen once in the final judging at the New Mexico State Fair. It might be a contest that's common to many places. It's called "Sheep to Shawl." The entrants model an article of clothing that they created from the wool of s sheep they own. They have owned and sheared the sheep (or had someone shear it; I don't know if the requirement is to have done one's own shearing) and made yarn, and then woven or knitted cloth... And what I saw was NOT "shawls" but suits and dresses. I presume it had been a while since a simple rectangle of home-created cloth had won "sheep to shawl" and they had escalated.
If a child lives in isolation and poverty, she will create imaginary friends, and use sticks for dolls, and draw pictures in the dirt with her finger.
Would that same child have become lazy if she had real friends, real dolls, paper and some colored pencils?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
Someone:
***I feel that the more and more exposure they have with TV and computers, the less and less human interaction they will have***
Jenny C:
-=-You will find thousands of homeschoolers that would agree with you. There are a LOT of homeschoolers that keep their kids out of school to keep their children's world small and narrowly defined. TV and computers allow for too much access to too many things that those kinds of families don't want for their kids. They WANT their kids to ONLY think and believe as they, the parents, do. -=-
The children will have less human interaction if their snooty parents refuse to watch TV or play on the computer with them, that's the first move.
But the children can have MORE human interaction if they eventually move out into social media and multi-player online games. I keep in touch with friends all over the world, and in my hometown (where I no longer live) because of the internet.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
***I feel that the more and more exposure they have with TV and computers, the less and less human interaction they will have***
Jenny C:
-=-You will find thousands of homeschoolers that would agree with you. There are a LOT of homeschoolers that keep their kids out of school to keep their children's world small and narrowly defined. TV and computers allow for too much access to too many things that those kinds of families don't want for their kids. They WANT their kids to ONLY think and believe as they, the parents, do. -=-
The children will have less human interaction if their snooty parents refuse to watch TV or play on the computer with them, that's the first move.
But the children can have MORE human interaction if they eventually move out into social media and multi-player online games. I keep in touch with friends all over the world, and in my hometown (where I no longer live) because of the internet.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
marlo_blake
I've never responded to anyone's post before because I don't think I know enough about the unschooling life to add any real depth... (I could have written this whole post; I just picked out certain areas)
***The thing also is that because I have not let them watch much, they really don't know what is out there, there for they don't really know what they want to watch, so I would still be choosing for them what to watch. I also don't think that if my 7yr old decided she wants to watch a show for teens I should let her, I mean that is why they have ratings, no?***
***...but back to the TV issue... I see your point and I will take what will benefit me, but respectfully disagree on the terms that they should choose how much time they should spend in front of the TV.***
***she had so many imaginary friends and was able to spend hours playing with them, and her imagination ran wild. I loved watching this play unfold before my eyes, and then... I went to visit my sister who had young ones as well, who watched a lot of TV and who knew (her kids) every Disney character***
***This went for 2years, and during those 2 years I felt terrible, because you know what???
My daughter's imaginary friends had disappeared, now they were replaced by Disney characters, she no longer used of her imagination to create the people she wanted. Instead, they were created for her...***
I used to think this way, and once I let go of the idea(s) of tv (and computers) and began trusting my children in this area, life became more simple & ENJOYABLE for my Children & me.
I took away the tv when my oldest (twins) were 4 - 5yo because I thought & Said that it was bad; I never let them "play" with the computer because I was Afraid of it for them, and I was Afraid of the radiation coming from it, etc, and those fears led to anger, resentment, panic, unhappiness, anxiety, etc. For years, too, I lived this way & I Thought we were all happy, but I Really wasn't happy toward the end of that path (as they got older & wanted to know/do/see more), so how could my children have been happy? So one day (in early March of This year), I pulled out the computer (which right now is our tv), and I just pulled up the Wiggles (a past favorite of theirs) on Youtube, and we started watching it. They were amazed and suspicious (I bet). We watched for a couple hours, and then the next day did it more, longer, different shows, then the next day and next and next, etc. Until one day, the computer stayed on all day. I remember (before it became an all day thing) laughing knowing that we spent 6 hrs one morning watching different things on the computer - we hadn't even gotten out of bed. Then the computer was brought down stairs & they sat on the couch & basically watched from the time they woke up til the time we went to bed.
Yes, this did go on for some "long" time, but, I saw it as catching up on what they had missed all those years. For some reason, too, I wasn't so worried as I thought I might be. Yes, I did look up information within this group & looked at Sandra's website & Joyce's page too, which led to other pages, and more useful information and what stuck out for me was the statement (please forgive me if I don't quote it exact because I don't know where I saw it) that This information was coming from real people Living this life & Seeing the results in their Grown/older children or of other older children; this wasn't coming from "research" from "experts" on Schooled children. That was profound for me.
Besides letting them watch for as long as they wanted, I let them watch whatever they wanted, too, and what I learned from that is that they wouldn't watch Anything they weren't ready for. They would ask me to turn it Quickly, or they would ask me to take out the DVD because it was "too much" for them (I was quoting what they say). That was key for me as a mom because I was again fearful (at first) of the things they might see, learn, accept; NOTE: I was projecting into the future & not staying in the present, and I was looking in view of schooled children. I thought for sure they would pick up bad behaviors, violence, etc, but, you know what??? They Didn't. They might have picked up phrases, but to me that's all part of growing & learning, and actually, the phrases don't/didn't even stick. Also, they don't watch All day like they used to - it varies now - just depends on what they want to do - what exciting thing is going on.
As far as the creativity part - mine, too, made up their own creative play which I thought was going to be lost forever, but what I learned instead is that their creative play didn't dwindle - it was enhanced! And, best of all, because I watch along (as best I can with 3 children & helping them) is that when they talk about a show I can relate to them, I can play with them, or sing along the songs from the movies or dance along with them from some of the movie songs, and I can learn the dance moves like they do from the Backyardigans or Barbie movies (when they have extra features at the end of the show). I couldn't imagine more fun, love, and joy with my children, and imagine the joy they get from it too. I'm still learning how to play when it comes to other types of play away from their movies. And to relearn to play isn't easy, I got help here, from these moms. And because of how we used to live, they would play, and I would never get involved. Very Sad. Just imagine young children staying at home with a mom who stopped playing with them when they turned 3ish for no REAL reason - again VERY SAD:-( I will admit, that I'm not the most creative person (right now) because I have a lot of concerns myself in other areas, but I can say that these moms helped me out a great deal.
***humans don't know how to be alone, everyone needs something outside the self to entertain them, and this is what I do NOT want for my kids, because I don't consider that healthy. My niece needs the TV on, while she plays a board game, just to have noise on the background. I don't find that to be healthy. It steals you from the moment, of being present to that game and really engaging with the other players.***
Again, I believed this way too (because I believed the "experts"), but I had to question that thought as well. And, I don't believe it anymore from just pure watching my own children. We have the computer tv/DVD on at times with no one watching it. I don't think they lose out on the present moment. Look at yourself for example (as I did), when the tv/radio is on are you more focused on that or what is going on at hand? Yah, you might look up at the tv here & there, but don't you look up when you hear a noise or a car going by or the phone ring? How is that taking you out of the present moment? One day my oldest daughter (7 1/2 yo) asked me to play a board game as the tv was on. I said sure. She kept going back & forth from the game to the computer. Was I put off by that? No. I just looked at it as maybe she wanted to do both, maybe she was trying to decide which was more interesting at the time, who knows, maybe she doesn't even know, but I don't think that took her/us out of the present moment. Don't you ever do that? It's hard to decide at times which is more interesting. I sat there & waited then she came up & said she wanted to watch the tv, and play later. Fine with me. She was happy, and so was I.
Is it a bad thing not to want to be alone? Humans are social beings. My mother is like that - wants to be at home (alone) most of the time. My sister & I used to complain that she never wanted to be around us because she'd rather be by herself. How is That healthy? She's not even a very happy person - That is not how I want to be with my children. We got 3 guinea pigs just recently, and you know what? When we take 1-2 pigs out at a time the one left Alone squeals to be by use or the other two, so we go and get it to be by us. If you shift your thoughts that "everyone needs something outside the self to entertain them" to something like "everyone does something that they enjoy & because of that they are happy", maybe that would help. I'm not speaking of depressed/ addictive type people who never really had a loving home.
***You will find thousands of homeschoolers that would agree with you. There are a LOT of homeschoolers that keep their kids out of school to keep their children's world small and narrowly defined. TV and computers allow for too much access to too many things that those kinds of families don't want for their kids. They WANT their kids to ONLY think and believe as they, the parents, do. So, you've already defined TV and computers to be too much, so what is next, specific books? Specific toys? No plastic toys, only wooden ones? Corn syrup? Skate boards? ***
***It was expansive! That experience left a huge impact on me. I WANT my kids to feel that feeling about life, that it's fun and adventurous and exciting. I can't help them with that if I'm constantly gauging whether or not a thing is going to damage them. I can't help them with that if I fear this, that, and the other thing is wrong and bad and dangerous. Fear is just as bad as no and is so often used to make "no" easy to say. I don't want my kids to fear the world. I don't want them to find danger around every corner. I want them to boldly embrace it and find adventure and fun around every corner.***
Again, I lived like this too (I know this is from another's response, but it ties in). I lived by what some "expert" said. I lived in FEAR of the world around me, and therefore, so did my children. The world is not a fearful place, but your Thoughts can sure make it seem that way. My "expert" said (not from this group) if you play with them, they won't learn to play/create on their own, if you give them coloring books, they won't learn to create their own pictures, so give them blank sheets of paper, markers are not good art tools, too many toys will cause them to fall into the role of consumerism, so don't take them to the stores, if you eat raw/whole foods, don't take them down the other aisles, electronic toys (ones that might do the "thing" for them) are not good because the toy takes away from creativity of figuring it out for themselves, don't rub them on the back when they are crying because they will associate that with pleasure/pain & sex when they get older, because your mom smokes always make a big fuss over it because then they will associate smoking with not-so-nice gramma & will stay away from it when they get older, don't read books that talk about morals good/bad, right/wrong or that talk about things other than the way You live (I mean Little House books were deemed bad because they talked about "good" boys/girls & baking cookies & because we ate raw at the time, it was considered not good! - What!?), etc, etc, etc. Do you see what I'm getting at? It's all fear-based parenting/living, and we lived like this for the past 3 or so years because I had situations in my life occur, and compared to where I was at mentally (& screaming at my children), this was "better" because I had gone from screaming every day at them to maybe once a week, to once every couple wks, months, etc. BUT because I was so desperate for help, I traded that for (not knowing/believing in myself) to believing an expert & living a life of constant FEAR. THAT is not what I want for my children OR FOR ME. ***Fear is just as bad as no and is so often used to make "no" easy to say. I don't want my kids to fear the world. I don't want them to find danger around every corner. I want them to boldly embrace it and find adventure and fun around every corner.***
I quoted this again because I find it VERY useful. This group has opened up many doors for me, and has made me Really think about life, joy & love in a totally different way. Slowly, I am getting ME back & confidence & joy & happiness. Unfortunately I have lots to undo, but maybe that really isn't unfortunate because I am Learning Something from it.
If this is out of line with the group, I apologize; if it doesn't get accepted I understand. One thing is that writing it helped Me too.
Marlo
***The thing also is that because I have not let them watch much, they really don't know what is out there, there for they don't really know what they want to watch, so I would still be choosing for them what to watch. I also don't think that if my 7yr old decided she wants to watch a show for teens I should let her, I mean that is why they have ratings, no?***
***...but back to the TV issue... I see your point and I will take what will benefit me, but respectfully disagree on the terms that they should choose how much time they should spend in front of the TV.***
***she had so many imaginary friends and was able to spend hours playing with them, and her imagination ran wild. I loved watching this play unfold before my eyes, and then... I went to visit my sister who had young ones as well, who watched a lot of TV and who knew (her kids) every Disney character***
***This went for 2years, and during those 2 years I felt terrible, because you know what???
My daughter's imaginary friends had disappeared, now they were replaced by Disney characters, she no longer used of her imagination to create the people she wanted. Instead, they were created for her...***
I used to think this way, and once I let go of the idea(s) of tv (and computers) and began trusting my children in this area, life became more simple & ENJOYABLE for my Children & me.
I took away the tv when my oldest (twins) were 4 - 5yo because I thought & Said that it was bad; I never let them "play" with the computer because I was Afraid of it for them, and I was Afraid of the radiation coming from it, etc, and those fears led to anger, resentment, panic, unhappiness, anxiety, etc. For years, too, I lived this way & I Thought we were all happy, but I Really wasn't happy toward the end of that path (as they got older & wanted to know/do/see more), so how could my children have been happy? So one day (in early March of This year), I pulled out the computer (which right now is our tv), and I just pulled up the Wiggles (a past favorite of theirs) on Youtube, and we started watching it. They were amazed and suspicious (I bet). We watched for a couple hours, and then the next day did it more, longer, different shows, then the next day and next and next, etc. Until one day, the computer stayed on all day. I remember (before it became an all day thing) laughing knowing that we spent 6 hrs one morning watching different things on the computer - we hadn't even gotten out of bed. Then the computer was brought down stairs & they sat on the couch & basically watched from the time they woke up til the time we went to bed.
Yes, this did go on for some "long" time, but, I saw it as catching up on what they had missed all those years. For some reason, too, I wasn't so worried as I thought I might be. Yes, I did look up information within this group & looked at Sandra's website & Joyce's page too, which led to other pages, and more useful information and what stuck out for me was the statement (please forgive me if I don't quote it exact because I don't know where I saw it) that This information was coming from real people Living this life & Seeing the results in their Grown/older children or of other older children; this wasn't coming from "research" from "experts" on Schooled children. That was profound for me.
Besides letting them watch for as long as they wanted, I let them watch whatever they wanted, too, and what I learned from that is that they wouldn't watch Anything they weren't ready for. They would ask me to turn it Quickly, or they would ask me to take out the DVD because it was "too much" for them (I was quoting what they say). That was key for me as a mom because I was again fearful (at first) of the things they might see, learn, accept; NOTE: I was projecting into the future & not staying in the present, and I was looking in view of schooled children. I thought for sure they would pick up bad behaviors, violence, etc, but, you know what??? They Didn't. They might have picked up phrases, but to me that's all part of growing & learning, and actually, the phrases don't/didn't even stick. Also, they don't watch All day like they used to - it varies now - just depends on what they want to do - what exciting thing is going on.
As far as the creativity part - mine, too, made up their own creative play which I thought was going to be lost forever, but what I learned instead is that their creative play didn't dwindle - it was enhanced! And, best of all, because I watch along (as best I can with 3 children & helping them) is that when they talk about a show I can relate to them, I can play with them, or sing along the songs from the movies or dance along with them from some of the movie songs, and I can learn the dance moves like they do from the Backyardigans or Barbie movies (when they have extra features at the end of the show). I couldn't imagine more fun, love, and joy with my children, and imagine the joy they get from it too. I'm still learning how to play when it comes to other types of play away from their movies. And to relearn to play isn't easy, I got help here, from these moms. And because of how we used to live, they would play, and I would never get involved. Very Sad. Just imagine young children staying at home with a mom who stopped playing with them when they turned 3ish for no REAL reason - again VERY SAD:-( I will admit, that I'm not the most creative person (right now) because I have a lot of concerns myself in other areas, but I can say that these moms helped me out a great deal.
***humans don't know how to be alone, everyone needs something outside the self to entertain them, and this is what I do NOT want for my kids, because I don't consider that healthy. My niece needs the TV on, while she plays a board game, just to have noise on the background. I don't find that to be healthy. It steals you from the moment, of being present to that game and really engaging with the other players.***
Again, I believed this way too (because I believed the "experts"), but I had to question that thought as well. And, I don't believe it anymore from just pure watching my own children. We have the computer tv/DVD on at times with no one watching it. I don't think they lose out on the present moment. Look at yourself for example (as I did), when the tv/radio is on are you more focused on that or what is going on at hand? Yah, you might look up at the tv here & there, but don't you look up when you hear a noise or a car going by or the phone ring? How is that taking you out of the present moment? One day my oldest daughter (7 1/2 yo) asked me to play a board game as the tv was on. I said sure. She kept going back & forth from the game to the computer. Was I put off by that? No. I just looked at it as maybe she wanted to do both, maybe she was trying to decide which was more interesting at the time, who knows, maybe she doesn't even know, but I don't think that took her/us out of the present moment. Don't you ever do that? It's hard to decide at times which is more interesting. I sat there & waited then she came up & said she wanted to watch the tv, and play later. Fine with me. She was happy, and so was I.
Is it a bad thing not to want to be alone? Humans are social beings. My mother is like that - wants to be at home (alone) most of the time. My sister & I used to complain that she never wanted to be around us because she'd rather be by herself. How is That healthy? She's not even a very happy person - That is not how I want to be with my children. We got 3 guinea pigs just recently, and you know what? When we take 1-2 pigs out at a time the one left Alone squeals to be by use or the other two, so we go and get it to be by us. If you shift your thoughts that "everyone needs something outside the self to entertain them" to something like "everyone does something that they enjoy & because of that they are happy", maybe that would help. I'm not speaking of depressed/ addictive type people who never really had a loving home.
***You will find thousands of homeschoolers that would agree with you. There are a LOT of homeschoolers that keep their kids out of school to keep their children's world small and narrowly defined. TV and computers allow for too much access to too many things that those kinds of families don't want for their kids. They WANT their kids to ONLY think and believe as they, the parents, do. So, you've already defined TV and computers to be too much, so what is next, specific books? Specific toys? No plastic toys, only wooden ones? Corn syrup? Skate boards? ***
***It was expansive! That experience left a huge impact on me. I WANT my kids to feel that feeling about life, that it's fun and adventurous and exciting. I can't help them with that if I'm constantly gauging whether or not a thing is going to damage them. I can't help them with that if I fear this, that, and the other thing is wrong and bad and dangerous. Fear is just as bad as no and is so often used to make "no" easy to say. I don't want my kids to fear the world. I don't want them to find danger around every corner. I want them to boldly embrace it and find adventure and fun around every corner.***
Again, I lived like this too (I know this is from another's response, but it ties in). I lived by what some "expert" said. I lived in FEAR of the world around me, and therefore, so did my children. The world is not a fearful place, but your Thoughts can sure make it seem that way. My "expert" said (not from this group) if you play with them, they won't learn to play/create on their own, if you give them coloring books, they won't learn to create their own pictures, so give them blank sheets of paper, markers are not good art tools, too many toys will cause them to fall into the role of consumerism, so don't take them to the stores, if you eat raw/whole foods, don't take them down the other aisles, electronic toys (ones that might do the "thing" for them) are not good because the toy takes away from creativity of figuring it out for themselves, don't rub them on the back when they are crying because they will associate that with pleasure/pain & sex when they get older, because your mom smokes always make a big fuss over it because then they will associate smoking with not-so-nice gramma & will stay away from it when they get older, don't read books that talk about morals good/bad, right/wrong or that talk about things other than the way You live (I mean Little House books were deemed bad because they talked about "good" boys/girls & baking cookies & because we ate raw at the time, it was considered not good! - What!?), etc, etc, etc. Do you see what I'm getting at? It's all fear-based parenting/living, and we lived like this for the past 3 or so years because I had situations in my life occur, and compared to where I was at mentally (& screaming at my children), this was "better" because I had gone from screaming every day at them to maybe once a week, to once every couple wks, months, etc. BUT because I was so desperate for help, I traded that for (not knowing/believing in myself) to believing an expert & living a life of constant FEAR. THAT is not what I want for my children OR FOR ME. ***Fear is just as bad as no and is so often used to make "no" easy to say. I don't want my kids to fear the world. I don't want them to find danger around every corner. I want them to boldly embrace it and find adventure and fun around every corner.***
I quoted this again because I find it VERY useful. This group has opened up many doors for me, and has made me Really think about life, joy & love in a totally different way. Slowly, I am getting ME back & confidence & joy & happiness. Unfortunately I have lots to undo, but maybe that really isn't unfortunate because I am Learning Something from it.
If this is out of line with the group, I apologize; if it doesn't get accepted I understand. One thing is that writing it helped Me too.
Marlo
haydee deldenovese
Wow, I don't really know where to start. I guess Im going to start with
saying to those who got offended, that I am sorry you felt that way when
you read my post, because my intent was not to hurt or offend anyone. It is
all the contrary, I do admire what you all do, but I find it that it should
be okay to have a dissagreement here and there. If we all agreed in every
point, then there would be no need for such groups.
I do also apreciate the replies, and although I must say that the comments
come accross quite harsh, cold and dry at times, I do know that there has
to be left some room for interpretation. I did not come here to insult
anyone, from the very begining I said I was lost and in need of guidance,
not that I knew what I was doing or that your children may not be smart
because of tv and computers. **I am ONLY talking about MY children and MY
situation, and the state of mind in which I am now!**
I mean the reason I came to this group was to get the tools I need to help
me find my way in the unschooling world. I read others stories, and some
made a lot of sense to me, and some didn't. I think that we can take what
rings true and discard the rest or leave it on the side to re-visit later.
I am not saying I am being told to change at once, It is just that we live
in completely different worlds, when it comes to media. I do want to find a
happy medium on that, but when I read that I should let my child choose the
amout of time he or she will spend in front of the screen, I get scared. I
don't like that look they get on their face, they (MY CHILDREN) look like
zombies, and I really don't know that it is normal. *And no, I don't know
any other unschoolers in my area and NO, I don't have a group I can connect
with in my area that shares your same points of view, neither have I seen
first hand unschooled child whom I can ask questions to...
Please understand, that I feel alone in all this, and then when I come here
and post a message, it isn't well resieved. Again, I have zero intentions
on rubbing someone the wrong way, so if it does come across hurful to you,
think of taking it another way (the way it was intended)
The whole thing with the TV, you all have a point. She was probably adding
to her imaginary friends, but I didn't think of that, I didn't see it that
way, and because I am sorrounded by people who think a certain way, it all
made sense to me. So much so, that I believed that is what it was, and I
recited it. The thing is that I am an open minded person, and I do take
this comments and allow time to process them. After doing that, yeah, I
agree that it could well be the case, and that in fact I should allow them
to explore more with it.
Also, the thing is that they hadrly ever ask to watch TV. Neither my
husband or I are TV watchers, (maybe at night b4 bed for an hour) so the TV
isn't really on during the day, or anything like that, but when they do ask
me to watch, I do let them, and if they watch a show, and its over and they
ask to watch another, chances are I say yes (unless is an adult program)
*no I have not read the family guy post yet, but I sure will now*
So, when I say my kids don't watch that much tv, it isn't because I am
saying NO, or because I am a snooty parent, it is mainly because they don't
really ask to watch it. They do enjoy watching Woody Allen movies, though
and we do it as a family thing. I guess my problem would be too much of it
(moderation is good) now, I know that I should allow them to find when
moderation should be used, and I am leaning that way, I just don't see the
oportunity... What do I do now? say... btw kids, now you are allowed to
watch as much tv as you would like! or do I just wait for the moment in
which they ask if they can watch tv...
"I WANT my kids to feel that feeling about life, that it's fun and
adventurous and exciting. I can't help them with that if I'm constantly
gauging whether or not a thing is going to damage them. I can't help them
with that if I fear this, that, and the other thing is wrong and bad and
dangerous. Fear is just as bad as no and is so often used to make "no"
easy to say. I don't want my kids to fear the world. I don't want them to
find danger around every corner. I want them to boldly embrace it and find
adventure and fun around every corner."
"It starts with the little things like saying "yes" to TV."
Thank you for that, because although you don't agree with my point, your
response was very nice and har warmness to it. Reading things like this,
makes it easier to accept and to process, especially because it rings so
true to me. I do let fear occupy too much of my space. I do feel that fear,
takes over half of the time, or more like 90% of the time. That is def
something I need to work on, and i def will.
I actually over came one of my fears yesterday, for my daughters sake and
it was wonderful. Growing up, I experienced nothing, like i didnt ride a
bike, i didnt skate board, i didnt ski, and basically I did nothing sporty
or outdoors, I didnt learn to dive... anyway...
My husband and I want the opposite for the kids we want the to explore, and
be outdoors (as long as they like) so we went to the lakes and took them
canoeing. My son(4) wanted to jump in the water, and (I am not good in the
water either) so then my husband who is very good in the water said ok,
then lets do it!
so then my daughter is looking at me, waiting for me to take inisiative and
jump as well, to give her the confidence she needed (becaue I think that
fear can be spread even if it is uspoken) and to be honest, I was afraid to
do it, so instead of saying go ahead, why don't you join them, I reached
out for a life vest, put it on, and said "watch this" jumped in the water,
and her eyes just lid up! she followed suit and we had an amazing time...
so I do see how fear could have changed that moment if I had let it, it
just isn't easy to see at times, sometimes you need someone else to put
things into perspective... to shine the light...
"I wonder whether often the fear people have about letting their children
watch as much TV as they want is that they will immediately and from
thereon choose to do nothing else, for ever. Perhaps they will watch a lot
to begin with, perhaps for always, and then go on to a career in film and
TV for instance ;-), Or perhaps they will watch a lot and then not a lot,
or not a lot at all...."
"For me this fear leaves when we trust that our children have inquiring
minds, and a huge imaginations. That their minds are not vacuums waiting to
be filled, but enormous vessels for collection of ideas, discovery and
growth. The world can be their oyster, if we help them (especially when
they're little). If they are living in a safe, loving environment, we can
trust that they will Grow from what they encounter, not shrink."
Thank you for that Jo, I will be processing that tonight ! because again
(fear)....
**"The paragraph I am slicing up and laying out for light to shine upon
began with "I get what you are telling me,..."
and more specifically, "I get what you are telling me, but..."**
**"Yeah but" is "no", right? :-)**
*If you're going to build a defensive fortress of ideas and words, why put
it out here in the discussion?*
But, is not No! but is really a question for me... I tend to ask why of
why and they but why this and why that, so NO that but did not mean NO! it
was simply a but...then, why, etc.
And no, I don't really think I am building defensive fortresses of ideas, I
think that I am looking for others opinions with inquisition, and want to
know more and why...
="I am sorry, but this is not a personal attack on anyone! I am pretty
genuin on what I write, and if I have questions, is because I am looking
for answers, and if i have answers, it is perhaps because I have a question
about it."=
I have to say that although I love the concept of this group, I think it
also, has its dissadvantages, because with only words, there is so much
that is lead to interpretation, and things can just be taken out of context
and the wrong way, in which case can be a disservice to those who are
really looking for answers, I mean there is a lot to gain from this group!
I don't want that to be taken the wrong way, its just that there is a lot
of room for interpretation that is all...
I wish there was a group near me tha just met in person and go over this
topics, because they are great, but (this only means but) (and I mean that
in a funny way to kind of lighten up this ending...jic) it is just a shame
that things can be taken so out of context at times.
"Which is saying that we don't care if we damage our kids' brains."
=No, that is not what I was saying... for one, i was only speaking about my
kids, and then there is also the thought of not knowing what we don't
know... how do I know you are right and I am wrong, or how do I know that I
am right and you are wrong?
so because I don't really know, because I am not a researcher, I sord of
believed them, but that is the reason I am here, to find other opinions and
formulate my own, not to insult those whom I am seeking... now thoes that
make any sense?=
"Do you have a 5 yo who has asked for a whole beer? The problem with straw
men is that they sound possible, but that doesn't mean it will actually
happen. That's why we discuss real issues rather than imagined issues."
=Yes, I do have a 4yr old actually that asked me to let him try a beer and
I did as well. Once he tried it, he liked it and wanted more. I also have a
6 yr old that asked me to try bourbon, and I let her as well, and she also
liked it and asked me for a glass, so this are not made up, they actually
did happen and I did say no... could I have worded it a bit better like
you? Yes! i do give you that, but again... that is why I am here, because I
also need to learn how to speak to my children in a way that isn't well...
the way I do.
Not to mention that there is an addictive gene in our family, so this
"fear" does take part on that "no" decision...
...okay, well my children just came in, and they need me so I will sing
off, by saying Thank You to ALL the comments :0)
and I mean it, because good or bad, it is always good in the end...
Haydee
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
saying to those who got offended, that I am sorry you felt that way when
you read my post, because my intent was not to hurt or offend anyone. It is
all the contrary, I do admire what you all do, but I find it that it should
be okay to have a dissagreement here and there. If we all agreed in every
point, then there would be no need for such groups.
I do also apreciate the replies, and although I must say that the comments
come accross quite harsh, cold and dry at times, I do know that there has
to be left some room for interpretation. I did not come here to insult
anyone, from the very begining I said I was lost and in need of guidance,
not that I knew what I was doing or that your children may not be smart
because of tv and computers. **I am ONLY talking about MY children and MY
situation, and the state of mind in which I am now!**
I mean the reason I came to this group was to get the tools I need to help
me find my way in the unschooling world. I read others stories, and some
made a lot of sense to me, and some didn't. I think that we can take what
rings true and discard the rest or leave it on the side to re-visit later.
I am not saying I am being told to change at once, It is just that we live
in completely different worlds, when it comes to media. I do want to find a
happy medium on that, but when I read that I should let my child choose the
amout of time he or she will spend in front of the screen, I get scared. I
don't like that look they get on their face, they (MY CHILDREN) look like
zombies, and I really don't know that it is normal. *And no, I don't know
any other unschoolers in my area and NO, I don't have a group I can connect
with in my area that shares your same points of view, neither have I seen
first hand unschooled child whom I can ask questions to...
Please understand, that I feel alone in all this, and then when I come here
and post a message, it isn't well resieved. Again, I have zero intentions
on rubbing someone the wrong way, so if it does come across hurful to you,
think of taking it another way (the way it was intended)
The whole thing with the TV, you all have a point. She was probably adding
to her imaginary friends, but I didn't think of that, I didn't see it that
way, and because I am sorrounded by people who think a certain way, it all
made sense to me. So much so, that I believed that is what it was, and I
recited it. The thing is that I am an open minded person, and I do take
this comments and allow time to process them. After doing that, yeah, I
agree that it could well be the case, and that in fact I should allow them
to explore more with it.
Also, the thing is that they hadrly ever ask to watch TV. Neither my
husband or I are TV watchers, (maybe at night b4 bed for an hour) so the TV
isn't really on during the day, or anything like that, but when they do ask
me to watch, I do let them, and if they watch a show, and its over and they
ask to watch another, chances are I say yes (unless is an adult program)
*no I have not read the family guy post yet, but I sure will now*
So, when I say my kids don't watch that much tv, it isn't because I am
saying NO, or because I am a snooty parent, it is mainly because they don't
really ask to watch it. They do enjoy watching Woody Allen movies, though
and we do it as a family thing. I guess my problem would be too much of it
(moderation is good) now, I know that I should allow them to find when
moderation should be used, and I am leaning that way, I just don't see the
oportunity... What do I do now? say... btw kids, now you are allowed to
watch as much tv as you would like! or do I just wait for the moment in
which they ask if they can watch tv...
"I WANT my kids to feel that feeling about life, that it's fun and
adventurous and exciting. I can't help them with that if I'm constantly
gauging whether or not a thing is going to damage them. I can't help them
with that if I fear this, that, and the other thing is wrong and bad and
dangerous. Fear is just as bad as no and is so often used to make "no"
easy to say. I don't want my kids to fear the world. I don't want them to
find danger around every corner. I want them to boldly embrace it and find
adventure and fun around every corner."
"It starts with the little things like saying "yes" to TV."
Thank you for that, because although you don't agree with my point, your
response was very nice and har warmness to it. Reading things like this,
makes it easier to accept and to process, especially because it rings so
true to me. I do let fear occupy too much of my space. I do feel that fear,
takes over half of the time, or more like 90% of the time. That is def
something I need to work on, and i def will.
I actually over came one of my fears yesterday, for my daughters sake and
it was wonderful. Growing up, I experienced nothing, like i didnt ride a
bike, i didnt skate board, i didnt ski, and basically I did nothing sporty
or outdoors, I didnt learn to dive... anyway...
My husband and I want the opposite for the kids we want the to explore, and
be outdoors (as long as they like) so we went to the lakes and took them
canoeing. My son(4) wanted to jump in the water, and (I am not good in the
water either) so then my husband who is very good in the water said ok,
then lets do it!
so then my daughter is looking at me, waiting for me to take inisiative and
jump as well, to give her the confidence she needed (becaue I think that
fear can be spread even if it is uspoken) and to be honest, I was afraid to
do it, so instead of saying go ahead, why don't you join them, I reached
out for a life vest, put it on, and said "watch this" jumped in the water,
and her eyes just lid up! she followed suit and we had an amazing time...
so I do see how fear could have changed that moment if I had let it, it
just isn't easy to see at times, sometimes you need someone else to put
things into perspective... to shine the light...
"I wonder whether often the fear people have about letting their children
watch as much TV as they want is that they will immediately and from
thereon choose to do nothing else, for ever. Perhaps they will watch a lot
to begin with, perhaps for always, and then go on to a career in film and
TV for instance ;-), Or perhaps they will watch a lot and then not a lot,
or not a lot at all...."
"For me this fear leaves when we trust that our children have inquiring
minds, and a huge imaginations. That their minds are not vacuums waiting to
be filled, but enormous vessels for collection of ideas, discovery and
growth. The world can be their oyster, if we help them (especially when
they're little). If they are living in a safe, loving environment, we can
trust that they will Grow from what they encounter, not shrink."
Thank you for that Jo, I will be processing that tonight ! because again
(fear)....
**"The paragraph I am slicing up and laying out for light to shine upon
began with "I get what you are telling me,..."
and more specifically, "I get what you are telling me, but..."**
**"Yeah but" is "no", right? :-)**
*If you're going to build a defensive fortress of ideas and words, why put
it out here in the discussion?*
But, is not No! but is really a question for me... I tend to ask why of
why and they but why this and why that, so NO that but did not mean NO! it
was simply a but...then, why, etc.
And no, I don't really think I am building defensive fortresses of ideas, I
think that I am looking for others opinions with inquisition, and want to
know more and why...
="I am sorry, but this is not a personal attack on anyone! I am pretty
genuin on what I write, and if I have questions, is because I am looking
for answers, and if i have answers, it is perhaps because I have a question
about it."=
I have to say that although I love the concept of this group, I think it
also, has its dissadvantages, because with only words, there is so much
that is lead to interpretation, and things can just be taken out of context
and the wrong way, in which case can be a disservice to those who are
really looking for answers, I mean there is a lot to gain from this group!
I don't want that to be taken the wrong way, its just that there is a lot
of room for interpretation that is all...
I wish there was a group near me tha just met in person and go over this
topics, because they are great, but (this only means but) (and I mean that
in a funny way to kind of lighten up this ending...jic) it is just a shame
that things can be taken so out of context at times.
"Which is saying that we don't care if we damage our kids' brains."
=No, that is not what I was saying... for one, i was only speaking about my
kids, and then there is also the thought of not knowing what we don't
know... how do I know you are right and I am wrong, or how do I know that I
am right and you are wrong?
so because I don't really know, because I am not a researcher, I sord of
believed them, but that is the reason I am here, to find other opinions and
formulate my own, not to insult those whom I am seeking... now thoes that
make any sense?=
"Do you have a 5 yo who has asked for a whole beer? The problem with straw
men is that they sound possible, but that doesn't mean it will actually
happen. That's why we discuss real issues rather than imagined issues."
=Yes, I do have a 4yr old actually that asked me to let him try a beer and
I did as well. Once he tried it, he liked it and wanted more. I also have a
6 yr old that asked me to try bourbon, and I let her as well, and she also
liked it and asked me for a glass, so this are not made up, they actually
did happen and I did say no... could I have worded it a bit better like
you? Yes! i do give you that, but again... that is why I am here, because I
also need to learn how to speak to my children in a way that isn't well...
the way I do.
Not to mention that there is an addictive gene in our family, so this
"fear" does take part on that "no" decision...
...okay, well my children just came in, and they need me so I will sing
off, by saying Thank You to ALL the comments :0)
and I mean it, because good or bad, it is always good in the end...
Haydee
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
<<<<<<<"I have to say that although I love the concept of this group, I think it
also, has its dissadvantages, because with only words, there is so much
that is lead to interpretation, and things can just be taken out of context
and the wrong way, in which case can be a disservice to those who are
really looking for answers, I mean there is a lot to gain from this group!
I don't want that to be taken the wrong way, its just that there is a lot
of room for interpretation that is all... ">>>>>>>>>>>>>
As someone with a Law degree in my back I can say I am well aware how written words can have lots of room for interpretation.
Many lawyers make their living interpreting written statements and how to , may times, manipulate them to their advantage.
With those qualifications and the disclosure that English in not my first language I have to strongly disagree with the statement above.
If there is a group as clear and direct as AlwaysLearning in the internet I would be surprised.
I have learned to much about unschooling and how important wording is when writing and discussions in the last few years just by reading here.
I am much more careful with the words I choose to write down because of this group.
I know the amazing woman that write here put a huge effort in trying to make ideas as clearly as possible so there are few, if any, misinterpretations of the ideas supported here. I am aware there will still be people who will grab one to idea and run with it before they can fully understand why and that may cause them problems. That is why Sandra says:
"Read a little, try a little, wait a while, watch."
And make sure you came back and ask more questions if you have them. Do not wait years if things are not going well or if you are not understanding why you are doing something.
You wrote several things very clearly and now you are backing up and saying you did not mean them at all.
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
also, has its dissadvantages, because with only words, there is so much
that is lead to interpretation, and things can just be taken out of context
and the wrong way, in which case can be a disservice to those who are
really looking for answers, I mean there is a lot to gain from this group!
I don't want that to be taken the wrong way, its just that there is a lot
of room for interpretation that is all... ">>>>>>>>>>>>>
As someone with a Law degree in my back I can say I am well aware how written words can have lots of room for interpretation.
Many lawyers make their living interpreting written statements and how to , may times, manipulate them to their advantage.
With those qualifications and the disclosure that English in not my first language I have to strongly disagree with the statement above.
If there is a group as clear and direct as AlwaysLearning in the internet I would be surprised.
I have learned to much about unschooling and how important wording is when writing and discussions in the last few years just by reading here.
I am much more careful with the words I choose to write down because of this group.
I know the amazing woman that write here put a huge effort in trying to make ideas as clearly as possible so there are few, if any, misinterpretations of the ideas supported here. I am aware there will still be people who will grab one to idea and run with it before they can fully understand why and that may cause them problems. That is why Sandra says:
"Read a little, try a little, wait a while, watch."
And make sure you came back and ask more questions if you have them. Do not wait years if things are not going well or if you are not understanding why you are doing something.
You wrote several things very clearly and now you are backing up and saying you did not mean them at all.
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jun 22, 2012, at 11:29 AM, haydee deldenovese wrote:
So, at this point, it will help you build a better understanding of what's been said on the list if you don't post for a week or more.
Do as Sandra suggests: "Read a little, try a little, wait a while, watch."
Learn to look at your kids and trust that happiness means they're happy.
Sometimes people on the list get irritated when posters seem to not be reading what's written, seem to be skimming for agreement with what they've stated, parroting phrases they've heard without thinking what they really mean. The ideas on this list are often counter to what most people believe is true of kids. But we aren't spouting theory. We passing on what we observe in unschooled kids. We're passing on analysis of what the factors are that cause unschooled kids react differently from what people believe.
The list focuses on holding ideas up to an unschooling light, to see if they match what happens in unschooling homes, to see if they're aligned with the principles of the unschooling philosophy. While that can sound dogmatic, the principles are those that support peace, joy and strong relationships. They're firmly grounded in what helps humans pursue our passions while living in harmony with other people.
Ideas that don't stand up under that light get pulled apart and examined.
Everyone else is welcome to read and take what they find useful. Everyone who wants to post is asked to respect the purpose of the list.
People who disagree with the ideas will be more at peace with the list if they understand they're welcome to hold whatever ideas they have -- how could we stop them?! -- but if those ideas are posted to the list, they will be pulled apart and examined under an unschooling light.
The freedom to believe isn't the same as some made up freedom to be able to speak without being disagreed with.
Most people are used to help that sounds like "It sounds like you're doing the best you can. Have you tried this? It might help.'
That isn't this list. And it's why we ask people to read for a while before they post. We really truly don't want people to be hurt by how the list operates. But the list is geared for people who want their advice straight. It's directed at the audience who wants: "Here's what I see. Here's where your thinking is off. Do this instead."
IF the list tries to serve those who need gentleness then it ceases to serve the people it intends to reach.
Really and truly it can't do both. I know that sounds fishy. But what was written to you and the way it was written was exactly what someone who was reading wanted to hear. Those are the people the list is geared toward.
If you go to a Godsmack concert and all the Godsmack fans are loving it but you aren't, should you complain that they aren't playing the kind of music you like?
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Wow, I don't really know where to start.Take this as said gently: Sometimes it's best not to. Sometimes it's best to let information from this list sit and swirl around inside of you. A lot of what's said can irritate long held beliefs. If people respond when they're irritated -- whether to this list or in real life -- their thoughts aren't as clear as they will be if they wait.
So, at this point, it will help you build a better understanding of what's been said on the list if you don't post for a week or more.
Do as Sandra suggests: "Read a little, try a little, wait a while, watch."
Learn to look at your kids and trust that happiness means they're happy.
> Im going to start withFor you disagreement must be tied to anger so you heard a tone where none was given.
> saying to those who got offended
Sometimes people on the list get irritated when posters seem to not be reading what's written, seem to be skimming for agreement with what they've stated, parroting phrases they've heard without thinking what they really mean. The ideas on this list are often counter to what most people believe is true of kids. But we aren't spouting theory. We passing on what we observe in unschooled kids. We're passing on analysis of what the factors are that cause unschooled kids react differently from what people believe.
> but I find it that it shouldBut you don't want people on the list to disagree back.
> be okay to have a disagreement
The list focuses on holding ideas up to an unschooling light, to see if they match what happens in unschooling homes, to see if they're aligned with the principles of the unschooling philosophy. While that can sound dogmatic, the principles are those that support peace, joy and strong relationships. They're firmly grounded in what helps humans pursue our passions while living in harmony with other people.
Ideas that don't stand up under that light get pulled apart and examined.
> If we all agreed in everyThe group is directed at those who agree or want to understand better AND who learn through analysis of ideas.
> point, then there would be no need for such groups.
Everyone else is welcome to read and take what they find useful. Everyone who wants to post is asked to respect the purpose of the list.
People who disagree with the ideas will be more at peace with the list if they understand they're welcome to hold whatever ideas they have -- how could we stop them?! -- but if those ideas are posted to the list, they will be pulled apart and examined under an unschooling light.
The freedom to believe isn't the same as some made up freedom to be able to speak without being disagreed with.
> I must say that the commentsThe words arrive without a tone. Any tone is supplied by the reader. If long time poster's posts reads harsh, cold or dry it's helpful to read it with the tone your best friend might use. If that doesn't work, then just accept that person's style doesn't match your learning style. Suggesting they change because you can't read them as other than cold means you assume that no one could like their style. And that's not true. A smorgasbord of replies is offered to everyone. Everyone can pick and choose what they like and who they read.
> come accross quite harsh, cold and dry at times
> from the very begining I said I was lost and in need of guidance,And this would be an instance of where waiting a good while will help you more than posting your initial reaction. It's assumed everyone who asks a question is asking for help.
> not that I knew what I was doing or that your children may not be smart
> because of tv and computers
Most people are used to help that sounds like "It sounds like you're doing the best you can. Have you tried this? It might help.'
That isn't this list. And it's why we ask people to read for a while before they post. We really truly don't want people to be hurt by how the list operates. But the list is geared for people who want their advice straight. It's directed at the audience who wants: "Here's what I see. Here's where your thinking is off. Do this instead."
IF the list tries to serve those who need gentleness then it ceases to serve the people it intends to reach.
Really and truly it can't do both. I know that sounds fishy. But what was written to you and the way it was written was exactly what someone who was reading wanted to hear. Those are the people the list is geared toward.
If you go to a Godsmack concert and all the Godsmack fans are loving it but you aren't, should you complain that they aren't playing the kind of music you like?
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
On Fri, Jun 22, 2012 at 9:54 AM, Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...>wrote:
harsh, cold and dry. Sometimes they shock me. And I'm an old hand at this.
with lack of words). The tone on this list tends to be very direct and
to-the-point and pretty strident. I don't think people are necessarily
always misperceiving the tone, but that they really don't like it. That's
okay - not everyone's cup of tea. Again, they should read quietly for a
while and decide if they want to participate or not. It is very rude to
complain about it, though. When I go to an opera I don't complain if they
are singing in Italian and I can't understand them. I don't take it
personally and get my feelings hurt. I don't send them emails trying to
convince them to sing in English and explaining (as if they don't know)
that most of their audience doesn't speak Italian.
So - thank you to all those who are reading, not posting, but not
complaining. That's very courteous of you. I hope you are getting a lot out
of reading.
I had laser surgery on my eyes (not the kind to get better vision, but
because I have glaucoma). It consisted of hundreds of little tiny blasts of
the laser and, at first, each blast was shocking to me and I thought I
wasn't going to be able to stand it. But after a few minutes I was fine - I
could still feel it, but knowing what to expect eliminated most of the
pain. I stopped flinching. And it was well worth it - I got way better,
got off some medicine that I didn't like using, and I'll be doing the
surgery again in a few years as the glaucoma progresses.
Sometimes I feel like this list is like my laser surgery. At first there is
a bit of a shock and it can hurt. But for those of us who hang in there and
figure out what to expect, the shock wears off and we start to appreciate
how much we are gaining from the laser-like focus.
My doctor wasn't mean - she was quite kind.
And she warned me it would hurt.
We aren't mean either. And we warn all newcomers to the list that they
should just read for a while and get acclimated before they engage in
discussion on this list. It can hurt - having our ideas and beliefs
dissected and exposed and critiqued isn't comfortable. And people shouldn't
expose themselves to it if they aren't willing to take the risk of
experiencing discomfort. Lots of people just read. And learn a lot. It is a
legitimate thing to do here. Some aren't comfortable reading and they go
find other places to talk about unschooling. That's reasonable and fine,
too.
Some people ignore the warnings and then complain when their ideas are
critiqued (pretty darn harshly). They either stay and admonish us and try
to convince us to change or go elsewhere and spend a lot of time
badmouthing this list and Sandra and sometimes me or others here. None of
that is good for them and their families and I'd really encourage those who
don't like the tone of this list to just read quietly for a month or more
and then, if they still don't like it, quietly go find a place you like
better. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > I must say that the commentsI love this list, but I don't disagree that the comments sometimes seem
> > come accross quite harsh, cold and dry at times
>
>
harsh, cold and dry. Sometimes they shock me. And I'm an old hand at this.
>>The words arrive without a tone. Any tone is supplied by the reader.<<I don't think this is true - we create a tone with our words (and sometimes
>
with lack of words). The tone on this list tends to be very direct and
to-the-point and pretty strident. I don't think people are necessarily
always misperceiving the tone, but that they really don't like it. That's
okay - not everyone's cup of tea. Again, they should read quietly for a
while and decide if they want to participate or not. It is very rude to
complain about it, though. When I go to an opera I don't complain if they
are singing in Italian and I can't understand them. I don't take it
personally and get my feelings hurt. I don't send them emails trying to
convince them to sing in English and explaining (as if they don't know)
that most of their audience doesn't speak Italian.
So - thank you to all those who are reading, not posting, but not
complaining. That's very courteous of you. I hope you are getting a lot out
of reading.
I had laser surgery on my eyes (not the kind to get better vision, but
because I have glaucoma). It consisted of hundreds of little tiny blasts of
the laser and, at first, each blast was shocking to me and I thought I
wasn't going to be able to stand it. But after a few minutes I was fine - I
could still feel it, but knowing what to expect eliminated most of the
pain. I stopped flinching. And it was well worth it - I got way better,
got off some medicine that I didn't like using, and I'll be doing the
surgery again in a few years as the glaucoma progresses.
Sometimes I feel like this list is like my laser surgery. At first there is
a bit of a shock and it can hurt. But for those of us who hang in there and
figure out what to expect, the shock wears off and we start to appreciate
how much we are gaining from the laser-like focus.
My doctor wasn't mean - she was quite kind.
And she warned me it would hurt.
We aren't mean either. And we warn all newcomers to the list that they
should just read for a while and get acclimated before they engage in
discussion on this list. It can hurt - having our ideas and beliefs
dissected and exposed and critiqued isn't comfortable. And people shouldn't
expose themselves to it if they aren't willing to take the risk of
experiencing discomfort. Lots of people just read. And learn a lot. It is a
legitimate thing to do here. Some aren't comfortable reading and they go
find other places to talk about unschooling. That's reasonable and fine,
too.
Some people ignore the warnings and then complain when their ideas are
critiqued (pretty darn harshly). They either stay and admonish us and try
to convince us to change or go elsewhere and spend a lot of time
badmouthing this list and Sandra and sometimes me or others here. None of
that is good for them and their families and I'd really encourage those who
don't like the tone of this list to just read quietly for a month or more
and then, if they still don't like it, quietly go find a place you like
better. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
***I did not come here to insult
anyone, from the very begining I said I was lost and in need of guidance,
not that I knew what I was doing or that your children may not be smart
because of tv and computers. **I am ONLY talking about MY children and MY
situation, and the state of mind in which I am now!** ***
However, You stated that you were worried about your children having their brains damaged from watching too much TV. You base this thought on research that you've read, which presumably would apply to ALL children. Those of us with older children are saying it didn't happen. So, even if there were some very special children that experienced brain damage from watching TV, it clearly ALSO didn't happen to loads of other children, which either makes the research a bunch of hooey, or it means their sample set of kids were already brain damaged in some other way and they wanted TV to be the scapegoat. That happens a lot in research done on kids and... (insert whatever it is that adults want kids to NOT do).
***I do want to find a
happy medium on that, but when I read that I should let my child choose the
amout of time he or she will spend in front of the screen, I get scared. I
don't like that look they get on their face, they (MY CHILDREN) look like
zombies, and I really don't know that it is normal.***
The biggest problem in that scenario, is the "letting the child choose" part. It isn't a one or the other kind of thing. The TV and computer are both tools and it will help loads to view them that way. Sometimes tools don't get used and it isn't something you necessarily hand over to your kids. If a kid needs the tool, you offer to help them with that, get it for them, turn it on, participate with, etc.
The only kids that I've met that get that trance like look on their faces while watching TV are the kids in which TV has been highly restricted. I've met lots and lots of kids. My own kids who can watch TV and use the computer whenever they want to, turn it off many times, especially if there are guests or there are more interesting things to do. When TV and computers are restricted, it becomes more valuable and rare. The more so that is, the more kids will want a little piece of that. Parents create that entirely. If TV and computers are no bigger deal than a board game, kids will happily and easily move away from the TV and computer when they are done or something better comes along. They absolutely CAN'T make that choice unless they have it to begin with.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
anyone, from the very begining I said I was lost and in need of guidance,
not that I knew what I was doing or that your children may not be smart
because of tv and computers. **I am ONLY talking about MY children and MY
situation, and the state of mind in which I am now!** ***
However, You stated that you were worried about your children having their brains damaged from watching too much TV. You base this thought on research that you've read, which presumably would apply to ALL children. Those of us with older children are saying it didn't happen. So, even if there were some very special children that experienced brain damage from watching TV, it clearly ALSO didn't happen to loads of other children, which either makes the research a bunch of hooey, or it means their sample set of kids were already brain damaged in some other way and they wanted TV to be the scapegoat. That happens a lot in research done on kids and... (insert whatever it is that adults want kids to NOT do).
***I do want to find a
happy medium on that, but when I read that I should let my child choose the
amout of time he or she will spend in front of the screen, I get scared. I
don't like that look they get on their face, they (MY CHILDREN) look like
zombies, and I really don't know that it is normal.***
The biggest problem in that scenario, is the "letting the child choose" part. It isn't a one or the other kind of thing. The TV and computer are both tools and it will help loads to view them that way. Sometimes tools don't get used and it isn't something you necessarily hand over to your kids. If a kid needs the tool, you offer to help them with that, get it for them, turn it on, participate with, etc.
The only kids that I've met that get that trance like look on their faces while watching TV are the kids in which TV has been highly restricted. I've met lots and lots of kids. My own kids who can watch TV and use the computer whenever they want to, turn it off many times, especially if there are guests or there are more interesting things to do. When TV and computers are restricted, it becomes more valuable and rare. The more so that is, the more kids will want a little piece of that. Parents create that entirely. If TV and computers are no bigger deal than a board game, kids will happily and easily move away from the TV and computer when they are done or something better comes along. They absolutely CAN'T make that choice unless they have it to begin with.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]