scary 11 yr old writing on Facebook
janedonnelly402
My Daughter wrote the following she is 11 as of this past March and wrote this facebook post about a month ago.
======I hate my life.Its full of nothingness. My life is a never ending black pit of despair. A little voice inside my head telling me to run away from it. Telling me that the only thing worth living for is music. Music makes my life worth living for. Why do I exist when no one even pays any attention to me? Why am I the one that nobody listens to or cares about? The only people who seem to notice me are... S.,Li.,and Ty.. Why did my best friend leave me without any warning and disappear off the face of the planet? Why do I think about killing myself just to get away from it? Do I cry myself to sleep every night? Yes. Have I put a knife up to my neck before? Yes. If anyone actually cares about me,please tell me. Tell me that I belong here on this Earth. That I actually have a purpose,except ruining everyone's lives. I only have a short time left on this Earth before something drastic happens.=====
first- the friend leaving she speaks of was took out of school for being sick for 3 weeks and then never returned and the school said the family moved, my daughter is aware of this but still feels lonely by the girl leaving even though I believe the girl had no choice in the matter.
I spoke to her in a round about way about some things she said in the above writing but did not bring it up directly as I think she blocked my seeing it on Facebook since my neice pointed it out to me that she had wrote it. I don't want her to feel I am spying on her either by forcing any issues.
She is adamant that her feelings of not being liked-cared about- have to do with kids at school as when I named off family that love her she rolled her eyes and said--- I know that I don't mean family---.
I decided that she will not be returning to school next year and to give the school written notice to avoid truancy issues that she will be homeschooling next year as our law requires-
I will let her decide whether to go back to school next year as once I told her she did not have to return she was happy at first but then after thinking on it some she brought up some activities they do at school that she will miss out on. I told her it is up to her.
Her Dad would prefer she stays in school but if her and I decide something he will trust that we are making the right choice and support us...at least so far anyway he says he will and in our years together he has followed willingly in whatever I chose to do.He is very proud of her being a smart good grades kid but fails to see that this last year her grades are flopping around like a fish out of water. I think his fears are valid as it took me a long time to come to terms that she will be okay if she unschools. I still have my doubts if it is the -right- choice but it appears a better choice than her being as unhappy as she is now.
I feel the grades flopping around are only a beginning to a downfall to rebellion and misery for her and a future without joy, a visible measure of things not right in her life. I had my life go downhill starting at that age as well I know very much what she feels like being lonely and feeling ostracized--even if she does not see that I do, i am--old-- according to her- so I guess being old means I could not understand.
Well,I could go on but I am feeling I have wrote enough for now and there are many things for the people on this list to point out to me that I cannot see for myself. I am good at boxing myself in and not seeing other choices but feeling lots of have to's.
So I guess I need feedback on her writing and some ideas to help me figure out whatever it may be I need to figure out.
Also I have been reading here for a few months and posted a couple times with a different name but could not use that anymore as it was my work email and not appropriate for this list or work as I did not know the email would show up when posting when i signed up originally. and have read Sandra's site quite a bit but not completely every link on it. as well as a Dayna Martin Book and some other blogs and articles.
I have been working on saying yes more and no less and other ideas I got from this list and it's resources.
======I hate my life.Its full of nothingness. My life is a never ending black pit of despair. A little voice inside my head telling me to run away from it. Telling me that the only thing worth living for is music. Music makes my life worth living for. Why do I exist when no one even pays any attention to me? Why am I the one that nobody listens to or cares about? The only people who seem to notice me are... S.,Li.,and Ty.. Why did my best friend leave me without any warning and disappear off the face of the planet? Why do I think about killing myself just to get away from it? Do I cry myself to sleep every night? Yes. Have I put a knife up to my neck before? Yes. If anyone actually cares about me,please tell me. Tell me that I belong here on this Earth. That I actually have a purpose,except ruining everyone's lives. I only have a short time left on this Earth before something drastic happens.=====
first- the friend leaving she speaks of was took out of school for being sick for 3 weeks and then never returned and the school said the family moved, my daughter is aware of this but still feels lonely by the girl leaving even though I believe the girl had no choice in the matter.
I spoke to her in a round about way about some things she said in the above writing but did not bring it up directly as I think she blocked my seeing it on Facebook since my neice pointed it out to me that she had wrote it. I don't want her to feel I am spying on her either by forcing any issues.
She is adamant that her feelings of not being liked-cared about- have to do with kids at school as when I named off family that love her she rolled her eyes and said--- I know that I don't mean family---.
I decided that she will not be returning to school next year and to give the school written notice to avoid truancy issues that she will be homeschooling next year as our law requires-
I will let her decide whether to go back to school next year as once I told her she did not have to return she was happy at first but then after thinking on it some she brought up some activities they do at school that she will miss out on. I told her it is up to her.
Her Dad would prefer she stays in school but if her and I decide something he will trust that we are making the right choice and support us...at least so far anyway he says he will and in our years together he has followed willingly in whatever I chose to do.He is very proud of her being a smart good grades kid but fails to see that this last year her grades are flopping around like a fish out of water. I think his fears are valid as it took me a long time to come to terms that she will be okay if she unschools. I still have my doubts if it is the -right- choice but it appears a better choice than her being as unhappy as she is now.
I feel the grades flopping around are only a beginning to a downfall to rebellion and misery for her and a future without joy, a visible measure of things not right in her life. I had my life go downhill starting at that age as well I know very much what she feels like being lonely and feeling ostracized--even if she does not see that I do, i am--old-- according to her- so I guess being old means I could not understand.
Well,I could go on but I am feeling I have wrote enough for now and there are many things for the people on this list to point out to me that I cannot see for myself. I am good at boxing myself in and not seeing other choices but feeling lots of have to's.
So I guess I need feedback on her writing and some ideas to help me figure out whatever it may be I need to figure out.
Also I have been reading here for a few months and posted a couple times with a different name but could not use that anymore as it was my work email and not appropriate for this list or work as I did not know the email would show up when posting when i signed up originally. and have read Sandra's site quite a bit but not completely every link on it. as well as a Dayna Martin Book and some other blogs and articles.
I have been working on saying yes more and no less and other ideas I got from this list and it's resources.
sheeboo2
If school is causing her this much misery, why are you not pulling her out tomorrow? It sounds like she needs lots of special time with people who love her, now. Not a month from now.
Brie
Brie
Lyla Wolfenstein
i agree. please take her out of school as soon as possible! there are no
laws in the U.S. that require home schooling to only start at the beginning
of an academic year. have you looked into unschooling groups locally?
there may be activities you can replace the school activities she likes
with...
the longer she is in school feeling this way, the more damage you will have
to undo.
i speak from experience - my kids left school at 9.5 and 13.
laws in the U.S. that require home schooling to only start at the beginning
of an academic year. have you looked into unschooling groups locally?
there may be activities you can replace the school activities she likes
with...
the longer she is in school feeling this way, the more damage you will have
to undo.
i speak from experience - my kids left school at 9.5 and 13.
On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 1:01 PM, sheeboo2 <brmino@...> wrote:
> **
>
>
> If school is causing her this much misery, why are you not pulling her out
> tomorrow? It sounds like she needs lots of special time with people who
> love her, now. Not a month from now.
>
> Brie
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
sheeboo2
---there are no laws in the U.S. that require home schooling to only start at the beginning
of an academic year.----
Right. Here's a link to each state's laws and local home-ed organizations:
http://www.nhen.org/state-pages/state_homeschooling_information_2.html
and here too:
http://homeschooling.gomilpitas.com/directory/Legalities.htm
The links on the far left-hand side will take you to the actual laws for your state.
Sandra has links for local/state-specific unschooling groups here:
http://sandradodd.com/world
Brie
of an academic year.----
Right. Here's a link to each state's laws and local home-ed organizations:
http://www.nhen.org/state-pages/state_homeschooling_information_2.html
and here too:
http://homeschooling.gomilpitas.com/directory/Legalities.htm
The links on the far left-hand side will take you to the actual laws for your state.
Sandra has links for local/state-specific unschooling groups here:
http://sandradodd.com/world
Brie
Sandra Dodd
Instead of just bringing her home, if you can at all afford to do this, GO somewhere. Get the family to another town, another place--camping, or to an amusement park, or something. Not to see relatives. Something exciting and memorable and picturesque. Take photos.
If she had a deadly disease or a serious injury, you would call an ambulance, or take her to the hospital.
If you think she is in mortal danger, treat it like a big deal.
If she leaves school and "just" goes home, that will seem wrong to her, like ditching school. If she can tell her friends, and her teacher "We're going to... [wherever]," that's different.
Even if you need to borrow money to do it, it might be worth going to another town, get a motel room, see a concert or play or aquarium or something. Don't be at all schoolish about it. Don't say a thing that makes it seems like an educational field trip. Just go for fun.
Sandra
If she had a deadly disease or a serious injury, you would call an ambulance, or take her to the hospital.
If you think she is in mortal danger, treat it like a big deal.
If she leaves school and "just" goes home, that will seem wrong to her, like ditching school. If she can tell her friends, and her teacher "We're going to... [wherever]," that's different.
Even if you need to borrow money to do it, it might be worth going to another town, get a motel room, see a concert or play or aquarium or something. Don't be at all schoolish about it. Don't say a thing that makes it seems like an educational field trip. Just go for fun.
Sandra
Karen
The daughter said:
Karen.
>>>>Music makes my life worth living for.<<<<Sandra said:
>>>>> Instead of just bringing her home, if you can at all afford to do this, GO somewhere. Get the family to another town, another place--camping, or to an amusement park, or something. Not to see relatives. Something exciting and memorable and picturesque. Take photos...Even if you need to borrow money to do it, it might be worth going to another town, get a motel room, see a concert or play or aquarium or something. Don't be at all schoolish about it. Don't say a thing that makes it seems like an educational field trip. Just go for fun.<<<<<Is there a favourite band playing somewhere you could take her to?
Karen.
Lyla Wolfenstein
>i totally agree with this! i took my daughter on a mother-daughter
> >>>
>
> Even if you need to borrow money to do it, it might be worth going to
> another town, get a motel room, see a concert or play or aquarium or
> something. Don't be at all schoolish about it. Don't say a thing that makes
> it seems like an educational field trip. Just go for fun.
>
> Sandra>>>
>
horseback camping group trip in the wilderness. and to a la leche league
conference with friends, to an unschooling conference, out of town. and to
the coast with one special friend. some of those things were before she
decided to unschool, and some after, they all contributed to her easy
transition and embracing of unschooling (it was her idea).
but even if your 11 year old wasn't unschooling/doesn't want to, if she's
that unhappy, some time away, together, doing something special, connected,
focused away from peers and rejection and school, could be invaluable.
lyla
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
janedonnelly402
For those asking why she is finishing the year, she wants to, they have a class trip coming up and she wants to go on the trip.
Gen
I don't have much unschooling experience, but I'm concerned that none of the previous responses have addressed the suicide threat/ previous practice (I've had a knife to my throat). School may be the source of the problem and removing her may fix it, but I wonder if that sufficiently addresses the problem here. I don't have ideas about how to handle suicidal thoughts from an unschooling perspective. Any suggestions?
Gen
Gen
On May 16, 2012, at 3:08 AM, "janedonnelly402" <janedonnelly402@...> wrote:
>
> For those asking why she is finishing the year, she wants to, they have a class trip coming up and she wants to go on the trip.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Alex
A nonunschooling homeschooling friend's daughter around that age was struggling with depression recently. She got her to therapy, and also started her on potato snacks every evening after I told her how helpful the book Potatoes Not Prozac had been for me. One or both of those things together really worked. The idea is that a simple carb eaten plain or with anything but protein, before sleep, and at least 3 hours after the last protein, gives an enormous seratonin boost. The result is vivid dreams and feeling more positive in the morning. It worked magic for me. It's supposed to be effective for anyone who likes sweets.
Could you offer french fries or tater tots? Maybe with a special sauce, if she's into that? Mashed potatoes? Make an extra fast food run as a late night treat? Most kids would like that.
My limited experience with therapy from several people through Kaiser who were not homeschoolers was that they did not get it, and it was annoying, and a waste of my time. However, in your position I would look very hard for options that I could sell, or books I could leave lying around. Maybe even buying the Teenage Liberation Handbook and leaving it out somewhere would help. This sounds like a kid who could permanently damage herself without intervention. Writing that you've had a knife in your hand is a cry for help. Maybe you could talk to someone else who would have seen it, and ask if they want to present the option you've found as something that would help. I know there's a homeschool mom named Michelle Barone who leans towards unschooling, is a licensed marriage and family therapist, and does phone counseling. Getting counseling for yourself could help her. I know that's what you're doing here, and it's a good place to do it. Just trying to throw out other options.
Hope that helps-
Alex
mama to Katya
Could you offer french fries or tater tots? Maybe with a special sauce, if she's into that? Mashed potatoes? Make an extra fast food run as a late night treat? Most kids would like that.
My limited experience with therapy from several people through Kaiser who were not homeschoolers was that they did not get it, and it was annoying, and a waste of my time. However, in your position I would look very hard for options that I could sell, or books I could leave lying around. Maybe even buying the Teenage Liberation Handbook and leaving it out somewhere would help. This sounds like a kid who could permanently damage herself without intervention. Writing that you've had a knife in your hand is a cry for help. Maybe you could talk to someone else who would have seen it, and ask if they want to present the option you've found as something that would help. I know there's a homeschool mom named Michelle Barone who leans towards unschooling, is a licensed marriage and family therapist, and does phone counseling. Getting counseling for yourself could help her. I know that's what you're doing here, and it's a good place to do it. Just trying to throw out other options.
Hope that helps-
Alex
mama to Katya
Meredith
"janedonnelly402" <janedonnelly402@...> wrote:
Check and see how many "sick days" she has left and use them up. Also check and see what the local regulations are if she takes "too many" sick days. Can you use up all her available days and Then pull her out?
Also, what is the class going to do/see? Can you take her, yourself, or something just as fun and exciting so there's nothing for her to miss?
---Meredith
> For those asking why she is finishing the year, she wants to, they have a class trip coming up and she wants to go on the trip.****************
Check and see how many "sick days" she has left and use them up. Also check and see what the local regulations are if she takes "too many" sick days. Can you use up all her available days and Then pull her out?
Also, what is the class going to do/see? Can you take her, yourself, or something just as fun and exciting so there's nothing for her to miss?
---Meredith
Meredith
Gen <genealogy92109@...> wrote:
In order to talk about the issue, mom and daughter are going to need to build up a bit of trust and communication - right now, mom's not even supposed to know about the Facebook post. Doing things that allow mom and daughter to spend time together, getting to know each other all over again in low-stress ways (deschooling) is a good way to start doing that.
When my stepson, Ray left school, at 13, he wasn't suicidal, but he had pulled a knife on his mom's boyfriend and there were concerns he was homicidal. We didn't "address the issue" in any direct ways. We did fun things, lavished him with love and care, and did everything we could to help him feel loved and valued. He was concerned about missing friends and social stuff at school, too, at first, but after a few months at home, he didn't have much left in common with those kids. They were all unhappy and frustrated with school and parents and he wasn't any more.
---Meredith
>******************
> I don't have much unschooling experience, but I'm concerned that none of the previous responses have addressed the suicide threat/ previous practice (I've had a knife to my throat). School may be the source of the problem and removing her may fix it, but I wonder if that sufficiently addresses the problem here.
In order to talk about the issue, mom and daughter are going to need to build up a bit of trust and communication - right now, mom's not even supposed to know about the Facebook post. Doing things that allow mom and daughter to spend time together, getting to know each other all over again in low-stress ways (deschooling) is a good way to start doing that.
When my stepson, Ray left school, at 13, he wasn't suicidal, but he had pulled a knife on his mom's boyfriend and there were concerns he was homicidal. We didn't "address the issue" in any direct ways. We did fun things, lavished him with love and care, and did everything we could to help him feel loved and valued. He was concerned about missing friends and social stuff at school, too, at first, but after a few months at home, he didn't have much left in common with those kids. They were all unhappy and frustrated with school and parents and he wasn't any more.
---Meredith
Sandra Dodd
-=-I don't have ideas about how to handle suicidal thoughts from an unschooling perspective. Any suggestions?-=-
The mom spied on the girl; the girl didn't share that with her mom.
School causes drama. If the girl has the option to come home and chooses to stay to go on the school trip, that's already WAY more choice and freedom than anyone else in her class has, I guess.
Being in school by choice (knowing the parents are willing to let her come home) is liberating all by itself.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
The mom spied on the girl; the girl didn't share that with her mom.
School causes drama. If the girl has the option to come home and chooses to stay to go on the school trip, that's already WAY more choice and freedom than anyone else in her class has, I guess.
Being in school by choice (knowing the parents are willing to let her come home) is liberating all by itself.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
I think the best local drive-through french fries (even better, if you're in the UK: chips!) would be medicinal and healing for anyone. Anyone who wants to bring me fried potatoes at night would be welcomed and thanked.
dezignarob
This little girl is barely 11 and is in danger of suicide. I'm going to be firm.
I know she says it is not family, and rolls her eyes.
I don't believe it. Your barely 11 year old is crying herself to sleep at night and you are not sitting beside her on the bed stroking her back. You had to find this out from a facebook post.
Do you really believe it is people at school who are telling her she is "ruining everyone's lives"? This strikes me as an idea that she could have absorbed over time from the actions of people around her, including her family.
People/things at school may be exacerbating her problems, even being their immediate source, but she is feeling disconnected from her family if she believes "no-one" notices her.
It's like how you catch a cold because you are exposed to the virus in the environment. You won't have symptoms until the virus reaches a certain load. But how seriously you are affected, even how quickly you get to the virus load, depends on your immune strength. Her family should be her immune strength, in this analogy, but I don't think it is.
It is perfectly possible to know intellectually (expressed through eye rolling) that your family loves you - without feeling understood, validated or empowered by that love. Even your diffidence - speaking in a "round about" way - could be felt by her as not being noticed. I wonder if she feels compelled to protect your feelings by reassuring you that it is not you, it's them.
You say you don't want to force any issues - but maybe this is a time when an issue, or at least a discussion, should be kinda forced. She is not a long-time-unschooled child, with the deep layers of trust and connection already built through constant contact and mindful parenting. It might be that she needs some more tangible demonstration of your deep interest in her.
It might be good to discuss the actual content of the post - ask questions but bite your tongue if you have to and don't give advice or suggestions (that she could easily see as judgement). Express that you were worried, but absolutely calmly, without panic. Don't make her have to protect your feelings by being too emotional. Be doing something physical and light while you talk so that you aren't both sitting at a table staring at each other. I had a great talk about a difficult situation with Jayn once when we were both rock hopping in a park. She was younger then, but the idea applies.
Here's something awesome about that idea: http://sandradodd.com/truck
In the case of this girl, feeling powerless, hopeless and disconnected, you really must engage her interest in being home. She has to believe that she is going to something better than school (for all it's problems). She also may need to believe that she will be able to keep close to those friends she mentions positively.
School might be awful, but it is also familiar - hence her concern over the activities. That is part of why people are suggesting going on a trip or outings at once. Can you take a trip to see her friend that she is missing? Can you set up a Skype account today so that they can talk?
Once she is home, and the big, overpowering, overshadowing problems caused by school are relieved, then any problems caused by feeling disconnected to her family - lack of trust, lack of validation - these could well become visible. It could start looking like returning to school is the answer.
Can you immerse yourself in unschooling, and making her life rich, full and purposeful, while you are working outside of the home?
If not you, who?
If you want unschooling to be successful, rich and joyous you will have to (and I use this phrase intentionally) let go of your attachment to her grades. If she has been valued in the past because of good grades, then her grades "flopping" are feeding in to her feelings of low self-worth. It becomes a vicious cycle, where her bad grades are both a symptom of her anxiety and a cause of more. Anyone talking about how her grades used to be good, and how important good grades are to a happy life, is just adding to the pressure.
Now I'm going to say something about intention, cognitive dissonance and the unsaid.
Children absorb our beliefs and fears about them even when those feelings are unsaid.
My mother never told me I was lazy in so many words, yet I know she had a subconscious belief that I was lazy (implanted in her mind by doctors when I was an infant) that I also internalized. I continued to believe myself lazy despite the enormous evidence to the contrary.
Bringing these shadowy beliefs into the light of unschooling principles is very important to healing, and to being able to unschool thoughtfully without knee-jerk reactions and old tapes running in our heads.
You have tapes running in your head about your own unhappy school experiences as a tween. Are you subconsciously sending her messages about how like you she is? Does this create a sense of inevitability?
Your daughter has tapes running in her head. Some of them might be to do with letting everyone down because her grades are slipping. You can say "they don't matter" or "it will be alright" all you like, but if in your secret heart you still believe that good grades are the best path to adult happiness and success, she will still absorb that message by osmosis. Better to be honest and upfront about your concerns, and the reading and thinking that you are doing to address them.
Here's a story of hope. There was a family who came to conferences a few years ago. The daughter was an older teen, 16 I think, who like your daughter was deeply interested in music.
The tragedy of this family was that they had been conventional, typical, schooling and grades driven parents. Their older daughter had committed suicide in high school.
They could see their younger daughter slipping away from them too. So they took the step to turn away 180 degrees from their old life, and became radical unschoolers, doing what ever it took to immerse themselves in their daughter's life, supporting her love of music and singing, and going to a lot of conferences.
I will never forget this beautiful teenager, with an awesome bluesy voice, at the talent show singing a really raunchy, womanly song (some might judge as "inappropriate" for a 16yo), singing it very well, accompanied on the guitar... by her dad.
Please examine your emotional reactions to our suggestions and ideas. If anything I or anyone else wrote brings up feelings of defensiveness, that's good. That is a really useful sign that here is where some truth lies. It has always been that way for me.
This whole thing really worries me. When I think of Jayn barely 11, we had struggles together, but she never went to sleep without me being nearby. She never cried alone.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.robyncoburn.blogspot.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com
I know she says it is not family, and rolls her eyes.
I don't believe it. Your barely 11 year old is crying herself to sleep at night and you are not sitting beside her on the bed stroking her back. You had to find this out from a facebook post.
Do you really believe it is people at school who are telling her she is "ruining everyone's lives"? This strikes me as an idea that she could have absorbed over time from the actions of people around her, including her family.
People/things at school may be exacerbating her problems, even being their immediate source, but she is feeling disconnected from her family if she believes "no-one" notices her.
It's like how you catch a cold because you are exposed to the virus in the environment. You won't have symptoms until the virus reaches a certain load. But how seriously you are affected, even how quickly you get to the virus load, depends on your immune strength. Her family should be her immune strength, in this analogy, but I don't think it is.
It is perfectly possible to know intellectually (expressed through eye rolling) that your family loves you - without feeling understood, validated or empowered by that love. Even your diffidence - speaking in a "round about" way - could be felt by her as not being noticed. I wonder if she feels compelled to protect your feelings by reassuring you that it is not you, it's them.
You say you don't want to force any issues - but maybe this is a time when an issue, or at least a discussion, should be kinda forced. She is not a long-time-unschooled child, with the deep layers of trust and connection already built through constant contact and mindful parenting. It might be that she needs some more tangible demonstration of your deep interest in her.
It might be good to discuss the actual content of the post - ask questions but bite your tongue if you have to and don't give advice or suggestions (that she could easily see as judgement). Express that you were worried, but absolutely calmly, without panic. Don't make her have to protect your feelings by being too emotional. Be doing something physical and light while you talk so that you aren't both sitting at a table staring at each other. I had a great talk about a difficult situation with Jayn once when we were both rock hopping in a park. She was younger then, but the idea applies.
Here's something awesome about that idea: http://sandradodd.com/truck
In the case of this girl, feeling powerless, hopeless and disconnected, you really must engage her interest in being home. She has to believe that she is going to something better than school (for all it's problems). She also may need to believe that she will be able to keep close to those friends she mentions positively.
School might be awful, but it is also familiar - hence her concern over the activities. That is part of why people are suggesting going on a trip or outings at once. Can you take a trip to see her friend that she is missing? Can you set up a Skype account today so that they can talk?
Once she is home, and the big, overpowering, overshadowing problems caused by school are relieved, then any problems caused by feeling disconnected to her family - lack of trust, lack of validation - these could well become visible. It could start looking like returning to school is the answer.
Can you immerse yourself in unschooling, and making her life rich, full and purposeful, while you are working outside of the home?
If not you, who?
If you want unschooling to be successful, rich and joyous you will have to (and I use this phrase intentionally) let go of your attachment to her grades. If she has been valued in the past because of good grades, then her grades "flopping" are feeding in to her feelings of low self-worth. It becomes a vicious cycle, where her bad grades are both a symptom of her anxiety and a cause of more. Anyone talking about how her grades used to be good, and how important good grades are to a happy life, is just adding to the pressure.
Now I'm going to say something about intention, cognitive dissonance and the unsaid.
Children absorb our beliefs and fears about them even when those feelings are unsaid.
My mother never told me I was lazy in so many words, yet I know she had a subconscious belief that I was lazy (implanted in her mind by doctors when I was an infant) that I also internalized. I continued to believe myself lazy despite the enormous evidence to the contrary.
Bringing these shadowy beliefs into the light of unschooling principles is very important to healing, and to being able to unschool thoughtfully without knee-jerk reactions and old tapes running in our heads.
You have tapes running in your head about your own unhappy school experiences as a tween. Are you subconsciously sending her messages about how like you she is? Does this create a sense of inevitability?
Your daughter has tapes running in her head. Some of them might be to do with letting everyone down because her grades are slipping. You can say "they don't matter" or "it will be alright" all you like, but if in your secret heart you still believe that good grades are the best path to adult happiness and success, she will still absorb that message by osmosis. Better to be honest and upfront about your concerns, and the reading and thinking that you are doing to address them.
Here's a story of hope. There was a family who came to conferences a few years ago. The daughter was an older teen, 16 I think, who like your daughter was deeply interested in music.
The tragedy of this family was that they had been conventional, typical, schooling and grades driven parents. Their older daughter had committed suicide in high school.
They could see their younger daughter slipping away from them too. So they took the step to turn away 180 degrees from their old life, and became radical unschoolers, doing what ever it took to immerse themselves in their daughter's life, supporting her love of music and singing, and going to a lot of conferences.
I will never forget this beautiful teenager, with an awesome bluesy voice, at the talent show singing a really raunchy, womanly song (some might judge as "inappropriate" for a 16yo), singing it very well, accompanied on the guitar... by her dad.
Please examine your emotional reactions to our suggestions and ideas. If anything I or anyone else wrote brings up feelings of defensiveness, that's good. That is a really useful sign that here is where some truth lies. It has always been that way for me.
This whole thing really worries me. When I think of Jayn barely 11, we had struggles together, but she never went to sleep without me being nearby. She never cried alone.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.robyncoburn.blogspot.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com
Pam Sorooshian
On Wed, May 16, 2012 at 12:49 PM, dezignarob <dezignarob@...> wrote:
kind of trusting relationship with her family. And that level of depression
might be directly attributable to school issues, but only if the family
connections are not supportive enough for her to fall back on and rely on.
I don't see any reason to even bring up the facebook post. It could derail
the conversation that needs to happen. A mom would notice a kid who is THAT
depressed - there must be a lot of stuff to base a conversation on.
Mom could simply say, "Let's talk. You seem really sad." Take it from there.
I also want to emphasize NOT making her feel like she has to protect you
from her awful and terribly strong feelings. Be strong and calm!! No matter
how panicked you feel inside, demonstrate confidence that, together, you'll
get through this and probably the MOST important thing, act confident that
things will be better - that she WILL be happy.
-pam
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> It might be good to discuss the actual content of the post - ask questionsI agree about doing something - she's not an unschooler with that special
> but bite your tongue if you have to and don't give advice or suggestions
> (that she could easily see as judgement). Express that you were worried,
> but absolutely calmly, without panic.
kind of trusting relationship with her family. And that level of depression
might be directly attributable to school issues, but only if the family
connections are not supportive enough for her to fall back on and rely on.
I don't see any reason to even bring up the facebook post. It could derail
the conversation that needs to happen. A mom would notice a kid who is THAT
depressed - there must be a lot of stuff to base a conversation on.
Mom could simply say, "Let's talk. You seem really sad." Take it from there.
I also want to emphasize NOT making her feel like she has to protect you
from her awful and terribly strong feelings. Be strong and calm!! No matter
how panicked you feel inside, demonstrate confidence that, together, you'll
get through this and probably the MOST important thing, act confident that
things will be better - that she WILL be happy.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Your barely 11 year old is crying herself to sleep at night and you are not sitting beside her on the bed stroking her back. You had to find this out from a facebook post.-=-
Sometimes parents over-react, though.
And just because a girl write dramatically about crying herself to sleep doesn't mean she actually, literally did so (or maybe not more than once).
There is a shared young-girl angst that expresses itself through depressing poetry and music and deep sighs that can be fed and deepened by other girls doing the same thing. It can be a contagious faux-depression that's considered cool in groups of young girls. I taught 7th grade--12 and 13 year old girls. As a distraction from the school environment, and partly as a result of it, they sometimes seemed to Love drama, trauma and tragedy.
I think being casual but attentive is better than treating it like an emergency.
Sandra
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Sometimes parents over-react, though.
And just because a girl write dramatically about crying herself to sleep doesn't mean she actually, literally did so (or maybe not more than once).
There is a shared young-girl angst that expresses itself through depressing poetry and music and deep sighs that can be fed and deepened by other girls doing the same thing. It can be a contagious faux-depression that's considered cool in groups of young girls. I taught 7th grade--12 and 13 year old girls. As a distraction from the school environment, and partly as a result of it, they sometimes seemed to Love drama, trauma and tragedy.
I think being casual but attentive is better than treating it like an emergency.
Sandra
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Sandra Dodd
Instead of thinking of how to make her life different or perfect (not that you were, but just in case), think of how to make a moment better, less stressful, more comfortable.
Living in the moment is good.
http://sandradodd.com/moment
Sandra
Living in the moment is good.
http://sandradodd.com/moment
Sandra
sheeboo2
-----Sometimes parents over-react, though.
And just because a girl write dramatically about crying herself to sleep doesn't
mean she actually, literally did so (or maybe not more than once).
There is a shared young-girl angst that expresses itself through depressing
poetry and music and deep sighs that can be fed and deepened by other girls
doing the same thing. It can be a contagious faux-depression that's considered
cool in groups of young girls. --------
I remember those days from my own teen years well. Sometimes it seems there was a competition between the girls I knew over who could be the most fucked up and distressed.
When the message initially came through, it reminded me of an article I'd read not long ago, which I'll link to below. I hesitated in posting it because I didn't want mom to think her daughter's distress wasn't real, because I'm sure it is, but I do think that some emotions shared openly, online (especially?), are often spur of the moment angst rather than deep suicidal pleas for help.
"Cracking Teenagers' Online Codes"
http://tinyurl.com/85g7bzp
Brie
And just because a girl write dramatically about crying herself to sleep doesn't
mean she actually, literally did so (or maybe not more than once).
There is a shared young-girl angst that expresses itself through depressing
poetry and music and deep sighs that can be fed and deepened by other girls
doing the same thing. It can be a contagious faux-depression that's considered
cool in groups of young girls. --------
I remember those days from my own teen years well. Sometimes it seems there was a competition between the girls I knew over who could be the most fucked up and distressed.
When the message initially came through, it reminded me of an article I'd read not long ago, which I'll link to below. I hesitated in posting it because I didn't want mom to think her daughter's distress wasn't real, because I'm sure it is, but I do think that some emotions shared openly, online (especially?), are often spur of the moment angst rather than deep suicidal pleas for help.
"Cracking Teenagers' Online Codes"
http://tinyurl.com/85g7bzp
Brie
Jenny Cyphers
***School may be the source of the problem and removing her may fix it, but I wonder if that sufficiently addresses the problem here. I don't have ideas about how to handle suicidal thoughts from an unschooling perspective. Any suggestions?***
Even if the kid in question decides to stay in school and even if that kid never talks to their parents about the issue, the one thing I know for certain is that the parents can still make a difference.
The parents can do everything in their power right here and now to make that child's life more calm and happy by doing nice things. I know a school kid who recently killed themselves. By all external measures her parents were "good" parents. What I saw as an outsider looking in was a house full of rules and expectations. There were so many rules and expectations that there was no room for deviation, as the kid, to navigate the pain and personal suffering she was experiencing. What I know of human behavior is that too many rules and expectations can cause people to shut down. What is the point of it all if you have zero choice about what you eat, when you go to bed, how you dress, what you do with your free time, whether or not you do your homework, or even go to school at all, or church, or other social obligations created by the parents? For some kids, if they are deeply hurting, jumping that hurdle seems insurmountable. They won't share
with the very people that are there to help them, their parents, because of that dynamic.
So, the little things a parent can do might be to keep their mouth shut about a child's clothing choice in the morning, take the time to make a nice breakfast, offer to drive the kid to school instead of walking or taking the bus, don't do homework reminders, don't nag about bed times or chores. All that stuff is meaningless if your child is dead. Take as much pressure off the kid and do whatever kind thing you can think of when they are around. Offer food and rest. Make the nest more comfortable and relaxing. How can those things hurt?
School is only one aspect of pain and upset for a kid who is suicidal, it's never just that.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Even if the kid in question decides to stay in school and even if that kid never talks to their parents about the issue, the one thing I know for certain is that the parents can still make a difference.
The parents can do everything in their power right here and now to make that child's life more calm and happy by doing nice things. I know a school kid who recently killed themselves. By all external measures her parents were "good" parents. What I saw as an outsider looking in was a house full of rules and expectations. There were so many rules and expectations that there was no room for deviation, as the kid, to navigate the pain and personal suffering she was experiencing. What I know of human behavior is that too many rules and expectations can cause people to shut down. What is the point of it all if you have zero choice about what you eat, when you go to bed, how you dress, what you do with your free time, whether or not you do your homework, or even go to school at all, or church, or other social obligations created by the parents? For some kids, if they are deeply hurting, jumping that hurdle seems insurmountable. They won't share
with the very people that are there to help them, their parents, because of that dynamic.
So, the little things a parent can do might be to keep their mouth shut about a child's clothing choice in the morning, take the time to make a nice breakfast, offer to drive the kid to school instead of walking or taking the bus, don't do homework reminders, don't nag about bed times or chores. All that stuff is meaningless if your child is dead. Take as much pressure off the kid and do whatever kind thing you can think of when they are around. Offer food and rest. Make the nest more comfortable and relaxing. How can those things hurt?
School is only one aspect of pain and upset for a kid who is suicidal, it's never just that.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
***For those asking why she is finishing the year, she wants to, they have a class trip coming up and she wants to go on the trip.***
School field trips are lots of hype for usually something pretty basic. The kids get excited because the field trip is often built up to be a BIG freaky deal after the drudgery of the in and out of school each day. The kids around here go to end of year field trips to places like the zoo or the science museum or the local amusement park. ALL of those places are places that my kids go to often enough throughout the year that it isn't a big deal at all.
When we end up at places like that during field trips, there is chaos and rude children running around being chased by teachers and parent helpers. You could show up at the designated field trip location at the same time as the school group and just happen to be there while they are and hang out with them. Then your daughter wouldn't need to stay in school to go on the trip. She could party crash. Other than getting on and off the bus, she'd get to experience the whole thing with her friends.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
School field trips are lots of hype for usually something pretty basic. The kids get excited because the field trip is often built up to be a BIG freaky deal after the drudgery of the in and out of school each day. The kids around here go to end of year field trips to places like the zoo or the science museum or the local amusement park. ALL of those places are places that my kids go to often enough throughout the year that it isn't a big deal at all.
When we end up at places like that during field trips, there is chaos and rude children running around being chased by teachers and parent helpers. You could show up at the designated field trip location at the same time as the school group and just happen to be there while they are and hang out with them. Then your daughter wouldn't need to stay in school to go on the trip. She could party crash. Other than getting on and off the bus, she'd get to experience the whole thing with her friends.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
***I think being casual but attentive is better than treating it like an emergency.***
Oh YES totally! A cry for attention is simply that. Give the kid some great positive attention, with or without school in the picture. Take her out for icecream after school JUST BECAUSE! Do nice things, little things, everyday things. Write little notes with smiley faces that she'll find in her lunch bag.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Oh YES totally! A cry for attention is simply that. Give the kid some great positive attention, with or without school in the picture. Take her out for icecream after school JUST BECAUSE! Do nice things, little things, everyday things. Write little notes with smiley faces that she'll find in her lunch bag.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
JustSayin
--- In [email protected], "dezignarob" <dezignarob@...> wrote:
Maybe she's checking out what happens if she doesn't get good grades any more. Does she get more attention? Good grades can be really boring, no one "notices" you when you're toeing the line and getting good grades. Or maybe now someone says "wow, you've always gotten good grades and now you don't, what's wrong with you?" which may get her the attention she thought she wanted, but then she thinks well maybe I'm not smart any more (which is of course ridiculous), so it's really not the attention she needed/wanted after all.
Or she may be thinking I'm the same person whether I have good grades or not, and maybe she is wondering why "no one" can see that.
Think back to those times in girlhood for you - what would you have wanted if someone cared enough to give it to you? It is great that taking a a break from school is an option for her. Maybe just kind of be around, talking casually about stuff that maybe interests her or some interest you have in common. Maybe you or someone you know could help her find a place where she can explore her passion for music; maybe a music store, getting her an ipod and/or an itunes gift card, guitar lessons or help starting up a band, etc., even if, once found, she wants to mess around with it by herself.
Also not to diminish your daughter's words at all, but my boys sometimes skype with young teenage girls, and they are FULL of drama. They love to tell dramatic stories (especially to my rather gullible fellas ;>) because they get quite a reaction. They talk/text/post about being "emo" and stuff like that (I had to look it up). Unfortunately I think it's just a cool cultural thing to do these days. It is unfortunate because I honestly don't know how to tell the difference between a real cry for help and someone just getting attention that way. So I do think it has to be treated seriously just in case.
But building a connection with your daughter is important - don't be desperate and give her the impression that there is something wrong with her or wrong with what she is feeling/experiencing, but be as available to her as you can be without being in her face.
--Melissa
>If she has been valued in the past because of good grades, then her grades "flopping" are feeding in to her feelings of low self-worth. It becomes a vicious cycle,where her bad grades are both a symptom of her anxiety and a cause of more. Anyone talking about how her grades used to be good, and how important good grades are to a happy life, is just adding to the pressure.<11 is pretty young for all of this IMO, but maybe she is challenging the idea that her good grades are an indicator of her worth as a person.
Maybe she's checking out what happens if she doesn't get good grades any more. Does she get more attention? Good grades can be really boring, no one "notices" you when you're toeing the line and getting good grades. Or maybe now someone says "wow, you've always gotten good grades and now you don't, what's wrong with you?" which may get her the attention she thought she wanted, but then she thinks well maybe I'm not smart any more (which is of course ridiculous), so it's really not the attention she needed/wanted after all.
Or she may be thinking I'm the same person whether I have good grades or not, and maybe she is wondering why "no one" can see that.
Think back to those times in girlhood for you - what would you have wanted if someone cared enough to give it to you? It is great that taking a a break from school is an option for her. Maybe just kind of be around, talking casually about stuff that maybe interests her or some interest you have in common. Maybe you or someone you know could help her find a place where she can explore her passion for music; maybe a music store, getting her an ipod and/or an itunes gift card, guitar lessons or help starting up a band, etc., even if, once found, she wants to mess around with it by herself.
Also not to diminish your daughter's words at all, but my boys sometimes skype with young teenage girls, and they are FULL of drama. They love to tell dramatic stories (especially to my rather gullible fellas ;>) because they get quite a reaction. They talk/text/post about being "emo" and stuff like that (I had to look it up). Unfortunately I think it's just a cool cultural thing to do these days. It is unfortunate because I honestly don't know how to tell the difference between a real cry for help and someone just getting attention that way. So I do think it has to be treated seriously just in case.
But building a connection with your daughter is important - don't be desperate and give her the impression that there is something wrong with her or wrong with what she is feeling/experiencing, but be as available to her as you can be without being in her face.
--Melissa
Jenny Cyphers
***Unfortunately I think it's just a cool cultural thing to do these days. It is unfortunate because I honestly don't know how to tell the difference between a real cry for help and someone just getting attention that way. So I do think it has to be treated seriously just in case.***
The test for me is whether or not you can change the conversation! If you can, then it's likely a drama storm of sorts. If you can't steer the conversation away from awful angsty stuff, there may be something deeper. I've told people on occasion, when I think it's true, that they are full of sh**. It's all contextual!
Online, there is great potential for humorous diffusion of angsty yuckiness! I remember when Chamille was younger and running into this kind of thing! She's really good at telling the difference between real and drama attention seeking stuff. A lot of times there is a little bit of both. Her best skills were listening and then humor. She still uses those things!
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The test for me is whether or not you can change the conversation! If you can, then it's likely a drama storm of sorts. If you can't steer the conversation away from awful angsty stuff, there may be something deeper. I've told people on occasion, when I think it's true, that they are full of sh**. It's all contextual!
Online, there is great potential for humorous diffusion of angsty yuckiness! I remember when Chamille was younger and running into this kind of thing! She's really good at telling the difference between real and drama attention seeking stuff. A lot of times there is a little bit of both. Her best skills were listening and then humor. She still uses those things!
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Joyce Fetteroll
> And just because a girl write dramatically about crying herself to sleep doesn'tPam brought up the point a bit ago of people writing to express the emotion of what they're experiencing rather than the factual reality. Even if she's never cried herself to sleep, writing it as she did may capture the intensity of what she's feeling.
> mean she actually, literally did so (or maybe not more than once).
It's very common of schooled kids to hide what they're going through emotionally from their family because of the disconnect school causes. Sharing would mean bringing parents up to speed on complex relationships and situations. And then potentially having their feelings and thoughts judged or dismissed.
It's important that she feels she can trust you with whatever she tells you. It will take conscious effort to listen without disagreeing with her. You don't need to agree that what she says is truth, but accept that it's what she's experiencing.
Joyce
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