Youtube ...?
[email protected]
Hi,
I am interested in opening a discussion about 'youTube'.
My girls are 5 and 9 years old. They (and I) have become obsessed with Harry
Potter for around 12 months now. We love reading the books and watching the
movies together.
My eldest also enjoys scouring youTube for favorite scenes, particularly ones
involving the developing love relationships between the characters. She became
fascinated with watching link after link of creations and spoofs inspired by Harry
Potter - particularly seeking out links that are funny, musical, romantic or
comedic skits. This has been a very rich and exciting experience for them both as
they watch together, however I noticed that some of the video links
were becoming, to my mind, increasingly sordid and cynical, and I consider some
links to be inappropriate for very young children... Hence, I've been pondering
how to address all this.
I find youtube a fascinating phenomenon. It's fun and compelling to explore.
However, I am concerned with the unrestricted, freeflow connections of links in
the youtube format, including ones that my girls may click on without realizing
the content is unsavory or demeaning. And once seen, can't be unseen.
I've had conversations with the girls about my concerns and listened to their
perspectives; and I have decided to encourage them to limit their use of YouTube.
We watch together sometimes and they ask me if certain links are ok...so basically
now I'm censoring their viewing.
I am very interested to learn and read about others' experiences with their
children regarding youtube and open internet searching. A clear unschooling
perspective please. (mine is clouded regarding this issue!) Do parents choose to
sit with their kids and explore together? what about if the kids want to explore
on their own? What about siblings viewing or reading together? Like when a much
younger child loves and insists on watching/reading with an older child? what
about censoring? Can it help learning, or only hinder it?
We have been on our unschooling journey for about 4 years.
Thanks,
Hope
------------------------------------------------------------
This email was sent from Netspace Webmail: http://www.netspace.net.au
I am interested in opening a discussion about 'youTube'.
My girls are 5 and 9 years old. They (and I) have become obsessed with Harry
Potter for around 12 months now. We love reading the books and watching the
movies together.
My eldest also enjoys scouring youTube for favorite scenes, particularly ones
involving the developing love relationships between the characters. She became
fascinated with watching link after link of creations and spoofs inspired by Harry
Potter - particularly seeking out links that are funny, musical, romantic or
comedic skits. This has been a very rich and exciting experience for them both as
they watch together, however I noticed that some of the video links
were becoming, to my mind, increasingly sordid and cynical, and I consider some
links to be inappropriate for very young children... Hence, I've been pondering
how to address all this.
I find youtube a fascinating phenomenon. It's fun and compelling to explore.
However, I am concerned with the unrestricted, freeflow connections of links in
the youtube format, including ones that my girls may click on without realizing
the content is unsavory or demeaning. And once seen, can't be unseen.
I've had conversations with the girls about my concerns and listened to their
perspectives; and I have decided to encourage them to limit their use of YouTube.
We watch together sometimes and they ask me if certain links are ok...so basically
now I'm censoring their viewing.
I am very interested to learn and read about others' experiences with their
children regarding youtube and open internet searching. A clear unschooling
perspective please. (mine is clouded regarding this issue!) Do parents choose to
sit with their kids and explore together? what about if the kids want to explore
on their own? What about siblings viewing or reading together? Like when a much
younger child loves and insists on watching/reading with an older child? what
about censoring? Can it help learning, or only hinder it?
We have been on our unschooling journey for about 4 years.
Thanks,
Hope
------------------------------------------------------------
This email was sent from Netspace Webmail: http://www.netspace.net.au
Sandra Dodd
-=-However, I am concerned with the unrestricted, freeflow connections of links in
the youtube format, including ones that my girls may click on without realizing
the content is unsavory or demeaning. And once seen, can't be unseen.-=-
But unseen, it can seem alluring if you forbid it.
I doubt a young child would watch something "yucky" for any length of time. It's easy enough to pause or close the window.
Your explanation that something is demeaning could be more harmful than a glance at something they don't understand anyway. Sometimes a kid asks what "f-u-c-k" spells, and they get a fifteen minute lecture on the horrors of nasty sex and the horrors of prison-bound juvenile delinquents, instead of being told "'fuck,' but it's not a nice word, so please don't be saying it or writing it." When they're older, a longer explanation might be helpful if they ask. They might ask right then.
-=-What about siblings viewing or reading together? Like when a much
younger child loves and insists on watching/reading with an older child?-=
I'd tell the older child to be careful not to click on thing that might disturb the younger child. That's easy.
-=- what about censoring? Can it help learning, or only hinder it?-=-
It depends. It's not an all of one or all of the other kind of question.
"Censoring" meaning limiting, controling? Or advising and caution?
"Forbidden fruit" is a condition to avoid. If you let them think there is something powerful and scary that they can only look at when they're older, I think they're more likely TO look at that when they're older than a child who never heard any such mysterious and fascinating thing.
If I was watching a movie with sex in it, I would pause it or change the channel if one of my kids walked in. I would do it casually, not with alarm. I've seen them do similar casual "censoring" or tactful moves with and for other people, both younger and older. :-)
I have these links that involve internet (things saved from prior discussions):
http://sandradodd.com/sex
http://sandradodd.com/internet/
On the second one, "online safety" might be interesting, but your girls are very young, and it's more about older kids/teens, I think.
Sandra
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the youtube format, including ones that my girls may click on without realizing
the content is unsavory or demeaning. And once seen, can't be unseen.-=-
But unseen, it can seem alluring if you forbid it.
I doubt a young child would watch something "yucky" for any length of time. It's easy enough to pause or close the window.
Your explanation that something is demeaning could be more harmful than a glance at something they don't understand anyway. Sometimes a kid asks what "f-u-c-k" spells, and they get a fifteen minute lecture on the horrors of nasty sex and the horrors of prison-bound juvenile delinquents, instead of being told "'fuck,' but it's not a nice word, so please don't be saying it or writing it." When they're older, a longer explanation might be helpful if they ask. They might ask right then.
-=-What about siblings viewing or reading together? Like when a much
younger child loves and insists on watching/reading with an older child?-=
I'd tell the older child to be careful not to click on thing that might disturb the younger child. That's easy.
-=- what about censoring? Can it help learning, or only hinder it?-=-
It depends. It's not an all of one or all of the other kind of question.
"Censoring" meaning limiting, controling? Or advising and caution?
"Forbidden fruit" is a condition to avoid. If you let them think there is something powerful and scary that they can only look at when they're older, I think they're more likely TO look at that when they're older than a child who never heard any such mysterious and fascinating thing.
If I was watching a movie with sex in it, I would pause it or change the channel if one of my kids walked in. I would do it casually, not with alarm. I've seen them do similar casual "censoring" or tactful moves with and for other people, both younger and older. :-)
I have these links that involve internet (things saved from prior discussions):
http://sandradodd.com/sex
http://sandradodd.com/internet/
On the second one, "online safety" might be interesting, but your girls are very young, and it's more about older kids/teens, I think.
Sandra
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sheeboo2
I think that with young or sensitive kids, you really need to be with them while they're browsing YouTube. I've never forbidden a click, but when it looks really sketchy, I've watched it first and shared what the content. My daughter *wants* me to do that, because she doesn't want to see certain kinds of things she finds upsetting.
We've watched some pretty raunchy videos too, but we've watched them together. Was I uncomfortable a few times? Absolutely. But my discomfort was worth it. A lot of learning and connections were (still are) made from some things that made me cringe initially.
When Noor was younger (she's 8.5 now) and I wasn't able to sit right next to her while she used YouTube, I set the parental controls. They didn't stay on long, though, because a lot of things Noor wanted to see, like video drawing tutorials, where blocked because of language.
http://www.safesearchkids.com/youtube-parental-controls.html
---However, I am concerned with the unrestricted, freeflow connections of links in
the youtube format, including ones that my girls may click on without realizing
the content is unsavory or demeaning. And once seen, can't be unseen.-----
You're assuming, I think, that information once seen can't be manipulated, chewed on, digested. Your kids aren't absorbing media passively so long as you're aware of what they're watching and willing to talk about it with them as much as they want to.
"Unsavory" and "Demeaning" are judgments (which you're welcome to have, although I'd suggest sharing them in a more balanced and meaningful way if your kids are interested in your opinion), but your kids may find far different things to glom onto in the videos, things you may miss if you're focused on the unsavory and demeaning aspects! They may pick up on those things as well, which I guarantee will lead to rich conversations and deep thought.
---Like when a much younger child loves and insists on watching/reading with an older child? what about censoring? Can it help learning, or only hinder it?----
I'm not sure age is the issue here, but rather what each child wants and can handle. If your younger child is more sensitive, have your older one use YouTube with the safe search when they're together. Stay close regardless!
I don't think it is "censorship" when you're helping your child have an experience in ways that work for them. If there are certain things *your children* are uncomfortable with, helping them avoid those clips is helpful, not hindering. If, however, you've decided what should be uncomfortable for them, that's going to get in the way. A child's curiosity doesn't expire because mom doesn't feel comfortable with the subject matter
Brie
We've watched some pretty raunchy videos too, but we've watched them together. Was I uncomfortable a few times? Absolutely. But my discomfort was worth it. A lot of learning and connections were (still are) made from some things that made me cringe initially.
When Noor was younger (she's 8.5 now) and I wasn't able to sit right next to her while she used YouTube, I set the parental controls. They didn't stay on long, though, because a lot of things Noor wanted to see, like video drawing tutorials, where blocked because of language.
http://www.safesearchkids.com/youtube-parental-controls.html
---However, I am concerned with the unrestricted, freeflow connections of links in
the youtube format, including ones that my girls may click on without realizing
the content is unsavory or demeaning. And once seen, can't be unseen.-----
You're assuming, I think, that information once seen can't be manipulated, chewed on, digested. Your kids aren't absorbing media passively so long as you're aware of what they're watching and willing to talk about it with them as much as they want to.
"Unsavory" and "Demeaning" are judgments (which you're welcome to have, although I'd suggest sharing them in a more balanced and meaningful way if your kids are interested in your opinion), but your kids may find far different things to glom onto in the videos, things you may miss if you're focused on the unsavory and demeaning aspects! They may pick up on those things as well, which I guarantee will lead to rich conversations and deep thought.
---Like when a much younger child loves and insists on watching/reading with an older child? what about censoring? Can it help learning, or only hinder it?----
I'm not sure age is the issue here, but rather what each child wants and can handle. If your younger child is more sensitive, have your older one use YouTube with the safe search when they're together. Stay close regardless!
I don't think it is "censorship" when you're helping your child have an experience in ways that work for them. If there are certain things *your children* are uncomfortable with, helping them avoid those clips is helpful, not hindering. If, however, you've decided what should be uncomfortable for them, that's going to get in the way. A child's curiosity doesn't expire because mom doesn't feel comfortable with the subject matter
Brie
Pam Sorooshian
>>>And once seen, can't be unseen.-=->>Too much fear, I think, in that phrase.
It isn't true that every icky thing they see will traumatize them. And even
memories of really awful things fade over time.
Is there any of this concern coming from them? Have they actually run into
situations that upset them? Or is it concern-in-advance on your part?
-pam
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Meredith
doodah@... wrote:
The same could be said of libraries! Good heavens, there's all sorts of books in them - have you Read any young adult fiction? Much less romance... or non fiction.
When Ray was big-time into Runescape (sort of a precursor to WoW), George and I both played a bit to get a sense of what he was enjoying and be able to talk with him about his new fascination. George played a good while longer than I did, but eventually it was just Ray playing, up late at night. By then, he was pretty good at being able to tell when he didn't want to talk to someone - when that someone was obviously there for reasons other than to play the game. I think he ever reported one or two trolls.
Mo's just starting to explore the wonderful world of youtube - she's 10. She's into all things Ed, Edd and Eddy and has been hunting out everything she can find. She doesn't want diversions into Ed-porn, she wants clear storytelling and decent animation, and she's better than I am at knowing how to find what she wants. I've watched with her a little, but I'm not a giant Eds fan, I keep up to know what she's interested in and be her cheering squad for her Ed-based fan art. Recently she figured out how to create a sort of film-strip of her own drawings and is working on something she hopes to upload to youtube (so that's My next job, figuring out how one does that).
---Meredith
> I am concerned with the unrestricted, freeflow connections of links in**************
> the youtube format, including ones that my girls may click on without realizing
> the content is unsavory or demeaning. And once seen, can't be unseen.
The same could be said of libraries! Good heavens, there's all sorts of books in them - have you Read any young adult fiction? Much less romance... or non fiction.
>I have decided to encourage them to limit their use of YouTube.Do your girls Want to look at amateur fan-porn? At 5 and 9, I'm guessing at most they'd be curious and have some questions - and questions are Good! They give you a chance to talk with your kids. But if they don't really want to look at that sort of thing, there's no need to think in terms of limits and censorship - you're helping someone you care about find what interests them and avoid what doesn't. Eventually, they'll get a sense of what they want to avoid and how to do that - what kinds of buzz-words produce clips they really don't care to see. They still might like your company for watching, though.
> We watch together sometimes and they ask me if certain links are ok...so basically
> now I'm censoring their viewing.
>>Do parents choose toRe-read that sentence but take "sit" out of it and you might have a better sense of context for what you're asking. How do kids explore and learn in general? At first, they might want or need a parent close by - exploring the woods, exploring the town, exploring the art of skateboarding, or building. But over time they gain confidence and so do you.
> sit with their kids and explore together? what about if the kids want to explore
> on their own?
When Ray was big-time into Runescape (sort of a precursor to WoW), George and I both played a bit to get a sense of what he was enjoying and be able to talk with him about his new fascination. George played a good while longer than I did, but eventually it was just Ray playing, up late at night. By then, he was pretty good at being able to tell when he didn't want to talk to someone - when that someone was obviously there for reasons other than to play the game. I think he ever reported one or two trolls.
Mo's just starting to explore the wonderful world of youtube - she's 10. She's into all things Ed, Edd and Eddy and has been hunting out everything she can find. She doesn't want diversions into Ed-porn, she wants clear storytelling and decent animation, and she's better than I am at knowing how to find what she wants. I've watched with her a little, but I'm not a giant Eds fan, I keep up to know what she's interested in and be her cheering squad for her Ed-based fan art. Recently she figured out how to create a sort of film-strip of her own drawings and is working on something she hopes to upload to youtube (so that's My next job, figuring out how one does that).
>>What about siblings viewing or reading together?We've had a couple issues with Ray wanting to watch movies Mo didn't want to see, and made arrangements for her to do something elsewhere. I got a shock, though, one day when he was watching a Kill Bill marathon and Mo walked in - I was all set up to go into problem-solving mode and find a way for him to watch (on cable, no dvr) without her having that stuff in her face. Instead, she loved it - her background in comics and anime let "get" a lot of the humor that I totally miss. To her, it was a big, live action cartoon, and that was fine.
>>once seen, can't be unseen.Honestly, it's hard to tell what's going to stay with a person. I had nightmares over prayers as a child. Things people Said stuck with me. There are things I've read in books I wish I had never read. Movies and shows... not so much. Not as much as things I've seen in real life, anyway.
---Meredith
Sandra Dodd
mightylittledude
YouTube really, really worried me, too, at first. I got some excellent advice from an unschooling group - possibly this one (I can't quite remember).
I'm still wary, but we have talked about the idea of random odd clips appearing with my son (who is now 5). I can't remember what I said exactly, but he doesn't much like drama, or gore, right now, so I tried to approach it in terms of his preferences. Initially I said it was a good idea to have either one of us (mummy or daddy) check things out to be sure nothing unexpectedly alarming turns up, which he might not like. And if it does, and we switch it off, we try to explain it. My thought is to try to keep him safe, but not scare him, and keep exploring open. I figure he is learning about exploring as well as the specific YouTube itself.
He often wants to watch very specific things, and we usually watch YouTube together for new clips - either my husband or I will help him navigate. He's pretty savvy now, and will hit the 'off' button himself if something comes up he doesn't like. He also knows that our playlists and favourite lists are fine for him to watch totally alone. So he is learning to navigate (at his own pace, in his own way). At least I think so.
I was traumatized as a child by seeing a photo (WW2 Belsen, just liberated). But it wasn't just the images, it was how they fit into my world view (my dad had been incarcerated there), and the fact that I had no-one to navigate it with me. Yes, it would have been better for me if someone had protected me from the images . But, more significantly, I think, with the right empathy and compassionate understanding, and explaining from a place of safety and security, I am pretty sure the impact of the photo would have been hugely reduced.
Hope that helps a little, and if my thoughts on navigating YouTube seem misguided, I'd be very interested in input.
Cornelia
I'm still wary, but we have talked about the idea of random odd clips appearing with my son (who is now 5). I can't remember what I said exactly, but he doesn't much like drama, or gore, right now, so I tried to approach it in terms of his preferences. Initially I said it was a good idea to have either one of us (mummy or daddy) check things out to be sure nothing unexpectedly alarming turns up, which he might not like. And if it does, and we switch it off, we try to explain it. My thought is to try to keep him safe, but not scare him, and keep exploring open. I figure he is learning about exploring as well as the specific YouTube itself.
He often wants to watch very specific things, and we usually watch YouTube together for new clips - either my husband or I will help him navigate. He's pretty savvy now, and will hit the 'off' button himself if something comes up he doesn't like. He also knows that our playlists and favourite lists are fine for him to watch totally alone. So he is learning to navigate (at his own pace, in his own way). At least I think so.
I was traumatized as a child by seeing a photo (WW2 Belsen, just liberated). But it wasn't just the images, it was how they fit into my world view (my dad had been incarcerated there), and the fact that I had no-one to navigate it with me. Yes, it would have been better for me if someone had protected me from the images . But, more significantly, I think, with the right empathy and compassionate understanding, and explaining from a place of safety and security, I am pretty sure the impact of the photo would have been hugely reduced.
Hope that helps a little, and if my thoughts on navigating YouTube seem misguided, I'd be very interested in input.
Cornelia
Sandra Dodd
-=- I think, with the right empathy and compassionate understanding, and explaining from a place of safety and security, I am pretty sure the impact of the photo would have been hugely reduced.-=-
If a kid thinks he or she will "be in trouble" for having seen something, how likely will he ask a parent for a compassionate explanation?
One problem with limits and censorship is that it makes those things "illegal" and wrong, and the child will be sneaky to cover having done the bad thing.
If a family plays with fire WITH a child--lets him light candles or set paper on fire in a controlled environment, or lets him help with the fireplace or campfire, the child will have experience with fire, and not be afraid. If a child is told NEVER play with matches, NEVER play with a lighter, he probably will, but will do it in secret, without advisement, and will lie to cover the mess.
It's an analogy that can take the house down, so it's larger, but the principle of openness and the danger of secrecy are the same in both.
Sandra
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If a kid thinks he or she will "be in trouble" for having seen something, how likely will he ask a parent for a compassionate explanation?
One problem with limits and censorship is that it makes those things "illegal" and wrong, and the child will be sneaky to cover having done the bad thing.
If a family plays with fire WITH a child--lets him light candles or set paper on fire in a controlled environment, or lets him help with the fireplace or campfire, the child will have experience with fire, and not be afraid. If a child is told NEVER play with matches, NEVER play with a lighter, he probably will, but will do it in secret, without advisement, and will lie to cover the mess.
It's an analogy that can take the house down, so it's larger, but the principle of openness and the danger of secrecy are the same in both.
Sandra
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mightylittledude
Yes, I think a simpler way for me to have said it may have been 'with the right relationship'. I mean an open, unschooling relationship. Bcause these dark places are a part of life, and history etc. but they don't have to derail you.
mitrisue
Dmitri has been exploring YouTube independently ever since he could use the mouse himself, maybe age 3 or 4? Now he's 7. No problems. I like that our computer is in the kitchen since it's effortless to be close often. He can show me things and ask for help. I don't remember his being disturbed by something even once, but if it happens, we're there.
I just asked him. He says it's safe for kids to use YouTube. :)
Julie
I just asked him. He says it's safe for kids to use YouTube. :)
Julie
alma
--- In [email protected], "mightylittledude" <corneliablik@...> wrote:
In the last week we have honoured our son's fear of being alone and have accompanied him everywhere (even into different rooms in our house), we have talked about why people make films like that, why people like exploring feelings of fear, why a fear centre in the brain is a good thing for animals to have etc. My husband has also found and watched the episode and chatted with our son specifically about the scary bits. They've snuggled on the sofa watching and talking about some scenes over and over and they have skipped the ones he doesn't want to see again. He is feeling slowly better.
I wish he hadn't seen this film, but I am thankful he could be open with us, confident there would be no shame or ridicule, and trusting we are there to navigate this with him, even if it is after the event.
Alison
DS1(9) and DS2(7)
>My boys (aged 9 and 7) recently watched a grisly crime thriller at my mum's. She wasn't sure about them watching it but my oldest assured her they watch it with daddy. They watched, she was on the phone in another room. In the week since my younger son will not be by himself for a second and is still terrified. My husband was really upset with my mum (and our older son) because the truth is that he (DH) will watch the less grisly episodes with our older son while snuggled on the sofa, giving a sort of commentary. He knows our younger son would be disturbed. He knows our oldest loves that special time with daddy.
> Yes, I think a simpler way for me to have said it may have been 'with the right relationship'. I mean an open, unschooling relationship. Bcause these dark places are a part of life, and history etc. but they don't have to derail you.
>
In the last week we have honoured our son's fear of being alone and have accompanied him everywhere (even into different rooms in our house), we have talked about why people make films like that, why people like exploring feelings of fear, why a fear centre in the brain is a good thing for animals to have etc. My husband has also found and watched the episode and chatted with our son specifically about the scary bits. They've snuggled on the sofa watching and talking about some scenes over and over and they have skipped the ones he doesn't want to see again. He is feeling slowly better.
I wish he hadn't seen this film, but I am thankful he could be open with us, confident there would be no shame or ridicule, and trusting we are there to navigate this with him, even if it is after the event.
Alison
DS1(9) and DS2(7)
Veronica Deleon-sutter
YouTube came into our daughter's life when she was 8 and I started freaking out, then wrote in here and learned to calm down, but damage had already been done by my censoring; my daughter would ask me to leave the room so she could go on Youtube without me bothering her. When she stopped kicking me out, lol, I realized so much stuff I noticed went right over her head, and the stuff that didn't,like "mama what's a prostitute?" I was there to answer. Now she self-censors when she has grown tired of the "junk" as we both call it: the people who are mean to Spongebob or Elmo and teenagers who act less than pleasant, etc. If there's a video she wants to show me that has foul- language in it she warns me in advance; she'll tell me someone is going to say the "s-h-i-t word" and so on. In a way YouTube is that playground-education, a lot of mis-information, and teasing and foul-language; and fun with other kids- the good with the 'junk'.
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Sandra Dodd
-=-Now she self-censors when she has grown tired of the "junk" as we both call it: the people who are mean to Spongebob or Elmo and teenagers who act less than pleasant, etc.-=-
I would like to suggest that you not call it "junk."
Just this morning I was surprised to see an experienced unschooling mom refer to kids going for "junk food" (to a convenience store at night). The term "junk food" isn't helpful in any context. It creates a false division, and isn't informational.
Same with "junk" referring to what someone doesn't like. If you say "mean" or "rude videos" or "nasty" or something that categorizes them by reason to avoid them, I think it will lead to more clarity down the line. If you have a large dumpground called "junk," how can it be re-sorted and categorized and considered as she gets older? She might not like sexy things now, but someday might. She might not like scary or sarcastic or parody now, but when she gets older she might.
When a parent categorizes anything as "stupid" or "trash" or "junk," it infuses the world with more fear and negativity than is necessary or useful.
Sandra
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I would like to suggest that you not call it "junk."
Just this morning I was surprised to see an experienced unschooling mom refer to kids going for "junk food" (to a convenience store at night). The term "junk food" isn't helpful in any context. It creates a false division, and isn't informational.
Same with "junk" referring to what someone doesn't like. If you say "mean" or "rude videos" or "nasty" or something that categorizes them by reason to avoid them, I think it will lead to more clarity down the line. If you have a large dumpground called "junk," how can it be re-sorted and categorized and considered as she gets older? She might not like sexy things now, but someday might. She might not like scary or sarcastic or parody now, but when she gets older she might.
When a parent categorizes anything as "stupid" or "trash" or "junk," it infuses the world with more fear and negativity than is necessary or useful.
Sandra
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