Growing Without Schooling back issues on line
Joyce Fetteroll
When you make a press release aren't you supposed to like release it to "the press"? Or, in more up-to-date terms, various places around the internet?
Pat Farenga "released" back in September that all the back issues of Growing Without Schooling were on line now. He didn't even release it to the New England Unschoolers list and I know he's a member since he posts there occasionally. When I Google phrases from the release I get 7 hits.
The index at the site is so bare it barely has the bones and navigating takes some getting used to but the issues are there. Always Learning has more useful information :-) but the issues are historically interesting.
============
Medford, MA, Sept. 14, 2011: Holt Associates Inc. announced today that all issues of its historic magazine, Growing Without Schooling (GWS), are now available for free public access at its website, www.holtgws.com. Growing Without Schooling is the nation�s first magazine about homeschooling, unschooling, and learning outside of school, founded by the late author/teacher John Holt in 1977.
www.holtgws.com also contains significant amounts of new information about John Holt and his work, including never-before-released video footage of Holt, photographs, and newly digitized audio files of interviews and lectures by Holt where he discusses how schools could be improved.
�GWS documents 24 years of personal stories, news articles, research, books and the strong flowering of the homeschooling movement from 1977 to 2001. In 1977 there were perhaps 10 to 20 thousand homeschoolers and in 2001 it was estimated there were about 1.2 million homeschooled children. In 2011, estimates put that number over two million,� says Farenga.
============
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pat Farenga "released" back in September that all the back issues of Growing Without Schooling were on line now. He didn't even release it to the New England Unschoolers list and I know he's a member since he posts there occasionally. When I Google phrases from the release I get 7 hits.
The index at the site is so bare it barely has the bones and navigating takes some getting used to but the issues are there. Always Learning has more useful information :-) but the issues are historically interesting.
============
Medford, MA, Sept. 14, 2011: Holt Associates Inc. announced today that all issues of its historic magazine, Growing Without Schooling (GWS), are now available for free public access at its website, www.holtgws.com. Growing Without Schooling is the nation�s first magazine about homeschooling, unschooling, and learning outside of school, founded by the late author/teacher John Holt in 1977.
www.holtgws.com also contains significant amounts of new information about John Holt and his work, including never-before-released video footage of Holt, photographs, and newly digitized audio files of interviews and lectures by Holt where he discusses how schools could be improved.
�GWS documents 24 years of personal stories, news articles, research, books and the strong flowering of the homeschooling movement from 1977 to 2001. In 1977 there were perhaps 10 to 20 thousand homeschoolers and in 2001 it was estimated there were about 1.2 million homeschooled children. In 2011, estimates put that number over two million,� says Farenga.
============
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-When you make a press release aren't you supposed to like release it to "the press"? Or, in more up-to-date terms, various places around the internet?-=-
I saw it somewhere at the time. I figured it was partly in response to Home Education Magazine having put up (somehow) all the back issues on their site.
In 1990, those magazines were IT for me--I needed them, and they were wonderful.
Looking back, though, they're very tentative kinds of questions and ideas. John Holt's responses were good, but he was new to the whole idea of "it's okay to give up on school reform," and the families were all new to the idea of keeping kids home, and few had calm or confidence.
Sandra
I saw it somewhere at the time. I figured it was partly in response to Home Education Magazine having put up (somehow) all the back issues on their site.
In 1990, those magazines were IT for me--I needed them, and they were wonderful.
Looking back, though, they're very tentative kinds of questions and ideas. John Holt's responses were good, but he was new to the whole idea of "it's okay to give up on school reform," and the families were all new to the idea of keeping kids home, and few had calm or confidence.
Sandra
Mrs Williams
Hi,
I am new to the list.
I recognize some names here from another discussion list I used to be a member of some years back. I have been on a "discussion list break" for a few years, needed to focus on actual life w/ the kids and learn by doing rather than just reading ;-)
Well, I have a situation I would love som input on.
We live in an appartment building, a very small one, only 7 co-owners. This is great for many things, such as the kids always having companions for play ;-)
We share a common yard/garden and the kids mostly just run in and out of our respective appartments. It's almost like living on a playground continually! This means that a LOT of adult supervision is needed, as there are often conflicts arising over various things. Overall things are playing out nicely, though the differences in parenting styles obviously comes out clearly and influences many situations.
So, my question is this:
It feels akward (and frustrating!) at times to balance the unschooling philosophy in this setting. Like when my neighbor will speak to the boys in a you that means both of them, as in "you have to put on a coat to go outside" and my son will just go outside in t-shirt. This will then make the other boy run out without a coat too, obviously - creating the inevitable scene of the mother following after with the famous coat and then the wailing and protesting "but why does HE not have to then???"
Another example could be evenings when kids are playing in the yard and next-door boy is called in and my son continues to play outside. This often launches a traditional chase around the garden for the mother to catch her son. Well, my husband says we dont *have to* make it harder for the mother (thereby meaning that we could call it a night too and go in)....well, I say it's not my job to help her enforce arbitrary stuff ;-) BUT i also acknowledge of course, that it's nice to abstain from things, or to do x or y in certain circumstances, out of respect and consideration for the other. I have talked to my kids about this many times over the years, how we or they could *choose* to do or not do something out of empathy/solidarity for the other person, even if we didn't *have to*.But I'd find that a bit of hassle to do all the time or very often, due to the "closeness" here - and not really helpful for our own life, which we precisely try to live with out
all these restreints;-)
I predict that it is only going to increase with the boy starting school this fall.
Do you have any general suggestions for this?
Thanks,
Mette (in Denmark)
I am new to the list.
I recognize some names here from another discussion list I used to be a member of some years back. I have been on a "discussion list break" for a few years, needed to focus on actual life w/ the kids and learn by doing rather than just reading ;-)
Well, I have a situation I would love som input on.
We live in an appartment building, a very small one, only 7 co-owners. This is great for many things, such as the kids always having companions for play ;-)
We share a common yard/garden and the kids mostly just run in and out of our respective appartments. It's almost like living on a playground continually! This means that a LOT of adult supervision is needed, as there are often conflicts arising over various things. Overall things are playing out nicely, though the differences in parenting styles obviously comes out clearly and influences many situations.
So, my question is this:
It feels akward (and frustrating!) at times to balance the unschooling philosophy in this setting. Like when my neighbor will speak to the boys in a you that means both of them, as in "you have to put on a coat to go outside" and my son will just go outside in t-shirt. This will then make the other boy run out without a coat too, obviously - creating the inevitable scene of the mother following after with the famous coat and then the wailing and protesting "but why does HE not have to then???"
Another example could be evenings when kids are playing in the yard and next-door boy is called in and my son continues to play outside. This often launches a traditional chase around the garden for the mother to catch her son. Well, my husband says we dont *have to* make it harder for the mother (thereby meaning that we could call it a night too and go in)....well, I say it's not my job to help her enforce arbitrary stuff ;-) BUT i also acknowledge of course, that it's nice to abstain from things, or to do x or y in certain circumstances, out of respect and consideration for the other. I have talked to my kids about this many times over the years, how we or they could *choose* to do or not do something out of empathy/solidarity for the other person, even if we didn't *have to*.But I'd find that a bit of hassle to do all the time or very often, due to the "closeness" here - and not really helpful for our own life, which we precisely try to live with out
all these restreints;-)
I predict that it is only going to increase with the boy starting school this fall.
Do you have any general suggestions for this?
Thanks,
Mette (in Denmark)
Joyce Fetteroll
On Apr 29, 2012, at 10:36 PM, Mrs Williams wrote:
Rather than making it a rule to comply to be "polite", you could help them think about the situations to make a choice each time. You could run some typical scenarios that have happened in the past by them and talk about the various choices they could make and what's happened in the past and what they think would happen. Don't lead them to the "right" choice so much talking in an open way about the various choices and what could happen.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> well, I say it's not my job to help her enforce arbitrary stuff ;-)But once it's said, it's no longer arbitrary. Rather than seeing the request as not making much sense, maybe help your kids see the bigger picture. What are their choices and which will get them to playing peacefully quickest? If your son goes out in a t-shirt, he's causing the other child to go out without a coat and then causing the mom to delay them. Unlike the other child, your child can choose each time whether it's worth it to put on his coat depending not only on the weather but on the other family's "weather." ;-)
Rather than making it a rule to comply to be "polite", you could help them think about the situations to make a choice each time. You could run some typical scenarios that have happened in the past by them and talk about the various choices they could make and what's happened in the past and what they think would happen. Don't lead them to the "right" choice so much talking in an open way about the various choices and what could happen.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robyn Coburn
One of the mons in my home school group has a phrase that she said to
her child when her daughter would challenge a rule or directive in
that way: "That's between xxxx and her mom."
She said it simply and gently not with anger.
Maybe you could try being a bridge, like when the other mom says about
coats, act as if she only spoke to her son and you say to yours
something like, "It is a bit chilly. I have your sweater right here if
you want it."
Less so now that Jayn is older, but more when she was younger, I was
usually there when she was in other people's homes especially in the
beginning, or in public communal spaces, to help navigate those kind
of situations where different expectations arose.
Sometimes I would say directly "no Jayn doesn't have to do that", and
others I would take her aside and say, "your friend has a rule where
they have to.....It will make it easier for her if you do too. Will
you please fit in with that?" especially if it were something small
and easy for Jayn.
Sometimes I would do the subversion thing "have some of mine". I'm on
my phone. It's hard to link. But Sandra has a great story to do with
dessert at an extended family dinner.
Maybe you need to be more present in the other homes for now. Did I
miss how old the kids are?
I would encourage you to find a homeschool park day now, rather than
waiting for school to start and there is a sudden void. It's easy to
slip into always playing at home with the accessible kids. Otoh Jayn
used to want to wait and be available to her schooling neighbors, just
in case they could play today. I wish I had spent more time in that
one other house with her somehow. I never did overcome my vague
antipathy towards that mom. Luckily they moved and we got
homeschoolers instead.
It's not always easy.
Robyn L. Coburn
WWW.robyncoburn.blogspot.com
WWW.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
WWW.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com
her child when her daughter would challenge a rule or directive in
that way: "That's between xxxx and her mom."
She said it simply and gently not with anger.
Maybe you could try being a bridge, like when the other mom says about
coats, act as if she only spoke to her son and you say to yours
something like, "It is a bit chilly. I have your sweater right here if
you want it."
Less so now that Jayn is older, but more when she was younger, I was
usually there when she was in other people's homes especially in the
beginning, or in public communal spaces, to help navigate those kind
of situations where different expectations arose.
Sometimes I would say directly "no Jayn doesn't have to do that", and
others I would take her aside and say, "your friend has a rule where
they have to.....It will make it easier for her if you do too. Will
you please fit in with that?" especially if it were something small
and easy for Jayn.
Sometimes I would do the subversion thing "have some of mine". I'm on
my phone. It's hard to link. But Sandra has a great story to do with
dessert at an extended family dinner.
Maybe you need to be more present in the other homes for now. Did I
miss how old the kids are?
I would encourage you to find a homeschool park day now, rather than
waiting for school to start and there is a sudden void. It's easy to
slip into always playing at home with the accessible kids. Otoh Jayn
used to want to wait and be available to her schooling neighbors, just
in case they could play today. I wish I had spent more time in that
one other house with her somehow. I never did overcome my vague
antipathy towards that mom. Luckily they moved and we got
homeschoolers instead.
It's not always easy.
Robyn L. Coburn
WWW.robyncoburn.blogspot.com
WWW.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
WWW.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com
Sandra Dodd
-=-I recognize some names here from another discussion list I used to be a member of some years back. I have been on a "discussion list break" for a few years, needed to focus on actual life w/ the kids and learn by doing rather than just reading ;-)-=-
A few years is a long time to be operating without feedback!
Maybe balance that with some reading, and some doing.
Read a little, try a little, wait a while, watch.
-=-It feels akward (and frustrating!) at times to balance the unschooling philosophy in this setting. Like when my neighbor will speak to the boys in a you that means both of them, as in "you have to put on a coat to go outside" and my son will just go outside in t-shirt. This will then make the other boy run out without a coat too, obviously - creating the inevitable scene of the mother following after with the famous coat and then the wailing and protesting "but why does HE not have to then???"-=-
If you think it's awkward when it's about a coat, wait until you hear "Why doesn't HE have to go to school then?"
-=-.well, I say it's not my job to help her enforce arbitrary stuff ;-) BUT i also acknowledge of course, that it's nice to abstain from things, or to do x or y in certain circumstances, out of respect and consideration for the other. -=-
Absolutely. You don't have to, but you could choose to. It's courtesy and living with others. Your rights end where hers begin and all that.
-=-I have talked to my kids about this many times over the years, how we or they could *choose* to do or not do something out of empathy/solidarity for the other person, even if we didn't *have to*-=-
You choose. Call them over and talk to them. Don't say "You have to come in." Call them and talk to them quietly, at least long enough for the other family to get inside. Maybe go in so that they're not a distraction or a frustration to the other family. Not because you have to, but because it's courteous.
If you had a neighbor who was severely diabetic, you wouldn't send your kids out with cupcakes, would you?
-=-But I'd find that a bit of hassle to do all the time or very often, due to the "closeness" here - and not really helpful for our own life, which we precisely try to live with out
all these restreints;-)
I predict that it is only going to increase with the boy starting school this fall.-=-
Living close to others is always a hassle. You can never have as much leeway and freedom as you could if you had a freestanding house with land all around it. Unschooling doesn't change those realities.
-=-Do you have any general suggestions for this?-=-
Make choices based on principles. You want your children to learn to be kind. You probably want to maintain friendships so your children can continue to play with the neighbors.
One thing we did for a while was to be gone as soon as all the other kids got out of school. Their moms wanted them to do homework, and if my kids were visible or clearly home, we were a draw for them. We also ended up with the discharge of the frustrations of the school day, and the kids were kind of rougher and meaner right after school than other times. So if I remembered it, 3:00 was a good time to go shopping, or to a park or something. School groups weren't out at the zoo or museums at that time of day. But even just little errands--post office, anything--cut down on the stress of those kids coming in and being reminded that my kids had been home all day.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
A few years is a long time to be operating without feedback!
Maybe balance that with some reading, and some doing.
Read a little, try a little, wait a while, watch.
-=-It feels akward (and frustrating!) at times to balance the unschooling philosophy in this setting. Like when my neighbor will speak to the boys in a you that means both of them, as in "you have to put on a coat to go outside" and my son will just go outside in t-shirt. This will then make the other boy run out without a coat too, obviously - creating the inevitable scene of the mother following after with the famous coat and then the wailing and protesting "but why does HE not have to then???"-=-
If you think it's awkward when it's about a coat, wait until you hear "Why doesn't HE have to go to school then?"
-=-.well, I say it's not my job to help her enforce arbitrary stuff ;-) BUT i also acknowledge of course, that it's nice to abstain from things, or to do x or y in certain circumstances, out of respect and consideration for the other. -=-
Absolutely. You don't have to, but you could choose to. It's courtesy and living with others. Your rights end where hers begin and all that.
-=-I have talked to my kids about this many times over the years, how we or they could *choose* to do or not do something out of empathy/solidarity for the other person, even if we didn't *have to*-=-
You choose. Call them over and talk to them. Don't say "You have to come in." Call them and talk to them quietly, at least long enough for the other family to get inside. Maybe go in so that they're not a distraction or a frustration to the other family. Not because you have to, but because it's courteous.
If you had a neighbor who was severely diabetic, you wouldn't send your kids out with cupcakes, would you?
-=-But I'd find that a bit of hassle to do all the time or very often, due to the "closeness" here - and not really helpful for our own life, which we precisely try to live with out
all these restreints;-)
I predict that it is only going to increase with the boy starting school this fall.-=-
Living close to others is always a hassle. You can never have as much leeway and freedom as you could if you had a freestanding house with land all around it. Unschooling doesn't change those realities.
-=-Do you have any general suggestions for this?-=-
Make choices based on principles. You want your children to learn to be kind. You probably want to maintain friendships so your children can continue to play with the neighbors.
One thing we did for a while was to be gone as soon as all the other kids got out of school. Their moms wanted them to do homework, and if my kids were visible or clearly home, we were a draw for them. We also ended up with the discharge of the frustrations of the school day, and the kids were kind of rougher and meaner right after school than other times. So if I remembered it, 3:00 was a good time to go shopping, or to a park or something. School groups weren't out at the zoo or museums at that time of day. But even just little errands--post office, anything--cut down on the stress of those kids coming in and being reminded that my kids had been home all day.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Mrs Williams
Thank you for the response. I am sorry, but I don't understand this bit:
==But once it's said, it's no longer arbitrary.==
When I say arbitrary, I'm referring to the other mom's decision. What do you mean by "once it's said"?
==If your son goes out in a t-shirt, he's causing the other child to go out without a coat and then causing the mom to delay them==
Sure. But lots of times my son will already be out in the yard for instance. Or they will both be out and they will decide to run around barefoot. Anyway, the coat was just an example. My kids do know about the bigger picture and they also know that they dont *have to* all these things. Oftentimes they will choose to follow along with the other child. But many times they wont. My point was maybe more, that I don't always feel that I find a suitable phrasing in those cases where I am present when the mother says something directed to her son, but englobing my kid in the "you". Not that I always need to say something, but sometimes I do.
==You could run some typical scenarios that have happened in the past by them==
Yes. That is precisely what we do. And my kids are generally very emphatic towards others.
This winter, next-door boy had to wear a hood outside all the time because he gets ear infections easily. My son often spontaneously went in to put one on too and they became knights with hoods on ;-)
This part works nicely. Again, it's more for myself, for those times when it's clearly expected that I chime in somehow, or when the mother will sort of look at me to validate/confirm her decision.
Mette
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
==But once it's said, it's no longer arbitrary.==
When I say arbitrary, I'm referring to the other mom's decision. What do you mean by "once it's said"?
==If your son goes out in a t-shirt, he's causing the other child to go out without a coat and then causing the mom to delay them==
Sure. But lots of times my son will already be out in the yard for instance. Or they will both be out and they will decide to run around barefoot. Anyway, the coat was just an example. My kids do know about the bigger picture and they also know that they dont *have to* all these things. Oftentimes they will choose to follow along with the other child. But many times they wont. My point was maybe more, that I don't always feel that I find a suitable phrasing in those cases where I am present when the mother says something directed to her son, but englobing my kid in the "you". Not that I always need to say something, but sometimes I do.
==You could run some typical scenarios that have happened in the past by them==
Yes. That is precisely what we do. And my kids are generally very emphatic towards others.
This winter, next-door boy had to wear a hood outside all the time because he gets ear infections easily. My son often spontaneously went in to put one on too and they became knights with hoods on ;-)
This part works nicely. Again, it's more for myself, for those times when it's clearly expected that I chime in somehow, or when the mother will sort of look at me to validate/confirm her decision.
Mette
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Mrs Williams
==A few years is a long time to be operating without feedback!==
I was not without feedback. Just without internet discussion forums ;-)
==Call them and talk to them quietly, at least long enough for the other
family to get inside. Maybe go in so that they're not a distraction or a frustration to the other family. Not because you have to, but because
it's courteous.==
Yes. I realize it's a choice. Courteous and all that. Like I said, I have these talks often with my children. I think that the difficulty in this, lies not within the situation itself, but with the frequency. To take the example of going in when the other boy has to. Yes, we can do that (and have and will continue to sometimes). But obviously we wont do that every night for the whole summer ;-) And the neighbor kids will have to come in, early, every night, all summer...
==Living close to others is always a hassle. You can never have as much
leeway and freedom as you could if you had a freestanding house with
land all around it. Unschooling doesn't change those realities.==
I think I might not have expressed myself well. For my part, I do not think that living close to others is a hassle. I love living in this almost Melrose Place-like way. Choosing to leave/not eat something/stop playing or whatever is never a hassle per se. Like you say, it's simple courtesy and consideration. We do it all the time. What makes it different here, is that these situations arise on a daily basis, several times a day even. I guess that I'm maybe looking for ideas to say/do? for those times where we dont *choose* - for any reason - to align with or "help" the other family's decision.
==If you had a neighbor who was severely diabetic, you wouldn't send your kids out with cupcakes, would you? ==
I assume you mean a neighbor child? Well. No of course not, if we were likely to meet that neighbor only occasionally. But in a case like our residency again, you could not possibly abstain from eating sugary stuff in the presence of that child ever. The infrastructure, so to speak, of this house is just too close or open-space-office-like, if you will.
So, to keep this of general interest, I guess what I'm trying to figure out ideas for, are these situations when they are too frequent for the courtesy/empathy-solution to always work (or most of the time).
Mette
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I was not without feedback. Just without internet discussion forums ;-)
==Call them and talk to them quietly, at least long enough for the other
family to get inside. Maybe go in so that they're not a distraction or a frustration to the other family. Not because you have to, but because
it's courteous.==
Yes. I realize it's a choice. Courteous and all that. Like I said, I have these talks often with my children. I think that the difficulty in this, lies not within the situation itself, but with the frequency. To take the example of going in when the other boy has to. Yes, we can do that (and have and will continue to sometimes). But obviously we wont do that every night for the whole summer ;-) And the neighbor kids will have to come in, early, every night, all summer...
==Living close to others is always a hassle. You can never have as much
leeway and freedom as you could if you had a freestanding house with
land all around it. Unschooling doesn't change those realities.==
I think I might not have expressed myself well. For my part, I do not think that living close to others is a hassle. I love living in this almost Melrose Place-like way. Choosing to leave/not eat something/stop playing or whatever is never a hassle per se. Like you say, it's simple courtesy and consideration. We do it all the time. What makes it different here, is that these situations arise on a daily basis, several times a day even. I guess that I'm maybe looking for ideas to say/do? for those times where we dont *choose* - for any reason - to align with or "help" the other family's decision.
==If you had a neighbor who was severely diabetic, you wouldn't send your kids out with cupcakes, would you? ==
I assume you mean a neighbor child? Well. No of course not, if we were likely to meet that neighbor only occasionally. But in a case like our residency again, you could not possibly abstain from eating sugary stuff in the presence of that child ever. The infrastructure, so to speak, of this house is just too close or open-space-office-like, if you will.
So, to keep this of general interest, I guess what I'm trying to figure out ideas for, are these situations when they are too frequent for the courtesy/empathy-solution to always work (or most of the time).
Mette
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-==But once it's said, it's no longer arbitrary.==
-=-When I say arbitrary, I'm referring to the other mom's decision. What do you mean by "once it's said"?-=-
Her requests may seem arbitrary.
Your request to your child would be based on something you didn't create, that was not, at that point then, arbitrary.
The only circumstances in which you can decide not to care at all what the other mom wants is when you're through with the friendship and no longer want your child to play with hers. BUT... because you live close, they wouldn't disappear. They would still be there, and the kids would be unhappy.
Each relationship has costs. Unschooling is not a free ticket, it's not magic, relationships still need to be maintained even if you've decided to be unschoolers.
Breaking off a relationship has costs, too, so it's better to encourage niceness than to criticize the other family and create tension within your own family.
Maybe you could say things like "I wish we lived where you could go barefooted as much as you wanted to!" or whatever it is, instead of blaming the other mom for restrictions.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-=-When I say arbitrary, I'm referring to the other mom's decision. What do you mean by "once it's said"?-=-
Her requests may seem arbitrary.
Your request to your child would be based on something you didn't create, that was not, at that point then, arbitrary.
The only circumstances in which you can decide not to care at all what the other mom wants is when you're through with the friendship and no longer want your child to play with hers. BUT... because you live close, they wouldn't disappear. They would still be there, and the kids would be unhappy.
Each relationship has costs. Unschooling is not a free ticket, it's not magic, relationships still need to be maintained even if you've decided to be unschoolers.
Breaking off a relationship has costs, too, so it's better to encourage niceness than to criticize the other family and create tension within your own family.
Maybe you could say things like "I wish we lived where you could go barefooted as much as you wanted to!" or whatever it is, instead of blaming the other mom for restrictions.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Mrs Williams
==Maybe you need to be more present in the other homes for now. Did I
miss how old the kids are?==
There aren't really many issues when the kids are inside our respective appartments. I think for them all, it's quite natural to follow whatever the "house habits" are in that place.
The issues arise mostly when they are all playing outside, in the shared yardspace. This is when differences show most, both in what different children are allowed to or not, and in how parents handle conflicts and such.
My children are 12, 7, 4 and 18mos. Neighbors are 4,4, 3 and 6. All this stuff mainly concerns my two middle children.
==I would encourage you to find a homeschool park day now, rather than
waiting for school to start and there is a sudden void. ==
The neighbor children are all in daycare, so aren't home until around 4-5pm on weekdays. In that sense, we are used to not relying on our close neighbors for "entertainment". Were you responding to something specific that I wrote here?
==It's not always easy.==
No. It certainly isn't :)
As a whole, we have a nice relationship and athmosphere within our residence. I just need to figure out some specific ways to (re)act and phrase things, that will be as considerate of all parties as possible. That's a bit of a mind boggler :)
Mette
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
miss how old the kids are?==
There aren't really many issues when the kids are inside our respective appartments. I think for them all, it's quite natural to follow whatever the "house habits" are in that place.
The issues arise mostly when they are all playing outside, in the shared yardspace. This is when differences show most, both in what different children are allowed to or not, and in how parents handle conflicts and such.
My children are 12, 7, 4 and 18mos. Neighbors are 4,4, 3 and 6. All this stuff mainly concerns my two middle children.
==I would encourage you to find a homeschool park day now, rather than
waiting for school to start and there is a sudden void. ==
The neighbor children are all in daycare, so aren't home until around 4-5pm on weekdays. In that sense, we are used to not relying on our close neighbors for "entertainment". Were you responding to something specific that I wrote here?
==It's not always easy.==
No. It certainly isn't :)
As a whole, we have a nice relationship and athmosphere within our residence. I just need to figure out some specific ways to (re)act and phrase things, that will be as considerate of all parties as possible. That's a bit of a mind boggler :)
Mette
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Mrs Williams
I appreciate all the input. Thanks :)
But I don't understand this:
== it's better to encourage niceness than to criticize the other family and create tension within your own family.==
==,instead of blaming the other mom for restrictions.==
Where did I say I was blaming the other mom for restrictions? And that I critizize the other family which creates tension? I have a feeling I have not expressed myself well in english...
==The only circumstances in which you can decide not to care at all what the other mom wants==
Also this. Did I give the impression that I do not care at all, or that I wish to not care at all? That is a big misunderstanding. It is not that I don't care or that I wished we wouldn't *have to* take others into consideration. If that were so, I would never have chosen to live in a small residence like this one ;-) Or are you extra-polating from this discussion to a general sort of thing?
==Maybe you could say things like "I wish we lived where you could go
barefooted as much as you wanted to!"==
Do you mean to my own child say this? Or to the other child? (or both...)
Thanks for clarification.
Mette
.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
But I don't understand this:
== it's better to encourage niceness than to criticize the other family and create tension within your own family.==
==,instead of blaming the other mom for restrictions.==
Where did I say I was blaming the other mom for restrictions? And that I critizize the other family which creates tension? I have a feeling I have not expressed myself well in english...
==The only circumstances in which you can decide not to care at all what the other mom wants==
Also this. Did I give the impression that I do not care at all, or that I wish to not care at all? That is a big misunderstanding. It is not that I don't care or that I wished we wouldn't *have to* take others into consideration. If that were so, I would never have chosen to live in a small residence like this one ;-) Or are you extra-polating from this discussion to a general sort of thing?
==Maybe you could say things like "I wish we lived where you could go
barefooted as much as you wanted to!"==
Do you mean to my own child say this? Or to the other child? (or both...)
Thanks for clarification.
Mette
.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Or are you extra-polating from this discussion to a general sort of thing?-=-
Always.
Not only did you ask for general ideas, the purpose of the Always Learning list is to discuss the ideas in general.
If you just joined, you should have received an e-mail with information about the discussion. Please read here and follow the links:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/
==Maybe you could say things like "I wish we lived where you could go
barefooted as much as you wanted to!"==
-=-Do you mean to my own child say this? Or to the other child? (or both...)-=-
To your own child I meant.
When you mentioned things changing when school starts, people might have thought (as I did) that all the children were pre-school age and yours were going to be the only ones not going to school.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Always.
Not only did you ask for general ideas, the purpose of the Always Learning list is to discuss the ideas in general.
If you just joined, you should have received an e-mail with information about the discussion. Please read here and follow the links:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/
==Maybe you could say things like "I wish we lived where you could go
barefooted as much as you wanted to!"==
-=-Do you mean to my own child say this? Or to the other child? (or both...)-=-
To your own child I meant.
When you mentioned things changing when school starts, people might have thought (as I did) that all the children were pre-school age and yours were going to be the only ones not going to school.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Mrs Williams
==Always. Not only did you ask for general ideas, the purpose of the Always Learning list is to discuss the ideas in general.==
Thanks. I understand that we are talking about general ideas - and I have read the introduction texts - BUT when you write, in response to my post, things like this:
==it's better to encourage niceness than to criticize the other family== or ==instead of blaming the other mom for restrictions==
the use of "better than" and "instead" implies that this is what the OP was about, I think...
I guess I just really don't understand how my post could lead to writing things like the above. I had probably expected to get some concrete ideas for phrasing, actions (which I also got a few of, thanks) but not that what I wrote could somehow take off into stuff about critizing, blaming and not caring about the other mom. This is pretty specifically pointing back to the situation originaly described, imo.
But anyway, nevermind - misunderstandings occur all the time on lists like these :)
Mette
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Thanks. I understand that we are talking about general ideas - and I have read the introduction texts - BUT when you write, in response to my post, things like this:
==it's better to encourage niceness than to criticize the other family== or ==instead of blaming the other mom for restrictions==
the use of "better than" and "instead" implies that this is what the OP was about, I think...
I guess I just really don't understand how my post could lead to writing things like the above. I had probably expected to get some concrete ideas for phrasing, actions (which I also got a few of, thanks) but not that what I wrote could somehow take off into stuff about critizing, blaming and not caring about the other mom. This is pretty specifically pointing back to the situation originaly described, imo.
But anyway, nevermind - misunderstandings occur all the time on lists like these :)
Mette
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Mrs Williams
==To your own child I meant.==
Ok. If I understand you correctly then, you are advising me to align more with the neighbor's standards then? That's not really doable. Please let me try to clarify
why I am at all thinking about this. I don't when it is about people
we see periodically. Then choosing to go with the others'
standards isn't a problem (in most cases). But in this case, there are so many situations that is just not realistic.
And as I see it, the other parents are as much responsible for their
parenting choices as I am for mine. Please don't interpret this to mean
that I don't want to care about what she wants or not. I ask her all the time if x or y is okay by her. But it can't be our responsibility to
help her have her kids comply easier and help the kids feel less bad, every time, even in the name of kindness and everything.
What I am trying to explain, rather ineloquently it seems, is that due
to the nature of our type of housing, we are faced DAILY and often several
times a day - throughout the year, with situations where the neighbor
kids are restricted/controlled and mine are not. I understand about
living by principles. I understand about kindness, consideration, trying
not frustrate the others and all that. But it is not a realistic
solution to draw on the "align-with-the-others-choices"-tool for this.
The frequency with which our family would be abstaining from something
we'd actually enjoy or doing something
we'd honestly rather not would be way to high. You can do these things when they're on an
occasional basis, but you are going to tire of doing it, for something
or the other, EVERYDAY. I hope I am describing the situation clearly
enough.
Hmm. I was wrong in asking for general ideas. I should have specified for phrasing or actions infact, since I think that is actually what I'm looking for. Sorry for that confusion!
So, I am looking for advice/ideas for phrasing or actions for those situations where we choose not to do as the neighbor, and where it's clearly expected of me/us to somehow chime in. Is it better to give a few specific examples of situations? and then I will do my own "transferring" to other types of situation after reading any advice and ideas? Thanks for everyones time :)
Mette
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ok. If I understand you correctly then, you are advising me to align more with the neighbor's standards then? That's not really doable. Please let me try to clarify
why I am at all thinking about this. I don't when it is about people
we see periodically. Then choosing to go with the others'
standards isn't a problem (in most cases). But in this case, there are so many situations that is just not realistic.
And as I see it, the other parents are as much responsible for their
parenting choices as I am for mine. Please don't interpret this to mean
that I don't want to care about what she wants or not. I ask her all the time if x or y is okay by her. But it can't be our responsibility to
help her have her kids comply easier and help the kids feel less bad, every time, even in the name of kindness and everything.
What I am trying to explain, rather ineloquently it seems, is that due
to the nature of our type of housing, we are faced DAILY and often several
times a day - throughout the year, with situations where the neighbor
kids are restricted/controlled and mine are not. I understand about
living by principles. I understand about kindness, consideration, trying
not frustrate the others and all that. But it is not a realistic
solution to draw on the "align-with-the-others-choices"-tool for this.
The frequency with which our family would be abstaining from something
we'd actually enjoy or doing something
we'd honestly rather not would be way to high. You can do these things when they're on an
occasional basis, but you are going to tire of doing it, for something
or the other, EVERYDAY. I hope I am describing the situation clearly
enough.
Hmm. I was wrong in asking for general ideas. I should have specified for phrasing or actions infact, since I think that is actually what I'm looking for. Sorry for that confusion!
So, I am looking for advice/ideas for phrasing or actions for those situations where we choose not to do as the neighbor, and where it's clearly expected of me/us to somehow chime in. Is it better to give a few specific examples of situations? and then I will do my own "transferring" to other types of situation after reading any advice and ideas? Thanks for everyones time :)
Mette
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=- BUT when you write, in response to my post, things like this:
==it's better to encourage niceness than to criticize the other family== or ==instead of blaming the other mom for restrictions==
the use of "better than" and "instead" implies that this is what the OP was about, I think...-=-
================
Did you read the introduction to this list before you ever posted the first time?
Did you read all I asked you to read before you posted THIS time?
You're making it all about you, instead of about the principles of unschooling and peaceful parenting.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
==it's better to encourage niceness than to criticize the other family== or ==instead of blaming the other mom for restrictions==
the use of "better than" and "instead" implies that this is what the OP was about, I think...-=-
================
Did you read the introduction to this list before you ever posted the first time?
Did you read all I asked you to read before you posted THIS time?
You're making it all about you, instead of about the principles of unschooling and peaceful parenting.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Mrs Williams
Alright. I am really sorry. I don't think it is "all about me". I think I was commenting on semantics or dynamics of how a thread/discussion evolves.
Whatever. I don't want to create dissension or anything. And yes I read before posting the first time. No, I did not read again before posting this time. In my mind, I was not violating any posting principles. I see that I was then, my apologies. I shall try to to better in future postings!
Peace! Really :)
Mette
________________________________
From: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, May 1, 2012 3:51 AM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] How to "navigate" with close neigbors?
-=- BUT when you write, in response to my post, things like this:
==it's better to encourage niceness than to criticize the other family== or ==instead of blaming the other mom for restrictions==
the use of "better than" and "instead" implies that this is what the OP was about, I think...-=-
================
Did you read the introduction to this list before you ever posted the first time?
Did you read all I asked you to read before you posted THIS time?
You're making it all about you, instead of about the principles of unschooling and peaceful parenting.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Whatever. I don't want to create dissension or anything. And yes I read before posting the first time. No, I did not read again before posting this time. In my mind, I was not violating any posting principles. I see that I was then, my apologies. I shall try to to better in future postings!
Peace! Really :)
Mette
________________________________
From: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, May 1, 2012 3:51 AM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] How to "navigate" with close neigbors?
-=- BUT when you write, in response to my post, things like this:
==it's better to encourage niceness than to criticize the other family== or ==instead of blaming the other mom for restrictions==
the use of "better than" and "instead" implies that this is what the OP was about, I think...-=-
================
Did you read the introduction to this list before you ever posted the first time?
Did you read all I asked you to read before you posted THIS time?
You're making it all about you, instead of about the principles of unschooling and peaceful parenting.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-What I am trying to explain, rather ineloquently it seems, is that due
to the nature of our type of housing, we are faced DAILY and often several
times a day - throughout the year, with situations where the neighbor
kids are restricted/controlled and mine are not. I understand about
living by principles. I understand about kindness, consideration, trying
not frustrate the others and all that. But it is not a realistic
solution to draw on the "align-with-the-others-choices"-tool for this. -=-
Each choice you make will bring you closer to peace or further from peace.
http://sandradodd.com/choices
http://sandradodd.com/parentingpeacefully
Something from Joyce, about accepting advice:
http://sandradodd.com/advice
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
to the nature of our type of housing, we are faced DAILY and often several
times a day - throughout the year, with situations where the neighbor
kids are restricted/controlled and mine are not. I understand about
living by principles. I understand about kindness, consideration, trying
not frustrate the others and all that. But it is not a realistic
solution to draw on the "align-with-the-others-choices"-tool for this. -=-
Each choice you make will bring you closer to peace or further from peace.
http://sandradodd.com/choices
http://sandradodd.com/parentingpeacefully
Something from Joyce, about accepting advice:
http://sandradodd.com/advice
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
My family's life has always been "different" and we've always been around
people with different rules, habits, beliefs, etc. I've long ago perfected
what I call my "smile and shrug" response. It often goes along with "Oh,
you know how we are....." said with a smile and a shrug and a look that
says that I know we're eccentric but don't you just love us anyway?
I did also coach my kids on the fact that they had way more freedom than
most kids and that they didn't have all the rules that most kids had and
that they shouldn't rub the other kids' noses in it...that it wouldn't make
them feel bad. For the most part, my kids went along with whatever rules
there were in other people's homes. The exception was food - if they were
eating at someone else's house and felt pressured to eat something they
didn't want to eat, I coached them to say, "I might be allergic to it,
could you ask my mom?" If they called and asked me I would always say,
"Yes, she's sensitive to that." I think my kids were a little confused when
they were little - they thought "allergic" actually meant "don't want to
try." That only came up a few times, though.
I remember once my daughter told me she was at her friend's house and the
mom told them they had to wear their sweatshirts to go outside. The girl
made a big deal out of protesting that she wasn't cold, but Roya told the
girl, "Your mom thinks we'll be cold so just put it on now and when we're
outside we can take them off if we're too warm." She assumed that the mom
had her best interests at heart and thought the daughter was being weirdly
rude about it.
-pam
people with different rules, habits, beliefs, etc. I've long ago perfected
what I call my "smile and shrug" response. It often goes along with "Oh,
you know how we are....." said with a smile and a shrug and a look that
says that I know we're eccentric but don't you just love us anyway?
I did also coach my kids on the fact that they had way more freedom than
most kids and that they didn't have all the rules that most kids had and
that they shouldn't rub the other kids' noses in it...that it wouldn't make
them feel bad. For the most part, my kids went along with whatever rules
there were in other people's homes. The exception was food - if they were
eating at someone else's house and felt pressured to eat something they
didn't want to eat, I coached them to say, "I might be allergic to it,
could you ask my mom?" If they called and asked me I would always say,
"Yes, she's sensitive to that." I think my kids were a little confused when
they were little - they thought "allergic" actually meant "don't want to
try." That only came up a few times, though.
I remember once my daughter told me she was at her friend's house and the
mom told them they had to wear their sweatshirts to go outside. The girl
made a big deal out of protesting that she wasn't cold, but Roya told the
girl, "Your mom thinks we'll be cold so just put it on now and when we're
outside we can take them off if we're too warm." She assumed that the mom
had her best interests at heart and thought the daughter was being weirdly
rude about it.
-pam
On Mon, Apr 30, 2012 at 4:21 PM, Mrs Williams <mrsw5791@...> wrote:
> As a whole, we have a nice relationship and athmosphere within our
> residence. I just need to figure out some specific ways to (re)act and
> phrase things, that will be as considerate of all parties as possible.
> That's a bit of a mind boggler :)
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
dezignarob
>Yes, as Sandra said, it was a phrase about starting school in fall. That idea may not apply specifically.
> ==I would encourage you to find a homeschool park day now, rather than
> waiting for school to start and there is a sudden void. ==
>
> The neighbor children are all in daycare, so aren't home until around 4-5pm on weekdays. In that sense, we are used to not relying on our close neighbors for "entertainment". Were you responding to something specific that I wrote here?
>===
You know I've become a bit confused about what you are looking for. It seems like you are having increasing stress with one, or maybe more, of your neighbors because you feel an expectation from them that you agree with their parenting philosophies. The other lady expects you to back her plays and support her directives, increasingly and every day, and this is making you uncomfortable. Is that it?
Sometimes you can just shrug your shoulders. Sometimes you can be a go between or a kind of distraction like others have suggested. Sometimes you can say something pleasantly to the mom like, "I usually let (kid's name) make that call himself" or "I really don't mind if ...."
What will help your kids enjoy being with their friends? Can they spend more time at your house?
Robyn Coburn
Www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
Mrs Williams
==Something from Joyce, about accepting advice:
http://sandradodd.com/advice ==
Exactly. This is an excerpt from this link: "If people are getting a different impression than you expect, it's
coming from the words used. The words are all people have to go by in
this medium. If responses aren't what you expect, it's good to examine your words to see what picture you're painting for others"
So. I realize that I have been extremely bad at presenting the situation and what exactly it was that I was looking for. It is not that I don't want to ponder any advice given. It is that I have been getting advice that don't apply to the situation. My fault.
Thanks to all who did respond. There is no use in taking this any further. I got some useful input among the lot and that's what matters. I will now return to trying out different things and see what works irl.
Mette
________________________________
From: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, May 1, 2012 5:49 AM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] How to "navigate" with close neigbors?
-=-What I am trying to explain, rather ineloquently it seems, is that due
to the nature of our type of housing, we are faced DAILY and often several
times a day - throughout the year, with situations where the neighbor
kids are restricted/controlled and mine are not. I understand about
living by principles. I understand about kindness, consideration, trying
not frustrate the others and all that. But it is not a realistic
solution to draw on the "align-with-the-others-choices"-tool for this. -=-
Each choice you make will bring you closer to peace or further from peace.
http://sandradodd.com/choices
http://sandradodd.com/parentingpeacefully
Something from Joyce, about accepting advice:
http://sandradodd.com/advice
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
http://sandradodd.com/advice ==
Exactly. This is an excerpt from this link: "If people are getting a different impression than you expect, it's
coming from the words used. The words are all people have to go by in
this medium. If responses aren't what you expect, it's good to examine your words to see what picture you're painting for others"
So. I realize that I have been extremely bad at presenting the situation and what exactly it was that I was looking for. It is not that I don't want to ponder any advice given. It is that I have been getting advice that don't apply to the situation. My fault.
Thanks to all who did respond. There is no use in taking this any further. I got some useful input among the lot and that's what matters. I will now return to trying out different things and see what works irl.
Mette
________________________________
From: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, May 1, 2012 5:49 AM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] How to "navigate" with close neigbors?
-=-What I am trying to explain, rather ineloquently it seems, is that due
to the nature of our type of housing, we are faced DAILY and often several
times a day - throughout the year, with situations where the neighbor
kids are restricted/controlled and mine are not. I understand about
living by principles. I understand about kindness, consideration, trying
not frustrate the others and all that. But it is not a realistic
solution to draw on the "align-with-the-others-choices"-tool for this. -=-
Each choice you make will bring you closer to peace or further from peace.
http://sandradodd.com/choices
http://sandradodd.com/parentingpeacefully
Something from Joyce, about accepting advice:
http://sandradodd.com/advice
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Mrs Williams
==Sometimes you can just shrug your shoulders. Sometimes you can be a go
between or a kind of distraction like others have suggested. Sometimes
you can say something pleasantly to the mom like, "I usually let (kid's
name) make that call himself" or "I really don't mind if ...."==
Thank you. I will add these to my "reserve of ways to say things".
Mette
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
between or a kind of distraction like others have suggested. Sometimes
you can say something pleasantly to the mom like, "I usually let (kid's
name) make that call himself" or "I really don't mind if ...."==
Thank you. I will add these to my "reserve of ways to say things".
Mette
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
K Pennell
It sounds to me as though you are living near at least some neighbors who may be "too controlling" to just adjust to those rules to make things easier for the moment? Am I right? It is nice to make things easier for your neighbors when you can, but there may be times this won't be practical.
We are part of a homeschool group. We don't all have the same rules, but it hasn't been a problem. I haven't really felt the need to curb my child's freedom, except with safety issues (such as if a really little child is on the trampoline and my son is being a bit too bouncy). Sometimes one kid has to leave, and really doesn't want to. I might quietly suggest to my son that he walk the friend to the car, say good bye and make plans for a play date. That might help give the friend closure and a warm welcome back for next time, without cramping anyone else's style. Other times the kids turn it into a game all on their own. "I'll race you to your car" type of thing.
We are part of a homeschool group. We don't all have the same rules, but it hasn't been a problem. I haven't really felt the need to curb my child's freedom, except with safety issues (such as if a really little child is on the trampoline and my son is being a bit too bouncy). Sometimes one kid has to leave, and really doesn't want to. I might quietly suggest to my son that he walk the friend to the car, say good bye and make plans for a play date. That might help give the friend closure and a warm welcome back for next time, without cramping anyone else's style. Other times the kids turn it into a game all on their own. "I'll race you to your car" type of thing.
--- On Mon, 4/30/12, Mrs Williams <mrsw5791@...> wrote:
From: Mrs Williams <mrsw5791@...>
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] How to "navigate" with close neigbors?
To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
Date: Monday, April 30, 2012, 9:58 PM
Alright. I am really sorry. I don't think it is "all about me". I think I was commenting on semantics or dynamics of how a thread/discussion evolves.
Whatever. I don't want to create dissension or anything. And yes I read before posting the first time. No, I did not read again before posting this time. In my mind, I was not violating any posting principles. I see that I was then, my apologies. I shall try to to better in future postings!
Peace! Really :)
Mette
________________________________
From: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, May 1, 2012 3:51 AM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] How to "navigate" with close neigbors?
-=- BUT when you write, in response to my post, things like this:
==it's better to encourage niceness than to criticize the other family== or ==instead of blaming the other mom for restrictions==
the use of "better than" and "instead" implies that this is what the OP was about, I think...-=-
================
Did you read the introduction to this list before you ever posted the first time?
Did you read all I asked you to read before you posted THIS time?
You're making it all about you, instead of about the principles of unschooling and peaceful parenting.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
Perhaps, as an analogy, the others on this list could be considered close neighbors.
-=- I don't think it is "all about me". I think I was commenting on semantics or dynamics of how a thread/discussion evolves.-=-
Before this discussion list, I (and several of the other regular posters who are VERY generous to keep helping others even though their own children are teens or young adults) posted on other forums, for many years. When a question comes up, it is related to a cluster of questions and problems and possible unforeseen but related problems. There are patterns. There are similarities in people's unschooling situations. Everyone who lives in an apartment is in danger of offending the neighbors by not sending children to school or by letting them "eat between meals" and many other such things that have happened before and will happen again.
When one person asks any question or presents any situation, there are many hundred, maybe over a thousand, potentially two thousand readers of the responses. And there will be be people joining the discussion next year who will read back into the archives. I'm writing for them.
It's not a help desk. It's a discussion. It's not a repair shop, it's a workshop by and for participants. It's not "Here is my laptop; please fix it." It's "When a laptop doesn't turn on quickly, what might be the problem?"
Here are some prior discussions about the discussion, in hopes we don't need to discuss the discussion again:
http://sandradodd.com/lists/discussionsOFdiscussions.html
From one of those, by Pam Sorooshian:
========
I apologize in advance because sometimes I forget that people take
responses to their posts as if they are written directly TO them, personally.
All comments I ever make are really to the "idea" - not necessarily to an
individual poster. I take what you may have posted and I just start thinking
about it and post about the subject - anything I say may not at all apply to
you and I may not even THINK it might apply to you. I just think that any
topic brought up in any post becomes fodder for exploration and delving into
more deeply.
It is REALLY good to develop an "if the shoe fits" attitude about email
lists. If somebody posts something in response to your post, but you don't
think the shoe fits, then don't feel like you have to defend yourself - just
tell yourself, "Woops, they think that shoe fits me, but I know it doesn't."
Sometimes the opposite happens -- sometimes you'll read a post that is NOT
directed to you, but it'll sting or disturb you anyway because you DO fit
that particular shoe.
=========
And my favorite bit ever on the topic, by Joyce Fetteroll:
---------------
The list is about ideas, not about people.
Think of ideas like balls and the list like a ball court. If someone tosses an idea worth discussing into the court it's going to get batted about. At that point what's going on is no longer about the person who tossed the idea in. It's about the idea and how well and cleanly it's being tossed about. (Unless the tosser keeps jumping in and grabbing the idea ball saying "Mine!")
-------------
-=- I don't think it is "all about me". I think I was commenting on semantics or dynamics of how a thread/discussion evolves.-=-
Before this discussion list, I (and several of the other regular posters who are VERY generous to keep helping others even though their own children are teens or young adults) posted on other forums, for many years. When a question comes up, it is related to a cluster of questions and problems and possible unforeseen but related problems. There are patterns. There are similarities in people's unschooling situations. Everyone who lives in an apartment is in danger of offending the neighbors by not sending children to school or by letting them "eat between meals" and many other such things that have happened before and will happen again.
When one person asks any question or presents any situation, there are many hundred, maybe over a thousand, potentially two thousand readers of the responses. And there will be be people joining the discussion next year who will read back into the archives. I'm writing for them.
It's not a help desk. It's a discussion. It's not a repair shop, it's a workshop by and for participants. It's not "Here is my laptop; please fix it." It's "When a laptop doesn't turn on quickly, what might be the problem?"
Here are some prior discussions about the discussion, in hopes we don't need to discuss the discussion again:
http://sandradodd.com/lists/discussionsOFdiscussions.html
From one of those, by Pam Sorooshian:
========
I apologize in advance because sometimes I forget that people take
responses to their posts as if they are written directly TO them, personally.
All comments I ever make are really to the "idea" - not necessarily to an
individual poster. I take what you may have posted and I just start thinking
about it and post about the subject - anything I say may not at all apply to
you and I may not even THINK it might apply to you. I just think that any
topic brought up in any post becomes fodder for exploration and delving into
more deeply.
It is REALLY good to develop an "if the shoe fits" attitude about email
lists. If somebody posts something in response to your post, but you don't
think the shoe fits, then don't feel like you have to defend yourself - just
tell yourself, "Woops, they think that shoe fits me, but I know it doesn't."
Sometimes the opposite happens -- sometimes you'll read a post that is NOT
directed to you, but it'll sting or disturb you anyway because you DO fit
that particular shoe.
=========
And my favorite bit ever on the topic, by Joyce Fetteroll:
---------------
The list is about ideas, not about people.
Think of ideas like balls and the list like a ball court. If someone tosses an idea worth discussing into the court it's going to get batted about. At that point what's going on is no longer about the person who tossed the idea in. It's about the idea and how well and cleanly it's being tossed about. (Unless the tosser keeps jumping in and grabbing the idea ball saying "Mine!")
-------------
Sandra Dodd
-=-Thanks to all who did respond. There is no use in taking this any further. I got some useful input among the lot and that's what matters. -=-
You're grabbing your ball and going home?
There are others benefiting from the discussion. It's okay if you leave, but it's not okay to tell us there's no use in taking it further. There are many people here who could use the ideas being presented. The topic will wind down when it winds down naturally.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
You're grabbing your ball and going home?
There are others benefiting from the discussion. It's okay if you leave, but it's not okay to tell us there's no use in taking it further. There are many people here who could use the ideas being presented. The topic will wind down when it winds down naturally.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Mrs Williams
== It's okay if you leave, but it's not okay to tell us there's no use in taking it further==
I meant for me. No use for me in continuing to try to explain myself. You would agree, that we aren't getting anywhere constructive with this I think?!
I did not tell you to stop the topic, obviously.
I am not leaving. Just ceasing to persist with this particular discussion. Anyone who wishes to, is welcome to toss around that ball as much as they like, obviously.
I will read from the sideline :)
Read a little, try a little.....;-)
Mette
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I meant for me. No use for me in continuing to try to explain myself. You would agree, that we aren't getting anywhere constructive with this I think?!
I did not tell you to stop the topic, obviously.
I am not leaving. Just ceasing to persist with this particular discussion. Anyone who wishes to, is welcome to toss around that ball as much as they like, obviously.
I will read from the sideline :)
Read a little, try a little.....;-)
Mette
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Meredith
Mrs Williams <mrsw5791@...> wrote:
What's your goal? that's the part which isn't clear to me. It seems like you're looking for a way to make the situation less awkward, and the "solution" may very well be for you to step back from that expectation. You're the odd-man-out in the neighborhood, the minority, there's going to be awkwardness and misunderstanding from the other families they don't understand where you're coming from. I fall into a couple different minority groups, so I'm familiar with this in multiple settings.
If you have some special quirk to your personality where you joke easily and kindly, you could make a joke. You could say something blandly non-committal like "parenting is the hardest job in the world". Or you could say nothing at all. If you're not in a position to actively throw in your support behind the neighbor parents in the moment, saying nothing may be the best option.
---Meredith
>> So, I am looking for advice/ideas for phrasing or actions for those situations where we choose not to do as the neighbor, and where it's clearly expected of me/us to somehow chime in.********************
What's your goal? that's the part which isn't clear to me. It seems like you're looking for a way to make the situation less awkward, and the "solution" may very well be for you to step back from that expectation. You're the odd-man-out in the neighborhood, the minority, there's going to be awkwardness and misunderstanding from the other families they don't understand where you're coming from. I fall into a couple different minority groups, so I'm familiar with this in multiple settings.
If you have some special quirk to your personality where you joke easily and kindly, you could make a joke. You could say something blandly non-committal like "parenting is the hardest job in the world". Or you could say nothing at all. If you're not in a position to actively throw in your support behind the neighbor parents in the moment, saying nothing may be the best option.
---Meredith
Meredith
"dezignarob" <dezignarob@...> wrote:
I've done that - over Mo's head make eye contact with the other mom and mouth "it's okay with me" or give a little wave which implies that whatever the issue, it's not against one of my "rules". Different families do have different rules about things, but parents don't always realize that until they live in close quarters with other families. I know it came up in lots of little ways when I lived communally - each family had things they thought were standard or obvious and then were really surprised when those same things weren't standard or obvious to others - and that was a situation where people had specifically moved in together because they had common values.
---Meredith
>Sometimes you can say something pleasantly to the mom like, "I usually let (kid's name) make that call himself" or "I really don't mind if ...."*****************
I've done that - over Mo's head make eye contact with the other mom and mouth "it's okay with me" or give a little wave which implies that whatever the issue, it's not against one of my "rules". Different families do have different rules about things, but parents don't always realize that until they live in close quarters with other families. I know it came up in lots of little ways when I lived communally - each family had things they thought were standard or obvious and then were really surprised when those same things weren't standard or obvious to others - and that was a situation where people had specifically moved in together because they had common values.
---Meredith
Julie
I like the idea of joking. I use this all the time. My daughter had a sun dress on today and my friends kept commenting on how looking at her made them cold. My daughter also rarely has shoes on.
I just say things like, if she's cold I assume she will ask for a coat
Sent from my iPhone
I just say things like, if she's cold I assume she will ask for a coat
Sent from my iPhone
On May 1, 2012, at 12:16 PM, "Meredith" <plaidpanties666@...> wrote:
> Mrs Williams <mrsw5791@...> wrote:
> >> So, I am looking for advice/ideas for phrasing or actions for those situations where we choose not to do as the neighbor, and where it's clearly expected of me/us to somehow chime in.
> ********************
>
> What's your goal? that's the part which isn't clear to me. It seems like you're looking for a way to make the situation less awkward, and the "solution" may very well be for you to step back from that expectation. You're the odd-man-out in the neighborhood, the minority, there's going to be awkwardness and misunderstanding from the other families they don't understand where you're coming from. I fall into a couple different minority groups, so I'm familiar with this in multiple settings.
>
> If you have some special quirk to your personality where you joke easily and kindly, you could make a joke. You could say something blandly non-committal like "parenting is the hardest job in the world". Or you could say nothing at all. If you're not in a position to actively throw in your support behind the neighbor parents in the moment, saying nothing may be the best option.
>
> ---Meredith
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Mrs Williams
==What's your goal? that's the part which isn't clear to me. It seems like you're looking for a way to make the situation less awkward ==
Maybe I don't know really what my goal is either. Maybe it's what you say. Maybe I just need to find some sort of peace with the fact that these scenes are inevitable, due to our differences in parenting style. Maybe I'm giving too much thought to an issue that doesn't require that much scrutiny ;-)
Mette
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Maybe I don't know really what my goal is either. Maybe it's what you say. Maybe I just need to find some sort of peace with the fact that these scenes are inevitable, due to our differences in parenting style. Maybe I'm giving too much thought to an issue that doesn't require that much scrutiny ;-)
Mette
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
maryann
Would it help if you try to explain the other mother's reasoning instead of considering it arbitrary? My kids, especially my almost 6 year old, often want to know why other parents parent the way they do. It would be tempting/easier to tell him it's just arbitrary and that other parents who aren't unschoolers don't make sense. But I don't want him to repeat that, or to be left without a thoughtful answer when he asks a thoughtful question, so I try to explain what people might be thinking.
For example, if the other mother says, "Time to come in now", and you are out there with your child, not ready to go in, maybe you could say to your child, "He has to get up early tomorrow for daycare/school so she wants to help him get to sleep. Let's be quieter so we don't disturb him." If the other child overhears, even better. And if this becomes the standing explanation for why the other child routinely has to go in before your children, everyone may start to say it and understand it too, rather than arguing or resenting as much, or expecting your kids to go in without a reason. And the other mother may benefit from not being considered arbitrary as much.
Maybe if you can find situations in which to do this type of explaining, it will help to buffer other times when things Are arbitrary. That way you're not "always" contradicting the other parents.
When I offer my son a coat, he will say, "I'm not cold" if he's not cold, and I may take a coat for him just in case. I may say later, "Remember, your coat is here if you get cold." When it was freezing and we were about to walk through a parking lot out in public, and he declined a coat, I explained to him about Children's Services and how other people may worry and report us and why that would not be good. A few times, he still said he wasn't cold enough for a coat, so I carried it very obviously, while he held my hand. If anyone had said anything to me about it, I would have said something like, "I know, he must be really hot blooded! But I have his coat right here. Let's hurry, kids, I'm cold."
Legally parents are required to provide coats for their children, but a lot of parents take it further and think they need to force the kids to wear them whenever the temperature is such that an "authority" or grandmother may think it's chilly. Alot of times the parents themselves don't wear a coat.
Maybe talking about your reasoning and why it's different from the neighbors (in concrete ways, not "because we're unschoolers") it will help smooth things over. If the neighbors hear that you understand their reasoning, they may be more likely to understand yours and not see you as overly permissive and/or neglectful.
maryann
mama to 5 year old and 2 year old
For example, if the other mother says, "Time to come in now", and you are out there with your child, not ready to go in, maybe you could say to your child, "He has to get up early tomorrow for daycare/school so she wants to help him get to sleep. Let's be quieter so we don't disturb him." If the other child overhears, even better. And if this becomes the standing explanation for why the other child routinely has to go in before your children, everyone may start to say it and understand it too, rather than arguing or resenting as much, or expecting your kids to go in without a reason. And the other mother may benefit from not being considered arbitrary as much.
Maybe if you can find situations in which to do this type of explaining, it will help to buffer other times when things Are arbitrary. That way you're not "always" contradicting the other parents.
When I offer my son a coat, he will say, "I'm not cold" if he's not cold, and I may take a coat for him just in case. I may say later, "Remember, your coat is here if you get cold." When it was freezing and we were about to walk through a parking lot out in public, and he declined a coat, I explained to him about Children's Services and how other people may worry and report us and why that would not be good. A few times, he still said he wasn't cold enough for a coat, so I carried it very obviously, while he held my hand. If anyone had said anything to me about it, I would have said something like, "I know, he must be really hot blooded! But I have his coat right here. Let's hurry, kids, I'm cold."
Legally parents are required to provide coats for their children, but a lot of parents take it further and think they need to force the kids to wear them whenever the temperature is such that an "authority" or grandmother may think it's chilly. Alot of times the parents themselves don't wear a coat.
Maybe talking about your reasoning and why it's different from the neighbors (in concrete ways, not "because we're unschoolers") it will help smooth things over. If the neighbors hear that you understand their reasoning, they may be more likely to understand yours and not see you as overly permissive and/or neglectful.
maryann
mama to 5 year old and 2 year old
--- In [email protected], Mrs Williams <mrsw5791@...> wrote:
>
> ==What's your goal? that's the part which isn't clear to me. It seems like you're looking for a way to make the situation less awkward ==
>
> Maybe I don't know really what my goal is either. Maybe it's what you say. Maybe I just need to find some sort of peace with the fact that these scenes are inevitable, due to our differences in parenting style. Maybe I'm giving too much thought to an issue that doesn't require that much scrutiny ;-)
> Mette
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>