Bad language - how do I ride this?
Kathryn
Hi All --
My three kiddies Mia (10), Jude (7) and Rueben (4) have never been to school; unschooling for around 5 years. I'm having a lot of issues with bad language of late.
My eldest has always been more receptive to social norms in comparison to her siblings. Both Mia and Jude have picked up some pretty colourful language/sayings from all over. You Tube, movies, games, etc. They use such language in play; sometimes, they will play with such words. Connecting, changing, rhyming bad language, as well as mimicking phrases they get a laugh out of. They understand that certain language is Not appropriate in society. They do throw abuse at each other in the heat of an argument. Mia will use terms such as 'idiot' and 'blondie'. She knows which terms Cut her brother! Jude will throw every swear word he knows at her.
Rueben is 4. He has picked up enough that he will call me/anyone that he disagrees with a M/F idiot. Even the slightest upset gets a harsh, verbal reaction. Today, I tried to console him from a fall from a swing in the p/groud. M/F idiot. He has called me that in the middle of a shopping centre on numerous occasions.
I get that he is not old enough to understand that these words are Not appropriate, and that he is reacting in the heat of the moment with language that he perceives as appropriate, as he sees his siblings react in such a way. I'm So Wired when we go out; careful not to do the 'wrong thing' by him, in fear of his public abuse! I feel like I am walking on egg shells when out and about with Rueben, because he Always expresses his disapproval in such a manner.
I've discussed with the older two how I have no problem with them playing with rude words, but to only do so away from Rueben as he is too little to know these words cannot be used freely in public. This has had No effect on their timing. I feel like a broken record; always harping on to them that they need to Stop! If they stop, Rueben will follow suit. But they are unable to.
How do I ride the rude language? It's easy enough at home, but what about in public places? What should I actually Say to Rueben when he swears in anger at me/his siblings? I'm kind of thinking this may be something I cannot change, but need to ride out in a more peaceful manner.
Thanks in advance,
Kathryn
My three kiddies Mia (10), Jude (7) and Rueben (4) have never been to school; unschooling for around 5 years. I'm having a lot of issues with bad language of late.
My eldest has always been more receptive to social norms in comparison to her siblings. Both Mia and Jude have picked up some pretty colourful language/sayings from all over. You Tube, movies, games, etc. They use such language in play; sometimes, they will play with such words. Connecting, changing, rhyming bad language, as well as mimicking phrases they get a laugh out of. They understand that certain language is Not appropriate in society. They do throw abuse at each other in the heat of an argument. Mia will use terms such as 'idiot' and 'blondie'. She knows which terms Cut her brother! Jude will throw every swear word he knows at her.
Rueben is 4. He has picked up enough that he will call me/anyone that he disagrees with a M/F idiot. Even the slightest upset gets a harsh, verbal reaction. Today, I tried to console him from a fall from a swing in the p/groud. M/F idiot. He has called me that in the middle of a shopping centre on numerous occasions.
I get that he is not old enough to understand that these words are Not appropriate, and that he is reacting in the heat of the moment with language that he perceives as appropriate, as he sees his siblings react in such a way. I'm So Wired when we go out; careful not to do the 'wrong thing' by him, in fear of his public abuse! I feel like I am walking on egg shells when out and about with Rueben, because he Always expresses his disapproval in such a manner.
I've discussed with the older two how I have no problem with them playing with rude words, but to only do so away from Rueben as he is too little to know these words cannot be used freely in public. This has had No effect on their timing. I feel like a broken record; always harping on to them that they need to Stop! If they stop, Rueben will follow suit. But they are unable to.
How do I ride the rude language? It's easy enough at home, but what about in public places? What should I actually Say to Rueben when he swears in anger at me/his siblings? I'm kind of thinking this may be something I cannot change, but need to ride out in a more peaceful manner.
Thanks in advance,
Kathryn
Sandra Dodd
-=-I'm So Wired when we go out; careful not to do the 'wrong thing' by him, in fear of his public abuse! I feel like I am walking on egg shells when out and about with Rueben, because he Always expresses his disapproval in such a manner. -=-
If he had a knife and was stabbing you, would you look for a way to ride out his knife phase in a peaceful manner?
-=- It's easy enough at home, but what about in public places? -=-
It shouldn't have been easy at home. You wrote " Mia will use terms such as 'idiot' and 'blondie'. She knows which terms Cut her brother! "
Cut like a knife?
Hurting another person is not okay.
If someone led you to believe that unschooling involves allowing children to be hurtful to each other, their mother, or strangers, you have been misled.
-=-I get that he is not old enough to understand that these words are Not appropriate-=-
Then he shouldn't be using them at all. Get the older kids to help you change it.
Tell them some kids get their mouths washed out with soap for that language, some adults and other families would NEVER, ever, once let you visit their homes if they heard those words, and that it's not okay for someone on your team to limit your family's access to the world that way.
-=-I've discussed with the older two how I have no problem with them playing with rude words, but to only do so away from Rueben as he is too little to know these words cannot be used freely in public. -=-
They're not playing, though. They're using them to hurt each other, and it's disturbing the peace of your family.
Sandra
If he had a knife and was stabbing you, would you look for a way to ride out his knife phase in a peaceful manner?
-=- It's easy enough at home, but what about in public places? -=-
It shouldn't have been easy at home. You wrote " Mia will use terms such as 'idiot' and 'blondie'. She knows which terms Cut her brother! "
Cut like a knife?
Hurting another person is not okay.
If someone led you to believe that unschooling involves allowing children to be hurtful to each other, their mother, or strangers, you have been misled.
-=-I get that he is not old enough to understand that these words are Not appropriate-=-
Then he shouldn't be using them at all. Get the older kids to help you change it.
Tell them some kids get their mouths washed out with soap for that language, some adults and other families would NEVER, ever, once let you visit their homes if they heard those words, and that it's not okay for someone on your team to limit your family's access to the world that way.
-=-I've discussed with the older two how I have no problem with them playing with rude words, but to only do so away from Rueben as he is too little to know these words cannot be used freely in public. -=-
They're not playing, though. They're using them to hurt each other, and it's disturbing the peace of your family.
Sandra
Maria
I am having a similar problem with my two sons (7 & 9). The cursing started a few months ago when they started watching You Tube clips of mostly teen kids playing video games.
I thought it was a novelty that would wear off over time. I thought they would see that I wasn't making a big deal about them using the words and they would get bored with it. I explained to them that those words were offensive to people and they should be careful when and how they used them.
But, it is getting worse. The cursing is now coming at times of anger, impulsively. It is sometimes aimed at me, but mostly at my husband and to each other when they fight or argue. It is hurtful.
They do not curse in public though. They seem to be able to control it in public places. But they don't fight with each other in public usually like they do at home. It is more intense at home.
I've told them that I will not accept them speaking to us that way. That is is disrespectful, rude and makes us feel bad. But, it continues. I don't know what I should use as a *motivator* to get them to stop. Do I tell them they cannot watch the videos they love to watch any more? Do I give it a day, a week, a month? I know my neighbor has washed her son's mouth out with soap, but I could not do that.
My husband is really upset by the language. It came to a head tonight when my 7 year old told him "Go F*** yourself!" because of a disagreement they had.
My older son now sticks up his middle finger at us, but also sometimes at himself. He'll say "F*** ME!" when he thinks he has done something wrong.
They are both very impulsive and have bad tempers, in general. For most of their lives I have had to help them come down from a crazed place of intense anger. The outbursts are certainly fewer and farther between since we have been unschooling. (about a year)
Their cursing is disrupting the household. My daughter and husband are both very upset by it, and I don't know how to get them to stop.
I thought it was a novelty that would wear off over time. I thought they would see that I wasn't making a big deal about them using the words and they would get bored with it. I explained to them that those words were offensive to people and they should be careful when and how they used them.
But, it is getting worse. The cursing is now coming at times of anger, impulsively. It is sometimes aimed at me, but mostly at my husband and to each other when they fight or argue. It is hurtful.
They do not curse in public though. They seem to be able to control it in public places. But they don't fight with each other in public usually like they do at home. It is more intense at home.
I've told them that I will not accept them speaking to us that way. That is is disrespectful, rude and makes us feel bad. But, it continues. I don't know what I should use as a *motivator* to get them to stop. Do I tell them they cannot watch the videos they love to watch any more? Do I give it a day, a week, a month? I know my neighbor has washed her son's mouth out with soap, but I could not do that.
My husband is really upset by the language. It came to a head tonight when my 7 year old told him "Go F*** yourself!" because of a disagreement they had.
My older son now sticks up his middle finger at us, but also sometimes at himself. He'll say "F*** ME!" when he thinks he has done something wrong.
They are both very impulsive and have bad tempers, in general. For most of their lives I have had to help them come down from a crazed place of intense anger. The outbursts are certainly fewer and farther between since we have been unschooling. (about a year)
Their cursing is disrupting the household. My daughter and husband are both very upset by it, and I don't know how to get them to stop.
Kathryn
Sandra said: "Hurting another person is not okay.
If someone led you to believe that unschooling involves allowing children to be
hurtful to each other, their mother, or strangers, you have been misled."
I have made it Very Clear to (the older two) that it is Not OK to talk in such a hurtful way, but it continues. That such language is hurtful and rude to others; I feel it myself. To clarify, I do intervene at home; I should not have stated that I ride it out. I was more hoping to explain that I better handle it at home as others are not subject to it. I have explained to the older two that they Must stop; it is hurtful and Not OK. I've made it clear to them the 'knock-on' effect; if they stop, Rueben Will naturally follow suit. It has gotten to the point that I told Jude he will lose a dollar from his pocket money every time he doesn't Stop when asked to Stop. I explained to him that he Must Stop his hurtful language. He told me to say, "a dollar" instead of "stop." He invisions a wall that he must pay $1.00 to get past to swear. I often think "what is the better choice?" and I cannot think of anything better. The threat of losing his money is the only thing that gets his attention in the heat of the moment. I'm really at a loss!
The other thing I have done is leave Rueben with their Dad in the evenings when I go shopping with the older two. All three kiddies prefer to be with me, and we enjoy our shopping experiences. I left Rueben screaming (in a safe place) at the window for me. It was Hard for me, but again, I determined this was the better choice over him (possibly) swear at me or his siblings in public. What would others do? I really want some more options thrown my way, not only on ways to avoid the (at present) inevitable swearing/abuse, but also to encourage the older two to Stop.
Thanks again,
Kathryn
If someone led you to believe that unschooling involves allowing children to be
hurtful to each other, their mother, or strangers, you have been misled."
I have made it Very Clear to (the older two) that it is Not OK to talk in such a hurtful way, but it continues. That such language is hurtful and rude to others; I feel it myself. To clarify, I do intervene at home; I should not have stated that I ride it out. I was more hoping to explain that I better handle it at home as others are not subject to it. I have explained to the older two that they Must stop; it is hurtful and Not OK. I've made it clear to them the 'knock-on' effect; if they stop, Rueben Will naturally follow suit. It has gotten to the point that I told Jude he will lose a dollar from his pocket money every time he doesn't Stop when asked to Stop. I explained to him that he Must Stop his hurtful language. He told me to say, "a dollar" instead of "stop." He invisions a wall that he must pay $1.00 to get past to swear. I often think "what is the better choice?" and I cannot think of anything better. The threat of losing his money is the only thing that gets his attention in the heat of the moment. I'm really at a loss!
The other thing I have done is leave Rueben with their Dad in the evenings when I go shopping with the older two. All three kiddies prefer to be with me, and we enjoy our shopping experiences. I left Rueben screaming (in a safe place) at the window for me. It was Hard for me, but again, I determined this was the better choice over him (possibly) swear at me or his siblings in public. What would others do? I really want some more options thrown my way, not only on ways to avoid the (at present) inevitable swearing/abuse, but also to encourage the older two to Stop.
Thanks again,
Kathryn
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-I'm So Wired when we go out; careful not to do the 'wrong thing' by him, in fear of his public abuse! I feel like I am walking on egg shells when out and about with Rueben, because he Always expresses his disapproval in such a manner. -=-
>
> If he had a knife and was stabbing you, would you look for a way to ride out his knife phase in a peaceful manner?
>
> -=- It's easy enough at home, but what about in public places? -=-
>
> It shouldn't have been easy at home. You wrote " Mia will use terms such as 'idiot' and 'blondie'. She knows which terms Cut her brother! "
>
> Cut like a knife?
>
> Hurting another person is not okay.
> If someone led you to believe that unschooling involves allowing children to be hurtful to each other, their mother, or strangers, you have been misled.
>
> -=-I get that he is not old enough to understand that these words are Not appropriate-=-
> Then he shouldn't be using them at all. Get the older kids to help you change it.
> Tell them some kids get their mouths washed out with soap for that language, some adults and other families would NEVER, ever, once let you visit their homes if they heard those words, and that it's not okay for someone on your team to limit your family's access to the world that way.
>
> -=-I've discussed with the older two how I have no problem with them playing with rude words, but to only do so away from Rueben as he is too little to know these words cannot be used freely in public. -=-
>
> They're not playing, though. They're using them to hurt each other, and it's disturbing the peace of your family.
>
> Sandra
>
Joyce Fetteroll
On Apr 17, 2012, at 5:20 AM, Kathryn wrote:
It sounds like they've built up emotion and are releasing it like a balloon that's too full that it bursts.
You're trying to convince them to stop as though they're making rational decisions to swear. It's like putting duct tape on the balloon so it stops bursting. You need to stop it from filling.
Be more present to change and defuse situations before they get to that point.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I have made it Very Clear to (the older two) that it isWhat would you do if they were punching and kicking each other?
> Not OK to talk in such a hurtful way, but it continues.
It sounds like they've built up emotion and are releasing it like a balloon that's too full that it bursts.
You're trying to convince them to stop as though they're making rational decisions to swear. It's like putting duct tape on the balloon so it stops bursting. You need to stop it from filling.
Be more present to change and defuse situations before they get to that point.
> He told me to say, "a dollar" instead of "stop."I think that's very insightful of him. It's saying he can't even hear stop he's so caught up in the emotions. If he can't hear stop, words aren't working. Be there before it gets to that point.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
> The cursing is now coming at times of anger, impulsively.There is colorful language. And there is hurtful language. It's being lumped together in a box called "swearing" and people are looking for one approach to it all.
> It is sometimes aimed at me, but mostly at my husband and to
> each other when they fight or argue. It is hurtful.
Sometimes kids play with a spicy vocabulary that doesn't hurt anyone. It's the equivalent of drawing pictures of things exploding.
Sometimes kids use words to hurt. These kids are hurting people. It's no different than hitting and punching. It should be treated the same as kids who are physically hurting each other.
The tension is being allowed to build up beyond the point where the kids can handle it in kind ways. And they are showing they aren't able to stop it or deal with it except by exploding. It's up to mom to get to it before it gets that far.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Dola Dasgupta
Yes getting there before it gets to an explosion and diffusing. I
often do this. After diffusion we try and find out the unmet needs
that was causing the bomb to tick. As a mom being consistent with this
has helped us a lot. Dola.
often do this. After diffusion we try and find out the unmet needs
that was causing the bomb to tick. As a mom being consistent with this
has helped us a lot. Dola.
On 4/17/12, Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...> wrote:
>
> On Apr 17, 2012, at 5:20 AM, Kathryn wrote:
>
>> I have made it Very Clear to (the older two) that it is
>> Not OK to talk in such a hurtful way, but it continues.
>
> What would you do if they were punching and kicking each other?
>
> It sounds like they've built up emotion and are releasing it like a balloon
> that's too full that it bursts.
>
> You're trying to convince them to stop as though they're making rational
> decisions to swear. It's like putting duct tape on the balloon so it stops
> bursting. You need to stop it from filling.
>
> Be more present to change and defuse situations before they get to that
> point.
>
>> He told me to say, "a dollar" instead of "stop."
>
> I think that's very insightful of him. It's saying he can't even hear stop
> he's so caught up in the emotions. If he can't hear stop, words aren't
> working. Be there before it gets to that point.
>
> Joyce
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
--
thou-art-thy-creator
http://thouartthycreator.wordpress.com/
*"Be kind to yourself and others,*
*Come from love every moment you can,*
*Speak of love with others. Remind each other of your spiritual purpose,*
*Never give up hope,*
*Know that you are loved." - Deepak Chopra from Love Sutras...*
*
*
*'Laughter we share generates more laughter, and the love we create
together spreads by leaps and bounds.' *
*
*
*Much love and warmth*
* Dola Dasgupta*
Maria
--The tension is being allowed to build up beyond the point where the kids can
handle it in kind ways. And they are showing they aren't able to stop it or deal
with it except by exploding. It's up to mom to get to it before it gets that
far.--
That is not the case in this situation. It is quick, honestly, like a switch. There is no" build up'. It could be because of a computer maufunction, another player on a game being unfair, a word that was said that one of the boys took the wrong way... It's like the anger is always brewing right under the surface and the thing that sets them off isn't always predictable.
Everyone is seemingly having a great time and the situation takes a turn in a split second. We have all come a long way though. The outbursts used to be more violent and people WERE getting hurt.
Interestingly, as I was writing my post last night, my son asked me what I was doing and I told him. I'm hoping this will open a dialogue about the situation that might lead to a resolution.
handle it in kind ways. And they are showing they aren't able to stop it or deal
with it except by exploding. It's up to mom to get to it before it gets that
far.--
That is not the case in this situation. It is quick, honestly, like a switch. There is no" build up'. It could be because of a computer maufunction, another player on a game being unfair, a word that was said that one of the boys took the wrong way... It's like the anger is always brewing right under the surface and the thing that sets them off isn't always predictable.
Everyone is seemingly having a great time and the situation takes a turn in a split second. We have all come a long way though. The outbursts used to be more violent and people WERE getting hurt.
Interestingly, as I was writing my post last night, my son asked me what I was doing and I told him. I'm hoping this will open a dialogue about the situation that might lead to a resolution.
teresa
--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...> wrote:
If your older son is OK hearing "a dollar" near a swear word, then maybe he'd be OK hearing "breathe" or "slow down" when you notice him getting tense, or when the older sister has said something you know is a trigger. (Might buy you some time to handle it with her, too.)
Or maybe you could do a little investigation on how other cultures have handled anger management historically. Or maybe a brain diagram, showing how thoughts happen in the front of the brain and angry outbursts happen from the back-bottom. (Calming down and breathing is one way to get from the back-bottom to the top so you can problem-solve and communicate again.) You could be offering options to them, letting them know that you understand the feeling and the impulse, and that you're supporting them in finding non-hurtful ways of dealing with it.
~Teresa
>Kathryn, I wonder if you told your older two that this is what angry swearing is like for most of us. Maybe help them visualize their anger balloon inflating? Sandra gave me some advice recently on my own 6 year old's angry outbursts (that included insults and name-calling) to coach him how to breath to calm down at the first hint of things getting ugly. These two images might work nicely together when you guys talk about it, maybe at a really calm time when no fights have recently happened--the breathing takes the air out of the angry balloon.
> It sounds like they've built up emotion and are releasing it like a balloon that's too full that it bursts.
>
>
> Joyce
>
If your older son is OK hearing "a dollar" near a swear word, then maybe he'd be OK hearing "breathe" or "slow down" when you notice him getting tense, or when the older sister has said something you know is a trigger. (Might buy you some time to handle it with her, too.)
Or maybe you could do a little investigation on how other cultures have handled anger management historically. Or maybe a brain diagram, showing how thoughts happen in the front of the brain and angry outbursts happen from the back-bottom. (Calming down and breathing is one way to get from the back-bottom to the top so you can problem-solve and communicate again.) You could be offering options to them, letting them know that you understand the feeling and the impulse, and that you're supporting them in finding non-hurtful ways of dealing with it.
~Teresa
>
Sandra Dodd
-=-They do not curse in public though. They seem to be able to control it in public places. But they don't fight with each other in public usually like they do at home. It is more intense at home.-=-
You've made a rule and not a principle, if "the rule" is that they don't do it in public. And they shouldn't need to be "controlling it." They should be making choices.
This was a VERY BAD CHOICE:
-=-My husband is really upset by the language. It came to a head tonight when my 7 year old told him "Go F*** yourself!" because of a disagreement they had.-=-
I doubt your seven year old knows what the word means. Would it be too cruel to take him privately aside and tell him he had just commanded that his father put his own penis in his own butt? It depends on the child, but if it were me and a child of mine had said that, I would have taken him in another room and gotten a bit graphic, and told him NEVER to say that to anyone again, because he could be hit in the face or killed if he grew up and said that to someone, and he needed to stop, now.
-=-My older son now sticks up his middle finger at us, but also sometimes at himself. -=-
Never, ever would I allow another person to do that to me if it wasn't in the sweetest most joking once-because-it-was-funny-at-the-time way.
I think perhaps you should get a friend to talk to them if you can't figure out how to do it. An intervention.
Somehow you gave them permission to be vile. I hope you weren't using unschooling as an excuse to do that.
-=- The cursing started a few months ago when they started watching You Tube clips of mostly teen kids playing video games. -=-
Maybe you could tell them they need to wait until they're grown to decide whether to use that language, but they need to NOT use it at your house, or while they live with you, because what they do reflects on your family, and if they're going to be part of the family, the need to not be nasty.
-=- I don't know what I should use as a *motivator* to get them to stop. Do I tell them they cannot watch the videos they love to watch any more? -=-
You could say (though it's a little late) that they can only watch those videos if they aren't hurting the peace of your home. If they repeat from it, they can't watch them. Enforcement would be hard at this point.
I took my kids to see the South Park Movie when it was new and in the theater, but I didn't want them repeating or singing any of the stuff outside, because I didn't want to be in trouble with anyone for taking them, and I didn't want them to offend anyone. So before we went, they promised to keep it quiet around anyone else. And they were so good at that that my husband (who was working in another city at the time) didn't hear a word from any of them, even when he visited. He went to see it in Minneapolis when it was at the dollar theater (late in the run, discount) and was surprised that it was a musical. Ordinarily, here, if there's a new song they're singing it. But they didn't. The combination of factors that made that work at our house started early. We worked as a team from their infancy, and they trusted us to do things for them and we trusted them to make concessions--to be quiet late at night, to be discreet.
-=-Do I give it a day, a week, a month?-=-
No. Tell them you made a mistake in letting it go, and they've gone WAY past the line and it has to stop.
-=- I know my neighbor has washed her son's mouth out with soap, but I could not do that.-=-
I hope her son didn't get the words from copying your kids.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
You've made a rule and not a principle, if "the rule" is that they don't do it in public. And they shouldn't need to be "controlling it." They should be making choices.
This was a VERY BAD CHOICE:
-=-My husband is really upset by the language. It came to a head tonight when my 7 year old told him "Go F*** yourself!" because of a disagreement they had.-=-
I doubt your seven year old knows what the word means. Would it be too cruel to take him privately aside and tell him he had just commanded that his father put his own penis in his own butt? It depends on the child, but if it were me and a child of mine had said that, I would have taken him in another room and gotten a bit graphic, and told him NEVER to say that to anyone again, because he could be hit in the face or killed if he grew up and said that to someone, and he needed to stop, now.
-=-My older son now sticks up his middle finger at us, but also sometimes at himself. -=-
Never, ever would I allow another person to do that to me if it wasn't in the sweetest most joking once-because-it-was-funny-at-the-time way.
I think perhaps you should get a friend to talk to them if you can't figure out how to do it. An intervention.
Somehow you gave them permission to be vile. I hope you weren't using unschooling as an excuse to do that.
-=- The cursing started a few months ago when they started watching You Tube clips of mostly teen kids playing video games. -=-
Maybe you could tell them they need to wait until they're grown to decide whether to use that language, but they need to NOT use it at your house, or while they live with you, because what they do reflects on your family, and if they're going to be part of the family, the need to not be nasty.
-=- I don't know what I should use as a *motivator* to get them to stop. Do I tell them they cannot watch the videos they love to watch any more? -=-
You could say (though it's a little late) that they can only watch those videos if they aren't hurting the peace of your home. If they repeat from it, they can't watch them. Enforcement would be hard at this point.
I took my kids to see the South Park Movie when it was new and in the theater, but I didn't want them repeating or singing any of the stuff outside, because I didn't want to be in trouble with anyone for taking them, and I didn't want them to offend anyone. So before we went, they promised to keep it quiet around anyone else. And they were so good at that that my husband (who was working in another city at the time) didn't hear a word from any of them, even when he visited. He went to see it in Minneapolis when it was at the dollar theater (late in the run, discount) and was surprised that it was a musical. Ordinarily, here, if there's a new song they're singing it. But they didn't. The combination of factors that made that work at our house started early. We worked as a team from their infancy, and they trusted us to do things for them and we trusted them to make concessions--to be quiet late at night, to be discreet.
-=-Do I give it a day, a week, a month?-=-
No. Tell them you made a mistake in letting it go, and they've gone WAY past the line and it has to stop.
-=- I know my neighbor has washed her son's mouth out with soap, but I could not do that.-=-
I hope her son didn't get the words from copying your kids.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I have made it Very Clear to (the older two) that it is Not OK to talk in such a hurtful way, but it continues. -=-
Clearly it wasn't made clear, then.
To think your lecture is clear is like saying "I taught them that it is not ok."
If they didn't learn it, you taught nothing.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Clearly it wasn't made clear, then.
To think your lecture is clear is like saying "I taught them that it is not ok."
If they didn't learn it, you taught nothing.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-> He told me to say, "a dollar" instead of "stop."
-=-I think that's very insightful of him. It's saying he can't even hear stop he's so caught up in the emotions. If he can't hear stop, words aren't working. Be there before it gets to that point.-=-
Joyce says it's insightful.
I think it's bullshit.
It could be both.
It sounds to me like he's saying he doesn't care what you say, that he will listen to you on his terms only, if he listens at all.
Joyce is right about the emotion, though. If they're quick to anger, that's where the attention should go--not at what happens when they're beyond the ability to hear.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-=-I think that's very insightful of him. It's saying he can't even hear stop he's so caught up in the emotions. If he can't hear stop, words aren't working. Be there before it gets to that point.-=-
Joyce says it's insightful.
I think it's bullshit.
It could be both.
It sounds to me like he's saying he doesn't care what you say, that he will listen to you on his terms only, if he listens at all.
Joyce is right about the emotion, though. If they're quick to anger, that's where the attention should go--not at what happens when they're beyond the ability to hear.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Bad language - how do I ride this?-=-
Why would you "ride it"? Someone has given you some very bad advice in the past, I fear.
-=-That is not the case in this situation. It is quick, honestly, like a switch. -=-
This is (under the circumstances) kind of rude. People are offering you free help for a serious problem, and you're batting it away.
Worse than that, you contradict yourself and make them right in the very same post:
-=-It's like the anger is always brewing right under the surface and the thing that sets them off isn't always predictable.-=-
-=-Everyone is seemingly having a great time and the situation takes a turn in a split second. -=- "Anger brewing under the surface" is telling. And "seemingly having a great time" written by a mom who also believes anger is brewing under the surface makes you an accomplice in the outbursts, doesn't it?
-=-Interestingly, as I was writing my post last night, my son asked me what I was doing and I told him. I'm hoping this will open a dialogue about the situation that might lead to a resolution.-=-
That could be really helpful. Read him what I wrote. I'd tell him to his face, too, that if he ever said anything like "go fuck yourself" to MY husband, I would throw your whole family out of my house in a heartbeat.
If you can remain calm while they're using language like that even on each other, you're misunderstanding the severity of the situation. It could affect your marriage. It could draw the attention of social workers who would consider it neglectful, the combination of not having them in school and letting them use that language on their own father.
Instead of telling anyone here that they're wrong and you're right, that you've made it clear to the boys, that they are NOT building up to anger, please do this:
Read a little, try a little, wait a while, watch.
Sandrah
Why would you "ride it"? Someone has given you some very bad advice in the past, I fear.
-=-That is not the case in this situation. It is quick, honestly, like a switch. -=-
This is (under the circumstances) kind of rude. People are offering you free help for a serious problem, and you're batting it away.
Worse than that, you contradict yourself and make them right in the very same post:
-=-It's like the anger is always brewing right under the surface and the thing that sets them off isn't always predictable.-=-
-=-Everyone is seemingly having a great time and the situation takes a turn in a split second. -=- "Anger brewing under the surface" is telling. And "seemingly having a great time" written by a mom who also believes anger is brewing under the surface makes you an accomplice in the outbursts, doesn't it?
-=-Interestingly, as I was writing my post last night, my son asked me what I was doing and I told him. I'm hoping this will open a dialogue about the situation that might lead to a resolution.-=-
That could be really helpful. Read him what I wrote. I'd tell him to his face, too, that if he ever said anything like "go fuck yourself" to MY husband, I would throw your whole family out of my house in a heartbeat.
If you can remain calm while they're using language like that even on each other, you're misunderstanding the severity of the situation. It could affect your marriage. It could draw the attention of social workers who would consider it neglectful, the combination of not having them in school and letting them use that language on their own father.
Instead of telling anyone here that they're wrong and you're right, that you've made it clear to the boys, that they are NOT building up to anger, please do this:
Read a little, try a little, wait a while, watch.
Sandrah
Lyla
joyce wrote:
in the past, when there has been more anger in our home, he HAS sworn to hurt people. address the anger, create a peaceful home, get to things before they escalate, and then words are just words and not inherently hurtful. if the anger is seemingly erupting out of nowhere, it is more difficult to anticipate - but it's NOT actually out of nowhere. as you said, it's bubbling under the surface. so quell the bubbling, figure out the source(s). not watching youtube or south park might limit usage of certain words, but the anger will still be there, and the underlying anger is the bigger problem.
also, i don't think sandra was suggesting anyone wash anyone's mouth out with soap! just mentioning that some parents do that. it's not a GOOD choice for a parent to do that, but it's the reaction swearing gets from some people.
lyla
>exactly! my son uses LOTS of colorful language, watches south park, etc etc.- but he uses that language with his (other unschooler) friends, as do they with him. it's completely consensual, not used to hurt anyone, and not said in anger. i swear a lot more than some people too.
> There is colorful language. And there is hurtful language. It's being lumped together in a box called "swearing" and people are looking for one approach to it all.
>
> Sometimes kids play with a spicy vocabulary that doesn't hurt anyone. It's the equivalent of drawing pictures of things exploding.
>
> Sometimes kids use words to hurt. These kids are hurting people. It's no different than hitting and punching. It should be treated the same as kids who are physically hurting each other."
in the past, when there has been more anger in our home, he HAS sworn to hurt people. address the anger, create a peaceful home, get to things before they escalate, and then words are just words and not inherently hurtful. if the anger is seemingly erupting out of nowhere, it is more difficult to anticipate - but it's NOT actually out of nowhere. as you said, it's bubbling under the surface. so quell the bubbling, figure out the source(s). not watching youtube or south park might limit usage of certain words, but the anger will still be there, and the underlying anger is the bigger problem.
also, i don't think sandra was suggesting anyone wash anyone's mouth out with soap! just mentioning that some parents do that. it's not a GOOD choice for a parent to do that, but it's the reaction swearing gets from some people.
lyla
Sandra Dodd
-=-also, i don't think sandra was suggesting anyone wash anyone's mouth out with soap! just mentioning that some parents do that. it's not a GOOD choice for a parent to do that, but it's the reaction swearing gets from some people. -=-
I was suggesting the parent inform the child that in some families (in this case, apparently, right next door) that's what parents do.
Not in an "ain't I cool?" way, but in a "This is very serious" way.
Sandra
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I was suggesting the parent inform the child that in some families (in this case, apparently, right next door) that's what parents do.
Not in an "ain't I cool?" way, but in a "This is very serious" way.
Sandra
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Evelyn Callioux
I don't think I have posted here before, been lurking past couple years and find the discussions here very helpful and thought-provoking. In our family we dealt with 'colourful' language by talking at calm moments about why people use these words, how does it feel when you use them, how will other people view you if you talk that way, what other things could you do when you are angry/frustrated etc..I also shared my own experience as a young person I had a very foul mouth and it was mostly trying to hit out and shock people, and how that affected my life and thinking. this seemed to work for us, my boys (now in their 20's) rarely swore around me or other adults, or their younger sister, altho I know they did around their friends as teens, and I was ok with that :)
--- In [email protected], Dola Dasgupta <doladg@...> wrote:
>
> Yes getting there before it gets to an explosion and diffusing. I
> often do this. After diffusion we try and find out the unmet needs
> that was causing the bomb to tick. As a mom being consistent with this
Meredith
"Maria" <kansymaria@...> wrote:
It sounds like they've learned to hold in their feelings until they "burst" - and now things are improving, they don't have as much to be angry and frustrated about since you've started unschooling, but they haven't learned new tools yet. Plus, there's probably old resentments simmering under the surface, too. Those are all things to look for ways of addressing - That's the tension which is being allowed to build. You're only seeing "last straws" and need to start getting into the backlog of hale bales, as it were.
Be close and spread lots of love and care and support. That's not to say shrug off hurtful language! But do notice when it's deliberately hurtful and when it's an expression of frustration - they're different situations with different underlying problems.
As for the language itself, it sometimes helps to have Something Else to yell, especially for expressing frustration. Silly made-up curses can work for that - I know families which have used "Spongebob swear words" like barnacles! and Tarter sauce! Personally, I go for things like Ding, dang, dong! and Arglebargle! Shouting something in a moment of stress does one Good thing, which is to create a big exhalation of breath - which then lets you take a good, deep breath afterwards.
---Meredith
>> We have all come a long way though. The outbursts used to be more violent and people WERE getting hurt.*******************
It sounds like they've learned to hold in their feelings until they "burst" - and now things are improving, they don't have as much to be angry and frustrated about since you've started unschooling, but they haven't learned new tools yet. Plus, there's probably old resentments simmering under the surface, too. Those are all things to look for ways of addressing - That's the tension which is being allowed to build. You're only seeing "last straws" and need to start getting into the backlog of hale bales, as it were.
>>It is quick, honestly, like a switch. There is no" build up'. It could be because of a computer maufunction, another player on a game being unfair, a word that was said that one of the boys took the wrong way...***************
Be close and spread lots of love and care and support. That's not to say shrug off hurtful language! But do notice when it's deliberately hurtful and when it's an expression of frustration - they're different situations with different underlying problems.
As for the language itself, it sometimes helps to have Something Else to yell, especially for expressing frustration. Silly made-up curses can work for that - I know families which have used "Spongebob swear words" like barnacles! and Tarter sauce! Personally, I go for things like Ding, dang, dong! and Arglebargle! Shouting something in a moment of stress does one Good thing, which is to create a big exhalation of breath - which then lets you take a good, deep breath afterwards.
---Meredith
JustSayin
To add an example to what Joyce and Lyla said, there is a distinction, in my view, between using colorful language in play with friends or even to express anger or frustration, and using it to hurt people.
My younger son started swearing when he was two years old. Obviously
he heard it from us (I guess we swear more than we realize), because his older brother didn't swear until he was about 9 years old. He has always used it in context (for example, where's my f-ing binky) and makes it his business to know every "bad" word there is.
This language thing is just part of who my younger son is. Occasionally he'll use it to be hurtful to his brother (who gives it right back), but never to us. I am always there to help navigate those times when they "attack" each other with words.
When my youngest was about 3, he dropped the F-bomb several times while we were shopping at Michael's (craft store). It was horrifying (to me). It wasn't directed at me, he was just kind of throwing it out there. Over and over again. Eventually I stopped taking him shopping with me. Rather than set him (and me) up for failure, I just stopped taking him - not as a punishment, he really doesn't like being dragged out shopping anyway. I was lucky enough to have DH available to stay with him if I needed to go out for something.
Mostly he just loves the words. I don't know if he loves the power he feels from them, or the way they sound, or what they mean (he always asks me for a deifinition) or what exactly it is. But he uses them, combines them, says some stuff I can't believe is coming out of my (now) 8 year old's mouth. Never directed at me or my DH, though I cannot honestly say that has never happened.
If it did happen, we could usually recognize why, and as someone said, we tried to create a more peaceful, understanding environment (changed what was underneath). I'm not saying it's all happy sunshine all the time, but he does not feel a need to direct his cursing at us in a hurtful way.
We spent many years trying to change him, all the while (now when I see it in retrospect) making him feel bad about who he is. Finally we just embraced it as part of who he is. He actually comes up with some pretty funny stuff sometimes. Not sure everyone would think so, but we can't help but laugh.
I think what I am trying to say is trying to control this if it's just part of who your kids are right now may be nearly impossible. Hoping it's a phase that will stop so you get the end result that you want may not be realistic. Make sure your youngest (and elders) is/are understood without having to call you M/Fers, keep explaining that most people (maybe including you) are offended by this language (I have had lots of talks with my kids about this, from early on, and they get it, they don't curse in public or with friends that don't use such language), and keep insisting that it is not helping their cause to direct language at you or your DH. Cursing in a hurtful way to friends on Skype will have it's own consequence (friends won't want to connect any more).
After our experiences with this, saying "no swearing, period", especially if it's in your own home or in their own spaces is just not realistic. Bribing and punishing doesn't work. Possibly you could just not take the 4 year old shopping with you (not as a punishment, but just until he gets the hang of the "not in public" thing).
The kids watch you tube videos that have this language in them, and the videos are engaging and funny (I've watched many of them with my boys, and I think they are funny too). Your older kids are just emulating that. They will understand the distinction (hurtful vs. entertaining) more over time and with your help, and will probably find it "unecessary" to curse eventually. I don't think it is possible to stop your older kids form cursing around your 4 year old. You may have use your energy gently helping the 4 year old understand what language is OK to use in public or with friends rather than try to punish the elders into stopping when they are around him.
--Melissa
My younger son started swearing when he was two years old. Obviously
he heard it from us (I guess we swear more than we realize), because his older brother didn't swear until he was about 9 years old. He has always used it in context (for example, where's my f-ing binky) and makes it his business to know every "bad" word there is.
This language thing is just part of who my younger son is. Occasionally he'll use it to be hurtful to his brother (who gives it right back), but never to us. I am always there to help navigate those times when they "attack" each other with words.
When my youngest was about 3, he dropped the F-bomb several times while we were shopping at Michael's (craft store). It was horrifying (to me). It wasn't directed at me, he was just kind of throwing it out there. Over and over again. Eventually I stopped taking him shopping with me. Rather than set him (and me) up for failure, I just stopped taking him - not as a punishment, he really doesn't like being dragged out shopping anyway. I was lucky enough to have DH available to stay with him if I needed to go out for something.
Mostly he just loves the words. I don't know if he loves the power he feels from them, or the way they sound, or what they mean (he always asks me for a deifinition) or what exactly it is. But he uses them, combines them, says some stuff I can't believe is coming out of my (now) 8 year old's mouth. Never directed at me or my DH, though I cannot honestly say that has never happened.
If it did happen, we could usually recognize why, and as someone said, we tried to create a more peaceful, understanding environment (changed what was underneath). I'm not saying it's all happy sunshine all the time, but he does not feel a need to direct his cursing at us in a hurtful way.
We spent many years trying to change him, all the while (now when I see it in retrospect) making him feel bad about who he is. Finally we just embraced it as part of who he is. He actually comes up with some pretty funny stuff sometimes. Not sure everyone would think so, but we can't help but laugh.
I think what I am trying to say is trying to control this if it's just part of who your kids are right now may be nearly impossible. Hoping it's a phase that will stop so you get the end result that you want may not be realistic. Make sure your youngest (and elders) is/are understood without having to call you M/Fers, keep explaining that most people (maybe including you) are offended by this language (I have had lots of talks with my kids about this, from early on, and they get it, they don't curse in public or with friends that don't use such language), and keep insisting that it is not helping their cause to direct language at you or your DH. Cursing in a hurtful way to friends on Skype will have it's own consequence (friends won't want to connect any more).
After our experiences with this, saying "no swearing, period", especially if it's in your own home or in their own spaces is just not realistic. Bribing and punishing doesn't work. Possibly you could just not take the 4 year old shopping with you (not as a punishment, but just until he gets the hang of the "not in public" thing).
The kids watch you tube videos that have this language in them, and the videos are engaging and funny (I've watched many of them with my boys, and I think they are funny too). Your older kids are just emulating that. They will understand the distinction (hurtful vs. entertaining) more over time and with your help, and will probably find it "unecessary" to curse eventually. I don't think it is possible to stop your older kids form cursing around your 4 year old. You may have use your energy gently helping the 4 year old understand what language is OK to use in public or with friends rather than try to punish the elders into stopping when they are around him.
--Melissa
--- In [email protected], "Lyla" <lylaw@...> wrote:
>
> joyce wrote:
> >
> > There is colorful language. And there is hurtful language. It's being lumped together in a box called "swearing" and people are looking for one approach to it all.
> >
> > Sometimes kids play with a spicy vocabulary that doesn't hurt anyone. It's the equivalent of drawing pictures of things exploding.
> >
> > Sometimes kids use words to hurt. These kids are hurting people. It's no different than hitting and punching. It should be treated the same as kids who are physically hurting each other."
>
>
> exactly! my son uses LOTS of colorful language, watches south park, etc etc.- but he uses that language with his (other unschooler) friends, as do they with him. it's completely consensual, not used to hurt anyone, and not said in anger. i swear a lot more than some people too.
>
> in the past, when there has been more anger in our home, he HAS sworn to hurt people. address the anger, create a peaceful home, get to things before they escalate, and then words are just words and not inherently hurtful. if the anger is seemingly erupting out of nowhere, it is more difficult to anticipate - but it's NOT actually out of nowhere. as you said, it's bubbling under the surface. so quell the bubbling, figure out the source(s). not watching youtube or south park might limit usage of certain words, but the anger will still be there, and the underlying anger is the bigger problem.
>
> also, i don't think sandra was suggesting anyone wash anyone's mouth out with soap! just mentioning that some parents do that. it's not a GOOD choice for a parent to do that, but it's the reaction swearing gets from some people.
>
>
> lyla
>
Sandra Dodd
-=-I think what I am trying to say is trying to control this if it's just part of who your kids are right now may be nearly impossible.-=-
Teamwork might help--seeing him (helping him see himself) as a part of a team, where points made or lost reflect on, glorify, harm the whole team might help.
When he says "fuck" at Michaels, then you (the mom) are the mother of a child who says "fuck" at Michael's.
If that doesn't embarrass you, that's up to you. I wouldn't personally like to hear it as another customer, or an employee. It invades other people's rights and privacy.
I don't think "trying to control" it is the answer, nor is totally accepting it as just no big deal.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Teamwork might help--seeing him (helping him see himself) as a part of a team, where points made or lost reflect on, glorify, harm the whole team might help.
When he says "fuck" at Michaels, then you (the mom) are the mother of a child who says "fuck" at Michael's.
If that doesn't embarrass you, that's up to you. I wouldn't personally like to hear it as another customer, or an employee. It invades other people's rights and privacy.
I don't think "trying to control" it is the answer, nor is totally accepting it as just no big deal.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
mitrisue
I grew up in a family where swearing was acceptable as long as it felt funloving and not hurtful to anyone involved. Based on my experience with that, in our family we've talked about "public" and "private" words and why we'd avoid saying private words in public out of consideration for other people.
Recently, I asked my son (7) to be "public" around my daughter (3) in his word choice because it seemed like she was going to pick up the words without distinguishing how to use them. He did that, and it seems to be working fine.
Julie
Recently, I asked my son (7) to be "public" around my daughter (3) in his word choice because it seemed like she was going to pick up the words without distinguishing how to use them. He did that, and it seems to be working fine.
Julie
debwal777
I'm new here but had to jump in. I read all the replies and there's something I can't get my head around. Don't we want to teach our children manners and politeness? I don't understand why it's okay for them to cuss like sailors if they're just having fun but not when they're angry. By allowing that you're telling them that it's okay to swear. And they will grow up to be swearing adults. I'm just confused, maybe someone can explain the benefit of encouraging swearing among siblings and friends.
--- In [email protected], "Kathryn" <freetobe@...> wrote:
>
> Hi All --
>
> My three kiddies Mia (10), Jude (7) and Rueben (4) have never been to school; unschooling for around 5 years. I'm having a lot of issues with bad language of late.
>
> My eldest has always been more receptive to social norms in comparison to her siblings. Both Mia and Jude have picked up some pretty colourful language/sayings from all over. You Tube, movies, games, etc. They use such language in play; sometimes, they will play with such words. Connecting, changing, rhyming bad language, as well as mimicking phrases they get a laugh out of. They understand that certain language is Not appropriate in society. They do throw abuse at each other in the heat of an argument. Mia will use terms such as 'idiot' and 'blondie'. She knows which terms Cut her brother! Jude will throw every swear word he knows at her.
>
> Rueben is 4. He has picked up enough that he will call me/anyone that he disagrees with a M/F idiot. Even the slightest upset gets a harsh, verbal reaction. Today, I tried to console him from a fall from a swing in the p/groud. M/F idiot. He has called me that in the middle of a shopping centre on numerous occasions.
>
> I get that he is not old enough to understand that these words are Not appropriate, and that he is reacting in the heat of the moment with language that he perceives as appropriate, as he sees his siblings react in such a way. I'm So Wired when we go out; careful not to do the 'wrong thing' by him, in fear of his public abuse! I feel like I am walking on egg shells when out and about with Rueben, because he Always expresses his disapproval in such a manner.
>
> I've discussed with the older two how I have no problem with them playing with rude words, but to only do so away from Rueben as he is too little to know these words cannot be used freely in public. This has had No effect on their timing. I feel like a broken record; always harping on to them that they need to Stop! If they stop, Rueben will follow suit. But they are unable to.
>
> How do I ride the rude language? It's easy enough at home, but what about in public places? What should I actually Say to Rueben when he swears in anger at me/his siblings? I'm kind of thinking this may be something I cannot change, but need to ride out in a more peaceful manner.
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Kathryn
>
debwal777
I made a mistake. It seems like Sandra is not in favor of all this cussing either. Amen.
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-They do not curse in public though. They seem to be able to control it in public places. But they don't fight with each other in public usually like they do at home. It is more intense at home.-=-
>
> You've made a rule and not a principle, if "the rule" is that they don't do it in public. And they shouldn't need to be "controlling it." They should be making choices.
>
> This was a VERY BAD CHOICE:
>
> -=-My husband is really upset by the language. It came to a head tonight when my 7 year old told him "Go F*** yourself!" because of a disagreement they had.-=-
>
> I doubt your seven year old knows what the word means. Would it be too cruel to take him privately aside and tell him he had just commanded that his father put his own penis in his own butt? It depends on the child, but if it were me and a child of mine had said that, I would have taken him in another room and gotten a bit graphic, and told him NEVER to say that to anyone again, because he could be hit in the face or killed if he grew up and said that to someone, and he needed to stop, now.
>
> -=-My older son now sticks up his middle finger at us, but also sometimes at himself. -=-
>
> Never, ever would I allow another person to do that to me if it wasn't in the sweetest most joking once-because-it-was-funny-at-the-time way.
>
> I think perhaps you should get a friend to talk to them if you can't figure out how to do it. An intervention.
>
> Somehow you gave them permission to be vile. I hope you weren't using unschooling as an excuse to do that.
>
> -=- The cursing started a few months ago when they started watching You Tube clips of mostly teen kids playing video games. -=-
>
> Maybe you could tell them they need to wait until they're grown to decide whether to use that language, but they need to NOT use it at your house, or while they live with you, because what they do reflects on your family, and if they're going to be part of the family, the need to not be nasty.
>
> -=- I don't know what I should use as a *motivator* to get them to stop. Do I tell them they cannot watch the videos they love to watch any more? -=-
>
> You could say (though it's a little late) that they can only watch those videos if they aren't hurting the peace of your home. If they repeat from it, they can't watch them. Enforcement would be hard at this point.
>
> I took my kids to see the South Park Movie when it was new and in the theater, but I didn't want them repeating or singing any of the stuff outside, because I didn't want to be in trouble with anyone for taking them, and I didn't want them to offend anyone. So before we went, they promised to keep it quiet around anyone else. And they were so good at that that my husband (who was working in another city at the time) didn't hear a word from any of them, even when he visited. He went to see it in Minneapolis when it was at the dollar theater (late in the run, discount) and was surprised that it was a musical. Ordinarily, here, if there's a new song they're singing it. But they didn't. The combination of factors that made that work at our house started early. We worked as a team from their infancy, and they trusted us to do things for them and we trusted them to make concessions--to be quiet late at night, to be discreet.
>
> -=-Do I give it a day, a week, a month?-=-
>
> No. Tell them you made a mistake in letting it go, and they've gone WAY past the line and it has to stop.
>
> -=- I know my neighbor has washed her son's mouth out with soap, but I could not do that.-=-
>
> I hope her son didn't get the words from copying your kids.
>
> Sandra
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
I'm new here but had to jump in. I read all the replies and there's something I can't get my head around. Don't we want to teach our children manners and politeness? I don't understand why it's okay for them to cuss like sailors if they're just having fun but not when they're angry. By allowing that you're telling them that it's okay to swear. And they will grow up to be swearing adults. I'm just confused, maybe someone can explain the benefit of encouraging swearing among siblings and friends.
---=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
I do not think anyone here is saying that they encourage their children to swear or curse.
There are no rules about not swearing or using curse words in my home.
I have talked to my kids about when it is not appropriate to do it and why.
They rarely use curse words or swear
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
---=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
I do not think anyone here is saying that they encourage their children to swear or curse.
There are no rules about not swearing or using curse words in my home.
I have talked to my kids about when it is not appropriate to do it and why.
They rarely use curse words or swear
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I'm new here but had to jump in.-=-
It's really okay to wait. :-)
"had to will trigger someone to share this link:
http://sandradodd.com/haveto
-=-Don't we want to teach our children manners and politeness?-=-
"teach" is another trigger.
http://sandradodd.com/teaching
I want my children to learn manners and politeness, but not in a rote way, by rules.
Mine are grown now but I wanted them to see situations as times to make choices for good reasons.
-=- I don't understand why it's okay for them to cuss like sailors if they're just having fun but not when they're angry. By allowing that you're telling them that it's okay to swear. -=-
How old are your children? How long have you been unschooling?
"To cuss like sailors" isn't a phrase you just thought up. It's something your grandmother said. There's a danger in speaking in such phrases. It indicates that one is repeating, and channeling older folks who shamed the speaker, rather than being analytical and clear and using one's own thoughts and words. Unschooling can't be built of those older phrases.
http://sandradodd.com/phrases
-=-By allowing that you're telling them that it's okay to swear. And they will grow up to be swearing adults.-=-
I don't think that follows at all.
-=-I'm just confused, maybe someone can explain the benefit of encouraging swearing among siblings and friends.-=-
The whole discussion was about that. No one was "encouraging" it.
-=-I made a mistake. It seems like Sandra is not in favor of
all this cussing either. Amen. -=-
How is it a mistake? You take back all your questions because one person in the discussion had a similar objection? Or did you only intend to be challenging if it was me you were challenging?
Really, truly, it's okay not to post if you don't have something positive to add to the discussion.
I am honestly interested in the age of your children and how long you've unschooled, though. If you have very young children it's easy to avoid and "forbid." If you have teens, that's likely another matter.
Sandra
It's really okay to wait. :-)
"had to will trigger someone to share this link:
http://sandradodd.com/haveto
-=-Don't we want to teach our children manners and politeness?-=-
"teach" is another trigger.
http://sandradodd.com/teaching
I want my children to learn manners and politeness, but not in a rote way, by rules.
Mine are grown now but I wanted them to see situations as times to make choices for good reasons.
-=- I don't understand why it's okay for them to cuss like sailors if they're just having fun but not when they're angry. By allowing that you're telling them that it's okay to swear. -=-
How old are your children? How long have you been unschooling?
"To cuss like sailors" isn't a phrase you just thought up. It's something your grandmother said. There's a danger in speaking in such phrases. It indicates that one is repeating, and channeling older folks who shamed the speaker, rather than being analytical and clear and using one's own thoughts and words. Unschooling can't be built of those older phrases.
http://sandradodd.com/phrases
-=-By allowing that you're telling them that it's okay to swear. And they will grow up to be swearing adults.-=-
I don't think that follows at all.
-=-I'm just confused, maybe someone can explain the benefit of encouraging swearing among siblings and friends.-=-
The whole discussion was about that. No one was "encouraging" it.
-=-I made a mistake. It seems like Sandra is not in favor of
all this cussing either. Amen. -=-
How is it a mistake? You take back all your questions because one person in the discussion had a similar objection? Or did you only intend to be challenging if it was me you were challenging?
Really, truly, it's okay not to post if you don't have something positive to add to the discussion.
I am honestly interested in the age of your children and how long you've unschooled, though. If you have very young children it's easy to avoid and "forbid." If you have teens, that's likely another matter.
Sandra
Joyce Fetteroll
On Apr 29, 2012, at 7:01 PM, debwal777 wrote:
And if what you gathered from what Sandra wrote is that she's not in favor of cussing you've missed the essence. It's about helping kids make though-filled choices.
A lot of thought is put into what the long time posters write and it can't be read effectively without a lot of thought.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I made a mistake. It seems like Sandra is not in favor of all this cussing either. Amen.You seem to have skimmed what everyone else wrote, though, looking for "No. Bad. Don't swear," and missed the heart of what was being said.
And if what you gathered from what Sandra wrote is that she's not in favor of cussing you've missed the essence. It's about helping kids make though-filled choices.
A lot of thought is put into what the long time posters write and it can't be read effectively without a lot of thought.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
debwal777
My kids living at home are 9 and 20. I have a 22 year old in the Marines and he swears a bit but only since he enlisted...as far as I know. What I meant was that in my original post I made a grand sweeping statement that "no one" seemed to be bothered. After I read through your posts again I found I was wrong and you seemed most vocal about not encouraging or allowing swearing and understood the seriousness it could present in certain social situations, i.e. social workers intervening. It was certainly not a challenge to you by any means.
My youngest has repeated swear words he's heard from his friends before and we just told him that we don't swear in this family and there are smarter words to use when you're mad, frustrated or whatever. So he stopped. My daughter has never uttered a swear word in her life and she's proud to admit it. Quite honestly my husband and I have been known to slip on occasion and we just apologize to the kids when it happens and reiterate that we really don't want to swear in our family.
I guess I feel it should be pretty much that simple. From what you said its s pretty cut and dried topic for you as well. Oh, and we've been unschooling for two years now and I homeschooled my daughter.who's in college now.
My youngest has repeated swear words he's heard from his friends before and we just told him that we don't swear in this family and there are smarter words to use when you're mad, frustrated or whatever. So he stopped. My daughter has never uttered a swear word in her life and she's proud to admit it. Quite honestly my husband and I have been known to slip on occasion and we just apologize to the kids when it happens and reiterate that we really don't want to swear in our family.
I guess I feel it should be pretty much that simple. From what you said its s pretty cut and dried topic for you as well. Oh, and we've been unschooling for two years now and I homeschooled my daughter.who's in college now.
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-I'm new here but had to jump in.-=-
>
> It's really okay to wait. :-)
> "had to will trigger someone to share this link:
>
> http://sandradodd.com/haveto
>
> -=-Don't we want to teach our children manners and politeness?-=-
>
> "teach" is another trigger.
> http://sandradodd.com/teaching
>
> I want my children to learn manners and politeness, but not in a rote way, by rules.
> Mine are grown now but I wanted them to see situations as times to make choices for good reasons.
>
> -=- I don't understand why it's okay for them to cuss like sailors if they're just having fun but not when they're angry. By allowing that you're telling them that it's okay to swear. -=-
>
> How old are your children? How long have you been unschooling?
>
> "To cuss like sailors" isn't a phrase you just thought up. It's something your grandmother said. There's a danger in speaking in such phrases. It indicates that one is repeating, and channeling older folks who shamed the speaker, rather than being analytical and clear and using one's own thoughts and words. Unschooling can't be built of those older phrases.
>
> http://sandradodd.com/phrases
>
> -=-By allowing that you're telling them that it's okay to swear. And they will grow up to be swearing adults.-=-
>
> I don't think that follows at all.
>
> -=-I'm just confused, maybe someone can explain the benefit of encouraging swearing among siblings and friends.-=-
> The whole discussion was about that. No one was "encouraging" it.
>
> -=-I made a mistake. It seems like Sandra is not in favor of
> all this cussing either. Amen. -=-
>
> How is it a mistake? You take back all your questions because one person in the discussion had a similar objection? Or did you only intend to be challenging if it was me you were challenging?
>
> Really, truly, it's okay not to post if you don't have something positive to add to the discussion.
>
> I am honestly interested in the age of your children and how long you've unschooled, though. If you have very young children it's easy to avoid and "forbid." If you have teens, that's likely another matter.
>
> Sandra
>
debwal777
I agree that's why I went back and read all the posts again. Hers seemed the most committed to not swearing. That's all I meant by my second post. I didn't mean to minimize the work that went into other posts. I apologize if it came out that way.
--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...> wrote:
>
>
> On Apr 29, 2012, at 7:01 PM, debwal777 wrote:
>
> > I made a mistake. It seems like Sandra is not in favor of all this cussing either. Amen.
>
> You seem to have skimmed what everyone else wrote, though, looking for "No. Bad. Don't swear," and missed the heart of what was being said.
>
> And if what you gathered from what Sandra wrote is that she's not in favor of cussing you've missed the essence. It's about helping kids make though-filled choices.
>
> A lot of thought is put into what the long time posters write and it can't be read effectively without a lot of thought.
>
> Joyce
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Sandra Dodd
-=-I agree that's why I went back and read all the posts again. Hers seemed the most committed to not swearing. That's all I meant by my second post. I didn't mean to minimize the work that went into other posts. I apologize if it came out that way.-=-
I wasn't "committed to not swearing."
I was criticizing exchanging one rule (you can't swear) for another one (you CAN swear), without regard to factors and choices and judgment about proper place and time.
We never had a rule against swearing at our house (though "swearing" isn't the same as using bad words, and "cussing" is cursing, which isn't swearing, so By God, eat shit and die, and shit-head are in three different categories). Holly used to tell her brothers not to say bad words, when she was six or seven and they were ten and twelvish. They would just try not to say them around her. As they all grew up. Holly probably became the worst of them all, but none of them are bad, and none would ever slip in front of anyone grandmother.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I wasn't "committed to not swearing."
I was criticizing exchanging one rule (you can't swear) for another one (you CAN swear), without regard to factors and choices and judgment about proper place and time.
We never had a rule against swearing at our house (though "swearing" isn't the same as using bad words, and "cussing" is cursing, which isn't swearing, so By God, eat shit and die, and shit-head are in three different categories). Holly used to tell her brothers not to say bad words, when she was six or seven and they were ten and twelvish. They would just try not to say them around her. As they all grew up. Holly probably became the worst of them all, but none of them are bad, and none would ever slip in front of anyone grandmother.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-My youngest has repeated swear words he's heard from his friends before and we just told him that we don't swear in this family and there are smarter words to use when you're mad, frustrated or whatever. So he stopped. -=-
As far as you know.
He won't do it in front of you, perhaps.
"We don't (x) in this family" isn't a tool that makes unschooling better. Being a team is cool, but having pre-set rules and enforcing them isn't about natural learning or choices. Instead of discussing why, you set a condition for being part of your family.
-=-. Quite honestly my husband and I have been known to slip on occasion and we just apologize to the kids when it happens and reiterate that we really don't want to swear in our family.
I guess I feel it should be pretty much that simple.-=-
The most horribly behaved kids I have ever had in my home were from a family where the rule was "I better not see you [doing/saying/eating/acting whatever]." And that's the way the rule worked. If the dad saw them, they got a spanking. If the mom saw them, she told the dad, and they got a spanking. At my house, they did all those thing, because neither the dad or mom was there and they didn't figure I would tell because I didn't believe in spankings.
What I did was take the boy (the other two were girls) and with the most menacing eye contact I could muster, told him that if he EVER wanted to come back to my house again, he needed to stop being so wild. Calm down and be nice. He did. Not out of fear of his dad, but because he DID like to play at my house.
-=-From what you said its s pretty cut and dried topic for you as well.-=-
I think you were looking for something to justify your own beliefs and have defined my writing as being like yours. What I believe and what I wrote is not simple, or "cut and dried."
Today's Just Add Light is about using phrases like that.
http://justaddlightandstir.blogspot.com/
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
As far as you know.
He won't do it in front of you, perhaps.
"We don't (x) in this family" isn't a tool that makes unschooling better. Being a team is cool, but having pre-set rules and enforcing them isn't about natural learning or choices. Instead of discussing why, you set a condition for being part of your family.
-=-. Quite honestly my husband and I have been known to slip on occasion and we just apologize to the kids when it happens and reiterate that we really don't want to swear in our family.
I guess I feel it should be pretty much that simple.-=-
The most horribly behaved kids I have ever had in my home were from a family where the rule was "I better not see you [doing/saying/eating/acting whatever]." And that's the way the rule worked. If the dad saw them, they got a spanking. If the mom saw them, she told the dad, and they got a spanking. At my house, they did all those thing, because neither the dad or mom was there and they didn't figure I would tell because I didn't believe in spankings.
What I did was take the boy (the other two were girls) and with the most menacing eye contact I could muster, told him that if he EVER wanted to come back to my house again, he needed to stop being so wild. Calm down and be nice. He did. Not out of fear of his dad, but because he DID like to play at my house.
-=-From what you said its s pretty cut and dried topic for you as well.-=-
I think you were looking for something to justify your own beliefs and have defined my writing as being like yours. What I believe and what I wrote is not simple, or "cut and dried."
Today's Just Add Light is about using phrases like that.
http://justaddlightandstir.blogspot.com/
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
Today's Just Add Light is about using phrases like that.
http://justaddlightandstir.blogspot.com/
Better link, for those who read this any day other than April 30, 2012.
http://justaddlightandstir.blogspot.com/2012/04/use-your-words.html
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
http://justaddlightandstir.blogspot.com/
Better link, for those who read this any day other than April 30, 2012.
http://justaddlightandstir.blogspot.com/2012/04/use-your-words.html
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]