Curriculum Schmiculum article
maryann
http://www.lifelearningmagazine.com/0210/curriculum_schmiculum_making_the_unschooling_leap.htm
I saw a link to this article posted, and I'm curious. First, I see that it's from ten years ago, so I wonder if anyone knows how it turned out. But mostly, I wonder how you would respond to the author's situation. I've heard a few people in person say this has happened to them--that their kids have stopped trusting them and themselves, and said, 'Why did you do this to me?' when they compare themselves to school friends (as teenagers).
What do you think helped your children feel confident and continue to trust?
maryann
5yo and 2yo
I saw a link to this article posted, and I'm curious. First, I see that it's from ten years ago, so I wonder if anyone knows how it turned out. But mostly, I wonder how you would respond to the author's situation. I've heard a few people in person say this has happened to them--that their kids have stopped trusting them and themselves, and said, 'Why did you do this to me?' when they compare themselves to school friends (as teenagers).
What do you think helped your children feel confident and continue to trust?
maryann
5yo and 2yo
Sandra Dodd
-=-I saw a link to this article posted, and I'm curious. First, I see that it's from ten years ago, so I wonder if anyone knows how it turned out. But mostly, I wonder how you would respond to the author's situation.-=-
Did you see it posted here, on this list? (I think it was posted on facebook; we don't need to defend or analyze every unschooling story everywhere. :-)
If she had asked on this list for ideas, she might've gotten suggestions to hang out with other unschoolers, to go to conferences, I think, so her kids had friends who were also unschooled. It looked to me like she "trusted" them to learn on their own and from classes, but she didn't have many stories of them learning together, outside of her reading to them and them playing with dolls. It's hard to tell from one account. When people don't invite dialog, though, we *don't* respond.
-=-so I wonder if anyone knows how it turned out. -=-
There's a followup linked at the bottom of the page you sent us.
"Ann Leadbetter homeschools her daughters with her husband Gig in Grand Junction Colorado. Her articles have appeared in Home Education Magazine and GWS. She wrote a follow-up to this article for Life Learning Magazine's September/October 2007 issue."
And it links to this:
http://www.lifelearningmagazine.com/0710/unschooled_teens_go_to_college.htm
============
Kate and Molly Go to College
by Ann Leadbetter
My daughters’ unschooling journey has officially ended now that Kate (19) and Molly (17) are both in college this fall. It began when Kate finished first grade and Molly was a preschooler and now, 13 years later, they will both be in full-time school for the first time....
============
I think their unschooling journey ended when they started doing American Correspondence School (detailed in that second article), but Life Learning Magazine's definition of unschooling (a word they don't even like to use) is much more vague than that used on Always Learning.
Sandra
Did you see it posted here, on this list? (I think it was posted on facebook; we don't need to defend or analyze every unschooling story everywhere. :-)
If she had asked on this list for ideas, she might've gotten suggestions to hang out with other unschoolers, to go to conferences, I think, so her kids had friends who were also unschooled. It looked to me like she "trusted" them to learn on their own and from classes, but she didn't have many stories of them learning together, outside of her reading to them and them playing with dolls. It's hard to tell from one account. When people don't invite dialog, though, we *don't* respond.
-=-so I wonder if anyone knows how it turned out. -=-
There's a followup linked at the bottom of the page you sent us.
"Ann Leadbetter homeschools her daughters with her husband Gig in Grand Junction Colorado. Her articles have appeared in Home Education Magazine and GWS. She wrote a follow-up to this article for Life Learning Magazine's September/October 2007 issue."
And it links to this:
http://www.lifelearningmagazine.com/0710/unschooled_teens_go_to_college.htm
============
Kate and Molly Go to College
by Ann Leadbetter
My daughters’ unschooling journey has officially ended now that Kate (19) and Molly (17) are both in college this fall. It began when Kate finished first grade and Molly was a preschooler and now, 13 years later, they will both be in full-time school for the first time....
============
I think their unschooling journey ended when they started doing American Correspondence School (detailed in that second article), but Life Learning Magazine's definition of unschooling (a word they don't even like to use) is much more vague than that used on Always Learning.
Sandra
maryann
>>>>Thanks for responding anyway, Sandra. I was hoping for an AlwaysLearning opinion. :)
> Did you see it posted here, on this list? (I think it was posted on facebook; we don't need to defend or analyze every unschooling story everywhere. :-)
>>>>>
>>>>That makes a lot of sense.
> If she had asked on this list for ideas, she might've gotten suggestions to hang out with other unschoolers, to go to conferences, I think, so her kids had friends who were also unschooled. It looked to me like she "trusted" them to learn on their own and from classes, but she didn't have many stories of them learning together, outside of her reading to them and them playing with dolls. It's hard to tell from one account. When people don't invite dialog, though, we *don't* respond.
>>>>>
>>>>>I missed that, thanks!
> There's a followup linked at the bottom of the page you sent us.
>
> And it links to this:
> http://www.lifelearningmagazine.com/0710/unschooled_teens_go_to_college.htm
>>>>>
The followup article contradicts the initial one... There was no mention of Kate ever going to high school or Molly attending alternate middle school. And it sounds like school was entirely the author's idea, with no mention of the girls being upset with her.
From the above linked followup article:
=============
When Kate turned 14, however, I started wondering if there was more we should be doing because she had already stated her desire to go to college so she could play soccer. Like most parents of unschoolers, I didn't know how unschoolers fared in the college admission game, if it was hard to get into the colleges of their choice, if they would qualify for scholarships, if they'd hate college once they got there, if they could handle college work and, if they didn't end up in college, then what? I have to admit that even though I had been a passionate believer in unschooling, I secretly hoped my girls would choose to go to college.
==============
She even concluded with:
==============
The advice is the same as it's been all along: Keep trusting your children. Don't let cultural messages about future success and what your teen "should" be doing to prepare for college lead you to make fear-based decisions that could end up wasting your time and jeopardizing your relationship.
==============
That seems quite contradictory to the first article, where she said:
=============
Meanwhile my daughters are suspicious of me, wondering to what extent I've ruined their lives. The worst part is that they don't feel able to remedy their situations outside the institution of school. They worry if they don't hurry and catch up, it might be too late for them, that they'll be destined to be misfits and ignoramuses. I wonder how much blame and shame they'll hurl at me before they realize I did them a huge favor.
AND
It was probably inevitable, the day they no longer trusted me. The gradual realization I might have done them wrong. What's so bad about school, they began to wonder. Their school friends didn't seem to be suffering. They worried that maybe times-tables and state capitals were important.
==============
Back to what Sandra Dodd wrote:
>>>>>>I didn't know that about Life Learning Magazine, and it's probably the most significant bit of information needed to explain the issues in this article. Back to 'know your source'....
> I think their unschooling journey ended when they started doing American Correspondence School (detailed in that second article), but Life Learning Magazine's definition of unschooling (a word they don't even like to use) is much more vague than that used on Always Learning.
>>>>>>
maryann
Sandra Dodd
-=-The followup article contradicts the initial one... There was no mention of Kate ever going to high school or Molly attending alternate middle school. And it sounds like school was entirely the author's idea, with no mention of the girls being upset with her. -=-
Things can change in a few years, especially when it's never solid to begin with.
It's why I press people to move thoughtfully but directly toward something that makes sense to them, and not to hope that "whatever" will lead them to unschooling confidently.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Things can change in a few years, especially when it's never solid to begin with.
It's why I press people to move thoughtfully but directly toward something that makes sense to them, and not to hope that "whatever" will lead them to unschooling confidently.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Marina DeLuca-Howard
I have to say that both her decision to unschool and her decision to school
her daughters was predicated upon fear. One comes from fear for her
daughters in school and the other decision is the fear of the first
decsions. That is not a good example of a full life of learning and living.
It is about cowering and avoidance followed by mainstreaming.
Marina
her daughters was predicated upon fear. One comes from fear for her
daughters in school and the other decision is the fear of the first
decsions. That is not a good example of a full life of learning and living.
It is about cowering and avoidance followed by mainstreaming.
Marina
On 10 April 2012 06:30, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
> **
>
>
> -=-The followup article contradicts the initial one... There was no
> mention of Kate ever going to high school or Molly attending alternate
> middle school. And it sounds like school was entirely the author's idea,
> with no mention of the girls being upset with her. -=-
>
> Things can change in a few years, especially when it's never solid to
> begin with.
>
> It's why I press people to move thoughtfully but directly toward something
> that makes sense to them, and not to hope that "whatever" will lead them to
> unschooling confidently.
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
--
Bread and Roses
http://breadandrosescentennial.org/
Trust, Equality and Goodwill
It's not just that the ends do not justify the means (though they don't),
you will never achieve the ends at all unless the means are themselves a
model for the world you wish to create. .*David Graeber*
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I have to say that both her decision to unschool and her decision to school
her daughters was predicated upon fear. One comes from fear for her
daughters in school and the other decision is the fear of the first
decsions. That is not a good example of a full life of learning and living.
It is about cowering and avoidance followed by mainstreaming.-=-
Sometimes people write from bravado. They will write about the joys of "freedom", without really having moved much toward it (or worse, having moved TOO far into what they think of as "freedom" without having created a strong relationship with the children they're letting loose into the world).
So it's good to realize that great ideas can come from people who aren't yet great unschoolers (or great ideas could have been plagiarized, and then misinterpreted, and then badly rephrased). That goes back to the idea of anonymous sources. But it all goes to personal responsibility to figure out unschooling for your own family.
Joyce and I have collected a huge storehouse of tools and ideas, free for the taking.
http://sandradodd.com/
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com
Read a little, try a little, wait a while, watch.
If something isn't working, ask questions, but don't keep asking questions before trying it out with your own kids. I think the author of those articles wasn't getting feedback and assistance from other unschoolers. It seems to be common for people to look at unschooling and think it's simple, and then they go off and mess it up. Or they go off and charge money (or attempt to) to 'teach' other people how to unschool before they've shown they know how to do it well themselves.
Sandra
her daughters was predicated upon fear. One comes from fear for her
daughters in school and the other decision is the fear of the first
decsions. That is not a good example of a full life of learning and living.
It is about cowering and avoidance followed by mainstreaming.-=-
Sometimes people write from bravado. They will write about the joys of "freedom", without really having moved much toward it (or worse, having moved TOO far into what they think of as "freedom" without having created a strong relationship with the children they're letting loose into the world).
So it's good to realize that great ideas can come from people who aren't yet great unschoolers (or great ideas could have been plagiarized, and then misinterpreted, and then badly rephrased). That goes back to the idea of anonymous sources. But it all goes to personal responsibility to figure out unschooling for your own family.
Joyce and I have collected a huge storehouse of tools and ideas, free for the taking.
http://sandradodd.com/
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com
Read a little, try a little, wait a while, watch.
If something isn't working, ask questions, but don't keep asking questions before trying it out with your own kids. I think the author of those articles wasn't getting feedback and assistance from other unschoolers. It seems to be common for people to look at unschooling and think it's simple, and then they go off and mess it up. Or they go off and charge money (or attempt to) to 'teach' other people how to unschool before they've shown they know how to do it well themselves.
Sandra
Marina DeLuca-Howard
Yes. I just read both articles and it seemed her chief motivation was fear
and as you said "bravado", which isn't the foundation you and Joyce are
talking about with relationship-building...not at all.
She could have allowed her daughters to express their fears or figured out
how to mitigate her own fears. She just assumed this was "normal".
When I clicked your links and rereadsome of your work and your blogs I saw
curiosity. When I read the articles in this thread it seems more about
"revelling" in rebellion. She's an unschooling mom and there is no room for
the kids voices to shine through the article except as "whiney" in the way
mainstream people characterize kids. It is probably an archetype or maybe
it is the sterotype of the teen? The kids are going to resent your
parenting style or decisions...must be a trope :)
Joyce, too appears to be about being curious, exploring and nurturing.
Curiousity, if I am analysing this correctly means unschoolers I admire
see things before they become fears, when these items just appear as
anomalies or problems to be solved or maybe it is just a philosophy thing.
Most unschoolers I meet in real life, online and read about seem to be
happy people who see cups as half-full and focus on building relationships.
More importantly, I suppose they are looking at differently sized cups, too
and filling them differently. They focus on the relationship with their
spouse and their child/children. If like the author of the article their
focus is on being an unschooling parent rather than raising a child whom
they happen to be unschooling because it leads to happiness and its a good
fit, then there are going to be issues if not with the other parent then
with the kids.
Lately, Crispin has been hugging me more and offering me juice and being
very nurturing. He has concluded that he is "lucky" by seeing other parents
and kids together. I was not expecting this at all, at least not at a young
age:) If like the author's kids my son was fretting and worried we would be
doing school at home and he would be able to join the mainstream. It is
just we aren't in her position, but his feelings are really important to me
and feelings usually change slowly with my kids. But if suddenly he was
upset I would not write a tongue in cheek article about it. I'd be checking
websites, and on listservs asking other people for advice:) and talking to
my family to see what we could do about his needs/fears. I guess that is
what bugs me about the article it is bravado and not an exploration of
relationships.
Marina
and as you said "bravado", which isn't the foundation you and Joyce are
talking about with relationship-building...not at all.
She could have allowed her daughters to express their fears or figured out
how to mitigate her own fears. She just assumed this was "normal".
When I clicked your links and rereadsome of your work and your blogs I saw
curiosity. When I read the articles in this thread it seems more about
"revelling" in rebellion. She's an unschooling mom and there is no room for
the kids voices to shine through the article except as "whiney" in the way
mainstream people characterize kids. It is probably an archetype or maybe
it is the sterotype of the teen? The kids are going to resent your
parenting style or decisions...must be a trope :)
Joyce, too appears to be about being curious, exploring and nurturing.
Curiousity, if I am analysing this correctly means unschoolers I admire
see things before they become fears, when these items just appear as
anomalies or problems to be solved or maybe it is just a philosophy thing.
Most unschoolers I meet in real life, online and read about seem to be
happy people who see cups as half-full and focus on building relationships.
More importantly, I suppose they are looking at differently sized cups, too
and filling them differently. They focus on the relationship with their
spouse and their child/children. If like the author of the article their
focus is on being an unschooling parent rather than raising a child whom
they happen to be unschooling because it leads to happiness and its a good
fit, then there are going to be issues if not with the other parent then
with the kids.
Lately, Crispin has been hugging me more and offering me juice and being
very nurturing. He has concluded that he is "lucky" by seeing other parents
and kids together. I was not expecting this at all, at least not at a young
age:) If like the author's kids my son was fretting and worried we would be
doing school at home and he would be able to join the mainstream. It is
just we aren't in her position, but his feelings are really important to me
and feelings usually change slowly with my kids. But if suddenly he was
upset I would not write a tongue in cheek article about it. I'd be checking
websites, and on listservs asking other people for advice:) and talking to
my family to see what we could do about his needs/fears. I guess that is
what bugs me about the article it is bravado and not an exploration of
relationships.
Marina
On 10 April 2012 10:49, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
> **
>
>
> -=-I have to say that both her decision to unschool and her decision to
> school
>
> her daughters was predicated upon fear. One comes from fear for her
> daughters in school and the other decision is the fear of the first
> decsions. That is not a good example of a full life of learning and living.
> It is about cowering and avoidance followed by mainstreaming.-=-
>
> Sometimes people write from bravado. They will write about the joys of
> "freedom", without really having moved much toward it (or worse, having
> moved TOO far into what they think of as "freedom" without having created a
> strong relationship with the children they're letting loose into the world).
>
> So it's good to realize that great ideas can come from people who aren't
> yet great unschoolers (or great ideas could have been plagiarized, and then
> misinterpreted, and then badly rephrased). That goes back to the idea of
> anonymous sources. But it all goes to personal responsibility to figure out
> unschooling for your own family.
>
> Joyce and I have collected a huge storehouse of tools and ideas, free for
> the taking.
> http://sandradodd.com/
> http://joyfullyrejoycing.com
>
> Read a little, try a little, wait a while, watch.
>
> If something isn't working, ask questions, but don't keep asking questions
> before trying it out with your own kids. I think the author of those
> articles wasn't getting feedback and assistance from other unschoolers. It
> seems to be common for people to look at unschooling and think it's simple,
> and then they go off and mess it up. Or they go off and charge money (or
> attempt to) to 'teach' other people how to unschool before they've shown
> they know how to do it well themselves.
>
> Sandra
>
>
>
--
Bread and Roses
http://breadandrosescentennial.org/
Trust, Equality and Goodwill
It's not just that the ends do not justify the means (though they don't),
you will never achieve the ends at all unless the means are themselves a
model for the world you wish to create. .*David Graeber*
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
***...that their kids have stopped trusting them and themselves, and said, 'Why did you do this to me?' when they compare themselves to school friends (as teenagers).
What do you think helped your children feel confident and continue to trust?***
There have only been a few fleeting moments where one of my kids felt that and it was always something specific they didn't know that they realized other kids either know, or know about. Those moments quickly turned into to moments where they realized that they didn't know and now they do.
The biggest most important thing that I've seen, is helping kids see what they DO know and what they ARE good at. Living that way, focusing on those things that make you who you are, well, you can't help but feel confident in those things. I think the majority of kids live in worlds where they are keenly aware of what they aren't good at, where they've missed the mark, that they lose a sense of what they are good at.
Unschooling really focuses on what kids are good at, what they enjoy, what they like to do. Naturally, those things will be more prominent parts of each individual. When you live that way it really changes how you view the world. On my part, it was intentional to see the world and my kids as something full and awesome rather than sad and lacking. For my kids, it's a natural part of who they are at this point, to see the potential. The very act of me trusting them, led them to trust themselves.
This is at the the heart of unschooling for me. Trusting kids, so they can in turn trust themselves and do amazing things without feeling as if they need to turn and look at where they are missing things, because anything they are "missing" will either naturally flow into what they are doing, or they didn't need it yet.
As a mom, it helps to be honest and calm.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
What do you think helped your children feel confident and continue to trust?***
There have only been a few fleeting moments where one of my kids felt that and it was always something specific they didn't know that they realized other kids either know, or know about. Those moments quickly turned into to moments where they realized that they didn't know and now they do.
The biggest most important thing that I've seen, is helping kids see what they DO know and what they ARE good at. Living that way, focusing on those things that make you who you are, well, you can't help but feel confident in those things. I think the majority of kids live in worlds where they are keenly aware of what they aren't good at, where they've missed the mark, that they lose a sense of what they are good at.
Unschooling really focuses on what kids are good at, what they enjoy, what they like to do. Naturally, those things will be more prominent parts of each individual. When you live that way it really changes how you view the world. On my part, it was intentional to see the world and my kids as something full and awesome rather than sad and lacking. For my kids, it's a natural part of who they are at this point, to see the potential. The very act of me trusting them, led them to trust themselves.
This is at the the heart of unschooling for me. Trusting kids, so they can in turn trust themselves and do amazing things without feeling as if they need to turn and look at where they are missing things, because anything they are "missing" will either naturally flow into what they are doing, or they didn't need it yet.
As a mom, it helps to be honest and calm.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Marina DeLuca-Howard
"There have only been a few fleeting moments where one of my kids felt that
and it was always something specific they didn't know that they realized
other kids either know, or know about. Those moments quickly turned into
to moments where they realized that they didn't know and now they do."
Yes, that's my experience too. There is a lot of pop culture my youngest
knows from just living or from watching tv. He learned some history
watching Bob and Ted's Excellent Adventure. Not being afraid to ask
questions seems to be the big part of unschooling and learning is driven by
curiousity when you see new information and not fear of what you don't
know. There seems to be in this article no exploration on the part of the
author about the source of the kid's feelings, in either article, apart
from an "aren't I a naughty mother for doing this"?
It isn't an article about unschooling at all--its about the author. It
isn't even really about her kids--it is her feelings, her intentions and *
her* success with her kids attending "regular" college and how they got
credits from correspondence school even after she found out they didn't
need to do that to attend college. Not that taking a course by choice and
choosing from amoung many choices is wrong. It is just its the only choice
she presents and its how she justifies what she is doing, which seems to be
mainstream parenting where kids aren't really able to feel secure in their
feelings and explore. It is an article about being stuck and how to parent
"alternatively" for your own reasons independently of your kids. People who
read this see unschooling mothers as smug and selfish and "alternative".
Yikes:( Not the analytical thoughful bunch who strew and comfort and
problem-solve with their spouse/children as partners.
Marina
--
Bread and Roses
http://breadandrosescentennial.org/
Trust, Equality and Goodwill
It's not just that the ends do not justify the means (though they don't),
you will never achieve the ends at all unless the means are themselves a
model for the world you wish to create. .*David Graeber*
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
and it was always something specific they didn't know that they realized
other kids either know, or know about. Those moments quickly turned into
to moments where they realized that they didn't know and now they do."
Yes, that's my experience too. There is a lot of pop culture my youngest
knows from just living or from watching tv. He learned some history
watching Bob and Ted's Excellent Adventure. Not being afraid to ask
questions seems to be the big part of unschooling and learning is driven by
curiousity when you see new information and not fear of what you don't
know. There seems to be in this article no exploration on the part of the
author about the source of the kid's feelings, in either article, apart
from an "aren't I a naughty mother for doing this"?
It isn't an article about unschooling at all--its about the author. It
isn't even really about her kids--it is her feelings, her intentions and *
her* success with her kids attending "regular" college and how they got
credits from correspondence school even after she found out they didn't
need to do that to attend college. Not that taking a course by choice and
choosing from amoung many choices is wrong. It is just its the only choice
she presents and its how she justifies what she is doing, which seems to be
mainstream parenting where kids aren't really able to feel secure in their
feelings and explore. It is an article about being stuck and how to parent
"alternatively" for your own reasons independently of your kids. People who
read this see unschooling mothers as smug and selfish and "alternative".
Yikes:( Not the analytical thoughful bunch who strew and comfort and
problem-solve with their spouse/children as partners.
Marina
--
Bread and Roses
http://breadandrosescentennial.org/
Trust, Equality and Goodwill
It's not just that the ends do not justify the means (though they don't),
you will never achieve the ends at all unless the means are themselves a
model for the world you wish to create. .*David Graeber*
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
***She could have allowed her daughters to express their fears or figured out
how to mitigate her own fears. She just assumed this was "normal".***
It's common. When parents can't get over their own fears, it spills out into the family life, in the same way bubbly happiness does. It's a choice and lots of times people don't see that.
***It is probably an archetype or maybe
it is the sterotype of the teen? The kids are going to resent your
parenting style or decisions...must be a trope :)***
Yes, it's repeated a lot! No matter what you do as a parent, somehow the kids will end up disliking it because nobody can parent in such a way that kids won't be dysfunctional in some shape or form. We get to shape our children's lives, it's a big responsibility! So, don't do it in a way where the kids grow to resent you. The only way I know how to do that is to focus on the relationship and come at life from that angle, with calm, honesty, and happiness. It would be super easy to mess it up!
The things my kids dislike aren't the parenting or the parents, it's various life "gets you down" moments that happen. That's the way it should be when you are partners with your kids, you share those moments and act as buffers instead of yet another obstacle!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
how to mitigate her own fears. She just assumed this was "normal".***
It's common. When parents can't get over their own fears, it spills out into the family life, in the same way bubbly happiness does. It's a choice and lots of times people don't see that.
***It is probably an archetype or maybe
it is the sterotype of the teen? The kids are going to resent your
parenting style or decisions...must be a trope :)***
Yes, it's repeated a lot! No matter what you do as a parent, somehow the kids will end up disliking it because nobody can parent in such a way that kids won't be dysfunctional in some shape or form. We get to shape our children's lives, it's a big responsibility! So, don't do it in a way where the kids grow to resent you. The only way I know how to do that is to focus on the relationship and come at life from that angle, with calm, honesty, and happiness. It would be super easy to mess it up!
The things my kids dislike aren't the parenting or the parents, it's various life "gets you down" moments that happen. That's the way it should be when you are partners with your kids, you share those moments and act as buffers instead of yet another obstacle!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
On Tue, Apr 10, 2012 at 11:48 AM, Jenny Cyphers <jenstarc4@...> wrote:
because, like 'freedom," it seems used to justify neglect, at times. I
like the word "confidence" better.
I have confidence that seeds will grow and produce if I create an
appropriately nurturing environment for them. It would seem funny to say I
"trust" the seeds.
I agree with the sentiment, however, that my actions and attitudes led my
kids to have similar confidence in themselves as I had in myself and in
them.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> The very act of me trusting them, led them to trust themselves.I'm sometimes not comfortable with the word "trust" -- I think it is
because, like 'freedom," it seems used to justify neglect, at times. I
like the word "confidence" better.
I have confidence that seeds will grow and produce if I create an
appropriately nurturing environment for them. It would seem funny to say I
"trust" the seeds.
I agree with the sentiment, however, that my actions and attitudes led my
kids to have similar confidence in themselves as I had in myself and in
them.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
***I'm sometimes not comfortable with the word "trust" -- I think it is
because, like 'freedom," it seems used to justify neglect, at times. I
like the word "confidence" better.***
Right, How did that happen?
When I say that I trust my kids, I think of the alternative. Some parents don't trust their kids, their kids have to "earn" the trust of their parents by making the same choices that the parents believe are good and right.
That's my frame of reference when thinking about trusting my kids. I believe their intentions are good, even when they make choices that I don't think are good. Sometimes they prove me wrong, sometimes the choices they made were actually better than what I would have done.
I think, when most parents hear that someone trusts their kids, they believe that the parents trust their kids to follow the rules and guidelines they have set down for their kids. So, when you live by principles instead of rules, that whole way of trusting one's kids looks totally different. It's that "what you do instead" part that needs more examination and discussion, which is exactly the kind of thing that gets discussed here, and in places like this.
If I can trust that my kids can learn without school, then I can certainly trust that they will do other things as well. In the absence of school, how do kids learn? If you trust that they will learn, simply by existing, then you miss a whole lot of what makes unschooling really fun and cool! That seems to be the misunderstanding that makes you, and me, uncomfortable with throwing out the idea of trusting kids. Yet, I still trust my kids ;)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
because, like 'freedom," it seems used to justify neglect, at times. I
like the word "confidence" better.***
Right, How did that happen?
When I say that I trust my kids, I think of the alternative. Some parents don't trust their kids, their kids have to "earn" the trust of their parents by making the same choices that the parents believe are good and right.
That's my frame of reference when thinking about trusting my kids. I believe their intentions are good, even when they make choices that I don't think are good. Sometimes they prove me wrong, sometimes the choices they made were actually better than what I would have done.
I think, when most parents hear that someone trusts their kids, they believe that the parents trust their kids to follow the rules and guidelines they have set down for their kids. So, when you live by principles instead of rules, that whole way of trusting one's kids looks totally different. It's that "what you do instead" part that needs more examination and discussion, which is exactly the kind of thing that gets discussed here, and in places like this.
If I can trust that my kids can learn without school, then I can certainly trust that they will do other things as well. In the absence of school, how do kids learn? If you trust that they will learn, simply by existing, then you miss a whole lot of what makes unschooling really fun and cool! That seems to be the misunderstanding that makes you, and me, uncomfortable with throwing out the idea of trusting kids. Yet, I still trust my kids ;)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-If I can trust that my kids can learn without school, then I can certainly trust that they will do other things as well. In the absence of school, how do kids learn? If you trust that they will learn, simply by existing, then you miss a whole lot of what makes unschooling really fun and cool! That seems to be the misunderstanding that makes you, and me, uncomfortable with throwing out the idea of trusting kids. Yet, I still trust my kids ;)-=-
By throwing the idea out OF the discussion, or throwing the idea INTO the discussion?
It's confusing even when it's unambiguous.
I trust my kids with money and have done so since they were little, but it was because when I sent them to buy something they brought back exact change and a receipt, and when I said "you can buy something for yourself," they either did or didn't, but it was never over a dollar.
I gave Marty my debit card last night to buy gas for his jeep. I didn't consider for a second that he would fly to Vegas, or take cash out to go to the casino (though I know he loves casinos). And we leave cash lying around and it doesn't disappear.
That's trusting my kids with cash. It's not trusting every kid. And if I had a kid who wasn't trustworthy with cash, we wouldn't leave money around and I wouldn't lend that one my debit card.
-=- In the absence of school, how do kids learn? If you trust that they will learn, simply by existing, then you miss a whole lot of what makes unschooling really fun and cool! -=-
I can't tell if you're saying they do learn by existing, or you're pooh-poohing the idea that a child would learn simply by existing. And "simply" is one of those problem words, like "just".
-=-When I say that I trust my kids, I think of the alternative. Some parents don't trust their kids, their kids have to "earn" the trust of their parents by making the same choices that the parents believe are good and right.-=-
My kids earned my trust.
I've earned their trust. I suppose when they were babies they just trusted me, simply trusted me, but I could have lost that by being unreliable or dishonest or mean or whatever. But I didn't. I don't think "earn" should be in quotation marks. I think trust is, in the longterm, earned.
I don't just trust that unschooling works. I know from experience. It's certain knowledge now, and not vague trust.
It's possible I misunderstood some of what was written in that post. Sorry if so, but there was some ambiguity and we're dealing with some words that aren't easy to hold still. They sqoosh out around the edges if you grab them.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
By throwing the idea out OF the discussion, or throwing the idea INTO the discussion?
It's confusing even when it's unambiguous.
I trust my kids with money and have done so since they were little, but it was because when I sent them to buy something they brought back exact change and a receipt, and when I said "you can buy something for yourself," they either did or didn't, but it was never over a dollar.
I gave Marty my debit card last night to buy gas for his jeep. I didn't consider for a second that he would fly to Vegas, or take cash out to go to the casino (though I know he loves casinos). And we leave cash lying around and it doesn't disappear.
That's trusting my kids with cash. It's not trusting every kid. And if I had a kid who wasn't trustworthy with cash, we wouldn't leave money around and I wouldn't lend that one my debit card.
-=- In the absence of school, how do kids learn? If you trust that they will learn, simply by existing, then you miss a whole lot of what makes unschooling really fun and cool! -=-
I can't tell if you're saying they do learn by existing, or you're pooh-poohing the idea that a child would learn simply by existing. And "simply" is one of those problem words, like "just".
-=-When I say that I trust my kids, I think of the alternative. Some parents don't trust their kids, their kids have to "earn" the trust of their parents by making the same choices that the parents believe are good and right.-=-
My kids earned my trust.
I've earned their trust. I suppose when they were babies they just trusted me, simply trusted me, but I could have lost that by being unreliable or dishonest or mean or whatever. But I didn't. I don't think "earn" should be in quotation marks. I think trust is, in the longterm, earned.
I don't just trust that unschooling works. I know from experience. It's certain knowledge now, and not vague trust.
It's possible I misunderstood some of what was written in that post. Sorry if so, but there was some ambiguity and we're dealing with some words that aren't easy to hold still. They sqoosh out around the edges if you grab them.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=--=-If I can trust that my kids can learn without school, then I can certainly trust that they will do other things as well.-=-
Like what?
Seriously. That whole post had me confused.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Like what?
Seriously. That whole post had me confused.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
***By throwing the idea out OF the discussion, or throwing the idea INTO the discussion?***
By throwing the word "trust" around in discussions.
***It's confusing even when it's unambiguous.***
It was totally not ambiguous in my own head! Oops!
-=- In the absence of school, how do kids learn? If you trust that they will learn, simply by existing, then you miss a whole lot of what makes unschooling really fun and cool! -=-
***I can't tell if you're saying they do learn by existing, or you're pooh-poohing the idea that a child would learn simply by existing. And "simply" is one of those problem words, like "just".***
I think if you do nothing but trust, then you miss unschooling and how it works. I suppose kids can learn simply by existing, but I think kids learn better when they have stimulation. Unschooling parents should be looking to stimulate, or like what Pam said about providing sunshine and dirt and water and nutrition so that the seed can grow.
***It's possible I misunderstood some of what was written in that post. Sorry if so, but there was some ambiguity and we're dealing with some words that aren't easy to hold still. They sqoosh out around the edges if you grab them.***
Yes, it IS squishy! As to earning trust, I think ultimately that's what each of us do with others. In the case of my kids, they had it to begin with and I never did things to destroy it, so it survived. I can't imagine unschooling working well in the absence of trust.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
By throwing the word "trust" around in discussions.
***It's confusing even when it's unambiguous.***
It was totally not ambiguous in my own head! Oops!
-=- In the absence of school, how do kids learn? If you trust that they will learn, simply by existing, then you miss a whole lot of what makes unschooling really fun and cool! -=-
***I can't tell if you're saying they do learn by existing, or you're pooh-poohing the idea that a child would learn simply by existing. And "simply" is one of those problem words, like "just".***
I think if you do nothing but trust, then you miss unschooling and how it works. I suppose kids can learn simply by existing, but I think kids learn better when they have stimulation. Unschooling parents should be looking to stimulate, or like what Pam said about providing sunshine and dirt and water and nutrition so that the seed can grow.
***It's possible I misunderstood some of what was written in that post. Sorry if so, but there was some ambiguity and we're dealing with some words that aren't easy to hold still. They sqoosh out around the edges if you grab them.***
Yes, it IS squishy! As to earning trust, I think ultimately that's what each of us do with others. In the case of my kids, they had it to begin with and I never did things to destroy it, so it survived. I can't imagine unschooling working well in the absence of trust.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=- If you trust that they will learn, simply by existing, then you miss a whole lot of what makes unschooling really fun and cool! That seems to be the misunderstanding that makes you, and me, uncomfortable with throwing out the idea of trusting kids. -=-
The problem was "throwing out" which means (usually) discarding. But in the case of an idea, sometimes someone is "just throwing it out there." Meaning IN there. That's the problem.
Seems a good time for this reminder. :-)
Posts for this list need to fulfill at least one of these criteria:
helps lots of people understand unschooling
asks a question that actually needs an answer
requests help seeing different aspects of a situation
helps people have more peaceful and joyful lives (helps lots of people on the list)
ALL posts should be
honest
proofread
sincere
clear
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
The problem was "throwing out" which means (usually) discarding. But in the case of an idea, sometimes someone is "just throwing it out there." Meaning IN there. That's the problem.
Seems a good time for this reminder. :-)
Posts for this list need to fulfill at least one of these criteria:
helps lots of people understand unschooling
asks a question that actually needs an answer
requests help seeing different aspects of a situation
helps people have more peaceful and joyful lives (helps lots of people on the list)
ALL posts should be
honest
proofread
sincere
clear
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Marina DeLuca-Howard
For me people earn my suspicion rather than earn my trust. I offer trust to
most people. I believe people. I trust their intentions until I learn from
experience that whether or not their intentions are good their actions are
harmful. I learn from my mistakes, so if I find myself on the receiving end
of unpleasantness I withdraw trust.
My son the other day was talking to his friend about an idea for a new
"game" called "In my mother's purse". It starts with the idea that a mom
tells a kid to help himself to money and then he sorts through pens,
lipstick, notebooks, receipts etc...in hi
s mom's large bag. He was describing in detail what sort of monsters etc...
could be waiting, weapons, mazes. His friend was stuck on the phrase, "you
know when your mom says 'help yourself to some cash from my purse' and you
have to sort through it". If I tell Rowan help himself to twenty dollars, I
know he won't take more. In fact none of my kids has ever stolen from me.
It never occurred to me before to think about how much I trust my kids, but
they haven't earned my mistrust:) Neither has my partner for that matter,
so their is no model to take the last cookie, the last pop or the last
money...* *I guess that is family cooperation/values/principles :)
Marina
-------------------------------------------------
Trust, Equality and Goodwill
It's not just that the ends do not justify the means (though they don't),
you will never achieve the ends at all unless the means are themselves a
model for the world you wish to create. .*David Graeber*
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
most people. I believe people. I trust their intentions until I learn from
experience that whether or not their intentions are good their actions are
harmful. I learn from my mistakes, so if I find myself on the receiving end
of unpleasantness I withdraw trust.
My son the other day was talking to his friend about an idea for a new
"game" called "In my mother's purse". It starts with the idea that a mom
tells a kid to help himself to money and then he sorts through pens,
lipstick, notebooks, receipts etc...in hi
s mom's large bag. He was describing in detail what sort of monsters etc...
could be waiting, weapons, mazes. His friend was stuck on the phrase, "you
know when your mom says 'help yourself to some cash from my purse' and you
have to sort through it". If I tell Rowan help himself to twenty dollars, I
know he won't take more. In fact none of my kids has ever stolen from me.
It never occurred to me before to think about how much I trust my kids, but
they haven't earned my mistrust:) Neither has my partner for that matter,
so their is no model to take the last cookie, the last pop or the last
money...* *I guess that is family cooperation/values/principles :)
Marina
-------------------------------------------------
Trust, Equality and Goodwill
It's not just that the ends do not justify the means (though they don't),
you will never achieve the ends at all unless the means are themselves a
model for the world you wish to create. .*David Graeber*
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
This evening, shortly after I wrote that post about trusting our kids with money, Holly (20 years old) came through on her way to a dance class and said to Keith "I got some money from your wallet."
Keith said, "Okay."
And she left.
I didn't say a word. They might've talked about an amount earlier.
Sandra
Keith said, "Okay."
And she left.
I didn't say a word. They might've talked about an amount earlier.
Sandra
Jenny Cyphers
-=--=-If I can trust that my kids can learn without school, then I can certainly trust that they will do other things as well.-=-
***Like what?
Seriously. That whole post had me confused.***
I was thinking about all the things that schools don't claim to teach kids, the things that kids might need to know also. Things like having healthy relationships, being kind to smaller, younger people and animals, knowing when to get out of situations that don't work well, making thoughtful choices. Those are all things that my kids learned in a direct way because of unschooling. Each of those things took an element of trust, on my part, that my kids had some good ideas and knew pretty well how to navigate these things. Part of it is natural ability and part of it is me having helped them along the way and part of it was me being able to step back and let my kid do what felt right to them in that moment.
I may still not be writing what I'm trying to get across. I'm stumbling a bit on the ideas that are in my head being put into writing.
I do think confidence works pretty well as a clearer word than trust. I've been thinking about it today as I've gone about my business. One could easily replace the word "trust" with the word "confidence" in many of the instances that I have used the word "trust".
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Apr 10, 2012, at 11:05 PM, Marina DeLuca-Howard wrote:
Trust is:
"Firm reliance on the integrity, ability, or character of a person or thing."
"Confidence [Expression or feeling of certainty] in or reliance on some person or quality."
Maybe people expand their personal meaning of trust beyond its denotation because not *yet* trusting sounds like distrusting. It also carries overtones of distrust of someone's integrity and people tend to avoid implying that to be polite. It also carries overtones of implying someone needs to prove they are worthy of trust, like a test.
But it's less like a test and more like a game where we gain and lose points with someone based on our actions. Each act of trust is worth 1 point. Each act of distrust is worth increasingly more points. ... Except when someone is clearly still learning and improving.
It's a necessary process. It's built into our physiology. It's how we judge where it's best to put our trust and where it's best to withhold it for now or indefinitely. Anyone who pretends that process doesn't exist to be "polite" or "nonjudgemental" is going to be handicapped in dealing with people. And perhaps pass that handicap onto their kids.
To bring it back to unschooling, we as humans are hardwired to learn. That can be given the benefit of the doubt until someone trusts. Many people don't or can't give their children's ability to learn the benefit of doubt because of warped (by school) expectations of what that learning is supposed to look like (along the way and at the end of 17 years.)
But even though humans are hardwired to learn -- which, if someone is beginning unschooling, can be accepted as true until someone trusts from seeing it that it's true -- how much and how well humans learn depends on the environment. If it's rich and responsive to the individual's needs, that person will learn a lot. The more it's lacking in either of those, the less the person will learn.
A child and its environment are like a car and fuel. From a lifetime of experience you can trust that a brand new car has a fully functioning engine. But if there's no fuel or the fuel isn't the right kind for that engine, it's not going to be able to function. And if someone's only experience is cars being fed kerosene instead of gasoline they aren't going to trust that the engine will do what it needs to do.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I believe people. I trust their intentions until I learn fromI think a better term than trust for what most people give initially is "benefit of the doubt": "A favorable judgement given in the absence of full evidence."
> experience that whether or not their intentions are good their actions are
> harmful.
Trust is:
"Firm reliance on the integrity, ability, or character of a person or thing."
"Confidence [Expression or feeling of certainty] in or reliance on some person or quality."
Maybe people expand their personal meaning of trust beyond its denotation because not *yet* trusting sounds like distrusting. It also carries overtones of distrust of someone's integrity and people tend to avoid implying that to be polite. It also carries overtones of implying someone needs to prove they are worthy of trust, like a test.
But it's less like a test and more like a game where we gain and lose points with someone based on our actions. Each act of trust is worth 1 point. Each act of distrust is worth increasingly more points. ... Except when someone is clearly still learning and improving.
It's a necessary process. It's built into our physiology. It's how we judge where it's best to put our trust and where it's best to withhold it for now or indefinitely. Anyone who pretends that process doesn't exist to be "polite" or "nonjudgemental" is going to be handicapped in dealing with people. And perhaps pass that handicap onto their kids.
To bring it back to unschooling, we as humans are hardwired to learn. That can be given the benefit of the doubt until someone trusts. Many people don't or can't give their children's ability to learn the benefit of doubt because of warped (by school) expectations of what that learning is supposed to look like (along the way and at the end of 17 years.)
But even though humans are hardwired to learn -- which, if someone is beginning unschooling, can be accepted as true until someone trusts from seeing it that it's true -- how much and how well humans learn depends on the environment. If it's rich and responsive to the individual's needs, that person will learn a lot. The more it's lacking in either of those, the less the person will learn.
A child and its environment are like a car and fuel. From a lifetime of experience you can trust that a brand new car has a fully functioning engine. But if there's no fuel or the fuel isn't the right kind for that engine, it's not going to be able to function. And if someone's only experience is cars being fed kerosene instead of gasoline they aren't going to trust that the engine will do what it needs to do.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I do think confidence works pretty well as a clearer word than trust. I've been thinking about it today as I've gone about my business. One could easily replace the word "trust" with the word "confidence" in many of the instances that I have used the word "trust".-=-
"Faith" might eve be better.
-=-I was thinking about all the things that schools don't claim to teach kids, the things that kids might need to know also. Things like having healthy relationships, being kind to smaller, younger people and animals, knowing when to get out of situations that don't work well, making thoughtful choices. Those are all things that my kids learned in a direct way because of unschooling. Each of those things took an element of trust, on my part, that my kids had some good ideas and knew pretty well how to navigate these things.-=-
Okay. Those are all learning, too, but things that they weren't going to have learned in school anyway.
You had faith that those things could be learned, and that your kids had good intentions.
Faith in a process, faith in human nature.
I guess trust needs to be earned. One needs to prove himself trustWORTHy.
Faith, though, isn't earned. It's about the beliefs of the believer, not about the outside world.
People can lose faith, but it takes longer than losing trust, I think.
Perhaps the CurriculumSchmiculum writer didn't have enough faith OR trust, and didn't have the tools to build confidence. And she needed people to help her work through her concerns. She waited too long, maybe thinking she must be come kind of expert because she was being published in magazines. :-)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
"Faith" might eve be better.
-=-I was thinking about all the things that schools don't claim to teach kids, the things that kids might need to know also. Things like having healthy relationships, being kind to smaller, younger people and animals, knowing when to get out of situations that don't work well, making thoughtful choices. Those are all things that my kids learned in a direct way because of unschooling. Each of those things took an element of trust, on my part, that my kids had some good ideas and knew pretty well how to navigate these things.-=-
Okay. Those are all learning, too, but things that they weren't going to have learned in school anyway.
You had faith that those things could be learned, and that your kids had good intentions.
Faith in a process, faith in human nature.
I guess trust needs to be earned. One needs to prove himself trustWORTHy.
Faith, though, isn't earned. It's about the beliefs of the believer, not about the outside world.
People can lose faith, but it takes longer than losing trust, I think.
Perhaps the CurriculumSchmiculum writer didn't have enough faith OR trust, and didn't have the tools to build confidence. And she needed people to help her work through her concerns. She waited too long, maybe thinking she must be come kind of expert because she was being published in magazines. :-)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Marina DeLuca-Howard
Whatever her intention maybe she got caught up in a chicken or egg
argument? Like does trust or faith self-perpetuate or do you start from a
position of disbelieving, not trusting and learn to believe based on
evidence? Then one would be stuck with recognizing the evidence that the
path is on the right track, when it may not come with easy to read signs
and the directions are in another language altogether.
It is certainly an interesting discussion. And I have not thought of these
ideas in a while.
Semantics :)
Maybe hope is also part of faith, and trust and allows us to keep long term
goals when things seem to, in the short term, be awry. It allows for more
effort, more evaluation. Hope things will work out allows us to accept our
errors and try again. Even if we are no longer sure, we can have hope that
our belief in a general principle will help us find the steps to live out
what we want. For the author it may have been losing hope and reverting to
mainstream educational practices. But there is a denial that she did this.
She is dressing conventional parenting up and conventional education
choices as unschooling. That is really unhelpful for unschoolers looking
for guidance or practical information of how things will work out.
Marina
argument? Like does trust or faith self-perpetuate or do you start from a
position of disbelieving, not trusting and learn to believe based on
evidence? Then one would be stuck with recognizing the evidence that the
path is on the right track, when it may not come with easy to read signs
and the directions are in another language altogether.
It is certainly an interesting discussion. And I have not thought of these
ideas in a while.
Semantics :)
Maybe hope is also part of faith, and trust and allows us to keep long term
goals when things seem to, in the short term, be awry. It allows for more
effort, more evaluation. Hope things will work out allows us to accept our
errors and try again. Even if we are no longer sure, we can have hope that
our belief in a general principle will help us find the steps to live out
what we want. For the author it may have been losing hope and reverting to
mainstream educational practices. But there is a denial that she did this.
She is dressing conventional parenting up and conventional education
choices as unschooling. That is really unhelpful for unschoolers looking
for guidance or practical information of how things will work out.
Marina
On 11 April 2012 11:02, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
> **
>
>
> -=-I do think confidence works pretty well as a clearer word than trust.
> I've been thinking about it today as I've gone about my business. One could
> easily replace the word "trust" with the word "confidence" in many of the
> instances that I have used the word "trust".-=-
>
> "Faith" might eve be better.
>
> -=-I was thinking about all the things that schools don't claim to teach
> kids, the things that kids might need to know also. Things like having
> healthy relationships, being kind to smaller, younger people and animals,
> knowing when to get out of situations that don't work well, making
> thoughtful choices. Those are all things that my kids learned in a direct
> way because of unschooling. Each of those things took an element of trust,
> on my part, that my kids had some good ideas and knew pretty well how to
> navigate these things.-=-
>
> Okay. Those are all learning, too, but things that they weren't going to
> have learned in school anyway.
>
> You had faith that those things could be learned, and that your kids had
> good intentions.
>
> Faith in a process, faith in human nature.
>
> I guess trust needs to be earned. One needs to prove himself trustWORTHy.
> Faith, though, isn't earned. It's about the beliefs of the believer, not
> about the outside world.
>
> People can lose faith, but it takes longer than losing trust, I think.
>
> Perhaps the CurriculumSchmiculum writer didn't have enough faith OR trust,
> and didn't have the tools to build confidence. And she needed people to
> help her work through her concerns. She waited too long, maybe thinking she
> must be come kind of expert because she was being published in magazines.
> :-)
> Sandra
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
--
Bread and Roses
http://breadandrosescentennial.org/
Trust, Equality and Goodwill
It's not just that the ends do not justify the means (though they don't),
you will never achieve the ends at all unless the means are themselves a
model for the world you wish to create. .*David Graeber*
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
On Wed, Apr 11, 2012 at 7:42 AM, Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...>wrote:
Except when someone is clearly still learning and improving.
This is what I have confidence in -- that my kids (and myself and my
husband and my friends and extended family) are still learning and
improving.
The word "trust" has some baggage associated with it - kind of like the
word "respect" has -- I distrust them <G>.
When people have said "trust me," for example, they've quite often turned
out to not be entirely trustworthy. When people ask, "Don't you trust me?"
it is often a passive-aggressive move.
"Trust" makes a better buzz word -- works well in book titles and
conference names and slogans. "Have Confidence in the Children's Innate
Urge to Learn" doesn't have the ring of "Trust the Children." But it means
more to me and seems more clear and useful in a real conversation.
I also am a little bothered by unschoolers saying they "trust" their
children to learn because it gives the impression that the kids are
entirely responsible - that they can be trusted to be left to learn on
their own. I think that's an overstatement - our kids need adults in their
lives who support their learning and create and protect an environment that
supports their learning and growing in happy and competent ways.
Yes, kids will learn no matter what... we can trust that they will be
always learning...but, if parents are sitting back "trusting" that they
will learn, they could be learning that the world is mean and brutal or
boring or that might makes right or that learning is difficult or all kinds
of other things that we don't want them to learn.
My husband and I didn't trust, for example, that our kids would fill their
own lives with joy and wonder and peace and happiness....we worked really
hard (and with great joy, ourselves) to create a lifestyle for our family
that would be expansive and stimulating and richly rewarding in learning
opportunities.
Much of my slightly negative feeling about the word "trust" is because I'm
growing a little concerned that unschoolers are increasingly focusing more
on trust and freedom and less on the parental role of "bringing the world
to our children and our children to the world" (as John Holt put it - not
quite a direct quote). I might be wrong - but I'm getting that impression
from online discussions and from spending a lot of (off-line/real life)
time with quite a few unschoolers. Mostly that impression is coming from
the kinds of questions newish unschoolers are asking like, "Is it okay for
me to suggest a book to read to my child?"
-pam
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lukesmama2003
<<<Much of my slightly negative feeling about the word "trust" is because I'm
growing a little concerned that unschoolers are increasingly focusing more
on trust and freedom and less on the parental role of "bringing the world
to our children and our children to the world" (as John Holt put it - not
quite a direct quote). I might be wrong - but I'm getting that impression
from online discussions and from spending a lot of (off-line/real life)
time with quite a few unschoolers. Mostly that impression is coming from
the kinds of questions newish unschoolers are asking like, "Is it okay for
me to suggest a book to read to my child?"
I do think I always tried to bring the world to my kids and to partner with them. But early on, I was unsure how to do that exactly. I read on Sandra Dodds site, Joyce site and also had read quite a bit of Naomi Aldort. And while I have come to view Naomi's advice much differently over the years (in that I don't follow it ;) her book and specifically her steps described out in SALVE did give me a starting point to make some changes and a guide to how to respond in the type of situations. I was I also remember reading some posts back then where someone suggested that we shouldn't need to tell our kids we love them because that should be assumed in everything we do an since our actions speak louder than words the actual words "I love you" were unnecessary and almost condescending. I thought that was over the top and never adopted that viewpoint myself.
I think "trust" still has a place though. I think it depends on who you are addressing. I think it was a way for me to embrace the process. Naomi talked(s) a lot about "trust" and that resonated with me in the beginning. I am a midwife apprentice. Had homebirths, etc. And we often said "trust the process, this is what your body is meant to do and you are capable" Or something like that. So I did trust the process with regard to birth. I did not hold on to fear or even that a woman HAD to birth at home or without drugs or whatever. But in my trust of of the process I think I was a good support person to all those mothers whose births I attended. In that same vein, I have trusted things about this journey we are as parents, but not without really looking at what I am doing, my reactions, my hesitations, in exploring ways I can build my relationships with my children and husband.
I think it might also be useful with seasoned unschoolers who are already very engaged with their kids, doing all these things and just need a reminder that it is part of the process. Or as a way to embrace what happens in life so you are not stuck in a downward, negative spiral. There are ways to find the joy or at least peace when faced with the tougher situations in life. Again I think it comes down to who are you listening to, who are you reading etc. And there is no way to control that. However, I do like the use of "confidence" instead, though for giving a more clear picture of what you are really talking about especially if the audience is new unschoolers.
Karen
growing a little concerned that unschoolers are increasingly focusing more
on trust and freedom and less on the parental role of "bringing the world
to our children and our children to the world" (as John Holt put it - not
quite a direct quote). I might be wrong - but I'm getting that impression
from online discussions and from spending a lot of (off-line/real life)
time with quite a few unschoolers. Mostly that impression is coming from
the kinds of questions newish unschoolers are asking like, "Is it okay for
me to suggest a book to read to my child?"
>>Interesting to see it put this way. I think I was hung up on that word as a way to describe our lifestyle (whether it be to myself or to someone who asked) back in the beginning of our journey. I also described it once or twice as "child-led learning" too and now I cringe at that a little bit. ;) I can now see the problem with both and can see how it not only muddied my own thought process but also probably did nothing to help others understand it either.
I do think I always tried to bring the world to my kids and to partner with them. But early on, I was unsure how to do that exactly. I read on Sandra Dodds site, Joyce site and also had read quite a bit of Naomi Aldort. And while I have come to view Naomi's advice much differently over the years (in that I don't follow it ;) her book and specifically her steps described out in SALVE did give me a starting point to make some changes and a guide to how to respond in the type of situations. I was I also remember reading some posts back then where someone suggested that we shouldn't need to tell our kids we love them because that should be assumed in everything we do an since our actions speak louder than words the actual words "I love you" were unnecessary and almost condescending. I thought that was over the top and never adopted that viewpoint myself.
I think "trust" still has a place though. I think it depends on who you are addressing. I think it was a way for me to embrace the process. Naomi talked(s) a lot about "trust" and that resonated with me in the beginning. I am a midwife apprentice. Had homebirths, etc. And we often said "trust the process, this is what your body is meant to do and you are capable" Or something like that. So I did trust the process with regard to birth. I did not hold on to fear or even that a woman HAD to birth at home or without drugs or whatever. But in my trust of of the process I think I was a good support person to all those mothers whose births I attended. In that same vein, I have trusted things about this journey we are as parents, but not without really looking at what I am doing, my reactions, my hesitations, in exploring ways I can build my relationships with my children and husband.
I think it might also be useful with seasoned unschoolers who are already very engaged with their kids, doing all these things and just need a reminder that it is part of the process. Or as a way to embrace what happens in life so you are not stuck in a downward, negative spiral. There are ways to find the joy or at least peace when faced with the tougher situations in life. Again I think it comes down to who are you listening to, who are you reading etc. And there is no way to control that. However, I do like the use of "confidence" instead, though for giving a more clear picture of what you are really talking about especially if the audience is new unschoolers.
Karen
Joyce Fetteroll
On Apr 11, 2012, at 2:44 PM, lukesmama2003 wrote:
But the difference between birthing and unschooling is that in most cases that baby's coming out whether anyone else is there to help or not ;-) The same isn't true of unschooling. While everyone has the mechanisms for giving birth (in women anyway ;-) and the mechanisms for learning, there is no birth without the baby to birth and there is increasingly less learning the less the environment supports the child's desires to explore.
If people are hearing trust in an unschooling context and treating it as in a birthing context, it means they're more likely to make choices that create a child-led environment than a supportive, responsive nest for exploring.
Joyce
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> But in my trust of of the process I think I was a good supportIf someone's in a tizzy about learning coming from curriculum, part of what they need is trust in the natural process of learning.
> person to all those mothers whose births I attended.
But the difference between birthing and unschooling is that in most cases that baby's coming out whether anyone else is there to help or not ;-) The same isn't true of unschooling. While everyone has the mechanisms for giving birth (in women anyway ;-) and the mechanisms for learning, there is no birth without the baby to birth and there is increasingly less learning the less the environment supports the child's desires to explore.
If people are hearing trust in an unschooling context and treating it as in a birthing context, it means they're more likely to make choices that create a child-led environment than a supportive, responsive nest for exploring.
Joyce
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Joyce Fetteroll
On Apr 11, 2012, at 1:49 PM, Pam Sorooshian wrote:
Most requests are from those relatively new to unschooling so it's expected their descriptions will be off. But the form their descriptions take gives insight to what they're hearing, what they need and how their need sifts and transforms what they hear.
It seems every 5th one mentions the word freedom. And if these descriptions are seen as the foundation they're building an understanding of unschooling on, their understanding is going to tilt differently than those who are building a supportive learning atmosphere.
Here's a few. And I'm not making fun, not criticizing. There are internal needs and external messages that are creating these. The more we're aware of what's happening, the easier it will be to make the word choices and bring up the ideas that will help people steer away from these directions -- or make them aware that unschooling isn't what they want.
* Freedom to pursue every desire without limitation, in an environment that is fully supportive.
* Allowing my children the freedom to explore their world and letting them teach themselves by reading, trying and sometimes failing
* Doing something holistic for my child that doesn't include the normal societal ways of raising a child.
* Letting the kids lead.
(I really don't want to be around that first one's kids if they desire to kick my shins ;-) I'm picturing mom cheering them on!)
If someone is using one of those as a basis for unschooling decision making, they're going to find themselves in pickles. And then blame unschooling. ;-) It's how people get the idea that whatever kids want is what parents should make happen. Like watching TV at grandma's when she wants it off during dinner. It's how people get the idea they shouldn't show their kids parts of the world until the kids ask. (How can they ask if they don't know??) It's how kids end up bored when surrounded by a house full of stuff to explore when mom sees herself as creator of the environment and not a vital part of the atmosphere herself.
Joyce
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> Much of my slightly negative feeling about the word "trust" is because I'mI think you're quite right. What's fascinating -- maybe in a train wreck kind of way -- is reading how new members describe radical unschooling as part of the membership process at Radical Unschoolers Network. (The purpose it to make sure they're real people not spambots.)
> growing a little concerned that unschoolers are increasingly focusing more
> on trust and freedom and less on the parental role of "bringing the world
> to our children and our children to the world" (as John Holt put it - not
> quite a direct quote). I might be wrong
Most requests are from those relatively new to unschooling so it's expected their descriptions will be off. But the form their descriptions take gives insight to what they're hearing, what they need and how their need sifts and transforms what they hear.
It seems every 5th one mentions the word freedom. And if these descriptions are seen as the foundation they're building an understanding of unschooling on, their understanding is going to tilt differently than those who are building a supportive learning atmosphere.
Here's a few. And I'm not making fun, not criticizing. There are internal needs and external messages that are creating these. The more we're aware of what's happening, the easier it will be to make the word choices and bring up the ideas that will help people steer away from these directions -- or make them aware that unschooling isn't what they want.
* Freedom to pursue every desire without limitation, in an environment that is fully supportive.
* Allowing my children the freedom to explore their world and letting them teach themselves by reading, trying and sometimes failing
* Doing something holistic for my child that doesn't include the normal societal ways of raising a child.
* Letting the kids lead.
(I really don't want to be around that first one's kids if they desire to kick my shins ;-) I'm picturing mom cheering them on!)
If someone is using one of those as a basis for unschooling decision making, they're going to find themselves in pickles. And then blame unschooling. ;-) It's how people get the idea that whatever kids want is what parents should make happen. Like watching TV at grandma's when she wants it off during dinner. It's how people get the idea they shouldn't show their kids parts of the world until the kids ask. (How can they ask if they don't know??) It's how kids end up bored when surrounded by a house full of stuff to explore when mom sees herself as creator of the environment and not a vital part of the atmosphere herself.
Joyce
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Hope
-="Faith" might eve be better.=-
Faith has too much baggage for me to make any decisions based on it. Faith, from my understanding, is about believing in something in the absence of evidence. Sometimes even in the face of overwhelming, contradictory evidence. I don't simply have faith that my kids learn without being taught, I have evidence.
Much like you said in an earlier post about why you trust your kid with money- you have evidence from past experiences that they are trustworthy. I have evidence from past experience which I base my belief upon. Faith has nothing to do with it.
Hope
Faith has too much baggage for me to make any decisions based on it. Faith, from my understanding, is about believing in something in the absence of evidence. Sometimes even in the face of overwhelming, contradictory evidence. I don't simply have faith that my kids learn without being taught, I have evidence.
Much like you said in an earlier post about why you trust your kid with money- you have evidence from past experiences that they are trustworthy. I have evidence from past experience which I base my belief upon. Faith has nothing to do with it.
Hope
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
To add to what Joyce said I have a video that illustrates it well.
Someone just posted a link on unschooling basics to a mom's youtube videos talking about unschooling
so I watched and clicked on another video from her.
It is clear she is new to it and is still very confused about it. It is clear wherever she is getting her information
from is not great information.
She goes on to say that things are not working out and some of her conclusions, ideas and worries.
I hope this mom has found a place like this list to learn more about unschooling as she needs it.
I know I had ideas I read about that were little by little left behind and replaced by clear ones that made sense and were well thought.
I have come and long way and I am still learning everyday in discussions here.
Here is the video if anyone wants to see.
http://youtu.be/01YGuhXgCyw
Alex Polikowsky
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Someone just posted a link on unschooling basics to a mom's youtube videos talking about unschooling
so I watched and clicked on another video from her.
It is clear she is new to it and is still very confused about it. It is clear wherever she is getting her information
from is not great information.
She goes on to say that things are not working out and some of her conclusions, ideas and worries.
I hope this mom has found a place like this list to learn more about unschooling as she needs it.
I know I had ideas I read about that were little by little left behind and replaced by clear ones that made sense and were well thought.
I have come and long way and I am still learning everyday in discussions here.
Here is the video if anyone wants to see.
http://youtu.be/01YGuhXgCyw
Alex Polikowsky
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Robin Bentley
She's on the Radical Unschoolers Network that Joyce just referenced.
She had lots of fine replies to her questions there, which was *after*
she posted that YouTube video. She hasn't posted since last October,
so maybe things are going better now.
Robin B.
She had lots of fine replies to her questions there, which was *after*
she posted that YouTube video. She hasn't posted since last October,
so maybe things are going better now.
Robin B.
> I hope this mom has found a place like this list to learn more about
> unschooling as she needs it.
>
Sandra Dodd
-=--="Faith" might eve be better.=-
-=-Faith has too much baggage for me to make any decisions based on it. -=-
People make decisions based on less than that every day.
Your baggage is your baggage, and might be worth examining yourself at home. :-) The word itself isn't baggage; your memories and associations taint the situation, and that happens with people, and things, and ideas. Don't pass it on to your kids.
-=-Faith, from my understanding, is about believing in something in the absence of evidence. Sometimes even in the face of overwhelming, contradictory evidence. I don't simply have faith that my kids learn without being taught, I have evidence. -=-
You didn't have evidence right at the beginning, though. Right at first, you took a chance based on something in your own beliefs, or what you saw around you, or read, or what made sense. Somewhere in there, you took a little risk, before enough time and learning passed that you had personal evidence.
-=-Much like you said in an earlier post about why you trust your kid with money- you have evidence from past experiences that they are trustworthy. I have evidence from past experience which I base my belief upon. Faith has nothing to do with it. -=-
Well I didn't start with trust. I started with giving them a chance to try handling a dollar, to get a soda, and bring back the change. I did have faith in their ability, and an indication of their interest in the attempt.
Sandra
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-=-Faith has too much baggage for me to make any decisions based on it. -=-
People make decisions based on less than that every day.
Your baggage is your baggage, and might be worth examining yourself at home. :-) The word itself isn't baggage; your memories and associations taint the situation, and that happens with people, and things, and ideas. Don't pass it on to your kids.
-=-Faith, from my understanding, is about believing in something in the absence of evidence. Sometimes even in the face of overwhelming, contradictory evidence. I don't simply have faith that my kids learn without being taught, I have evidence. -=-
You didn't have evidence right at the beginning, though. Right at first, you took a chance based on something in your own beliefs, or what you saw around you, or read, or what made sense. Somewhere in there, you took a little risk, before enough time and learning passed that you had personal evidence.
-=-Much like you said in an earlier post about why you trust your kid with money- you have evidence from past experiences that they are trustworthy. I have evidence from past experience which I base my belief upon. Faith has nothing to do with it. -=-
Well I didn't start with trust. I started with giving them a chance to try handling a dollar, to get a soda, and bring back the change. I did have faith in their ability, and an indication of their interest in the attempt.
Sandra
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