[email protected]

In a message dated 4/30/2002 11:46:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:


> How did they learn to speak English? This is an incredibly amazing process
> that kids start out without even realizing language exists and within a fe
> years have mastered it. We shrug it off as mysterious but trivial because
> all kids do it.
>
>

Hi all -
I just wanted to add to Joyce's comments about how amazingly mysteriously
children and all people can learn.....

I have 2 Deaf parents and 4 brothers....my parents do not speak....we
communicate strictly through ASL.....When the family was just my older
brother and me, all 4 of us signed to each other.....eventually twins joined
the family and a fourth brother and we went off into preschools too.....I
don't know if any of those factors are relevant but somehow, we all learned
to speak English 'fluently'....we received no formal instruction in English
and we did not get spoken English access in the home....MAYBE some tv but
this was long ago!

This scenario has happened gazillions of times in other families.....

my point is that altho we can't explain HOW it happens, we can clearly see
that it DOES.....

Similarly with reading, math, etc....People learn, period. We can't explain
it.

Schools act like they've got it figured out and profess these grand reading
'programs' but it is clear that not ALL children learn with any method.
Perhaps the children who learn during the time of the method's use really
learned DESPITE the method....??

I try to get away from the hows and whys and just look at the end results
historically.....what has proven to be true?

imo, it has been proven to be true that children have learned to speak and be
around people and read and use numbers and be compassionate and loving
without attending schools or doing 'school at home'....

Have a nice day....
Jane


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sharon Rudd

> Perhaps the children who learn during the time of
> the method's use really
> learned DESPITE the method....??


Yes :-)

Sharon of the Swamp

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

Ann

[email protected] wrote:

I actually have never read any of Holt's books, or any
other
books on unschooling for that matter.
******
Welcome Noelle! I had to laugh when I read this. I've been unschooling for years and I've never read any unschooling books either! I love the lists and I'm on several, but I just don't care for non-fiction books all that often. I guess we are living proof that you can learn to do something in many different ways and that you don't have to open a book if you don't want. I am glad that books are available for those who want to read them. I'm sure they help some people get to unschooling. I'm just glad to hear I'm not alone in never having read John Holt. I'm glad he wrote his books, but I'm also glad my kids and I can enjoy a RU lifestyle without my having to read them.

Ann


---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Literary Child

Hi Ann, thanks for the welcome!! :) I have heard about so many people
turning to unschooling after reading books on the subject, and that's
fabulous. And I'm a book lover to my core. I would probably find the books
interesting and enlightening even though I'm already dedicated to
unschooling, but I have such little time to read for myself with three young
kids, that I like to use that time reading things that are new to me. It's
the same way with being a vegetarian to me...once I made that decision, I
didn't need to read any books on the subject to encourage me. When my
choices come from the heart, I generally don't need anyone affirming them.

I hope I'm not misunderstood...I am in no way disregarding the importance of
the books on the subject of unschooling. I'm certain a lot of them are
fabulous, and I do hope to read some of them when I have more time, but my
point was that I didn't "need" a book to help me decide to unschool...simply
hearing about the concept was enough to hook me!

Thanks for writing, Ann. Glad to be in the same boat with ya! :)

Noelle
http://literarychild.com



On 3/1/06, Ann <ann_mv05@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> [email protected] wrote:
>
> I actually have never read any of Holt's books, or any
> other
> books on unschooling for that matter.
> ******
> Welcome Noelle! I had to laugh when I read this. I've been unschooling
> for years and I've never read any unschooling books either! I love the
> lists and I'm on several, but I just don't care for non-fiction books all
> that often. I guess we are living proof that you can learn to do something
> in many different ways and that you don't have to open a book if you don't
> want. I am glad that books are available for those who want to read them.
> I'm sure they help some people get to unschooling. I'm just glad to hear
> I'm not alone in never having read John Holt. I'm glad he wrote his books,
> but I'm also glad my kids and I can enjoy a RU lifestyle without my having
> to read them.
>
> Ann
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! Mail
> Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail makes sharing a breeze.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> SPONSORED LINKS
> Unschooling<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Unschooling&w1=Unschooling&w2=Attachment+parenting&w3=John+holt&w4=Parenting+magazine&w5=Single+parenting&c=5&s=104&.sig=O82AQhD_DXKdsA55u0IORA> Attachment
> parenting<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Attachment+parenting&w1=Unschooling&w2=Attachment+parenting&w3=John+holt&w4=Parenting+magazine&w5=Single+parenting&c=5&s=104&.sig=mWlG37faHBsTH26WLfJbUw> John
> holt<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=John+holt&w1=Unschooling&w2=Attachment+parenting&w3=John+holt&w4=Parenting+magazine&w5=Single+parenting&c=5&s=104&.sig=aXLviSaeQBQ0Koa1fFBC0w> Parenting
> magazine<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Parenting+magazine&w1=Unschooling&w2=Attachment+parenting&w3=John+holt&w4=Parenting+magazine&w5=Single+parenting&c=5&s=104&.sig=1vVhu6yG9zKP6tD21Ys9qw> Single
> parenting<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Single+parenting&w1=Unschooling&w2=Attachment+parenting&w3=John+holt&w4=Parenting+magazine&w5=Single+parenting&c=5&s=104&.sig=86a8STGJlXAgNag9XEqGWA>
> ------------------------------
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>
>
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>
>
> ------------------------------
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

On Mar 1, 2006, at 9:58 AM, Literary Child wrote:

> I hope I'm not misunderstood...I am in no way disregarding the
> importance of
> the books on the subject of unschooling.

There are very few books on unschooling, but there are a fair number
of books on how learning works, and on how to be a gentle and mindful
parent.

On the small print problem, I think you'll need to go to your
browser preferences and change how you're reading e-mail or something.

Sandra

nellebelle

>>>>>>>>>I'm just glad to hear I'm not alone in never having read John Holt.>>>>>>>>>>>>

OK, I have to ask. Why would people join a list with this in the description:
"Discussion for homeschooling fans of John Holt, whose books Learning All the Time, Never Too Late, and Teach your Own have made unschooling a sweet and viable option for thousands of families."
if you had never read anything by Holt?


>>>>>>>>>but I just don't care for non-fiction books all that often>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


I went through a period of years where I read mostly non-fiction. I felt that I didn't have time for fiction or didn't want to bother with it or something. Now I read a nice mix of both.

Mary Ellen

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

Some people join lists without going through the front gate, as it were.
There friends tell them about the list, or they find an e-mail and
extrapolate from that how to join directly by e-mail (because all the
yahoolists worth the same way as to direct subscription and
"unsubscribe."

I haven't read EVERY John Holt book. Half of them, maybe. Recently
I bought an obscure one for Deb Lewis because she's reading all of
them, and I wanted to add to her collection in exchange for the
reviews she has written (they're more than reviews, really—they're
useful summaries) and let me put in public.

And there are several interviews linked from http://sandradodd.com/
johnholt

Someone can be a fan of the ideas of a philosopher without reading
his original stuff in German or Greek or whatever, but from reading
what others have summarized in their own native language. That's okay.

Sandra


On Mar 1, 2006, at 12:11 PM, nellebelle wrote:

> OK, I have to ask. Why would people join a list with this in the
> description:
> "Discussion for homeschooling fans of John Holt, whose books
> Learning All the Time, Never Too Late, and Teach your Own have made
> unschooling a sweet and viable option for thousands of families."
> if you had never read anything by Holt?

Literary Child

Well, the group is called Always Learning, not John Holt...and I hate to
have to defend my right to be here if you feel that those of us who haven't
read his work are unwelcome. The description of the group also goes on to
say: "It's an idea group and is intended to lean more toward pure
unschooling than neutral, general homeschooling discussion�there are
hundreds of general homeschooling discussions for newcomers. It's to focus
more toward how people learn no matter where in the world they are, rather
than on what's legal in any particular country or jurisdiction."

I feel that that part of the description of the group fits me and my family,
so I thought it would be a place I could learn from and enjoy. So I can
only answer for myself, but that is my the answer to the question you posed.
Now if I found that every message was about John Holt or subjects only
understood by reading his books, I'm sure I would leave the list. And if
the moderator wants me to leave because I haven't read the books, then she
certainly has the right to ask me to.

Noelle
http://literarychild.com


On 3/1/06, nellebelle <nellebelle@...> wrote:
>
> >>>>>>>>>I'm just glad to hear I'm not alone in never having read John
> Holt.>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> OK, I have to ask. Why would people join a list with this in the
> description:
> "Discussion for homeschooling fans of John Holt, whose books Learning All
> the Time, Never Too Late, and Teach your Own have made unschooling a sweet
> and viable option for thousands of families."
> if you had never read anything by Holt?
>
> ------------------------------
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Literary Child

Yes, I agree wholeheartedly!

Noelle
http://literarychild.com

On 3/1/06, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> Someone can be a fan of the ideas of a philosopher without reading
> his original stuff in German or Greek or whatever, but from reading
> what others have summarized in their own native language. That's okay.
>
> Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

cathyandgarth

--- In [email protected], "nellebelle" <nellebelle@...>
wrote:
> OK, I have to ask. Why would people join a list with this in the
description:
> "Discussion for homeschooling fans of John Holt, whose books
Learning All the Time, Never Too Late, and Teach your Own have made
unschooling a sweet and viable option for thousands of families."
> if you had never read anything by Holt?
> Mary Ellen
>

Well, I have read John Holt, but I must admit that, with the
exception of Learning All the Time, I liked the other Unschooling
books I have read way better. I liked the real life descriptions in
The Unprocessed Child and Homeschooling Our Children, Unschooling
Ourselves -- they gave me a real notion as to what unschooling would
look like and feel like, beyond the theory. And I felt like I got
more appicable information out of Alfie Kohn's books regarding
trusting my children -- and he isn't even writing 'unschooling'
books. Besides, some of Holt's stuff is getting out-dated (Teach
Your Own and Instead of Education), and he makes a few parenting
comments that really rubbed me the wrong way. Of course I recommend
him to anyone, but I just wanted to express my feelings on
why "people would join a list" with Holt mentioned in the
description.

Cathy

Sandra Dodd

On Mar 1, 2006, at 2:52 PM, cathyandgarth wrote:

> some of Holt's stuff is getting out-dated (Teach
> Your Own and Instead of Education), and he makes a few parenting
> comments that really rubbed me the wrong way.

=========

Well he wasn't a parent! And he never unschooled. <g>

But still his ideas were seminal and helping all this come about. If
it hadn't been for him and other late-60's, early 70's school
reformers, I don't think I'd be doing what I'm doing.

Sandra

nellebelle

>>>>>>>>>>I hate to have to defend my right to be here if you feel that
>>>>>>>>>>those of us who haven't
read his work are unwelcome.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I didn't mean it in a "you shouldn't be here" way. I was simply curious.
Thanks for explaining!

Mary Ellen

hyk_knutson

Hi,
I thought I should introduce myself. I am Teresa, I have one child,
Ben who is 11, and also has a diagnosis of PDD, NOS, on the autism
spectrum.

We live in Minnesota. My son didn't go to school until he was in 2nd
grade. There was a new charter school that seemed to have a program
that might work for Ben.

He was really stressed out most of the time (which makes me feel
bad), but he did also get something out of it, like a best friend,
and learned a few things. I was nervous about sending him and ended
up spending most of the day at the school volunteering so I could
take a peek periodically and see how he was doing.

So he went to this school for a few years. This last year, his best
friend got angry with Ben for some reason, and decided he wasn't
going to talk to him anymore. He got a few other students to join in
on the ignoring. Most of the class was giving him the cold shoulder,
acting like he wasn't there. My son was becoming sadder and more
withdrawn and I didn't know why. He tried to tell me, and actually
did a pretty good job, but I didn't understand how serious it was, or
realize how much it affected him. I feel horrible I didn't pull him
sooner.

The school didn't notice it was happening, and when it was finally
figured out, they refused to do anything about it.

So, I decided I needed to pull him out. I hated seeing what was
happening to him, to his self worth and feeling of emotional safety.
For many months it seemed he was afraid I would abandon him too, like
his best friend. He is still quite clingy, and needs to know where I
am or be with me all the time.

I am going to keep him out of school. I need to learn more about
unschooling, but it really appeals to me.

We practice attachment parenting, but haven't been able to find any
other families who have children on the autism spectrum who also
parent this way.

I was just wondering if there is anyone on the list who has a child
with autism or special needs who is also unschooling, that would be
willing to share with me a bit of their story and how things are
working out for them.

Thanks!

Teresa

Ren Allen

~~I was just wondering if there is anyone on the list who has a child
with autism or special needs who is also unschooling, that would be
willing to share with me a bit of their story and how things are
working out for them.~~

Once you're outside the school system there is no need for those
labels. Many of us have children who would have probably been slapped
with a label but we choose to simply live our lives free of all that.

Unschooling works for any and all children. The same philosophies
apply, even though the way it plays out and the needs of each child
are so very different.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

Chrisi Lewis

>
> I was just wondering if there is anyone on the list who has a child
> with autism or special needs who is also unschooling, that would be
> willing to share with me a bit of their story and how things are
> working out for them.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Teresa
>
I don't have a child with autism, but I might have an encouraging
example anyway. My husband has autism and severe dyslexia. His mom
hadn't heard the term unschooling back then, but she says that's how
she raised him. He never had anything forced on him, including
special programs for autistic kids or school of any kind. She just
let him do whatever came naturally for him at the time. I think
unschooling works for everybody. It worked beautifully for him.
He's 39 now, and he's a Production Engineer for Turner Broadcasting.
He's been working with the same people since he was 18 years old. He
became an Engineer through apprenticing rather than college. Also,
his mom never, ever told him he had autism or dyslexia when he was
growing up. Her famous line for his autistic behavior was, "Oh,
everybody has their quirks." I certainly didn't think there was
anything "wrong" with him when I met him.

Just thought I'd share :)
Chrisi

Sandra Dodd

-=-Unschooling works for any and all children. The same philosophies
apply, even though the way it plays out and the needs of each child
are so very different.-=-

Yes. There are some, and I've known some in person whose kids are
big now, late teens or young adults. They're "ahead of the game"
compared to kids who went to school and were teased and shamed and
shunned for thirteen years. Just that alone, the avoidance of the
social troubles, might be enough basis for a choice, but you'll see
more advantages as time passes.

Treating a person as a whole person makes a whole world of difference.

Try to stop using the labels, and you'll be a giant step closer to
not thinking the labels.



Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ren Allen

~~Her famous line for his autistic behavior was, "Oh,
everybody has their quirks." I certainly didn't think there was
anything "wrong" with him when I met him.~~

Wow. What an amazing woman to buck the system at that time! How cool.
This made my heart all happy this morning.Thanks for sharing.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

k

>
> Treating a person as a whole person makes a whole world of difference.
>
> Try to stop using the labels, and you'll be a giant step closer to not
> thinking the labels.



A good reason not to use labels is to protect the child's sense of self.
Here's a link having to do with some of society's extreme perceptions of
autism: http://www.autistics.org/library/acceptance.html

An adult autistic who doesn't want a cure (and there are a lot of autistics
.. even low functioning ones, who don't want to be cured):
http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/james-medhurst/2007/02/magic-wand-cure-disability

The best reason for using a label is to apply it proudly and wear it as a
sign of self-acceptance. I'm hearing disabled and I like the person I am a
lot. :D Wouldn't change that for anything.

~Katherine


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

k

>
> The best reason for using a label is to apply it proudly and wear it as a
> sign of self-acceptance. I'm hearing disabled and I like the person I am a
> lot. :D Wouldn't change that for anything.
>
>
Labels are best applied by the person wearing them. Even in as simple a
thing as changing your name if you prefer some other name better.... for
instance, I was called a nickname when I was young and at some point I
wanted to be called Katherine which is my middle name. It was a friendly
nickname and all but I decided Katherine was my name.

~Katherine


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

hyk_knutson

Christi,
What a wonderful story you have shared, thank you! Very
inspiring.

My son was quite severely autistic when he was young. He wasn't
capable of conversations; he just echoed back words and phrases he
had heard in Disney movies and books I had read him. What he echoed
never fit the situation. He spent all day either jumping up and
down, or rocking back and forth flapping his hands. He never
responded to his name and tantrummed almost all day long. He wasn't
having tantrums because I had told him "no," but because of something
inside of him that I didn't understand at the time. He didn't know
how to play, had no imagination. He was just sort of locked inside
himself.

Finding out he had autism helped point me in the right direction to
help him. He didn't get the diagnosis until he was almost 4. His
doctor, like many pediatricians at the time didn't know much about
autism either. Shortly after I changed his diet, took out all gluten
and dairy and artificial ingredients, as is recommended by some (not
mainstream) for children with autism. He started talking
spontaneously after this diet change, no echoing after 2 weeks.

Play therapy helped me learn how to join him in his world and connect
with him, so he could join our world. I met an amazing person, a
therapist, who taught me how to play with him, how to connect with
him. I played with him every moment possible. Slowly, but surely
over time he started to blossom and his imagination started to grow.
Now his imagination is enormous and he loves to play. However he
still struggles with playing by himself. He always wants me or
someone with him, which is fine because I love keeping the connection
strong.

I can see the great value in not having labels, in their affect on a
person's self esteem. People are people; we all have our different
ways.

But for us, the diagnosis gave me a jumping point, a place to look to
help him feel better, to be able to connect with him. I wouldn't
have thought to look to a diet to help him, or have known about the
play therapy, or met the person who taught me how to do it, if I
didn't have the label autism to start with. I saw many children at
his school who couldn't have conversations, and did all the things my
son used to do. I am certain that without the diet and the play
therapy, he'd still be doing those things, and be locked inside.

Now, at this point, he is considered "high functioning." I am
excited to move to the next step and help him grow more and blossom
by doing what he wants to do. The label was relevant also for
school. In fact they made it central. Now we are at a place where
we can slip off the autism label and he can just be Ben.

Thanks to all who responded to my initial email! I would really love
to hear from someone else who has experienced this first hand. I
have had one wonderful email from such a person, and would like to
get more, if there are any others out there.

Thanks again,
Teresa




--- In [email protected], "Chrisi Lewis"
<chrisi.lewis@...> wrote:
>
> >
> > I was just wondering if there is anyone on the list who has a
child
> > with autism or special needs who is also unschooling, that would
be
> > willing to share with me a bit of their story and how things are
> > working out for them.
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> > Teresa
> >
> I don't have a child with autism, but I might have an encouraging
> example anyway. My husband has autism and severe dyslexia. His
mom
> hadn't heard the term unschooling back then, but she says that's
how
> she raised him. He never had anything forced on him, including
> special programs for autistic kids or school of any kind. She just
> let him do whatever came naturally for him at the time. I think
> unschooling works for everybody. It worked beautifully for him.
> He's 39 now, and he's a Production Engineer for Turner
Broadcasting.
> He's been working with the same people since he was 18 years old.
He
> became an Engineer through apprenticing rather than college. Also,
> his mom never, ever told him he had autism or dyslexia when he was
> growing up. Her famous line for his autistic behavior was, "Oh,
> everybody has their quirks." I certainly didn't think there was
> anything "wrong" with him when I met him.
>
> Just thought I'd share :)
> Chrisi
>

J Geller

> Try to stop using the labels, and you'll be a giant step closer to not
> thinking the labels.

But labels can also help with communication, support and research. When they realized that I was dyslexic, I got the support that I needed, which was different from what I would have needed if I had a different issue. Right now I am starting to get hot flashes. I need that label to try and figure out ways of dealing with them. I can use the label to identify what is going on, research options and then figure out what I want to do about it. (the I is bolded) My middle son did a Myers-Briggs inventory. He scored 100% extrovert. The person who did the inventory had never seen anyone who was as strongly extroverted on that scale. I haven't either. A good friend of his is an introvert. They know that about each other and it helps their friendship to be able to communicate their needs. When my son is at their house and his friend needs time to himself, my son hangs out with the brother and sister. Everyone wins because they identify and communicate their needs and the labels help them do that.

When labels are used to demystify, explain, get support, provide insight and help, they are good. When they are used to discriminate, judge, exclude, put down or ridicule, they are bad. It isn't the labels that are bad. The labels are what they are; they are descriptions. It is how they are used that is good or bad.

When someone on the list used the label "autistic behavior" or "autism", I had a good picture in my head about the kinds of issues that they are dealing with. Same with the label dyslexia. Using the label "unschooler" helps me to find other families with a similar learning and parenting philosophy. I use the label proudly, but others may use it in a derogatory manner. I don't share the label of my religion because I worry about people's reaction. It isn't my religion or even the label that I have a problem with, it is the reaction of others.

And don't get me going on gay rights.

Jae G







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

almadoing

I have a 6 year old son with a dx of Aspergers Syndrome. He acquired
this label at 3 years old, before we discovered unschooling, never
mind radical unschooling. But I would like to reassure you that not
only is it possible to radically unschool a child with an autistic
spectrum dx but that it was, in fact, my DS that led us to radical
unschooling. Mainstream parenting simply didn't "work" and DH and I
were forced to take a long, hard look at our son and our parenting
assumptions. I knew DS would not survive in school, so keeping him at
home was the first step for us. Punishment looked cruel when clearly
he couldn't help his behaviour, trying to get his attention focussed
on something that wasn't his agenda was nigh on impossible and … you
get the picture. The long , hard look led to research and the
discovery of radical unschooling and, while still learning, we have
not looked back. Our younger DS (age 3) may well have "issues" too,
but we have never sought an outside opinion and he has always been
radically unschooled to the best of our (improving) abilities. Both
sons are now thriving, as are both parents.
I wish you and Ben all the best.
Alison
in the UK with DH, DS1 (6) and DS2 (3)



--- In [email protected], "hyk_knutson" <Hyk-
Knutson@...> wrote:
>
> Hi,
> I thought I should introduce myself. I am Teresa, I have one
child,
> Ben who is 11, and also has a diagnosis of PDD, NOS, on the autism
> spectrum.

>
> I was just wondering if there is anyone on the list who has a child
> with autism or special needs who is also unschooling, that would be
> willing to share with me a bit of their story and how things are
> working out for them.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Teresa
>

Sandra Dodd

-=-But labels can also help with communication, support and research.
When they realized that I was dyslexic, I got the support that I
needed, which was different from what I would have needed if I had a
different issue.-=-

Had you been unschooled, it would have made no difference. Dyslexic
kids learn the same way anyone learns, with unschooling. They learn
to draw and to read and to write in a way that works for them.

-=-Right now I am starting to get hot flashes. I need that label to
try and figure out ways of dealing with them.-=-

Maybe. But you don't need to refer to yourself as heat-regulatory
disabled.
Here's how to deal with hot flashes: Keep a hand fan nearby. Put an
electric fan by your bed so you won't be blaming your husband or the
builders of your house when it's suddenly way too hot at 3:00 a.m.
Realize that the hot flashes only last a few moments and it's not
going to kill you. (It will feel like it might sometimes, but try
not to whimper and whine or freeze the rest of your family out, as I
do sometimes with the car's air conditioning.) Turns out Prozac
helps, so for those prone to depression, they might want to use
Prozac through the up seasons too, to deal with the hot flashes for a
few years. (It's less invasive than hormone replacement therapy, I'm
pretty sure.)

-=-A good friend of his is an introvert. They know that about each
other and it helps their friendship to be able to communicate their
needs. When my son is at their house and his friend needs time to
himself, my son hangs out with the brother and sister. Everyone wins
because they identify and communicate their needs and the labels help
them do that. -=-

Both extroverts and introverts can get jobs and hold positions of
responsibility and be in mainstream activities. Neither of those
labels sets anyone in a problematical category. Neither is "special
ed."

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

swissarmy_wife

-=-He scored 100% extrovert. The person who did the inventory had
never seen anyone who was as strongly extroverted on that scale. I
haven't either. A good friend of his is an introvert. They know that
about each other and it helps their friendship to be able to
communicate their needs.-=-

You need a label to be able to say "Hey, I need a little space." or
conversely, "Hey I need a little more excitement."

We need to help children identify their needs and communicate them. I
suppose I'm a little introverted. Let's say I was overwhelmed and
needed some space. If I say to someone "I'm an introvert" that
doesn't exactly convey my immediate need. That becomes the excuse for
my need. I don't need an excuse, I need some space.

Oh, and even extroverts need a little space sometimes. <G>

swissarmy_wife

> You need a label to be able to say "Hey, I need a little space." or
> conversely, "Hey I need a little more excitement."
>

Crud. I meant, "You DON'T need..." Sorry!

Clarissa Fetrow

And could you use a little immediate gratification too? I LOVE this, and
find it very helpful for its simple, short analogy. Thank you!


On Sat, Aug 23, 2008 at 3:20 PM, swissarmy_wife <heatherbean@...>wrote:

You need a label to be able to say "Hey, I need a little space." or
> conversely, "Hey I need a little more excitement."
>
> We need to help children identify their needs and communicate them. I
> suppose I'm a little introverted. Let's say I was overwhelmed and
> needed some space. If I say to someone "I'm an introvert" that
> doesn't exactly convey my immediate need. That becomes the excuse for
> my need. I don't need an excuse, I need some space.
>
> Oh, and even extroverts need a little space sometimes. <G>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Clarissa Fetrow

I thought you were just being funny for that part, because I like words, and
it would be fun to have a word for "Now I am a space-needer." :) I did
mean my pleasure and appreciation.
Clarissa

On Sat, Aug 23, 2008 at 3:22 PM, swissarmy_wife <heatherbean@...>wrote:

>
> > You need a label to be able to say "Hey, I need a little space." or
> > conversely, "Hey I need a little more excitement."
> >
>
> Crud. I meant, "You DON'T need..." Sorry!
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

carnationsgalore

> I was just wondering if there is anyone on the list who has a child
> with autism or special needs who is also unschooling, that would be
> willing to share with me a bit of their story and how things are
> working out for them.

Hi Teresa,

My 12 year old son Jeffrey was diagnosed with Aspergers. My other 2
children, Allison 10 yrs. and Claire 16 yrs. are not on the
spectrum. They all respond positively to the unschooling lifestyle
because it allows each of us to be who we are, labels or not.

Jeffrey's day doesn't look that much different from his sister's
day. They each pursue their own thing. Jeffrey does prefer being in
his room alot while his sisters like to be in the family room with
everyone else. He plays video games, builds his Lego creations and
surfs the 'net on his computer. He comes out of his room every so
often to give me a hug and tell me something cool he's found either
in a game or online. I have had people tell me that what I'm
allowing him to do will prevent him from being successful as an
adult. But they feel that way about homeschooling in general.
Jeffrey is still very young. I don't worry at all about preparing
him for his future. I trust he'll let me know what help he needs as
he finds his own path.

My 16 year old has really taken off with making plans for the
future. She's working with great enthusiasm and is really enjoying
herself. But this is the first time I've seen her really serious
about pursuing something specific. I believe it's age and maturity.
Jeffrey simply isn't ready to make major decisions about college or
work plans. He has plenty of time for that. And the same goes for
my 10 yr. old daughter Allison.

Beth M.

k

But the point about labels is not that they should *never* be used. They
work best when we find things that we understand to be about ourselves. Not
the other way around. We don't want to do the labeling work for someone
else.

For instance, my parents wondered if the differences they were having with
me might be due to mental retardation! They said this out loud in my
presence and it had a strong impact on how I felt about myself for years. I
had trouble getting along with family sometimes, for whatever reason, and to
have it put in those terms made me doubt myself, not feel like I had a label
that fit my problem. Just gave me pause and gave me doubt to carry around
for a long time.

Even saying that someone is gifted can have this effect.... if the "gifted"
child doesn't see him/herself that way. It can give one a reason to doubt
oneself, for no other reason than that others have some opinion that isn't
shared.

It's most helpful to give someone tools that might empower others ... like a
child who needs more large muscle activity (whatever the label s/he would
like to have) just needs opportunities to move more freely and in a larger
space when possible.

An external label only helps if a person feels an affinity with it.

~Katherine





On 8/23/08, J Geller <gellerjh@...> wrote:
>
> > Try to stop using the labels, and you'll be a giant step closer to not
> > thinking the labels.
>
> But labels can also help with communication, support and research. When
> they realized that I was dyslexic, I got the support that I needed, which
> was different from what I would have needed if I had a different issue.
> Right now I am starting to get hot flashes. I need that label to try and
> figure out ways of dealing with them. I can use the label to identify what
> is going on, research options and then figure out what I want to do about
> it. (the I is bolded) My middle son did a Myers-Briggs inventory. He scored
> 100% extrovert. The person who did the inventory had never seen anyone who
> was as strongly extroverted on that scale. I haven't either. A good friend
> of his is an introvert. They know that about each other and it helps their
> friendship to be able to communicate their needs. When my son is at their
> house and his friend needs time to himself, my son hangs out with the
> brother and sister. Everyone wins because they identify and communicate
> their needs and the labels help them do that.
>
> When labels are used to demystify, explain, get support, provide insight
> and help, they are good. When they are used to discriminate, judge, exclude,
> put down or ridicule, they are bad. It isn't the labels that are bad. The
> labels are what they are; they are descriptions. It is how they are used
> that is good or bad.
>
> When someone on the list used the label "autistic behavior" or "autism", I
> had a good picture in my head about the kinds of issues that they are
> dealing with. Same with the label dyslexia. Using the label "unschooler"
> helps me to find other families with a similar learning and parenting
> philosophy. I use the label proudly, but others may use it in a derogatory
> manner. I don't share the label of my religion because I worry about
> people's reaction. It isn't my religion or even the label that I have a
> problem with, it is the reaction of others.
>
> And don't get me going on gay rights.
>
> Jae G
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

hyk_knutson

Thank you for sharing this, Alison! I so agree with you about the
cruelty of punishment when a child either can't help it, or feels he
or she has no other choice. Your story is inspiring. I imagine your
experience with your oldest son will serve you well with your
youngest. I wish you and your family the best.

Thanks again,
Teresa


--- In [email protected], "almadoing" <almadoing@...>
wrote:
>
> I have a 6 year old son with a dx of Aspergers Syndrome. He
acquired
> this label at 3 years old, before we discovered unschooling, never
> mind radical unschooling. But I would like to reassure you that not
> only is it possible to radically unschool a child with an autistic
> spectrum dx but that it was, in fact, my DS that led us to radical
> unschooling. Mainstream parenting simply didn't "work" and DH and
I
> were forced to take a long, hard look at our son and our parenting
> assumptions. I knew DS would not survive in school, so keeping him
at
> home was the first step for us. Punishment looked cruel when
clearly
> he couldn't help his behaviour, trying to get his attention
focussed
> on something that wasn't his agenda was nigh on impossible and …
you
> get the picture. The long , hard look led to research and the
> discovery of radical unschooling and, while still learning, we have
> not looked back. Our younger DS (age 3) may well have "issues" too,
> but we have never sought an outside opinion and he has always been
> radically unschooled to the best of our (improving) abilities. Both
> sons are now thriving, as are both parents.
> I wish you and Ben all the best.
> Alison
> in the UK with DH, DS1 (6) and DS2 (3)
>
>
>
> --- In [email protected], "hyk_knutson" <Hyk-
> Knutson@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> > I thought I should introduce myself. I am Teresa, I have one
> child,
> > Ben who is 11, and also has a diagnosis of PDD, NOS, on the
autism
> > spectrum.
>
> >
> > I was just wondering if there is anyone on the list who has a
child
> > with autism or special needs who is also unschooling, that would
be
> > willing to share with me a bit of their story and how things are
> > working out for them.
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> > Teresa
> >
>