[email protected]

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v482/n7383/full/482027a.html
I can't access this article but it is the basis for a number of news stories recently about sugar being poison and that it should be taxed and restricted like tobacco and alcohol are. 
We keep hearing about an obesity epidemic, about increasing prevalence of Type 2 diabetes in children. 
These are some of the thoughts (fears) in my mind as my daughter (3 years old) chooses to eat lots of sugar/candy which I make available to her. 
I guess what I'm really wondering is- am I doing anything differently from parents who have overweight/obese children?  I guess I'm saying it would be the parents' fault if their children are obese and develop health problems because of it.  Aren't those parents offering what their kids want to eat too?
I 'm sure it will help to continue with the variety of foods on the monkey platter (I couldn't believe how excited she was the first time I made one for her, such an easy suggestion to implement and it made her so happy). What else do I need to keep in mind?

Shelly

Jenny Cyphers

***I can't access this article but it is the basis for a number of news stories recently about sugar being poison and that it should be taxed and restricted like tobacco and alcohol are.***

Personally, I don't think alcohol and tobacco should be taxed.  With anything, people will over use it or not.  If we don't want people to get lung cancer, we should cap all volcanic activity in the world so radon doesn't escape.  It sounds absurd right?  


When kids and people have real choices and can choose happily, there won't be all that baggage surrounding things that cause people to over indulge.  

There's this:  http://sciencethatmatters.com/archives/6

It's about Rat Park and how addiction is a situation not a disease.  It makes a lot of sense.  

There's this too:  http://sandradodd.com/t/economics

Marginal utility works the same with food.  The more you restrict it, the more valuable it will seem.

As much as I dislike Monsanto, I seriously doubt his company will allow that to happen, since a very large percentage of the sugar comes from beets and a very large percent of beet seeds come from Monsanto.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

 Aren't those parents offering what their kids want to eat too? 


-=-=-=-=-=-

I know a couple of chubby kids within a group of local  homeschoolers and Cub Scouts that we hang out with.
Those two boys have their food controlled and candy/sugar/snacks limited.
One I know was on a diet when he was about 7 !

They are definitely not eating what they want. One even said that soda/pop was really bad and that he could only get it in special 
occasions.
 Some people  are bigger then others. It can be genetics too. 
Growing up I knew several boys who were husky and they suddenly took off and grew to be really tall guys.
I wonder what would have happened if the parents had them on a diet?

MY dad always loved sugar and sweets. All his live. He would go to a bakery and drink coke with a donuts.
He would enjoy that so much. Still does at 79.
He never developed type 2 diabetes despite eating lots on lots of sugar.

My husband also eats candy/sweets/chocolates and cookies  everyday. Not a little!
He is 49 and in great shape! No diabetes.

I am not a candy/sugar person. I just do not really care for cookies, candy and sweet stuff as much at all.
I also do not drink pop/soda but maybe a few times a month. I like sparkling water much more.
I have been pre-diabetic.
 I am only normal if I am working out , which I do love to.
So there you go!

Alex Polikowsky

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Feb 6, 2012, at 7:58 PM, shellythouse@... wrote:

> These are some of the thoughts (fears) in my mind as my daughter
> (3 years old) chooses to eat lots of sugar/candy which I make available to her.

Little kids have little stomachs and high energy needs. And they're busy people! They're naturally drawn to energy in concentrated form.

Having easy access to a variety is key. That way they can discover what satisfies the signals they're getting from their bodies.

Adults assume their disdain for foods like Cap'n Crunch and Twinkies is because their palates are more sophisticated, that they've learned what foods taste good. But it's because adult bodies have different needs so food tastes different to children and adults.

> I guess I'm saying it would be the parents' fault if their children are
> obese and develop health problems because of it.

Not by a long shot. Families are immersed in a stressful society that -- as suggested by the Rat Park studies -- is a fertile environment for addictive behavior. They are given advice that adds to the stress. And then are being judged as at fault because their kids are obese which adds even more stress which radiates to the kids.

> Aren't those parents
> offering what their kids want to eat too?

The overwhelming mainstream parenting message is about controlling kids' food.

There isn't a way to peer into what's happening in mainstream homes. All you see are the results and the messages that are going in.

Many unschoolers on the list open up their homes through what they write to let you see the inner workings. You can meet them at conferences. You can see their kids.

> What else do I need to keep in mind?

That happiness, peace, freedom from added stress, choice, support, acceptance, trust, compassion are the best nutrition for health. :-)

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Feb 6, 2012, at 7:58 PM, shellythouse@... wrote:

> sugar being poison

If it's true, then the people who aren't treating sugar as poison -- like radical unschoolers -- should show the greatest negative effects of that poison. If it's true radical unschooled kids should be *morbidly* obese and rife with diabetes. But they aren't.

When I was growing up in the 60's sugar wasn't treated as poison and, while there were a few fat kids, it wasn't anything like today.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tori

--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...> wrote:
> If it's true, then the people who aren't treating sugar as poison -- like radical unschoolers -- should show the greatest negative effects of that poison. If it's true radical unschooled kids should be *morbidly* obese and rife with diabetes. But they aren't.
>
> When I was growing up in the 60's sugar wasn't treated as poison and, while there were a few fat kids, it wasn't anything like today.
>
So true! There was a study (I looked, but can't find my link...) done recently about controlling kids' food choices. The outcome of the study showed that the more the access was controlled, the more desirable the food item became. Sadly those who designed the study concluded that parents still HAD TO control their kids' diets even if it resulted in the kids having skewed relationships with food. I'd add that the kids might develop skewed relationships with their parents as well.

Our kids (4.5 yr old girl & boy twins) are free to choose what they eat. We garden organically, raise some of our own meat and rarely buy processed foods, but we also share the joys of chocolate, Pez, potato chips and plenty of other treats that most folks wouldn't label healthy. We almost always have ice cream, candy, cookies and chips at home. Obi and Linka are remarkable in their abilities to know what their own bodies need. And they request fresh fruit, veggies and meals as often as treats. When we're with friends many of the parents ask how we get our kids to eat so well. My answer is that we haven't messed up their ability to know what's right for them. Sadly most parents respond saying, oh that would never work for my kid.

I have to add that reading here is part of what gave me the courage to try this at home. :) Thanks for being here!

sheeboo2

--- So true! There was a study (I looked, but can't find my link...) done recently about controlling kids' food choices. The outcome of the study showed that the more the access was controlled, the more desirable the food item became. ------

There is this one, a few years old, which shows that children are more likely to be overweight when their food choices are regulated, or when parents "pressure" them to eat "healthy":
http://tinyurl.com/7wlbzmt

Brie

joanne.lopers

My daughter eats far more sweets than either of my sons do. The boys will eat it if it is in the house but don't usually ask for it. I forget to buy it sometimes because I don't think about for me. She wakes up remembering the ice cream in the freezer or cake from the night before. I read a long time ago that if a child is asking for sweets they might need some protein. I don't deny her the sweets but I serve the protein as well and she eats both. When we have not had sweets in the house and she asked for them she would then say, "I don't care. I just want to be fed!" We just try and eat most of our food as close to natural as possible but there is lots of room to enjoy the yummy side of life too. We have sugar in the house as well as honey and agave nectare to sweeten things with. It's not all or nothing for us. Everyone is healthy and fit so far.

Joanne

--- In [email protected], "Tori" <tandosmama@...> wrote:
>
> --- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@> wrote:
> > If it's true, then the people who aren't treating sugar as poison -- like radical unschoolers -- should show the greatest negative effects of that poison. If it's true radical unschooled kids should be *morbidly* obese and rife with diabetes. But they aren't.
> >
> > When I was growing up in the 60's sugar wasn't treated as poison and, while there were a few fat kids, it wasn't anything like today.
> >
> So true! There was a study (I looked, but can't find my link...) done recently about controlling kids' food choices. The outcome of the study showed that the more the access was controlled, the more desirable the food item became. Sadly those who designed the study concluded that parents still HAD TO control their kids' diets even if it resulted in the kids having skewed relationships with food. I'd add that the kids might develop skewed relationships with their parents as well.
>
> Our kids (4.5 yr old girl & boy twins) are free to choose what they eat. We garden organically, raise some of our own meat and rarely buy processed foods, but we also share the joys of chocolate, Pez, potato chips and plenty of other treats that most folks wouldn't label healthy. We almost always have ice cream, candy, cookies and chips at home. Obi and Linka are remarkable in their abilities to know what their own bodies need. And they request fresh fruit, veggies and meals as often as treats. When we're with friends many of the parents ask how we get our kids to eat so well. My answer is that we haven't messed up their ability to know what's right for them. Sadly most parents respond saying, oh that would never work for my kid.
>
> I have to add that reading here is part of what gave me the courage to try this at home. :) Thanks for being here!
>

Pam Sorooshian

On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 3:27 AM, Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...>wrote:

> That happiness, peace, freedom from added stress, choice, support,
> acceptance, trust, compassion are the best nutrition for health. :-)



All that and having a nice wide variety of high nutrient and appealing
foods available, too. Kids will usually go for the quick, tasty, and high
energy foods. If there is a bowl of candy on the table, within easy reach
- kids will likely go for that since it fills all three needs - they can
get it quickly themselves, it has a lot of energy in it (calories) which
they need, and it tastes good.

So it takes a little more effort to make sure that other high-nutrition
foods are as easy and quick and as tasty as things like candy. But it isn't
THAT hard - slice some apples and sprinkle with cinnamon. Put out little
tasty seasoned whole grain crackers and peanut butter or humus. Those fake
baby carrots (real carrots, not babies <G>), are so appealing to children
and especially when dipped in Ranch dressing or something like that. Make
whole grain toast and put a little honey on it and cut it into small
triangles.

I'd come home from school super hungry and my mom used to say, "Eat a
carrot," but that was daunting. In those days, carrots came with all their
greenery still attached and we had to either scrub them or peel them before
eating. She'd say, "Eat an apple," but the cold crisp apples hurt my
teeth/gums when I'd bit into one. She'd have hard boiled eggs for us to
eat, but they had to be peeled. So I'd grab some cookies. That was quick,
tasty, and provided me with the quick energy I was needing. Cookies are
still what I first want when I feel low on energy.

Kids do tend to like all kinds of food, but convenience is a big factor for
busy kids with things to do. Bags of chips, candy, cookies -- these are
almost always super quick and give quick energy, too. AND they are sweet or
salty - which most kids find tasty.

When I say my kids had no food limits, I mean it. If they asked me to buy a
giant bag of potato chips or Oreos I would do it. So those kinds of things
were available. But I was also right there offering plates of crackers and
cheese and sliced apples and steamed broccoli and zucchini and all kinds of
things. I made those other things available and convenient and I made them
as tasty as possible to appeal to the kids.

All three of my grown kids are really into good health and physical fitness
- they eat super healthy (way way better nutrition than what most Americans
eat) and they exercise regularly. They did NOT get that way by me limiting
their food options. Quite the opposite.

-pam


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pam Sorooshian

On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 9:52 AM, joanne.lopers <wilmalv@...>wrote:

> I read a long time ago that if a child is asking for sweets they might
> need some protein.


When I'm craving candy or cookies or cakes, I am wanting sugar. I have
learned, for myself, that eating a lot more fruit than what is usually
recommended is a sure way to stave off those sugar cravings. If I eat 5 or
6 services of fruit during the day, I will not have a big sugar craving
later that evening. If I don't eat fruit throughout the day, I will find
myself intensely drawn to eating a bunch of cake, cookies, candy or other
very sweet things like that.

-pam


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pam Sorooshian

On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 3:54 AM, Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...>wrote:

> When I was growing up in the 60's sugar wasn't treated as poison and,
> while there were a few fat kids, it wasn't anything like today.
>

I grew up in the 50's and sugar was valued as a really nice sweet addition
to our food life. It wasn't thought of as anything bad at all...it was
good.

But, I think most obesity these days is because of overall calorie
consumption being much higher than in the past. Rosie is taking a nutrition
class and I read in her textbook that calorie consumption is 800 calories
per day per person higher on average today than in 1958 and 500 calories
higher than in 1970 - that's almost a 25% increase in the last 40 years.

The increased calories from 1970 to today are from increased consumption of
refined grains (about 10 percent of the increase in calories is due to
this); added fats and oils (added to other foods) (9%); added sugars (4 to
7%); fruits and vegetables combined (1.5%); meat and nuts combined (1%);
and dairy including eggs (-1.5%).

However, diets have improved in other ways in the past 20 years...leaner
meats, more fruits and veggies, healthier oils.

In comparison to the 1950s, meat consumption is 57 pounds per person higher
now. Cheese consumption is about 4 times higher from 7.7 pounds per person
to 29.8 pounds per person. About half the cheese is in commercially
prepared fast food, restaurant, or convenience foods.

This is a lengthy chapter about the US dietary history, so I won't bore you
with more, but it is interesting that it says absolutely nothing about
people being obese due to eating more candy or other sweets. It is ALL
about processed foods and hidden (added) fats and sugars.

People don't actually more food (in terms of volume) today than they did
previously, either. But the food is more concentrated due to the added fats
and sugars, so they same volume of food has significantly more calories.

-pam


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

heather

--- In [email protected], "shellythouse@..." <shellythouse@...> wrote:
>
> http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v482/n7383/full/482027a.html
> What else do I need to keep in mind?
>
> Shelly
>

I have been reading this forum avidly for a couple years now and this is my first post. I feel compelled to post because I was very controlling of my son's jorel's (9) diet for the greater part of his life. This is where I give a huge Thank You to this list for helping me break out of that unhealthy mind frame.

I have been concerned/aware of the food I am putting in my body for about 15 years now. And when my son was born I felt it was my duty as a parent to help my son eat food that I considered healthy. I only provided him with food that met my standards (ie. organic, minimally processed,etc.). As time has passed (and with the help of this list among other things), I have come to the conclusion that Jorel is his own person and if I want to empower him to make his own informed decisions then I should stop dictating what he eats.

I still cringe inside when he wants to eat Top ramen loaded with MSG or when he eats a bowl full of candy corn, but I can clearly see the way he radiates when I say "yes" to those things and that is what really matters. I want him to make informed choices about what he is putting in his body and not just follow what I dictate. If and when he develops those concerns, it is his path to discover, I would rather be a guide and supporter than a dictator. (I even go so far as to eat these things with him!;D)

As far as sugar being poison, I agree with some of the other posts that just about anything in excess can be harmful. I think by being in an Unschooling frame of mind we are taking a step in promoting the idea that we can think for ourselves as human beings. We don't need any organization, be it government or otherwise to tell us what is good or bad for us. Because we are like snowflakes, we may be made of the same materials but we are each unique and have unique needs and wants. That should be respected and thanks to forums like this, we can find support in building that respect with our children. :)

Kathryn

The thing I LOVE about unschooling, is that it has allowed ME to appreciate that there is NO one truth; no 'good' or 'bad'. There is always so many variances that we can tend to dismiss - or not even see - when we focus on what we deem the one 'truth'; in this case, 'sugar is bad.' Being Open to further investigation allows a person to Learn More. When we get stuck in one mode of thinking it can be very easy to dismiss other information to the contrary. What would you say if there IS evidence to the contrary? That sugar actually IS good for you? That sugar actually is NOT the cause of diabetes? Papers/writings out there Do exist, referenced and all, that support this very theory.

http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/glycemia.shtml


I'm not implying that anyone need to change/alter their personal opinion on any one issue (in this case, sugar) but that the 'truth' is almost always subjective. All articles/papers (referenced or not) will only include certain variances; those variances subject to the perspective of the researcher alone.

Kathryn



--- In [email protected], "heather" <earthlovin@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> --- In [email protected], "shellythouse@" <shellythouse@> wrote:
> >
> > http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v482/n7383/full/482027a.html
> > What else do I need to keep in mind?
> >
> > Shelly
> >
>
> I have been reading this forum avidly for a couple years now and this is my first post. I feel compelled to post because I was very controlling of my son's jorel's (9) diet for the greater part of his life. This is where I give a huge Thank You to this list for helping me break out of that unhealthy mind frame.
>
> I have been concerned/aware of the food I am putting in my body for about 15 years now. And when my son was born I felt it was my duty as a parent to help my son eat food that I considered healthy. I only provided him with food that met my standards (ie. organic, minimally processed,etc.). As time has passed (and with the help of this list among other things), I have come to the conclusion that Jorel is his own person and if I want to empower him to make his own informed decisions then I should stop dictating what he eats.
>
> I still cringe inside when he wants to eat Top ramen loaded with MSG or when he eats a bowl full of candy corn, but I can clearly see the way he radiates when I say "yes" to those things and that is what really matters. I want him to make informed choices about what he is putting in his body and not just follow what I dictate. If and when he develops those concerns, it is his path to discover, I would rather be a guide and supporter than a dictator. (I even go so far as to eat these things with him!;D)
>
> As far as sugar being poison, I agree with some of the other posts that just about anything in excess can be harmful. I think by being in an Unschooling frame of mind we are taking a step in promoting the idea that we can think for ourselves as human beings. We don't need any organization, be it government or otherwise to tell us what is good or bad for us. Because we are like snowflakes, we may be made of the same materials but we are each unique and have unique needs and wants. That should be respected and thanks to forums like this, we can find support in building that respect with our children. :)
>

Sandra Dodd

-=-The thing I LOVE about unschooling, is that it has allowed ME to appreciate that there is NO one truth; no 'good' or 'bad'.-=-

Just because there is no one truth doesn't mean there are no things that are better or worse. There are MANY bad things. Some people like to choose sugar as their devil, and build a little religion around vanquishing that Satan.

Sexual abuse is bad, don't you think?
Spanking and screaming shaming words at a child is bad.
Lying is bad--WAY worse than being clear and honest (yeah, yeah, if the nazis are at your door and it's 1942 and you have Anne Frank upstairs... do what you have to do).

It's possible to let a child have cookies without going so far as to think there's so good or bad. Oreos are way better than those little almond windmills.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

chris ester

On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 12:52 PM, joanne.lopers <wilmalv@...>wrote:

> **
>
>
> >>>> We just try and eat most of our food as close to natural as possible
> but there is lots of room to enjoy the yummy side of life too. We have
> sugar in the house as well as honey and agave nectare to sweeten things
> with. It's not all or nothing for us. Everyone is healthy and fit so far.
>
> Joanne<<<<<
>
To chime in and agree, healthy doesn't have to be not yummy and yummy can
be at least a little healthy. All of the basic stuff that makes any food
is something we need for our health in some quantity. This includes sugar.
I think that many children (and adults too) have developed an unhealthy
relationship to sweets because of being tightly controlled and kept away
from sweets. This is often compounded by messages that a certain food is
'evil' and guilt about eating some food or another. People are encouraged
to eat for reasons other than hunger and that sets up all kinds of problems
with how and how much food is eaten. I have always tried to encourage my
children to follow their appetites. Sometimes they grave proteins,
sometimes fats, sometimes sweets. Sometimes they actually crave mixed wild
greens with lots of other raw veggies. The fact that neither is overweight
and both have pretty balanced diets tells me that they are in a good place
with relating to food.

I talk with them about nutrition and what research says. We have had some
really good conversations about how research can be biased. I try to avoid
any food that isn't nature built. So I don't generally buy artificial
sweeteners (sucralose, nutrasweet/aspartame, high fructose corn syrup),
artificial fats or chemically altered (hydrogenated) fats. This is
because of my own pet theory that our bodies are made to digest things that
existed before we started making fundamental changes to the chemical
structure of food. I tell my children about this decision and how I could
be wrong, but it feels right to not eat something built in a factory or
lab. They agree with me for the most part, even though sometimes we eat
stuff that isn't "born on a farm or in a field". Of course, the
hydrogenated fats and corn syrup are the hardest to avoid and we really
don't, except when we can.

My kids have had all of the above, but interestingly, they don't like the
stuff much. The artificial sweeteners give my daughter headaches and my
son just doesn't like the taste of fake sweetener. They prefer products
made with cane sugar instead of corn syrup. I don't notice a big
difference, but they tell me that they do, maybe because they have younger,
fresher taste buds....

We also try to avoid artificial colors because my son had reactions to
yellow 5 when he was younger. He says it still bothers him, but not
horribly so. We have had major (anaphylaxis) allergies in many members of
our family, so we are trying to avoid going there. Not that we never have
anything with food coloring, but we all taste the food coloring in really
brightly colored foods. I stopped eating most hard candies because of the
aftertaste.

Our grocery list is a family project every other week. I keep the list and
ask everyone what they want on it. My kids always go with me to shop and
they help decide what we buy, what meals we cook, what junk we buy. My 15
yo and 13 yo have a better grasp of how to make a grocery list (after
planning meals), shop for it as frugally as possible, and bring it all home
and make use of the groceries than my husband does. This is all because
they have always gone with me to the grocery store. I almost always say
'yes' to " Mom, can we get some______?" Sometimes I might say, "let's put
it in the cart and see if we can afford it in the budget after we have
gotten all the stuff that we need".

Sometimes there is a decision making process around what we want more. It
isn't a matter of deprivation or control, but financial realities can't be
ignored. We have a budget and a running shopping list. Some things have
been on the list for months (e.g. I want to get new towels, but we don't
need them) but they are on the 'nice to have' part of the list, not the 'we
need' side. My kids are part of the team that keeps track of the grocery
situation. Mostly because, as teens, they do most of the eating. :) So
they know when stuff is low or out before I do. We are lucky in that there
is very little that we can't get and we always have enough food. We have
some friends that are in very tight financial circumstances and when the
youngster comes over to play, he is always actually hungry and loves that
he can have fruit at our house. We always make sure to have snacks (both
healthy and not quite as healthy) to offer. He will often have meals with
us as well.

When my kids were younger, they would sometimes go through a phase of
craving some food that was really not very healthy. I dealt with this by
giving them as much of it as they wanted any time they wanted it. This
seems to short circuit the possibility that they develop some weird
relationship with a food. We would have a big bucket of double bubble gum
in the house all of the time. I learned to keep some sort of chips in the
house, even though I never bought them before (I am not a chip person). I
try to make baked sweets (due to budget and health-home made is usually
more healthful, less artificial food), it isn't really that much work to
make some cup cakes or a banana bread and we always have some sort of
chocolate in the house. I decided to do this before I had ever heard of
radical unschooling, because this is how my mother raised me and I saw that
children who were tightly controlled in what they ate or had the chance to
eat would gorge on the 'taboo' foods any chance they got.

My husband is out of the house most and hates shopping, so he is not really
involved with groceries, except to eat... My mother in law often relates
horror stories of my husband having tantrums at stores as a child, maybe
there is a connection with his hating shopping? He is also the only one
who will eat a lot of unhealthy food without even realizing that he has
done so, and my mother in law was a sweets hider/controller. She would
hide the candy and sweets and my husband and his brother made it a game to
find and eat them. Makes you think...
chris

>
> --- In [email protected], "Tori" <tandosmama@...> wrote:
>
> >
> > --- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@>
> wrote:
> > > If it's true, then the people who aren't treating sugar as poison --
> like radical unschoolers -- should show the greatest negative effects of
> that poison. If it's true radical unschooled kids should be *morbidly*
> obese and rife with diabetes. But they aren't.
> > >
> > > When I was growing up in the 60's sugar wasn't treated as poison and,
> while there were a few fat kids, it wasn't anything like today.
> > >
> > So true! There was a study (I looked, but can't find my link...) done
> recently about controlling kids' food choices. The outcome of the study
> showed that the more the access was controlled, the more desirable the food
> item became. Sadly those who designed the study concluded that parents
> still HAD TO control their kids' diets even if it resulted in the kids
> having skewed relationships with food. I'd add that the kids might develop
> skewed relationships with their parents as well.
> >
> > Our kids (4.5 yr old girl & boy twins) are free to choose what they eat.
> We garden organically, raise some of our own meat and rarely buy processed
> foods, but we also share the joys of chocolate, Pez, potato chips and
> plenty of other treats that most folks wouldn't label healthy. We almost
> always have ice cream, candy, cookies and chips at home. Obi and Linka are
> remarkable in their abilities to know what their own bodies need. And they
> request fresh fruit, veggies and meals as often as treats. When we're with
> friends many of the parents ask how we get our kids to eat so well. My
> answer is that we haven't messed up their ability to know what's right for
> them. Sadly most parents respond saying, oh that would never work for my
> kid.
> >
> > I have to add that reading here is part of what gave me the courage to
> try this at home. :) Thanks for being here!
> >
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

chris ester

On Wed, Feb 8, 2012 at 10:13 AM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:

> **
>
> >>>>It's possible to let a child have cookies without going so far as to
> think there's so good or bad. Oreos are way better than those little almond
> windmills.
>
> Sandra<<<
>
There are definitely good and bad things, but I really like the almond
windmills more than oreos.... Oreos aren't bad, but I feel they are not as
great a good as the almond windmills.... :) hee hee
Chris

>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

chris ester

On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 7:58 PM, shellythouse@... <
shellythouse@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v482/n7383/full/482027a.html
> ****I can't access this article but it is the basis for a number of news
> stories recently about sugar being poison and that it should be taxed and
> restricted like tobacco and alcohol are.
> We keep hearing about an obesity epidemic, about increasing prevalence of
> Type 2 diabetes in children. *****
>
They have a lot of theories as to why we have so much Type 2 Diabetes in
this country. One of those theories is that we don't get enough exercise
and are too stressed. It isn't a one size fits all solution kind of
problem.

> These are some of the thoughts (fears) in my mind as my daughter (3 years
> old) chooses to eat lots of sugar/candy which I make available to her.
> >>>>I guess what I'm really wondering is- am I doing anything differently
> from parents who have overweight/obese children? <<<<
>
Are you shaming and trying to induce guilt? I have seen many parents shame
their chubby child in front of a crowd about what and how much they eat.

Offer healthy food along with the sweets, fruit is sweet, carrots are
sweet. When my kids were little I kept containers of cut up fruit and
veggies in a fridge drawer that my kids could get into easily. I also had
a snack cabinet with dried fruit (sweet again), candy, chips, etc that they
could access. The only 'rule' was that we had to close the container so
that it wouldn't go stale, which meant I would check it regularly and close
it. Sometimes I would say, "we are having ______ for dinner in just a
few minutes, would you rather have that?" Sometimes they waited on the
snack and ate dinner, sometimes they ate the snack and dinner too,
sometimes they ate just the snack. Choices help children learn to choose
wisely.

> >>>>>I guess I'm saying it would be the parents' fault if their children
> are obese and develop health problems because of it. Aren't those parents
> offering what their kids want to eat too?<<<<
>
The reasons for obesity are complex and varied. Genetics, lifestyle (how
much a person moves, etc) and what they eat and a host of other factors
affect this. We don't know what other parents are doing, but I have seen
many parents withhold food, both 'junk' and 'good' food because it wasn't
the right time to eat or the parent told the child that they shouldn't be
hungry. I don't know how a person can know if another is hungry or not,
except to believe them when they say that they are hungry. It can become
such a major power/control issue--access to food and the timing of such
access.

> >>>>I 'm sure it will help to continue with the variety of foods on the
> monkey platter (I couldn't believe how excited she was the first time I
> made one for her, such an easy suggestion to implement and it made her so
> happy). What else do I need to keep in mind?<<<<<
>
I would suggest keeping a variety on hand at all times, mix it up as much
as possible. I used to cut up a bunch of veggies and fruits and store them
in the fridge for up to 3 days (if it lasted that long) and also keep lots
of dried fruit, granola bars, little candy bars, nuts, finger sized snacks
like chips or pretzels, cookies, crackers, etc.

I also tried to shop smart and buy things that were tasty, but also made
with healthy stuff or made it myself. I make a double or triple batch of
cookie dough and wrap it up into wax paper logs to cut and bake at will.
These will keep in the freezer a long time. There are recipes for crackers
too that you can do the same with. The other bonus is that home made is
usually much cheaper and I think it tastes better. Also, it is a really
fun activity with the kids.
Chris


>
> Shelly
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-This is because of my own pet theory that our bodies are made to digest things that
existed before we started making fundamental changes to the chemical
structure of food.-=-

Not counting cooking it.
Richard Wrangham, an anthropologist, writes about human digestion's evolution. A reviewer wrote: "The touchstone for what's paleo has always been, "Can you eat it raw?" since it was assumed that cooking came later in human evolution. Wrangham turns this touchstone on its head. If humans are human BECAUSE they cook, if there is no such thing as a human who didn't cook, then there's no reason to believe that we evolved eating only those foods that could be eaten raw."

http://www.amazon.com/review/R3MWLW7PWGXO6F

And as to villifying "sugar," sugar is chemically part of quite a range of natural foods. Foodies who love carbohydrates (or tolerate them) but hate sugar (or villifies it) should be embarrassed.

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

-=-There are definitely good and bad things, but I really like the almond
windmills more than oreos.... Oreos aren't bad, but I feel they are not as
great a good as the almond windmills.... :) hee hee
Chris-=-

Does the "hee hee" mean you're arguing just for the sake of arguing? Please don't do that on this list, and I'm as serious as a heart attack.
"Hee hee" and "LOL" are not going to get any nicer.

When I was a kid I had eczema. A doctor told my mother not to late me have any chocolate, nor to wear nylon. He should have told her to let me play in the bathtub as much as I wanted, but he didn't. In face, he told her not to let me use soap, but only bath oil. What a rotten bunch of advice, except for the wearing cotton instead of nylon. For years and years my sister and cousins ate chocolate cookies in front of me while I ate those lame windmills. My dad had a "pinwheel" cookie in his lunch every day. He could have kept them at work, and not left them where we had to see them. Sometimes the other girls could have one, but I never could.

Parents who intend to limit and deprive should not put that above a child's peace and comfort in his own home.

Sandra

delphini004

Here, if my sons want to have cookies, we buy them cookies. Last october, they had a big craving for cookies, so we bought a lot of cookies. They ate a pack of cookies each every day during more than a week. And after, they didn't want cookies no more.
One of them is studying nutrition and try everything on his own body. As he asked us for a lot of fruits, we bought a lot of fruits (somehow difficult, sometimes, as fruits are way expensive here than cookies). When we have more fruits in our days, as Pam says, we don't have cravings for cookies, coffee, chocolate or candies in late evening.

Edith

--- In [email protected], Pam Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
>
> On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 9:52 AM, joanne.lopers <wilmalv@...>wrote:
>
> > I read a long time ago that if a child is asking for sweets they might
> > need some protein.
>
>
> When I'm craving candy or cookies or cakes, I am wanting sugar. I have
> learned, for myself, that eating a lot more fruit than what is usually
> recommended is a sure way to stave off those sugar cravings. If I eat 5 or
> 6 services of fruit during the day, I will not have a big sugar craving
> later that evening. If I don't eat fruit throughout the day, I will find
> myself intensely drawn to eating a bunch of cake, cookies, candy or other
> very sweet things like that.
>
> -pam
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Aisha Alkhani

Hello to everyone,

I think that government stepping in to control sugar is really quite
frankly sad and scary. I can think of a lot worse things in our diets like
GMOs or pesticides. I could go on much further and I am sure the rest of
you would probably agree.

When we lived in the middle east sugar was a staple in our diets. It was
even supplemented by the government. Children usually went to school after
having a large bowl of dried bread wetted down in heavily sugared tea. On
the way to school children ate a bag of chips from the local market or
cookies. If you were rich you got a bottle of super sweet chocolate milk.
For lunch mom probably threw a cucumber in your bag and a sandwich made of
bread and a spice mix. You came home for your one large meal of the day
that consisted of rice bread veggies and if your rich some piece of meat on
the table and maybe something like hummus. Hardly anyone in Syria is fat.
And we ate more sugar, more carbs, more fried foods than any American
would ever dream of. Heck I dropped almost 100 pounds during the three
years I lived there. I came back to America, tried to diet to drop a few
more pounds, and amazingly I have merely put on more weight. I really
believe it is due to all the process garbage we have here, the hormones the
gmos etc. I cant put my finger on anything else that could be the cause.
It is really scary.

As for denying my children and family sugar here, that would just be cruel
in my humble opinion. Lots of things in this life are dangerous and might
in fact kill you. Lets go for a walk in the woods, take a breath of that
great city air, or go to the zoo, they all might very well kill you but it
doesnt keep us from doing it. And it certainly shouldnt! When my kids
crave sugar we start baking, and sometimes if there is no time for baking
we break out a jar of peanut butter! My kids love to snack on chocolate
chips too. I have five skinny twiggy boys and I am honest when I tell you
they eat TONS of sugar and a whole lot of other stuff deemed bad for you.
We sweeten their milk too. I really cant find anything wrong with it. :)
I think it would be far more detrimental to deny them, than to give them.
Childrens bodies really do know what they need, and I have always let my
children have a say in what is planned for any meal in the house.

That is just my two cents. But I am beginning to ramble again. Long story
short, long before the gov. concerns it self with sugar maybe it oughtta
look at companies like Monsanto or other Franken Food...

Aisha

On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 4:58 PM, shellythouse@... <
shellythouse@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v482/n7383/full/482027a.html
> I can't access this article but it is the basis for a number of news
> stories recently about sugar being poison and that it should be taxed and
> restricted like tobacco and alcohol are.
> We keep hearing about an obesity epidemic, about increasing prevalence of
> Type 2 diabetes in children.
> These are some of the thoughts (fears) in my mind as my daughter (3 years
> old) chooses to eat lots of sugar/candy which I make available to her.
> I guess what I'm really wondering is- am I doing anything differently from
> parents who have overweight/obese children? I guess I'm saying it would be
> the parents' fault if their children are obese and develop health problems
> because of it. Aren't those parents offering what their kids want to eat
> too?
> I 'm sure it will help to continue with the variety of foods on the monkey
> platter (I couldn't believe how excited she was the first time I made one
> for her, such an easy suggestion to implement and it made her so happy).
> What else do I need to keep in mind?
>
> Shelly
>
>
>



--
https://deals.mamapedia.com/seattle?ref_id=283100
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
There is no flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Learning can only happen when a child is interested. If he's not
interested it's like throwing marshmallows at his head and calling it
eating." - Anonymous


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

railyuh

> I guess what I'm really wondering is- am I doing anything differently from parents who have overweight/obese children?  I guess I'm saying it would be the parents' fault if their children are obese and develop health problems because of it.  Aren't those parents offering what their kids want to eat too?


Are the parents of obese children offering what the kids want? Maybe, maybe not. Being overweight or obese is far more complex than eating too much sugar or fat. I was always overweight as a kid, and as an adult I am obese. My brother and sister were always very thin as children, and now they are overweight too. We all ate basically the same diet. My parents didn't buy whatever we wanted, but they didn't place a lot of restrictions either. We could eat what was in the house and there tended to be a mix of fruit and vegetables along with soda and ice cream and chips, etc., sometimes more than others and usually dinner before dessert and that sort of thing. Interestingly, I was the kid in the family who loved vegetables and would request them, yet I was always the most overweight.

Now as a parent my kids (6 and 2) are at weights appropriate for their heights and age if you want to go by the charts at the pediatricians office. They are not thin children, but they are also young and my older child has thinned out a lot recently. He'was a super chubby baby, and it was delightful. He grew to be 20lbs by 6 months on nothing but breastmilk. My daughter on the other hand grew to be 20lbs at one year. My son didn't even really eat solid foods until after he was a year, but my daughter started at 6 months and she definitely eats way more sweets than my son ever did at her age (mostly because she is exposed to them more, my son was less interested in food in general). Yet, she has always been thinner than he was at the same age.

All of that to say that obesity is not based on diet alone. There are genetic factors, level of activity, body type, etc. Are your children overweight now? If not, why worry about a problem that may never develop? Also, it may be worth thinking about the idea that being skinny does not equal health either. I am obese but a few months ago I ran in my first 10k. I may be slow but by the end of the race I was passing other people who started out much faster than me. Am I healthier than them? I don't know really. But I know that I was able to run a 10k without stopping and that was pretty neat for me.

Maybe if I hadnt been shamed for my weight so much as a child I would have tried to do more things, like running, that I thought I couldn't do because of my weight. Maybe if someone had told me that fat people can run and that being skinny doesn't automatically mean you can run faster or longer than others, maybe I would have tried it when I was younger. Maybe if I hadn't been shamed for my weight I wouldn't have felt like I had to hide myself or my food or I might have chosen more activities that I wanted to do but didn't because society told me I wasn't good enough because I was overweight. My mom also struggled with her weight and would share diet books with me and try to get me to do it with her. None of them ever helped her keep the weight off and I was horribly ashamed and hurt by it because it told me she thought there was something wrong or unacceptable about me.

I think shame can play a huge factor in weight issues. I would be more concerned about the attitudes about weight I am showing my kids over worrying about their food choices and worrying that if they become obese it will be my fault. I know someone whose 3 year old makes remarks about McDonald's commercials, ewww, gross, why would anyone eat that, it is so bad! She was really proud of it. It made me cringe because I would be pretty embarrassed if my child said that in front of people who likely ate at McDonald's. Fine if she thinks fast food is horrible and bad for you and she won't let her kids eat it, but I think it is kind of messed up to so impress that on a 3 year old that she walks around shaming other people for their food choices. Of course I don't think this child is doing it in a mean spirited way, but that is what she has been taught.

Annie

Meredith

chris ester <chris.homeschool@...> wrote:
>> To chime in and agree, healthy doesn't have to be not yummy and yummy can
> be at least a little healthy.

Something which has become a staple in our home is George's home made chocolate chip cookies. They're a handy "go to" food for anyone in the house who needs a quick fix, and they actually have a good bit of protein in them, too. I keep an "emergency stash" of them at my workplace. One of Mo's friends gets excited about coming over because George will make a batch with this kid's help and they both enjoy that. Another of Mo's friends is in and out of chemo at the moment, and when he's feeling utterly wretched and can't keep much of anything down, he asks for George's cookies.

There's nothing really special about the cookies, in a way - he adds a little oatmeal and some nut meal instead of chopped nuts, but otherwise its a pretty normal cookie recipe. But at the same time, some days they're the most special food in the world.

---Meredith

chris ester

I didn't mean to touch a nerve nor argue for the sake of it. I have known
many people to follow the advice of a doctor and that advice is nothing
more than folk wisdom and superstitious learning. I love the look on a
doctor's face when I ask if they can tell me about the research that
supports their advice. The ones that respond with information and aren't
defensive are the ones that I return to.

I never understood the idea of limiting and deprivation as a means of
protecting. My son had definite reactions to yellow 5 that were really
scary starting at just about age 3. The first year or so, we just didn't
have yellow 5 around and I started reading. There are countries out there
that have banned tartrazine's use because there are good studies pointing
to it being toxic. There are lots of good substitutes for yellow things
and things with yellow in them. By the time he was 4.5, we had been
talking to him about yellow 5 and how he had reactions to it for a little
more than 18 months--nearly half his life. He started making decisions.
Once he had some cheese curls with yellow 5 and he could actually verbalize
that he felt 'buzzy' (I think he was about 5) and from then until he was
about 10, he would always either ask one of the adults or later check
himself for the yellow 5. When he was 10 at a fencing match, he grabbed
and 'chugged' a mellow yellow soda because he was really hot. He proceeded
to have a reaction and felt unsteady and 'weird' for the rest of the day.
From then on he was very diligent and I rarely checked for it myself,
unless I was reading the label in general. (I have always been a label
reader).

Now that he is much bigger and older, he still avoids yellow 5 most of the
time, but hasn't had a reaction that he has noticed in several years. We
just talked about this and he postulated that it may be that he is much
bigger and the amount of yellow 5 is the same. He still avoids it, but he
makes this decision on his own. If he were incapable of understanding the
cause and effect relationship, then I might step in, but he is a bright and
intelligent young man who makes his own decisions, even about allergens and
when and if to take medication for simple sinus issues.

I give information and advice sometimes, but I don't 'direct' him to do
anything, even when he has circles under his eyes because of his sinuses.
I will ask him if he realizes that the circles are there because he doesn't
notice. Just as I asked my daughter what she had been using to clean her
face because she looked like she had hives and we all have sensitive skin.
Often, for teens, hives can be confused with mild acne, but her complexion
had changed suddenly and I noticed first and brought it to her attention.

My daughter asked for me to get her some other facial cleanser, I did and
her hives cleared.

In some ways, I think that it is easier to raise children with dignity and
respect and the freedom to make choices. They get lots of practice making
decisions as they are growing and learning and by the time they are big
enough to get into situations that could truly be dangerous, they actually
come to me for advice or make good decisions and then share with me. Both
of my kids are confident decision makers at the ripe old ages of 13 and 15,
because they have been making decisions for a long time now. Plus, now
they actually make my life as the householder easier because they
participate in the running of the household. We are a team of equals that
each have our roles in keeping the house together and the pantry stocked
and getting to all of the various appointments that they have for all of
the activities they enjoy.
Chris

On Wed, Feb 8, 2012 at 1:00 PM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> -=-There are definitely good and bad things, but I really like the almond
>
> windmills more than oreos.... Oreos aren't bad, but I feel they are not as
> great a good as the almond windmills.... :) hee hee
> Chris-=-
>
> Does the "hee hee" mean you're arguing just for the sake of arguing?
> Please don't do that on this list, and I'm as serious as a heart attack.
> "Hee hee" and "LOL" are not going to get any nicer.
>
> When I was a kid I had eczema. A doctor told my mother not to late me have
> any chocolate, nor to wear nylon. He should have told her to let me play in
> the bathtub as much as I wanted, but he didn't. In face, he told her not to
> let me use soap, but only bath oil. What a rotten bunch of advice, except
> for the wearing cotton instead of nylon. For years and years my sister and
> cousins ate chocolate cookies in front of me while I ate those lame
> windmills. My dad had a "pinwheel" cookie in his lunch every day. He could
> have kept them at work, and not left them where we had to see them.
> Sometimes the other girls could have one, but I never could.
>
> Parents who intend to limit and deprive should not put that above a
> child's peace and comfort in his own home.
>
> Sandra
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

chris ester

On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 12:11 AM, Aisha Alkhani <alwaysaisha@...>wrote:

> **
>
>
> Hello to everyone,
>
>
> >>>Childrens bodies really do know what they need, and I have always let my
> children have a say in what is planned for any meal in the house.<<<<<
>
> I always felt this way too. When my son was very young, a study came out
that pointed to the fact that kids will make good choices consistently and
eat nutritiously over the space of about 2 weeks when given freedom of
choices and good modeling. If they see parents eating healthfully most of
the time, they eat well too. AND several small studies have shown that
kids who are allowed access to 'junk food' (no food is actually junk,
unless it is nothing but chemicals--a lot of diet food) do not binge when
offered sweets. Kids whose diet choices are tightly controlled will
usually gorge when given a chance to have sweets.

I tried to find these studies, but I can't remember enough of the key word
details to find them with google.

I love when science supports unschooling. :)
Chris


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-In some ways, I think that it is easier to raise children with dignity and
respect and the freedom to make choices. -=-

And in some ways not?

-=- We are a team of equals that
each have our roles in keeping the house together and the pantry stocked
and getting to all of the various appointments that they have for all of
the activities they enjoy.-=-

You're not really equals. It's fine to operate that way, but that condition was set by you (the parent) because you have the responsibility and chose to share the rights. When it comes to a decision that involves legality, you're no longer equals.

I think families can go too far in telling kids they're equals.

Sandra

chris ester

On Fri, Feb 10, 2012 at 12:47 AM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> -=-In some ways, I think that it is easier to raise children with dignity
> and
> respect and the freedom to make choices. -=-
>
> >>>And in some ways not?<<<<
>
Yes, because there is no room for knee jerk reactions and parenting the way
you have been taught or how your parents or grandparents or even friends
have done it. Heck, there are parenting manuals out there that tout
parenting maxims that run entirely counter to radical unschooling. It
takes a lot of nerve some days to step back when stepping in is the
'conventional wisdom'. I really like to call what we do 'mindful
parenting', because we are always trying to pay attention to what we do as
parents and pay attention to the relationship and the strewing and the
presentation of circumstances and information in a way that is giving them
the maximum amount of freedom, but without abdicating responsibility as a
parent.

>
> -=- We are a team of equals that
> each have our roles in keeping the house together and the pantry stocked
> and getting to all of the various appointments that they have for all of
> the activities they enjoy.-=-
>
> >>>>You're not really equals. It's fine to operate that way, but that
> condition was set by you (the parent) because you have the responsibility
> and chose to share the rights. When it comes to a decision that involves
> legality, you're no longer equals.<<<<
>
I agree, I should have been more clear. When I say equals, I was referring
more to the value of each person in the family. It is discussed frequently
that responsibility and liability go hand in hand and that society has
folkways and laws to enforce certain standards that are not a bad idea.
Adults are the people who have final 'veto' power and are the tie breakers
and have the power to act of behalf on the family without discussion. This
is because adults have the legal responsibility/liability.

>
> >>>I think families can go too far in telling kids they're equals.
>
> Sandra<<<<
>
I agree with you on that. We don't so much TELL them that they are equals
as much as respect their humanity and model that respect. My son one time
said something like, sometimes I wish you just did the shopping and just
knew what we needed--or told us what we needed. We laughed.
Chris

>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

Chris Ester wrote:
-=-In some ways, I think that it is easier to raise children with dignity and
respect and the freedom to make choices. They get lots of practice making
decisions as they are growing and learning and by the time they are big
enough to get into situations that could truly be dangerous, they actually
come to me for advice or make good decisions and then share with me. Both
of my kids are confident decision makers at the ripe old ages of 13 and 15,
because they have been making decisions for a long time now. -=-

This is very true of my kids, too.
Because I helped them reason through decisionmaking when they were little, they learned to think through those steps, and to gather up factors and considerations. Sometimes the answer is yes because there's nothing else going on for the next day or two. Sometimes the answer is no, because we're having company in an hour, or no because you have a game/performance/rehearsal/work. As they got older, I saw them reminding each other, and eventually me and their dad, "But you're going to Ben's right?" or "Are you supposed to take food there?" or whatever.

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

Quotes until the ==========
> -=-In some ways, I think that it is easier to raise children with dignity
> and
> respect and the freedom to make choices. -=-
>
>>>> And in some ways not?<<<<
>
Yes, because there is no room for knee jerk reactions and parenting the way
you have been taught or how your parents or grandparents or even friends
have done it. Heck, there are parenting manuals out there that tout
parenting maxims that run entirely counter to radical unschooling. It
takes a lot of nerve some days to step back when stepping in is the
'conventional wisdom'. I really like to call what we do 'mindful
parenting', because we are always trying to pay attention to what we do as
parents and pay attention to the relationship and the strewing and the
presentation of circumstances and information in a way that is giving them
the maximum amount of freedom, but without abdicating responsibility as a
parent.

================================

Okay, I get that.

I thought you were saying that in the long run it was easier to have raised children with dignity **in some ways**
but
I think now you meant that even though it seems easier to just tell them what to do and it can seem harder to bother to be mindful.

No wonder I was confused. That's all confusing!! :-)

Thanks for clarifying.

Sandra