Messyfish

I have been traveling through Vietnam with my 3 year old boy for 7 days now. We have 3 month tourist visas, and am planning on being here for 3 months. We usually live on a 100acre farm in a tiny town with one shop in Australia with a cool climate.
He has been doing things since we got to Vietnam that are dangerous. Here are some examples:
In Saigon its very busy with motor bikes everywhere, I'll say "here comes a motor bike, we need to get out of the way". He will say NO! And stand in the way till the motor bike stops and he has Vietnamese women yelling at him.

The ground is very dirty, I'll tell him that it is, but he will still walk with his hands along the ground.

I've told him we can't drink the water from the tap, but I'll turn my head for a second and he is drinking the shower water a moment after I've told him.

We are at the beach, he can't swim and I've told him not to go too deep but he keeps going into the deep water. I need to shadow him and keep pulling him out. But I can barely keep up with him and am exhausted with the all the running he does.

When I cross the road I carry him and have to really concentrate. Cars and motobikes don't stop here, we just have to walk slowly and they anticipate our pace and drive around pedestrians (except the other day when one hit me, I have two massive bruises and broken skin, and he was unharmed because I was holding him higher than the bike). When I hold him to cross and am looking and concentrating he covers my eyes with his hands or pushes my chin up or yells at me to look at something that I can't look at because I need to look the other way. It's hectic and dangerous. I even had to hold his arms down because he was so determined to stick them in my face, so then he started biting my chest.

Another thing he does is a "sudden bolt". We will be walking along the street and he will just suddenly run about 10 meters. Often it's across a driveway, or alley where a motor bike may be turning into, but he has no idea about that because he is just running with his head down. I try to get him to hold my had for this reason when we walk, but he always wants to let go. I have lost trust that he will walk beside me, because he only does for a bit, until something grabs his attention. I've explained about how dangerous it is, how it really hurts when a motor bike hits you etc but he just keeps doing it.

I am constantly telling him over and over not to do certain things and he keeps doing them over and over. I am getting pissed off with him, and am very concerned about his safety.
I don't understand why he is doing this stuff? And the way I am responding is not working. I need suggestions please about how to work with him in this environment. I am stuck in a rut where I think it's a power game for him,( but a serious safety issue for me)? But I am not even sure about that? I am confused and angry.

I also feel it could be because he is not happy. I left Saigon and skipped a few other destinations I wanted to go to, and came to a place that is less busy, cooler and has a beach because I thought he would enjoy it more. He is definitely happier here, but he is still doing things I ask him not too, and I am so frustrated that I can't find a way to shift things.
Kind regards
Anna


Sent from my iPod via my husband (who is in Australia still) because Vietnam has a ban on yahoo groups.

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

I think you are expecting too much of a 3 year old. He is 3 years old. I think this was too big of a change for him and maybe too busy of 
a pace for him.  Some kids do not travel well. Some do not like changes and like to be home.|

--=-=-=-


<<<"I'll say "here comes a motor bike, we need to get out of the way". He will say NO! And stand in the way till the motor bike stops and he has Vietnamese women yelling at him. ">>>>>

Get a sling, a carrier. carry him. Telling him is not working.  Just carry him or get a stroller.
-=-=-=-=-=-

>>>>"The ground is very dirty, I'll tell him that it is, but he will still walk with his hands along the ground. ">>>>

Again get a carrier and carry him and find places , maybe the beach or a park, where he can run without worrying about dirt or cars or any dangers

-=-=-=-=-=-=

<<<"I've told him we can't drink the water from the tap, but I'll turn my head for a second and he is drinking the shower water a moment after I've told him. ">>>>>

All kids drink from the shower. There is no way to keep the water from their mouths really. Unless you boil some water and give him a bath with that water  there is no way your are going to keep it from touching his mouth.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

<<<<"We are at the beach, he can't swim and I've told him not to go too deep but he keeps going into the deep water. I need to shadow him and keep pulling him out. But I can barely keep up with him and am exhausted with the all the running he does. ">>>>>>>

I was raised at the beach. When kids are 3 years old they need someone with them in the water at all times. You do need to shadow him all the time and you do need to keep him safe. Do you really think that a 3 year old can keep himself safe in the ocean?
Again too much expectation.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

<<<<"When I cross the road I carry him and have to really concentrate. Cars and motobikes don't stop here, we just have to walk slowly and they anticipate our pace and drive around pedestrians (except the other day when one hit me, I have two massive bruises and broken skin, and he was unharmed because I was holding him higher than the bike). When I hold him to cross and am looking and concentrating he covers my eyes with his hands or pushes my chin up or yells at me to look at something that I can't look at because I need to look the other way. It's hectic and dangerous. I even had to hold his arms down because he was so determined to stick them in my face, so then he started biting my chest. ">>>>>>

Maybe the carrier will help. Maybe you will need to hold his hand down. It is not his fault he does not understand danger and big busy cities. He is three and has never been in places like that before. You decided to take this trip . It is up to you to navigate the streets safely and it is your responsibility to keep your 3 year old safe.

-=-=-=-=-=-=--------=

<<<"I have lost trust that he will walk beside me, because he only does for a bit, until something grabs his attention. I've explained about how dangerous it is, how it really hurts when a motor bike hits you etc but he just keeps doing it. ">>>>


He is 3. He is in a new and interesting, different place. He sees things and he gets excited. Some kids don not run and some do. Find ways to keep him safe. Being upset at him is not going to help keep him safe.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

<<<<<<"I am constantly telling him over and over not to do certain things and he keeps doing them over and over. I am getting pissed off with him, and am very concerned about his safety. ">>>>>>


Maybe you are talking too much! Say "Car" and pick him up. Don't go on and on about the cars and motocycles  or.....
Maybe he is tuning you out but then again he is only three~!!

=

 
Alex Polikowsky
 
 
 


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sheeboo2

Noor has done a lot of traveling in her 8 years and I wholeheartedly second everything Alex said, plus, if you aren't willing to just hang out at in a nice quiet beach town - where he absolutely needs you to be in the water with him in any case, going home and trying the trip in another year or three might be the best choice.

In all the traveling we've done with Noor, one trip was cut short. We were supposed to have been gone for two months and we left after two weeks. It just wasn't the right time, or the right place, and no matter what I would have done, it wouldn't have been pleasant, safe or emotionally healthy to stay as long as we had planned.

Brie

Schuyler

>>I have been traveling through Vietnam with my 3 year old boy for 7 days
now. We have 3 month tourist visas, and am planning on being here for 3 months. We usually live on a 100acre farm in a tiny town with one shop
in Australia with a cool climate.<<

He's 3, my guess is that he isn't part of the we. It's your we and not his we that is deciding how long you are going to be there. 

>>In Saigon its very busy with motor bikes everywhere, I'll say "here
comes a motor bike, we need to get out of the way". He will say NO! And
stand in the way till the motor bike stops and he has Vietnamese women
yelling at him.<<

Pick him up and move him forward. As Alex suggested, carry him more, get a carrier, a sling a backpack, anything and carry him when you are in more urban areas. 

I could go through all of your comments and say the same thing. He's 3. He's too young to be able to really understand what Vietnam requires of him. Kim Hill, an anthropologist who works in Paraguay mostly, told my husband when we took our infant son to Belize to do fieldwork, that you take babies and older than 5 year olds with you, but not toddlers. Toddlers just can't focus long enough. They can't parse what you are saying well enough to be put into such a different environment. They can't assess the risks well enough.  Katherine Homewood, who worked with the Masai, didn't take her young children. Jane Goodall's son had to live in a cage, and a safe house to keep him from the risks of living in the forests of Tanzania.


If you can't figure out how to make your trip shorter, make it safer and less difficult for your son to adapt to. Make it easier for you to keep him safe in such an intense and different environment. Don't expect him to understand what you are saying. How could water not be safe? We boiled water for Simon's bath and let it cool when we were in Belize. He didn't have full baths anyhow. Just a bit of water in a baby tub that he could stomp in and we'd splash it up around him. Use a warm wash cloth and give him what my dad calls a spit bath, just clean what's dirty and don't fully immerse him. Look for more than one way to achieve your goals. And have fewer goals. You aren't going to be able to do intensive exploration of Vietnam with a 3 year old. It's going to be a while until you are able to achieve that kind of travel. You are moving with someone else's very different abilities to take into account. Take them into account and don't get angry because he
isn't able to be bigger than the 3 year old that he is.


Schuyler

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Joyce Fetteroll

On Feb 5, 2012, at 10:06 PM, Messyfish wrote:

> He has been doing things since we got to Vietnam that are dangerous.

The aware parenting discussed with unschooling isn't a conflict-free way to control a child. It's a completely different way to react to a child's actions.

To change what's happening change yourself. Change how you respond. Change how you view what's happening. Change where you take your child. Change how you interact with your child. Change what he has access to.

Don't take him to the beach. Under ideal circumstances a beach can be loads of fun for most 3 yos. But he's not going to miss it if you don't go. When he's 20 he's not going to look back on this time and wish he could have spent more time at the beach ;-) He might not even remember the trip. So rather than looking for unique-to-Vietnam or "fun" experiences for him, try to make his moments happier.

Even if he's having fun, the trip is stressful for him. And being in situations where you have to say no, no, no, is adding to the stress. His contrary behavior (contrary to sense, contrary to what you're telling him to do) is a reaction to the stress.

If you're there sightseeing, it means your focus is outward and not on him. If you're looking for things for him to do, your focus is outward and not on him. Of course you have to look and think to find things ;-) But you don't get off the hook as soon as you find something. What are the kinds of things he loves? Do more of that and focus on him and his needs while you're going, while you're there. If what he loves most is running and touching, find places he can run and touch where you won't have to say no. If that's not possible, it might be less stressful to go home.

Some kids travel very well. Some kids love looking at things. Some kids aren't as affected by environment. They don't need the comfort of the familiar, just the comfort of mom. My daughter Kat was very much that way and did great on trips. But unschooling/aware parenting doesn't change a child's nature. If his needs and loves aren't matched for where you are, it will be less stressful and more relationship building to change where you are.

Joyce

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Catherine Forest

So you are traveling alone with him, right? This can quickly become very hard for the both of you if you have big expectations... I know, I know, you want to travel and explore, see different places, etc. But this is your needs. Your 3 yo needs sameness and some routine to his days to feel safe and happy.

We are big travelers and have not traveled extensively with our girls until recently because it would just not have been fun for any of us. We are now in Costa Rica for 5 months and my girls are 7 1/2 (twins) and 6 and still, there is no way I could move around Costa Rica as much as you seemed to have planned to move around Vietnam with your son. The only way for this trip to be fun for all of us is to rent a house in a nice little community for the 5 months we are here and do som day trips (and a few 4-days or weekly trips), and even after 5 days away from here, in hotels, eating out, they are a mess and it is not fun anymore for any of us...

So my first recommendation when traveling is to find a good place where you want to be as soon as possible when you arrive and rent long term. Get settled down there, get to know your community, the market, etc. This repetition, same faces, same places is very soothing for young children, they can recreate a home away from home. Build him a little fort in the new place where he put his things and have his little safe heaven, rebuild it everywhere you go.

As I said, my girls are much older than yours and I am ALWAYS with them in the sea.

What I hear is that this trip is not as fun as you expected it and that you feel like you are already making compromises and still not seing much improvement... I feel like as others have said, you will need to do even more (like long-term rental in my opinion, instead of moving around), more routine, more carrying (and I imagine it must be hard to carry a 3 yo when it is super warm outside...). And try to find a sitter if you feel like you need a break, especially on the beach if you feel like you don’t want to always want to watch him (get an older child that you can trust play with him and stay with him at all times so you can read and relax for an hour or so).

You might want to read Marilia’s blog: http://www.trippingmom.com/), she has been traveling with her daughter since she is 2 (she is now 4) and shares her struggles and tips.

Enjoy your trip!

Catherine

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aldq75

I noticed this part:


Sent from my iPod via my husband (***who is in Australia still***) because Vietnam has a ban on yahoo groups.


If your son used to being with both parents and suddenly one is not there, that's a big adjustment on top of being away from home in a very different environment. That is a lot to expect from a three-year-old.

I agree with what others have said about carrying him. Instead of trying to sight-see right away, spend a few days hanging out with him playing, reading, drawing and doing whatever outdoor things you can safely do (running and climbing in a park). Try to do some of the same activities you do at home. After he's settled in, maybe you can take a few hours here and there to see some of the sights.


Andrea Q

christinebgilbert

I've been traveling with my 2 year old son since he was 4 months old and we've done about six months in SE Asia, so I've been through some of these things.


--- In [email protected], "Messyfish" <messy_fish@...> wrote:

** In Saigon its very busy with motor bikes everywhere, I'll say "here comes a motor bike, we need to get out of the way". He will say NO! And stand in the way till the motor bike stops and he has Vietnamese women yelling at him. **

This is really dangerous. I wouldn't let that situation happen. I would pick up my child if a bike was coming. I don't expect my child to understand or necessarily like it, but in that moment I'd intervene to keep him safe.

If the problem is that this is always happening, then I'd look at ways to not have him walking on the street, rather than on ways to have him understand how to avoid traffic.


** The ground is very dirty, I'll tell him that it is, but he will still walk with his hands along the ground. **

It's good for his immune system. Is it dirt? Or fish guts at the market? Or cow poop? There's lots of kinds of dirt. Some places in the world are dirtier than others. My son crawled around at 1 year old in India and I could not keep him clean. He was fine.

I wouldn't even say anything about the dirt. I would just clean him up when needed (wet wipes!), or move him to a different location if it was really gross, or find somewhere else to play.

** I've told him we can't drink the water from the tap, but I'll turn my head for a second and he is drinking the shower water a moment after I've told him. **

He's probably too little to resist the water. Don't leave him in the shower water at all, not even for a second. When we were in places with truly bad water, we'd bathe our son in a bucket as quickly as possible without stressing him out and watch him to make sure he wasn't drinking it, then GET HIM OUT OF THERE!

We also would heat bottled water for a short bath with a sponge.

** We are at the beach, he can't swim and I've told him not to go too deep but he keeps going into the deep water. I need to shadow him and keep pulling him out. But I can barely keep up with him and am exhausted with the all the running he does. **

You keep telling him things and then presenting him with really tempting situations. I don't think he's old enough to be following your instructions, so maybe you should adjust that expectation.

Maybe you can hire a mother's helper? It's really cheap in Vietnam and they can chase him up and down the beach with you.

** When I cross the road I carry him and have to really concentrate. Cars and motobikes don't stop here, we just have to walk slowly and they anticipate our pace and drive around pedestrians (except the other day when one hit me, I have two massive bruises and broken skin, and he was unharmed because I was holding him higher than the bike). When I hold him to cross and am looking and concentrating he covers my eyes with his hands or pushes my chin up or yells at me to look at something that I can't look at because I need to look the other way. It's hectic and dangerous. I even had to hold his arms down because he was so determined to stick them in my face, so then he started biting my chest. **

You are really stressed out, maybe? If he's biting your chest he's telling you that he doesn't like the way you're acting. You will get used to the traffic. Relax. Take it slow. Give yourself more time to get where you're going. When he covers your eyes, maybe he wants your attention. Can you talk to him, stop what you're doing and find out what he wants?

** Another thing he does is a "sudden bolt". We will be walking along the street and he will just suddenly run about 10 meters. Often it's across a driveway, or alley where a motor bike may be turning into, but he has no idea about that because he is just running with his head down. I try to get him to hold my had for this reason when we walk, but he always wants to let go. I have lost trust that he will walk beside me, because he only does for a bit, until something grabs his attention. I've explained about how dangerous it is, how it really hurts when a motor bike hits you etc but he just keeps doing it. **


Sorry, I had to laugh at this! My son does this too! I try to find places to hang out where he can't run into dangerous SE Asia traffic, like cafes or restaurants with walled gardens or playgrounds with fences. I don't know anyway to avoid this, it's fun to run when you're little!

** I am constantly telling him over and over not to do certain things and he keeps doing them over and over. I am getting pissed off with him, and am very concerned about his safety.**

The hard thing about traveling with a small kid is that you don't have any physical boundaries to keep them safe. You're in the street and they run off, you go to the beach and they run into the water. It is truly exhausting. You can't let down your guard at all because you need to keep them safe. I think over time you'll start to find the safe ways to do your routine and it won't be so hard.

When you go to the beach do you bring toys? Snacks? Bottled water? When you walk somewhere can you use a stroller (pram)? Do you have safe places to visit, like a favorite restaurant, cafe, etc that you can duck into if the walk home is not going well? Are there some streets that are safer around where you live? Can you change locations to a quieter area? Are there other expat families around that you can hang out with?

** I don't understand why he is doing this stuff? And the way I am responding is not working. I need suggestions please about how to work with him in this environment. I am stuck in a rut where I think it's a power game for him,( but a serious safety issue for me)? But I am not even sure about that? I am confused and angry. **

He's curious, little and excited about the new environment. You brought him here to show him new stuff, and Voila! he wants to touch, look at and probably lick everything. You will be much happier and more effective if you accept his behavior as perfectly natural (it is, I have met many traveling families, this is what you can expect) and dedicate yourself to finding ways not to change him but to make his environment more safe or help him navigate it safely. It's going to involve a lot of your time, attention and patience.

** I also feel it could be because he is not happy. I left Saigon and skipped a few other destinations I wanted to go to, and came to a place that is less busy, cooler and has a beach because I thought he would enjoy it more. He is definitely happier here, but he is still doing things I ask him not too, and I am so frustrated that I can't find a way to shift things. **

Good luck!