What would you do?
[email protected]
>What is the "AlwaysLearning" situation here? What would you tell your10
>year-old son? What kind of future interaction which you have with thisWell, this is pretty ugly.
>person? Does it affect your relationship to the club? ? ?
If you don't feel like throwing up every time you look at this guy, you
might still enjoy your club.
Is the club exclusive?
Do any of the dues you pay to the club go in this guys pocket? That's an
AlwaysLearning issue, and more.
It's not something most of us like to think about but even our nice
neighbors, even our kid's doctor could have an "interest" like this.
If you found another club, unless you're willing to do a background check
on every member, you'd run the same risk of mixing with folks who think
like this. There's just no way to know, if they're not beating you over
the head with it.
Can you separate the man from the job? You might not know until you've
been to the club a few more times, or until you stop puking.
It's such a shock to find out something like this about a person you
respect. I'm sorry.
My son will be ten soon and I'd talk to him about it. I'd tell him how I
found out and how it made me feel and that I wasn't sure what to do.
So, that didn't help at all.
Deb L
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/2/02 2:06:08 AM, PSoroosh@... writes:
<< Even if you don't take this opportunity to talk about this kind of stuff,
you'll have other opportunities, unfortunately. Protecting innocence can
become protecting ignorance - that seems like one big aspect of what you were
asking about - when does protecting our children's innocence go so far as to
be keeping them ignorant. >>
We could tell every child what horrible dangers are lurking in the world.
Some parents seem to revel in doing that, and then their childhoods are
ruined.
How much detail do you give a six year old about what could happen to them if
they get lured into a car by a stranger?
Racism won't be created nor destroyed by Matthew's awareness. Matthew's
youth will be made uglier, though.
IF, Dan, you really decide to tell him, I have an idea. Maybe it's too much
joy-destruction, or maybe it's REALLY instructive. Tell him ONE of the guys
at the group has a web link to a racist organization. Don't tell him which
one, and see if he can tell by action or word, over the next several meetings.
Maybe that's a good exercise for all of us.
Some of your friends and associates believe things you don't. Will you
reduce your circle of contacts to just those who believe as you do?
How many of your friends might have dumped you for some of your parenting
practices if they weren't being more open minded?
Many religions teach negative things about other groups of people. Many
(most) Christians not only believe most people on the planet are going to
hell, they have to HOPE so, or else they have deprived themselves of normal
lives based on their own interests and desires for no good reason.
Personally, I would rather my neighbor just didn't want Kirby to marry his
daughter than that my neighbor wanted Kirby to burn in eternal torment.
Kirby might eventually change his mind about the former.
Sandra
<< Even if you don't take this opportunity to talk about this kind of stuff,
you'll have other opportunities, unfortunately. Protecting innocence can
become protecting ignorance - that seems like one big aspect of what you were
asking about - when does protecting our children's innocence go so far as to
be keeping them ignorant. >>
We could tell every child what horrible dangers are lurking in the world.
Some parents seem to revel in doing that, and then their childhoods are
ruined.
How much detail do you give a six year old about what could happen to them if
they get lured into a car by a stranger?
Racism won't be created nor destroyed by Matthew's awareness. Matthew's
youth will be made uglier, though.
IF, Dan, you really decide to tell him, I have an idea. Maybe it's too much
joy-destruction, or maybe it's REALLY instructive. Tell him ONE of the guys
at the group has a web link to a racist organization. Don't tell him which
one, and see if he can tell by action or word, over the next several meetings.
Maybe that's a good exercise for all of us.
Some of your friends and associates believe things you don't. Will you
reduce your circle of contacts to just those who believe as you do?
How many of your friends might have dumped you for some of your parenting
practices if they weren't being more open minded?
Many religions teach negative things about other groups of people. Many
(most) Christians not only believe most people on the planet are going to
hell, they have to HOPE so, or else they have deprived themselves of normal
lives based on their own interests and desires for no good reason.
Personally, I would rather my neighbor just didn't want Kirby to marry his
daughter than that my neighbor wanted Kirby to burn in eternal torment.
Kirby might eventually change his mind about the former.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/2/02 9:43:17 AM, dvilter@... writes:
<< This is central to my struggle. Keep in mind that I have been stewing
about
this for two years. >>
I thought you just found out lately!
Maybe you could e-mail him from another address, one he won't recognize, and
ask him about the thing. Or tell us the site, and we'll ALL e-mail him! <g>
(not really)
Sandra
<< This is central to my struggle. Keep in mind that I have been stewing
about
this for two years. >>
I thought you just found out lately!
Maybe you could e-mail him from another address, one he won't recognize, and
ask him about the thing. Or tell us the site, and we'll ALL e-mail him! <g>
(not really)
Sandra
[email protected]
On Thu, 02 May 2002 08:41:00 -0700 Dan Vilter <dvilter@...> writes:
I had never really considered this whole angle. I guess for me,
sheltering my kid from a lot of the evil in life has never been an
option, it just wasn't possible... she's just been there, and we talked a
lot about things, but she knew. I was a single mom getting aid from the
state when she was born, and stayed that way until she was almost 5,
while I went to college. We paid for food with funky colored "money" and
got shit from the other people in line for buying things that were "too
expensive" or "too junky", we went to too many appointments in big
crowded places where you get there at 6:30 to get a good place in line,
even though the door doesn't open until 7, and there's always a security
guard at the door and kids running around and being hit, and someonething
inevitably goes wrong, if not for us than for someone else, who then
screams and swears until she is escorted out by said security guard. And
WIC was another appointment, and then there's the Section 8 annual
inspection... and we visited her father in the jails and prisons until
she was almost 4, which involved waiting, and being searched, and going
through the metal detector, and waiting some more, and riding the bus
(she still remembers the bus at Perryville)...We lived right down the
street from the welfare office when she was born, and people would come
by and throw food to our dog and we'd go out and ask them not to because
it made her sick, but gently... it was all there, and we saw a lot of
people and they all had stories...
And there's the whole issue of letting her visit with her dad
unsupervised, which I started doing when she was 5 or so, because it
seemed to solve more problems than it created... but he does have that
"checkered past", she needed to know that if he drinks or smokes pot,
call me, and I'll come get her, and if he hits her, call me, and tell
me... none of that has ever happened with the two of them (well, except I
suspect he's smoked), but it all happened with him and me. Now her dad
is homeless, living in his car, and she knows that, although for the
first few weeks she didn't. It sucks, she's worried about him, she
offered her bedroom floor to him, but he wouldn't take it... so she got
him to take a wool blanket and a cake she baked, and felt better, and he
often sleeps at the highway rest stop nearest to our house, so we see him
driving home... but it makes you think differently about "the homeless"
when that means Dad...
I'm not sure if there's a point here. We live differently than a lot of
people, I guess... it never would occur to me not to tell my kid if
someone we knew had that link on his webpage. It would never occur to me
to hide that. Maybe that comes from having been hated as the lazy
drain-on-the-system welfare mom with the bastard kid. I also spent 6
years in the psych hospital gulag before Cacie was born, being hated.
Maybe being hated makes you respond differently to hatred, in any form.
And I don't know if this is better or worse, maybe she would be a happier
person if I'd been married and middle-class and she didn't know about all
this stuff as a little kid. I haven't spent any time thinking about it,
really. I imagine she'd be a different person.
Dar
> But now the ugly concept hits my homeabout
> (or at least my park day group) and I begin to lose rational thought
> her kids, Denny's, and being hungry while on the road. My reaction isto
> protect my son from this kind of confusion and pain.I'm jealous that you get to see Joylyn every week... :-)
>
> Maybe it's only *my* problem?
>
> I'll bet Joylyn feels differently.
I had never really considered this whole angle. I guess for me,
sheltering my kid from a lot of the evil in life has never been an
option, it just wasn't possible... she's just been there, and we talked a
lot about things, but she knew. I was a single mom getting aid from the
state when she was born, and stayed that way until she was almost 5,
while I went to college. We paid for food with funky colored "money" and
got shit from the other people in line for buying things that were "too
expensive" or "too junky", we went to too many appointments in big
crowded places where you get there at 6:30 to get a good place in line,
even though the door doesn't open until 7, and there's always a security
guard at the door and kids running around and being hit, and someonething
inevitably goes wrong, if not for us than for someone else, who then
screams and swears until she is escorted out by said security guard. And
WIC was another appointment, and then there's the Section 8 annual
inspection... and we visited her father in the jails and prisons until
she was almost 4, which involved waiting, and being searched, and going
through the metal detector, and waiting some more, and riding the bus
(she still remembers the bus at Perryville)...We lived right down the
street from the welfare office when she was born, and people would come
by and throw food to our dog and we'd go out and ask them not to because
it made her sick, but gently... it was all there, and we saw a lot of
people and they all had stories...
And there's the whole issue of letting her visit with her dad
unsupervised, which I started doing when she was 5 or so, because it
seemed to solve more problems than it created... but he does have that
"checkered past", she needed to know that if he drinks or smokes pot,
call me, and I'll come get her, and if he hits her, call me, and tell
me... none of that has ever happened with the two of them (well, except I
suspect he's smoked), but it all happened with him and me. Now her dad
is homeless, living in his car, and she knows that, although for the
first few weeks she didn't. It sucks, she's worried about him, she
offered her bedroom floor to him, but he wouldn't take it... so she got
him to take a wool blanket and a cake she baked, and felt better, and he
often sleeps at the highway rest stop nearest to our house, so we see him
driving home... but it makes you think differently about "the homeless"
when that means Dad...
I'm not sure if there's a point here. We live differently than a lot of
people, I guess... it never would occur to me not to tell my kid if
someone we knew had that link on his webpage. It would never occur to me
to hide that. Maybe that comes from having been hated as the lazy
drain-on-the-system welfare mom with the bastard kid. I also spent 6
years in the psych hospital gulag before Cacie was born, being hated.
Maybe being hated makes you respond differently to hatred, in any form.
And I don't know if this is better or worse, maybe she would be a happier
person if I'd been married and middle-class and she didn't know about all
this stuff as a little kid. I haven't spent any time thinking about it,
really. I imagine she'd be a different person.
Dar
Dan Vilter
On 5/2/02 12:01 PM, "freeform@..." <freeform@...> wrote:
the kids fairly regularly.
-Dan Vilter
> I'm jealous that you get to see Joylyn every week... :-)Actually, I've only meet Joylyn once. But I see her sweetheart, Mark and
the kids fairly regularly.
-Dan Vilter
Sharon Rudd
Dar, Beautiful Dar,
I doubt that Cacie could be happier with any other
life. She knows Trouble. And that is OK. There is
Trouble and she is still safe, thanks to her Mama.
There is Trouble and she know what to do. Call Mama.
I am sorry that her Dad is being so pitiful. But,
Casie is learning about who is responsible for who. WE
ARE EACH RESPOSIBLE FOR OURSELVES AND OUR CHILDREN.
And that is all. It isn't wrong to help out someone,
but what they do with that sympathy and help is up to
them. You are so wise to let Casie learn this while
she has her Mama to hold her when it hurts.
Am sending big hugs to you.O O O O O O O.
Love and Prayers
Sharon of the Swamp
.....................
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com
I doubt that Cacie could be happier with any other
life. She knows Trouble. And that is OK. There is
Trouble and she is still safe, thanks to her Mama.
There is Trouble and she know what to do. Call Mama.
I am sorry that her Dad is being so pitiful. But,
Casie is learning about who is responsible for who. WE
ARE EACH RESPOSIBLE FOR OURSELVES AND OUR CHILDREN.
And that is all. It isn't wrong to help out someone,
but what they do with that sympathy and help is up to
them. You are so wise to let Casie learn this while
she has her Mama to hold her when it hurts.
Am sending big hugs to you.O O O O O O O.
Love and Prayers
Sharon of the Swamp
.....................
> sheltering my kid from a lot of the evil in life has__________________________________________________
> never been an
> option, it just wasn't possible... she's just been
> there..................
> Maybe being hated makes you respond differently to
> hatred, in any form..................
> And I don't know if this is better or worse, maybe
> she would be a happier
> person if I'd been married and middle-class and she
> didn't know about all
> this stuff as a little kid. I haven't spent any time
> thinking about it,
> really. I imagine she'd be a different person.
> Dar
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com
Joylyn
freeform@... wrote:
And the last two days she's been reformating and reloading her work
computer and has been off line... I DO feel differently.
you.
Sappy, I know, but the truth. Your experiences have shaped you and I'll
never forget how when Anthony (my nephew) wanted to move the bed into
the other room when we stayed with you and you not only said OK but was
very much positive about him doing this--you felt this was a perfectly
acceptable and wonderful idea and by this ONE ACTION and ATTITUDE I
learned more then I learned from many parenting books. Anyway...
I agree with what you said. It would have been nice to protect my
children from racism and all the other crap out there, but I couldn't.
Janene was only 9 months old and she has no memory of not being served
at denny's but Lexie does. They pass a Denny's and stick their tongues
out and I almost want to teach them the finger so they can do that, but
for now their antics of flipping off Denny's with their tongues and body
language is enough. I cried for a long time over Denny's, because it
did shatter Lexie's innocence. For months and months afterwards we'd go
out to eat and as we would get out of the car Lexie would ask "mommy are
you sure they serve black people here?" And while occassionally I would
laugh and say "no they serve chicken and steak, not humans" mostly I
just reassured her that I believed there wouldn't be a problem but I had
my doubt too. Always before I woudl walk into a place to eat, knowing I
would be served, demanding not only simply food, but good service, that
my ice water be filled up promtly and that my food be cooked to my
liking but now, I had doubts that I would even be served ice water at
all.
A friend of mine has a little white, beautifully red headed child named
meg. Meg is a year younger than Lexie and the other day her mother was
telling me she bought a book and it wasn't until she was reading it to
Meg that she realized that the book was talking about how everyone has
different color skins and how they can still be friends. She said she
distracted Meg and didn't finish the story--she said Meg doesn't realize
that Lexie and Meg have different colored skins and has never had the
idea that children of different colors might not get along and she
didn't want to plant that idea into her child's head. And while I
disagree with the first point (I'm sure that Meg has noticed the
difference in skin color, she just doesn't care and hasn't commented on
it as yet), I don't know that it is always such a good idea to protect
our children from the bad stuff. Although maybe if my children were
white and I lived in an area where I was able to fool myself better and
say that racism is less than it was 30 years ago, maybe I would want to
protect my children. But I don't, and we don't, and I can't fool
myself. Racism is alive and well, although more subtle--most of the
time.
It's sad but Mark and I have talked about an aspect of education that
most of you have never thought of--how do we prepare our children for
the first time they are called a nigger. What will they say, how will
they respond. I remember being called a nigger lover when I was about 7
and I had never heard the word and had no idea how to respond. How does
one respond to that? Lexie has watched Roots, she's read Amastad, not
just the kid's version but I read to her the adult version, and she
watched the movie. She is getting an education about her past so that
she can be better prepared to deal with the future.
I still don't know the answer to the question. I guess if this man is
not the teacher, and only is one of the other members, then I'd leave
well enough alone. But I would let my son know, and I'd let him know
which one. Two years ago we lived near a white supremist. I would see
him driving and walking his dog, etc. I knew he was--he had a bunch of
telling stickers on his white truck, shaved head, and stared at me every
time he saw me and the girls together. Lexie was younger but now, I
think I would point out his car, point out the confederate flag and the
other stickers--she needs to know this person, and know that he is not
one to trust. See Lexie, this is why, this is the signs, see the flag,
see the shaved head, be aware, be careful. Knowledge is power,
information is key to making good decisions.
Someone said last night at a LLL meeting--I only read books that say
what I want to hear, that say breastfeeding is good, to not circ, etc.
I was thinking--how narrow minded that is. I read everything and then
make up my own mind. It was only after reading Ferber's book that I
truly understood why someone might want to do that to a baby, and also
that everything the man said was not bad--he had some good ideas about
sleep, just not about teaching babies to sleep alone. I read
bottlefeeding without a clue (Sorry, bottle feeding without guilt) cover
to cover, because it gave me insight into how women think and better
helps me support women in breastfeeding. It's unpleasant to teach my
child about racism, about the holocaust, to help give her the
information she needs to protect her self against those that would take
advantage of her sex, her age, her race, her desire to please. But I
want her to be a strong black woman (she doesn't have a choice about the
black part ;-) and so this information is necessary (and btw, we haven't
talked about the holocaust yet, but we will in a few years).
Well I've rambled enough and avoided doing the dishes.
Joylyn
--
Joylyn
Mom to Lexie (6) and Janene (3)
For great nursing clothes and slings, go to www.4mommyandme.com
"Wasn't it Mark Twain who said it takes a very dull person to spell a
word only one way?"
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>No, they get to see Mark and the girls every week. Joylyn has to work.
> On Thu, 02 May 2002 08:41:00 -0700 Dan Vilter <dvilter@...>
> writes:
> > But now the ugly concept hits my home
> > (or at least my park day group) and I begin to lose rational thought
>
> about
> > her kids, Denny's, and being hungry while on the road. My reaction
> is
> to
> > protect my son from this kind of confusion and pain.
> >
> > Maybe it's only *my* problem?
> >
> > I'll bet Joylyn feels differently.
>
> I'm jealous that you get to see Joylyn every week... :-)
And the last two days she's been reformating and reloading her work
computer and has been off line... I DO feel differently.
>I didn't realize that he was homeless. This must be so hard for all of
>
> I had never really considered this whole angle. I guess for me,
> sheltering my kid from a lot of the evil in life has never been an
> option, it just wasn't possible... she's just been there, and we
> talked a
> lot about things, but she knew. I was a single mom getting aid from
> the
> state when she was born, and stayed that way until she was almost 5,
> while I went to college. We paid for food with funky colored "money"
> and
> got shit from the other people in line for buying things that were
> "too
> expensive" or "too junky", we went to too many appointments in big
> crowded places where you get there at 6:30 to get a good place in
> line,
> even though the door doesn't open until 7, and there's always a
> security
> guard at the door and kids running around and being hit, and
> someonething
> inevitably goes wrong, if not for us than for someone else, who then
> screams and swears until she is escorted out by said security guard.
> And
> WIC was another appointment, and then there's the Section 8 annual
> inspection... and we visited her father in the jails and prisons until
>
> she was almost 4, which involved waiting, and being searched, and
> going
> through the metal detector, and waiting some more, and riding the bus
> (she still remembers the bus at Perryville)...We lived right down the
> street from the welfare office when she was born, and people would
> come
> by and throw food to our dog and we'd go out and ask them not to
> because
> it made her sick, but gently... it was all there, and we saw a lot of
> people and they all had stories...
>
> And there's the whole issue of letting her visit with her dad
> unsupervised, which I started doing when she was 5 or so, because it
> seemed to solve more problems than it created... but he does have that
>
> "checkered past", she needed to know that if he drinks or smokes pot,
> call me, and I'll come get her, and if he hits her, call me, and tell
> me... none of that has ever happened with the two of them (well,
> except I
> suspect he's smoked), but it all happened with him and me. Now her
> dad
> is homeless, living in his car, and she knows that, although for the
> first few weeks she didn't. It sucks, she's worried about him, she
> offered her bedroom floor to him, but he wouldn't take it... so she
> got
> him to take a wool blanket and a cake she baked, and felt better, and
> he
> often sleeps at the highway rest stop nearest to our house, so we see
> him
> driving home... but it makes you think differently about "the
> homeless"
> when that means Dad...
you.
>Yeah, she would be, but then, I love you both just the way you are.
>
> I'm not sure if there's a point here. We live differently than a lot
> of
> people, I guess... it never would occur to me not to tell my kid if
> someone we knew had that link on his webpage. It would never occur to
> me
> to hide that. Maybe that comes from having been hated as the lazy
> drain-on-the-system welfare mom with the bastard kid. I also spent 6
> years in the psych hospital gulag before Cacie was born, being hated.
> Maybe being hated makes you respond differently to hatred, in any
> form.
>
> And I don't know if this is better or worse, maybe she would be a
> happier
> person if I'd been married and middle-class and she didn't know about
> all
> this stuff as a little kid. I haven't spent any time thinking about
> it,
> really. I imagine she'd be a different person.
Sappy, I know, but the truth. Your experiences have shaped you and I'll
never forget how when Anthony (my nephew) wanted to move the bed into
the other room when we stayed with you and you not only said OK but was
very much positive about him doing this--you felt this was a perfectly
acceptable and wonderful idea and by this ONE ACTION and ATTITUDE I
learned more then I learned from many parenting books. Anyway...
I agree with what you said. It would have been nice to protect my
children from racism and all the other crap out there, but I couldn't.
Janene was only 9 months old and she has no memory of not being served
at denny's but Lexie does. They pass a Denny's and stick their tongues
out and I almost want to teach them the finger so they can do that, but
for now their antics of flipping off Denny's with their tongues and body
language is enough. I cried for a long time over Denny's, because it
did shatter Lexie's innocence. For months and months afterwards we'd go
out to eat and as we would get out of the car Lexie would ask "mommy are
you sure they serve black people here?" And while occassionally I would
laugh and say "no they serve chicken and steak, not humans" mostly I
just reassured her that I believed there wouldn't be a problem but I had
my doubt too. Always before I woudl walk into a place to eat, knowing I
would be served, demanding not only simply food, but good service, that
my ice water be filled up promtly and that my food be cooked to my
liking but now, I had doubts that I would even be served ice water at
all.
A friend of mine has a little white, beautifully red headed child named
meg. Meg is a year younger than Lexie and the other day her mother was
telling me she bought a book and it wasn't until she was reading it to
Meg that she realized that the book was talking about how everyone has
different color skins and how they can still be friends. She said she
distracted Meg and didn't finish the story--she said Meg doesn't realize
that Lexie and Meg have different colored skins and has never had the
idea that children of different colors might not get along and she
didn't want to plant that idea into her child's head. And while I
disagree with the first point (I'm sure that Meg has noticed the
difference in skin color, she just doesn't care and hasn't commented on
it as yet), I don't know that it is always such a good idea to protect
our children from the bad stuff. Although maybe if my children were
white and I lived in an area where I was able to fool myself better and
say that racism is less than it was 30 years ago, maybe I would want to
protect my children. But I don't, and we don't, and I can't fool
myself. Racism is alive and well, although more subtle--most of the
time.
It's sad but Mark and I have talked about an aspect of education that
most of you have never thought of--how do we prepare our children for
the first time they are called a nigger. What will they say, how will
they respond. I remember being called a nigger lover when I was about 7
and I had never heard the word and had no idea how to respond. How does
one respond to that? Lexie has watched Roots, she's read Amastad, not
just the kid's version but I read to her the adult version, and she
watched the movie. She is getting an education about her past so that
she can be better prepared to deal with the future.
I still don't know the answer to the question. I guess if this man is
not the teacher, and only is one of the other members, then I'd leave
well enough alone. But I would let my son know, and I'd let him know
which one. Two years ago we lived near a white supremist. I would see
him driving and walking his dog, etc. I knew he was--he had a bunch of
telling stickers on his white truck, shaved head, and stared at me every
time he saw me and the girls together. Lexie was younger but now, I
think I would point out his car, point out the confederate flag and the
other stickers--she needs to know this person, and know that he is not
one to trust. See Lexie, this is why, this is the signs, see the flag,
see the shaved head, be aware, be careful. Knowledge is power,
information is key to making good decisions.
Someone said last night at a LLL meeting--I only read books that say
what I want to hear, that say breastfeeding is good, to not circ, etc.
I was thinking--how narrow minded that is. I read everything and then
make up my own mind. It was only after reading Ferber's book that I
truly understood why someone might want to do that to a baby, and also
that everything the man said was not bad--he had some good ideas about
sleep, just not about teaching babies to sleep alone. I read
bottlefeeding without a clue (Sorry, bottle feeding without guilt) cover
to cover, because it gave me insight into how women think and better
helps me support women in breastfeeding. It's unpleasant to teach my
child about racism, about the holocaust, to help give her the
information she needs to protect her self against those that would take
advantage of her sex, her age, her race, her desire to please. But I
want her to be a strong black woman (she doesn't have a choice about the
black part ;-) and so this information is necessary (and btw, we haven't
talked about the holocaust yet, but we will in a few years).
Well I've rambled enough and avoided doing the dishes.
Joylyn
--
Joylyn
Mom to Lexie (6) and Janene (3)
For great nursing clothes and slings, go to www.4mommyandme.com
"Wasn't it Mark Twain who said it takes a very dull person to spell a
word only one way?"
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/4/02 2:04:57 AM Central Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
<< . I cried for a long time over Denny's, because it
did shatter Lexie's innocence. For months and months afterwards we'd go
out to eat and as we would get out of the car Lexie would ask "mommy are
you sure they serve black people here?" >>
I am so sorry Joylyn.
What an awful experience....I just can hardly believe that something like
this happened in todays world.
Of course that's coming from my caucasian looking self.
I'm not naive about prejudice. I lived in Hawaii and got spit on, tormented
and treated pretty bad by many natives over there for the year we lived in
Kona. White people were not welcome, unless they had lived there from birth
and looked the part.
My family is racially mixed by adoption. Eskimo, Indian and Caucasian.
And living in the South has made me realize that the KKK is alive and
well....something I could hardly believe at first. I thought they were
scattered and few in number. Not so.
So I guess I am a little naive after all.
But I still just get a huge knot in my stomache thinking of your family being
treated this way!!
Denny's ought to be sued. That is inexcusable.
I didn't like them as it was, I guarantee I'll never eat there again after
hearing this.
Ren
[email protected] writes:
<< . I cried for a long time over Denny's, because it
did shatter Lexie's innocence. For months and months afterwards we'd go
out to eat and as we would get out of the car Lexie would ask "mommy are
you sure they serve black people here?" >>
I am so sorry Joylyn.
What an awful experience....I just can hardly believe that something like
this happened in todays world.
Of course that's coming from my caucasian looking self.
I'm not naive about prejudice. I lived in Hawaii and got spit on, tormented
and treated pretty bad by many natives over there for the year we lived in
Kona. White people were not welcome, unless they had lived there from birth
and looked the part.
My family is racially mixed by adoption. Eskimo, Indian and Caucasian.
And living in the South has made me realize that the KKK is alive and
well....something I could hardly believe at first. I thought they were
scattered and few in number. Not so.
So I guess I am a little naive after all.
But I still just get a huge knot in my stomache thinking of your family being
treated this way!!
Denny's ought to be sued. That is inexcusable.
I didn't like them as it was, I guarantee I'll never eat there again after
hearing this.
Ren
Kinkade
<< What an awful experience....I just can hardly believe that something like
this happened in todays world. >>
I agree it is unbelievable that this could happen today. But, sadly, it does.
I grew up in a home where my father was a quiet racist. He grew up in a time when he (a white child) never went to school with black children. He used to apologize to my sister and I because we (as he would say) "had to go to school with them". I really didn't understand what he was talking about. My grandmother, (his mother) would make racial slurs to my sister and I about black parts of town, of which I really never understood. I don't know what it was that made me not see what they were saying. I was always the kind of person who saw people, not color. It was when I became an adult that I saw racism, but to my surprise it was against me. The truth is, I will never know what it feels like to be called a nigger... (that word is hard to type, yuk). What surprised me was how racist some black people were. At first I thought it was just simple racism, when they called me racist names, and referred to my children in the same way. But now, while it still hurts, I think it was more of a feeling that they wanted to retaliate for all the hurtful racist remarks made to them by other white folks. I think we all need to realize that racist remarks, or web sites or books or any form of racism is harmful. It doesn't matter if the racist remark is intended for white or black folks. We are all human beings, all with feelings, and it's harm is more outreaching than you might think. I am so sorry for what happened to you at Denny's. I can never know exactly how that felt, I am still very crushed by the way you were treated.
I wonder will we, (people) ever grow? Will we ever stop hating? We all, black and white, need to find a place to start. I really don't think we have come very far in the past 30 years, I think in some ways we are right where we started.
These are just some of my thoughts,
Rebecca
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
this happened in todays world. >>
I agree it is unbelievable that this could happen today. But, sadly, it does.
I grew up in a home where my father was a quiet racist. He grew up in a time when he (a white child) never went to school with black children. He used to apologize to my sister and I because we (as he would say) "had to go to school with them". I really didn't understand what he was talking about. My grandmother, (his mother) would make racial slurs to my sister and I about black parts of town, of which I really never understood. I don't know what it was that made me not see what they were saying. I was always the kind of person who saw people, not color. It was when I became an adult that I saw racism, but to my surprise it was against me. The truth is, I will never know what it feels like to be called a nigger... (that word is hard to type, yuk). What surprised me was how racist some black people were. At first I thought it was just simple racism, when they called me racist names, and referred to my children in the same way. But now, while it still hurts, I think it was more of a feeling that they wanted to retaliate for all the hurtful racist remarks made to them by other white folks. I think we all need to realize that racist remarks, or web sites or books or any form of racism is harmful. It doesn't matter if the racist remark is intended for white or black folks. We are all human beings, all with feelings, and it's harm is more outreaching than you might think. I am so sorry for what happened to you at Denny's. I can never know exactly how that felt, I am still very crushed by the way you were treated.
I wonder will we, (people) ever grow? Will we ever stop hating? We all, black and white, need to find a place to start. I really don't think we have come very far in the past 30 years, I think in some ways we are right where we started.
These are just some of my thoughts,
Rebecca
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/4/02 8:23:28 AM, starsuncloud@... writes:
<< Denny's ought to be sued. That is inexcusable.
I didn't like them as it was, I guarantee I'll never eat there again after
hearing this. >>
If you don't want to judge all unschoolers by one bad family, or for someone
to judge all of [insert your race here] by the worst stereotypes on bigotted
movies from 1965, do you think it's fair to judge all of a restaurant chain
by the actions of one employee a few years ago?
Much of this discussion has been about prejudice, but not of the one original
guy who has a link to someone else's webpage.
When and how does it get better? By everyone else perpetuating it?
Sandra
<< Denny's ought to be sued. That is inexcusable.
I didn't like them as it was, I guarantee I'll never eat there again after
hearing this. >>
If you don't want to judge all unschoolers by one bad family, or for someone
to judge all of [insert your race here] by the worst stereotypes on bigotted
movies from 1965, do you think it's fair to judge all of a restaurant chain
by the actions of one employee a few years ago?
Much of this discussion has been about prejudice, but not of the one original
guy who has a link to someone else's webpage.
When and how does it get better? By everyone else perpetuating it?
Sandra
Karen
http://instruction.bus.wisc.edu/obdemo/suplmnts/dennysgbu.htm
Old news, Ren, and they've done a 180 now. I don't eat there but once in a
blue moon anyway, but I won't hold it against them anymore; they've come a
long way.
Karen
hearing this.
Ren
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Old news, Ren, and they've done a 180 now. I don't eat there but once in a
blue moon anyway, but I won't hold it against them anymore; they've come a
long way.
Karen
>> Denny's ought to be sued. That is inexcusable.I didn't like them as it was, I guarantee I'll never eat there again after
hearing this.
Ren
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
On Sat, 4 May 2002 18:11:03 EDT SandraDodd@... writes:
felt, finding that link and all it implies.
In addition to the racist junk he got a smack in the face from someone he
admired and respected. This has probably happened to everyone, sometime
or other, but when it's over a subject like racism it seems even worse.
We try so hard to be decent people and hope so much our children will.
Then there's that whole guilty by association thing. Not to mention, "if
you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem." It's a
wonder we haven't all gone insane.
I don't know how to answer Dan's question. How far do you go? If you
know Wal-mart pays Chinese workers less than Chinese minimum wage (that's
what 38 cents an hour? ) Do you stop shopping at Wal-mart? If you
know the Department of Livestock is killing Yellowstone Bison every day,
do you stop paying your taxes? If you don't, are you part of the
problem? Is it just the same as going to a club every week with a nut
job?
None of us believe in the public school system, but we all pay for it.
What do you do, and what do you leave alone?
I'm sorry for you Dan. It's still bothering you after two years and I
guess that just means you're a nice guy.
Maybe you could turn him in to the FBI or something. Maybe you could
send Pam after him.
Deb L
>I keep thinking about this guy. I can just begin to imagine how Dan
> Much of this discussion has been about prejudice, but not of the one
> original
> guy who has a link to someone else's webpage.
felt, finding that link and all it implies.
In addition to the racist junk he got a smack in the face from someone he
admired and respected. This has probably happened to everyone, sometime
or other, but when it's over a subject like racism it seems even worse.
We try so hard to be decent people and hope so much our children will.
Then there's that whole guilty by association thing. Not to mention, "if
you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem." It's a
wonder we haven't all gone insane.
I don't know how to answer Dan's question. How far do you go? If you
know Wal-mart pays Chinese workers less than Chinese minimum wage (that's
what 38 cents an hour? ) Do you stop shopping at Wal-mart? If you
know the Department of Livestock is killing Yellowstone Bison every day,
do you stop paying your taxes? If you don't, are you part of the
problem? Is it just the same as going to a club every week with a nut
job?
None of us believe in the public school system, but we all pay for it.
What do you do, and what do you leave alone?
I'm sorry for you Dan. It's still bothering you after two years and I
guess that just means you're a nice guy.
Maybe you could turn him in to the FBI or something. Maybe you could
send Pam after him.
Deb L
[email protected]
<< Maybe you could turn him in to the FBI or something. >>
On what grounds?
Is there or is there not freedom of expression and freedom of belief in this
country?
Should all Christian churches which believe that homosexuality is a sin be
turned in to the FBI?
Should all churches that preach that Moslems are an abomination in a
Christian world be turned in to the FBI?
Sandra
On what grounds?
Is there or is there not freedom of expression and freedom of belief in this
country?
Should all Christian churches which believe that homosexuality is a sin be
turned in to the FBI?
Should all churches that preach that Moslems are an abomination in a
Christian world be turned in to the FBI?
Sandra
[email protected]
On Sat, 4 May 2002 20:46:25 EDT SandraDodd@... writes:
Deb L
>I was joking. Not very well apparently.
> << Maybe you could turn him in to the FBI or something. >>
>
> On what grounds?
Deb L
[email protected]
But to answer your questions...
you want to believe something stupid.
I don't personally believe we need to be protected from idiots. I don't
think everyone who offends us needs to be locked up.
We didn't arrive with a guarantee we'd never run into jerks. Or that
we'd never be thought of as jerks ourselves.
Deb L
> Is there or is there not freedom of expression and freedom of beliefThere should be freedom of expression and freedom of belief. Even if
> in this
> country?
> Should all Christian churches which believe that homosexuality is a
> sin be
> turned in to the FBI?
> Should all churches that preach that Moslems are an abomination in a
> Christian world be turned in to the FBI?
you want to believe something stupid.
I don't personally believe we need to be protected from idiots. I don't
think everyone who offends us needs to be locked up.
We didn't arrive with a guarantee we'd never run into jerks. Or that
we'd never be thought of as jerks ourselves.
Deb L
Joylyn
SandraDodd@... wrote:
action lawsuits that I know of, I have copies of two of them. Two are
in california, both Northern. One is from Florida. I did retain an
attorney but I had no witnesses, other than children, and Denny's was
not admitting to anything but shoddy service. They have lost all three
lawsuits, but I know that about a year ago there was another one, I
think they settled out of court. This is not one person, this is a
trend across the entire company. Sadly.
Joylyn
[Image]
Joylyn
Mom to Lexie (6) and Janene (3)
For great nursing clothes and slings, go to www.4mommyandme.com
"Wasn't it Mark Twain who said it takes a very dull person to spell a
word only one way?"
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>Uh, Sandra, Denny's has been sued. There have been at least three class
> In a message dated 5/4/02 8:23:28 AM, starsuncloud@... writes:
>
> << Denny's ought to be sued. That is inexcusable.
> I didn't like them as it was, I guarantee I'll never eat there again
> after
> hearing this. >>
>
> If you don't want to judge all unschoolers by one bad family, or for
> someone
> to judge all of [insert your race here] by the worst stereotypes on
> bigotted
> movies from 1965, do you think it's fair to judge all of a restaurant
> chain
> by the actions of one employee a few years ago?
action lawsuits that I know of, I have copies of two of them. Two are
in california, both Northern. One is from Florida. I did retain an
attorney but I had no witnesses, other than children, and Denny's was
not admitting to anything but shoddy service. They have lost all three
lawsuits, but I know that about a year ago there was another one, I
think they settled out of court. This is not one person, this is a
trend across the entire company. Sadly.
Joylyn
>ADVERTISEMENT
>
> Much of this discussion has been about prejudice, but not of the one
> original
> guy who has a link to someone else's webpage.
>
> When and how does it get better? By everyone else perpetuating it?
>
> Sandra
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
[Image]
>--
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Joylyn
Mom to Lexie (6) and Janene (3)
For great nursing clothes and slings, go to www.4mommyandme.com
"Wasn't it Mark Twain who said it takes a very dull person to spell a
word only one way?"
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joylyn
They say that they've come a long way, but as for me and mine, I think
I'll avoid giving them my money. Of course, it's immaterial, Lexie and
Janene wouldn't allow us to go.
Joylyn
Karen wrote:
[Click Here!]
Joylyn
Mom to Lexie (6) and Janene (3)
For great nursing clothes and slings, go to www.4mommyandme.com
"Wasn't it Mark Twain who said it takes a very dull person to spell a
word only one way?"
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I'll avoid giving them my money. Of course, it's immaterial, Lexie and
Janene wouldn't allow us to go.
Joylyn
Karen wrote:
> http://instruction.bus.wisc.edu/obdemo/suplmnts/dennysgbu.htmADVERTISEMENT
>
> Old news, Ren, and they've done a 180 now. I don't eat there but once
> in a
> blue moon anyway, but I won't hold it against them anymore; they've
> come a
> long way.
>
> Karen
>
> >> Denny's ought to be sued. That is inexcusable.
> I didn't like them as it was, I guarantee I'll never eat there again
> after
> hearing this.
> Ren
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
[Click Here!]
>--
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Joylyn
Mom to Lexie (6) and Janene (3)
For great nursing clothes and slings, go to www.4mommyandme.com
"Wasn't it Mark Twain who said it takes a very dull person to spell a
word only one way?"
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/4/02 7:50:38 PM, ddzimlew@... writes:
<< We didn't arrive with a guarantee we'd never run into jerks. Or that
we'd never be thought of as jerks ourselves. >>
Or that jerks would always be obvious jerks, and not closet jerks.
Sandra
<< We didn't arrive with a guarantee we'd never run into jerks. Or that
we'd never be thought of as jerks ourselves. >>
Or that jerks would always be obvious jerks, and not closet jerks.
Sandra
[email protected]
> Or that jerks would always be obvious jerks, and not closet jerks.Yeah, it'd be so much easier if all the bad guys looked the part.
Deb L
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/4/02 8:10:16 PM, joylyn@... writes:
<< I did retain an
attorney but I had no witnesses, other than children, and Denny's was
not admitting to anything but shoddy service. >>
Other than the victims... That's a bummer that they say "just children."
I was hit by a creep, who did $1800 worth of damage to my van. I didn't know
he was a creep until he lied to the insurance company, saying I pulled into
his lane which I DID NOT. I had Kirby and Holly as witnesses, but they were
related to the driver (never mind that Holly was sitting where his car hit,
in a carseat, and Kirby was 10 or 11 and should've been listened to).
But still, I think if certain restaurants in northern California and Florida
did something dispicable, it doesn't follow that boycotting the Denny's in
Santa Fe will make the world a better place. Or encouraging kids to stick
tongues out at it.
I'd hate if a family stuck their tongue out at my house every time they
passed by, or my business, or my church, or my favorite record store, if it
was based on something that happened several states away.
(Now you'll probably say "Hey! It happened in Santa Fe!!" <bwg>)
Marty, for a couple of years, said "I HATE THAT PLACE" every time we passed
the Methodist church on Constitution, east of Wyoming (I'm naming this place
because Joylyn's from Albuquerque). Why? Because one day I left him and
Kirby at a Mom's Day Out so I could go Christmas shopping, and Marty had a
bad time.
I finally convinced him it wasn't the fault of the building, nor of the
Methodists in general, nor of churches in general, and that the people who
were working there that day were probably long gone.
Sandra
<< I did retain an
attorney but I had no witnesses, other than children, and Denny's was
not admitting to anything but shoddy service. >>
Other than the victims... That's a bummer that they say "just children."
I was hit by a creep, who did $1800 worth of damage to my van. I didn't know
he was a creep until he lied to the insurance company, saying I pulled into
his lane which I DID NOT. I had Kirby and Holly as witnesses, but they were
related to the driver (never mind that Holly was sitting where his car hit,
in a carseat, and Kirby was 10 or 11 and should've been listened to).
But still, I think if certain restaurants in northern California and Florida
did something dispicable, it doesn't follow that boycotting the Denny's in
Santa Fe will make the world a better place. Or encouraging kids to stick
tongues out at it.
I'd hate if a family stuck their tongue out at my house every time they
passed by, or my business, or my church, or my favorite record store, if it
was based on something that happened several states away.
(Now you'll probably say "Hey! It happened in Santa Fe!!" <bwg>)
Marty, for a couple of years, said "I HATE THAT PLACE" every time we passed
the Methodist church on Constitution, east of Wyoming (I'm naming this place
because Joylyn's from Albuquerque). Why? Because one day I left him and
Kirby at a Mom's Day Out so I could go Christmas shopping, and Marty had a
bad time.
I finally convinced him it wasn't the fault of the building, nor of the
Methodists in general, nor of churches in general, and that the people who
were working there that day were probably long gone.
Sandra
Dana Matt
> But still, I think if certain restaurants inIt's a corporation....I find it hard to find sympathy
> northern California and Florida
> did something dispicable, it doesn't follow that
> boycotting the Denny's in
> Santa Fe will make the world a better place. Or
> encouraging kids to stick
> tongues out at it.
for a corporation. If they, as a corporation, don't
have standards on how to deal with racism, sexism,
agism, whatever, among the parts of their corporation,
they need to get them. Boycotting a bad corporation
CAN help. Be vocal about it. If *your* neighborhood
corporation also doesn't agree with shoddy treatment
you recieved at another restaraunt in their chain,
they can come out publicly against it! This isn't a
case of "Oh, I met a mean methodist, so all of them
must be mean..." This is a company, and $ is their
bottom line. If you don't demand it from them, you
won't receive it (whatever "it" is....being treated
like a human being, organic food, no smoking
restaraunts, whatever...)
Just my .02
Dana
Montana Mama
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com
Sharon Rudd
But I still just get a huge knot in my stomache
don't recall the details. I think it was about 1992 or
3. Somewhere in there. Pehaps it was employees, rather
than customers.
Sharon of the Swamp
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com
> thinking of your family beingI think they were sued, not too many years ago! I
> treated this way!!
> Denny's ought to be sued. That is inexcusable.
> I didn't like them as it was, I guarantee I'll never
> eat there again after
> hearing this.
> Ren
>
don't recall the details. I think it was about 1992 or
3. Somewhere in there. Pehaps it was employees, rather
than customers.
Sharon of the Swamp
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/5/2002 9:37:44 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
opportunities that arise to let kids in on it when a seemingly "good guy" has
a dark side -- like the robotics guy who is a white supremist.
--pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected] writes:
> > Or that jerks would always be obvious jerks, and not closet jerks.Which is back to a reason it might be worthwhile to take natural
>
> Yeah, it'd be so much easier if all the bad guys looked the part.
opportunities that arise to let kids in on it when a seemingly "good guy" has
a dark side -- like the robotics guy who is a white supremist.
--pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joylyn
Sorry for the late reply
SandraDodd@... wrote:
really blame them. Now, 11 or 12--there would be no excuse.
others are owned by the corp. But to me, it makes me feel better to not
give any of my money to a company that has had such serious problems.
Sure, maybe they are doing better now... but.... The original complaints
came out in the late 80's, and Mark and I decided then not to eat
there. The only reason we did so on that night is that I was alone,
traveling with two children who had slept through our usual stopping
place (barstow) and the kids woke up, hungry, right before this little
town with a huge thermometer in the middle of the desert. I had a few
things to eat in the car but not a meal and we were still 2 hours
outside of Vegas, where Mark was playing for 9 weeks. We would go every
other weekend. I had been trying to get out of town, to beat traffic,
and was planning on stopping at the grocery store in barstow but when
the kids were asleep I changed my plan and pushed on, thinking I'd stop
for food in vegas. When we hit baker and the kids were awake, there
weren't a lot of choices. So I too thought--hmm, those cases happened in
Northern CA, and in Florida, and that was a few years ago, surely
they've changed, and I have two hungry kids and I'm white.... So I
stopped. Wrong decision. So for me, I just won't give my money to
Denny's, and I won't risk taking my children into a place where this has
happened to them, I won't even suggest it, even if they would allow it.
cathartic. Lexie especially still struggles over this and I think it
makes them feel better. But I think you are right, I think I will
mention next time that maybe they need to put this behind them, etc.
sister. I attended youth group there, taught sunday school and also
worked in the Mother's day Out program for about 6 months one year, when
I was in college. My sister's in-laws go to church there still and I'm
sure I'm still a member on the books, at least. I have fond memories of
that church, and I might visit once in a while but I doubt if I'll ever
attend again.
that particular day. What would be the odds. I think I worked there in
1984 ish...
going to that church for as long as we have known them. It was the
church of my youth, my parents ran the youth program when I was a
child. Millie was my brother's preschool teacher in 1974 something, and
then Julie and her son were married, and then my grandmother lived with
her mother-in-law for a while, until the mil died and then Millie found
another old lady from the church for my grandmother to live with until
that old lady died... anyway, I guess that church and our family are
pretty interwined together. Interesting Kirby has bad memories, well I
guess I do too. Bad and good. OK ramble over. just the mention of the
church brought backa lot of memories... interesting....
joylyn
--
Joylyn
Mom to Lexie (6) and Janene (3)
For great nursing clothes and slings, go to www.4mommyandme.com
"Wasn't it Mark Twain who said it takes a very dull person to spell a
word only one way?"
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... wrote:
>well yes, but Janene was 9 months and Lexie was 4 years, so I don't
> In a message dated 5/4/02 8:10:16 PM, joylyn@... writes:
>
> << I did retain an
> attorney but I had no witnesses, other than children, and Denny's was
> not admitting to anything but shoddy service. >>
>
> Other than the victims... That's a bummer that they say "just
> children."
really blame them. Now, 11 or 12--there would be no excuse.
>And he should have been!
>
> I was hit by a creep, who did $1800 worth of damage to my van. I
> didn't know
> he was a creep until he lied to the insurance company, saying I pulled
> into
> his lane which I DID NOT. I had Kirby and Holly as witnesses, but
> they were
> related to the driver (never mind that Holly was sitting where his car
> hit,
> in a carseat, and Kirby was 10 or 11 and should've been listened to).
>
>Well, that is true, especially as many are owned by individuals, and
> But still, I think if certain restaurants in northern California and
> Florida
> did something dispicable, it doesn't follow that boycotting the
> Denny's in
> Santa Fe will make the world a better place.
others are owned by the corp. But to me, it makes me feel better to not
give any of my money to a company that has had such serious problems.
Sure, maybe they are doing better now... but.... The original complaints
came out in the late 80's, and Mark and I decided then not to eat
there. The only reason we did so on that night is that I was alone,
traveling with two children who had slept through our usual stopping
place (barstow) and the kids woke up, hungry, right before this little
town with a huge thermometer in the middle of the desert. I had a few
things to eat in the car but not a meal and we were still 2 hours
outside of Vegas, where Mark was playing for 9 weeks. We would go every
other weekend. I had been trying to get out of town, to beat traffic,
and was planning on stopping at the grocery store in barstow but when
the kids were asleep I changed my plan and pushed on, thinking I'd stop
for food in vegas. When we hit baker and the kids were awake, there
weren't a lot of choices. So I too thought--hmm, those cases happened in
Northern CA, and in Florida, and that was a few years ago, surely
they've changed, and I have two hungry kids and I'm white.... So I
stopped. Wrong decision. So for me, I just won't give my money to
Denny's, and I won't risk taking my children into a place where this has
happened to them, I won't even suggest it, even if they would allow it.
> Or encouraging kids to stickYou have a very good point, but I think for Lexie and Janene, it's very
> tongues out at it.
>
cathartic. Lexie especially still struggles over this and I think it
makes them feel better. But I think you are right, I think I will
mention next time that maybe they need to put this behind them, etc.
>Yep, St. Pauls United Methodist Church. I was married there, as was my
> I'd hate if a family stuck their tongue out at my house every time
> they
> passed by, or my business, or my church, or my favorite record store,
> if it
> was based on something that happened several states away.
>
> (Now you'll probably say "Hey! It happened in Santa Fe!!" <bwg>)
>
> Marty, for a couple of years, said "I HATE THAT PLACE" every time we
> passed
> the Methodist church on Constitution, east of Wyoming (I'm naming this
> place
> because Joylyn's from Albuquerque).
sister. I attended youth group there, taught sunday school and also
worked in the Mother's day Out program for about 6 months one year, when
I was in college. My sister's in-laws go to church there still and I'm
sure I'm still a member on the books, at least. I have fond memories of
that church, and I might visit once in a while but I doubt if I'll ever
attend again.
> Why? Because one day I left him andhmm, that woudl be too funny if it were I that was watching the kids on
> Kirby at a Mom's Day Out so I could go Christmas shopping, and Marty
> had a
> bad time.
that particular day. What would be the odds. I think I worked there in
1984 ish...
>well, not necessarily. Millie Conrad (my sister's in laws) have been
>
> I finally convinced him it wasn't the fault of the building, nor of
> the
> Methodists in general, nor of churches in general, and that the people
> who
> were working there that day were probably long gone.
going to that church for as long as we have known them. It was the
church of my youth, my parents ran the youth program when I was a
child. Millie was my brother's preschool teacher in 1974 something, and
then Julie and her son were married, and then my grandmother lived with
her mother-in-law for a while, until the mil died and then Millie found
another old lady from the church for my grandmother to live with until
that old lady died... anyway, I guess that church and our family are
pretty interwined together. Interesting Kirby has bad memories, well I
guess I do too. Bad and good. OK ramble over. just the mention of the
church brought backa lot of memories... interesting....
joylyn
--
Joylyn
Mom to Lexie (6) and Janene (3)
For great nursing clothes and slings, go to www.4mommyandme.com
"Wasn't it Mark Twain who said it takes a very dull person to spell a
word only one way?"
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sharon Rudd
> Yep, St. Paul's United Methodist Church.Not you might not be on the"books" anymore. They
purge the enrollment of not active "members" after a
while.
The last time I attended St Paul's Methodist Church in
Tallahassee was 1966 or 7. When I asked, I was told
that Blacks "would be politely shown to the basement
to listen to the sermon on the intercom". Ast. Pastor
Ewing, with his bald head, told me this. He did have
the grace :-) to blush. I argued some, and left, most
of the rest of the Methodist Youth Fellowship left
with me. The "policy" was changed a few years later,
but it took effort. Lots of organized efforts were
made in desegregation during this time (66-71)and
some progress was made in lots of areas (work place,
housing, food service, places of worship, etc.)
. We went to lots of churches in small groups to see
what would happen. We didn't get glad handed, but then
again, nobody was "politely shown to the basement"
either. Actually I personally never did go back to
that particular institution.
Oh yes,Independence for the Blind used their community
room and kitchen one year for banquette.
Anyway. St Paul's Methodist Church is worse than
Denny's. They weren't honest bigots. They were
basement bigots.
Sharon of the Swamp
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Mother's Day is May 12th!
http://shopping.yahoo.com
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/8/02 5:27:51 PM, bearspawprint@... writes:
<< St Paul's Methodist Church is worse than
Denny's. >>
I don't think it's a chain of Methodist Churches is it??
And 1966 was a lifetime ago. I think some women born in 1966 even have
CHILDREN by now!! <g>
Sandra
<< St Paul's Methodist Church is worse than
Denny's. >>
I don't think it's a chain of Methodist Churches is it??
And 1966 was a lifetime ago. I think some women born in 1966 even have
CHILDREN by now!! <g>
Sandra
Joylyn
SandraDodd@... wrote:
are a chain, as are all catholics, etc. etc.
They do talk to one another.
Joylyn
[Image]
Height: ftin
Weight:
Sex:FM
>well, yeah, in the same way all methodists
> In a message dated 5/8/02 5:27:51 PM,
> bearspawprint@... writes:
>
> << St Paul's Methodist Church is worse
> than
> Denny's. >>
>
> I don't think it's a chain of Methodist
> Churches is it??
are a chain, as are all catholics, etc. etc.
They do talk to one another.
>Yeah that is true. I was born in 1965
>
> And 1966 was a lifetime ago. I think some
> women born in 1966 even have
> CHILDREN by now!! <g>
Joylyn
>ADVERTISEMENT
>
> Sandra
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
[Image]
Height: ftin
Weight:
Sex:FM
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an
> email to:
> [email protected]
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
> Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[email protected]
I tend toramble on and on so I am just going to skip to my question this timewithout providing a bunch of background information. I'm just wonderingwhat any of you would do if you think/know that one of your teenagerswas smoking marijuana and/or drinking? I know that a lot of teenagersexperiment and don't become drug addicts/alcoholics but I still havebig concerns about health and safety. I will provide more informationif necessary but I would just like to know if anyone else hasexperienced this and how you handled it or if you haven't experiencedit, how would you handle it? Any thoughts or comments on this would begreatly appreciated. Thanks.
Take care,
Sherri
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Take care,
Sherri
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=- I'm just wonderingwhat any of you would do if you think/know that
one of your teenagerswas smoking marijuana and/or drinking? I know
that a lot of teenagersexperiment and don't become drug addicts/
alcoholics but I still havebig concerns about health and safety.-=-
My kids knew before they were old enough to even want to drink that
alcoholism can be genetic and that my mom was a life-ruining alcoholic
(ruining more lives than her own). They knew that their cousins (my
sister's kids) had three alcoholic grandparents, where they only have
one. And sure enough, one of those cousins has had serious problems
with alcohol and drugs.
When I was a kid, in the 1960's, I saw dozens of families broken apart
because the parents over-reacted to children's experimentations with
sex, drugs and rock'n'roll. I saw suicides and I saw other horrors
that weren't useful or necessary, and when the parents were drinkers,
cigarette smokers or pill users, the hypocrisy only added to the tone
of the responses of all their friends and relatives.
What I have done is remind my kids about laws and safety, not
naggingly (I'd like to think), but just as I'd remind them about being
careful about the electric bill or turning their car lights on if it's
raining. But my kids never did go to school, and we've been and
stayed close all that time. They've talked to me when they were
drinking. Not all ran home and said "I smoked marijuana!" when they
did, but I know at this point that each of them has. Not all "do" in
the do-it-all-the-time way. Only one is legally old enough to drink,
but all three have, at parties.
I could have made a big deal about it. I could have grounded them. I
could have punished them. Then what?
If the situation you're asking about involves a child who was in
school for a long time, or parents who haven't been involved in
alternative ways of parenting, then the situation will be entirely
different. If it's a step-child situation with other parents
elsewhere, again it's completely different.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
one of your teenagerswas smoking marijuana and/or drinking? I know
that a lot of teenagersexperiment and don't become drug addicts/
alcoholics but I still havebig concerns about health and safety.-=-
My kids knew before they were old enough to even want to drink that
alcoholism can be genetic and that my mom was a life-ruining alcoholic
(ruining more lives than her own). They knew that their cousins (my
sister's kids) had three alcoholic grandparents, where they only have
one. And sure enough, one of those cousins has had serious problems
with alcohol and drugs.
When I was a kid, in the 1960's, I saw dozens of families broken apart
because the parents over-reacted to children's experimentations with
sex, drugs and rock'n'roll. I saw suicides and I saw other horrors
that weren't useful or necessary, and when the parents were drinkers,
cigarette smokers or pill users, the hypocrisy only added to the tone
of the responses of all their friends and relatives.
What I have done is remind my kids about laws and safety, not
naggingly (I'd like to think), but just as I'd remind them about being
careful about the electric bill or turning their car lights on if it's
raining. But my kids never did go to school, and we've been and
stayed close all that time. They've talked to me when they were
drinking. Not all ran home and said "I smoked marijuana!" when they
did, but I know at this point that each of them has. Not all "do" in
the do-it-all-the-time way. Only one is legally old enough to drink,
but all three have, at parties.
I could have made a big deal about it. I could have grounded them. I
could have punished them. Then what?
If the situation you're asking about involves a child who was in
school for a long time, or parents who haven't been involved in
alternative ways of parenting, then the situation will be entirely
different. If it's a step-child situation with other parents
elsewhere, again it's completely different.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lyla Wolfenstein
first - take a deep breath, and *know* - really really know - that you can't control them. ALL you have to rely on, with matters of potential risk is your relationship - your connection. and overreaction, or restriction, will result in a fractured relationship and no more (and probably less) actual control over what they do in the future.
then, after you really really know that, more details about your relationship, the age, their history, etc., *would* be helpful, because it matters a lot in terms of how accessible they are to you.
i tend to talk more about the risks of the *environment* in which that stuff often happens - the people, the loss of impulse control, the legal concens, and the lack of protection. reefer madness type messages are not very effective, because they are untrue and undermine your kids' respect for you knowledge and wisdom.
i have been very honest with my kids, once they asked, about my own history and it lends validity to my suggestions and concerns, i think.
i just resurrected this article from my "archives" the other day, and it's somewhat applicable:
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1816475,00.html
warmly, lyla
MARKETPLACE
Going Green: Your Yahoo! Groups resource for green living
Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest . Unsubscribe . Terms of Use.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
then, after you really really know that, more details about your relationship, the age, their history, etc., *would* be helpful, because it matters a lot in terms of how accessible they are to you.
i tend to talk more about the risks of the *environment* in which that stuff often happens - the people, the loss of impulse control, the legal concens, and the lack of protection. reefer madness type messages are not very effective, because they are untrue and undermine your kids' respect for you knowledge and wisdom.
i have been very honest with my kids, once they asked, about my own history and it lends validity to my suggestions and concerns, i think.
i just resurrected this article from my "archives" the other day, and it's somewhat applicable:
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1816475,00.html
warmly, lyla
MARKETPLACE
Going Green: Your Yahoo! Groups resource for green living
Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest . Unsubscribe . Terms of Use.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]