Learning all the time
Karen
>>>When a family doesn't consider learning the primary goal of unschooling, thingscan disintegrate pretty quickly. YES, once you get it going kids are learning
all the time. But if a family starts with the idea that learning is happening
all the time, they might never quite get the learning part of unschooling going.
And in that case learning will NOT happen all the time. It's subtle but
crucial.<<<
Can we expand on this? What does it look like when learning isn't the primary goal? What are ways we can miss the mark of learning being the focus? It is subtle, like you mentioned, and I want to really understand the differences.
Thanks!
Karen.
Meredith
"Karen" <semajrak@...> wrote:
The examples which come to mind right away are families where a particular lifestyle is the primary goal or parents who idealize "freedom" as the primary goal. Both of those can get in the way of learning - a focus on "freedom" can lead parents to neglect to give kids enough information and feed-back. A focus on a lifestyle can lead parents to see a lot of "have tos" and kids to see a lot of arbitrary rules and limits.
---Meredith
>> Can we expand on this? What does it look like when learning isn't the primary goal?*******************
The examples which come to mind right away are families where a particular lifestyle is the primary goal or parents who idealize "freedom" as the primary goal. Both of those can get in the way of learning - a focus on "freedom" can lead parents to neglect to give kids enough information and feed-back. A focus on a lifestyle can lead parents to see a lot of "have tos" and kids to see a lot of arbitrary rules and limits.
> What are ways we can miss the mark of learning being the focus?Using expressions like "RU'ing" is a good example ;) Really, any time you find yourself thinking "is this an unschooling thing to do?" or something along those lines, its good to step back from the idea of "unschooling" and get back to the idea of learning.
---Meredith
Sandra Dodd
-=-Really, any time you find yourself thinking "is this an unschooling thing to do?" or something along those lines, its good to step back from the idea of "unschooling" and get back to the idea of learning. -=-
Yes.
I said something in a chat one day about the priority being learning, and someone seemed surprised. There is a kind of party subgroup of unschoolers and unschooling speakers who are all about what's fun. I like fun, and our house is fun, but when deciding how to arrange our lives or to spend our money, learning outranked fun. And we had both.
But in a family that will reject or object to a learning situation, for fear that it's "not unschooling," they can find themselves sorting through their opportunities and self-consciously avoiding or rejecting things that might be termed "educational."
That concerns me. It can go too far.
When people want to correct someone who says they're homeschooling and say "No, we're not," that's not worth doing. It seems too extreme to me.
When someone says unschooling or natural learning is not a method of education, while I could argue that side, and I avoid the term "education," some people go too far and say it's not about learning at all, that learning happens all the time.
Learning happens all the time if people are looking for it and accommodating and facilitating it.
If people are scoffing at it, avoiding it and laughing at it, it's not going to be happening too much in their presence.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Yes.
I said something in a chat one day about the priority being learning, and someone seemed surprised. There is a kind of party subgroup of unschoolers and unschooling speakers who are all about what's fun. I like fun, and our house is fun, but when deciding how to arrange our lives or to spend our money, learning outranked fun. And we had both.
But in a family that will reject or object to a learning situation, for fear that it's "not unschooling," they can find themselves sorting through their opportunities and self-consciously avoiding or rejecting things that might be termed "educational."
That concerns me. It can go too far.
When people want to correct someone who says they're homeschooling and say "No, we're not," that's not worth doing. It seems too extreme to me.
When someone says unschooling or natural learning is not a method of education, while I could argue that side, and I avoid the term "education," some people go too far and say it's not about learning at all, that learning happens all the time.
Learning happens all the time if people are looking for it and accommodating and facilitating it.
If people are scoffing at it, avoiding it and laughing at it, it's not going to be happening too much in their presence.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lisa Smith
>>>When a family doesn't consider learning the primary goal of unschooling, thingscan disintegrate pretty quickly. YES, once you get it going kids are learning
all the time. But if a family starts with the idea that learning is happening
all the time, they might never quite get the learning part of unschooling going.
And in that case learning will NOT happen all the time. It's subtle but
crucial.<<<
Thank you for posting this. I really needed to read it and I think I need to put it somewhere to see it often. I do find myself going there some days and I think reading this will help!
Lisa
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joy
I am glad I read this.
I am a little bit confused too.
I would like some input on if I am doing the right thing
1. I observe my kids and see what they are interested and I will try to get related information as much as I can that suits their age. For example, my son is into rock and minerals, so I got him rock sample kits which he absolutely loves, a real pickaxe which we used to dig, good panning stuff which we used to find gold nuggets. Also I got periodic table poster, element book and element iPad app. I showed him the elements and the table. I know it is beyond his age to understand all but thought it would be fun and at least I planted a seed. Plus I was super curious myself to refresh my high school chemistry.
2. He wants to learn reading mostly because some of his friends know how to read. I got some words Lego and iPad app. But it seems he still hasn't grasped phonics and he didn't want me to continue. So I backed off and wait for next time when he shows interest while I continue to help him to read.
3. Every once a while I will check iPad apps and see what is new and what will be fun. I try to introduce new things to their life.
4. Of course we travel a lot and lots of new things to do and to see.
So am I doing OK? Or I pushed too much or too little?
I do focus on fun a lot. If it is not fun to them, I switch. Should I?
I thought Unschooling was about following passion and fun. As long as we provide rich environment, learning will happen and learn all the time.
But why Focusing on fun is not priority in this discussion? I figured fun--engaging--learning.
Am I right?
Thank you
Jihong
Sent from my iPhone
I am a little bit confused too.
I would like some input on if I am doing the right thing
1. I observe my kids and see what they are interested and I will try to get related information as much as I can that suits their age. For example, my son is into rock and minerals, so I got him rock sample kits which he absolutely loves, a real pickaxe which we used to dig, good panning stuff which we used to find gold nuggets. Also I got periodic table poster, element book and element iPad app. I showed him the elements and the table. I know it is beyond his age to understand all but thought it would be fun and at least I planted a seed. Plus I was super curious myself to refresh my high school chemistry.
2. He wants to learn reading mostly because some of his friends know how to read. I got some words Lego and iPad app. But it seems he still hasn't grasped phonics and he didn't want me to continue. So I backed off and wait for next time when he shows interest while I continue to help him to read.
3. Every once a while I will check iPad apps and see what is new and what will be fun. I try to introduce new things to their life.
4. Of course we travel a lot and lots of new things to do and to see.
So am I doing OK? Or I pushed too much or too little?
I do focus on fun a lot. If it is not fun to them, I switch. Should I?
I thought Unschooling was about following passion and fun. As long as we provide rich environment, learning will happen and learn all the time.
But why Focusing on fun is not priority in this discussion? I figured fun--engaging--learning.
Am I right?
Thank you
Jihong
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 5, 2011, at 5:34 PM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
> -=-Really, any time you find yourself thinking "is this an unschooling thing to do?" or something along those lines, its good to step back from the idea of "unschooling" and get back to the idea of learning. -=-
>
> Yes.
>
> I said something in a chat one day about the priority being learning, and someone seemed surprised. There is a kind of party subgroup of unschoolers and unschooling speakers who are all about what's fun. I like fun, and our house is fun, but when deciding how to arrange our lives or to spend our money, learning outranked fun. And we had both.
>
> But in a family that will reject or object to a learning situation, for fear that it's "not unschooling," they can find themselves sorting through their opportunities and self-consciously avoiding or rejecting things that might be termed "educational."
>
> That concerns me. It can go too far.
>
> When people want to correct someone who says they're homeschooling and say "No, we're not," that's not worth doing. It seems too extreme to me.
>
> When someone says unschooling or natural learning is not a method of education, while I could argue that side, and I avoid the term "education," some people go too far and say it's not about learning at all, that learning happens all the time.
>
> Learning happens all the time if people are looking for it and accommodating and facilitating it.
>
> If people are scoffing at it, avoiding it and laughing at it, it's not going to be happening too much in their presence.
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
Pam Sorooshian
On Mon, Dec 5, 2011 at 6:06 PM, Joy <whatismyusername@...> wrote:
That's good as a goal for a birthday party, but not for parents who have
taken the responsibility for helping their children learn. We are aiming
for more than that - we are expanding our children's horizons and helping
them deepen their understanding of all kinds of things in the world.
If you're doing that and you child is having a good time, that's a good
thing. "Fun" is very often the result of being raised in a
rich-in-learning-opportunities environment. But, sometimes learning doesn't
even look like fun. Sometimes it is difficult and frustrating. But if a
child has a strong enough interest in that particular thing, they'll keep
on working at it even if it isn't "fun." When my daughter was getting close
to getting a black belt in Kung Fu, for example, it got very tough and
there is no way I'd say it was "fun." But she wanted to keep on learning as
much as she could and I didn't say, "Oh, you should quit now that it isn't
fun."
Learning IS intrinsically satisfying and so a child should feel generally
satisfied and happy if his/her life involves lots of opportunities for
learning. I think general happiness is a good gauge of whether things are
going well....but to say that our purpose is to have fun is to vastly
understate and mislead about what we're doing.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I thought Unschooling was about following passion and fun. As long as weOur goal as unschoolers isn't "have fun" - that's not ambitious enough.
> provide rich environment, learning will happen and learn all the time.
>
> But why Focusing on fun is not priority in this discussion? I figured
> fun--engaging--learning.
>
That's good as a goal for a birthday party, but not for parents who have
taken the responsibility for helping their children learn. We are aiming
for more than that - we are expanding our children's horizons and helping
them deepen their understanding of all kinds of things in the world.
If you're doing that and you child is having a good time, that's a good
thing. "Fun" is very often the result of being raised in a
rich-in-learning-opportunities environment. But, sometimes learning doesn't
even look like fun. Sometimes it is difficult and frustrating. But if a
child has a strong enough interest in that particular thing, they'll keep
on working at it even if it isn't "fun." When my daughter was getting close
to getting a black belt in Kung Fu, for example, it got very tough and
there is no way I'd say it was "fun." But she wanted to keep on learning as
much as she could and I didn't say, "Oh, you should quit now that it isn't
fun."
Learning IS intrinsically satisfying and so a child should feel generally
satisfied and happy if his/her life involves lots of opportunities for
learning. I think general happiness is a good gauge of whether things are
going well....but to say that our purpose is to have fun is to vastly
understate and mislead about what we're doing.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joy
Thank you Pam for clarifying.
I wonder if your daughter decided not to continue because it was not fun or too hard, what would you do? Respect her choice or convince her to get through it?
Thanks
Jihong
Sent from my iPhone
I wonder if your daughter decided not to continue because it was not fun or too hard, what would you do? Respect her choice or convince her to get through it?
Thanks
Jihong
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 5, 2011, at 8:40 PM, Pam Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 5, 2011 at 6:06 PM, Joy <whatismyusername@...> wrote:
>
> > I thought Unschooling was about following passion and fun. As long as we
> > provide rich environment, learning will happen and learn all the time.
> >
> > But why Focusing on fun is not priority in this discussion? I figured
> > fun--engaging--learning.
> >
>
> Our goal as unschoolers isn't "have fun" - that's not ambitious enough.
> That's good as a goal for a birthday party, but not for parents who have
> taken the responsibility for helping their children learn. We are aiming
> for more than that - we are expanding our children's horizons and helping
> them deepen their understanding of all kinds of things in the world.
>
> If you're doing that and you child is having a good time, that's a good
> thing. "Fun" is very often the result of being raised in a
> rich-in-learning-opportunities environment. But, sometimes learning doesn't
> even look like fun. Sometimes it is difficult and frustrating. But if a
> child has a strong enough interest in that particular thing, they'll keep
> on working at it even if it isn't "fun." When my daughter was getting close
> to getting a black belt in Kung Fu, for example, it got very tough and
> there is no way I'd say it was "fun." But she wanted to keep on learning as
> much as she could and I didn't say, "Oh, you should quit now that it isn't
> fun."
>
> Learning IS intrinsically satisfying and so a child should feel generally
> satisfied and happy if his/her life involves lots of opportunities for
> learning. I think general happiness is a good gauge of whether things are
> going well....but to say that our purpose is to have fun is to vastly
> understate and mislead about what we're doing.
>
> -pam
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I wonder if your daughter decided not to continue because it was not fun or too hard, what would you do? Respect her choice or convince her to get through i-=-
That's not a question anyone can answer.
It depends.
It depends on what, who, where, how, and why.
You can figure out those things on your own when you think of the principles you want to live by.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
That's not a question anyone can answer.
It depends.
It depends on what, who, where, how, and why.
You can figure out those things on your own when you think of the principles you want to live by.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=--=-I wonder if your daughter decided not to continue because it was not fun or too hard, what would you do? Respect her choice or convince her to get through i-=-
That's not a question anyone can answer.-=-
I misread.
I thought you (Jihong) were asking about YOUR daughter.
I don't think either "respect her choice" or "convince" her is right. There's coaching, persuasion, listening, comforting, and helping her reason through.
Waiting a while and watching seem to be the hard parts for some people. :-)
(Me too.)
We can't keep pulling our plants out of the dirt to see how the roots are doing. That's where the trust comes. People say "trust your kids," but I think it should be "trust learning." Trust that if the parents are providing a peaceful environment and support and attention, that the child can and will grow and learn, like a plant. If you examine and disturb and fuss and worry, the plant-child won't be able to grow solidly and in peace.
Sorry.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
That's not a question anyone can answer.-=-
I misread.
I thought you (Jihong) were asking about YOUR daughter.
I don't think either "respect her choice" or "convince" her is right. There's coaching, persuasion, listening, comforting, and helping her reason through.
Waiting a while and watching seem to be the hard parts for some people. :-)
(Me too.)
We can't keep pulling our plants out of the dirt to see how the roots are doing. That's where the trust comes. People say "trust your kids," but I think it should be "trust learning." Trust that if the parents are providing a peaceful environment and support and attention, that the child can and will grow and learn, like a plant. If you examine and disturb and fuss and worry, the plant-child won't be able to grow solidly and in peace.
Sorry.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
deedmeyer
Is it wrong that I am still confused about this? Waiting and watching has been something that I have a really hard time doing without being seriously freaked out!
I have read Sandra's Big Book of Unschooling twice and am about to indulge a third time. I thought my kids were learning all the time, but now I'm beginning to wonder if they really are. My 6 year old (at the time 7 now) learned to read all on her own and I just help her with words she has a hard time with. She loves to play computer games, not all are educational but she is happy and at peace. I am afraid that I'm not doing enough now. My 12 year old is in love with art and sketching and has been doing exclusively that, but it has involved learning new art styles, checking out library books from different artists and noticing patterns everywhere we go.
I know you don't all need a play by play, but I thought we were okay until after I read the Just Add Light and Stir email this morning. Now I'm kinda panicking. I'm going to read Sandra's book again and website and see what I can find. Any suggestions or questions anyone has that can help me figure out if I've gotten this all wrong in the past 3 years, please let me know!!
I have read Sandra's Big Book of Unschooling twice and am about to indulge a third time. I thought my kids were learning all the time, but now I'm beginning to wonder if they really are. My 6 year old (at the time 7 now) learned to read all on her own and I just help her with words she has a hard time with. She loves to play computer games, not all are educational but she is happy and at peace. I am afraid that I'm not doing enough now. My 12 year old is in love with art and sketching and has been doing exclusively that, but it has involved learning new art styles, checking out library books from different artists and noticing patterns everywhere we go.
I know you don't all need a play by play, but I thought we were okay until after I read the Just Add Light and Stir email this morning. Now I'm kinda panicking. I'm going to read Sandra's book again and website and see what I can find. Any suggestions or questions anyone has that can help me figure out if I've gotten this all wrong in the past 3 years, please let me know!!
Sandra Dodd
At Just Add Light and Stir, which is NOT for discussion, but is for daily inspiration, I quoted what I had written in another topic here.
Someone who has been on this list, and off, and on, and off, asked whether that didn't need a clarification. ("the link above" comes to this discussion)
I wrote
-------------
Clarification is being provided at the link above. :-)
But all the discussions I've been in for 20 years have been clarifications of that.
There is some very bad advice being given to newcomers by people whose own unschooling philosophy is weak, and there have been unschoolers who get a few years into something they think is unschooling, and their kids aren't learning much. Had they planned from the beginning to facilitate learning first, and have fun second, they would be in great shape.
The saddest part of my days lately is helping dismayed people who come and say "But people told me..." and they spill some bad advice out, and tell us how confused they are.
Learning happens all the time, but if children are in an environment where learning isn't valued and respected and thought about, it won't be as rich.
"Unschooling is creating an environment in which natural learning can flourish." That's been my quick definition lately, my "elevator answer." Other definitions I've saved are here:
http://sandradodd.com/unschool/definition.html
They all talk about learning.
-------------
Unschooling is NOT easy to understand. When people put their kids in a school, they drive there, sign papers, and leave the kids. They KNOW which school their kids attend, because they have papers, an address, when they show up to pick the kid up he's there (ideally).
So I think sometimes when people "transfer" their child from school to unschooling, they drive there (join a group), sign up, and think that they are now unschoolers.
Unschooling has to be built, though, and we can't even send the parts. People can buy a kit to buy a house (or have been able to in various times in the past, anyway)--used to be from Sears Robuck. There were (might still be) log cabin kits sold in Colorado--every beam, every piece of rebar, diagrams, doors and windows.
In terms of houses, unschooling happens in whatever house you're already in, with the parents you already are, and the children you've already created or gathered up. We don't supply anything but the philosophy and a ton of examples and encouragement.
Unfortunately, there are people "selling" unschooling (sometimes somewhat literally) who don't have a clue how it really works, because they themselves haven't done it for long, or haven't done it well, or haven't really done it at all. They repeat the inspiring parts of what I've written, or Joyce or someone else has written, and they think if they do what we're doing (what they think, from some distance we're doing) and "do it nicer," that they will be leaders in the field.
People come here who have learned about unschooling other places, and assuming unschooling is some sort of monolithic, elemental thing, they complain to us that the log cabin kit they think they bought elsewhere didn't make a good house.
For anyone who has read this far and is confused, I recommend these links, in this order, for grounding:
http://sandradodd.com/gradualchange
http://sandradodd.com/checklists
http://sandradodd.com/nest
Your unschooling needs to grow out of your own understanding of learning and parenting. This list, my books, my unschooling site, Just Add Light and Stir, and many other such resources by others can be used to help you build that understanding, but beware of shoddy materials and bad advice. Choose your tools individually, rather than buying a cheap kit. :-)
Sandra
Someone who has been on this list, and off, and on, and off, asked whether that didn't need a clarification. ("the link above" comes to this discussion)
I wrote
-------------
Clarification is being provided at the link above. :-)
But all the discussions I've been in for 20 years have been clarifications of that.
There is some very bad advice being given to newcomers by people whose own unschooling philosophy is weak, and there have been unschoolers who get a few years into something they think is unschooling, and their kids aren't learning much. Had they planned from the beginning to facilitate learning first, and have fun second, they would be in great shape.
The saddest part of my days lately is helping dismayed people who come and say "But people told me..." and they spill some bad advice out, and tell us how confused they are.
Learning happens all the time, but if children are in an environment where learning isn't valued and respected and thought about, it won't be as rich.
"Unschooling is creating an environment in which natural learning can flourish." That's been my quick definition lately, my "elevator answer." Other definitions I've saved are here:
http://sandradodd.com/unschool/definition.html
They all talk about learning.
-------------
Unschooling is NOT easy to understand. When people put their kids in a school, they drive there, sign papers, and leave the kids. They KNOW which school their kids attend, because they have papers, an address, when they show up to pick the kid up he's there (ideally).
So I think sometimes when people "transfer" their child from school to unschooling, they drive there (join a group), sign up, and think that they are now unschoolers.
Unschooling has to be built, though, and we can't even send the parts. People can buy a kit to buy a house (or have been able to in various times in the past, anyway)--used to be from Sears Robuck. There were (might still be) log cabin kits sold in Colorado--every beam, every piece of rebar, diagrams, doors and windows.
In terms of houses, unschooling happens in whatever house you're already in, with the parents you already are, and the children you've already created or gathered up. We don't supply anything but the philosophy and a ton of examples and encouragement.
Unfortunately, there are people "selling" unschooling (sometimes somewhat literally) who don't have a clue how it really works, because they themselves haven't done it for long, or haven't done it well, or haven't really done it at all. They repeat the inspiring parts of what I've written, or Joyce or someone else has written, and they think if they do what we're doing (what they think, from some distance we're doing) and "do it nicer," that they will be leaders in the field.
People come here who have learned about unschooling other places, and assuming unschooling is some sort of monolithic, elemental thing, they complain to us that the log cabin kit they think they bought elsewhere didn't make a good house.
For anyone who has read this far and is confused, I recommend these links, in this order, for grounding:
http://sandradodd.com/gradualchange
http://sandradodd.com/checklists
http://sandradodd.com/nest
Your unschooling needs to grow out of your own understanding of learning and parenting. This list, my books, my unschooling site, Just Add Light and Stir, and many other such resources by others can be used to help you build that understanding, but beware of shoddy materials and bad advice. Choose your tools individually, rather than buying a cheap kit. :-)
Sandra
deedmeyer
Thank you for your reponse Sandra...I love you!! :D
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> At Just Add Light and Stir, which is NOT for discussion, but is for daily inspiration, I quoted what I had written in another topic here.
>
> Someone who has been on this list, and off, and on, and off, asked whether that didn't need a clarification. ("the link above" comes to this discussion)
>
> I wrote
> -------------
>
> Clarification is being provided at the link above. :-)
>
> But all the discussions I've been in for 20 years have been clarifications of that.
>
> There is some very bad advice being given to newcomers by people whose own unschooling philosophy is weak, and there have been unschoolers who get a few years into something they think is unschooling, and their kids aren't learning much. Had they planned from the beginning to facilitate learning first, and have fun second, they would be in great shape.
>
> The saddest part of my days lately is helping dismayed people who come and say "But people told me..." and they spill some bad advice out, and tell us how confused they are.
>
> Learning happens all the time, but if children are in an environment where learning isn't valued and respected and thought about, it won't be as rich.
>
> "Unschooling is creating an environment in which natural learning can flourish." That's been my quick definition lately, my "elevator answer." Other definitions I've saved are here:
> http://sandradodd.com/unschool/definition.html
> They all talk about learning.
>
> -------------
>
> Unschooling is NOT easy to understand. When people put their kids in a school, they drive there, sign papers, and leave the kids. They KNOW which school their kids attend, because they have papers, an address, when they show up to pick the kid up he's there (ideally).
>
> So I think sometimes when people "transfer" their child from school to unschooling, they drive there (join a group), sign up, and think that they are now unschoolers.
>
> Unschooling has to be built, though, and we can't even send the parts. People can buy a kit to buy a house (or have been able to in various times in the past, anyway)--used to be from Sears Robuck. There were (might still be) log cabin kits sold in Colorado--every beam, every piece of rebar, diagrams, doors and windows.
>
> In terms of houses, unschooling happens in whatever house you're already in, with the parents you already are, and the children you've already created or gathered up. We don't supply anything but the philosophy and a ton of examples and encouragement.
>
> Unfortunately, there are people "selling" unschooling (sometimes somewhat literally) who don't have a clue how it really works, because they themselves haven't done it for long, or haven't done it well, or haven't really done it at all. They repeat the inspiring parts of what I've written, or Joyce or someone else has written, and they think if they do what we're doing (what they think, from some distance we're doing) and "do it nicer," that they will be leaders in the field.
>
> People come here who have learned about unschooling other places, and assuming unschooling is some sort of monolithic, elemental thing, they complain to us that the log cabin kit they think they bought elsewhere didn't make a good house.
>
> For anyone who has read this far and is confused, I recommend these links, in this order, for grounding:
> http://sandradodd.com/gradualchange
> http://sandradodd.com/checklists
> http://sandradodd.com/nest
>
> Your unschooling needs to grow out of your own understanding of learning and parenting. This list, my books, my unschooling site, Just Add Light and Stir, and many other such resources by others can be used to help you build that understanding, but beware of shoddy materials and bad advice. Choose your tools individually, rather than buying a cheap kit. :-)
>
> Sandra
>
Sandra Dodd
-=-Is it wrong that I am still confused about this?-=-
No, it's not wrong to wonder whether you're doing well. It's better than not even wondering!
-=- Waiting and watching has been something that I have a really hard time doing without being seriously freaked out!-=-
You're not freaking out about whether your kids are getting older, are you? You've somehow come to trust that. Are you freaking out about whether if they eat and drink they will also poop and pee? I'm being facetious, but for a good reason. Some things you just have to wait to see happen. :-)
Joyce wrote this in another thread, and it's great!:
-=-Your role isn't to set up a path for them to follow but to set up the environment for them to explore.-=-
Rippy, in the Netherlands, sent me a note on the side: -=-Do you think people may be having some confusion on the 'Learning all the time' thread with the difference between deschooling (more emphasis on fun, being relaxed, comfort) versus unschooling (emphasis on learning). Maybe that's the confusion?-=-
Yes, maybe so, and I'll address that in another post.
-=-My 6 year old (at the time 7 now) learned to read all on her own and I just help her with words she has a hard time with. She loves to play computer games, not all are educational but she is happy and at peace. I am afraid that I'm not doing enough now. -=-
Anytime you're afraid you're not doing enough, do more.
When (after waiting and watching a while) you're sure they're learning some history, some science, some language, some math, some music, some art, some interpersonal skills, some whatever-all-else) then relax again, with the new tools and awareness you developed when you were nervous the last time.
In stages, your skills and knowledge will grow.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
No, it's not wrong to wonder whether you're doing well. It's better than not even wondering!
-=- Waiting and watching has been something that I have a really hard time doing without being seriously freaked out!-=-
You're not freaking out about whether your kids are getting older, are you? You've somehow come to trust that. Are you freaking out about whether if they eat and drink they will also poop and pee? I'm being facetious, but for a good reason. Some things you just have to wait to see happen. :-)
Joyce wrote this in another thread, and it's great!:
-=-Your role isn't to set up a path for them to follow but to set up the environment for them to explore.-=-
Rippy, in the Netherlands, sent me a note on the side: -=-Do you think people may be having some confusion on the 'Learning all the time' thread with the difference between deschooling (more emphasis on fun, being relaxed, comfort) versus unschooling (emphasis on learning). Maybe that's the confusion?-=-
Yes, maybe so, and I'll address that in another post.
-=-My 6 year old (at the time 7 now) learned to read all on her own and I just help her with words she has a hard time with. She loves to play computer games, not all are educational but she is happy and at peace. I am afraid that I'm not doing enough now. -=-
Anytime you're afraid you're not doing enough, do more.
When (after waiting and watching a while) you're sure they're learning some history, some science, some language, some math, some music, some art, some interpersonal skills, some whatever-all-else) then relax again, with the new tools and awareness you developed when you were nervous the last time.
In stages, your skills and knowledge will grow.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
Rippy, in the Netherlands, sent me a note on the side:
-=-Do you think people may be having some confusion on the 'Learning all the time' thread with the difference between deschooling (more emphasis on fun, being relaxed, comfort) versus unschooling (emphasis on learning). Maybe that's the confusion?-=-
Probably that is some of the confusion. Very true.
Deschooling, for kids who have been in school, is recovery from the stress and trauma of school.
Deschooling, for parents, is time to consider the difference between lessons and learning, between teaching and facilitating. For parents, too, it can be recovery from trauma (their own as children, or theirs as parents of stressed-out children, if either is applicable), and rediscovery of playing.
When the time comes, after a few months for the kids and maybe a year or more for parents that the child is regaining a curiosity about science and history, and is willing maybe to go to a museum without feeling like it's an educational ambush, then the parent should (if things are working out well) be prepared to discuss real things in the world without doing it in a teacherly, teacherish fashion.
Deschooling should be recovery and preparation. Maybe that hasn't been emphasized enough.
I've just looked at this page again, though, and I think there's a lot of indication that after the recovery phase, learning will start to percolate.
http://sandradodd.com/deschooling
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-=-Do you think people may be having some confusion on the 'Learning all the time' thread with the difference between deschooling (more emphasis on fun, being relaxed, comfort) versus unschooling (emphasis on learning). Maybe that's the confusion?-=-
Probably that is some of the confusion. Very true.
Deschooling, for kids who have been in school, is recovery from the stress and trauma of school.
Deschooling, for parents, is time to consider the difference between lessons and learning, between teaching and facilitating. For parents, too, it can be recovery from trauma (their own as children, or theirs as parents of stressed-out children, if either is applicable), and rediscovery of playing.
When the time comes, after a few months for the kids and maybe a year or more for parents that the child is regaining a curiosity about science and history, and is willing maybe to go to a museum without feeling like it's an educational ambush, then the parent should (if things are working out well) be prepared to discuss real things in the world without doing it in a teacherly, teacherish fashion.
Deschooling should be recovery and preparation. Maybe that hasn't been emphasized enough.
I've just looked at this page again, though, and I think there's a lot of indication that after the recovery phase, learning will start to percolate.
http://sandradodd.com/deschooling
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
On the side, from mail:
********
So very confused about things here! Do you think learning and fun are separate? We do lots of fun things around here and there seems to be lots of learning.
Let me know if you would rather me take my question to the list.
*********
Definitely I'd rather have questions brought to the list than one on one, but I've brought it myself. :-)
I would ask, if we were in person, "Do you really believe I think learning and fun are separate?"
If something isn't fun, learning is very unlikely to be happening.
Just *because* something is fun doesn't mean learning is happening.
If all great learning is fun, and if kids do things they want to do in the presence and with the support of a parent who intends to provide a life in which there is a lot of learning, then parents should be consciously, constantly, mindfully creating opportunities for fun. But not simply and only for the sake of having fun.
Parents who keep their kids out of school are responsible for seeing that they learn a lot of the good things they would have learned in school. They can also avoid them learning the bad things they would have learned in school. And when it goes well, they will learn tons of useful, positive things that they would have have been presented with or tested on in school, but that will help them in their lives.
If a parent rejects all of everything that even vaguely reminds them (the parents) of school, then the parents need to deschool themselves more so that they can (themselves) care once again, or for the first time, about plants, animals, space, what's on the bottom of the ocean, what's the difference between bacteria and viruses, and what is nylon made of? If the parents don't know or care any of those things, how will they help their children discover new things and make connections?
If the parents can't help their kids learn, and don't intend to, they might as well put them in school.
If parents bring their kids home, they should be attentive to providing them such a rich environment that learning will happen, and part of that rich environment should be the presence of a parent who is interested and interesting.
Sandra
********
So very confused about things here! Do you think learning and fun are separate? We do lots of fun things around here and there seems to be lots of learning.
Let me know if you would rather me take my question to the list.
*********
Definitely I'd rather have questions brought to the list than one on one, but I've brought it myself. :-)
I would ask, if we were in person, "Do you really believe I think learning and fun are separate?"
If something isn't fun, learning is very unlikely to be happening.
Just *because* something is fun doesn't mean learning is happening.
If all great learning is fun, and if kids do things they want to do in the presence and with the support of a parent who intends to provide a life in which there is a lot of learning, then parents should be consciously, constantly, mindfully creating opportunities for fun. But not simply and only for the sake of having fun.
Parents who keep their kids out of school are responsible for seeing that they learn a lot of the good things they would have learned in school. They can also avoid them learning the bad things they would have learned in school. And when it goes well, they will learn tons of useful, positive things that they would have have been presented with or tested on in school, but that will help them in their lives.
If a parent rejects all of everything that even vaguely reminds them (the parents) of school, then the parents need to deschool themselves more so that they can (themselves) care once again, or for the first time, about plants, animals, space, what's on the bottom of the ocean, what's the difference between bacteria and viruses, and what is nylon made of? If the parents don't know or care any of those things, how will they help their children discover new things and make connections?
If the parents can't help their kids learn, and don't intend to, they might as well put them in school.
If parents bring their kids home, they should be attentive to providing them such a rich environment that learning will happen, and part of that rich environment should be the presence of a parent who is interested and interesting.
Sandra
Pam Sorooshian
>>>>
On Tue, Dec 6, 2011 at 11:42 AM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
> Anytime you're afraid you're not doing enough, do more.
>
>>>
But - just a bit more. Don't freak out and start marching the kids from
thing to thing to make sure they are learning "everything they need to
know." Doing a bit more can mean just tossing some new idea out there -
mentioning something you heard on the radio.
There are people who DO need to do more, but there are also people who do
too much and stress out their families trying to make sure that their kids
are introduced to every single thing that might possible be worthwhile.
And people sometimes hear the message intended for the other group instead
of what they really need to hear. So those doing a lot already try to do
more and those not doing enough decide to do even less.
If you think you're not doing enough, do a little something new and
different and see how that goes. If you think you're doing too much, cut
something out of your schedule and see how that goes. Gauge how things are
going by the level of engagement of your kids.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Meredith
Joy <whatismyusername@...> wrote:
Do you mean a kid who has already spent years working on a particular skill deciding not to get some kind of final certification? That's probably not a decision that's going to be made overnight, regardless - there will be complaints, maybe some decisions to miss class, maybe taking a few months off and getting back into things, maybe looking for a new teacher. And in all of that there are likely to be conversations with mom and dad and chances to weigh pros and cons of continuing versus stopping while things are still somewhat enjoyable. There Are pros and cons to both which can only be sorted out by the individuals involved.
Or maybe you mean when a child is first starting something, or maybe tries it for a year and decides "nope, I don't want to do this any more." There's not so much to talk about then - it's okay to try things and just as okay to decided "this is not for me".
---Meredith
> I wonder if your daughter decided not to continue because it was not fun or too hard, what would you do? Respect her choice or convince her to get through it?****************
Do you mean a kid who has already spent years working on a particular skill deciding not to get some kind of final certification? That's probably not a decision that's going to be made overnight, regardless - there will be complaints, maybe some decisions to miss class, maybe taking a few months off and getting back into things, maybe looking for a new teacher. And in all of that there are likely to be conversations with mom and dad and chances to weigh pros and cons of continuing versus stopping while things are still somewhat enjoyable. There Are pros and cons to both which can only be sorted out by the individuals involved.
Or maybe you mean when a child is first starting something, or maybe tries it for a year and decides "nope, I don't want to do this any more." There's not so much to talk about then - it's okay to try things and just as okay to decided "this is not for me".
---Meredith
Pam Sorooshian
>>>
On Tue, Dec 6, 2011 at 3:13 PM, Meredith <plaidpanties666@...> wrote:
> it's okay to try things and just as okay to decided "this is not for me".
>>>>
More than okay. Cool. Good. I really like Barbara Sher's book, "Refuse to
Choose" about people she calls "scanners" - people who love to do all kinds
of things, sometimes all at once, sometimes one after another.
The word "dabbler" apparently has a negative connotation to many people - I
didn't know that and was using it to mean someone who is adventurous and
interested in all kinds of things and who is willing to try things out.
I've dabbled in many things in my life! I don't regret any of them at all.
But apparently to "dabble" means, to some people, that you are fickle or
irresponsible or can't stick-to-it and make a commitment. It often comes
with a "just" in front of it - "I was just dabbling," or "He is just a
dabbler."
I think parents worry their kids will be dabblers (in the negative sense)
and that's why they have concerns about letting them quit things.
I always liked it that Girl Scouts has "Dabbler Badges" and "Try-Its." The
dabbler badges support sampling different aspects of a field - art, for
example. The Try-Its are for the younger girls and emphasize trying out
something new and different as opposed to developing expertise in some one
thing.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
chris ester
On Tue, Dec 6, 2011 at 3:27 PM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
questions that we wanted to look up, when we got near a computer or to the
library.
Many years ago, when my homeschooling efforts were being reviewed by the
local rep of the BOE, I remember detailing our research to answer the
question of whether or not Eric the Red would have ever seen or tasted a
banana. My son was 6 and my daughter 4, and we all batted around what we
would have to look up to answer the question. I thought it was a fun time
and lots of learning happened in a bunch of different areas of inquiry.
And I detailed all of this in my silly review. The reviewer was at best
unimpressed because my son didn't write a paper on it.... He was SIX!!
Never mind that he could parse out how to research a pretty complicated
question and knew (I am not sure how, TV probably) that his contention that
Eric the Red never ate a banana was a thesis. No, her problem was that he
had not written much or very well...
When I made the statement that at age 6 my son didn't need to fill out any
job apps and so writing skills could wait, she was really confused.
This illustrated the chasm between 'traditional' (or maybe mainstream)
education and what we were doing. After another couple of tries, I gave up
and went to an umbrella school. Too much energy to pacify with no reward
for it.
chris
> **We actually got to the point that we started keeping a small list of
>
> >>>>>>If a parent rejects all of everything that even vaguely reminds them
> (the parents) of school, then the parents need to deschool themselves more
> so that they can (themselves) care once again, or for the first time, about
> plants, animals, space, what's on the bottom of the ocean, what's the
> difference between bacteria and viruses, and what is nylon made of? If the
> parents don't know or care any of those things, how will they help their
> children discover new things and make connections?
>
> If the parents can't help their kids learn, and don't intend to, they
> might as well put them in school.
> If parents bring their kids home, they should be attentive to providing
> them such a rich environment that learning will happen, and part of that
> rich environment should be the presence of a parent who is interested and
> interesting.
>
> Sandra<<<<<<<<<
>
questions that we wanted to look up, when we got near a computer or to the
library.
Many years ago, when my homeschooling efforts were being reviewed by the
local rep of the BOE, I remember detailing our research to answer the
question of whether or not Eric the Red would have ever seen or tasted a
banana. My son was 6 and my daughter 4, and we all batted around what we
would have to look up to answer the question. I thought it was a fun time
and lots of learning happened in a bunch of different areas of inquiry.
And I detailed all of this in my silly review. The reviewer was at best
unimpressed because my son didn't write a paper on it.... He was SIX!!
Never mind that he could parse out how to research a pretty complicated
question and knew (I am not sure how, TV probably) that his contention that
Eric the Red never ate a banana was a thesis. No, her problem was that he
had not written much or very well...
When I made the statement that at age 6 my son didn't need to fill out any
job apps and so writing skills could wait, she was really confused.
This illustrated the chasm between 'traditional' (or maybe mainstream)
education and what we were doing. After another couple of tries, I gave up
and went to an umbrella school. Too much energy to pacify with no reward
for it.
chris
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
Sandra Dodd
-=- I remember detailing our research to answer the
question of whether or not Eric the Red would have ever seen or tasted a
banana. -=-
I've never heard of any college of education talking about cool things like that. They might TELL kids things and expect them to memorize them, things like that spices were used in the Middle Ages to hide the taste of rotting meat (which turns out to have been nonsense, but was scholarly "fact" for 100 years).
Thought was for a long time that it wasn't until very late that there were bananas in Europe, but when they did an excavation on the Thames in the late 20th century, one of the things they found was a banana peel. One. (Later it was decided it was a plantain, which makes a big difference to some people, but I can't tell why.)
A friend of mine bought the books that came out during those excavations. They had color photos, and were really expensive. I got to look at them, though. There was a folding pocket knife in strata way before "they"/experts said there had been any folding knives.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/olde-england-a-banana-republic-banana-is-discovered-1100435.html
Last summer, Julie Daniel took me touristing, and a story I heard two different times during those visits was that in Tudor days (16th Century/1500s and a bit on either end) a company would rent out a pineapple for people to use as a centerpiece for other fruits, for formal parties and receptions and such. They weren't to actually cut or eat the pineapple, because that would cost them way too much, but just use it for its looks and return it undamaged so someone else could rent it.
That's just too much for "an educator" to worry about. That's for historians and archeologists and botanists and stuff. They don't have to know those things, professional educators. And one thing school seems to be all about, and increasingly so, is not to do ANYthing you don't "have to" do, and not know anything that won't be on the test.
Sandra
question of whether or not Eric the Red would have ever seen or tasted a
banana. -=-
I've never heard of any college of education talking about cool things like that. They might TELL kids things and expect them to memorize them, things like that spices were used in the Middle Ages to hide the taste of rotting meat (which turns out to have been nonsense, but was scholarly "fact" for 100 years).
Thought was for a long time that it wasn't until very late that there were bananas in Europe, but when they did an excavation on the Thames in the late 20th century, one of the things they found was a banana peel. One. (Later it was decided it was a plantain, which makes a big difference to some people, but I can't tell why.)
A friend of mine bought the books that came out during those excavations. They had color photos, and were really expensive. I got to look at them, though. There was a folding pocket knife in strata way before "they"/experts said there had been any folding knives.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/olde-england-a-banana-republic-banana-is-discovered-1100435.html
Last summer, Julie Daniel took me touristing, and a story I heard two different times during those visits was that in Tudor days (16th Century/1500s and a bit on either end) a company would rent out a pineapple for people to use as a centerpiece for other fruits, for formal parties and receptions and such. They weren't to actually cut or eat the pineapple, because that would cost them way too much, but just use it for its looks and return it undamaged so someone else could rent it.
That's just too much for "an educator" to worry about. That's for historians and archeologists and botanists and stuff. They don't have to know those things, professional educators. And one thing school seems to be all about, and increasingly so, is not to do ANYthing you don't "have to" do, and not know anything that won't be on the test.
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
In a side e-mail (some people are shy; that's okay) someone wrote:
"Thank you for addressing this Sandra! I just realized that I have been
confusing deschooling and unschooling."
I hope people here will be willing to make a list of things you wish you had known sooner, or things you were confused about for a while and wish had been made clearer, somewhere, by someone.
And if people want to name favorite resources or pages, recordings or pamphlets that helped you understand quickly and clearly, and why they were clear, or what your favorite part of it was, let's pile all that up and it might help people who are here today or will show up next week. The site shows 17 new members this week, though some might be people changing e-mail addresses or something...
Sandra
"Thank you for addressing this Sandra! I just realized that I have been
confusing deschooling and unschooling."
I hope people here will be willing to make a list of things you wish you had known sooner, or things you were confused about for a while and wish had been made clearer, somewhere, by someone.
And if people want to name favorite resources or pages, recordings or pamphlets that helped you understand quickly and clearly, and why they were clear, or what your favorite part of it was, let's pile all that up and it might help people who are here today or will show up next week. The site shows 17 new members this week, though some might be people changing e-mail addresses or something...
Sandra
Vanessa Orsborn
I'd like some feedback on how to handle a particular aspect of my daughters anger outbursts the past couple of days. My daughter is 6 in a couple of weeks and I have a 2 1/2 yr old boy.
I've worked out the causes of the two anger rages (a phonecall that went on too long and a disagreement about need to brush hair before a museum visit) and we've done some problem solving around it. Plus there have been a few other factors which have caused the anger outbursts to be bigger/longer than normal (getting over colds and a few late nights).
I've not had too many problems dealing with her anger before, although I really have to work hard on maintaining my cool when she keeps trying to bite me.
The current issue is breaking other peoples property in anger. During tonights outburst, she smashed her brothers toy box that holds his farm animals. Two days ago she ripped all the leaves off her Dads plant and cut up her younger brothers favourite pyjamas with scissors.
My first question is- when she is in the middle of destroying the item, do I wrestle the scissors off her? Do I hold her back from the plant till she calms down? Physically restraining her doesn't feel right, but I need to protect the things?
Secondly, I told her tonight that she would have to pay to replace the PJs and toy box from her pocket money. I felt at the time that that's what happens- if you break something on purpose, you have to replace it. I didn't do this in anger or as a threat straight afterwards, but during a chat and cuddle we had afterwards.
But now I'm not so sure. It feels like I'm trying to "teach her a lesson". Which isn't right. Do I just replace the things myself? She is very very sorry afterwards, she knows what she has done is wrong. Making her her pay to replace them- is that punishment?
I'm confused ;-)
Any light you may be able to shed would be appreciated!
Vanessa
I've worked out the causes of the two anger rages (a phonecall that went on too long and a disagreement about need to brush hair before a museum visit) and we've done some problem solving around it. Plus there have been a few other factors which have caused the anger outbursts to be bigger/longer than normal (getting over colds and a few late nights).
I've not had too many problems dealing with her anger before, although I really have to work hard on maintaining my cool when she keeps trying to bite me.
The current issue is breaking other peoples property in anger. During tonights outburst, she smashed her brothers toy box that holds his farm animals. Two days ago she ripped all the leaves off her Dads plant and cut up her younger brothers favourite pyjamas with scissors.
My first question is- when she is in the middle of destroying the item, do I wrestle the scissors off her? Do I hold her back from the plant till she calms down? Physically restraining her doesn't feel right, but I need to protect the things?
Secondly, I told her tonight that she would have to pay to replace the PJs and toy box from her pocket money. I felt at the time that that's what happens- if you break something on purpose, you have to replace it. I didn't do this in anger or as a threat straight afterwards, but during a chat and cuddle we had afterwards.
But now I'm not so sure. It feels like I'm trying to "teach her a lesson". Which isn't right. Do I just replace the things myself? She is very very sorry afterwards, she knows what she has done is wrong. Making her her pay to replace them- is that punishment?
I'm confused ;-)
Any light you may be able to shed would be appreciated!
Vanessa
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
If someone comes to your house and gets mad and starts to destroy your plant or you son's pj would you just stand there and let it happen?
I would not. I would say "stop it" and if they did not I would physically stop them.
If she cut her brother;s favorite PJ's where were you?
Did she do it in front of you and you did nothing or did she do with because you were not there when she was upset ?
Prevention, presence and helping kids find ways to cope with anger and frustration when those fail.
Not punishment, shaming or teaching them a lesson.
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I would not. I would say "stop it" and if they did not I would physically stop them.
If she cut her brother;s favorite PJ's where were you?
Did she do it in front of you and you did nothing or did she do with because you were not there when she was upset ?
Prevention, presence and helping kids find ways to cope with anger and frustration when those fail.
Not punishment, shaming or teaching them a lesson.
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I felt at the time that that's what happens- if you break something on purpose, you have to replace it. I didn't do this in anger or as a threat straight afterwards, but during a chat and cuddle we had afterwards. -=-
She's six. She's too young for that.
If a six year old had scissors and time to attack something, that's her mother's fault, not hers. She wasn't being watched closely enough. Scissors were too available.
-=-My first question is- when she is in the middle of destroying the item, do I wrestle the scissors off her? Do I hold her back from the plant till she calms down? Physically restraining her doesn't feel right, but I need to protect the things?-=-
Do you really think anyone's going to tell you that you have to obligation to protect property, or that physically restraining a person is wrong?
If your neighbor attacked your husband with a bat, how would you feel about wrestling the bat away, or physically restraining the person?
What if your daughter attacked you with scissors? Would you want your husband to wrestle the scissors off her, or to restrain her?
But I think by the time the attack with a weapon comes, other things have gone wrong. Back up three or four moves and see what might have been done five, ten, twenty minutes earlier.
-=- if you break something on purpose, you have to replace it.-=-
This isn't even true of adults in the real world. If you break a window with a rock, you might be on probation, or in jail, or fined by the court for vandalism, but the business's insurance will probably replace the window.
Be very careful about "have to," even when you're just thinking.
http://sandradodd.com/haveto
-=-But now I'm not so sure. It feels like I'm trying to "teach her a lesson". Which isn't right. -=-
If by "teach her a lesson" you mean punish her so that she is afraid, that's not right.
If you mean that you might want to help her learn to consider her actions, that IS right. But I think her action followed on some of yours.
You made some decisions (we don't know what those are, but you might) that left her alone and frustrated, somehow, and (in a way) she taught YOU a lesson! Not too fun, apparently.
Don't be adversaries. Find a way to be partners.
http://sandradodd.com/partners
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
She's six. She's too young for that.
If a six year old had scissors and time to attack something, that's her mother's fault, not hers. She wasn't being watched closely enough. Scissors were too available.
-=-My first question is- when she is in the middle of destroying the item, do I wrestle the scissors off her? Do I hold her back from the plant till she calms down? Physically restraining her doesn't feel right, but I need to protect the things?-=-
Do you really think anyone's going to tell you that you have to obligation to protect property, or that physically restraining a person is wrong?
If your neighbor attacked your husband with a bat, how would you feel about wrestling the bat away, or physically restraining the person?
What if your daughter attacked you with scissors? Would you want your husband to wrestle the scissors off her, or to restrain her?
But I think by the time the attack with a weapon comes, other things have gone wrong. Back up three or four moves and see what might have been done five, ten, twenty minutes earlier.
-=- if you break something on purpose, you have to replace it.-=-
This isn't even true of adults in the real world. If you break a window with a rock, you might be on probation, or in jail, or fined by the court for vandalism, but the business's insurance will probably replace the window.
Be very careful about "have to," even when you're just thinking.
http://sandradodd.com/haveto
-=-But now I'm not so sure. It feels like I'm trying to "teach her a lesson". Which isn't right. -=-
If by "teach her a lesson" you mean punish her so that she is afraid, that's not right.
If you mean that you might want to help her learn to consider her actions, that IS right. But I think her action followed on some of yours.
You made some decisions (we don't know what those are, but you might) that left her alone and frustrated, somehow, and (in a way) she taught YOU a lesson! Not too fun, apparently.
Don't be adversaries. Find a way to be partners.
http://sandradodd.com/partners
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Vanessa Orsborn
Thank you, that's what I needed to hear. The answers were what i was expecting.
I felt like making her replace the items was right but also wrong! I was mixed between the two opposing thoughts. I'd got stuck on the thought "if I broke a friends item I would have to replace it". Now I've realised that is a "I would feel obliged to replace", not a have to.
For clarification about being present, I'm always present normally. The toy box was picked up and thrown so quickly. I was moving her brother out the room as she was throwing things. The PJ's happened when I was helping her brother on the toilet. She took then from the bedroom and ran off downstairs with them. By the time I could get down to her, it was too late. But I took the scissors and PJs off her straight away.
I've tried asking her what I can do to help her not throw things or hit people when she's angry, but she's just too young to stop herself and answer that question. It's up to me to stop her.
Vanessa
Sent from my iPhone
I felt like making her replace the items was right but also wrong! I was mixed between the two opposing thoughts. I'd got stuck on the thought "if I broke a friends item I would have to replace it". Now I've realised that is a "I would feel obliged to replace", not a have to.
For clarification about being present, I'm always present normally. The toy box was picked up and thrown so quickly. I was moving her brother out the room as she was throwing things. The PJ's happened when I was helping her brother on the toilet. She took then from the bedroom and ran off downstairs with them. By the time I could get down to her, it was too late. But I took the scissors and PJs off her straight away.
I've tried asking her what I can do to help her not throw things or hit people when she's angry, but she's just too young to stop herself and answer that question. It's up to me to stop her.
Vanessa
Sent from my iPhone
On 7 Dec 2011, at 23:10, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
> -=-I felt at the time that that's what happens- if you break something on purpose, you have to replace it. I didn't do this in anger or as a threat straight afterwards, but during a chat and cuddle we had afterwards. -=-
>
> She's six. She's too young for that.
>
> If a six year old had scissors and time to attack something, that's her mother's fault, not hers. She wasn't being watched closely enough. Scissors were too available.
>
> -=-My first question is- when she is in the middle of destroying the item, do I wrestle the scissors off her? Do I hold her back from the plant till she calms down? Physically restraining her doesn't feel right, but I need to protect the things?-=-
>
> Do you really think anyone's going to tell you that you have to obligation to protect property, or that physically restraining a person is wrong?
>
> If your neighbor attacked your husband with a bat, how would you feel about wrestling the bat away, or physically restraining the person?
>
> What if your daughter attacked you with scissors? Would you want your husband to wrestle the scissors off her, or to restrain her?
>
> But I think by the time the attack with a weapon comes, other things have gone wrong. Back up three or four moves and see what might have been done five, ten, twenty minutes earlier.
>
> -=- if you break something on purpose, you have to replace it.-=-
>
> This isn't even true of adults in the real world. If you break a window with a rock, you might be on probation, or in jail, or fined by the court for vandalism, but the business's insurance will probably replace the window.
>
> Be very careful about "have to," even when you're just thinking.
> http://sandradodd.com/haveto
>
> -=-But now I'm not so sure. It feels like I'm trying to "teach her a lesson". Which isn't right. -=-
>
> If by "teach her a lesson" you mean punish her so that she is afraid, that's not right.
> If you mean that you might want to help her learn to consider her actions, that IS right. But I think her action followed on some of yours.
>
> You made some decisions (we don't know what those are, but you might) that left her alone and frustrated, somehow, and (in a way) she taught YOU a lesson! Not too fun, apparently.
>
> Don't be adversaries. Find a way to be partners.
>
> http://sandradodd.com/partners
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
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Pam Sorooshian
On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 12:50 AM, Vanessa Orsborn <orangeness1@...>wrote:
experience for her, either, right? I'm sure she'd like to not have those
kind of raging experiences.
Why is she so angry, do you think?
(Note - I'm not asking why she is so quick to explode - she's probably just
biologically that way.)
-pam
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> I've tried asking her what I can do to help her not throw things or hitIf she knew, don't you think she'd do it? I mean, it isn't a happy
> people when she's angry, but she's just too young to stop herself and
> answer that question. It's up to me to stop her.
>>>>
experience for her, either, right? I'm sure she'd like to not have those
kind of raging experiences.
Why is she so angry, do you think?
(Note - I'm not asking why she is so quick to explode - she's probably just
biologically that way.)
-pam
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Schuyler
"For clarification about being present, I'm always present normally"
Being present is often more than just being there. Being present is about history and experience and knowledge coming to play over the course of a morning that make that moment less likely to happen. Being present is about having fed and cuddled and chatted and played and been a part of all those moments that led up to the moment where a toy box had the potential to be broken. Being present is about being mindful as well. It is about knowing this other person well enough from prior moments of engagement to know that if certain conditions aren't met things this person is likely to get upset, to get tearful, to get angry. And those conditions can change more rapidly than you are aware of as she is moving through the huge physical and emotional and mental development that children move through. So you have to track her needs well. And even with all of that, even with all of your awareness, all of your attention, she will still get upset. Whether or not
something gets broken or cut up into pieces, she will still cry and yell and rage. It helps to learn to not take it personally, while also trying to do more of what you can do to make life a smooth road for her. It helps not to resent her for being angry, being upset, being reactive. No matter how much that goes with your own nature.
You have to be more than normally present. You have to be extraordinarily present.
Schuyler
________________________________
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Being present is often more than just being there. Being present is about history and experience and knowledge coming to play over the course of a morning that make that moment less likely to happen. Being present is about having fed and cuddled and chatted and played and been a part of all those moments that led up to the moment where a toy box had the potential to be broken. Being present is about being mindful as well. It is about knowing this other person well enough from prior moments of engagement to know that if certain conditions aren't met things this person is likely to get upset, to get tearful, to get angry. And those conditions can change more rapidly than you are aware of as she is moving through the huge physical and emotional and mental development that children move through. So you have to track her needs well. And even with all of that, even with all of your awareness, all of your attention, she will still get upset. Whether or not
something gets broken or cut up into pieces, she will still cry and yell and rage. It helps to learn to not take it personally, while also trying to do more of what you can do to make life a smooth road for her. It helps not to resent her for being angry, being upset, being reactive. No matter how much that goes with your own nature.
You have to be more than normally present. You have to be extraordinarily present.
Schuyler
________________________________
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Sandra Dodd
-=-I've tried asking her what I can do to help her not throw things or hit people when she's angry, but she's just too young to stop herself and answer that question. It's up to me to stop her.-=-
She gets older every day.
Try to help find ways for her not to be angry.
Play games about angry and calm, maybe, sometime when you have leisure to do that, in a soft place. Maybe talk about adrenaline (maybe not using that term). Marty described it, when he was little:
**********************
I was mad. What do you guys think I should have done?"
Marty said, "I know what to do, mom, when it�s in your arms and in your legs." Marty was, at the age of three, describing an angry rush of adrenaline.
"What?"
"Just breathe. Breathe deep breaths." That was the trick I had taught the kids, something I learned when I learned meditation. Oxygen will calm someone down.
**********************
I wrote that down when it happened, and wrote something about it later. I had gotten tired and cranky and overwhelmed and swatted Marty on the leg. People learn to find better ways gradually, and from wanting to find better ways.
But waiting until the kids are that angry and figuring out how to stop them isn't as good as backing up a few steps and figuring out how to avoid the anger stage. I got better at not getting angry myself, but still, sometimes (of course) I get frustrated. It's been a long time since I blamed others for "making me angry," though. I came to realize it was my reaction, and often it was because of other stresses, or hunger, or lack of sleep, or distraction about other problems.
People say "forgive yourself and move on." That's good advice if "moving on" is moving toward a better choice the next time. It's not good advice when it means "sweep it under the rug; don't feel bad about anything you do."
There are some ideas for gradually moving toward having a more peaceful family in here, and in the sound file at the bottom.
http://sandradodd.com/parentingpeacefully
Sandra
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She gets older every day.
Try to help find ways for her not to be angry.
Play games about angry and calm, maybe, sometime when you have leisure to do that, in a soft place. Maybe talk about adrenaline (maybe not using that term). Marty described it, when he was little:
**********************
I was mad. What do you guys think I should have done?"
Marty said, "I know what to do, mom, when it�s in your arms and in your legs." Marty was, at the age of three, describing an angry rush of adrenaline.
"What?"
"Just breathe. Breathe deep breaths." That was the trick I had taught the kids, something I learned when I learned meditation. Oxygen will calm someone down.
**********************
I wrote that down when it happened, and wrote something about it later. I had gotten tired and cranky and overwhelmed and swatted Marty on the leg. People learn to find better ways gradually, and from wanting to find better ways.
But waiting until the kids are that angry and figuring out how to stop them isn't as good as backing up a few steps and figuring out how to avoid the anger stage. I got better at not getting angry myself, but still, sometimes (of course) I get frustrated. It's been a long time since I blamed others for "making me angry," though. I came to realize it was my reaction, and often it was because of other stresses, or hunger, or lack of sleep, or distraction about other problems.
People say "forgive yourself and move on." That's good advice if "moving on" is moving toward a better choice the next time. It's not good advice when it means "sweep it under the rug; don't feel bad about anything you do."
There are some ideas for gradually moving toward having a more peaceful family in here, and in the sound file at the bottom.
http://sandradodd.com/parentingpeacefully
Sandra
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Vanessa Orsborn
I agree Schuyler. And I know she is struggling at the moment. I have changed our days, cancelled most things. Not spent any time away (I usually go to the gym a few times a week).
But the boy needed a poo ;-)
And my sister had an upsetting emergency. Even though the call was 4 mins long, it was still too long for her.
Sometimes there are things that happen in life that you can't prevent.
I think I handle her emotional outbursts very well normally. And we havent had any for a while... But with her brothers illness and clingyness, it has been too much for her. Understandably.
I just haven't had to deal with breaking property before so that challenged my thinking a bit!
Thanks
Vanessa
Sent from my iPhone
But the boy needed a poo ;-)
And my sister had an upsetting emergency. Even though the call was 4 mins long, it was still too long for her.
Sometimes there are things that happen in life that you can't prevent.
I think I handle her emotional outbursts very well normally. And we havent had any for a while... But with her brothers illness and clingyness, it has been too much for her. Understandably.
I just haven't had to deal with breaking property before so that challenged my thinking a bit!
Thanks
Vanessa
Sent from my iPhone
On 8 Dec 2011, at 12:17, Schuyler <s.waynforth@...> wrote:
> "For clarification about being present, I'm always present normally"
>
> Being present is often more than just being there. Being present is about history and experience and knowledge coming to play over the course of a morning that make that moment less likely to happen. Being present is about having fed and cuddled and chatted and played and been a part of all those moments that led up to the moment where a toy box had the potential to be broken. Being present is about being mindful as well. It is about knowing this other person well enough from prior moments of engagement to know that if certain conditions aren't met things this person is likely to get upset, to get tearful, to get angry. And those conditions can change more rapidly than you are aware of as she is moving through the huge physical and emotional and mental development that children move through. So you have to track her needs well. And even with all of that, even with all of your awareness, all of your attention, she will still get upset. Whether or not
> something gets broken or cut up into pieces, she will still cry and yell and rage. It helps to learn to not take it personally, while also trying to do more of what you can do to make life a smooth road for her. It helps not to resent her for being angry, being upset, being reactive. No matter how much that goes with your own nature.
>
> You have to be more than normally present. You have to be extraordinarily present.
>
> Schuyler
>
> ________________________________
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
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