LydiaK

My daugher, Nisa, is four, and my son, Shaiah, is two. Right now we are visiting my mom and dad for Thanksgiving. I am trying to figure out how to balance giving my kids choices and helping my parents be comfortable with my kids. I remind the kids before we come visit that their grandparents like for them to wear clothes and underwear and diapers while we are here. I also encourage my son to wear boys clothes when we visit b/c my parents are uncomfortable with him wearing dresses. At home they are often naked or dressing up in many different clothing combinations. A lot of times I have let my daughter go out with some unusual outfit that she put together, as long as it is seasonally appropriate (or I will bring sweaters, pants, etc. if I think she might get chilly).

This morning my folks wanted to take us out for breakfast and I tried to find Nisa something appropriate to wear. I let her choose among the clothes I'd packed for her. She didn't want to wear those clothes, she wanted to wear a toddler jumpsuit she'd found and has been wearing the past couple days since we've been here. I let her wear it with a peair of pants but my mom didn't want her to wear it and told her to pick something else. She took a long time trying to choose, and none of her choices were appropriate. I told my parents they should go ahead without her since she couldn't pick something to wear. She kept insisting that she be allowed to wear one dress on top of another dress, which did look kind of silly. My mother tried to discourage her, and my husband jumped in and told her she could wear what she wanted to wear. They all went out to breakfast, but I know my parents were not happy about how my daughter looked.

I should mention, my mother is very picky about appearances and looking nice in public. She and my dad are very well known in the community as well. I am trying to help my kids behave in ways that will improve their relationship with their grandparents, whom they enjoy spending time with. I know that my parents have some issues with some of the things my kids do or get to choose. They pretty much think my kids are spoiled and my dad especially has a hard time being with them because they don't obey him the way he is used to. They both used to spank me and my sister as kids, and they are used to the kind of obedience you get from spanking.

My husband, on the other hand, does not care much about appearances and social norms. He went to breakfast this morning without showering, in the clothes he wore yesterday. He did brush his teeth and wash his face. I don't really care when he does these things, but my parents have complained before about him being smelly and have asked him to wear deodorant when he is here, which he refuses to do.

I know my daughter is upset with me this morning, and has been kind of upset with me most of the time we've been here because I've been chasing her around trying to get her underwear on and making sure she is appropriate when we are here. She did not want to do what was expected of her to go to breakfast (brush her hair, change into different clothes) and was very upset when I suggested she just not go. Some days I am very good at helping her do these kinds of things without a problem, and other days, like today, I am not as nice as I usually am. I think I feel a lot of pressure to get her to do certain things while we are here, and the stress makes me less kind.

My parents do not like how my kids talk to us (they can be pretty demanding, although they usually will rephrase a demand if I suggest they ask me more nicely next time), don't like that they whine and cry about little things frequently (not sure how to help the kids with this but I see it as a problem too), and don't like that they don't listen and obey right away. I would like to find ways to help them not only for my parents but for myself in some of these areas.

I think the problem is one I've created of giving my kids too much choice in the beginning, not looking enough at the particulars of the situation; and now my kids, especially my daughter, expect to always have things exactly how they want, without regard to others. This could be more because they are so young, but I think my behavior has also contributed. I am looking for help on how to deal with this situation better next time, and also how to generally shift away from them feeling entitled to whatever they want without regard for others. What kinds of suggestions can I give my kids that they would be more willing to hear? Maybe my tone of voice is the problem, as I feel I am bullying them rather than offering choices when I tell my daughter she can either wear the dresses I've picked for her or not go. I also feel that I should be working harder to convince her to go because it would mean a lot to her grandparents, rather than giving her the choice not to go if she doesn't want to wear the right clothes.

Thanks a lot, and happy 10th anniversary (yesterday) to the list!

Lydia Koltai

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

I would have special outfits and dresses that your daughter helped pick up to visit grandparents.
My daughter Gigi loves princess dresses so I go to Goodwill on Thursdays ( here kids stuff is 50% off on Thursdays) and I buy frilly, fancy dresses for $2 or $3 , sometimes less.
Its is like dressing up for her and still special. She can wear those at parties, park or even the barn at out farm since they cost so little.

Just yesterday my son took a bath to wash his hair so we could go to thanksgiving lunch with the family. He used to be able to go a month without washing his hair and it look just nice but now his hair gets only in about 3 days.

Living in the farm the kids can get really dirty and smell like cow manure. It does not bother me or my husband Brian but if we are going to 
someones home we do talk about how we need to not smell like that. 

Plus I explained to my kids that people can think I am not taking care of them if they are looking dirty and unkempt. 

We have plenty of times we are dirty here in the farm and that is OK but some places we need to look clean and dress appropriately.


I remember when my son was 2 and he only like 3 shirts he had that were Bob the Builder shirts and he would wear then everyday for days. I made sure one was clean so he could have one. I also got him Bob The Builder shoes so he would wear shoes to go out.
I always worked hard to get them things that they loved to wear.
My son was very sensitive so only like sweat pants. He had a few PJs that he even wore for the park and that was OK with me.
I had plenty of soft, no labels clothes for him and went to a special shoe store to get him tennis shoes and socks that did not bother him.

At nine now he wears pretty much anything. He even likes jeans now. Yesterday he was dressed up exactly like daddy and even was wearing daddy;s running socks that he loves to borrow and daddy loves to lend him. They looked so cute.

So all this to say that you may want to be ready next time with clothes the kids  will wear and parents will approve. Go shopping with the kids for them. 
Be prepared. Make it special and fun.

Alex Polikowsky


 
Alex Polikowsky
 
 
 


________________________________
From: LydiaK <princessjasmine05@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 9:35 AM
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] helping little ones navigate social norms


 
My daugher, Nisa, is four, and my son, Shaiah, is two. Right now we are visiting my mom and dad for Thanksgiving. I am trying to figure out how to balance giving my kids choices and helping my parents be comfortable with my kids. I remind the kids before we come visit that their grandparents like for them to wear clothes and underwear and diapers while we are here. I also encourage my son to wear boys clothes when we visit b/c my parents are uncomfortable with him wearing dresses. At home they are often naked or dressing up in many different clothing combinations. A lot of times I have let my daughter go out with some unusual outfit that she put together, as long as it is seasonally appropriate (or I will bring sweaters, pants, etc. if I think she might get chilly).

This morning my folks wanted to take us out for breakfast and I tried to find Nisa something appropriate to wear. I let her choose among the clothes I'd packed for her. She didn't want to wear those clothes, she wanted to wear a toddler jumpsuit she'd found and has been wearing the past couple days since we've been here. I let her wear it with a peair of pants but my mom didn't want her to wear it and told her to pick something else. She took a long time trying to choose, and none of her choices were appropriate. I told my parents they should go ahead without her since she couldn't pick something to wear. She kept insisting that she be allowed to wear one dress on top of another dress, which did look kind of silly. My mother tried to discourage her, and my husband jumped in and told her she could wear what she wanted to wear. They all went out to breakfast, but I know my parents were not happy about how my daughter looked.

I should mention, my mother is very picky about appearances and looking nice in public. She and my dad are very well known in the community as well. I am trying to help my kids behave in ways that will improve their relationship with their grandparents, whom they enjoy spending time with. I know that my parents have some issues with some of the things my kids do or get to choose. They pretty much think my kids are spoiled and my dad especially has a hard time being with them because they don't obey him the way he is used to. They both used to spank me and my sister as kids, and they are used to the kind of obedience you get from spanking.

My husband, on the other hand, does not care much about appearances and social norms. He went to breakfast this morning without showering, in the clothes he wore yesterday. He did brush his teeth and wash his face. I don't really care when he does these things, but my parents have complained before about him being smelly and have asked him to wear deodorant when he is here, which he refuses to do.

I know my daughter is upset with me this morning, and has been kind of upset with me most of the time we've been here because I've been chasing her around trying to get her underwear on and making sure she is appropriate when we are here. She did not want to do what was expected of her to go to breakfast (brush her hair, change into different clothes) and was very upset when I suggested she just not go. Some days I am very good at helping her do these kinds of things without a problem, and other days, like today, I am not as nice as I usually am. I think I feel a lot of pressure to get her to do certain things while we are here, and the stress makes me less kind.

My parents do not like how my kids talk to us (they can be pretty demanding, although they usually will rephrase a demand if I suggest they ask me more nicely next time), don't like that they whine and cry about little things frequently (not sure how to help the kids with this but I see it as a problem too), and don't like that they don't listen and obey right away. I would like to find ways to help them not only for my parents but for myself in some of these areas.

I think the problem is one I've created of giving my kids too much choice in the beginning, not looking enough at the particulars of the situation; and now my kids, especially my daughter, expect to always have things exactly how they want, without regard to others. This could be more because they are so young, but I think my behavior has also contributed. I am looking for help on how to deal with this situation better next time, and also how to generally shift away from them feeling entitled to whatever they want without regard for others. What kinds of suggestions can I give my kids that they would be more willing to hear? Maybe my tone of voice is the problem, as I feel I am bullying them rather than offering choices when I tell my daughter she can either wear the dresses I've picked for her or not go. I also feel that I should be working harder to convince her to go because it would mean a lot to her grandparents, rather than giving her the
choice not to go if she doesn't want to wear the right clothes.

Thanks a lot, and happy 10th anniversary (yesterday) to the list!

Lydia Koltai




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-Plus I explained to my kids that people can think I am not taking care of them if they are looking dirty and unkempt. -=-

I used to remind my kids of that, too. I had a moral and legal obligation to clothe them appropriately, and I didn't have the option to ignore that. I could give them lots of choices, but within the bounds of what was appropriate to the situation and the weather and the laws.

When a family starts talking about "ultimate" freedom or total freedom, or any of that, they just haven't thought about it very clearly.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Meredith

"LydiaK" <princessjasmine05@...> wrote:
>
> My daugher, Nisa, is four, and my son, Shaiah, is two. Right now we are visiting my mom and dad for Thanksgiving. I am trying to figure out how to balance giving my kids choices and helping my parents be comfortable with my kids.
****************

While they're little, it may be easier to stay somewhere other than grandparents' house. We did that when Mo was little, even though George's mom is really very easy-going and undemanding because her house was impossible to child-proof for any kind of short stay. She hadn't had a toddler in almost thirty years! So it was easier to stay elsewhere than spend a week keeping my busy climbing wonder-child out of alllllll grandma's books and knick-knacks and art and liquor and assorted hoo-haa. Grandma has a Wonderful house to visit with an 8yo - a marvelous museum house! but not such a good fit for a little kid.

It helps to keep in mind that your parents haven't had toddlers in years, maybe decades. They don't remember how much work it can be to get kids dressed and fed and keep them dressed and presentable. They don't remember how much work it is to remind kids over and over to be pleasant and sweet and say "thank you" and "yes sir" - they've forgotten, if they ever knew.

And maybe you weren't the handful your kids are! Some kids are more high-energy and strong willed than others, and its shocking to people who didn't have such intense kids of their own - and they think its a parenting difference, not thinking about the fact that plenty of "problem children" come from high-discipline homes. I'm not saying to let your kids run wild and say "it's who they are", I'm saying your mom's expectations sound totally unreasonable for a pair of high-energy toddlers.

>> I remind the kids before we come visit that their grandparents like for them to wear clothes and underwear and diapers while we are here.
*****************

And since they're 4 and 2, that reminder doesn't last very long. You can expect to remind them a dozen times a day while you're visiting - this is Grandma's house, and things are different here, I'm sorry. That may make visiting very stressful for a few years - and maybe not worth the hassle if it leads to kids not liking their grandparents when waiting a couple years would solve a lot of issues.

It could be better to stay in a hotel or with friends and meet in "neutral territory" - family buffet style restaurants, but also places like playgrounds where the kids can be expected to be dressed more casually, and expected to get dirty, but it's also the sort of place your Kids will expect to wear clothing... since I assume you don't take them to the playground in the buff most of the time.

> My husband, on the other hand, does not care much about appearances and social norms. He went to breakfast this morning without showering, in the clothes he wore yesterday.
****************

Maybe you can tell your mom "they're their father's child" in some light, gentle way. Maybe not if it could get ugly. But its something to think about when you're pushing and pushing and pushing against your mom. She's likely pushing your kids harder because their dad isn't going to toe the line - and He's likely to be more resistant at the same time so the kids are caught in the middle. Ouch.

> My parents do not like how my kids talk to us (they can be pretty demanding, although they usually will rephrase a demand if I suggest they ask me more nicely next time), don't like that they whine and cry about little things frequently (not sure how to help the kids with this but I see it as a problem too), and don't like that they don't listen and obey right away. I would like to find ways to help them not only for my parents but for myself in some of these areas.
**************

They're 4 and 2. Courtesy is important, but at 4 and 2, they depend on you to do the social smoothing for them. You say please and thank you, say what they will eventually say for themselves and don't make a fuss about it. As they get older, that's something to talk about more, but a 4yo can't be counted on to use what social graces she has under any kind of stress at all - and being out of her own home is Lots of stress! If that's not enough for your mom, then visits need to be short so everyone's not miserable - that's another kind of courtesy, knowing when to stay home and not impose yourself on others.

>>don't like that they whine and cry about little things frequently (not sure how to help the kids with this but I see it as a problem too)
**************

That's kind of a different topic, but if they're whining and crying you're not giving them prompt enough attention. And if you're tied up with visiting relatives, its going to be hard for you to give them prompt enough attention while also visiting. Can you and your husband trade off with looking after the kids while the other visits? Sometimes that works, but it could be better to curtail visits for awhile until the kids are less needy.

FWIW, kids who are spanked whine and cry, too - that's not a "discipline" issue its a "child needs attention" issue. Kids do what Works to get your attention whether its whine or "get in trouble" - and while its true you can beat them out of whining if you hit hard enough and long enough, they'll Still find ways to get your attention, even if that attention is in the form of another beating.

> I think the problem is one I've created of giving my kids too much choice in the beginning, not looking enough at the particulars of the situation; and now my kids, especially my daughter, expect to always have things exactly how they want, without regard to others.
****************

She's 4 - it's perfectly normal for a 4yo to want exactly what she wants when she wants it and be hugely disappointed when that's not what happens. It's part of being little for a whoooole lot of kids. Maybe you weren't that emotional as a child so you can't relate, but it's not out of the ordinary. It's perfectly normal for anyone of any age to have little regard for others' feelings if their needs aren't being met well enough - it's a big shopping day in the US, today, and I guarantee you there will be plenty of adults acting like 4yos when some sale item sells out before they get to it! Including adults who were "raised right".

I think you've let your mom's criticism get too far under your skin. Yes, look for ways to help your kids get along with your mom, but consider that her expectations may be Vastly too high for a 4yo, much less a 2yo. It may be better to keep contact to "safe" situations where your kids can be kids for a few years, so that they have a chance to like your parents and not resent them.

>>Maybe my tone of voice is the problem, as I feel I am bullying them rather than offering choices when I tell my daughter she can either wear the dresses I've picked for her or not go.
********************

If you're concerned your tone is bullying, it probably is. If you're concerned you're bullying your child, it's time (past time) to look for a completely different way of approaching the situation. Maybe decide it's okay that she not go and you don't need to make an issue of it. Maybe it would be better to stand up to your mother in some way, say "Oh, mom, you're not going to be kicked out of society because of what a 4yo is wearing" and put your daughter in the car. Maybe stand up to mom and say "have a good time! this isn't going to work today, sorry!" and smile and put on a dvd. Maybe put on some fairy wings and a tiara so mom has something Else to seethe about ;)

Don't set your kids up to bear the brunt of your parents' displeasure, set them up to like their grandparents as much as possible - it may not be possible for them to like their grandparents, but do what you can to help them have an okay relationship. If grandma can't like them until they're properly behaved, don't set everyone up to fail.

---Meredith

Liz M

I am very picky about how my children and grandchildren appear in public. I have children ages from the 30s to 16. I also have 4 grandsons. There are socials norms and if they don't learn to adhere to those early in life they will have a lot of problems later in life. I always wanted my children to be accepted and not feel rejected by their peers and others because of my lack of training. My concern would be if they can't accept their grandparents requests whom they are to respect, they will reject other norms which will make for a very miserable life later.

This is just my opinion based on my experience and you can take it for what I am charging you (which is nothing, LOL) but a 4 year old and a 2 year old should not be allowed to choose much of anything (except maybe between toys) because they don't have the ability at those ages to make good choices. To give them a choice puts too much responsibility on them at too young of an age. They have no idea what consequence their choices make, so in my opinion until they can accept the consequences for a poor choice most need to be made for them. That is what a parent does is make choices for kids until they can weigh the consequences of a poor choice. To do otherwise is a burden on them as children.

As for the whining and the ugly talke that is easily stopped. Just say no to a request and walk away. If they talk ugly tell them that is not acceptable if they will have to go to time out. If they continue you don't have to spank them, put them in a time out place. Use the same place each time and walk away. It will take time to stop their bad behaviors but better now than later. If they go to school, daycare or any other social setting they will be fighting the system all the time and most likely be considered mentally slow or to have ODD because socially acceptable behaviors are one of the criteria. Many kids are labeled OCD and ADHD not because they are but because their parents did not teach them socially acceptable behaviors as young children and the kids pay the price by having to take drugs and be labeled their whole life.

I don't mean this to sound offensive but IMO your husband is not being a good role model for these children. By not taking into account how your parents feel about his lack of cleanliness and clean attire to go out to eat is he is saying that no one matters but him. That is a very narcissistic attitude which if they pick up will cause them trouble all their lives. I don't like all the rules society has but I abide them because to do otherwise would make me miserable. You can't have a good career if you won't follow the rules. People are not going to hire someone who stinks or has a rebel attitude. That might be appropriate as a 13 year old but is very damaging to an adult.

I doubt this will help much, but IMO, you as the mother are responsible for the proper upbringing of these children and if the Dept. of Human Services is ever called about them, you stand to lose them if they don't have respect for adults and act ODD. That is one of the criteria they look for when evaluating if a child should be left in a home.



To: [email protected]
From: princessjasmine05@...
Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2011 15:35:44 +0000
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] helping little ones navigate social norms




























My daugher, Nisa, is four, and my son, Shaiah, is two. Right now we are visiting my mom and dad for Thanksgiving. I am trying to figure out how to balance giving my kids choices and helping my parents be comfortable with my kids. I remind the kids before we come visit that their grandparents like for them to wear clothes and underwear and diapers while we are here. I also encourage my son to wear boys clothes when we visit b/c my parents are uncomfortable with him wearing dresses. At home they are often naked or dressing up in many different clothing combinations. A lot of times I have let my daughter go out with some unusual outfit that she put together, as long as it is seasonally appropriate (or I will bring sweaters, pants, etc. if I think she might get chilly).



This morning my folks wanted to take us out for breakfast and I tried to find Nisa something appropriate to wear. I let her choose among the clothes I'd packed for her. She didn't want to wear those clothes, she wanted to wear a toddler jumpsuit she'd found and has been wearing the past couple days since we've been here. I let her wear it with a peair of pants but my mom didn't want her to wear it and told her to pick something else. She took a long time trying to choose, and none of her choices were appropriate. I told my parents they should go ahead without her since she couldn't pick something to wear. She kept insisting that she be allowed to wear one dress on top of another dress, which did look kind of silly. My mother tried to discourage her, and my husband jumped in and told her she could wear what she wanted to wear. They all went out to breakfast, but I know my parents were not happy about how my daughter looked.



I should mention, my mother is very picky about appearances and looking nice in public. She and my dad are very well known in the community as well. I am trying to help my kids behave in ways that will improve their relationship with their grandparents, whom they enjoy spending time with. I know that my parents have some issues with some of the things my kids do or get to choose. They pretty much think my kids are spoiled and my dad especially has a hard time being with them because they don't obey him the way he is used to. They both used to spank me and my sister as kids, and they are used to the kind of obedience you get from spanking.



My husband, on the other hand, does not care much about appearances and social norms. He went to breakfast this morning without showering, in the clothes he wore yesterday. He did brush his teeth and wash his face. I don't really care when he does these things, but my parents have complained before about him being smelly and have asked him to wear deodorant when he is here, which he refuses to do.



I know my daughter is upset with me this morning, and has been kind of upset with me most of the time we've been here because I've been chasing her around trying to get her underwear on and making sure she is appropriate when we are here. She did not want to do what was expected of her to go to breakfast (brush her hair, change into different clothes) and was very upset when I suggested she just not go. Some days I am very good at helping her do these kinds of things without a problem, and other days, like today, I am not as nice as I usually am. I think I feel a lot of pressure to get her to do certain things while we are here, and the stress makes me less kind.



My parents do not like how my kids talk to us (they can be pretty demanding, although they usually will rephrase a demand if I suggest they ask me more nicely next time), don't like that they whine and cry about little things frequently (not sure how to help the kids with this but I see it as a problem too), and don't like that they don't listen and obey right away. I would like to find ways to help them not only for my parents but for myself in some of these areas.



I think the problem is one I've created of giving my kids too much choice in the beginning, not looking enough at the particulars of the situation; and now my kids, especially my daughter, expect to always have things exactly how they want, without regard to others. This could be more because they are so young, but I think my behavior has also contributed. I am looking for help on how to deal with this situation better next time, and also how to generally shift away from them feeling entitled to whatever they want without regard for others. What kinds of suggestions can I give my kids that they would be more willing to hear? Maybe my tone of voice is the problem, as I feel I am bullying them rather than offering choices when I tell my daughter she can either wear the dresses I've picked for her or not go. I also feel that I should be working harder to convince her to go because it would mean a lot to her grandparents, rather than giving her the choice not to go if she doesn't want to wear the right clothes.



Thanks a lot, and happy 10th anniversary (yesterday) to the list!



Lydia Koltai


















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

I sincerely apologize to Liz and the list for letting this post through.

I started going through it line by line, but practically every single
idea is presented from the point of view of the Right molding the Wrong.

That type of advice can be found on any parenting site. It "works" for
some personalities, eg, stops "bad" behavior. But the exact same
advice, when tried on kids with different personalities -- like kids
with very strong wills -- can backfire and damage relationships

People come here to see what solutions look like when adults partner
with the child to be the child's coach, mentor, guide, protector as
the child builds an understanding of how the world works. They come
here to see a different, very specific approach.

With that approach, the kids can be coached on what's expected of them
in an upcoming situation. And it's assume the kids don't want to hurt
others, themselves, or things. But if they can't behave as expected,
even with help, it's not because they're bad kids (or poorly trained).
It's because they aren't ready for the situation. And mom should get
them out of there or be with the kids, doing for the kids what they
aren't yet able to do.

> a 4 year old and a 2 year old should not be allowed to choose much
> of anything


There are definitely choices a 2 and 4 yo shouldn't be making and
don't want to make.

If the goal is for them to make the "right" choices, eg, the choices
mom believes are right, then they aren't going to be very good at it
at 2 and 4.

BUT if the goal is for them to make thoughtful decisions -- as it is
with unschooling -- then the more experience they have in making
choices, then the more thought-full they become. At first their
choices will be based on feelings and limited knowledge. But as they
explore the good points and not so good points of the outcome of their
choices, they'll build an understanding of why some choices are better
than others. They become more filled with thoughts.

> As for the whining and the ugly talke that is easily stopped


Rather than seeing the child as bad in need of punishment -- and
ignoring is a form of punishment -- it helps to see all behavior as
communication. For whining feedback and keeping things light help. A
simple "Whining's hard to understand. If you can speak calmly I can
help you better." If a child is talking ugly, there's something deeper
going on. Maybe tired, overwhelmed. Or maybe there's something in how
the parent is treating the child that makes him want to lash back.

> It will take time to stop their bad behaviors


It make it hard to help kids do better if they're seen as deliberately
ignoring good behavior and instead choosing bad behavior.

It helps the relationship greatly to assume they're doing the best
they can and need help to do better. Not correction. Not punishment.
Help.

I know even as an adult that if someone assumes I've made a choice or
mistake out of bad intent, I really don't feel like doing better for
someone who thinks so poorly of me. On the other hand, if someone
assumes I made and honest mistake or just don't know how to do
something, and they're willing to help, I'm very willing to try to do
better.

And kids feel the same. They're not aliens. They're humans too and
react emotionally to poor treatment the way adults do.

> By not taking into account how your parents feel about his lack of
> cleanliness and clean attire to go out to eat is he is saying that
> no one matters but him.


Kids who are made to set aside their wants and needs for adults often
do, when they feel powerful enough, decide to fight back and not care
about others but themselves.

If kids are helped to find ways to meet their needs that are
respectful, safe and doable, then they grow up in an atmosphere where
everyone's needs are important. They don't feel like their needs are
in competition with others. They haven't been given a reason to not
care about others.

Joyce


On Nov 25, 2011, at 8:10 PM, Liz M wrote:

> I am very picky about how my children and grandchildren appear in
> public. I have children ages from the 30s to 16. I also have 4
> grandsons. There are socials norms and if they don't learn to adhere
> to those early in life they will have a lot of problems later in
> life. I always wanted my children to be accepted and not feel
> rejected by their peers and others because of my lack of training.
> My concern would be if they can't accept their grandparents requests
> whom they are to respect, they will reject other norms which will
> make for a very miserable life later.
>
> This is just my opinion based on my experience and you can take it
> for what I am charging you (which is nothing, LOL) but a 4 year old
> and a 2 year old should not be allowed to choose much of anything
> (except maybe between toys) because they don't have the ability at
> those ages to make good choices. To give them a choice puts too much
> responsibility on them at too young of an age. They have no idea
> what consequence their choices make, so in my opinion until they can
> accept the consequences for a poor choice most need to be made for
> them. That is what a parent does is make choices for kids until they
> can weigh the consequences of a poor choice. To do otherwise is a
> burden on them as children.
>
> As for the whining and the ugly talke that is easily stopped. Just
> say no to a request and walk away. If they talk ugly tell them that
> is not acceptable if they will have to go to time out. If they
> continue you don't have to spank them, put them in a time out place.
> Use the same place each time and walk away. It will take time to
> stop their bad behaviors but better now than later. If they go to
> school, daycare or any other social setting they will be fighting
> the system all the time and most likely be considered mentally slow
> or to have ODD because socially acceptable behaviors are one of the
> criteria. Many kids are labeled OCD and ADHD not because they are
> but because their parents did not teach them socially acceptable
> behaviors as young children and the kids pay the price by having to
> take drugs and be labeled their whole life.
>
> I don't mean this to sound offensive but IMO your husband is not
> being a good role model for these children. By not taking into
> account how your parents feel about his lack of cleanliness and
> clean attire to go out to eat is he is saying that no one matters
> but him. That is a very narcissistic attitude which if they pick up
> will cause them trouble all their lives. I don't like all the rules
> society has but I abide them because to do otherwise would make me
> miserable. You can't have a good career if you won't follow the
> rules. People are not going to hire someone who stinks or has a
> rebel attitude. That might be appropriate as a 13 year old but is
> very damaging to an adult.
>
> I doubt this will help much, but IMO, you as the mother are
> responsible for the proper upbringing of these children and if the
> Dept. of Human Services is ever called about them, you stand to lose
> them if they don't have respect for adults and act ODD. That is one
> of the criteria they look for when evaluating if a child should be
> left in a home.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-I am very picky about how my children and grandchildren appear in public. I have children ages from the 30s to 16. I also have 4 grandsons. There are socials norms and if they don't learn to adhere to those early in life they will have a lot of problems later in life. I always wanted my children to be accepted and not feel rejected by their peers and others because of my lack of training. My concern would be if they can't accept their grandparents requests whom they are to respect, they will reject other norms which will make for a very miserable life later. -=-

Liz, your entire post was very traditional, and I'm sorry it was let through to the list. You're still new to Always Learning, and must be new to unschooling.

While I agree that children should be encouraged to behave in socially acceptable ways, I don't think recommending "training" and time-out is good for this list.

Please read more about unschooling before advising. Mainstream advice can be had anywhere. This list needs to be about what will help people understand unschooling.



This part, though, is not so much about unschooling, and I agree with it in part:

-=-I don't mean this to sound offensive but IMO your husband is not being a good role model for these children. By not taking into account how your parents feel about his lack of cleanliness and clean attire to go out to eat is he is saying that no one matters but him. That is a very narcissistic attitude which if they pick up will cause them trouble all their lives. I don't like all the rules society has but I abide them because to do otherwise would make me miserable. You can't have a good career if you won't follow the rules. People are not going to hire someone who stinks or has a rebel attitude. That might be appropriate as a 13 year old but is very damaging to an adult. -=-

I don't think wearing yesterday's clothes and a lack of cleanliness is appropriate for thirteen year olds, either.

Your details and explanations, though, are quite conservative.
Without "a rebel attitude," there would be no homeschooling and no unschooling. But rebellion for the sake of rebellion is as bad as conformity for the sake of conformity.

This (in addition to having a word left out) isn't very useful: " I don't like all the rules society has but I abide them because to do otherwise would make me miserable."

Abiding by all the rules "society has" would include putting kids in school.

Sandra




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

 

<<<<" My concern would be if they can't accept their grandparents requests whom they are to respect, they will reject other norms which will make for a very miserable life later. >>>>
That is a big jump from saying that a 2 and a 4 year old will have a miserable life if they do not obey their grandparents. 

<<<<<"This is just my opinion based on my experience and you can take it for what I am charging you (which is nothing, LOL) but a 4 year old and a 2 year old should not be allowed to choose much of anything (except maybe between toys) because they don't have the ability at those ages to make good choices. To give them a choice puts too much responsibility on them at too young of an age. They have no idea what consequence their choices make, so in my opinion until they can accept the consequences for a poor choice most need to be made for them. That is what a parent does is make choices for kids until they can weigh the consequences of a poor choice. To do otherwise is a burden on them as children.">>>>>>

My kids have been making decisions since they were born. They ate when they were hungry and slept then they were tired. They continue to make decisions as toddlers.I have been with them all along guiding and supporting decisions and making sure they are safe. Being with them and helping them with decisions they could make. No one is advocating little children making life changing choices before they are ready to but they can make more choices than just which toy they can play.
http://sandradodd.com/decisions


<<<<"As for the whining and the ugly talke that is easily stopped. Just say no to a request and walk away. If they talk ugly tell them that is not acceptable if they will have to go to time out.">>>>
WOW.  
They do not "have to" go on a time out.
Here:


http://sandradodd.com/haveto



<<<" If they continue you don't have to spank them, put them in a time out place. Use the same place each time and walk away. It will take time to stop their bad behaviors but better now than later.">>>
No you do not "have to" spank them or put them in time out. You don't "have to" punish them either.  You can choose to parent peacefully . You can choose to 
be a partner , to guide them gently.

http://sandradodd.com/parentingpeacefully




<<<<"I don't mean this to sound offensive but IMO your husband is not being a good role model for these children. By not taking into account how your parents feel about his lack of cleanliness and clean attire to go out to eat is he is saying that no one matters but him. That is a very narcissistic attitude which if they pick up will cause them trouble all their lives. I don't like all the rules society has but I abide them because to do otherwise would make me miserable. You can't have a good career if you won't follow the rules. People are not going to hire someone who stinks or has a rebel attitude. That might be appropriate as a 13 year old but is very damaging to an adult. ">>>>>
At home it is best for unschoolers to live by principles. It is more peaceful too.
http://www.sandradodd.com/rules


There is so much in this post that  would like to comment but I need to go read a book to my 5 year old who is patiently waiting for me to type this.
She has made choices all her life, never been punished or put in time out. She still likes to be mostly naked at home but knows to dress up if someone is coming over.She is a joy and adorable. She is a spunky girl that is very well behaved according to the norms of society. I never walked away when she was whinny or not talking nice.
I  took care of her needs. I figured our why she was talking like that.  I let her know that talking nice was best and I appreciated.

Alex Polikowsky


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Meredith

Liz M <corporate7@...> wrote:
> There are socials norms and if they don't learn to adhere to those early in life they will have a lot of problems later in life. I always wanted my children to be accepted and not feel rejected by their peers and others because of my lack of training.
*****************

There's a whole lot in between forcing children to be miserable and uncomfortable and letting them run naked in the grocery store. There are Lots of ways to let young children be children while still maintaining some basic social standards, but it sometimes does entail being willing to suffer a little personal embarrassment in public and be seen as a bit eccentric at times. Not every time, but there are also times when it's better to say "this really isn't a good place to take my busy, imaginative little kid just now." It doesn't hurt kids to wait a couple years to learn certain kinds of etiquette - if anything they learn more effortlessly if you wait and keep them out of situations they can't yet handle.

When my daughter was little she loved to dress herself and would sometimes do so eccentrically - not half-naked, not ripped or dirty, but she'd put her shoes on backwards and wear odd socks and mis-matched outfits, layer dresses over pants or other dresses. Sometimes she'd want to wear part of a costume in public. I'd let her know when her clothes were going to cause her to get attention of the kind she might not want, and I certainly let her know about rules like the need to wear shoes if she wanted to walk around on the floor somewhere, or if something was over-the-top, but for the most part she could wear what she wanted.

And it was Embarrassing, sometimes - but usually it was more embarrassing to anticipate. A great many people actually delight in seeing a little child getting to be quirky and silly without really bothering anyone in the process. They'd certainly rather see a happy little kid in a tiara and batman costume who's relative well behaved than deal with a child wailing in misery while the parents staunchly ignore the "tantrum" and impose on the ears and blood pressure of everyone within hearing distance! Morgan got lots of fond smiles for fairy wings and odd outfits and I learned to be a grown-up lady, hold my head up and say with pride "Yes, she dressed herself today." My ego, I discovered, does not have to hinge on the clothing choices of a little girl.

>>a 4 year old and a 2 year old should not be allowed to choose much of anything
***************

Compared to adults, toddlers don't Want to choose much of anything. Really, their knowledge of the world is so scant that the few choices they want to make aren't that difficult for an thoughtful adult to accommodate. What do they want - to pick out their own clothes? It's not like they want to borrow the car, and gas money, drive to the store of their choosing and run up the credit card - they're still little. It's not a big deal to let a 4yo decide she'd rather wear pants than a dress if that's a choice she's in the mood to make. It's a baby choice.

Kids learn to make choices by making them, so it's a Very good idea to let kids make baby choices when they're babies. That's how they learn. It Is important to give them information, let them know what is acceptable and appropriate, but it's just as important to be realistic in that information giving. Wearing mismatched socks isn't going to get you thrown out of a restaurant, but it might elicit a comment from a strange adult - and to some kids, that comment could be unwanted. To other kids, though, it will be a chance to meet someone new and you'll get to hear how charming and personable your child is... and, my, he has a big vocabulary for his age!

> As for the whining and the ugly talke that is easily stopped.

>It will take time to stop their bad behaviors
*****************

It's always interesting to me that people can say and write contradictory things like that about punishment without noticing - and yet I wouldn't have noticed either when I was still convinced that it was important to be "firm".

If kids are easy-going and like to please, any kind of parenting looks great. If they aren't, then discipline can become a massive, ugly battle of wills, sucking the joy out of childhood for parents and children At Best. And at worst it kills children and teens and parents tell each other its the kid who was faulty. Bad seed.

My stepson is a "bad seed" in conventional thinking. When I stepped away from conventional discipline, though, he defied all the dire predictions to become a perfectly lovely young man. What he needed were all the things I'd been told for years I should never give him: time and attention and some choices.

Some kids need more attention, more time, more care than others. It's not fair, but nature isn't homogeneous. People are different. If a child needs more attention, give more attention. If a child wants more help, be more helpful. Having tried more conventional parenting I know that in the longer run it's Not more work to be more attentive and helpful than it is to argue and fight and punish all day long - and its sooooooo much less stressful! It's well worth muddling through the awkward transitional time when you know your old parenting skills aren't very good but you haven't gotten the hang of the new ones yet. Well, well worth the effort to get your joyful, inquisitive child back.

>>better now than later.

You hear that a lot about what kids "need to learn" and its not true at all. It's most often Better to wait until kids are a little older, with more skills and understanding to put them in difficult situations. Adults forget that going to a restaurant, or waiting in line at the bank, or visiting grandma are difficult situations - but to a little child they can be overwhelming in complexity and when a child is overwhelmed he's not learning much! That's the trap of "better now than later" - it sets parents up to see learning happen only in tiny little increments which seem to need continual reinforcement. But waiting a couple years can do the same thing painlessly.

It used to be, I didn't take my daughter to museums or even zoos because she just couldn't handle the rules. She wanted to run at top speed and climb on everything in sight. So we went places she could run top speed and climb everything in sight. Gradually we stared going to zoos and aquariums - making sure we did very kid-oriented things so she could touch and get physical and that was fine. Last year we started going to art galleries - she was 9. And she was a perfect little art enthusiast looking without touching and asking a million questions at dainty textile and glass exhibits and quirky steam-punkish things full of tempting moving parts. She couldn't have done that at 6 - so we didn't take her to art galleries! Ray couldn't have done it at Mo's current age - 10 - so we didn't take him until he was a teenager.

>>if the Dept. of Human Services is ever called about them, you stand to lose them if they don't have respect for adults and act ODD.
****************

Its a vast overstatement to say a 4yo who whines is "acting ODD". The people who work for child services see kids who live in imminent danger of very real bodily harm. They're not worried about a child who doesn't want to sit still in a restaurant or likes to wear a princess dress to the grocery store. I've lived in a hippie commune with no flush toilet and the worst they were concerned about was that the kids each had their own bedrooms (which they did, even those who co-slept and we were discrete about those details). Some child services folks are very anti-spanking, in fact, believing it is a form of abuse (but alas, they're too busy to police simple abuse much of the time).

Which isn't to say unschoolers should be cavalier about the way kids behave in public, but there are options beyond "no choices for children".

>>> I don't mean this to sound offensive but IMO your husband is not being a good role model for these children. By not taking into account how your parents feel about his lack of cleanliness and clean attire to go out to eat is he is saying that no one matters but him.
********************

I bet he feels that way about his in-laws: no-one matters to them but them. I wonder if he had more options and gentleness if he'd clean up a bit - if he feels like "nothing I do is going to be good enough, anyway, so screw it." It's a normal human reaction to rules and authority which seem arbitrary, and a good indication that this family might not want to stay at grandma's house. It sets everyone up to be antagonistic and that's not a good way to build relationships. It would be better not to see the grandparents at all than to have every visit be full of bitterness and acrimony.

I also wonder if mom is trying to overcompensate for a slovenly husband by pushing her anxieties off on the kids. That's not good either. She needs to find more ways to be loving and supportive of her husband so he has some reasons to give a darn about how he looks in public.

---Meredith

Liz M

Sandra,

I may be new to the list, but I an certainly not new to unschooling. I have been homeschooling the unschooling way since 1979. Just because someone uses traditional ways in social norms does not make them a traditional homeschooler. I am one of the first who had the "rebel" attitude and not bragging but if not for some of my work in this area many today would not have the legal right to even choose to unschool.

I have two kids that have graduated from college with honors who were unschooled and one in college now. I also have a 16 year old who because of his own perseverance plays on a public high school football team. He is the first one in our state to do that. He made that decision and followed through because he was unschooled and learned how to present himself in a socially acceptable manner to not only the coach, but the principal of the high school, the school board and the superintendent to make his idea acceptable to society. There are certain social rules we have to adhere to if we wish to accomplish the extraordinary which he has done.

What I am reading from your post is if someone disagrees with YOUR method, then it is wrong. I have many friends whose kids have been unschooled for many years, but are not unruly kids. There is a big difference. What I have is enough age and years of experience to know that allowing kids to be little heathens and disregard the feelings of others is a dead end street for those kids later in life. They are being set up to fail in being productive citizens and careers because they can't always have their way in the real world. We ALL have to follow rules and fit in to survive at some point. As much as I would like it to be different in society it is not now and will never be. I don't believe in sitting in a classroom, or even sitting up a home to mimic a school, but I do have enough years experience with hundreds of other unschoolers to know if a state Dept. of Children's services wants to take away children it is not the unschooling part they use in court but the behavior of the children which indicates to a "traditional" court they children's social needs are not being met in their opinion by those parents.





To: [email protected]
From: Sandra@...
Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2011 21:26:34 -0700
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] helping little ones navigate social norms




























-=-I am very picky about how my children and grandchildren appear in public. I have children ages from the 30s to 16. I also have 4 grandsons. There are socials norms and if they don't learn to adhere to those early in life they will have a lot of problems later in life. I always wanted my children to be accepted and not feel rejected by their peers and others because of my lack of training. My concern would be if they can't accept their grandparents requests whom they are to respect, they will reject other norms which will make for a very miserable life later. -=-



Liz, your entire post was very traditional, and I'm sorry it was let through to the list. You're still new to Always Learning, and must be new to unschooling.



While I agree that children should be encouraged to behave in socially acceptable ways, I don't think recommending "training" and time-out is good for this list.



Please read more about unschooling before advising. Mainstream advice can be had anywhere. This list needs to be about what will help people understand unschooling.



This part, though, is not so much about unschooling, and I agree with it in part:



-=-I don't mean this to sound offensive but IMO your husband is not being a good role model for these children. By not taking into account how your parents feel about his lack of cleanliness and clean attire to go out to eat is he is saying that no one matters but him. That is a very narcissistic attitude which if they pick up will cause them trouble all their lives. I don't like all the rules society has but I abide them because to do otherwise would make me miserable. You can't have a good career if you won't follow the rules. People are not going to hire someone who stinks or has a rebel attitude. That might be appropriate as a 13 year old but is very damaging to an adult. -=-



I don't think wearing yesterday's clothes and a lack of cleanliness is appropriate for thirteen year olds, either.



Your details and explanations, though, are quite conservative.

Without "a rebel attitude," there would be no homeschooling and no unschooling. But rebellion for the sake of rebellion is as bad as conformity for the sake of conformity.



This (in addition to having a word left out) isn't very useful: " I don't like all the rules society has but I abide them because to do otherwise would make me miserable."



Abiding by all the rules "society has" would include putting kids in school.



Sandra





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Dec 1, 2011, at 1:22 AM, Liz M wrote:

> I have been homeschooling the unschooling way since 1979. Just because someone uses traditional ways in social norms does not make them a traditional homeschooler.

Unlike social lists, it isn't about the unschoolingness of the poster. It about the unschoolingness of the ideas. Even if John Holt returned from the dead to post, his ideas would be pulled apart and analyzed if they undermined the principles discussed here: respect for kids feelings, trust in their ability to learn and desire to, support for who they are, partnership with the child and so on.

The list isn't a collection of "it works for my family" ideas from unschoolers. It's a collection of ideas that put the principles (as listed above) into action.

The purpose isn't to limit what members choose to do in their families. The purpose is to keep this resource focused so members can use it like a radical unschooling reference book. Members can look up how the principles apply in practice to brushing teeth, sibling rudeness, bedtimes, food, hours of television or video games, boredom, relatives and so on.

If a member posts a suggestion that could potentially undermine some of the principles, it's then pulled apart, analyzed, its flaws (when applied to a family with different personalities) exposed. Then, often, ideas that use the principles are offered as alternatives.

> I have two kids that have graduated from college with honors who were unschooled and one in college now.


The results indicate you were able to find ideas that "work" for the particular mix of personalities in your family. (I put "work" in quotes since there isn't a single definition everyone agrees on.)

What this list focuses on are ideas that will work -- support kids in making more principled choices -- regardless of personalities. In other words, solutions that use principles based on basic human needs such as to be trusted, respected, supported, treated with kindness and so on.

There are several families here with adult children too. Families who have, since their kids were small, discussed, analyzed, read, thought about, tried out, observed outcomes of solutions to problems to find ways that work AND do not compromise the principles. And these adult children are socially adept, personable, out in the world making responsible decisions, holding jobs or in college. They are not heathens, unproductive, selfish, nose-thumbers of rules.

> What I am reading from your post is if someone disagrees with YOUR method, then it is wrong


If an idea undermines the principles, then it isn't useful for this list.

> I have many friends whose kids have been unschooled for many years, but are not unruly kids.


Same here. But this list focuses on solutions to problems that are respectful AND solve the problem, trusting AND solve the problem.

The problem is that while learning a new approach using skills not fully understood, the results can be less than ideal. Then parents can bring the situations here to have them analyzed, to see where their thinking is off that's got them in this pickle, to see better solutions.

It's hard to figure out how to be respectful of kids wants while also being respectful of others. It's especially difficult when all the solutions to that problem most people have seen in their lives disregard the child's wishes and put other people first. (It's how most of us were raised. It's what we see in TV families. It's what we see out in public. It's what mothers often trade as "ideas that work".)

There *are* ways to do both. This list focuses on approaches that do that.

Doing both doesn't necessarily mean at the same time. A child can't be naked at Grandma's house and be respectful if Grandma objects. But the mom can find times for her child to be naked. She can find clothes that the child finds wearable. She can choose to not visit Grandma until her daughter is old enough to understand the situation well enough and keep her clothes on.

The approaches offered here are very much about seeing the big picture and being proactive rather than reactive. (Reactive solutions are offered too since parents can't predict everything and sometimes end up in awkward situations. But the main thrust is to plan ahead to avoid past problems, judge whether the child is capable of what's needed of them, and hopefully have an exit plan in case they aren't! ;-)

Where people often get confused when working with these new ideas is in seeing the child's want as inflexible and trying to work around that. What helps is being sensitive to the child's abilities. If a child is adamantly holding onto a rude idea, there's a bigger, underlying issue. The conventional assumption is the child is bad, rude, untrained and needs fixed. But here people are helped to see beneath the behavior. It could be age. It could be tiredness or hungriness or overwhelmedness. It could be the child doesn't trust the mom with her needs so feels she needs to fight or dig in her heels to get them met. The child is letting the mom know there's a problem. It's up to the mom to change the situation, not change the child to suit the situation (the child wasn't ready to be in.)

What isn't okay is to continue to allow the child to be rude. The solutions might involve leaving. Or getting out as much as possible. Or looking at the problem from a whole new perspective and finding some outside the box solution the child likes. And definitely recognizing the child may not be ready before planning another similar situation. And when it does come up again, letting the child know what will be expected of them and come up with solutions to avoid past problems. And have an exit plan! ;-)

> What I have is enough age and years of experience to know that allowing kids to be little heathens and disregard the feelings of others is a dead end street for those kids later in life.


It doesn't take years of experience to see that's true.

It can take reading the list for several weeks to see that no one here advocates such a thing. To see that the respectful-of-kids solutions are NOT about ignoring the feelings of others. The goal is finding solutions that are respectful of the child AND respectful of others.

> They are being set up to fail in being productive citizens and careers because they can't always have their way in the real world.


If you think that's what the list is advocating, you'd best sign off!

If you don't think that's what we're advocating but can't see how the ideas won't lead there, then ask. Don't assume the ideas must be leading there and attack them. *Ask* how kids manage to think of others. *Ask* how kids turn out who "get their way". (It's clearer to see it as kids whose needs are treated with respect and met in ways that are respectful of others, kind, doable.)

Since we're discussing navigating social norms, I do hope you helped your kids take a good amount of time to get a feel for a new place -- to figure out how it works, what its goals are, what it's purpose is -- before they jump in with snap conclusions and try to fix what they perceive as wrong. It's potentially embarrassing for them and they'll be seen as rude.

> We ALL have to follow rules and fit in to survive at some point.


The operative word is "at some point."

But I'd argue with "have to". The approach here is "choose to because it makes sense". The approach here is helping kids make respectful, kind, thoughtful choices in meeting their needs. The approach here is in being respectful of kids' abilities and using their less than stellar choices as feedback on what they're capable of and on how well we're communicating. If they're not capable of being respectful yet, then it's up to the mom to be the buffer between her child and the world, protecting the child but also protecting the world from the child. And then she can wait and watch before subjecting her child and other people to similar situations.

> As much as I would like it to be different in society it is not now and will never be.


You certainly can. You *choose* not to. You make -- I hope -- decisions weighing the good parts and bad parts of various options.

That's the goal here. To help kids make better choices. Not to memorize mom's better choices. But to do what you do and make choices they believe are better. When kids are young, their skills are beginner skills. They don't have the experience and maturity to make the choices they will as adults. So we act as their partners. Not *making* them comply with right behavior. But being their partner in their journey to thoughtful choices.

> if a state Dept. of Children's services wants to take away children it is not the unschooling part they use in court but the behavior of the children which indicates to a "traditional" court they children's social needs are not being met in their opinion by those parents.

Behavior will be a red flag. Kids' behavior towards others will be part of the evidence. But kids aren't being taken away because they're rude. There's way more needs to be wrong in the family than just rudeness.

This sounds like fear-based advice. It sounds like something personal that you're trying to avoid at all costs.

If you take the fear out of the equation, then parents have time to help their kids make thoughtful choices. But just because a 4 yo isn't capable of it yet, isn't a reason to put on the "I need to make her act right or she'll be a rude adult" glasses that block out more respectful-of-kids solutions.

Joyce





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-If a member posts a suggestion that could potentially undermine some of the principles, it's then pulled apart, analyzed, its flaws (when applied to a family with different personalities) exposed. Then, often, ideas that use the principles are offered as alternatives.-=-

"Different personalities" meaning the other family has different personalities from the writer's.

When Kirby was little he was very sick a couple of times, and I wanted to give him antibiotics, but he would reject (hurl) them. I asked my favorite other mom, who was a La Leche League Leader and was about to become an unschooler (which I wouldn't do for a few more years) what she did to get her kids to take medicine. She said she put it in a spoon and they drank it.

My kid would take one dose disguised in sherbet or whatever, but never the second. So she had no idea.

If, in 1988, there had been a way for me to ask over a thousand people who had gathered for the purpose of learning to live without being mean to kids, that group might have brainstormed me some new ideas AND given me some suggestions for avoiding the anti-biotics, too. And then, after the discussion, I could do whatever I wanted to without ever reporting back to them what I had decided.

That's how this list is set up to work.

-=-Sandra... What I am reading from your post is if someone disagrees with YOUR method, then it is wrong. I have many friends whose kids have been unschooled for many years, but are not unruly kids. There is a big difference. What I have is enough age and years of experience to know that allowing kids to be little heathens and disregard the feelings of others is a dead end street for those kids later in life....-=-

#1, it's not good to address a post to a single person. We're here to discuss the ideas.

#2, My kids are not unruly heathens who disregard the feelings of others. Far from it.

#3, I had written this, before: "Without "a rebel attitude," there would be no homeschooling and no unschooling. But rebellion for the sake of rebellion is as bad as conformity for the sake of conformity. "

Now you've come back to assure us you have been at the forefront of legalizing unschooling in your area, and that your son is the first to play football in high school in your area. That must have involved some of the "rebel attitude" you scorned earlier.

This is quite singular and finger-pointing, as you used my name and all caps:
"[I]f someone disagrees with YOUR method, then it is wrong."

My method, on this list, is to provide a usually-peaceful brainstorming session within the limits of peaceful parenting and natural learning. You came talking about time-outs and training. When someone lives in a place or time where spanking is accepted and expected, time-outs can seem pretty progressive. Today, with children whose parents might have been born in 1979 or even 1989, it's nowhere near the cutting edge of how to deal with a child expressing his needs.

My method of unschooling isn't my singular method. My kids are grown now, and calm and happy. They haven't graduated from college with honors as yours have, and it's laudable that yours have, but that doesn't give you credence in a discussion about how to deal with young children in a way that's respectful of them as people.

-=-Just because someone uses traditional ways in social norms does not make them a traditional homeschooler.-=-

But it shows one not to be a radical unschooler, if they're clinging to and recommending "traditional ways in social norms" in such detail that it's about punishments and training.

Sandra




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Liz M

My opinion is not based on fear but experience. I have had the experience of having to testify in courts for friends who were excellent parents but because their children were considered unruly by the "social norms" were removed from the household. I never had the problem personally but have watched while others tried to explain their unschooling techniques to a court that had not only no understanding of unschooling but no understanding of homeschools in general. The issue which always was used was the behaviors of the children to prove the state's charges of why the children should be in foster care instead of remaining with their parents.

In this day and time, it is very easy for an angry neighbor, good intentioned relative or a doctor to open an investigation into a family. When children's services interviews and spends time with the children there are certain benchmarks they observe for documentation for the court.

If the list is really a "collection of ideas that put principals into action" I would think other's experiences would be most helpful to people who have just entered into unschooling. I for one, do not consider unschooling "radical", but that is JMO. It has been around longer than regular homeschooling in this area, but most people in the early years tried to stay under the radar to prevent problems. Public schools were/ are so intent on testing that unschoolers if required to be tested were evaluated to be way below their grade level.



To: [email protected]
From: jfetteroll@...
Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2011 07:51:22 -0500
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] helping little ones navigate social norms






























On Dec 1, 2011, at 1:22 AM, Liz M wrote:



> I have been homeschooling the unschooling way since 1979. Just because someone uses traditional ways in social norms does not make them a traditional homeschooler.



Unlike social lists, it isn't about the unschoolingness of the poster. It about the unschoolingness of the ideas. Even if John Holt returned from the dead to post, his ideas would be pulled apart and analyzed if they undermined the principles discussed here: respect for kids feelings, trust in their ability to learn and desire to, support for who they are, partnership with the child and so on.



The list isn't a collection of "it works for my family" ideas from unschoolers. It's a collection of ideas that put the principles (as listed above) into action.



The purpose isn't to limit what members choose to do in their families. The purpose is to keep this resource focused so members can use it like a radical unschooling reference book. Members can look up how the principles apply in practice to brushing teeth, sibling rudeness, bedtimes, food, hours of television or video games, boredom, relatives and so on.



If a member posts a suggestion that could potentially undermine some of the principles, it's then pulled apart, analyzed, its flaws (when applied to a family with different personalities) exposed. Then, often, ideas that use the principles are offered as alternatives.



> I have two kids that have graduated from college with honors who were unschooled and one in college now.



The results indicate you were able to find ideas that "work" for the particular mix of personalities in your family. (I put "work" in quotes since there isn't a single definition everyone agrees on.)



What this list focuses on are ideas that will work -- support kids in making more principled choices -- regardless of personalities. In other words, solutions that use principles based on basic human needs such as to be trusted, respected, supported, treated with kindness and so on.



There are several families here with adult children too. Families who have, since their kids were small, discussed, analyzed, read, thought about, tried out, observed outcomes of solutions to problems to find ways that work AND do not compromise the principles. And these adult children are socially adept, personable, out in the world making responsible decisions, holding jobs or in college. They are not heathens, unproductive, selfish, nose-thumbers of rules.



> What I am reading from your post is if someone disagrees with YOUR method, then it is wrong



If an idea undermines the principles, then it isn't useful for this list.



> I have many friends whose kids have been unschooled for many years, but are not unruly kids.



Same here. But this list focuses on solutions to problems that are respectful AND solve the problem, trusting AND solve the problem.



The problem is that while learning a new approach using skills not fully understood, the results can be less than ideal. Then parents can bring the situations here to have them analyzed, to see where their thinking is off that's got them in this pickle, to see better solutions.



It's hard to figure out how to be respectful of kids wants while also being respectful of others. It's especially difficult when all the solutions to that problem most people have seen in their lives disregard the child's wishes and put other people first. (It's how most of us were raised. It's what we see in TV families. It's what we see out in public. It's what mothers often trade as "ideas that work".)



There *are* ways to do both. This list focuses on approaches that do that.



Doing both doesn't necessarily mean at the same time. A child can't be naked at Grandma's house and be respectful if Grandma objects. But the mom can find times for her child to be naked. She can find clothes that the child finds wearable. She can choose to not visit Grandma until her daughter is old enough to understand the situation well enough and keep her clothes on.



The approaches offered here are very much about seeing the big picture and being proactive rather than reactive. (Reactive solutions are offered too since parents can't predict everything and sometimes end up in awkward situations. But the main thrust is to plan ahead to avoid past problems, judge whether the child is capable of what's needed of them, and hopefully have an exit plan in case they aren't! ;-)



Where people often get confused when working with these new ideas is in seeing the child's want as inflexible and trying to work around that. What helps is being sensitive to the child's abilities. If a child is adamantly holding onto a rude idea, there's a bigger, underlying issue. The conventional assumption is the child is bad, rude, untrained and needs fixed. But here people are helped to see beneath the behavior. It could be age. It could be tiredness or hungriness or overwhelmedness. It could be the child doesn't trust the mom with her needs so feels she needs to fight or dig in her heels to get them met. The child is letting the mom know there's a problem. It's up to the mom to change the situation, not change the child to suit the situation (the child wasn't ready to be in.)



What isn't okay is to continue to allow the child to be rude. The solutions might involve leaving. Or getting out as much as possible. Or looking at the problem from a whole new perspective and finding some outside the box solution the child likes. And definitely recognizing the child may not be ready before planning another similar situation. And when it does come up again, letting the child know what will be expected of them and come up with solutions to avoid past problems. And have an exit plan! ;-)



> What I have is enough age and years of experience to know that allowing kids to be little heathens and disregard the feelings of others is a dead end street for those kids later in life.



It doesn't take years of experience to see that's true.



It can take reading the list for several weeks to see that no one here advocates such a thing. To see that the respectful-of-kids solutions are NOT about ignoring the feelings of others. The goal is finding solutions that are respectful of the child AND respectful of others.



> They are being set up to fail in being productive citizens and careers because they can't always have their way in the real world.



If you think that's what the list is advocating, you'd best sign off!



If you don't think that's what we're advocating but can't see how the ideas won't lead there, then ask. Don't assume the ideas must be leading there and attack them. *Ask* how kids manage to think of others. *Ask* how kids turn out who "get their way". (It's clearer to see it as kids whose needs are treated with respect and met in ways that are respectful of others, kind, doable.)



Since we're discussing navigating social norms, I do hope you helped your kids take a good amount of time to get a feel for a new place -- to figure out how it works, what its goals are, what it's purpose is -- before they jump in with snap conclusions and try to fix what they perceive as wrong. It's potentially embarrassing for them and they'll be seen as rude.



> We ALL have to follow rules and fit in to survive at some point.



The operative word is "at some point."



But I'd argue with "have to". The approach here is "choose to because it makes sense". The approach here is helping kids make respectful, kind, thoughtful choices in meeting their needs. The approach here is in being respectful of kids' abilities and using their less than stellar choices as feedback on what they're capable of and on how well we're communicating. If they're not capable of being respectful yet, then it's up to the mom to be the buffer between her child and the world, protecting the child but also protecting the world from the child. And then she can wait and watch before subjecting her child and other people to similar situations.



> As much as I would like it to be different in society it is not now and will never be.



You certainly can. You *choose* not to. You make -- I hope -- decisions weighing the good parts and bad parts of various options.



That's the goal here. To help kids make better choices. Not to memorize mom's better choices. But to do what you do and make choices they believe are better. When kids are young, their skills are beginner skills. They don't have the experience and maturity to make the choices they will as adults. So we act as their partners. Not *making* them comply with right behavior. But being their partner in their journey to thoughtful choices.



> if a state Dept. of Children's services wants to take away children it is not the unschooling part they use in court but the behavior of the children which indicates to a "traditional" court they children's social needs are not being met in their opinion by those parents.



Behavior will be a red flag. Kids' behavior towards others will be part of the evidence. But kids aren't being taken away because they're rude. There's way more needs to be wrong in the family than just rudeness.



This sounds like fear-based advice. It sounds like something personal that you're trying to avoid at all costs.



If you take the fear out of the equation, then parents have time to help their kids make thoughtful choices. But just because a 4 yo isn't capable of it yet, isn't a reason to put on the "I need to make her act right or she'll be a rude adult" glasses that block out more respectful-of-kids solutions.



Joyce



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Sandra Dodd

-=- I never had the problem personally but have watched while others tried to explain their unschooling techniques to a court that had not only no understanding of unschooling but no understanding of homeschools in general. -=-

How recently?

-=- I for one, do not consider unschooling "radical", but that is JMO.-=-

No, that's not just your opinion, it's your lack of knowledge of the term.


-=-If the list is really a "collection of ideas that put principals into action" I would think other's experiences would be most helpful to people who have just entered into unschooling-=-

It depends on what principles the others' experienced were based.

The experience of someone who doesn't know that there's a difference between unschooling and radical unschooling is likely to cause confusion and miss the mark.

Please read here:
http://www.sandradodd.com/unschool/radical

Sandra




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chris ester

On Thu, Dec 1, 2011 at 1:34 PM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:

> **
>
>


> ****-=-If the list is really a "collection of ideas that put principals
> into action" I would think other's experiences would be most helpful to
> people who have just entered into unschooling-=-
>
>
> >>>>>>It depends on what principles the others' experienced were based.
>
> The experience of someone who doesn't know that there's a difference
> between unschooling and radical unschooling is likely to cause confusion
> and miss the mark. <<<
>
I think that often there is a misunderstanding of terms. Semantics are
important, on this list radical unschooling is specifically defined and the
whole list is almost like some large, multi-lateral thought experiment to
hone that definition into a working paradigm.

It took me a while to understand that. I kept reading and learning and
absorbing the meme of the group.

It is possible, even likely, that other groups, or individuals will have a
different set of definitions that are not necessarily any less valid than
the ones used here. However, this is Sandra's sand box and she has quite
clearly stated that here the definitions that she is using are specific.
We homeschoolers are a nervy, independent bunch and those of us who
unschool are even more so, and, like many, I chafed at her audacity at
first. "Who is this person to tell me what unschooling or radical
unschooling is and how it is to be done?!?!?!"

This first reaction that many have isn't helped by a blunt manner and
concise writing style. Sandra does not mince words and does not waste
energy trying to cushion a blow. Many people do not appreciate this
approach. I was miffed by it at first myself. But, this style of
communication shakes a person up and, hopefully, spurs them to examine
their thoughts and words. Of course, this takes a willingness to be
flexible and a willingness to look at what you have typed with clear eyes
and see that perhaps your message wasn't clear and could be
misinterpreted. In short, you have to check your ego as well as all of
those defensive behaviors that have built up over the years from having to
defend your decision to homeschool and then to unschool and then to
radically unschool.
Chris

>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=- In short, you have to check your ego as well as all of
those defensive behaviors that have built up over the years from having to
defend your decision to homeschool and then to unschool and then to
radically unschool.-=-

Well, you don't "HAVE to."

Some choose to, and some choose not to. :-)

http://sandradodd.com/haveto

Sandra

Joyce Fetteroll

On Dec 1, 2011, at 12:24 PM, Liz M wrote:

> My opinion is not based on fear but experience.

I wasn't referring to your opinion. But to projecting a 4 yo having a difficult time to future anti-social adults to social services taking away children.

It's too much. It's fearful.

It's difficult to see situations clearly and objectively, difficult to come up with gentle solutions when fear gets in the mix. Fear tends to make people reactionary, wanting to fix difficulties Right Now.

> If the list is really a "collection of ideas that put principals into action" I would think other's experiences would be most helpful to people who have just entered into unschooling.


Not if they don't know why what they did worked. Not if they have no idea how the ideas will work for parents and kids with personalities different from the poster. Not if the ideas can potentially undermine the principles.

> I for one, do not consider unschooling "radical", but that is JMO.


If unschooling were radical, then it wouldn't need to be qualified with the word. That would be redundant.

"Radical" modifies the word unschooling, makes it different than (regular) unschooling.

Joyce

Meredith

Liz M <corporate7@...> wrote:
>What I have is enough age and years of experience to know that allowing kids to be little heathens and disregard the feelings of others is a dead end street for those kids later in life.
******************

If you had spent more time reading this list, you would know that the above is advocated by exactly none of the regular writers to this list, most especially Sandra! Good grief!

But the original question was about a toddler wanting to wear the same clothes as yesterday, with no mention of them being obviously soiled or damaged, and a pair of toddlers who don't always have picture perfect graces because they're 4 and 2. You're blowing it so far out of proportion its ridiculous. A 4yo who doesn't want to wear grandma's favorite dress and doesn't always say please is hardly a recipe for a sociopath.

---Meredith

chris ester

On Thu, Dec 1, 2011 at 3:53 PM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> -=- In short, you have to check your ego as well as all of
>
> those defensive behaviors that have built up over the years from having to
> defend your decision to homeschool and then to unschool and then to
> radically unschool.-=-
>
> ****Well, you don't "HAVE to."
>
> Some choose to, and some choose not to. :-)
>
> http://sandradodd.com/haveto
>
> Sandra****
>

I think that one would be well advised to choose to do so, IF they are
going to derive real benefit from this list. :)
chris

>
>


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ddgde96

Hi Lydia,

I too come from parents where obedience was demanded and enforced by spanking and standing in the corner. My husband and I both had this type of up bringing, so it has been very difficult to get away from this. Our children are 14, 9, and 6. I am ashamed to say that until recently (1-2 years ago), we thought that this was how you made sure children grew up to be "productive members of society." Having older children, I can tell you that forcing them to conform to what society deems "proper", is crushing to them.

We are just beginning this unschooling journey, and have not even told our parents that we are. (Since we have been homeschooling, we are just avoiding that conversation of switching to unschooling until we are forced to have it with them) Our parents aren't exactly on board with homeschooling, let alone unschooling.

I understand that there is a pressure from family and society and people tend to be judgement and jump to conclusions when they see things that they do not see as "normal."

I understand the frustration with the whining. We went through that but at an older age. Our son whined a lot from the age of about 7 until we realized that we were causing the whining by not listening to him. I am in no way saying that about you,so please do not take it like that.

I guess I really didn't have much advice to offer. I just wanted to let you know that I understand. Family can be harsher than society when it comes to the way we raise our children.

I am sorry but I forgot the name of the poster that talked about going shopping with the children to get clothes that would "appropriate" for grandma and grandpa, but that is an excellent idea. There were a lot of good ideas in that post, so thank you.

As far as the comments about timeouts. I know that many parents do do timeouts and see them and a good way to discipline your children. We did used these frequently until our oldest we about 13. We were discussing "proper behavior" (yes this was before unschooling had made its way into our lives), and she told us how humiliated it was for her to stand or sit in time out. She didn't stop the behavior bc she knew it was wrong. She stopped the behavior bc she didn't want to be humiliated like that again. We discussed some of the things she remembered being sent to time out for. After talking about them with her, we realized that most of the time it was a simple misunderstanding (usually on our part, not hers).

I have a problem with the idea of social norms to begin with. I have an issue with the major telling the minority what is acceptable and what is not. I think that within almost all of us there is an idea or feeling of what is "right or wrong" on a large scale. I think most know that murder and stealing are wrong. But who really cares if a 4 year old wears a pink dress on top if her black one with a pair of zebra striped leggings underneath and cowgirl boots and baseball cap. I see that I think, "Wow, look at that creativity." And if an adult is going to criticize something like that, than I feel sorry for that adult bc they have never know what it is like to see that world through the eyes f a child. It is an amazing world and making them conform steal that from them.

DeAnna

--- In [email protected], "LydiaK" <princessjasmine05@...> wrote:
>
> My daugher, Nisa, is four, and my son, Shaiah, is two. Right now we are visiting my mom and dad for Thanksgiving. I am trying to figure out how to balance giving my kids choices and helping my parents be comfortable with my kids. I remind the kids before we come visit that their grandparents like for them to wear clothes and underwear and diapers while we are here. I also encourage my son to wear boys clothes when we visit b/c my parents are uncomfortable with him wearing dresses. At home they are often naked or dressing up in many different clothing combinations. A lot of times I have let my daughter go out with some unusual outfit that she put together, as long as it is seasonally appropriate (or I will bring sweaters, pants, etc. if I think she might get chilly).
>
> This morning my folks wanted to take us out for breakfast and I tried to find Nisa something appropriate to wear. I let her choose among the clothes I'd packed for her. She didn't want to wear those clothes, she wanted to wear a toddler jumpsuit she'd found and has been wearing the past couple days since we've been here. I let her wear it with a peair of pants but my mom didn't want her to wear it and told her to pick something else. She took a long time trying to choose, and none of her choices were appropriate. I told my parents they should go ahead without her since she couldn't pick something to wear. She kept insisting that she be allowed to wear one dress on top of another dress, which did look kind of silly. My mother tried to discourage her, and my husband jumped in and told her she could wear what she wanted to wear. They all went out to breakfast, but I know my parents were not happy about how my daughter looked.
>
> I should mention, my mother is very picky about appearances and looking nice in public. She and my dad are very well known in the community as well. I am trying to help my kids behave in ways that will improve their relationship with their grandparents, whom they enjoy spending time with. I know that my parents have some issues with some of the things my kids do or get to choose. They pretty much think my kids are spoiled and my dad especially has a hard time being with them because they don't obey him the way he is used to. They both used to spank me and my sister as kids, and they are used to the kind of obedience you get from spanking.
>
> My husband, on the other hand, does not care much about appearances and social norms. He went to breakfast this morning without showering, in the clothes he wore yesterday. He did brush his teeth and wash his face. I don't really care when he does these things, but my parents have complained before about him being smelly and have asked him to wear deodorant when he is here, which he refuses to do.
>
> I know my daughter is upset with me this morning, and has been kind of upset with me most of the time we've been here because I've been chasing her around trying to get her underwear on and making sure she is appropriate when we are here. She did not want to do what was expected of her to go to breakfast (brush her hair, change into different clothes) and was very upset when I suggested she just not go. Some days I am very good at helping her do these kinds of things without a problem, and other days, like today, I am not as nice as I usually am. I think I feel a lot of pressure to get her to do certain things while we are here, and the stress makes me less kind.
>
> My parents do not like how my kids talk to us (they can be pretty demanding, although they usually will rephrase a demand if I suggest they ask me more nicely next time), don't like that they whine and cry about little things frequently (not sure how to help the kids with this but I see it as a problem too), and don't like that they don't listen and obey right away. I would like to find ways to help them not only for my parents but for myself in some of these areas.
>
> I think the problem is one I've created of giving my kids too much choice in the beginning, not looking enough at the particulars of the situation; and now my kids, especially my daughter, expect to always have things exactly how they want, without regard to others. This could be more because they are so young, but I think my behavior has also contributed. I am looking for help on how to deal with this situation better next time, and also how to generally shift away from them feeling entitled to whatever they want without regard for others. What kinds of suggestions can I give my kids that they would be more willing to hear? Maybe my tone of voice is the problem, as I feel I am bullying them rather than offering choices when I tell my daughter she can either wear the dresses I've picked for her or not go. I also feel that I should be working harder to convince her to go because it would mean a lot to her grandparents, rather than giving her the choice not to go if she doesn't want to wear the right clothes.
>
> Thanks a lot, and happy 10th anniversary (yesterday) to the list!
>
> Lydia Koltai
>

Sandra Dodd

-=-She didn't stop the behavior bc she knew it was wrong. She stopped the behavior bc she didn't want to be humiliated like that again. We discussed some of the things she remembered being sent to time out for. After talking about them with her, we realized that most of the time it was a simple misunderstanding (usually on our part, not hers).-=-

Someone commented once that our kids acted the same way when we weren't there as when we were.

Another family hung out in our same social group when my kids were six and seven and younger (from before Holly was born until she was two). They were military (army) and southern (Alabama) and their kids said yes ma'am and no sir all the time, and did what they were told. And I heard the dad say "I better not ever see you do that again," about this or that.

I used to let them play at our house sometimes--sometimes just playing, sometimes more like babysitting exchange. And their kids, especially the boy, were WILD and rude and awful and hyper when their parents were gone. The parents would ask for a report, so they could punish the kids if they had been bad, and so I would always say it was no problem, that they had been fine.

I dealt directly with the kids in those instances. "Matty, if I tell your dad, what's he going to do?" Matty remembers. I say "I'm not going to tell him, but if you do this any more, you won't be welcome back to my house."

THAT was more sobering and more important to him than the threat of his parents' same-old/same-old.

If they were rough with toys, I would talk about the toys themselves, and the kids' attachment to them, and that if they wanted to play with them, to do it nicely.

I gave them real reasons to behave better, which their parents had never even BEGUN to try to do. It was "don't or spanking."

So once another friend of ours, single, grown, came upon all of them (the oldest eight, and so six kids under eight) at a campout without any parents around. Kirby (7) was suggesting better ways to be to the wild Alabama faction, and our kids were being (as she said) the same as always. She said until then, she had always thought we were wrong and the other family was raising their kids right, but she had changed her mind.

They moved back to Alabama that year. I heard a few stories of those other kids as they moved through their teens, but I stopped asking, because the stories were sad and frustrating for me to hear.

Sandra




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[email protected]

***... especially my daughter, expect to always have things exactly how they want, without regard to others. ***

I don’t think so. I think she’s four years old and can’t possibly understand what difference it can make to grandma if she wears the clothes she likes. I think grandma should chill and be glad she has healthy, happy grandkids who want to see her. But since you can’t change your mom, then change the circumstances.

Maybe, don’t go to their house for awhile until your kids can understand what’s expected of them. Invite your parents to visit you, if you like. Get them a motel room near your house, go on outings familiar to your kids where they can be in play clothes. Reduce the stress on your family. Your kids will get older.

If your little girl likes to wear two dresses find clothes she can layer that will look coordinated. If she’s clean and covered then don’t fight with her. She’s not your mother’s child, she’s yours. You’re not your mother’s child anymore either. <g>

It’s hard to be four years old, in someone else’s house, where big people are making demands on you for no sensible reason you can see, and where your nice mom is stressed out and not being very kind to you. I’d whine and cry too.

Grandma expects to get her way consistently, with everyone, and doesn’t seem to care whether she makes a little girl cry or a son in law feel less than welcome. I think your daughter behaved just like any normal four year old would under the circumstances.

***don't like that they whine and cry about little things frequently (not sure how to help the kids with this but I see it as a problem too),***

Try to avoid things that make them whine and cry. Listen to them before they feel like whining or crying is the next thing they need to try to make you understand. Avoid situations they’re not ready for.
Are your kids very sensitive? Maybe they have some of your mother’s demanding, want-things-my-way nature.

About being demanding sometimes, how do you talk to them? How long does it take you to respond to them? Are they waiting a long time for your help and getting frustrated? Maybe you’re gentle and attentive and they are expressing some of their genetic nature. Your reminders to be nicer will help over time. Maybe you can play some games about how people sound when they’re angry or happy or mean or nice so that your kids start to think about that. They’re so young. They have lots of time to learn and grow.

***I think the problem is one I've created of giving my kids too much choice in the beginning, not looking enough at the particulars of the situation; ***

Choice is good. Choice with help from you is good. I think the problem might be that you’re a little bullied by your mother. And if you’re back home now, I hope you’re feeling less worried and stressed.

Deb Lewis


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Pam Sorooshian

About the whining...

Kids whine a lot more when parents are not clear in their responses.
Parents who don't want to say "no" often don't say "yes" right away either
and the poor kids are confused and frustrated with too-vague responses.

My suggestion to someone with whiny kids is to try to be much more clear
and concise. If the answer really is going to be "no" then say "no" right
away - don't drag it out. You can talk about looking at alternatives, etc.,
but first be very clear if what they are asking for is truly off the table.

On the other hand, if you know you are going to find a way to say "yes,"
then say, "Okay" right away.

If you don't know, say, "I'm not sure how to make that happen, but I'm
thinking." You can ask them to help you think about it.

(They are trying to help you think about it, by whining <G>. Engage them
more directly in giving real ideas and they'll learn to be more
solution-oriented and whining will dissipate naturally.)

If you cannot do something for them, they might be sad, but if they believe
you would if you could, then there will be no point to whining.

Back off of the idea of saying "yes" all the time and only say "yes" when
you mean it. Try to mean it as often as possible, but don't ever lead them
on when you don't. Only say "no" if you mean it, too. If you don't know if
the answer is going to be yes or know, because you're trying to figure out
a way to get them what they want - say that.

Write down some responses - make sure they are clear.

"Yes, we can do that."
"No, I can't make that happen today."
"Okay, let's do that on the way home."
"I'd like to do that, but we don't have much time. We could leave the park
early and do it then, if you want."
"We can get this today and that another day, but not both on the same day."
"I can't buy it for you, but let's write it on our wish list."
"I cannot do it now, no, but later this afternoon, yes." (You have to mean
it and follow through or your credibility will deteriorate further.)
"We do not have chocolate cookies. We can get them next time we go to the
store."
"We can go after the baby wakes up and is fed."
"Yes, let's jump in the car and go right now."
"I can make soup for you in 5 minutes." (5 minutes is not 20 minutes!)

Only solicit their ideas in helping make things happen, if you are honestly
willing to listen to those ideas and consider them for real. If "no" is
really the only answer and you're not really willing to listen to ideas,
don't pretend.

-pam


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Claire Darbaud

2011/11/25 LydiaK <princessjasmine05@...>
> don't like that they whine and cry about little things frequently (not
sure how to help the kids with this but I see it as a problem too)

Another thing came to my mind while reading this post. Food.

One thing I discovered only after starting unschooling and reading this
list, is the critical importance of food and making sure wour children are
not hungry.

When they are hungry, my children don't look at all like the idea I had
about hungry children. They do not say "I'm hungry mom, can you please fix
something for me" and go play giving me some time to fix the said thing. In
fact, I realised my children are not really conscious of being hungry until
they are litterally starving. If I wait for them to ask for food, I'm
heading to a full blown crisis. Reaching for the pack of cookies won't be
fast enough for their sense of emergency...

And yet there are early signals. When my children get hungry, they start to
whine and cry about little things. They pick up fight. They start teasing
each other...

Now when my children start whining, the first question I ask myself is
"when did they last eat?". And I offer a snack and drink. The results are
amazing! I don't ignore their pledge. I also try to say yes more readily
and be more reliable to follow up with my yeses. But food is incredibly
critical.

Being at other people's place, where the food is less readily available and
I do not have much say about what food will be served and when can be a
very very challenging situation. I visited some friends who parent in a
mainstream way, and navigating food was complicated. Their children were
only allowed to eat at breakfast, lunch and diner time... That was a good
recipe for whining and fighting kids... A stay over visit to grand parents
house can be similarly challenging.

Having snack food with me when I visit other people's places has helped. If
I can't just give them the snack inside, because other children are not
allowed snacks at that given time, or just to prevent too many raised
eyebrows, I try to encouraging my kids to go for a little walk or for a
short visit to the bakery so I can offer snacks more freely...

I'm amazed to realise how much struggle between parents and children can be
avoided simply by making food more readily available.

And I am grateful for this list and my neighboring unschooling family to
have opened my eyes on this.

Claire


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Sandra Dodd

-=-Having snack food with me when I visit other people's places has helped. If
I can't just give them the snack inside, because other children are not
allowed snacks at that given time, or just to prevent too many raised
eyebrows, I try to encouraging my kids to go for a little walk or for a
short visit to the bakery so I can offer snacks more freely...-=-

When our boys were little and we would visit my in-laws, sometimes Keith would "take them to the park" (which involved snacks on the way) or we would volunteer to go to the store, take the kids, and get them a snack.

Keith grew up in that house, living that way. He would run an errand and get a hamburger, or visit a friend and eat there. His mom thought she was controlling his weight and his life by providing only three little meals. What she was doing was giving him a ton of practice in being sneaky, and ruining their relationship. From *her* point of view it meant that if he was fat (which he had been since birth), it was proveably not her "fault."

Very antagonistic.

So there's another aspect past the fact that hungry kids are cranky.

Maslow's hierarchy of needs says a person who is hungry cannot learn, so for unschooling I think that could be the very first consideration. http://sfhelp.org/relate/keys/maslow.htm

I read something again yesterday that was talking about what was most important in unschooling and disagreed (minor point, just a reminder).

When a family doesn't consider learning the primary goal of unschooling, things can disintegrate pretty quickly. YES, once you get it going kids are learning all the time. But if a family starts with the idea that learning is happening all the time, they might never quite get the learning part of unschooling going. And in that case learning will NOT happen all the time. It's subtle but crucial.

Sandra

P.S. The site that maslow link is from might be useful to some people here. http://sfhelp.org/
http://sfhelp.org/site/intro.htm
It's free. It's a self-help series about breaking the cycle of wounds and unawareness in parents and parenting.
I wish they hadn't used "true Self" (capital S), but still the site is valuable, and well organized.

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Pam Sorooshian

>>>>>>

On Mon, Dec 5, 2011 at 7:37 AM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:

> But if a family starts with the idea that learning is happening all the
> time, they might never quite get the learning part of unschooling going.
> And in that case learning will NOT happen all the time. It's subtle but
> crucial.

<<<

Some kind of learning is happening all the time - but not all learning is
good. Learning how to sneak food, learning that parents can't be trusted
and counted on, learning to think of oneself in negative ways, all sad.
Learning that life is boring, hard work, sucks, hurts, is unfair, also sad.
Not what unschoolers are trying for.

Human brains are voracious and will feed on whatever is available -
unschoolers should be offering interesting experiences, ideas, stimulation,
music, logic, conversation, images, movement, discovery, beauty, etc. Brain
food in abundance. It requires effort. It requires attention to qualitative
and quantitative aspects of learning. Depth and breadth -
creating a lifestyle in which kids are offered the opportunity to learn a
lot about some things and a little about a lot of things.

-pam


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