boundaries, reading, etc.
Radha ma Tayay
Hello I am new here.
I was a pretty radical unschooler til my son was about 6. He went to school one semester before i pulled him out then put him in another one semester pulled him out again. He is almost eight now and I never established boundaries when he was very young and so now he argues with me on everything. I have studied a lot of waldorf philosophy regarding the six seven year change which i found really helpful. he is past that now and he is very ... to say it positive... persistent. to say it negatively he harrasses me and i often have to separate myself from him because he won't take no for an answer 99 percent of the time. He needs a lot of physical stimulation which is very draining. He is constantly putting things in my face no matter how much i tell him not to OR climbing on my back/ shoulders any chance he gets. We are an only parent/ only child dynamic which intesifies things...
he is totally resistant to anything to do with school. he loves harry potter: listening, reading, watching, riding bike/ scooter, watching animal documentaries, stories...
I want advice regarding how your children learned to read. I know many children teach themselves but don't see that happening with my son... i no longer consider myself a pure unschooler, not since my son was 5... i had very little support in the freedom i allowed him... and did not have a partner in protection of such... and now he is older and very controlling of me and so I do have to have boundaries with him now.
Thank you
I was a pretty radical unschooler til my son was about 6. He went to school one semester before i pulled him out then put him in another one semester pulled him out again. He is almost eight now and I never established boundaries when he was very young and so now he argues with me on everything. I have studied a lot of waldorf philosophy regarding the six seven year change which i found really helpful. he is past that now and he is very ... to say it positive... persistent. to say it negatively he harrasses me and i often have to separate myself from him because he won't take no for an answer 99 percent of the time. He needs a lot of physical stimulation which is very draining. He is constantly putting things in my face no matter how much i tell him not to OR climbing on my back/ shoulders any chance he gets. We are an only parent/ only child dynamic which intesifies things...
he is totally resistant to anything to do with school. he loves harry potter: listening, reading, watching, riding bike/ scooter, watching animal documentaries, stories...
I want advice regarding how your children learned to read. I know many children teach themselves but don't see that happening with my son... i no longer consider myself a pure unschooler, not since my son was 5... i had very little support in the freedom i allowed him... and did not have a partner in protection of such... and now he is older and very controlling of me and so I do have to have boundaries with him now.
Thank you
Sandra Dodd
-=-I want advice regarding how your children learned to read. I know many children teach themselves but don't see that happening with my son... i no longer consider myself a pure unschooler, not since my son was 5... i had very little support in the freedom i allowed him... and did not have a partner in protection of such... -=-
Stories regarding how other people's children learned to read might not be "advice."
The advice is leave him alone about reading, or you can do the same damage school does.
The stories are here, and there are dozens of them. Please read them slowly and thoughtfully, because rushing through and dinging the bell "done" won't help. Learning about unschooling isn't a speed activity. Cramming never helps. :-)
http://sandradodd.com/reading
There are other things on Joyce's page, too.
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/academics/reading/learningtoread.html
But if you don't consider yourself a pure unschooler, these things might not work for you. If you intend to withhold the opportunity for him to learn on his own (not "teach himself," but to grow into it in his own way in his own time, while he's learning a thousand other things too), then these ideas and this advice might not work for you.
-=-i had very little support in the freedom i allowed him-=-
Does this mean you're living with relatives or other housemates? Or maybe you've had pressure from parents? I'm only guessing because you dropped an unclear hint.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Stories regarding how other people's children learned to read might not be "advice."
The advice is leave him alone about reading, or you can do the same damage school does.
The stories are here, and there are dozens of them. Please read them slowly and thoughtfully, because rushing through and dinging the bell "done" won't help. Learning about unschooling isn't a speed activity. Cramming never helps. :-)
http://sandradodd.com/reading
There are other things on Joyce's page, too.
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/academics/reading/learningtoread.html
But if you don't consider yourself a pure unschooler, these things might not work for you. If you intend to withhold the opportunity for him to learn on his own (not "teach himself," but to grow into it in his own way in his own time, while he's learning a thousand other things too), then these ideas and this advice might not work for you.
-=-i had very little support in the freedom i allowed him-=-
Does this mean you're living with relatives or other housemates? Or maybe you've had pressure from parents? I'm only guessing because you dropped an unclear hint.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-and now he is older and very controlling of me and so I do have to have boundaries with him now. -=-
That was later in the post. Earlier:
-=-I never established boundaries when he was very young and so now he argues with me on everything.-=-
-=- i often have to separate myself from him because he won't take no for an answer 99 percent of the time-=-
-=-He is constantly putting things in my face no matter how much i tell him not to -=-
That's a lot of arguing, a lot of "no," and a lot of "have to."
"Constantly" and "99 percent of the time" sound harsh and extreme. When does he have time for all this? "harry potter: listening, reading, watching, riding bike/ scooter, watching animal documentaries, stories... "
-=-We are an only parent/ only child dynamic which intesifies things... -=-
For your own sake, for clarity, in private, try to rephrase that last statement. It's a lot of words. ARE the two of you "a dynamic"? I think it intensifies things to layer words on between you and what simply is. You have a son. You can be his friend or his enemy.
http://justaddlightandstir.blogspot.com/
From today's post there:
----------------------
"It's much better to be their partner than their roadblock. If you become an obstacle they'll find a way around you. Is that what you want for your relationship with your kids?"
—Joyce Fetteroll
----------------------
Other things that can help you, but not all in one giant insertion. (Read a little, try a little, wait a while, watch.)
http://sandradodd.com/partners/child
http://sandradodd.com/haveto
Any time you write, say, or think "have to," pause and see it as a choice. You will move from powerless to powerful right then.
http://sandradodd.com/choices
Arguing isn't a bad thing. If you can't explain why something should be done, or if your point is arbitrary, or if you're exaggerating your side and saying no all the time, arguing is sensible and good. If you could think of it as a discussion, as a strength, and respond to the arguments respectfully as you would to an adult friend, there might never be another argument, only conversations.
Sandra
That was later in the post. Earlier:
-=-I never established boundaries when he was very young and so now he argues with me on everything.-=-
-=- i often have to separate myself from him because he won't take no for an answer 99 percent of the time-=-
-=-He is constantly putting things in my face no matter how much i tell him not to -=-
That's a lot of arguing, a lot of "no," and a lot of "have to."
"Constantly" and "99 percent of the time" sound harsh and extreme. When does he have time for all this? "harry potter: listening, reading, watching, riding bike/ scooter, watching animal documentaries, stories... "
-=-We are an only parent/ only child dynamic which intesifies things... -=-
For your own sake, for clarity, in private, try to rephrase that last statement. It's a lot of words. ARE the two of you "a dynamic"? I think it intensifies things to layer words on between you and what simply is. You have a son. You can be his friend or his enemy.
http://justaddlightandstir.blogspot.com/
From today's post there:
----------------------
"It's much better to be their partner than their roadblock. If you become an obstacle they'll find a way around you. Is that what you want for your relationship with your kids?"
—Joyce Fetteroll
----------------------
Other things that can help you, but not all in one giant insertion. (Read a little, try a little, wait a while, watch.)
http://sandradodd.com/partners/child
http://sandradodd.com/haveto
Any time you write, say, or think "have to," pause and see it as a choice. You will move from powerless to powerful right then.
http://sandradodd.com/choices
Arguing isn't a bad thing. If you can't explain why something should be done, or if your point is arbitrary, or if you're exaggerating your side and saying no all the time, arguing is sensible and good. If you could think of it as a discussion, as a strength, and respond to the arguments respectfully as you would to an adult friend, there might never be another argument, only conversations.
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
-=-I was a pretty radical unschooler til my son was about 6. He went to school one semester before i pulled him out then put him in another one semester pulled him out again. He is almost eight now -=-
Is "about 6" five? Because "almost eight" is seven.
If he went to school half a year at five, and half a year at six or seven, I question whether you were ever an unschooler before that. I'm not saying this to be mean, I'm saying it because it's a problem when people identify themselves as "pretty radical unschoolers" but their kids go to school at five or six, right on schedule. The problem is partly for those trying to understand what unschooling is and what it means, but more than that it's a problem for that parent who has used words in ways that get in the way of clarity.
Would you say that before your son went to school you were parenting mindfully or that you were following the precepts of attachment parenting? I'm asking not because the list needs the answer, but because it will help you to untangle the threads of what might have gone awry, so you can move forward today in a clearer direction.
So he's seven and has been in school for two semesters. In two different school years, I'm guessing.
-=-he is totally resistant to anything to do with school.-=-
Good. That's the only way to get to unschooling from anywhere. First, the cold turkey from anything to do with school. But if he's being "resistant," then he must be getting some pressure. Resistance can only exist in the face of pressure.
http://sandradodd.com/rebellion
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Is "about 6" five? Because "almost eight" is seven.
If he went to school half a year at five, and half a year at six or seven, I question whether you were ever an unschooler before that. I'm not saying this to be mean, I'm saying it because it's a problem when people identify themselves as "pretty radical unschoolers" but their kids go to school at five or six, right on schedule. The problem is partly for those trying to understand what unschooling is and what it means, but more than that it's a problem for that parent who has used words in ways that get in the way of clarity.
Would you say that before your son went to school you were parenting mindfully or that you were following the precepts of attachment parenting? I'm asking not because the list needs the answer, but because it will help you to untangle the threads of what might have gone awry, so you can move forward today in a clearer direction.
So he's seven and has been in school for two semesters. In two different school years, I'm guessing.
-=-he is totally resistant to anything to do with school.-=-
Good. That's the only way to get to unschooling from anywhere. First, the cold turkey from anything to do with school. But if he's being "resistant," then he must be getting some pressure. Resistance can only exist in the face of pressure.
http://sandradodd.com/rebellion
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Oct 14, 2011, at 1:14 AM, Radha ma Tayay wrote:
argument! Can you give us some examples?
If he feels it's kind of random which of his needs will be met, he'll
ask for way more than he needs. If he needs "10" and you say yes to 5
out of 10 requests, how many requests does he need to make to be
fairly certain of getting 10? (If my math is correct, 30 request will
get pretty close to 10.)
it's like asking for it and being turned down. I'm not saying that to
make you feel guilty. What you need is a mental shift away from
thinking he needs more than you can give.
If someone needs 3 glasses of water a day and only gets 2, they'll
spend the rest of the day trying to get that 3rd glass. So it will
seem to others like this person's constantly thirsty and can never get
enough. But if he gets 3 glasses and can have as many as he wants, he
won't seem thirsty at all.
He can't need less by being given less. He can't modify his needs to
meet what you're willing to give. He can lose faith that you'll meet
his needs. He can look elsewhere to others offering to give what you
won't. (It's how predators work.)
If you can mentally shift away from seeing his demands as too much to
his needs being large and you as the one who is privileged with
meeting them, it will help a lot.
It will also help to shift away from stuffing down your own needs to
meet his. Shift to finding ways to meet his needs AND yours. His needs
take precedence since he doesn't have the power to meet his own but
you have the power to manipulate the world to meet his and yours.
full attention. Kathryn would put her hands on my face even though I
told her I didn't like it, but it was her way of saying I wasn't being
present enough. I was off in my head, physically there but not
mentally there.
Maybe when he does that he needs you to roughhouse with him then.
Don't see it as rewarding him for doing what you don't like but as an
indication that you aren't noticing early enough that he needs your
attention. See the touching as his last resort to communicate with you
because all the more subtle acceptable ways weren't working.
who like physical play into his life. Team sports? Martial arts?
school to do for you?
for boys. But 12, 14 isn't unusual for either sex.
It will help not to think of learning to read as teaching themselves.
Teaching suggests it's a simple mechanical process that kids will
figure out. But if the various brain areas aren't mature enough to do
their part in the decoding, he physically can't read, no matter what
anyone does.
If he's in a print rich environment, if his experiences with print are
positive, if there's text that's useful for what he's interested in,
he will read when he can.
supporting their needs is much better.
Freedom suggests doing whatever you want without regard to others. If
you're there to meet his needs, you can do it in ways that are
respectful of you, him and others, kind, safe and any other principles
a situation calls for.
Your whole post sounds like you're gritting your teeth and putting up
with him. And that's because you're in a mental place of this being
more than you can handle and if he'd just need less, you could meet
his needs. But he needs what he needs. That's not going to change. The
only one you can change is you.
But trying harder isn't going to work! It will mean just gritting you
teeth harder. You need a big mental shift away from where you are
that's causing you to grit your teeth.
Joyce
> now he argues with me on everythingWhat are you giving him to argue about? It takes two to create an
argument! Can you give us some examples?
> persistent. to say it negatively he harrasses me and i often have toWhat are you saying no to that he needs to be persistent about?
> separate myself from him because he won't take no for an answer 99
> percent of the time.
If he feels it's kind of random which of his needs will be met, he'll
ask for way more than he needs. If he needs "10" and you say yes to 5
out of 10 requests, how many requests does he need to make to be
fairly certain of getting 10? (If my math is correct, 30 request will
get pretty close to 10.)
> He needs a lot of physical stimulation which is very draining.And imagine what it's like to be bursting with that need. Imagine what
it's like asking for it and being turned down. I'm not saying that to
make you feel guilty. What you need is a mental shift away from
thinking he needs more than you can give.
If someone needs 3 glasses of water a day and only gets 2, they'll
spend the rest of the day trying to get that 3rd glass. So it will
seem to others like this person's constantly thirsty and can never get
enough. But if he gets 3 glasses and can have as many as he wants, he
won't seem thirsty at all.
He can't need less by being given less. He can't modify his needs to
meet what you're willing to give. He can lose faith that you'll meet
his needs. He can look elsewhere to others offering to give what you
won't. (It's how predators work.)
If you can mentally shift away from seeing his demands as too much to
his needs being large and you as the one who is privileged with
meeting them, it will help a lot.
It will also help to shift away from stuffing down your own needs to
meet his. Shift to finding ways to meet his needs AND yours. His needs
take precedence since he doesn't have the power to meet his own but
you have the power to manipulate the world to meet his and yours.
> He is constantly putting things in my face no matter how much i tellWhat are you doing when he does that? It sounds like he wants your
> him not to OR climbing on my back/ shoulders any chance he gets.
full attention. Kathryn would put her hands on my face even though I
told her I didn't like it, but it was her way of saying I wasn't being
present enough. I was off in my head, physically there but not
mentally there.
Maybe when he does that he needs you to roughhouse with him then.
Don't see it as rewarding him for doing what you don't like but as an
indication that you aren't noticing early enough that he needs your
attention. See the touching as his last resort to communicate with you
because all the more subtle acceptable ways weren't working.
> We are an only parent/ only child dynamic which intesifies things...Yes, it will. It will help if you can get some older kids and adults
who like physical play into his life. Team sports? Martial arts?
> he is totally resistant to anything to do with school. he lovesWhy do you want him to be not resistant to school? What do you want
> harry potter: listening, reading, watching, riding bike/ scooter,
> watching animal documentaries, stories...
school to do for you?
> I want advice regarding how your children learned to read. I knowHe's still young for reading, especially for a boy. 6-10 is typical
> many children teach themselves but don't see that happening with my
> son...
for boys. But 12, 14 isn't unusual for either sex.
It will help not to think of learning to read as teaching themselves.
Teaching suggests it's a simple mechanical process that kids will
figure out. But if the various brain areas aren't mature enough to do
their part in the decoding, he physically can't read, no matter what
anyone does.
If he's in a print rich environment, if his experiences with print are
positive, if there's text that's useful for what he's interested in,
he will read when he can.
> i no longer consider myself a pure unschooler, not since my son wasFreedom is probably not the best concept to raise kids by. Meeting and
> 5... i had very little support in the freedom i allowed him... and
> did not have a partner in protection of such... and now he is older
> and very controlling of me and so I do have to have boundaries with
> him now.
supporting their needs is much better.
Freedom suggests doing whatever you want without regard to others. If
you're there to meet his needs, you can do it in ways that are
respectful of you, him and others, kind, safe and any other principles
a situation calls for.
Your whole post sounds like you're gritting your teeth and putting up
with him. And that's because you're in a mental place of this being
more than you can handle and if he'd just need less, you could meet
his needs. But he needs what he needs. That's not going to change. The
only one you can change is you.
But trying harder isn't going to work! It will mean just gritting you
teeth harder. You need a big mental shift away from where you are
that's causing you to grit your teeth.
Joyce
Sandra Dodd
-=- I have studied a lot of waldorf philosophy regarding the six seven year change which i found really helpful. he is past that now -=-
I don't think studying waldorf has ever led anyone closer to a good relationship with a child.
Each child is different, and every moment is an opportunity to do better:
http://sandradodd.com/moment
That's about living in moments rather than in days. By your own account, it seems you're living in years. There was a hard year. You studied for it. He's past it. How many moments in that year went by as missed opportunities because they were seen as a small part of "the six seven year change"?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I don't think studying waldorf has ever led anyone closer to a good relationship with a child.
Each child is different, and every moment is an opportunity to do better:
http://sandradodd.com/moment
That's about living in moments rather than in days. By your own account, it seems you're living in years. There was a hard year. You studied for it. He's past it. How many moments in that year went by as missed opportunities because they were seen as a small part of "the six seven year change"?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Bun
There is great free info available right here on this group as well as unschoolingbasics (search the messages for reading posts and threads)and on Sandra's and Joyce's websites.
If you are interested in hearing someone talk about their experiences (and willing to pay), recordings are available from some of the unschooling conferences (Live and Learn, Life Is Good, Good Vibrations). You can find some presentations on reading (and other topics) by contacting the organizers or searching online. Here is an example of one presentation about reading from the 2009 Life Is Good Conference called "Unschooling and the 'Late' Reader" with Linda Hessel (http://lifeisgoodconference.com/registration/products-
page/presentation-recordings/)
Here is a link from Peter Gray's blog you might like to check out:
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/freedom-learn/201002/children-teach-themselves-read
Here is another source of articles that you could look through to find reading and other articles (some sample articles are free, but you can also subscribe and read current and back issues online):
http://www.lifelearningmagazine.com/read.html
Laurie
If you are interested in hearing someone talk about their experiences (and willing to pay), recordings are available from some of the unschooling conferences (Live and Learn, Life Is Good, Good Vibrations). You can find some presentations on reading (and other topics) by contacting the organizers or searching online. Here is an example of one presentation about reading from the 2009 Life Is Good Conference called "Unschooling and the 'Late' Reader" with Linda Hessel (http://lifeisgoodconference.com/registration/products-
page/presentation-recordings/)
Here is a link from Peter Gray's blog you might like to check out:
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/freedom-learn/201002/children-teach-themselves-read
Here is another source of articles that you could look through to find reading and other articles (some sample articles are free, but you can also subscribe and read current and back issues online):
http://www.lifelearningmagazine.com/read.html
Laurie
Meredith
"Radha ma Tayay" <blissfulcalm@...> wrote:
Another way of thinking about this is that You are choosing to argue with Him. What are you arguing about? Can you find a way to help and support him instead? Can you find ways to compromise rather than arguing? He's not going to learn that if you keep fighting with him!
Find ways to engage him First - that's important. And find ways to give him enough of what he needs as often as he needs. When you pull back and say "enough" when He's not done, then the need is still there. It's like being 3/4 of the way dry - you're still damp and sticky and uncomfortable!
A very good book with lots of ideas for different physical activities is The Out of Sync Child. It doesn't matter if you son has "sensory integration disorder" which is the topic of the book, the various ideas for ways to engage with a child who needs a lot of certain kinds of stimulation is a boon.
If he likes climbing, help him find things to climb Often. If he likes lots of very intense touch, look for ways to touch him - offer him a massage, scratch his back, things like that. Offer to do it before he asks. Waiting and saying "no" to his needs won't help him - he needs your help figuring out how to Meet his needs in ways that work in real life. You may find some useful ideas here:
http://sandradodd.com/physicality/
---Meredith
> He is almost eight now and I never established boundaries when he was very young and so now he argues with me on everything.******************
Another way of thinking about this is that You are choosing to argue with Him. What are you arguing about? Can you find a way to help and support him instead? Can you find ways to compromise rather than arguing? He's not going to learn that if you keep fighting with him!
>> He is constantly putting things in my face no matter how much i tell him not to OR climbing on my back/ shoulders any chance he gets. We are an only parent/ only child dynamic which intesifies things...********************
Find ways to engage him First - that's important. And find ways to give him enough of what he needs as often as he needs. When you pull back and say "enough" when He's not done, then the need is still there. It's like being 3/4 of the way dry - you're still damp and sticky and uncomfortable!
A very good book with lots of ideas for different physical activities is The Out of Sync Child. It doesn't matter if you son has "sensory integration disorder" which is the topic of the book, the various ideas for ways to engage with a child who needs a lot of certain kinds of stimulation is a boon.
If he likes climbing, help him find things to climb Often. If he likes lots of very intense touch, look for ways to touch him - offer him a massage, scratch his back, things like that. Offer to do it before he asks. Waiting and saying "no" to his needs won't help him - he needs your help figuring out how to Meet his needs in ways that work in real life. You may find some useful ideas here:
http://sandradodd.com/physicality/
---Meredith