Healing the damage of control?
[email protected]
Our son is 9yrs old and has been to school until 8mths ago. (It took us to move half across the world and trying many diffferent schools to realise that what he needs is no school!) Having discovered Life Learning we are now finally moving positively forward; deschooling and gently removing control.
The place we are currently stuck on is how to heal the massive damage school/control has left him with.
We are not doing any structured learning (avsolutely doesn't want to) and understand that it is early days but his motivation, will and self belief is so incredibly damaged that we would love some advice.
He understands what he has been through and what we are doing now and is himself worried that his motivation and will to learn anything will never come back. We tell him that he is learning all the time doing the things he loves and by living our family life but he fears he will never be able to write read etc. Because he has no desire to learn
them.
He was labelled as having ADHD but we know now that his symptoms were the result of how school made him feel and not being able to do what was expected of him.
Having read Sandra Dodd's post about the need for parents to find the way to help their children learn in a natural way I would love some advice.
Marloes (AU)
The place we are currently stuck on is how to heal the massive damage school/control has left him with.
We are not doing any structured learning (avsolutely doesn't want to) and understand that it is early days but his motivation, will and self belief is so incredibly damaged that we would love some advice.
He understands what he has been through and what we are doing now and is himself worried that his motivation and will to learn anything will never come back. We tell him that he is learning all the time doing the things he loves and by living our family life but he fears he will never be able to write read etc. Because he has no desire to learn
them.
He was labelled as having ADHD but we know now that his symptoms were the result of how school made him feel and not being able to do what was expected of him.
Having read Sandra Dodd's post about the need for parents to find the way to help their children learn in a natural way I would love some advice.
Marloes (AU)
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
"He understands what he has been through and what we are doing now and is himself worried that his motivation and will to learn anything will
never come back. We tell him that he is learning all the time doing the
things he loves and by living our family life but he fears he will never be able to write read etc. Because he has no desire to learn
them."
Is he or you under the impression that learning only looks like someone getting a book or classes , or lessons to learn a subject.
Kind like doing some kind of reading program so they can learn to read?
My son learned to read without any of that. It was very very different that what we know as people who went to school for many years.
He also can do a lot of math but his learning looks totally different than how kids learn in school. He has learned mostly by playing games, video games, and just math all around life. No lessons and also not someone trying to teach him.
Learning happens all the time. Sandra came up with the Learn Nothing Day on her birthday a couple years ago or so.
It was to make the point that it was impossible to go a whole day in your life where you would learn absolutely nothing.
Here are so good links:
http://www.sandradodd.com/learnnothingday/
for beginners:
http://sandradodd.com/help
and this one: What if they are not interested in learning?
http://sandradodd.com/joyce/deschooling
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
never come back. We tell him that he is learning all the time doing the
things he loves and by living our family life but he fears he will never be able to write read etc. Because he has no desire to learn
them."
Is he or you under the impression that learning only looks like someone getting a book or classes , or lessons to learn a subject.
Kind like doing some kind of reading program so they can learn to read?
My son learned to read without any of that. It was very very different that what we know as people who went to school for many years.
He also can do a lot of math but his learning looks totally different than how kids learn in school. He has learned mostly by playing games, video games, and just math all around life. No lessons and also not someone trying to teach him.
Learning happens all the time. Sandra came up with the Learn Nothing Day on her birthday a couple years ago or so.
It was to make the point that it was impossible to go a whole day in your life where you would learn absolutely nothing.
Here are so good links:
http://www.sandradodd.com/learnnothingday/
for beginners:
http://sandradodd.com/help
and this one: What if they are not interested in learning?
http://sandradodd.com/joyce/deschooling
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
***He understands what he has been through and what we are doing now and is himself worried that his motivation and will to learn anything will never come back. We tell him that he is learning all the time doing the things he loves and by living our family life but he fears he will never be able to write read etc. Because he has no desire to learn them. ***
If this is the place your son is at, I'd stop talking about learning, stop talking about reading and writing. Eventually he'll read and write. He's learning all the time, and he'll recognize that after he's able to relax and enjoy life again.
It sounds like what you need is to help him find one little thing he loves and do that with him, for no other reason but for the joy and fun of doing it. It could be going on bike rides, watching movies, counting cars, collecting bugs, playing with legos, it doesn't matter WHAT it is, just that he loves doing it. While you do that with him, see, really see what he loves about it and note it in your head, even out loud. Be amazed and full of wonder and joy over that thing. He needs to see the joy in living and learning again and you can do a great deal to help that and encourage that.
The saddest thing that school does to kids is crush that spark of fun and love of learning. It really can return!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
If this is the place your son is at, I'd stop talking about learning, stop talking about reading and writing. Eventually he'll read and write. He's learning all the time, and he'll recognize that after he's able to relax and enjoy life again.
It sounds like what you need is to help him find one little thing he loves and do that with him, for no other reason but for the joy and fun of doing it. It could be going on bike rides, watching movies, counting cars, collecting bugs, playing with legos, it doesn't matter WHAT it is, just that he loves doing it. While you do that with him, see, really see what he loves about it and note it in your head, even out loud. Be amazed and full of wonder and joy over that thing. He needs to see the joy in living and learning again and you can do a great deal to help that and encourage that.
The saddest thing that school does to kids is crush that spark of fun and love of learning. It really can return!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
I really appreciate the responses to my post and will check out all the links. My husband and I have understood that learning happens all the time and we are supporting O in the things he really wants to do. (Which is predominantly and not surprisingly all the things that were controlled whilst he was at school!) We are not talking about reading etc.
Our sticking point is that he is so anxious of learning that if anything that reminds him of school comes up naturally (in a computer game for example) he will avoid or stop doing that activity because it triggers the way he felt at school. It seems to us that he may need help getting over that or perhaps it is simply time?
Marloes
Our sticking point is that he is so anxious of learning that if anything that reminds him of school comes up naturally (in a computer game for example) he will avoid or stop doing that activity because it triggers the way he felt at school. It seems to us that he may need help getting over that or perhaps it is simply time?
Marloes
--- In [email protected], BRIAN POLIKOWSKY <polykowholsteins@...> wrote:
>
> "He understands what he has been through and what we are doing now and is himself worried that his motivation and will to learn anything will
> never come back. We tell him that he is learning all the time doing the
> things he loves and by living our family life but he fears he will never be able to write read etc. Because he has no desire to learn
> them."
>
> Is he or you under the impression that learning only looks like someone getting a book or classes , or lessons to learn a subject.
> Kind like doing some kind of reading program so they can learn to read?
> My son learned to read without any of that. It was very very different that what we know as people who went to school for many years.
> He also can do a lot of math but his learning looks totally different than how kids learn in school. He has learned mostly by playing games, video games, and just math all around life. No lessons and also not someone trying to teach him.
>
> Learning happens all the time. Sandra came up with the Learn Nothing Day on her birthday a couple years ago or so.
> It was to make the point that it was impossible to go a whole day in your life where you would learn absolutely nothing.
>
> Here are so good links:
>
> http://www.sandradodd.com/learnnothingday/
>
> for beginners:
>
>
> http://sandradodd.com/help
>
> and this one: What if they are not interested in learning?
>
>
> http://sandradodd.com/joyce/deschooling
>
>
>
> Alex Polikowsky
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Sandra Dodd
-=-Our sticking point is that he is so anxious of learning that if anything that reminds him of school comes up naturally (in a computer game for example) he will avoid or stop doing that activity because it triggers the way he felt at school. It seems to us that he may need help getting over that or perhaps it is simply time? -=-
-=-It seems to us that he may need help getting over that-=-
Like what?
Talking about it is NOT help.
Let him make choices. If he wants to turn a game off, or a movie, or only do pages in coloring books that don't look like school, LET HIM CHOOSE, and let him choose without your response or comment. REALLY let him choose, freely, easily, privately. For a long time. Many months. A year. For the rest of his life.
-=-or perhaps it is simply time? -=-
Not "simply" time. Profoundly time.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-=-It seems to us that he may need help getting over that-=-
Like what?
Talking about it is NOT help.
Let him make choices. If he wants to turn a game off, or a movie, or only do pages in coloring books that don't look like school, LET HIM CHOOSE, and let him choose without your response or comment. REALLY let him choose, freely, easily, privately. For a long time. Many months. A year. For the rest of his life.
-=-or perhaps it is simply time? -=-
Not "simply" time. Profoundly time.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-We are not doing any structured learning (avsolutely doesn't want to) and understand that it is early days but his motivation, will and self belief is so incredibly damaged that we would love some advice.-=-
Be gentle and sweet and positive with him. Be as non-schoolish as possible. Don't take him to museums for a year or two if that will seem "educational." (Some kids feel one way about museums and libraries; other kids feel another way.) Don't nudge him toward educational TV. Don't praise him for doing something that seems academic while showing even the subtlest disdain for less lofty fare.
-=-He understands what he has been through and what we are doing now -=-
#1, no way does he "understand."
#2, don't talk about it.
Too many unschooling parents talk TOO much to their kids about unschooling, about parenting. Just do it. Don't talk about it unless they ask, and then give short answers.
I'm pretty confident that not even you and your husband understand what he has been through and what you are doing now. :-)
Understanding comes gradually, in natural ways, from real experience.
-=-... is himself worried that his motivation and will to learn anything will never come back.-=-
Don't say more than "Don't worry; I'm pretty sure it will be fine."
-=-We tell him that he is learning all the time doing the things he loves and by living our family life but he fears he will never be able to write read etc. Because he has no desire to learn them. -=-
Say "don't worry." And smile.
Play happy music in your house. Watch comedies. Make pretty, interesting food. Bring flowers in. Do something that will make the house smell surprisingly good sometimes.
http://sandradodd.com/checklists
Do some of those things, but mostly for yourself, to pass the time and to give you practice thinking about all the large and tiny things in new ways.
-=-He was labelled as having ADHD but we know now that his symptoms were the result of how school made him feel and not being able to do what was expected of him.-=-
"He was labelled" and "now we know" are both dismissive of your son as an individual. Maybe he is a kid who doesn't want to sit still. That's being energetic and curious, not a disability. Maybe he likes to flit from thing to thing, from thought to thought. That's not a disability.
You seem, though, to be saying that he's still not able to do what's expected of him--expected by his parents or himself.
Part of deschooling is to stop expecting anything of him. You can't bypass that. You can't test out. Lots of unschoolers think they can test out, or take an accelerated track to unschooling. It's not that way at all. It's something that has to be discovered, understood, created and maintained.
I guess I'm quoting that part in Just Add Light soon. :-)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Be gentle and sweet and positive with him. Be as non-schoolish as possible. Don't take him to museums for a year or two if that will seem "educational." (Some kids feel one way about museums and libraries; other kids feel another way.) Don't nudge him toward educational TV. Don't praise him for doing something that seems academic while showing even the subtlest disdain for less lofty fare.
-=-He understands what he has been through and what we are doing now -=-
#1, no way does he "understand."
#2, don't talk about it.
Too many unschooling parents talk TOO much to their kids about unschooling, about parenting. Just do it. Don't talk about it unless they ask, and then give short answers.
I'm pretty confident that not even you and your husband understand what he has been through and what you are doing now. :-)
Understanding comes gradually, in natural ways, from real experience.
-=-... is himself worried that his motivation and will to learn anything will never come back.-=-
Don't say more than "Don't worry; I'm pretty sure it will be fine."
-=-We tell him that he is learning all the time doing the things he loves and by living our family life but he fears he will never be able to write read etc. Because he has no desire to learn them. -=-
Say "don't worry." And smile.
Play happy music in your house. Watch comedies. Make pretty, interesting food. Bring flowers in. Do something that will make the house smell surprisingly good sometimes.
http://sandradodd.com/checklists
Do some of those things, but mostly for yourself, to pass the time and to give you practice thinking about all the large and tiny things in new ways.
-=-He was labelled as having ADHD but we know now that his symptoms were the result of how school made him feel and not being able to do what was expected of him.-=-
"He was labelled" and "now we know" are both dismissive of your son as an individual. Maybe he is a kid who doesn't want to sit still. That's being energetic and curious, not a disability. Maybe he likes to flit from thing to thing, from thought to thought. That's not a disability.
You seem, though, to be saying that he's still not able to do what's expected of him--expected by his parents or himself.
Part of deschooling is to stop expecting anything of him. You can't bypass that. You can't test out. Lots of unschoolers think they can test out, or take an accelerated track to unschooling. It's not that way at all. It's something that has to be discovered, understood, created and maintained.
I guess I'm quoting that part in Just Add Light soon. :-)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Oct 14, 2011, at 8:13 AM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
internally. People tend to focus on the externals: If two people are
doing a task, it seems that's all that's important.
But if one is doing the task because they want to and the other
because they're made to, the two aren't any where near equal.
He needs to feel free to not choose things that remind him of school
in order to choose things that remind him of school. If you're
pressuring him -- eg, helping him get to a mental state that would
allow him to choose schoolish things -- because you're afraid he will
always avoid it, it's back to where he was when he didn't have a
choice about school.
He needs time to recover so the associations aren't as strong. He
needs to feel free that he'll never ever ever have to do something
that reminds him of school.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> If he wants to turn a game off, or a movie, or only do pages inI think most people aren't aware of how important choice is
> coloring books that don't look like school, LET HIM CHOOSE
internally. People tend to focus on the externals: If two people are
doing a task, it seems that's all that's important.
But if one is doing the task because they want to and the other
because they're made to, the two aren't any where near equal.
He needs to feel free to not choose things that remind him of school
in order to choose things that remind him of school. If you're
pressuring him -- eg, helping him get to a mental state that would
allow him to choose schoolish things -- because you're afraid he will
always avoid it, it's back to where he was when he didn't have a
choice about school.
He needs time to recover so the associations aren't as strong. He
needs to feel free that he'll never ever ever have to do something
that reminds him of school.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Laricchia
<< Our sticking point is that he is so anxious of learning that if anything that reminds him of school comes up naturally (in a computer game for
example) he will avoid or stop doing that activity because it triggers the way he felt at school. It seems to us that he may need help getting over
that or perhaps it is simply time? >>
Definitely time. My eldest left school when he was nine, and he, and my daughter at seven, avoided things that seemed schoolish, for well over a year.
Let him choose when to stop an activity without any judgment, even subtle non-verbal reactions, from you. Be supportive if he wants to talk about it.
"Ugh. I stopped playing because the mini-game I'm at was just like those worksheets I hated at school."
"Oh, that's so annoying. You'd think they could come up with something more interesting!"
From there you guys might brainstorm some ideas of your own and have a laugh, or, if he's not in the mood for that, you could suggest another
activity: "Want to play Monopoly with me?" Or whatever he enjoys.
Since you know he sometimes worries about learning skills like reading etc, you might notice specific things he's learning as he's living. Not to use
as "proof" in a big conversation about unschooling, but just to mention if a moment arises. If he says he's worried he won't learn to read, you might
reply brightly "I'm not worried. You've learned new words playing games, like ..." adding a quick example or two you've observed. Then move on to
something else.
But I wouldn't try to explain or discuss unschooling with him at any length - giving the process that kind of power can actually take away from it.
What I mean is, by giving unschooling specific "end product" goals such as reading, you take it beyond living fully in the moment. When even a small
part of your, or his, mind is wondering about those goals (like him thinking, "Hmm, Mom says I'm learning math when I play Monopoly" while playing
Monopoly) you can lose immersion in the moment - which is where the best learning is. I've found that kind of information is best left gathered by
looking back on past activities ("Cool, I got faster at adding numbers together while playing Monopoly."), not by projecting them into the future ones.
Have fun living life together! Enjoy things he loves together, bring interesting things into his life, and follow his lead. You'll learn so much about
him, and he'll learn so much about himself.
Pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
example) he will avoid or stop doing that activity because it triggers the way he felt at school. It seems to us that he may need help getting over
that or perhaps it is simply time? >>
Definitely time. My eldest left school when he was nine, and he, and my daughter at seven, avoided things that seemed schoolish, for well over a year.
Let him choose when to stop an activity without any judgment, even subtle non-verbal reactions, from you. Be supportive if he wants to talk about it.
"Ugh. I stopped playing because the mini-game I'm at was just like those worksheets I hated at school."
"Oh, that's so annoying. You'd think they could come up with something more interesting!"
From there you guys might brainstorm some ideas of your own and have a laugh, or, if he's not in the mood for that, you could suggest another
activity: "Want to play Monopoly with me?" Or whatever he enjoys.
Since you know he sometimes worries about learning skills like reading etc, you might notice specific things he's learning as he's living. Not to use
as "proof" in a big conversation about unschooling, but just to mention if a moment arises. If he says he's worried he won't learn to read, you might
reply brightly "I'm not worried. You've learned new words playing games, like ..." adding a quick example or two you've observed. Then move on to
something else.
But I wouldn't try to explain or discuss unschooling with him at any length - giving the process that kind of power can actually take away from it.
What I mean is, by giving unschooling specific "end product" goals such as reading, you take it beyond living fully in the moment. When even a small
part of your, or his, mind is wondering about those goals (like him thinking, "Hmm, Mom says I'm learning math when I play Monopoly" while playing
Monopoly) you can lose immersion in the moment - which is where the best learning is. I've found that kind of information is best left gathered by
looking back on past activities ("Cool, I got faster at adding numbers together while playing Monopoly."), not by projecting them into the future ones.
Have fun living life together! Enjoy things he loves together, bring interesting things into his life, and follow his lead. You'll learn so much about
him, and he'll learn so much about himself.
Pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Meredith
"mcve@..." <marloes@...> wrote:
It's okay for him to avoid things like that for now. He needs the break. But it could also help for you to offer to do whatever-it-is for him. Like read instructions or dialog or figure something out - let him know you'll do that, no problem. School sets kids up to think they can't ask for help, especially with things they're "supposed" to be able to do or are "learning" so you may need to outright offer.
When Ray first came home - both from school and living with his bio mom - he was used to thinking he couldn't ask for things he wanted. It helped a lot to give him things and offer to do things for him, it helped him know it was okay to ask or at least say "I'd really like x" that he wouldn't be put down or criticized any more.
---Meredith
>> Our sticking point is that he is so anxious of learning that if anything that reminds him of school comes up naturally (in a computer game for example) he will avoid or stop doing that activity***************
It's okay for him to avoid things like that for now. He needs the break. But it could also help for you to offer to do whatever-it-is for him. Like read instructions or dialog or figure something out - let him know you'll do that, no problem. School sets kids up to think they can't ask for help, especially with things they're "supposed" to be able to do or are "learning" so you may need to outright offer.
When Ray first came home - both from school and living with his bio mom - he was used to thinking he couldn't ask for things he wanted. It helped a lot to give him things and offer to do things for him, it helped him know it was okay to ask or at least say "I'd really like x" that he wouldn't be put down or criticized any more.
---Meredith
[email protected]
Thank you for all the replies to my post:
I really appreciate all the effort and it is wonderful to get support from people who understand!
Your replies have been truly helpful in my realising how much I need to deeply get together and you have given me great ideas of how to go about that.
I am extremely grateful thank you.
Love Marloes.
I really appreciate all the effort and it is wonderful to get support from people who understand!
Your replies have been truly helpful in my realising how much I need to deeply get together and you have given me great ideas of how to go about that.
I am extremely grateful thank you.
Love Marloes.
--- In [email protected], "Meredith" <plaidpanties666@...> wrote:
>
> "mcve@" <marloes@> wrote:
> >> Our sticking point is that he is so anxious of learning that if anything that reminds him of school comes up naturally (in a computer game for example) he will avoid or stop doing that activity
> ***************
>
> It's okay for him to avoid things like that for now. He needs the break. But it could also help for you to offer to do whatever-it-is for him. Like read instructions or dialog or figure something out - let him know you'll do that, no problem. School sets kids up to think they can't ask for help, especially with things they're "supposed" to be able to do or are "learning" so you may need to outright offer.
>
> When Ray first came home - both from school and living with his bio mom - he was used to thinking he couldn't ask for things he wanted. It helped a lot to give him things and offer to do things for him, it helped him know it was okay to ask or at least say "I'd really like x" that he wouldn't be put down or criticized any more.
>
> ---Meredith
>