Getting Enough Sleep
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Dh and I have already made the decision to leave behind arbitrary bedtime and give our children the freedom to follow their own bodies around sleep. We are confident in our choice. What we are struggling with is coping ouselves with their sleep rhythms.
A little background...ds, now 4.5, has always been a night owl. As an infant it was a *battle* to get him down to sleep. If he fell asleep at 8pm, it was always just a nap, never down for the night, and then he'd be up until 2am or later. Going down for the night was often around midnight, give or take. Then, when he was 11 months old, he pushed a little later every night until he reversed night and day. It took about 6 weeks to get him back on a sleep at night rhythm. Bedtimes continued to be a big struggle and despite our hardest fighting (for it was a fight, not just with him but with events in the day leading up to bedtime), we never got ds to settled for the night at a time conventionally considered "normal." 10pm was really the earliest he'd sleep. And keeping it that early required a lot of fancy footwork on our part.
So not surprisingly, the day we did not enforce a bedtime, he returned seemlessly to his night owl self and has actually reversed night and day again. He goes to sleep around 4 in the morning, later if he naps, and wakes up mid to late afternoon. Dd (2 yrs) tends to follow the family flow, but typically falls asleep and wakes up a couple of hours before ds.
It is an adjustment to be sure, but for us, one worth making. Giving up all the fighting, and regaining the energy that frees up to put to more positive use, is the biggest instant benefit to all. But dh and I are now struggling to get enough sleep. Dh has the hardest time meeting his sleep needs. He has a 9-6 day job, but feels that ds needs him at night and doesn't want to or feels like he can't leave him. (I tend to sleep with dd, night nursing being a significant factor). Dh catches sleep where he can (a nap after work, or while ds naps from 1-3am) but it is not enough. I have suggested putting a proper bed in the area where ds likes to stay up so dh can be with ds but get better quality sleep. We live in a 2 storey house with bedrooms on the 2nd level (where I sleep with dd) and a playroom with TV and video games in the basement (where dh and ds stay up and fall asleep either on the couch or carpeted floor).
We don't expect ds's current sleep pattern to last forever, but we also don't expect it to change anytime soon.
Ideas of how others have met their own sleep needs with young night owls would be greatly appreciated,
Mairi.
A little background...ds, now 4.5, has always been a night owl. As an infant it was a *battle* to get him down to sleep. If he fell asleep at 8pm, it was always just a nap, never down for the night, and then he'd be up until 2am or later. Going down for the night was often around midnight, give or take. Then, when he was 11 months old, he pushed a little later every night until he reversed night and day. It took about 6 weeks to get him back on a sleep at night rhythm. Bedtimes continued to be a big struggle and despite our hardest fighting (for it was a fight, not just with him but with events in the day leading up to bedtime), we never got ds to settled for the night at a time conventionally considered "normal." 10pm was really the earliest he'd sleep. And keeping it that early required a lot of fancy footwork on our part.
So not surprisingly, the day we did not enforce a bedtime, he returned seemlessly to his night owl self and has actually reversed night and day again. He goes to sleep around 4 in the morning, later if he naps, and wakes up mid to late afternoon. Dd (2 yrs) tends to follow the family flow, but typically falls asleep and wakes up a couple of hours before ds.
It is an adjustment to be sure, but for us, one worth making. Giving up all the fighting, and regaining the energy that frees up to put to more positive use, is the biggest instant benefit to all. But dh and I are now struggling to get enough sleep. Dh has the hardest time meeting his sleep needs. He has a 9-6 day job, but feels that ds needs him at night and doesn't want to or feels like he can't leave him. (I tend to sleep with dd, night nursing being a significant factor). Dh catches sleep where he can (a nap after work, or while ds naps from 1-3am) but it is not enough. I have suggested putting a proper bed in the area where ds likes to stay up so dh can be with ds but get better quality sleep. We live in a 2 storey house with bedrooms on the 2nd level (where I sleep with dd) and a playroom with TV and video games in the basement (where dh and ds stay up and fall asleep either on the couch or carpeted floor).
We don't expect ds's current sleep pattern to last forever, but we also don't expect it to change anytime soon.
Ideas of how others have met their own sleep needs with young night owls would be greatly appreciated,
Mairi.
Sandra Dodd
-=-Dh and I have already made the decision to leave behind arbitrary bedtime and give our children the freedom to follow their own bodies around sleep. -=-
Instead of just saying "okay, you can stay up a bit later tonight, since we have noplace to go tomorrow," you made a single decision to give your children freedom to follow their own bodies around? (Sorry.... it was worded oddly. :-)
Your kids are very young to "have freedom" like that. And it's going too far, for babies of two years old.
-=-Giving up all the fighting, and regaining the energy that frees up to put to more positive use, is the biggest instant benefit to all. But dh and I are now struggling to get enough sleep. Dh has the hardest time meeting his sleep needs. He has a 9-6 day job, but feels that ds needs him at night and doesn't want to or feels like he can't leave him. (I tend to sleep with dd, night nursing being a significant factor). -=-
I don't think anyone on this list suggested that someone who works should be up with a child while the stay-at-home parent sleeps. I hope not. And I don't want this post to sit looking like a recommendation for it.
IF your son isn't old enough to stay up by himself, unattended, quietly, then he needs to go to sleep when others do. When he's older, that might change, but when your husband needs to sleep for work, that should take priority over all else. That is not arbitrary.
-=-Dh and I have already made the decision to leave behind arbitrary bedtime-=-
It should not have been a single decision to "leave behind" everything. By "arbitrary bedtime" I'm guessing you mean "8:00" or some such. But when someone needs to wake up and operate a vehicle (safety) or go to work and be alert (providing for the family), that is not AT ALL arbitrary.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Instead of just saying "okay, you can stay up a bit later tonight, since we have noplace to go tomorrow," you made a single decision to give your children freedom to follow their own bodies around? (Sorry.... it was worded oddly. :-)
Your kids are very young to "have freedom" like that. And it's going too far, for babies of two years old.
-=-Giving up all the fighting, and regaining the energy that frees up to put to more positive use, is the biggest instant benefit to all. But dh and I are now struggling to get enough sleep. Dh has the hardest time meeting his sleep needs. He has a 9-6 day job, but feels that ds needs him at night and doesn't want to or feels like he can't leave him. (I tend to sleep with dd, night nursing being a significant factor). -=-
I don't think anyone on this list suggested that someone who works should be up with a child while the stay-at-home parent sleeps. I hope not. And I don't want this post to sit looking like a recommendation for it.
IF your son isn't old enough to stay up by himself, unattended, quietly, then he needs to go to sleep when others do. When he's older, that might change, but when your husband needs to sleep for work, that should take priority over all else. That is not arbitrary.
-=-Dh and I have already made the decision to leave behind arbitrary bedtime-=-
It should not have been a single decision to "leave behind" everything. By "arbitrary bedtime" I'm guessing you mean "8:00" or some such. But when someone needs to wake up and operate a vehicle (safety) or go to work and be alert (providing for the family), that is not AT ALL arbitrary.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
I think you created a battle of will so early on and for so long that given the opportunity you r child is probably holding back on sleep because she can.
We have tried not to create those battles in my home When they were infants they slept when they were tired.
Their sleep patterns change from time to time and it is all good.
I did always help them sleep by creating a sleep inducing environment. What I noticed is that everytime I pushed them to go to bed when they did not feel tired it had backfired and made them more likely to fight sleep. Then I would relax and things would be great.
The hardest phase was when they were moving from napping during the day to not napping. Sleep was everywhere at those times.
But I hung in there!
I have to say that this Summer I did a little pushing for my son to come to bed and he started going to bed later and later .
I wanted to go do things earlier in the day with the kids. Then I let it go and he has been coming to bed much earlier and happier.
I go to bed around 11PM and he comes to give me hugs several times until he goes to bed somewhere around 1AM. That is about the time I stop reading and go to bed myself. I guess he is a lot like me in his sleep cycle. I have gone to bed around that time most of my life ( or gone to bed earlier but did not sleep until then).
My 5 year old is done and crashing sometime between 9 and 10 PM. That is just an hour after she comes in with her dad from during chores for hours. She will ask to go to bed if she does not just pass out watching TV with us.
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
We have tried not to create those battles in my home When they were infants they slept when they were tired.
Their sleep patterns change from time to time and it is all good.
I did always help them sleep by creating a sleep inducing environment. What I noticed is that everytime I pushed them to go to bed when they did not feel tired it had backfired and made them more likely to fight sleep. Then I would relax and things would be great.
The hardest phase was when they were moving from napping during the day to not napping. Sleep was everywhere at those times.
But I hung in there!
I have to say that this Summer I did a little pushing for my son to come to bed and he started going to bed later and later .
I wanted to go do things earlier in the day with the kids. Then I let it go and he has been coming to bed much earlier and happier.
I go to bed around 11PM and he comes to give me hugs several times until he goes to bed somewhere around 1AM. That is about the time I stop reading and go to bed myself. I guess he is a lot like me in his sleep cycle. I have gone to bed around that time most of my life ( or gone to bed earlier but did not sleep until then).
My 5 year old is done and crashing sometime between 9 and 10 PM. That is just an hour after she comes in with her dad from during chores for hours. She will ask to go to bed if she does not just pass out watching TV with us.
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
-=-Giving up all the fighting, and regaining the energy that frees up to put to more positive use, is the biggest instant benefit to all. But dh and I are now struggling to get enough sleep. Dh has the hardest time meeting his sleep needs. He has a 9-6 day job, but feels that ds needs him at night and doesn't want to or feels like he can't leave him. (I tend to sleep with dd, night nursing being a significant factor). -=-
My husband get up every day of the year at 430AM to go to work. So if the kids are awake we need to be quiet so he can sleep.
Even when my kids were little we always made sure dad got his rest . Dad sleeps in another room many times or downstairs while we are upstairs, that way we
we don't bother him.
The good thing about my son going to bed about 1AM is that he can get daddy up in the middle of the night so he can check on cows that are about to deliver( we are farmers). My son even goes out with dad in the middle of the night to check on those cows. Dad loves the company .
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Thank you very much, Sandra and Alex, for your responses. I think dh needed to hear, from a voice other than mine, that asserting his own needs is not only ok, it is imperative. In his family of origin he learned that to have a shot at getting his needs met, his best bet was to try to meet everybody else's needs first. He "knows" differently now, but it is easy to get stuck in that old habit. He said that reading your responses clicked something in his brain and he saw clearly that by ignoring his own needs he isn't doing anybody much good because when he isn't sleeping, not only does He feel terrible, he isn't able to be fully present - at work, with our children, in our relationship etc.
The responses also helped me to see that with respect to sleep, we took too big a step too quickly. This link, recently given in response to a different post, describes it very well:
http://sandradodd.com/gradualchange
So many other changes we've been making have felt incredibly positive for everyone. I now understand that the gradual nature of those changes, the saying yes *more often,* allowed us all to keep our footing and gently expand our boundaries. Ds was more excited, happy, and was more wonderfully himself, if that makes sense. Dh and I felt more connected with our kids, and more on the same page with each other since we now had a clear direction. We were encouraged and in many moments thrilled.
In the light of all the other successes we were experiencing with letting go of some of our baggage and watching our children and family flourish, dh and I had faith in the idea of allowing our children to sleep when tired, instead of at a given time. Perhaps we believed in it on an intellectual level; it made sense to us for our general direction. But we didn't take enough time to sort through what would work in our family and how we could get there, nice and easy. We removed the bedtime boundaries all at once instead of gently expanding them. Unlike the other moves we had made towards unschooling, we threw ourselves into a crisis managing situation (hence my original post). We jumped in over our heads, instead of taking comfortable steps on a pleasant journey.
After pondering your responses, understanding our misstep has returned me to a greater sense of calm when I didn't even realize I had been so off balance. I hope I'm able to hold onto my learning and become more aware of the feeling that warns me when we may have strayed from our pleasant journey toward unschooling.
With much appreciation,
Mairi.
The responses also helped me to see that with respect to sleep, we took too big a step too quickly. This link, recently given in response to a different post, describes it very well:
http://sandradodd.com/gradualchange
So many other changes we've been making have felt incredibly positive for everyone. I now understand that the gradual nature of those changes, the saying yes *more often,* allowed us all to keep our footing and gently expand our boundaries. Ds was more excited, happy, and was more wonderfully himself, if that makes sense. Dh and I felt more connected with our kids, and more on the same page with each other since we now had a clear direction. We were encouraged and in many moments thrilled.
In the light of all the other successes we were experiencing with letting go of some of our baggage and watching our children and family flourish, dh and I had faith in the idea of allowing our children to sleep when tired, instead of at a given time. Perhaps we believed in it on an intellectual level; it made sense to us for our general direction. But we didn't take enough time to sort through what would work in our family and how we could get there, nice and easy. We removed the bedtime boundaries all at once instead of gently expanding them. Unlike the other moves we had made towards unschooling, we threw ourselves into a crisis managing situation (hence my original post). We jumped in over our heads, instead of taking comfortable steps on a pleasant journey.
After pondering your responses, understanding our misstep has returned me to a greater sense of calm when I didn't even realize I had been so off balance. I hope I'm able to hold onto my learning and become more aware of the feeling that warns me when we may have strayed from our pleasant journey toward unschooling.
With much appreciation,
Mairi.
Pamela Sorooshian
On Sep 25, 2011, at 4:03 PM, mairi.sasaki@... wrote:
Thinking in different words can help change attitudes and reactions.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> asserting his own needs"Asserting" is kind of strong - how about "expressing" or "keeping an eye on" or "paying some attention to" or "letting the rest of us know?"
Thinking in different words can help change attitudes and reactions.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=- We removed the bedtime boundaries all at once instead of gently expanding them.-=-
The advantage in our family was that everything happened so gradually that having a night when we pressed a child to go to sleep was an exception, and always for a good reason. The default was that kids would fall asleep when they were tired. It was quite a blessing. There was not resistance or feeling of entitlement. We didn't need to talk about it much at all, because the kids knew before they knew anything, or had any words for it, that they could sleep if they were sleepy, and eat if they were hungry. It makes a difference.
When moving from rules to choices and options, there's bound to be a backlash and adjustment period, and to involve some explanations and negotiations.
Sandra
The advantage in our family was that everything happened so gradually that having a night when we pressed a child to go to sleep was an exception, and always for a good reason. The default was that kids would fall asleep when they were tired. It was quite a blessing. There was not resistance or feeling of entitlement. We didn't need to talk about it much at all, because the kids knew before they knew anything, or had any words for it, that they could sleep if they were sleepy, and eat if they were hungry. It makes a difference.
When moving from rules to choices and options, there's bound to be a backlash and adjustment period, and to involve some explanations and negotiations.
Sandra