Outsiders' views of unschooling
Sandra Dodd
This is a quote from a child psychologist and Harvard medical
professor, in response to a reporter's questions about unschooling.
AS USUAL, a reporter has asked someone who knows nothing about
unschooling to comment on unschooling.
--------------------------------------
"Teaching is really hard. It's really hard. I don't think that just
anybody can sit down and help a child achieve their educational goals
and needs.
"There's something wonderful about the idea of just letting kids be
kids... focusing just on what they like, can do or are passionate
about," Schlozman continued. "The only thing is, they also live in the
world and the world is going to need things from them."
Schlozman said students need trained adults to help them make that
leap from what's wired in our lower brain functions (walking, talking,
eating) to higher brain functions (understanding why "To Kill A
Mockingbird" is a good book) because pre-adolescent brains lack the
capacity for abstraction.
"I would say we could stand, and would probably do better, with less
structure in education... the flip side of that though is that there
has to be a middle ground," Schlozman said. "Otherwise you end up with
a potential chaos taking the place of maximum learning."
Calls to the National Education Association for comment on unschooling
were not returned.
--------------------------------------
This is from this article. Keith sent me a link:
http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/08/03/unschooling.sudbury.education/index.html?hpt=li_c2
I've planted it here, in case any of you have people to send it to
(and they'll get other such articles there, too):
http://unschooling.blogspot.com/2011/08/cnn-article-on-unschooling-and-sudbury.html
I'll come back and comment more. Those of you newer to unschooling
might want to look at what the professional educator wrote and see
what flaws or fallacies you see in it. It's good practice for when
you're feeling cornered.
Sandra
professor, in response to a reporter's questions about unschooling.
AS USUAL, a reporter has asked someone who knows nothing about
unschooling to comment on unschooling.
--------------------------------------
"Teaching is really hard. It's really hard. I don't think that just
anybody can sit down and help a child achieve their educational goals
and needs.
"There's something wonderful about the idea of just letting kids be
kids... focusing just on what they like, can do or are passionate
about," Schlozman continued. "The only thing is, they also live in the
world and the world is going to need things from them."
Schlozman said students need trained adults to help them make that
leap from what's wired in our lower brain functions (walking, talking,
eating) to higher brain functions (understanding why "To Kill A
Mockingbird" is a good book) because pre-adolescent brains lack the
capacity for abstraction.
"I would say we could stand, and would probably do better, with less
structure in education... the flip side of that though is that there
has to be a middle ground," Schlozman said. "Otherwise you end up with
a potential chaos taking the place of maximum learning."
Calls to the National Education Association for comment on unschooling
were not returned.
--------------------------------------
This is from this article. Keith sent me a link:
http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/08/03/unschooling.sudbury.education/index.html?hpt=li_c2
I've planted it here, in case any of you have people to send it to
(and they'll get other such articles there, too):
http://unschooling.blogspot.com/2011/08/cnn-article-on-unschooling-and-sudbury.html
I'll come back and comment more. Those of you newer to unschooling
might want to look at what the professional educator wrote and see
what flaws or fallacies you see in it. It's good practice for when
you're feeling cornered.
Sandra
plaidpanties666
Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
We've been watching some old Dr Who episodes recently at home, with Morgan, and yesterday she came up to me with a book of hers - a graphic novel - and pointed out that there was a character who shared a name with one of the planets Dr Who had just visited. She's good at pulling out references like that (and cheesy sci-fi like Dr Who is Full of lierary references). She doesn't need someone to tell her why a book or show or movie is good. She knows what she likes And she knows when things are well written, well plotted, have good characters and interesting themes. It's not something that needs to be taught.
---Meredith
>> Schlozman said students need trained adults to help them make thatI remember the first time I saw the movie for To Kill a Mockingbird - I was definitely a pre-adolescent at the time and I thought it was a fantastic story. I was captivated. It was a couple years before I read the book - not for school, but for my own pleasure, and I remember being very aware that I had a whole different perspective after reading it. Generally speaking, I have a much better appreciation for books I read on my own than those I read for school. I'm glad I didn't read that book for school until I'd already enjoyed it elsewhere or I might never really have a grasp of what makes it Such a good book.
> leap from what's wired in our lower brain functions (walking, talking,
> eating) to higher brain functions (understanding why "To Kill A
> Mockingbird" is a good book) because pre-adolescent brains lack the
> capacity for abstraction.
We've been watching some old Dr Who episodes recently at home, with Morgan, and yesterday she came up to me with a book of hers - a graphic novel - and pointed out that there was a character who shared a name with one of the planets Dr Who had just visited. She's good at pulling out references like that (and cheesy sci-fi like Dr Who is Full of lierary references). She doesn't need someone to tell her why a book or show or movie is good. She knows what she likes And she knows when things are well written, well plotted, have good characters and interesting themes. It's not something that needs to be taught.
---Meredith
maryann
>>>>>>Those of you newer to unschooling
> might want to look at what the professional educator wrote and seeI'll be brave and give it a try:
> what flaws or fallacies you see in it. It's good practice for when
> you're feeling cornered.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>"Teaching is really hard. It's really hard.
>>>>>Teaching IS hard. It's especially hard when the learners are not interested or developmentally ready to learn what the teacher is trying to "teach" them. You really can't "make" someone learn if they are not willing and able at that particular moment, no matter how well-trained a teacher you are.
>>>>>>I don't think that just anybody can sit down and help a child achieve their educational goals and needs.
>>>>>>That's true. It must be a person the child is interested in working with, who respects the child as an individual and has the child's best interests at heart. The important thing he said is "their" educational goals and needs. I wonder if he meant that? Only in unschooling does a child really get to determine their own educational goals and needs.
>>>>>>>"There's something wonderful about the idea of just letting kids be
> kids... focusing just on what they like, can do or are passionateSchool takes them out of the world. School is a contrived place where someone else is deciding what, when and how each child should learn, plus how they should behave, when and where they should sit, when they should stand, what songs they should sing, when they can go to the bathroom, when they can eat, etc.
> about," Schlozman continued. "The only thing is, they also live in the world and the world is going to need things from them."
>>>>>>>
Who decides what the world is going to need from them and therefore tries to program them to be able to "give that to the world" years later? What about what THEY need from the world?
>>>>>>>Trained adults are going to help pre-adolescent brains LEAP into understanding abstract concepts which they lack the capacity for? Anyway, "To Kill a Mockingbird is a good book" is a complete matter of opinion. Forcing kids to read it and teaching them what they should abstractly think about it because they are not able to think abstractly yet 1)takes away their opportunity to think and form their own opinions (which is what really can help build brain connections) and 2)really doesn't sound possible or logical....
> Schlozman said students need trained adults to help them make that
> leap from what's wired in our lower brain functions (walking, talking,
> eating) to higher brain functions (understanding why "To Kill A
> Mockingbird" is a good book) because pre-adolescent brains lack the
> capacity for abstraction.
>>>>>>>>
That's all I'm going to take time to write, but look forward to your analysis of the article, Sandra. Learning so much here.....
Maryann
DS 5 yrs
DD 21 mos
Sandra Dodd
Maryann wrote (among other thoughtful things):
-=-Trained adults are going to help pre-adolescent brains LEAP into understanding abstract concepts which they lack the capacity for? Anyway, "To Kill a Mockingbird is a good book" is a complete matter of opinion. Forcing kids to read it and teaching them what they should abstractly think about it because they are not able to think abstractly yet 1)takes away their opportunity to think and form their own opinions (which is what really can help build brain connections) and 2)really doesn't sound possible or logical....-=-
Yeah, I thought that last one was his worst.
IF that is a good book, then it will be obvious to anyone who reads it. IF they have to be told it's a good book, and why, it's not such a great book.
And what of all the books the 'trained teacher' doesn't even know about?
And it might be a GREAT book for someone interested in race relations in the southern U.S., but a worthless, depressing, baffling book for people with other interests entirely. "Good book" isn't going to translate to other languages and other cultures anyway.
Applause for this one:
-=-Forcing kids to read it and teaching them what they should abstractly think about it because they are not able to think abstractly yet...takes away their opportunity to think and form their own opinions (which is what really can help build brain connections)-=-
Thinking CAN and does happen in and around sharing ideas, and having conversations about books, movies, paintings, ideas. But there will be less thinking and sharing if one is the teacher has a pre-conceived (or pre-published) list of what makes it good, and all else will be "not on the test" kind of trivia.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-=-Trained adults are going to help pre-adolescent brains LEAP into understanding abstract concepts which they lack the capacity for? Anyway, "To Kill a Mockingbird is a good book" is a complete matter of opinion. Forcing kids to read it and teaching them what they should abstractly think about it because they are not able to think abstractly yet 1)takes away their opportunity to think and form their own opinions (which is what really can help build brain connections) and 2)really doesn't sound possible or logical....-=-
Yeah, I thought that last one was his worst.
IF that is a good book, then it will be obvious to anyone who reads it. IF they have to be told it's a good book, and why, it's not such a great book.
And what of all the books the 'trained teacher' doesn't even know about?
And it might be a GREAT book for someone interested in race relations in the southern U.S., but a worthless, depressing, baffling book for people with other interests entirely. "Good book" isn't going to translate to other languages and other cultures anyway.
Applause for this one:
-=-Forcing kids to read it and teaching them what they should abstractly think about it because they are not able to think abstractly yet...takes away their opportunity to think and form their own opinions (which is what really can help build brain connections)-=-
Thinking CAN and does happen in and around sharing ideas, and having conversations about books, movies, paintings, ideas. But there will be less thinking and sharing if one is the teacher has a pre-conceived (or pre-published) list of what makes it good, and all else will be "not on the test" kind of trivia.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
This isn't a complete set of every thought I have about these things, just a gloss.
-=-
"Teaching is really hard. It's really hard. I don't think that just
anybody can sit down and help a child achieve their educational goals
and needs.-=-
I've been a teacher. The hardest part is having too many people in the same room who don't want to be there. The next hardest part is dealing with people who have been wounded by people like you [the teacher]. Even on a really great day, it's hard to impossible to do, say or be something ineteresting enough for even half of 25-30 people to care.
By the time a child has "educational goals and needs," he will also have figured out who can help him. And in this day and age, he will have the internet and not be limited to the people he knows in person.
-=-"There's something wonderful about the idea of just letting kids be
kids... focusing just on what they like, can do or are passionate
about," -=-
There is. There are many wonderful things.
...Schlozman continued. "The only thing is, they also live in the
world and the world is going to need things from them."-=-
"The only thing"? No.
They "also live in the world"? As though letting kids be kids is not part of this world. As though focus on what they are passionate about is not of this world.
"The world is going to need things from them."
Not true. The world needs nothing from me. Sometimes I do something that helps someone else, but the world existed before I was born, would have existed if I had died anywhere along here, and will exist after I'm dead.
Some businesses offer money in exchange for skills and services, presence and labor. If a person needs that money, and strikes a deal with a hiring owner/supervisor to work in exchange for money, or to sell services by the hour, or to perform, or repair, or create, then one person might be really glad to have something from that one other person. Those deals come and go in people's lifetimes. Few people have only worked one single job their entire lives, birth to death. Maybe owners of farms, or someone whose parents own a business. Even then, the tasks change from teen years to retirement.
I don't think "the world is going to need things from them" is a clear view of the purpose of learning and of growth, or of the world and its "needs."
-=-"I would say we could stand, and would probably do better, with less
structure in education... the flip side of that though is that there
has to be a middle ground," Schlozman said. "Otherwise you end up with
a potential chaos taking the place of maximum learning."-=-
If the two extremes are chaos and maximum learning, school is somewhere in there in the middle. And unschooling might be in there too, but without as much chaos as school, and often with more learning than school provides for an individual.
Sandra
-=-
"Teaching is really hard. It's really hard. I don't think that just
anybody can sit down and help a child achieve their educational goals
and needs.-=-
I've been a teacher. The hardest part is having too many people in the same room who don't want to be there. The next hardest part is dealing with people who have been wounded by people like you [the teacher]. Even on a really great day, it's hard to impossible to do, say or be something ineteresting enough for even half of 25-30 people to care.
By the time a child has "educational goals and needs," he will also have figured out who can help him. And in this day and age, he will have the internet and not be limited to the people he knows in person.
-=-"There's something wonderful about the idea of just letting kids be
kids... focusing just on what they like, can do or are passionate
about," -=-
There is. There are many wonderful things.
...Schlozman continued. "The only thing is, they also live in the
world and the world is going to need things from them."-=-
"The only thing"? No.
They "also live in the world"? As though letting kids be kids is not part of this world. As though focus on what they are passionate about is not of this world.
"The world is going to need things from them."
Not true. The world needs nothing from me. Sometimes I do something that helps someone else, but the world existed before I was born, would have existed if I had died anywhere along here, and will exist after I'm dead.
Some businesses offer money in exchange for skills and services, presence and labor. If a person needs that money, and strikes a deal with a hiring owner/supervisor to work in exchange for money, or to sell services by the hour, or to perform, or repair, or create, then one person might be really glad to have something from that one other person. Those deals come and go in people's lifetimes. Few people have only worked one single job their entire lives, birth to death. Maybe owners of farms, or someone whose parents own a business. Even then, the tasks change from teen years to retirement.
I don't think "the world is going to need things from them" is a clear view of the purpose of learning and of growth, or of the world and its "needs."
-=-"I would say we could stand, and would probably do better, with less
structure in education... the flip side of that though is that there
has to be a middle ground," Schlozman said. "Otherwise you end up with
a potential chaos taking the place of maximum learning."-=-
If the two extremes are chaos and maximum learning, school is somewhere in there in the middle. And unschooling might be in there too, but without as much chaos as school, and often with more learning than school provides for an individual.
Sandra
Jay Ford
Some days I think it would be eye opening to let one of these educated educators with lots of letters after their name sit in a room full of always unschooled teens for a day without telling him or her they are unschooled, until the day is almost over. Let them experience the interest and passion of these kids, and how engaging and articulate and comfortable they are. Then stick them in a room full of always schooled teens. Maybe then they would realize the full potential of unschooling.
Not one person who has ever met my kids have thought they are unintelligent, backwards, ignorant, or educationally stifled. My 16 year old daughter has been in England all summer meeting all kinds of people. Not one has cared that she has never been to school; it doesn't come up at all. My almost 13 yr old son just spent the better part of an hour having a nice conversation with a 90-yr-old man in a doctor's office waiting room (while I was in the appt with my mother), later to be told by that gentleman that my son was a fine young man.
Unschooling works.
Sometimes I still have to beat my head against the wall with family members who still don't get it, who feel robbed that they did not get to experience school plays with their grand kids (??) or discuss how school is going. Why not just experience who they are as people? Why is that so hard? There are no other grandchildren to compare mine to.
Jon
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Not one person who has ever met my kids have thought they are unintelligent, backwards, ignorant, or educationally stifled. My 16 year old daughter has been in England all summer meeting all kinds of people. Not one has cared that she has never been to school; it doesn't come up at all. My almost 13 yr old son just spent the better part of an hour having a nice conversation with a 90-yr-old man in a doctor's office waiting room (while I was in the appt with my mother), later to be told by that gentleman that my son was a fine young man.
Unschooling works.
Sometimes I still have to beat my head against the wall with family members who still don't get it, who feel robbed that they did not get to experience school plays with their grand kids (??) or discuss how school is going. Why not just experience who they are as people? Why is that so hard? There are no other grandchildren to compare mine to.
Jon
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Some days I think it would be eye opening to let one of these educated educators with lots of letters after their name sit in a room full of always unschooled teens for a day without telling him or her they are unschooled, until the day is almost over. Let them experience the interest and passion of these kids, and how engaging and articulate and comfortable they are. Then stick them in a room full of always schooled teens. Maybe then they would realize the full potential of unschooling.-=-
I was at the HSC conference the year Jane Healy spoke. (I had forgotten her name, but asked on facebook.) She had been picked up at the airport by unschooled teens, and was really impressed with them and said so, something like that she had never met kids like that. And they were probably living exactly in the way she was taking money to say would RUIN people FOR LIFE!!! (She wrote a book about how computers and tv viewing re-wire babies and childrens' brains, though it seems absolutely baseless and crazy to me. "Endangered Minds: Why Children Don't Think And What We Can Do About It")
Here's a scan of candid, spontaneous (unsolicited) praise of Kirby, when he was 19, nearly 20, and working at a pizza place.
http://sandradodd.com/scan/kirbydionsfixup.jpg
The best part is
"I run the co-op program for Silver High School and am always observing young adults at work. Kirby is definitely an asset to your organization. Please let him know that his optimistic attitude and willingness to help customers made my day. It was nice to see someone who truly enjoyed his job!"
(Only she misspelled "attitude.")
I think if she had known he had never been to school she would have been less eager to praise him to his bosses, in writing.
One very cool thing about that letter is that the day it had been put up on the bulletin board in the office of the place he worked, we were having lunch there with my in-laws. And it was right across the parking lot from an office store, so Kirby brought it to show us, and I walked across and made copies so he could put the original back on the board. The grandparents got one to keep, the day it was new. That was nice.
Sandra
I was at the HSC conference the year Jane Healy spoke. (I had forgotten her name, but asked on facebook.) She had been picked up at the airport by unschooled teens, and was really impressed with them and said so, something like that she had never met kids like that. And they were probably living exactly in the way she was taking money to say would RUIN people FOR LIFE!!! (She wrote a book about how computers and tv viewing re-wire babies and childrens' brains, though it seems absolutely baseless and crazy to me. "Endangered Minds: Why Children Don't Think And What We Can Do About It")
Here's a scan of candid, spontaneous (unsolicited) praise of Kirby, when he was 19, nearly 20, and working at a pizza place.
http://sandradodd.com/scan/kirbydionsfixup.jpg
The best part is
"I run the co-op program for Silver High School and am always observing young adults at work. Kirby is definitely an asset to your organization. Please let him know that his optimistic attitude and willingness to help customers made my day. It was nice to see someone who truly enjoyed his job!"
(Only she misspelled "attitude.")
I think if she had known he had never been to school she would have been less eager to praise him to his bosses, in writing.
One very cool thing about that letter is that the day it had been put up on the bulletin board in the office of the place he worked, we were having lunch there with my in-laws. And it was right across the parking lot from an office store, so Kirby brought it to show us, and I walked across and made copies so he could put the original back on the board. The grandparents got one to keep, the day it was new. That was nice.
Sandra
Bob Collier
--- In [email protected], Jay Ford <jay.ford79@...> wrote:
Bob
>I have a possibly unusual comparison in my own experience between my now grown up daughter, who went to school and then on to university, and my teenage son, who dropped out of school after two years of growing unhappiness. I enjoyed all my daughter's school plays and prize givings and the rest, and her seven graduation ceremonies so far (at least one more to come when she completes her LL.M.), and I could paper a wall with her awards and certificates. Her brother, on the other hand, doesn't have any. He's spent the past eight years mostly playing videogames. It's all been such a wonderful adventure though it would never have occurred to me to feel robbed of anything. It's interesting how that's all worked out and, yes, I think my wife and I wanting our children to be who they are is why such a contrast has seemed to us to be a perfectly natural eventuation.
>
>
> Sometimes I still have to beat my head against the wall with family members who still don't get it, who feel robbed that they did not get to experience school plays with their grand kids (??) or discuss how school is going. Why not just experience who they are as people? Why is that so hard? There are no other grandchildren to compare mine to.
>
>
Bob
plaidpanties666
Jay Ford <jay.ford79@> wrote:
I had a moment at the end of the last school year when some friends of mine were telling me about the awards their kids had won that year - not "academic" awards, but "Most creative" for one and the other got a kind of gag award for "most different" or something like that. The pain-in-the-butt kid award. My friends are quirky, so they were proud of both.
Over the summer, though, Mo got a notice that one of the (many) drawings and photos she sent to magazines over the past year is going to appear in the "letters from readers" section. She was thrilled and I was thrilled... but at the same time I had a moment of feeling like I could check off that little box in my head next to "my kid just won X at school".
---Meredith
> > Sometimes I still have to beat my head against the wall with family members who still don't get it, who feel robbed that they did not get to experience school plays with their grand kids (??) or discuss how school is going.*****************
I had a moment at the end of the last school year when some friends of mine were telling me about the awards their kids had won that year - not "academic" awards, but "Most creative" for one and the other got a kind of gag award for "most different" or something like that. The pain-in-the-butt kid award. My friends are quirky, so they were proud of both.
Over the summer, though, Mo got a notice that one of the (many) drawings and photos she sent to magazines over the past year is going to appear in the "letters from readers" section. She was thrilled and I was thrilled... but at the same time I had a moment of feeling like I could check off that little box in my head next to "my kid just won X at school".
---Meredith
Sandra Dodd
Jay Ford <jay.ford79@> wrote:
You don't "have to."
You shouldn't.
They don't need to get it for you to do it.
Beating anyone's anything against anything detracts from the peace and happiness that will help unschooling AND family relations.
http://sandradodd.com/haveto
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > Sometimes I still have to beat my head against the wall with family members who still don't get it, who feel robbed that they did not get to experience school plays with their grand kids (??) or discuss how school is going.*****************
You don't "have to."
You shouldn't.
They don't need to get it for you to do it.
Beating anyone's anything against anything detracts from the peace and happiness that will help unschooling AND family relations.
http://sandradodd.com/haveto
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]