Schuyler

I got sent this off list. I've removed the name of the person who posted it to
me, but I figured it would be better being discussed in the open than in a
private series of e-mails.


Schuyler



There is always tomorrow and yes my kids have the same fits mine even say they
will die if they don't get to play the computer. If you give in to him once you
set up a pattern of continually giving in to him. They will wake up tomorrow
and be refreshed. Sometimes it is good to just talk to them and explain the
next day how busy you were and how tired he was after such a long fun filled day
and that we can't always do everything, there is always tomorrow. They
eventually get the picture. It's just that we have to weather the storm in the
process. Nobody told us there would be days like this, but it does get better.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

> If you give in to him once you
> set up a pattern of continually giving in to him.

If you see your relationship as adversaries with you on the side of
right behavior and them on the side of desire for emotional
indulgence, then that is what will happen.

If instead of "giving in" you help them find ways to do what they want
in ways that are respectful of others then you become partners and
grow a better relationship with them. A relationship where they feel
your ideas are directed at helping them navigate the world rather than
confining them to behavior that you feel is right.

> They will wake up tomorrow
> and be refreshed


Or if they had played the game they could wake up with memories of
wonderful accomplishments. Or still be up. Or be tired and grumpy
because they pushed their limits.

But by deciding that they need to conform to your idea that sleep is
more valuable than play, they don't get to explore the good parts and
bad parts of their choices. They don't get to decide for themselves
what *they* value. What they get are rules to memorize: Sleep is more
important than play. Mom's idea of what is right is better than my
idea of what is right. It rocks to have the power to make people
behave the way you think is right. It sucks not to have that power.

In fact your whole post is full of rules that you've memorized about
how to behave right in the world. We can't know what the world our
kids will be living in will be like. We can't hand them rules for
what's right and what's wrong. We can, though, help them explore the
world in safe ways so they can make thoughtful choices and decide for
themselves what they value and what is less important to them.

> Sometimes it is good to just talk to them and explain the
> next day how busy you were and how tired he was after such a long
> fun filled day
> and that we can't always do everything,


When this is true, it's obvious (like when rain cancels a picnic) and
doesn't need explained.

When it's your decision to prevent them from doing what they want and
to make them do what you want, then it feels like it needs explained.

But your certainty that you're right doesn't make it universally
right. They aren't necessarily understanding what you think you're
explaining. The lesson they're very likely picking up is that your
agenda is more important than their feelings and you get to force your
agenda on them because you have the power to do so.


> They
> eventually get the picture.


They eventually learn that they can't always get help from you to do
what they want. They learn that you get to decide what you want to
help them with and otherwise will give them a lecture on why they're
wrong to want what they want.

What you set up by doing that is a relationship where they may ask you
first since you're convenient, but if you say no to something they
feel is important to them, they'll go around you. Or find someone else
to help. Someone that may not have their best interest in mind so
won't care if they're finding safe ways to do it.


> It's just that we have to weather the storm in the
> process. Nobody told us there would be days like this, but it does
> get better.



What's your definition of better?

If kids give up asking, knowing you won't say yes, that's more
convenient but not necessarily better. It *seems* like you've "fixed"
them so they no longer have the wants and desires you don't approve
of. That's an illusion. Some of the wants and desires will go away
because they get older. But the lack, the emptiness will stay with
them. Some of the wants and desires they will hide from you because
you've taught them you will react negatively to them and they'll find
other ways to meet them.

Your "better" will mean their relationship with you won't be a strong
as it would be if they saw you as a partner who will help them find
safe and respectful ways to meet their needs. It means they will see
you as a gate that opens and closes based on your feelings and in
disregard to theirs.

Joyce





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Cara Barlow

" If you give in to him once you set up a pattern of continually giving in
to him. "

You're using the slippery slope argument, which is a logical fallacy <
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/slippery-slope.html>

People use the slippery slope argument to justify doing what *they* want to
do, not because it has any real-life applicability. That sentence also
describes your way of relating to your child as adversarial - it reads as if
you think he's going to take advantage of you. Just something to think
about.

My daughters are 13 and 15. They're both in a production of MacBeth.
Yesterday I was at work, so another parent drove them to the dress rehearsal
at 1:30 and then the show was at 6:00pm.

The parent that brought them home was an over an hour late picking them up -
when I got home from work last night at 9:30 they still weren't home.

The girls commuted 35 minutes to get to rehearsal, rehearsed/performed for
6.5 hours with a dinner break, waited for over an hour for their ride to get
there, then commuted 35 minutes to get home. All of this on a day when the
temperature was in the 90s.

When they did get home at 10pm after that long, hot, intense day, the first
thing they wanted to do was take a shower, then Anna (15) wanted to be by
herself to play WoW and talk with her online friends, and Molly (13) wanted
to watch Battlestar Galactica with me. It's how they wanted to decompress.

So that's what we did. I brought Anna a snack and a cold ginger
ale/pomegranate juice drink while she played WoW and chatted with her online
friends in an upstairs room by herself. Then I went downstairs and watched
two episodes of Battlestar Galactica with Molly while she ate a Popsicle. I
fell asleep on the couch for a little bit.

The world didn't end because they were up playing computer games and
watching TV after a long hot, demanding day - it was actually content and
happy. It was what they needed to do.

Everyone went to bed around midnight. The girls slept until about 9 this
morning. They have another show tonight that I'll be able to attend, and
I'll be the driver tonight, so everyone will get home on time <g>.

Best wishes, Cara


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Schuyler

>>"There is always tomorrow "<<

There is a comic book called Asterix and Obelix. It's French, or Gaulish. One of
the characters, the mayor, Chief Vitalstatistix, says that the sky may fall on
his head tomorrow, and adds but tomorrow never comes. Tomorrow is a fairy tale
future event. Today, now, this moment, that's what you've got. If you want
things to be better with your children, work for now, work for this minute.
Don't wait for tomorrow.


>>and yes my kids have the same fits<<

That would suggest that what you and the original poster are doing is something
similarly not working. Simon and Linnaea have both lost their temper, have both
been unhappy, but I wouldn't say there were having a fit. A fit suggests
something sudden and with no reasonable cause. Like a seizure. Although seizures
are supposed to be more likely under stress. Maybe it is an apt term.


If you are working to help someone to make things better it helps to have
something that makes it better in your own home. If all you can offer is
commiseration, it may be better to read what people are offering that has
improved their own relationships.


>>mine even say they will die if they don't get to play the computer. <<

That's a really powerless person hoping that you will care enough to help.
Goodness. Saying that you will die if you don't have something is a last ditch
effort to try and get some sympathy, some support. Linnaea used to get really
upset with Simon when he wouldn't do what she wanted him to do and would
threaten to hurt herself or him. Simon, when he got really upset, would threaten
to kill himself. I didn't belittle them. I didn't hush them. I did what I could
do to help them feel better. Sometimes that was just sitting in the same room
with them. Sometimes that was fixing them something to eat or getting them a
drink. Sometimes it was cuddling them while they cried. Sometimes it was so hard
not to just break down and cry, to take their unhappiness personally. Sometimes
I failed and took it personally. Each time I went that route they stayed
miserable so much longer. I'd added so much more weight to their unhappiness
with the burden of my hurt feelings that it took longer for them to find a way
out of being miserable.


>>If you give in to him once you
set up a pattern of continually giving in to him.<<

Giving in to someone is not about working hand in hand, side by side, to make a
fantastic life together. Giving in means that you hold the cards and get to
decide which ones he gets to play. Giving in argues that you and he aren't on
the same side.


Continually is always. It is every moment. It is all moments. It is yesterday
and today and tomorrow. Maybe continually giving in could be worded a different
way. Instead of continually giving in it becomes working together to meet goals
and desires. So helping your son to play on the computer game that he saved up
his allowance to pay for by feeding him at the computer and letting him shower
in the morning. Or just washing his hands and face and feet where he's sitting.
Or not worrying too much about a 6.5 year old being dirty.


>>They will wake up tomorrow
and be refreshed.<<

Not if they went to bed angry and resentful and not tired yet. Sometimes they'll
just wake up pissed off still. And not trusting you more.


>>Nobody told us there would be days like this, but it does get better.<<

I bet you lots of people told you. The parent who wished that you would have a
child just like you. The parents who you watched on television growing up, Cosby
or Roseanne or Happy Days. Lots of people told you that sometimes a parent has
to hold the line against a child for the child's own good. I'm telling you that
it doesn't have to be like that. Even in moments when it feels really, really
hard. If you can see yourself as your children's partner, advocate, helpmate, it
will go a long way to making the moments fewer and easier to move through.


Schuyler

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

sheeboo2

----- If you give in to him once you set up a pattern of continually giving in to him.----

This comment reminds me, maybe because I grew up in the region, of what Israelis who don't want to negotiate with Palestinians use as their excuse. A common, and shudder-worthy idiom is, "Offer a hand and they'll take your whole arm." I'd hate thinking of my relationship with my daughter in terms used for bloody conflicts.

Just think how different world conflict resolution could be if people saw each other as equally deserving of freedoms, shelter, food, love, safety, pleasure......(the saying, "It starts at home....." comes to mind)

Connie, another member of this group, often talks about how children are the most marginalized population in our culture because they have absolutely NO rights or power whatsoever (http://mystifiedmom.blogspot.com/2011/07/human-rights-question.html). If the saying, "We're all in this together" only works for parents bemoaning their children's unreasonable/unworthy requests, but comes nowhere near including children themselves in the "All/together," I don't see how unschooling is possible.

---- They eventually get the picture. It's just that we have to weather the storm in the
process. ----

Right, like a baby left alone to cry it out eventually learns that her parents won't come to sooth her pain; she learns that she's on her own and that her needs and wants aren't important or worthy of her parents' support. That isn't the kind of picture I want engraved in my daughter's psyche.

Brie

sheeboo2

----This comment reminds me, maybe because I grew up in the region, of what Israelis
who don't want to negotiate with Palestinians use as their excuse. A common, and
shudder-worthy idiom is, "Offer a hand and they'll take your whole arm." I'd
hate thinking of my relationship with my daughter in terms used for bloody
conflicts.------

I realize that Palestinian/Israeli metaphors probably aren't that helpful for most folks, so I apologize for the muddiness of that knee-jerk reaction.

Instead, try out the OP's claim, "If you give in to him once you set up a pattern of continually giving in to him" by changing the statement to:

"If you give in to a women once, you set up a pattern of continually giving in to her"

Or,

"If you give in to a black/yellow/purple/green/gay/christian/jewish/muslim once, you set up a pattern of continually giving in to them."

These are the kind of statements people make when they believe that one group is better and more deserving than another, and that one group has more intrinsic rights than another.

Brie

Sandra Dodd

The side-mail below was sent to Schuyler by mistake, I'm assuming. It's very irritating.

People join this list to read about unschooling, and to ask questions of experienced unschoolers, NOT to be encouraged in private on the side to ignore unschoolers.

If I had received that e-mail myself, I would have removed the sender from the list, but Schuyler's nicer than I am and probably didn't.

----------------------------
There is always tomorrow and yes my kids have the same fits mine even say they
will die if they don't get to play the computer. If you give in to him once you
set up a pattern of continually giving in to him. They will wake up tomorrow
and be refreshed. Sometimes it is good to just talk to them and explain the
next day how busy you were and how tired he was after such a long fun filled day
and that we can't always do everything, there is always tomorrow. They
eventually get the picture. It's just that we have to weather the storm in the
process. Nobody told us there would be days like this, but it does get better.
----------------------------

Speaking in cliches, in other people's words and phrases, is not a good use of the time of the readers of the Always Learning list.
A string of comments like this could have been robot-generated.

There is always tomorrow (twice)
If you give in to him once ...
They eventually get the picture.
Nobody told us there would be days like this, but it does get better.

If that's the best someone has to offer, it should be kept quiet.

"There is always tomorrow."

There is NO guarantee that a child will be living tomorrow, nor that the mother will. There is NOT "always tomorrow." One of these days will be the last.

The guidelines for this list, which some people read and others think don't apply to them say:

ALL posts should be
honest
proofread
sincere
clear
And there's more. http://sandradodd.com/lists/alwayslearningPOSTS

This is adversarial: "If you give in to him once ..."

If your child is the enemy or the trickster in your mind, unschooling won't work.

-=-They eventually get the picture.-=-

"The picture?" What is the picture, then? That mothers get their way and children should just give up?
The picture, on this list, is of a peaceful unschooling life. I hope the person who posted the anti-child lump of writing above will eventually get that picture.

-=-Nobody told us there would be days like this, but it does get better.-=-

Treating children disdainfully does not make children's lives better.

-=-Sometimes it is good to just talk to them and explain the
next day how busy you were and how tired he was -=-

If you explain to a child how he felt, how will he learn for himself?
If you explain the next day what happened, and you are incorrect and delusional and you're justifying selfish, bad, disdainful behavior, the child will understand more about the parent than the parent understands about the child.

-=- They eventually get the picture. It's just that we have to weather the storm in the process.-=-

Children's needs are not "the storm." Advice for parents to do whatever selfish thing they want and then to endure until the child is finished trying to reason and appeal is NOT welcome on this list. It will take people in the opposite direction from being compassionate, mindful parents.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

diana lea jenner

And what about the kids who know (as ALL ADULTS know) there just might NOT
be a tomorrow?
Why not do what it takes to foster JOY in today?
Now is truly all we have.
~diana :)
xoxoxoxo
hannahbearski.wordpress.com
hannahsashes.blogspot.com


On Fri, Jul 22, 2011 at 7:26 AM, Schuyler <s.waynforth@...>wrote:

> **
>
>
> I got sent this off list. I've removed the name of the person who posted it
> to
> me, but I figured it would be better being discussed in the open than in a
> private series of e-mails.
>
> Schuyler
>
> There is always tomorrow and yes my kids have the same fits mine even say
> they
> will die if they don't get to play the computer. If you give in to him once
> you
> set up a pattern of continually giving in to him. They will wake up
> tomorrow
> and be refreshed. Sometimes it is good to just talk to them and explain the
>
> next day how busy you were and how tired he was after such a long fun
> filled day
> and that we can't always do everything, there is always tomorrow. They
> eventually get the picture. It's just that we have to weather the storm in
> the
> process. Nobody told us there would be days like this, but it does get
> better.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]