Unschooling ideas
Heidi
I have a few questions about unschooling.
What are some of your favorite books to jumpstart homeschooling? I liked that somebody stated to find books on parenting, rather than "how to school". I want to spend time this summer (hopefully!) in some good, inspiring books. However, I have to admit that really deep books will lose me because I only have brief times to read, with a lot of lapses before my next time to read, and deep stuff will be lost or I will be constantly re-reading! LOL!
What is a good plan for a day for a family just starting to unschool? I have been trying to just de-brief, relax, look for signals from the kids of what their direction of interest might be, etc. I think they are struggling to figure out what REALLY is an interest to them.
Thanks for ideas--which I really enjoy, whether it is related to schooling, gardening, crafting, etc.--I love to learn new things. Now, if I can interest my KIDS to feel that way without being suspicious! LOL!
Heidi
What are some of your favorite books to jumpstart homeschooling? I liked that somebody stated to find books on parenting, rather than "how to school". I want to spend time this summer (hopefully!) in some good, inspiring books. However, I have to admit that really deep books will lose me because I only have brief times to read, with a lot of lapses before my next time to read, and deep stuff will be lost or I will be constantly re-reading! LOL!
What is a good plan for a day for a family just starting to unschool? I have been trying to just de-brief, relax, look for signals from the kids of what their direction of interest might be, etc. I think they are struggling to figure out what REALLY is an interest to them.
Thanks for ideas--which I really enjoy, whether it is related to schooling, gardening, crafting, etc.--I love to learn new things. Now, if I can interest my KIDS to feel that way without being suspicious! LOL!
Heidi
Sandra Dodd
-=-What are some of your favorite books to jumpstart homeschooling?-=-
Used to be Teach Your Own by John Holt, but it's quite outdated now, and the updated one (reedited by someone else) isn't better than the original.
I think the webpages are better than any one book. Joyce's, mine, blogs of unschoolers.
For beginners I have a couple of starting places:
http://sandradodd.com/beginning
http://sandradodd.com/help
-=-What is a good plan for a day for a family just starting to unschool? I have been trying to just de-brief, relax, look for signals from the kids of what their direction of interest might be, etc. I think they are struggling to figure out what REALLY is an interest to them. -=-
There's not reason for anyone to identify a "real" interest or a direction. Explore the things, places, ideas, tastes, smells and sounds around you right now. Make connections. Someone with no "direction of interest" can still learn a million things without struggle. Don't leave your children to struggle.
http://sandradodd.com/nest
http://sandradodd.com/partners
-=-I love to learn new things. Now, if I can interest my KIDS to feel that way without being suspicious! LOL!-=-
Don't try to interest them in learning new things.
Make life peaceful and interesting. You learn with them, rather than you having your own activities, looking over your shoulder wishing they would have their own.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Used to be Teach Your Own by John Holt, but it's quite outdated now, and the updated one (reedited by someone else) isn't better than the original.
I think the webpages are better than any one book. Joyce's, mine, blogs of unschoolers.
For beginners I have a couple of starting places:
http://sandradodd.com/beginning
http://sandradodd.com/help
-=-What is a good plan for a day for a family just starting to unschool? I have been trying to just de-brief, relax, look for signals from the kids of what their direction of interest might be, etc. I think they are struggling to figure out what REALLY is an interest to them. -=-
There's not reason for anyone to identify a "real" interest or a direction. Explore the things, places, ideas, tastes, smells and sounds around you right now. Make connections. Someone with no "direction of interest" can still learn a million things without struggle. Don't leave your children to struggle.
http://sandradodd.com/nest
http://sandradodd.com/partners
-=-I love to learn new things. Now, if I can interest my KIDS to feel that way without being suspicious! LOL!-=-
Don't try to interest them in learning new things.
Make life peaceful and interesting. You learn with them, rather than you having your own activities, looking over your shoulder wishing they would have their own.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Chris Sanders
> I have a few questions about unschooling.Sandra Dodd's Big Book of Unschooling is a great book to read in short snippets and has lots of parenting and unschooling inspiration! http://sandradodd.com/bigbook/
>
> What are some of your favorite books to jumpstart homeschooling? I liked that somebody stated to find books on parenting, rather than "how to school". I want to spend time this summer (hopefully!) in some good, inspiring books. However, I have to admit that really deep books will lose me because I only have brief times to read, with a lot of lapses before my next time to read, and deep stuff will be lost or I will be constantly re-reading! LOL!
>
How old are your kids? If they're 8 or older you might enjoy "Parent Teen Breakthrough: The Relationship Approach" by Mira Kirshenbaum and Charles Foster. http://www.amazon.com/Parent-Teen-Breakthrough-Relationship-Approach/dp/0452266165
Others will probably have more ideas.
>Play games together -- board games, card games, word games, video games - whatever they seem to enjoy. Watch movies together, surf YouTube for funny videos, cute animal videos, old music videos -- whatever they might enjoy. Go places together -- Is it spring weather where you are? Get out together -- take a hike, go to public gardens, do geocaching, go to science centers/museums, spring festivals, concerts, farmer's markets etc.
> What is a good plan for a day for a family just starting to unschool? I have been trying to just de-brief, relax, look for signals from the kids of what their direction of interest might be, etc. I think they are struggling to figure out what REALLY is an interest to them.
>
>Be aware that some kids need some time to cocoon, hang out at home and decompress, especially if they're just coming out of school. They may need some time to deschool - the general rule thumb is at least one month for each year they were schooled -- even counting structured HOME schooling. During this time is a good time for you to read and research about unschooling, find other local unschoolers to connect with, make easy-to-eat, tasty foods for your kids to enjoy when their hungry. Work on finding ways to say "yes" more to your kids and yourself for that matter. "Read a little, try a little, wait a while, watch." http://sandradodd.com/unschooling
> Thanks for ideas--which I really enjoy, whether it is related to schooling, gardening, crafting, etc.--I love to learn new things. Now, if I can interest my KIDS to feel that way without being suspicious! LOL!
>
>
>
Chris
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
semajrak
> What are some of your favorite books to jumpstart homeschooling?A couple of my favourite books have been:
Sandra's Big Book of Unschooling and Rue Kream's Parenting a Free Child. Blogs are really great too.
> What is a good plan for a day for a family just starting to unschool? I have been trying to just de-brief, relax, look for signals from the kids of what their direction of interest might be, etc. I think they are struggling to figure out what REALLY is an interest to them.I think choosing to be with your children is really important in building a connection that allows learning to happen without much effort. I don't mean leading your children's play, or leaving your children to play while you make yourself available while you pursue your interests. I tried both of those and found I lost my connection with my son each time. What works well for me, is to really get in there and be with him...play his games with him the way he likes to play them, so that I can understand what he is doing and why. Then I can add to our days things that might lead us on tangents relative to where we are. For example, recently we have been playing Minecraft together. He loves the mining. He gets so excited when he finds gold, diamond and obsidian. The next time we stopped briefly at the library, I asked if he wanted to look at books with gold, diamond and obsidian in them. He literally jumped up and down with excitement at that idea, and we ended up taking out a huge stack of books on all kinds of mining and earth related topics. He picked them all out, although we searched for them together. At home I left them on tables, where he and I look at them when we were eating, or transitioning, or whatever. Later, we watched a video about volcanos, and looked through a collection of rocks in a box that I have been adding to over the years which included lava rock, basalt, obsidian and pumice. Again, he was thrilled, but none of this wouldn't have worked if I had chosen some topic without knowing where his interests were. This also wouldn't have happened if I hadn't spent a good amount of time mining with him :)
> Thanks for ideas--which I really enjoy, whether it is related to schooling, gardening, crafting, etc.--I love to learn new things. Now, if I can interest my KIDS to feel that way without being suspicious! LOL!What has been difficult for me is to accept that the things I find really interesting might not interest my son in the same way they do me. I love painting and drawing, and for a long time I would try to get him to join me, my way, in these activities. It never really worked. Recently, my son went into my art room and sat at the table drawing pages of game tiles and plans for a game he was making up. Again, there were many different kinds of rocks and minerals and textures related to our recent interests. The tiles were so detailed and interestingly laid out on the page. He saw me, and excitedly asked me if I wanted to draw with him - his way. In accepting this, I learned more about what he was seeing and thinking than I ever could have (or did) trying to get him to draw or paint something I planned for him. And, I discovered he does like to draw - his things, his way! I suspect the same is very true for your kids. They will really enjoy what *they* really enjoy, especially when they know you support them and might even join them!
Karen.
Deb Lewis
***I think the webpages are better than any one book. Joyce's, mine, blogs of unschoolers.***
Yes, especially if you don't have a lot of time to read. Look around for unschooling blogs and bookmark the ones you really like. You don't need to spend extra money or remember where you left the book!
If you must have a book in your hands, "Parenting a Free Child: An Unschooled Life", by Rue Kream is very nice. Easy to read in snippets and easy to jump around in and not get lost.
***What is a good plan for a day for a family just starting to unschool?***
Do things you already know your kids like to do. Play in the yard? Do that. Ride bikes? Do that. Bake cookies? Do that.
Offer other fun things related to what they already like, give them more of what they love.
***I love to learn new things. Now, if I can interest my KIDS to feel that way without being suspicious! LOL!***
Your kids already love to learn! Your challenge (if you choose to accept it<g>) will be to not squelch that love. Don't create stress. Don't turn life into lessons. Don't push them toward things they clearly don't want or stand between them and the things they love. Be positive and interested and help them have fun.
Deb Lewis
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Yes, especially if you don't have a lot of time to read. Look around for unschooling blogs and bookmark the ones you really like. You don't need to spend extra money or remember where you left the book!
If you must have a book in your hands, "Parenting a Free Child: An Unschooled Life", by Rue Kream is very nice. Easy to read in snippets and easy to jump around in and not get lost.
***What is a good plan for a day for a family just starting to unschool?***
Do things you already know your kids like to do. Play in the yard? Do that. Ride bikes? Do that. Bake cookies? Do that.
Offer other fun things related to what they already like, give them more of what they love.
***I love to learn new things. Now, if I can interest my KIDS to feel that way without being suspicious! LOL!***
Your kids already love to learn! Your challenge (if you choose to accept it<g>) will be to not squelch that love. Don't create stress. Don't turn life into lessons. Don't push them toward things they clearly don't want or stand between them and the things they love. Be positive and interested and help them have fun.
Deb Lewis
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
plaidpanties666
"Heidi" <hotcoolings@...> wrote:
It's okay to suggest things, too, but fun things. Have a movie marathon. Go window shopping. Go skating or bowling or to a pool (or pool hall... hard to find any in my area that aren't bars, but maybe you'll have better luck). Play miniature golf. Look around for touristy things to do in your area and do them for the fun of it. Go to a coffee-shop and people watch. Go to a pet shop and look at all the exotic fish and birds and snakes and creepy-crawlies. Get a new Lego kit.
Don't worry about "what Really is an interest" - interests can be big and deep and passionate but they can also be fleeting. Its not bad to dabble. If your kids have been stuck in school they may need time to dabble with the assurance they don't need to finish what they start or stick something through.
What do you read for entertainment? That seems like its a non-sequitur, but it could be better to step away from "how to" and touch base with your own personal interests. I like to read trashy fantasy novels and it took me awhile to feel good about that - in a sense, I had to "deschool" that part of me that believed "smart girls read serious literature". But letting go of that idea helped me let go of wanting to push "literature" at my kids and instead value what They want to read or watch or play.
But all that being said, Sandra Dodd's Big Book of Unschooling is a good one to pick up and put down *and* a great source of ideas, information and inspiration.
http://sandradodd.com/bigbook/
Another easy unschooling read is Rue Kream's Parenting a Free Child- its in a Q&A format, which again makes it easy to pick up and put down:
http://www.freechild.info/
---Meredith
>> What is a good plan for a day for a family just starting to unschool? I have been trying to just de-brief, relax, look for signals from the kids of what their direction of interest might be, etc. I think they are struggling to figure out what REALLY is an interest to them.********************
It's okay to suggest things, too, but fun things. Have a movie marathon. Go window shopping. Go skating or bowling or to a pool (or pool hall... hard to find any in my area that aren't bars, but maybe you'll have better luck). Play miniature golf. Look around for touristy things to do in your area and do them for the fun of it. Go to a coffee-shop and people watch. Go to a pet shop and look at all the exotic fish and birds and snakes and creepy-crawlies. Get a new Lego kit.
Don't worry about "what Really is an interest" - interests can be big and deep and passionate but they can also be fleeting. Its not bad to dabble. If your kids have been stuck in school they may need time to dabble with the assurance they don't need to finish what they start or stick something through.
> What are some of your favorite books to jumpstart homeschooling? I liked that somebody stated to find books on parenting, rather than "how to school".*****************
What do you read for entertainment? That seems like its a non-sequitur, but it could be better to step away from "how to" and touch base with your own personal interests. I like to read trashy fantasy novels and it took me awhile to feel good about that - in a sense, I had to "deschool" that part of me that believed "smart girls read serious literature". But letting go of that idea helped me let go of wanting to push "literature" at my kids and instead value what They want to read or watch or play.
But all that being said, Sandra Dodd's Big Book of Unschooling is a good one to pick up and put down *and* a great source of ideas, information and inspiration.
http://sandradodd.com/bigbook/
Another easy unschooling read is Rue Kream's Parenting a Free Child- its in a Q&A format, which again makes it easy to pick up and put down:
http://www.freechild.info/
---Meredith
Heidi Stoeckli Cooling
>>What has been difficult for me is to accept that the things I find really interesting might not interest my son in the same way they do me. I love painting and drawing, and for a long time I would try to get him to join me, my way, in these activities. It never really worked. Recently, my son went into my art room and sat at the table drawing pages of game tiles and plans for a game he was making up. Again, there were many different kinds of rocks and minerals and textures related to our recent interests. The tiles were so detailed and interestingly laid out on the page. He saw me, and excitedly asked me if I wanted to draw with him - his way. In accepting this, I learned more about what he was seeing and thinking than I ever could have (or did) trying to get him to draw or paint something I planned for him. And, I discovered he does like to draw - his things, his way! I suspect the same is very true for your kids. They will really enjoy what *they* really enjoy, especially when they know you support them and might even join them!Karen.
What I meant to say was not that my children have the same interests in me, but that they see that I like to look for things that interest me--my wish would be that they saw that when I had an interest, I worked on it, and that if they found an interest, they'd put some time into it. I don't at all feel they should have the same interests as me, or even as each other.
I liked your comment about the Minecraft, and that this led to more interests that tied into that. I guess to some degree we have already been doing this somewhat, but usually they really need me to help them continue with that little path off their project (in this case, Minecraft and the little paths that led to mining). What I see is that I have been happy when they have found something to do, but I haven't helped them find the little paths that led off. So that suggestion is really good. We have always followed attachment parenting with our babies and toddlers, but I think because my parents were pretty uninvolved once we got school age, I have done the same thing, hoping to lead them to be more independent. Funny, because I see as an adult, sometimes my own independence (think of a 2 year old: "MY way!" LOL!) has not always been positive in the way that I don't allow too many people into my world (okay, I admit I ran into trust issues as a child, and that didn't help! LOL!). I really enjoyed the comments, and that helps me to understand how to be a better parent and encourager!
Thanks!
Heidi
Hey, you--worrying works! 90% of the things I worried about never happened! :)
" I get up every morning determined to both change the world and have one heck of a good time. Sometimes this makes planning my day difficult.� E. B. White
I've seen the village. It's full of idiots and I don't want it raising my children.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Heidi Stoeckli Cooling
Meredith--you touched on something that our family ran into about "literature". I used to be a branch librarian until the kids started getting older and we needed to focus more on the older kids' education (ha ha!). Anyway, at that time we were in a school group that was basically "run" by one very vocal woman, and her similarly very local children. Not only were they unhappy that the librarians of our county hadn't read EVERY book in the buildings (seriously?? Do all patrons believe that??), but they really felt they were far superior because they read all the "great" books of the ages. When my kids balked at deep reading--it hurt me on two levels at first: being a librarian, I was exposed to so much I THOUGHT they'd love at the time! LOL! The other reason: my pride in having to admit to this very vocal, very arrogant woman that my kids didn't love to read at every spare moment. This family actually did base their "friends" on how much they read. Now, I have come to the conclusion that it is okay that some of my kids learn by doing, seeing, hearing rather than by reading each book--"fine literature" or not. But that line in "Matilda" (the movie--gasp!), where Danny Devito says, "There is nothing in a book you can't learn faster from TV", does haunt me sometimes--ha ha!
I don't believe the adage, "get anything in a kid's hand to get them reading", but I do believe that it is okay if the newer titles feed their reading interests. I try to do the read-alouds with books my kids may have actually shied away from reading, due to the topic or even how the book looks.
Thanks for the wonderful comments.
Heidi
Hey, you--worrying works! 90% of the things I worried about never happened! :)
" I get up every morning determined to both change the world and have one heck of a good time. Sometimes this makes planning my day difficult.� E. B. White
I've seen the village. It's full of idiots and I don't want it raising my children.
To: [email protected]
From: plaidpanties666@...
Date: Sun, 29 May 2011 17:37:23 +0000
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Unschooling ideas
"Heidi" <hotcoolings@...> wrote:
It's okay to suggest things, too, but fun things. Have a movie marathon. Go window shopping. Go skating or bowling or to a pool (or pool hall... hard to find any in my area that aren't bars, but maybe you'll have better luck). Play miniature golf. Look around for touristy things to do in your area and do them for the fun of it. Go to a coffee-shop and people watch. Go to a pet shop and look at all the exotic fish and birds and snakes and creepy-crawlies. Get a new Lego kit.
Don't worry about "what Really is an interest" - interests can be big and deep and passionate but they can also be fleeting. Its not bad to dabble. If your kids have been stuck in school they may need time to dabble with the assurance they don't need to finish what they start or stick something through.
What do you read for entertainment? That seems like its a non-sequitur, but it could be better to step away from "how to" and touch base with your own personal interests. I like to read trashy fantasy novels and it took me awhile to feel good about that - in a sense, I had to "deschool" that part of me that believed "smart girls read serious literature". But letting go of that idea helped me let go of wanting to push "literature" at my kids and instead value what They want to read or watch or play.
But all that being said, Sandra Dodd's Big Book of Unschooling is a good one to pick up and put down *and* a great source of ideas, information and inspiration.
http://sandradodd.com/bigbook/
Another easy unschooling read is Rue Kream's Parenting a Free Child- its in a Q&A format, which again makes it easy to pick up and put down:
http://www.freechild.info/
---Meredith
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I don't believe the adage, "get anything in a kid's hand to get them reading", but I do believe that it is okay if the newer titles feed their reading interests. I try to do the read-alouds with books my kids may have actually shied away from reading, due to the topic or even how the book looks.
Thanks for the wonderful comments.
Heidi
Hey, you--worrying works! 90% of the things I worried about never happened! :)
" I get up every morning determined to both change the world and have one heck of a good time. Sometimes this makes planning my day difficult.� E. B. White
I've seen the village. It's full of idiots and I don't want it raising my children.
To: [email protected]
From: plaidpanties666@...
Date: Sun, 29 May 2011 17:37:23 +0000
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Unschooling ideas
"Heidi" <hotcoolings@...> wrote:
>> What is a good plan for a day for a family just starting to unschool? I have been trying to just de-brief, relax, look for signals from the kids of what their direction of interest might be, etc. I think they are struggling to figure out what REALLY is an interest to them.********************
It's okay to suggest things, too, but fun things. Have a movie marathon. Go window shopping. Go skating or bowling or to a pool (or pool hall... hard to find any in my area that aren't bars, but maybe you'll have better luck). Play miniature golf. Look around for touristy things to do in your area and do them for the fun of it. Go to a coffee-shop and people watch. Go to a pet shop and look at all the exotic fish and birds and snakes and creepy-crawlies. Get a new Lego kit.
Don't worry about "what Really is an interest" - interests can be big and deep and passionate but they can also be fleeting. Its not bad to dabble. If your kids have been stuck in school they may need time to dabble with the assurance they don't need to finish what they start or stick something through.
> What are some of your favorite books to jumpstart homeschooling? I liked that somebody stated to find books on parenting, rather than "how to school".*****************
What do you read for entertainment? That seems like its a non-sequitur, but it could be better to step away from "how to" and touch base with your own personal interests. I like to read trashy fantasy novels and it took me awhile to feel good about that - in a sense, I had to "deschool" that part of me that believed "smart girls read serious literature". But letting go of that idea helped me let go of wanting to push "literature" at my kids and instead value what They want to read or watch or play.
But all that being said, Sandra Dodd's Big Book of Unschooling is a good one to pick up and put down *and* a great source of ideas, information and inspiration.
http://sandradodd.com/bigbook/
Another easy unschooling read is Rue Kream's Parenting a Free Child- its in a Q&A format, which again makes it easy to pick up and put down:
http://www.freechild.info/
---Meredith
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On May 29, 2011, at 1:38 PM, Heidi Stoeckli Cooling wrote:
It seems a positive thing to want a trait that someone admires for her
kids. And yet, is the above any different than wishing a pink princess
girl were more rough and tumble? Or a meat loving kid would understand
the suffering of animals? Or an ultra energetic kid would sit down and
read just one book with you? Or an atheist would find Jesus or a God
believer would let go of that delusion?
Can you embrace the way they do approach life? It may be temporary --
an aspect of their age -- or part of who they are and how they'll
always do things. Either way, it will be relationship building to
accept all of who they are.
enjoy what they enjoy?
Rather than showing them paths that lead elsewhere, show them other
fun things. Things that connect to what they're interested in. Things
that you think they might enjoy. Things you think are cool -- just
because you want to share what you enjoy not because you think it
would be good for them to enjoy too.
If *they* take the paths, help them. If they don't take the paths,
that's cool too. Be the opener of doors rather than the one standing
beside the doors wishing they'd step through. Look at your kids rather
than where you wish they'd be. Be the provider of the rich environment
and then focus on them, helping them pull toward them what they enjoy
rather than focusing on the environment trying to figure out how to
engage them with it.
Joyce
> my wish would be that they saw that when I had an interest, I workedYet that's wishing they were someone different than who they are.
> on it, and that if they found an interest, they'd put some time into
> it.
It seems a positive thing to want a trait that someone admires for her
kids. And yet, is the above any different than wishing a pink princess
girl were more rough and tumble? Or a meat loving kid would understand
the suffering of animals? Or an ultra energetic kid would sit down and
read just one book with you? Or an atheist would find Jesus or a God
believer would let go of that delusion?
Can you embrace the way they do approach life? It may be temporary --
an aspect of their age -- or part of who they are and how they'll
always do things. Either way, it will be relationship building to
accept all of who they are.
> but I haven't helped them find the little paths that led off.This is subtle, but what if they don't want the paths? What if they
enjoy what they enjoy?
Rather than showing them paths that lead elsewhere, show them other
fun things. Things that connect to what they're interested in. Things
that you think they might enjoy. Things you think are cool -- just
because you want to share what you enjoy not because you think it
would be good for them to enjoy too.
If *they* take the paths, help them. If they don't take the paths,
that's cool too. Be the opener of doors rather than the one standing
beside the doors wishing they'd step through. Look at your kids rather
than where you wish they'd be. Be the provider of the rich environment
and then focus on them, helping them pull toward them what they enjoy
rather than focusing on the environment trying to figure out how to
engage them with it.
Joyce
plaidpanties666
Heidi Stoeckli Cooling <hotcoolings@...> wrote:
You don't need to be looking for "little paths that lead off" so much as looking for what interests your kids right now. If its Minecraft that's fine. It doesn't have to "lead" to something that looks educational for your kids to be learning a whole lot from what they're doing. They might find Minecraft inspires them to do something else or not. You might find a related game or movie or graphic novel they enjoy. Or Minecraft might be enough in and of itself.
That's where unschooling is different from an educational method, per se. An interest or passion doesn't have to have "tie ins" to other "subjects" in order to be valuable.
interests
****************
I'm going to shock you - reading is a useful skill, but that's all. It doesn't matter if kids or adults enjoy it, if they ever want to read for fun. Not important. Kids will learn to read for the utility of it the same way Americans learn to drive for the utility of it. I drive almost every day, but I can't say I enjoy it. It's a useful skill.
So in that sense, it really doesn't matter what they read so long as they are reading for their own reasons. Forget "newer titles" - I'm talking about letting go of the idea that the purpose of reading is to read books. Plenty of adults live happy, meaningful, culturally rich lives without touching books - but they may read magazines, instructions, and web pages. They may go to plays, concerts and poetry slams. They may be artists, themselves - all without ever diving into a book for pleasure.
Which isn't to say books are somehow evil - no more than is tv ;) And there's nothing *wrong* with reading for pleasure. Hanging on to the idea that people *should* read books in general and certain books in particular is limiting, though. The world of knowledge and artistry is much, much bigger than that.
---Meredith
>What I see is that I have been happy when they have found something to do, but I haven't helped them find the little paths that led off.******************
You don't need to be looking for "little paths that lead off" so much as looking for what interests your kids right now. If its Minecraft that's fine. It doesn't have to "lead" to something that looks educational for your kids to be learning a whole lot from what they're doing. They might find Minecraft inspires them to do something else or not. You might find a related game or movie or graphic novel they enjoy. Or Minecraft might be enough in and of itself.
That's where unschooling is different from an educational method, per se. An interest or passion doesn't have to have "tie ins" to other "subjects" in order to be valuable.
>>I don't believe the adage, "get anything in a kid's hand to get them reading",but I do believe that it is okay if the newer titles feed their reading
interests
****************
I'm going to shock you - reading is a useful skill, but that's all. It doesn't matter if kids or adults enjoy it, if they ever want to read for fun. Not important. Kids will learn to read for the utility of it the same way Americans learn to drive for the utility of it. I drive almost every day, but I can't say I enjoy it. It's a useful skill.
So in that sense, it really doesn't matter what they read so long as they are reading for their own reasons. Forget "newer titles" - I'm talking about letting go of the idea that the purpose of reading is to read books. Plenty of adults live happy, meaningful, culturally rich lives without touching books - but they may read magazines, instructions, and web pages. They may go to plays, concerts and poetry slams. They may be artists, themselves - all without ever diving into a book for pleasure.
Which isn't to say books are somehow evil - no more than is tv ;) And there's nothing *wrong* with reading for pleasure. Hanging on to the idea that people *should* read books in general and certain books in particular is limiting, though. The world of knowledge and artistry is much, much bigger than that.
---Meredith
Joyce Fetteroll
This is a bit from an offlist reply to a returned post that I wanted
to pull out for the list.
==========
(and spouses). It's a thought that influences their actions. But they
haven't pulled that thought apart and looked at what it feels like
from the point of view of person the wish is directed at.
Someone's interests *are* who they are. As are their choices. As is
their approach to life. As are their reactions to the world.
What if your husband wished you had different interests than you do?
You disagreed with my statement with a statement that confirms what I
said.
You want to accept your kids but, unconsciously to you but clearly
from the outside -- which is where your kids are! -- you're not
accepting them. Those unconscious wishes will affect how you relate to
their interests -- which are part of who they are.
The type of wish you originally wrote -- "my wish would be that they
saw that when I had an interest, I worked on it, and that if they
found an interest, they'd put some time into it." -- is common. It
sounds loving. Every caring parent wants better for their kids. But
from the point of view of the child it can feel like a dissatisfaction
with and unacceptance of who they are.
==========
New stuff:
First problem: Whenever I throw the idea of "accepting who kids are"
onto the list, I know I'm also unintentionally creating the idea of
accepting that your kids are people who hit, or are thoughtless of
others, or who will melt down in social situations. And I'm not sure
how to get across the one idea without the other!
I think "accept" is the problem word. "Accept" suggests giving up
doing anything about the situation.
Second problem: If I say that acceptance doesn't mean not doing
anything, that creates the idea that everything a child isn't doing
the best way is a problem to be tackled.
I want a succinct way of saying "accept your child" without the side
problems that causes. -) I want "Accept that you can't change who your
child is today. If they're unhappy, find ways to make their lives more
joyful. If they're happy, focus on their happiness. :-)" to be enough,
but it isn't.
ONE:
*If they are happy*, examine why you want them to change. Who are they
hurting right now, this moment? If the answer is no one, then accept
who they are right now. They are works in progress. Their focus may be
elsewhere and what you see as a fault may be something that doesn't
bother them *right now*. Or it's something they're willing to put up
with while they're working on something that's important to them.
Or it's their right-now approach to life. Accept the rightness of
their approach for their right-now selves. Every solution, every
approach has its positives and negatives. The negative you see may --
for now -- be outweighed by a positive you don't see. What they're
trying to get from a situation may be totally different than what you
think they "should" be getting.
If you fear that if they continue doing as they are -- even if it's
not hurting them obviously now -- will hurt them in the future, that's
something to bring to the list to get some distanced views on it! :-)
(Examples are TV and eating. Those kinds of fears are too big to
summarize and 1000s of words are collected on Sandra's and my sites.
http://sandradodd.com/unschooling
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com
Some examples (that aren't Big Fear based):
1) When Kathryn was young, she formed some of her letters in what
looked like painful ways. ;-) Watching her made me clench my teeth.
And I offered lots of opportunities to see the "right" -- less painful
-- ways like drawing on a Magna doodle and Italic handwriting
examples. She went to 2nd grade for 2 months and her handwriting
improved but when she quit, her handwriting went back to the way she
was familiar with. Fortunately it didn't make me think she was now
stuck with bad habits and I was bad for not correcting her earlier ;-)
It made me realize that what was important to her was getting the
words in her head down on paper. What she needed was for the process
(of writing) not to get in the way. And what didn't get in the way was
*her* way of writing. It was familiar and didn't intrude on her
consciousness. And I knew when *she* needed to form letters more
efficiently, she'd seek out how to do that.
2) On a walk one day -- years before I found unschooling -- a mom was
following her child on his tricycle. He was sitting and scooting
along, pushing with his feet rather than using the pedals. She made
the comment as I strolled by that she wished he would use the pedals.
She was watching him do what to her looked unnecessarily hard and
wanted him to have a better way. But for *him* that was a better way.
Or funner :-) (Which can be the same thing!) It could be his legs were
too short to use the pedals well. It could be scooting was what felt
right. I don't think I said anything wise but it was one of those
defining moments that sowed the seeds of understanding how two people
can have different views and yet both be right -- right for themselves
but wrong for the other person.
3) Kathryn was on the high school cross country team. She loves
running and has a lot of natural talent, meaning she did well without
pushing herself. From Carl's point of view, anyone with what she had
obviously wanted to shoot for beating her own and others' times. He
wanted the best for her :-) So he helped her train. If someone has a
goal it can help to have someone pushing you *in ways you want to go*.
She didn't know what she loved about running so his goal for her felt
like a good idea. His enthusiasm was infectious. But as she went
along, she realized that *for her* the goal was a run that felt good.
If she was running for the sake of times, then a good run might
actually be a failure. For her father, not hitting the mark meant
figuring out how to do better next time. For Kathryn, the mark was an
enjoyable run. Even though Carl wanted the "best" for her, what she
really needed was help with *her* definition of best, not *his*
definition of best.
Accept that your "right" way may be wrong for them. Then it will be
easier to make suggestions of a way that might be helpful or easier
but also help you detach from your way being THE right way, help you
not be invested in they adopting your "right" way. One day it may be
right for them. Or it may not be because they want something different
that your way won't help them get but their way will.
TWO:
*If they are unhappy*, focus on what the child's trying to do rather
than on the child. Look at yourself and how your reactions might be
making it worse. Look at the environment and whether that can be
changed for avoided. What can you change? What obstacles can you
remove? What can you bring to them? How can you avoid adding further
negative emotion? If it's an ongoing problem, ask on the list for some
objectivity :-) If it's in the moment and you can't figure out how to
do better, being there for a hug of understanding and acceptance that
this is difficult is a really great response and may be all they need.
Some examples:
Sometimes kids get wound up by intense hours of video games. The
conventional approach is cut short the video games. But that doesn't
help kids be happier in what their doing. (How to help them depends on
the child. It might be bringing them food. Being aware of stopping
points and offering physical movement. Part is offering ideas. Part is
trusting they want to be happy.
Some kids are highly sensitive. It seems loving to wish they were less
sensitive. It seems loving to want to work on decreasing their
sensitivity. But that sensitivity is part of who they are right now.
What they need are ways to live as sensitive people in the world.
Think about how frustrating it would be if your arm were broken and
your husband's "solution" was to wish your arm weren't broken! Well,
yeah, gee, big help there! ;-) But what if, instead, he did for you
what you couldn't right now? What if he found clever ways to make what
you wanted to do easy to do with a broken arm?
THREE:
*If they are making others unhappy*, stop the child! Kids need a big
clear message of "No, not good." They don't necessarily need to
understand why! They won't necessarily not do it again. But they need
to feel "That's not an acceptable solution. Let's try something else."
And then move on to the *real* problem. Rather than focus on them
understanding why those solutions are bad, focus on what your child is
trying to do and help them. Assume that your child is doing the best
they can and come up with *better* solutions than the ones your child
is trying. *Be* the better solution. (Eg, say "Thank you" for them
instead of making them.) Also accept that your child may not be ready
for the situation. If they keep making choices that upset others,
they're not ready. And they need to be kept out of the situation until
they're older and you can try again.
I know there are better examples and more that can be said about 2 and
3 but I've run out of time! Hopefully others can flesh them out. :-)
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
to pull out for the list.
==========
> Me: Yet that's wishing they were someone different than who they are.The wish you wrote is something people say casually about their kids
>
> You: Not really--I am wishing that they find other interests. We
> want our kids to be
> who they want to be, and we are fine if the autistic guy or the FASD
> guy never
> change.
(and spouses). It's a thought that influences their actions. But they
haven't pulled that thought apart and looked at what it feels like
from the point of view of person the wish is directed at.
Someone's interests *are* who they are. As are their choices. As is
their approach to life. As are their reactions to the world.
What if your husband wished you had different interests than you do?
You disagreed with my statement with a statement that confirms what I
said.
You want to accept your kids but, unconsciously to you but clearly
from the outside -- which is where your kids are! -- you're not
accepting them. Those unconscious wishes will affect how you relate to
their interests -- which are part of who they are.
The type of wish you originally wrote -- "my wish would be that they
saw that when I had an interest, I worked on it, and that if they
found an interest, they'd put some time into it." -- is common. It
sounds loving. Every caring parent wants better for their kids. But
from the point of view of the child it can feel like a dissatisfaction
with and unacceptance of who they are.
==========
New stuff:
First problem: Whenever I throw the idea of "accepting who kids are"
onto the list, I know I'm also unintentionally creating the idea of
accepting that your kids are people who hit, or are thoughtless of
others, or who will melt down in social situations. And I'm not sure
how to get across the one idea without the other!
I think "accept" is the problem word. "Accept" suggests giving up
doing anything about the situation.
Second problem: If I say that acceptance doesn't mean not doing
anything, that creates the idea that everything a child isn't doing
the best way is a problem to be tackled.
I want a succinct way of saying "accept your child" without the side
problems that causes. -) I want "Accept that you can't change who your
child is today. If they're unhappy, find ways to make their lives more
joyful. If they're happy, focus on their happiness. :-)" to be enough,
but it isn't.
ONE:
*If they are happy*, examine why you want them to change. Who are they
hurting right now, this moment? If the answer is no one, then accept
who they are right now. They are works in progress. Their focus may be
elsewhere and what you see as a fault may be something that doesn't
bother them *right now*. Or it's something they're willing to put up
with while they're working on something that's important to them.
Or it's their right-now approach to life. Accept the rightness of
their approach for their right-now selves. Every solution, every
approach has its positives and negatives. The negative you see may --
for now -- be outweighed by a positive you don't see. What they're
trying to get from a situation may be totally different than what you
think they "should" be getting.
If you fear that if they continue doing as they are -- even if it's
not hurting them obviously now -- will hurt them in the future, that's
something to bring to the list to get some distanced views on it! :-)
(Examples are TV and eating. Those kinds of fears are too big to
summarize and 1000s of words are collected on Sandra's and my sites.
http://sandradodd.com/unschooling
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com
Some examples (that aren't Big Fear based):
1) When Kathryn was young, she formed some of her letters in what
looked like painful ways. ;-) Watching her made me clench my teeth.
And I offered lots of opportunities to see the "right" -- less painful
-- ways like drawing on a Magna doodle and Italic handwriting
examples. She went to 2nd grade for 2 months and her handwriting
improved but when she quit, her handwriting went back to the way she
was familiar with. Fortunately it didn't make me think she was now
stuck with bad habits and I was bad for not correcting her earlier ;-)
It made me realize that what was important to her was getting the
words in her head down on paper. What she needed was for the process
(of writing) not to get in the way. And what didn't get in the way was
*her* way of writing. It was familiar and didn't intrude on her
consciousness. And I knew when *she* needed to form letters more
efficiently, she'd seek out how to do that.
2) On a walk one day -- years before I found unschooling -- a mom was
following her child on his tricycle. He was sitting and scooting
along, pushing with his feet rather than using the pedals. She made
the comment as I strolled by that she wished he would use the pedals.
She was watching him do what to her looked unnecessarily hard and
wanted him to have a better way. But for *him* that was a better way.
Or funner :-) (Which can be the same thing!) It could be his legs were
too short to use the pedals well. It could be scooting was what felt
right. I don't think I said anything wise but it was one of those
defining moments that sowed the seeds of understanding how two people
can have different views and yet both be right -- right for themselves
but wrong for the other person.
3) Kathryn was on the high school cross country team. She loves
running and has a lot of natural talent, meaning she did well without
pushing herself. From Carl's point of view, anyone with what she had
obviously wanted to shoot for beating her own and others' times. He
wanted the best for her :-) So he helped her train. If someone has a
goal it can help to have someone pushing you *in ways you want to go*.
She didn't know what she loved about running so his goal for her felt
like a good idea. His enthusiasm was infectious. But as she went
along, she realized that *for her* the goal was a run that felt good.
If she was running for the sake of times, then a good run might
actually be a failure. For her father, not hitting the mark meant
figuring out how to do better next time. For Kathryn, the mark was an
enjoyable run. Even though Carl wanted the "best" for her, what she
really needed was help with *her* definition of best, not *his*
definition of best.
Accept that your "right" way may be wrong for them. Then it will be
easier to make suggestions of a way that might be helpful or easier
but also help you detach from your way being THE right way, help you
not be invested in they adopting your "right" way. One day it may be
right for them. Or it may not be because they want something different
that your way won't help them get but their way will.
TWO:
*If they are unhappy*, focus on what the child's trying to do rather
than on the child. Look at yourself and how your reactions might be
making it worse. Look at the environment and whether that can be
changed for avoided. What can you change? What obstacles can you
remove? What can you bring to them? How can you avoid adding further
negative emotion? If it's an ongoing problem, ask on the list for some
objectivity :-) If it's in the moment and you can't figure out how to
do better, being there for a hug of understanding and acceptance that
this is difficult is a really great response and may be all they need.
Some examples:
Sometimes kids get wound up by intense hours of video games. The
conventional approach is cut short the video games. But that doesn't
help kids be happier in what their doing. (How to help them depends on
the child. It might be bringing them food. Being aware of stopping
points and offering physical movement. Part is offering ideas. Part is
trusting they want to be happy.
Some kids are highly sensitive. It seems loving to wish they were less
sensitive. It seems loving to want to work on decreasing their
sensitivity. But that sensitivity is part of who they are right now.
What they need are ways to live as sensitive people in the world.
Think about how frustrating it would be if your arm were broken and
your husband's "solution" was to wish your arm weren't broken! Well,
yeah, gee, big help there! ;-) But what if, instead, he did for you
what you couldn't right now? What if he found clever ways to make what
you wanted to do easy to do with a broken arm?
THREE:
*If they are making others unhappy*, stop the child! Kids need a big
clear message of "No, not good." They don't necessarily need to
understand why! They won't necessarily not do it again. But they need
to feel "That's not an acceptable solution. Let's try something else."
And then move on to the *real* problem. Rather than focus on them
understanding why those solutions are bad, focus on what your child is
trying to do and help them. Assume that your child is doing the best
they can and come up with *better* solutions than the ones your child
is trying. *Be* the better solution. (Eg, say "Thank you" for them
instead of making them.) Also accept that your child may not be ready
for the situation. If they keep making choices that upset others,
they're not ready. And they need to be kept out of the situation until
they're older and you can try again.
I know there are better examples and more that can be said about 2 and
3 but I've run out of time! Hopefully others can flesh them out. :-)
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lisa E Biesemeyer
"irst problem: Whenever I throw the idea of "accepting who kids are"
onto the list, I know I'm also unintentionally creating the idea of
accepting that your kids are people who hit, or are thoughtless of
others, or who will melt down in social situations. And I'm not sure
how to get across the one idea without the other!
I think "accept" is the problem word. "Accept" suggests giving up
doing anything about the situation.
Second problem: If I say that acceptance doesn't mean not doing
anything, that creates the idea that everything a child isn't doing
the best way is a problem to be tackled.
I want a succinct way of saying "accept your child" without the side
problems that causes. -) I want "Accept that you can't change who your
child is today. If they're unhappy, find ways to make their lives more
joyful. If they're happy, focus on their happiness. :-)" to be enough,
but it isn't."
Something that has helped me a great deal here is differentiating between
acceptance and tolerance. Scott Noelle has a Daily Groove about this (below):
http://www.enjoyparenting.com/daily-groove/acceptance-vs-tolerance
Noelle wrote: "Acceptance is one of your greatest sources of Power. Without it,
you couldn't receive or own anything, handle unexpected change, or listen
effectively.
In general, acceptance means being at peace with What Is. When you refuse to
accept something, you sacrifice your peace.
Non-acceptance creates resistance and shifts your focus away from what you want,
toward what you don't want.
Can you see, then, how you disempower and undermine yourself when you deem your
child's behavior "unacceptable"?
But acceptance is not the same as tolerance. It's entirely possible to accept
something while choosing not to tolerate it. For example, if your child were
trying to hit you, you could accept (make peace with) that — even while using
protective force to prevent the hitting.
The difference is how you feel in the process:
* Tolerance without acceptance leads to resentment.
* Tolerance with acceptance leads to appreciation.
* INtolerance without acceptance leads to conflict.
* INtolerance with acceptance leads to creativity.
In other words, when you accept What Is — AND you're clear that you want a
change — it's easy to solve problems creatively."
So, for example, I have decided to accept (rather than not accept) that my 5yo
daughter has a volatile temper and work with her on better ways to respond to
upsetting situations. However, I don't/will not tolerate her hitting, pushing,
biting her brothers or me when she is angry, frustrated, or feeling anxious. My
intolerance leads to finding different ways for both of us to respond, yet I am
not judging her temper.
Maybe using these two words would help parents struggling with accepting their
children for who they are better deal with such feelings of wanting to change
what is. For the parent that wants their child to have other interests, they
could accept their child's interests without tolerating certain manifestations
of those interests, for example.
Lisa B
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
onto the list, I know I'm also unintentionally creating the idea of
accepting that your kids are people who hit, or are thoughtless of
others, or who will melt down in social situations. And I'm not sure
how to get across the one idea without the other!
I think "accept" is the problem word. "Accept" suggests giving up
doing anything about the situation.
Second problem: If I say that acceptance doesn't mean not doing
anything, that creates the idea that everything a child isn't doing
the best way is a problem to be tackled.
I want a succinct way of saying "accept your child" without the side
problems that causes. -) I want "Accept that you can't change who your
child is today. If they're unhappy, find ways to make their lives more
joyful. If they're happy, focus on their happiness. :-)" to be enough,
but it isn't."
Something that has helped me a great deal here is differentiating between
acceptance and tolerance. Scott Noelle has a Daily Groove about this (below):
http://www.enjoyparenting.com/daily-groove/acceptance-vs-tolerance
Noelle wrote: "Acceptance is one of your greatest sources of Power. Without it,
you couldn't receive or own anything, handle unexpected change, or listen
effectively.
In general, acceptance means being at peace with What Is. When you refuse to
accept something, you sacrifice your peace.
Non-acceptance creates resistance and shifts your focus away from what you want,
toward what you don't want.
Can you see, then, how you disempower and undermine yourself when you deem your
child's behavior "unacceptable"?
But acceptance is not the same as tolerance. It's entirely possible to accept
something while choosing not to tolerate it. For example, if your child were
trying to hit you, you could accept (make peace with) that — even while using
protective force to prevent the hitting.
The difference is how you feel in the process:
* Tolerance without acceptance leads to resentment.
* Tolerance with acceptance leads to appreciation.
* INtolerance without acceptance leads to conflict.
* INtolerance with acceptance leads to creativity.
In other words, when you accept What Is — AND you're clear that you want a
change — it's easy to solve problems creatively."
So, for example, I have decided to accept (rather than not accept) that my 5yo
daughter has a volatile temper and work with her on better ways to respond to
upsetting situations. However, I don't/will not tolerate her hitting, pushing,
biting her brothers or me when she is angry, frustrated, or feeling anxious. My
intolerance leads to finding different ways for both of us to respond, yet I am
not judging her temper.
Maybe using these two words would help parents struggling with accepting their
children for who they are better deal with such feelings of wanting to change
what is. For the parent that wants their child to have other interests, they
could accept their child's interests without tolerating certain manifestations
of those interests, for example.
Lisa B
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
On 5/30/2011 10:40 AM, plaidpanties666 wrote:
not going to happen if the parent is just "happy when they have found
something to do." That sounds too passive for an unschooling parent.
Find the little paths that lead off to more interesting and fun things.
And find new and different interesting and fun things. Offer them
generously but not insistently.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >What I see is that I have been happy when they have found somethingI do think parents should be expanding their child's world and that's
> to do, but I haven't helped them find the little paths that led off.
> ******************
>
> You don't need to be looking for "little paths that lead off" so much
> as looking for what interests your kids right now.
not going to happen if the parent is just "happy when they have found
something to do." That sounds too passive for an unschooling parent.
Find the little paths that lead off to more interesting and fun things.
And find new and different interesting and fun things. Offer them
generously but not insistently.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
otherstar
From: Pam Sorooshian
Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2011 11:56 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Unschooling ideas
Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2011 11:56 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Unschooling ideas
On 5/30/2011 10:40 AM, plaidpanties666 wrote:
> >What I see is that I have been happy when they have found something
> to do, but I haven't helped them find the little paths that led off.
> ******************
>
> You don't need to be looking for "little paths that lead off" so much
> as looking for what interests your kids right now.
I do think parents should be expanding their child's world and that's
not going to happen if the parent is just "happy when they have found
something to do." That sounds too passive for an unschooling parent.
***************************************************************
I read Meredith’s post to mean that finding the little path’s that lead off is not helpful if you are not looking for what actually interests your child. If somebody is sitting around waiting for their kids to find things to do and are happy when the kids succeed, that isn’t finding little paths and it also isn’t looking at current interests. It is letting the kids fumble around without any input or help.
I think more information is necessary to determine whether the original poster is being passive or not. I do lots of strewing and have lots of cool stuff around my house. I give them lots of opportunities to do stuff but I am not necessarily looking for little paths. My 6 year old is really interested in Pokemon so I get everything that I can find related to Pokemon. I try to keep track of the time so that I can tell her when it will be on TV because she gets busy and forgets. If a new game comes out, we get it for her. I am very happy when my child discovers the cool stuff and plays with it or uses it. I feel like a lot of my time and energy is put into making sure that there are lots of things around the house that the kids will like and enjoy. In order to do that, I need to know what their interests are. There are some things that I would not get because I know that my kids do not like those things and would be offended if I brought them into the house because it would mean that I had completely ignored who they are and what their interests are.
Connie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
plaidpanties666
Pam Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
Interesting and fun, yes! But at first, it could be better to avoid anything "little paths" that have an educational look or feel to them. Don't go from Minecraft to books about geology or documentaries about the mining industry, go from Minecraft to Roblox or Lego Star Wars or playing hide and seek.
---Meredith
>> I do think parents should be expanding their child's world and that'sIt can be a good thing for a parent new to unschooling, though. If a parent has been in the habit of turning anything and everything into a "learning experience" then its a good idea to Be a bit more passive in that regard, to get out of the way and let the kids really settle in to what they enjoy.
> not going to happen if the parent is just "happy when they have found
> something to do." That sounds too passive for an unschooling parent.
>>> Find the little paths that lead off to more interesting and fun things.**********
Interesting and fun, yes! But at first, it could be better to avoid anything "little paths" that have an educational look or feel to them. Don't go from Minecraft to books about geology or documentaries about the mining industry, go from Minecraft to Roblox or Lego Star Wars or playing hide and seek.
---Meredith
Jenny Cyphers
> Me: Yet that's wishing they were someone different than who they are.***The wish you wrote is something people say casually about their kids
>
> You: Not really--I am wishing that they find other interests. We
> want our kids to be
> who they want to be, and we are fine if the autistic guy or the FASD
> guy never
> change.
(and spouses). It's a thought that influences their actions. But they
haven't pulled that thought apart and looked at what it feels like
from the point of view of person the wish is directed at.
Someone's interests *are* who they are. As are their choices. As is
their approach to life. As are their reactions to the world.***
I'm just pulling out this section right here and I'm going to share a story.
This weekend, as a lot of you know, was the Life is Good Unschooling Conference
in Vancouver WA. I ended up hosting the teen chat this year because the person
running it stayed home with a sick kid. We opted for a chat rather than a
panel, so it was more informal and there were more ways to bounce back and forth
with questions and answers. For those that don't know about what this is, it's
where parents can ask unschooled teens questions about their unschooling lives,
what they plan for the future, etc, so that parents with younger kids relax a
little bit about how kids "turn out".
We ended up on the topic of supporting passions, which started out being about
what these teens plans are for the near future. One teen said that parents
should support their children's passions even if they are uncomfortable with
that passion, even if the kid wants to be a tattoo artist or a burlesque dancer
and went on to expand on how a parent who might be uncomfortable with those
passions could find value in them and be supportive. One parent in the audience
firmly stated that she didn't agree with that at all, that as a parent, she had
the right and responsibility to not support a passion she didn't agree with and
that she, as that parent, should make sure that her child knew why she wasn't
supportive of it.
There was almost an audible gasp from the row of teens, the tension immediately
sky rocketed. You could FEEL IT. The rest of the discussion went in the
direction of trusting and supporting passions. These kids had no attachment to
that parent, yet each and everyone one of those teens could feel what that
feeling was so intensely that every person in that entire room could feel it.
Imagine if that were you and your child.
In that moment where you choose to devalue your child's interest, FEEL what that
might feel like to that child. Even if you, as the parent, believe that you are
very very right about what you believe, your child is a different person who
just might have other ideas of what is right. Even if they decide that they
weren't right, it is so much better to find that out for oneself than to have
someone else say or even think "I told you so". As a parent knowing that you
"told them so" feels awful, it just does. Sometimes feeling or being right
about something sucks.
If there is a possibility that it just might suck in the end, wouldn't it be
better that the one part about it that doesn't suck is your relationship with
your kid? The teens were awesome at talking about this topic! They very
bluntly said that, sure any parent can tell their kid that they won't support
something, but what gets lost is the trust in the relationship. We get to make
choices. Parents can make choices about whether or not they will support
something or not, but in the end, the part that really makes the difference is
the relationship. There were 2 teens there, whose father was in the audience,
so they put him on the spot a little bit (it was their mom that was supposed to
have hosted the chat) and brought up one time that one of them hadn't felt
supported in something and why and how and all 3 of them explained how that
worked, how they handled that and how they do better with it now. He was very
gracious about it.
Gracious is a good word there! We WANT to be gracious with our kids! Finding
ways to support our kids in what they want to do, even if it makes us terribly
uncomfortable, is so earth shatteringly mind changing that you can't help but
grow as a person to do it. We get to learn how to be better people because of
our kids and that is awesome and our kids can reap the benefits of that in huge
life transforming ways.
I haven't read what led up to this conversation, so I hope that I haven't taken
this totally off topic here! I will go back and read now!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
***I have been trying to just de-brief, relax, look for signals from the kids of
what their direction of interest might be, etc. I think they are struggling to
figure out what REALLY is an interest to them.***
Kids have all kinds of interests all the time, it's usually the adults that
can't see them through their narrow tunnel vision. For most kids, the world is
expansive and interesting and as long as the adults around them continually make
the world expansive and interesting, there is no way that you won't see what
they find interesting.
In other words, right now, you aren't finding the world interesting so you
aren't seeing what your kids are interested in. What do they DO? Watch TV?
Play games? What? There's your answer. That's what they find interesting,
that's what interests them, really. See what they like about it, find out
interesting those things are and make it more interesting. Do that more. If
they like music, look it up on Youtube and then do video chasing, follow the
next most interesting thing on that list on the right. THAT is how you find
interesting rabbit trails and expand and learn more and more.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
what their direction of interest might be, etc. I think they are struggling to
figure out what REALLY is an interest to them.***
Kids have all kinds of interests all the time, it's usually the adults that
can't see them through their narrow tunnel vision. For most kids, the world is
expansive and interesting and as long as the adults around them continually make
the world expansive and interesting, there is no way that you won't see what
they find interesting.
In other words, right now, you aren't finding the world interesting so you
aren't seeing what your kids are interested in. What do they DO? Watch TV?
Play games? What? There's your answer. That's what they find interesting,
that's what interests them, really. See what they like about it, find out
interesting those things are and make it more interesting. Do that more. If
they like music, look it up on Youtube and then do video chasing, follow the
next most interesting thing on that list on the right. THAT is how you find
interesting rabbit trails and expand and learn more and more.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
***He loves the mining. He gets so excited when he finds gold, diamond and
obsidian. The next time we stopped briefly at the library, I asked if he wanted
to look at books with gold, diamond and obsidian in them. He literally jumped up
and down with excitement at that idea, and we ended up taking out a huge stack
of books on all kinds of mining and earth related topics. He picked them all
out, although we searched for them together. At home I left them on tables,
where he and I look at them when we were eating, or transitioning, or whatever.
Later, we watched a video about volcanos, and looked through a collection of
rocks in a box that I have been adding to over the years which included lava
rock, basalt, obsidian and pumice. Again, he was thrilled, but none of this
wouldn't have worked if I had chosen some topic without knowing where his
interests were.***
Books and videos are great! There is also the real world! Go to cool rock and
mineral shows! Find obsidian fields and explore them. Go mining! There are
lots of places to do that! Go to mining museums. Go to jewelry stores, go to
jewelry supply stores. Explore geology in all kinds of ways that connect with
that!
That's how it works... one little seemingly insignificant interest, that leads
to one thing, find a book or video, go and do and be around, explore. One
little thing can lead to lots of little things or other big huge things, but you
won't know unless you try it. You won't know unless you find something
interesting in the seemingly insignificant!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
obsidian. The next time we stopped briefly at the library, I asked if he wanted
to look at books with gold, diamond and obsidian in them. He literally jumped up
and down with excitement at that idea, and we ended up taking out a huge stack
of books on all kinds of mining and earth related topics. He picked them all
out, although we searched for them together. At home I left them on tables,
where he and I look at them when we were eating, or transitioning, or whatever.
Later, we watched a video about volcanos, and looked through a collection of
rocks in a box that I have been adding to over the years which included lava
rock, basalt, obsidian and pumice. Again, he was thrilled, but none of this
wouldn't have worked if I had chosen some topic without knowing where his
interests were.***
Books and videos are great! There is also the real world! Go to cool rock and
mineral shows! Find obsidian fields and explore them. Go mining! There are
lots of places to do that! Go to mining museums. Go to jewelry stores, go to
jewelry supply stores. Explore geology in all kinds of ways that connect with
that!
That's how it works... one little seemingly insignificant interest, that leads
to one thing, find a book or video, go and do and be around, explore. One
little thing can lead to lots of little things or other big huge things, but you
won't know unless you try it. You won't know unless you find something
interesting in the seemingly insignificant!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
***my wish would be that they saw that when I had an interest, I worked on it,
and that if they found an interest, they'd put some time into it.***
That's assuming that each and every interest has a value attachment to it. Not
all interests are going to be as valuable as the next, or other interest. Time
isn't an investment. It's hard to see it that way in a culture steeped in time
and value. One small passing interest, one moment of finger knitting in one
work shop when a child is 8, need not lead to knitting and felting delicious
bags and shawls to be sold at the local art market. That one moment can lead to
nothing for 7 yrs and rediscovered in a conversation that connects with a person
who knows how to also fix cars and you were just exactly at that moment also
interested in fixing cars.
Each person spends exactly the amount of time they want to spend on each thing
in each given moment. Sometimes I spend exactly 20 minutes doing dishes because
I want time to do something else within an hour that I have free to do as I
please. I have a child who can spend many hours building with legos on one day
and not touch them in a month, then pick up that same lego creation and continue
on as if no time had lapsed in between. Should I not keep legos around because
she doesn't play with them much? After all, once a month isn't much and legos
are just toys. Guess how she learned to multiply?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
and that if they found an interest, they'd put some time into it.***
That's assuming that each and every interest has a value attachment to it. Not
all interests are going to be as valuable as the next, or other interest. Time
isn't an investment. It's hard to see it that way in a culture steeped in time
and value. One small passing interest, one moment of finger knitting in one
work shop when a child is 8, need not lead to knitting and felting delicious
bags and shawls to be sold at the local art market. That one moment can lead to
nothing for 7 yrs and rediscovered in a conversation that connects with a person
who knows how to also fix cars and you were just exactly at that moment also
interested in fixing cars.
Each person spends exactly the amount of time they want to spend on each thing
in each given moment. Sometimes I spend exactly 20 minutes doing dishes because
I want time to do something else within an hour that I have free to do as I
please. I have a child who can spend many hours building with legos on one day
and not touch them in a month, then pick up that same lego creation and continue
on as if no time had lapsed in between. Should I not keep legos around because
she doesn't play with them much? After all, once a month isn't much and legos
are just toys. Guess how she learned to multiply?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-So, for example, I have decided to accept (rather than not accept) that my 5yo
daughter has a volatile temper and work with her on better ways to respond to
upsetting situations. However, I don't/will not tolerate her hitting, pushing,
biting her brothers or me when she is angry, frustrated, or feeling anxious. My
intolerance leads to finding different ways for both of us to respond, yet I am
not judging her temper.-=-
If you think of it as helping her live peacefully in the world, you don't need "intolerance."
Being a child's partner covers the problem in the idea of "acceptance," I think.
If I'm realistic about my partner's abilities and personality traits, I can cover and compensate for those in particular situations, or know when to retreat to some privacy, or to regroup and refuel.
-=-Maybe using these two words...-=-
"accept" and "tolerate"?
-=-Maybe using these two words would help parents struggling with accepting their
children for who they are better deal with such feelings of wanting to change
what is. For the parent that wants their child to have other interests, they
could accept their child's interests without tolerating certain manifestations
of those interests, for example.-=-
I don't think any child has an interest in having a volatile temper, so I don't understand that paragraph in light of the one before it.
What sort of interest would have aspects that needed to be tolerated or not tolerated? Playing ball in the house? Unauthorized body piercings?
"Manifestations" isn't a good word to use when "action" or "choice" would be clearer and more helpful.
I agree absolutely that some people "accept" bad behavior and call it "accepting their child as he is." But I don't thin "intolerance" is a good counter-balance to that. Being a good partner is more peaceful and more loving than whether to tolerate or to be intolerant, I think. "Tolerate" suggests a painful, forced patience, while "acceptance" is more peaceful and centering.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
daughter has a volatile temper and work with her on better ways to respond to
upsetting situations. However, I don't/will not tolerate her hitting, pushing,
biting her brothers or me when she is angry, frustrated, or feeling anxious. My
intolerance leads to finding different ways for both of us to respond, yet I am
not judging her temper.-=-
If you think of it as helping her live peacefully in the world, you don't need "intolerance."
Being a child's partner covers the problem in the idea of "acceptance," I think.
If I'm realistic about my partner's abilities and personality traits, I can cover and compensate for those in particular situations, or know when to retreat to some privacy, or to regroup and refuel.
-=-Maybe using these two words...-=-
"accept" and "tolerate"?
-=-Maybe using these two words would help parents struggling with accepting their
children for who they are better deal with such feelings of wanting to change
what is. For the parent that wants their child to have other interests, they
could accept their child's interests without tolerating certain manifestations
of those interests, for example.-=-
I don't think any child has an interest in having a volatile temper, so I don't understand that paragraph in light of the one before it.
What sort of interest would have aspects that needed to be tolerated or not tolerated? Playing ball in the house? Unauthorized body piercings?
"Manifestations" isn't a good word to use when "action" or "choice" would be clearer and more helpful.
I agree absolutely that some people "accept" bad behavior and call it "accepting their child as he is." But I don't thin "intolerance" is a good counter-balance to that. Being a good partner is more peaceful and more loving than whether to tolerate or to be intolerant, I think. "Tolerate" suggests a painful, forced patience, while "acceptance" is more peaceful and centering.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I think more information is necessary to determine whether the original poster is being passive or not. -=-
We don't need to know anything more about the original poster, because once the idea is out on the list, we're playing with the idea itself. Joyce wrote this great description years ago, and it's linked from the intro page:
---------
The list is about ideas, not about people.
Think of ideas like balls and the list like a ball court. If someone tosses an idea worth discussing into the court it's going to get batted about. At that point what's going on is no longer about the person who tossed the idea in. It's about the idea and how well and cleanly it's being tossed about. (Unless the tosser keeps jumping in and grabbing the idea ball saying "Mine!")
Joyce
------------
-=-. I feel like a lot of my time and energy is put into making sure that there are lots of things around the house that the kids will like and enjoy. In order to do that, I need to know what their interests are. There are some things that I would not get because I know that my kids do not like those things and would be offended if I brought them into the house because it would mean that I had completely ignored who they are and what their interests are.-=-
That's too inflexible and too "child led" to be expansive. I don't think they would be offended, and I don't think you would have "completely ignored" them by bringing something new into the house. Strewing isn't about "complete the set" of Pokemon or another already-known interest. It's about bringing something new and different and intriguing in and not worrying whether they jump on it and play for hours, or whether they don't even notice it. There's nothing on earth to be offended about there.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
We don't need to know anything more about the original poster, because once the idea is out on the list, we're playing with the idea itself. Joyce wrote this great description years ago, and it's linked from the intro page:
---------
The list is about ideas, not about people.
Think of ideas like balls and the list like a ball court. If someone tosses an idea worth discussing into the court it's going to get batted about. At that point what's going on is no longer about the person who tossed the idea in. It's about the idea and how well and cleanly it's being tossed about. (Unless the tosser keeps jumping in and grabbing the idea ball saying "Mine!")
Joyce
------------
-=-. I feel like a lot of my time and energy is put into making sure that there are lots of things around the house that the kids will like and enjoy. In order to do that, I need to know what their interests are. There are some things that I would not get because I know that my kids do not like those things and would be offended if I brought them into the house because it would mean that I had completely ignored who they are and what their interests are.-=-
That's too inflexible and too "child led" to be expansive. I don't think they would be offended, and I don't think you would have "completely ignored" them by bringing something new into the house. Strewing isn't about "complete the set" of Pokemon or another already-known interest. It's about bringing something new and different and intriguing in and not worrying whether they jump on it and play for hours, or whether they don't even notice it. There's nothing on earth to be offended about there.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=- it's
where parents can ask unschooled teens questions about their unschooling lives,
what they plan for the future, etc, so that parents with younger kids relax a
little bit about how kids "turn out".-=-
I've heard from two different people that on facebook there's a "group" (a page) where someone is badmouthing at least two of my kids by name--Holly and Kirby. I'm not going to go and look at it (at least not today), because I'm in Durham and tomorrow I'll be in Sheffield, and I'm not sitting around in Albuquerque as I more usually am. But it's stunning to me that adults would be badmouthing my now-grown offspring by name in an attempt to discredit unschooling and unschoolers. My kids are fine, they're happy, they're healthy, they're cool people.
-=-even if the kid wants to be a tattoo artist or a burlesque dancer
and went on to expand on how a parent who might be uncomfortable with those
passions could find value in them and be supportive. One parent in the audience
firmly stated that she didn't agree with that at all, that as a parent, she had
the right and responsibility to not support a passion she didn't agree with and
that she, as that parent, should make sure that her child knew why she wasn't
supportive of it.-=-
I could be supportive of future tattoo interests or burlesque dancing aspirations, but wouldn't encourage an underage child to do anything that was illegal. So although I understand the gasp of the crowd, I also understand (maybe; I wasn't there) the sentiment that not all things can or should be equally supported.
That said, though, when I was fourteen or so my mom said that I could probably do/be anything I wanted to and that she didn't care what I did when I grew up, as long as it wasn't prostitution. Of course that stuck in the not-so-distant back of my mind as a possible career path, but I never had the requisite talent or personality for it.
So I never told any of my children "never work as a prostitute," but that doesn't mean I accept or tolerate or am supportive of Future Hookers of America. The more general ideas about being honest, responsible, safe and helping make the world a better place tend to cover those things without the specifics.
-=-Gracious is a good word there! We WANT to be gracious with our kids! Finding
ways to support our kids in what they want to do, even if it makes us terribly
uncomfortable, is so earth shatteringly mind changing that you can't help but
grow as a person to do it. We get to learn how to be better people because of
our kids and that is awesome and our kids can reap the benefits of that in huge
life transforming ways.-=-
I hope I could be gracious about "I want to be a tattoo artist" or "I can dance! I have a nice bod! They pay for this sort of thing!" (Marty did go as a Chippendale dancer one Halloween and I did make the tear-off dress shirt that leaves the cuffs and collars. Robyn Coburn helped me design it, at a distance. :-) So maybe I have supported burlesque dancing more than most parents. :-)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
where parents can ask unschooled teens questions about their unschooling lives,
what they plan for the future, etc, so that parents with younger kids relax a
little bit about how kids "turn out".-=-
I've heard from two different people that on facebook there's a "group" (a page) where someone is badmouthing at least two of my kids by name--Holly and Kirby. I'm not going to go and look at it (at least not today), because I'm in Durham and tomorrow I'll be in Sheffield, and I'm not sitting around in Albuquerque as I more usually am. But it's stunning to me that adults would be badmouthing my now-grown offspring by name in an attempt to discredit unschooling and unschoolers. My kids are fine, they're happy, they're healthy, they're cool people.
-=-even if the kid wants to be a tattoo artist or a burlesque dancer
and went on to expand on how a parent who might be uncomfortable with those
passions could find value in them and be supportive. One parent in the audience
firmly stated that she didn't agree with that at all, that as a parent, she had
the right and responsibility to not support a passion she didn't agree with and
that she, as that parent, should make sure that her child knew why she wasn't
supportive of it.-=-
I could be supportive of future tattoo interests or burlesque dancing aspirations, but wouldn't encourage an underage child to do anything that was illegal. So although I understand the gasp of the crowd, I also understand (maybe; I wasn't there) the sentiment that not all things can or should be equally supported.
That said, though, when I was fourteen or so my mom said that I could probably do/be anything I wanted to and that she didn't care what I did when I grew up, as long as it wasn't prostitution. Of course that stuck in the not-so-distant back of my mind as a possible career path, but I never had the requisite talent or personality for it.
So I never told any of my children "never work as a prostitute," but that doesn't mean I accept or tolerate or am supportive of Future Hookers of America. The more general ideas about being honest, responsible, safe and helping make the world a better place tend to cover those things without the specifics.
-=-Gracious is a good word there! We WANT to be gracious with our kids! Finding
ways to support our kids in what they want to do, even if it makes us terribly
uncomfortable, is so earth shatteringly mind changing that you can't help but
grow as a person to do it. We get to learn how to be better people because of
our kids and that is awesome and our kids can reap the benefits of that in huge
life transforming ways.-=-
I hope I could be gracious about "I want to be a tattoo artist" or "I can dance! I have a nice bod! They pay for this sort of thing!" (Marty did go as a Chippendale dancer one Halloween and I did make the tear-off dress shirt that leaves the cuffs and collars. Robyn Coburn helped me design it, at a distance. :-) So maybe I have supported burlesque dancing more than most parents. :-)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
On 5/31/2011 11:59 PM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
allowing whatever.....
I liked more what Sandra said about being realistic - maybe the kind of
accepting meant is "accepting reality." That does seem, to me, to be
peaceful and centering, even when the reality being accepted is not,
itself, peaceful.
I'm a little bothered by what seems sometimes an over-emphasis on
accepting a child for who he is....that phrase worries me a bit. I'd
rather think of parents as supporting their child to become who he wants
to be.
My oldest daughter once said that one of the necessary qualities she
would require in a spouse would be that he'd be into always becoming a
better person, a more interesting person, a kinder person, etc. I
realize this can go too far and such a person could never feel okay
about themselves, but I think what she meant was that she wanted a
spouse who wasn't complacent and self-satisfied as if he was "done" with
developing himself, but who wanted to live an examined life and
consciously think about his own behavior and his character, etc.
Parents can sometimes be too accepting, I think, in the sense that they
don't even offer their kids support to improve their own behaviors and
character. If a child is kicking the parent and screaming at the parent,
the parent can "accept" it by completely ignoring the behavior and never
helping the child consider other options. Or the parent can accept the
reality that the child is sensitive or volatile and set up an
environment to make the child and others safer and happier and the
parent can, over time, help the child find more productive and happier
ways to react. How the parent approaches it will depend on the child and
the circumstances, but I worry that "accept" is sometimes heard as "do
nothing."
-pam
> "Tolerate" suggests a painful, forced patience, while "acceptance" isAccepting seems more and more often, these days, to mean passively
> more peaceful and centering.
allowing whatever.....
I liked more what Sandra said about being realistic - maybe the kind of
accepting meant is "accepting reality." That does seem, to me, to be
peaceful and centering, even when the reality being accepted is not,
itself, peaceful.
I'm a little bothered by what seems sometimes an over-emphasis on
accepting a child for who he is....that phrase worries me a bit. I'd
rather think of parents as supporting their child to become who he wants
to be.
My oldest daughter once said that one of the necessary qualities she
would require in a spouse would be that he'd be into always becoming a
better person, a more interesting person, a kinder person, etc. I
realize this can go too far and such a person could never feel okay
about themselves, but I think what she meant was that she wanted a
spouse who wasn't complacent and self-satisfied as if he was "done" with
developing himself, but who wanted to live an examined life and
consciously think about his own behavior and his character, etc.
Parents can sometimes be too accepting, I think, in the sense that they
don't even offer their kids support to improve their own behaviors and
character. If a child is kicking the parent and screaming at the parent,
the parent can "accept" it by completely ignoring the behavior and never
helping the child consider other options. Or the parent can accept the
reality that the child is sensitive or volatile and set up an
environment to make the child and others safer and happier and the
parent can, over time, help the child find more productive and happier
ways to react. How the parent approaches it will depend on the child and
the circumstances, but I worry that "accept" is sometimes heard as "do
nothing."
-pam
Sandra Dodd
-=-What do they DO? Watch TV?
Play games? What? There's your answer. That's what they find interesting,
that's what interests them, really. See what they like about it, find out
interesting those things are and make it more interesting. Do that more. If
they like music, look it up on Youtube and then do video chasing, follow the
next most interesting thing on that list on the right. THAT is how you find
interesting rabbit trails and expand and learn more and more.-=-
I think this is a time for considering other senses, though, too.
http://sandradodd.com/checklists
If a kid is watching TV it doesn't mean he wants more TV. Maybe he wants food, stuffed animals, card games, live performances, outside adventure play, costumes, make-up, something else related to the topic of the TV program or movie.
If they like music maybe they want posters of the musicians, or to hear biographical information on them, or to know what other groups they were in, or what other groups are like that. They might want to know more about Manchester, or London or Gary, Indiana.
http://sandradodd.com/dot/elvis
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Play games? What? There's your answer. That's what they find interesting,
that's what interests them, really. See what they like about it, find out
interesting those things are and make it more interesting. Do that more. If
they like music, look it up on Youtube and then do video chasing, follow the
next most interesting thing on that list on the right. THAT is how you find
interesting rabbit trails and expand and learn more and more.-=-
I think this is a time for considering other senses, though, too.
http://sandradodd.com/checklists
If a kid is watching TV it doesn't mean he wants more TV. Maybe he wants food, stuffed animals, card games, live performances, outside adventure play, costumes, make-up, something else related to the topic of the TV program or movie.
If they like music maybe they want posters of the musicians, or to hear biographical information on them, or to know what other groups they were in, or what other groups are like that. They might want to know more about Manchester, or London or Gary, Indiana.
http://sandradodd.com/dot/elvis
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=Parents can sometimes be too accepting, I think, in the sense that they
don't even offer their kids support to improve their own behaviors and
character. If a child is kicking the parent and screaming at the parent,
the parent can "accept" it by completely ignoring the behavior and never
helping the child consider other options. Or the parent can accept the
reality that the child is sensitive or volatile and set up an
environment to make the child and others safer and happier and the
parent can, over time, help the child find more productive and happier
ways to react. How the parent approaches it will depend on the child and
the circumstances, but I worry that "accept" is sometimes heard as "do
nothing."-=-
YES.
And that's the problem with this list.
And that's the glorious advantage and wonder of this list.
Those ideas are NOT simple little rules, or happy-sounding slogans. It's NOT "nothing." It's a deep and thoughtful something. :-)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
don't even offer their kids support to improve their own behaviors and
character. If a child is kicking the parent and screaming at the parent,
the parent can "accept" it by completely ignoring the behavior and never
helping the child consider other options. Or the parent can accept the
reality that the child is sensitive or volatile and set up an
environment to make the child and others safer and happier and the
parent can, over time, help the child find more productive and happier
ways to react. How the parent approaches it will depend on the child and
the circumstances, but I worry that "accept" is sometimes heard as "do
nothing."-=-
YES.
And that's the problem with this list.
And that's the glorious advantage and wonder of this list.
Those ideas are NOT simple little rules, or happy-sounding slogans. It's NOT "nothing." It's a deep and thoughtful something. :-)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
dola dasgupta-banerji
Well just last evening Ishaan my 5 year old son, wanted to buy a French
language book with picture of Eiffel Tower in it. So we went looking. Found
many French language books but none with pictures of Eiffel tower. Of course
if I look on Amazon or Flipcart then I might find it. But he was getting
upset. So then I thought of looking at the travel section for travel
guides...And showed some on France to him. He was immediately interested in
buying one of the pocket books which had all the pictures and maps he
wanted. Then on his own he picked up another one of New York.
He was so happy and has been going through them since last evening. we also
picked up some picture flash cards for French, He cannot read but we are
still having fun.
We navigate a lot on Google Earth to see all the cities he likes....
All that he wanted is available on the net too...but he wanted books...
At the book shop for a split second I was beginning to loose it and ready to
get out without a solution...but I am glad I was alert and aware and decided
to try another alternative.... that has worked out so well...
Dola
On Tue, May 31, 2011 at 10:26 PM, Pam Sorooshian
<pamsoroosh@...>wrote:
language book with picture of Eiffel Tower in it. So we went looking. Found
many French language books but none with pictures of Eiffel tower. Of course
if I look on Amazon or Flipcart then I might find it. But he was getting
upset. So then I thought of looking at the travel section for travel
guides...And showed some on France to him. He was immediately interested in
buying one of the pocket books which had all the pictures and maps he
wanted. Then on his own he picked up another one of New York.
He was so happy and has been going through them since last evening. we also
picked up some picture flash cards for French, He cannot read but we are
still having fun.
We navigate a lot on Google Earth to see all the cities he likes....
All that he wanted is available on the net too...but he wanted books...
At the book shop for a split second I was beginning to loose it and ready to
get out without a solution...but I am glad I was alert and aware and decided
to try another alternative.... that has worked out so well...
Dola
On Tue, May 31, 2011 at 10:26 PM, Pam Sorooshian
<pamsoroosh@...>wrote:
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> On 5/30/2011 10:40 AM, plaidpanties666 wrote:
> > >What I see is that I have been happy when they have found something
> > to do, but I haven't helped them find the little paths that led off.
> > ******************
> >
> > You don't need to be looking for "little paths that lead off" so much
> > as looking for what interests your kids right now.
>
> I do think parents should be expanding their child's world and that's
> not going to happen if the parent is just "happy when they have found
> something to do." That sounds too passive for an unschooling parent.
>
> Find the little paths that lead off to more interesting and fun things.
> And find new and different interesting and fun things. Offer them
> generously but not insistently.
>
> -pam
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
DaBreeze21
> YES.I think when I first started reading about Unschooling and reading here, some of my first posts (which are almost embarrassing to read now, in that if I had just searched the archives or Sandra's or Joyces wesites I would have found more than enough to read to "answer" my questions! Thank you AGAIN all you experienced people for your patience!) were really me wanting new rules for how to do Unschooling "right". I definitely think that a huge part of deschooling for myself was figuring this out - that there are no simple rules and a lot of "getting it" means being mindful of choices and different possibilities.
> And that's the problem with this list.
> And that's the glorious advantage and wonder of this list.
>
> Those ideas are NOT simple little rules, or happy-sounding slogans. It's NOT "nothing." It's a deep and thoughtful something. :-)
Lately I am feeling a little overwhelmed because now I am almost examining/thinking TOO much (if that is possible?) I'm tired of overthinking every little (and big) thing, thought, decision etc. I'm beginning to realize that I need to start doing more and reading/thinking less. Not that I am going to stop (not possible for me anyways) but not to be paralyzed and missing out on life because I'm thinking about it too much!
Peacefully Yours,
Susan May
www.hypnobabies4peace.com
Sandra Dodd
-=-Lately I am feeling a little overwhelmed because now I am almost examining/thinking TOO much (if that is possible?)-=-
Sure. And there's reading too much, too, which is why "Read a little, try a little, wait a while, watch" turns out to be a good tool.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sure. And there's reading too much, too, which is why "Read a little, try a little, wait a while, watch" turns out to be a good tool.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lisa E Biesemeyer
-=I don't think any child has an interest in having a volatile temper, so I
don't understand that paragraph in light of the one before it.=-
I was referring to the original post, where the parents were not accepting of
their child's interests. I should have made that more clear. And, yes, I agree;
my daughter does not want to have a volatile temper. I think it actually scares
her. But, I cannot speak for other children/people. I have met troubled young
people who (claim to) like that they have tempers. My dad would tell stories
about his out of control temper like he was talking about a talent or a gift.
-=If you think of it as helping her live peacefully in the world, you don't need
"intolerance."Being a child's partner covers the problem in the idea of
"acceptance," I think. =-
I thought a while before using 'intolerance'. I was looking at Scott Noelle's
way of using tolerance and INtolerance (that's how he wrote it), and I decided
to attempt to apply it. It certainly sounds ugly to me now. What I mean is
that when I am am not tolerating a particular action (my daughter hurting others
when she is angry), I choose to find a creative solution to respond to her
(rather than using traditionally accepted top-down parenting practices like
punishment) as well as help her find creative alternatives to being hurtful when
she is angry. So, in effect, I am not tolerating the chosen expression of her
anger (hitting), and I accept that she is angry and needs to express it. This
combo leads to both of us finding creative ways to work with expressing anger.
-=Being a child's partner covers the problem in the idea of "acceptance," I
think.=-
Maybe to you. But Joyce, I think it was, was claiming that she was having a
challenging time with the use of the word "acceptance" when working with other
parents struggling with being acceptant of their child's interests. My
understanding of her dilemma was that saying, "accept your child" means to such
parents that they are being asked to support all that a child does or wants to
explore. So, I offered that I think one can accept without necessarily
tolerating.
-=What sort of interest would have aspects that needed to be tolerated or not
tolerated? Playing ball in the house? Unauthorized body piercings?-=
I was thinking more along the lines of actual physical violence to hurt others,
watching or participating in pornography, illegal street racing, using drugs
without guidance... I had a boyfriend who enjoyed getting drunk and beating the
hell out of people. If my teen son enjoyed fighting, I could attempt to support
that interest by getting him involved in boxing, for example. But I would not
support/tolerate him going out and beating people up on the street.
-="Manifestations" isn't a good word to use when "action" or "choice" would be
clearer and more helpful.=-
Ok. Revision: For the parent that wants their child to have other interests,
they could instead accept their child's interests without tolerating certain
choices or ways of acting out those interests.
Lisa B
Lisa Biesemeyer
________________________________
From: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tue, May 31, 2011 11:59:31 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Wishing the best for kids (was Unschooling ideas)
-=-So, for example, I have decided to accept (rather than not accept) that my
5yo
daughter has a volatile temper and work with her on better ways to respond to
upsetting situations. However, I don't/will not tolerate her hitting, pushing,
biting her brothers or me when she is angry, frustrated, or feeling anxious. My
intolerance leads to finding different ways for both of us to respond, yet I am
not judging her temper.-=-
If you think of it as helping her live peacefully in the world, you don't need
"intolerance."
Being a child's partner covers the problem in the idea of "acceptance," I think.
If I'm realistic about my partner's abilities and personality traits, I can
cover and compensate for those in particular situations, or know when to retreat
to some privacy, or to regroup and refuel.
-=-Maybe using these two words...-=-
"accept" and "tolerate"?
-=-Maybe using these two words would help parents struggling with accepting
their
children for who they are better deal with such feelings of wanting to change
what is.
I don't think any child has an interest in having a volatile temper, so I don't
understand that paragraph in light of the one before it.
What sort of interest would have aspects that needed to be tolerated or not
tolerated? Playing ball in the house? Unauthorized body piercings?
"Manifestations" isn't a good word to use when "action" or "choice" would be
clearer and more helpful.
I agree absolutely that some people "accept" bad behavior and call it "accepting
their child as he is." But I don't thin "intolerance" is a good
counter-balance to that. Being a good partner is more peaceful and more loving
than whether to tolerate or to be intolerant, I think. "Tolerate" suggests a
painful, forced patience, while "acceptance" is more peaceful and centering.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
don't understand that paragraph in light of the one before it.=-
I was referring to the original post, where the parents were not accepting of
their child's interests. I should have made that more clear. And, yes, I agree;
my daughter does not want to have a volatile temper. I think it actually scares
her. But, I cannot speak for other children/people. I have met troubled young
people who (claim to) like that they have tempers. My dad would tell stories
about his out of control temper like he was talking about a talent or a gift.
-=If you think of it as helping her live peacefully in the world, you don't need
"intolerance."Being a child's partner covers the problem in the idea of
"acceptance," I think. =-
I thought a while before using 'intolerance'. I was looking at Scott Noelle's
way of using tolerance and INtolerance (that's how he wrote it), and I decided
to attempt to apply it. It certainly sounds ugly to me now. What I mean is
that when I am am not tolerating a particular action (my daughter hurting others
when she is angry), I choose to find a creative solution to respond to her
(rather than using traditionally accepted top-down parenting practices like
punishment) as well as help her find creative alternatives to being hurtful when
she is angry. So, in effect, I am not tolerating the chosen expression of her
anger (hitting), and I accept that she is angry and needs to express it. This
combo leads to both of us finding creative ways to work with expressing anger.
-=Being a child's partner covers the problem in the idea of "acceptance," I
think.=-
Maybe to you. But Joyce, I think it was, was claiming that she was having a
challenging time with the use of the word "acceptance" when working with other
parents struggling with being acceptant of their child's interests. My
understanding of her dilemma was that saying, "accept your child" means to such
parents that they are being asked to support all that a child does or wants to
explore. So, I offered that I think one can accept without necessarily
tolerating.
-=What sort of interest would have aspects that needed to be tolerated or not
tolerated? Playing ball in the house? Unauthorized body piercings?-=
I was thinking more along the lines of actual physical violence to hurt others,
watching or participating in pornography, illegal street racing, using drugs
without guidance... I had a boyfriend who enjoyed getting drunk and beating the
hell out of people. If my teen son enjoyed fighting, I could attempt to support
that interest by getting him involved in boxing, for example. But I would not
support/tolerate him going out and beating people up on the street.
-="Manifestations" isn't a good word to use when "action" or "choice" would be
clearer and more helpful.=-
Ok. Revision: For the parent that wants their child to have other interests,
they could instead accept their child's interests without tolerating certain
choices or ways of acting out those interests.
Lisa B
Lisa Biesemeyer
________________________________
From: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tue, May 31, 2011 11:59:31 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Wishing the best for kids (was Unschooling ideas)
-=-So, for example, I have decided to accept (rather than not accept) that my
5yo
daughter has a volatile temper and work with her on better ways to respond to
upsetting situations. However, I don't/will not tolerate her hitting, pushing,
biting her brothers or me when she is angry, frustrated, or feeling anxious. My
intolerance leads to finding different ways for both of us to respond, yet I am
not judging her temper.-=-
If you think of it as helping her live peacefully in the world, you don't need
"intolerance."
Being a child's partner covers the problem in the idea of "acceptance," I think.
If I'm realistic about my partner's abilities and personality traits, I can
cover and compensate for those in particular situations, or know when to retreat
to some privacy, or to regroup and refuel.
-=-Maybe using these two words...-=-
"accept" and "tolerate"?
-=-Maybe using these two words would help parents struggling with accepting
their
children for who they are better deal with such feelings of wanting to change
what is.
I don't think any child has an interest in having a volatile temper, so I don't
understand that paragraph in light of the one before it.
What sort of interest would have aspects that needed to be tolerated or not
tolerated? Playing ball in the house? Unauthorized body piercings?
"Manifestations" isn't a good word to use when "action" or "choice" would be
clearer and more helpful.
I agree absolutely that some people "accept" bad behavior and call it "accepting
their child as he is." But I don't thin "intolerance" is a good
counter-balance to that. Being a good partner is more peaceful and more loving
than whether to tolerate or to be intolerant, I think. "Tolerate" suggests a
painful, forced patience, while "acceptance" is more peaceful and centering.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]