Why do people say TV rots brains out?
renee_cabatic
My 10 year old son, Xander, asked me why some people say that TV rots your brain. He was thinking literally of 'rot' and knew that wasn't true. I didn't know the origin of the saying so I asked if I could post the question here on Always Learning and then I googled it and found this study:
http://www.dcmp.org/caai/nadh174.pdf
We only read the abstract and a bit of the intro. The study found no evidence of negative effect from television viewing and an actual increase test scores.
But we are still wondering where the idea that TV will rot a persons brain out originated. Any thoughts?
Renee Cabatic
http://www.dcmp.org/caai/nadh174.pdf
We only read the abstract and a bit of the intro. The study found no evidence of negative effect from television viewing and an actual increase test scores.
But we are still wondering where the idea that TV will rot a persons brain out originated. Any thoughts?
Renee Cabatic
Sandra Dodd
-=-But we are still wondering where the idea that TV will rot a persons brain out originated. Any thoughts?-=-
TV is one stop on a long trail of "will rot your brain" demons.
I might leave some out, but first it was secular books.
Then paperbacks.
Then comic books.
TV
Video games
Parallel to that,
swing music
rock and roll
hip hop
There's a tradition of adults demonizing kids' interests. It's part of trying to control them through shame, I think.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
TV is one stop on a long trail of "will rot your brain" demons.
I might leave some out, but first it was secular books.
Then paperbacks.
Then comic books.
TV
Video games
Parallel to that,
swing music
rock and roll
hip hop
There's a tradition of adults demonizing kids' interests. It's part of trying to control them through shame, I think.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Colleen
*****There's a tradition of adults demonizing kids' interests. It's part of trying to control them through shame, I think.*****
Also, I wonder if ideas like "an idle brain is the devil's workshop" come into play for some folks. If people think of TV watching as passive, it'd seem to follow that there would be all sorts of opportunity for the devil to be up to mischief while a child is watching the screen. Well, if you believe that sort of thing of course ;-)
Also, I wonder if ideas like "an idle brain is the devil's workshop" come into play for some folks. If people think of TV watching as passive, it'd seem to follow that there would be all sorts of opportunity for the devil to be up to mischief while a child is watching the screen. Well, if you believe that sort of thing of course ;-)
Sandra Dodd
-=-Also, I wonder if ideas like "an idle brain is the devil's workshop" come into play for some folks. If people think of TV watching as passive, it'd seem to follow that there would be all sorts of opportunity for the devil to be up to mischief while a child is watching the screen. -=-
Definitely all the puritan subtexts of our unconscious.
There's a phrase used in Baptist sermons warning people to be vigilant for the second coming of Christ. They say "Will Jesus find us watching?"
It has long amused me to picture a bumper sticker that says "Will Jesus find us watching? PBS." Or some advertisement for public television.
But certainly, the idea that we should be ready to look busy when Jesus comes is likely in the top ten of priorities in some families, consciously and overtly.
When I was a kid I was told tales of the benefits or horrors of children (just children, never adults) and eating (or not eating) bread crusts, drinking coffee, eating chocolate, or biting fingernails. Those things were told as truths. Bad things would happen (or good, in the case of doing what the parents wanted you to do with those things).
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Definitely all the puritan subtexts of our unconscious.
There's a phrase used in Baptist sermons warning people to be vigilant for the second coming of Christ. They say "Will Jesus find us watching?"
It has long amused me to picture a bumper sticker that says "Will Jesus find us watching? PBS." Or some advertisement for public television.
But certainly, the idea that we should be ready to look busy when Jesus comes is likely in the top ten of priorities in some families, consciously and overtly.
When I was a kid I was told tales of the benefits or horrors of children (just children, never adults) and eating (or not eating) bread crusts, drinking coffee, eating chocolate, or biting fingernails. Those things were told as truths. Bad things would happen (or good, in the case of doing what the parents wanted you to do with those things).
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
semajrak
I have a somewhat funny story to share here.
Friends of ours practice a more traditional way of living. Their children go to school, and tv time is somewhat limited. One day the mom said to her son that he shouldn't be watching so much tv because his brain would shrink. The next day, the boy was outside with us and he told his mom he had a headache. When his mom expressed concern, he stated that he thought his brain was growing too big for his head, so he better get inside and watch some tv to shrink it.
He really didn't have a headache. She looked at me and asked me what to do in an exasperated kind of way. I said she should go in and watch some tv with him. It sounded like there was something he really wanted to see. I laughed, and said I thought her son was great. Honestly, I thought it was an inspired attempt to get his needs met and the transparency of it made mom think, I think. It did me :)
Friends of ours practice a more traditional way of living. Their children go to school, and tv time is somewhat limited. One day the mom said to her son that he shouldn't be watching so much tv because his brain would shrink. The next day, the boy was outside with us and he told his mom he had a headache. When his mom expressed concern, he stated that he thought his brain was growing too big for his head, so he better get inside and watch some tv to shrink it.
He really didn't have a headache. She looked at me and asked me what to do in an exasperated kind of way. I said she should go in and watch some tv with him. It sounded like there was something he really wanted to see. I laughed, and said I thought her son was great. Honestly, I thought it was an inspired attempt to get his needs met and the transparency of it made mom think, I think. It did me :)
buttsbees
I do not have a TV. But a computer,which at this point is similar. I have read that the brain is almost sleeping when watching TV but just awake enough to allow you to remember. If you were to watch a documentary it is engaged. It is a major tool to build a consumer society(repetition) and while there are bits of good, documentaries etc, I don´t think it is enough. I know, I am a product of the 70ś TV gen but I hate that I still have in my head ¨Plop, Plop, Fizz,Fizz....¨
and I want to remember the last books I read!
My kids are amazed that the day is gone when movies are on, almost sad. But the draw to the screen is strong.
Like Timothy Leary said ¨Control your eyes, control your reality.¨
The links are just some of what is out there.
http://www.csun.edu/science/health/docs/tv&health.html
http://www.projectcensored.org/top-stories/articles/the-pentagons-child-recruiting-strategy/
http://www.turnoffyourtv.com/
http://www.eruptingmind.com/effects-of-tv-on-brain/
http://programmingthenation.com/facts.shtml
and I want to remember the last books I read!
My kids are amazed that the day is gone when movies are on, almost sad. But the draw to the screen is strong.
Like Timothy Leary said ¨Control your eyes, control your reality.¨
The links are just some of what is out there.
http://www.csun.edu/science/health/docs/tv&health.html
http://www.projectcensored.org/top-stories/articles/the-pentagons-child-recruiting-strategy/
http://www.turnoffyourtv.com/
http://www.eruptingmind.com/effects-of-tv-on-brain/
http://programmingthenation.com/facts.shtml
buttsbees
Found it! I think....
¨TV rots the senses in the head!
It kills the imagination dead!
It clogs and clutters up the mind!
It makes a child so dull and blind.
He can no longer understand a fantasy,
A fairyland!
His brain becomes as soft as cheese!
His powers of thinking rust and freeze!¨
An excerpt from Charlie and the Chocolate Factory,
By Roald Dahl, 1964
Love Roald Dahl, his stories are wonderful reading.
¨TV rots the senses in the head!
It kills the imagination dead!
It clogs and clutters up the mind!
It makes a child so dull and blind.
He can no longer understand a fantasy,
A fairyland!
His brain becomes as soft as cheese!
His powers of thinking rust and freeze!¨
An excerpt from Charlie and the Chocolate Factory,
By Roald Dahl, 1964
Love Roald Dahl, his stories are wonderful reading.
Joyce Fetteroll
On May 3, 2011, at 9:24 AM, buttsbees wrote:
for a long time. I recall that one of the great ancient philosophers
disdained books because then people wouldn't need to memorize anymore.
Hard to know if Roald Dahl was the first to connect rotting brains and
TV though he is certainly popular enough for a lot of people to have
read him.
There was a good discussion of Roald Dahl and TV and his rather
horrific upbringing.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/message/57346
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> TV rots the senses in the head!The concept of new fangled things rotting the brain has been around
for a long time. I recall that one of the great ancient philosophers
disdained books because then people wouldn't need to memorize anymore.
Hard to know if Roald Dahl was the first to connect rotting brains and
TV though he is certainly popular enough for a lot of people to have
read him.
There was a good discussion of Roald Dahl and TV and his rather
horrific upbringing.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/message/57346
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
But none of those things are true.
So if one "side" is spouting nonsense, that always adds points to the injured party.
-=-TV rots the senses in the head!
It kills the imagination dead!
It clogs and clutters up the mind!
It makes a child so dull and blind.
He can no longer understand a fantasy,
A fairyland!
His brain becomes as soft as cheese!
His powers of thinking rust and freeze!¨
An excerpt from Charlie and the Chocolate Factory,
By Roald Dahl, 1964-=-
In 1964, TV was about ten years old. It wasn't in color yet, really.
The note above was part two to this, which I suppose one of the moderators returned.
---------------
I do not have a TV. But a computer,which at this point is similar. I have read that the brain is almost sleeping when watching TV but just awake enough to allow you to remember. If you were to watch a documentary it is engaged. It is a major tool to build a consumer society(repetition) and while there are bits of good, documentaries etc, I don´t think it is enough. I know, I am a product of the 70ś TV gen but I hate that I still have in my head ¨Plop, Plop, Fizz,Fizz....¨
and I want to remember the last books I read!
My kids are amazed that the day is gone when movies are on, almost sad. But the draw to the screen is strong.
Like Timothy Leary said ¨Control your eyes, control your reality.¨
The links are just some of what is out there.
http://www.csun.edu/science/health/docs/tv&health.html
http://www.projectcensored.org/top-stories/articles/the-pentagons-child-recruiting-strategy/
http://www.turnoffyourtv.com/
http://www.eruptingmind.com/effects-of-tv-on-brain/
http://programmingthenation.com/facts.shtml
----------------
I'm going to respond to some of that separately, but as to the anti-TV links, here are many others. They're as ugly and negative as the worst things I've ever seen on TV, but they have no redeeming value outside their dark negative fearmongering.
http://sandradodd.com/t/anti
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
So if one "side" is spouting nonsense, that always adds points to the injured party.
-=-TV rots the senses in the head!
It kills the imagination dead!
It clogs and clutters up the mind!
It makes a child so dull and blind.
He can no longer understand a fantasy,
A fairyland!
His brain becomes as soft as cheese!
His powers of thinking rust and freeze!¨
An excerpt from Charlie and the Chocolate Factory,
By Roald Dahl, 1964-=-
In 1964, TV was about ten years old. It wasn't in color yet, really.
The note above was part two to this, which I suppose one of the moderators returned.
---------------
I do not have a TV. But a computer,which at this point is similar. I have read that the brain is almost sleeping when watching TV but just awake enough to allow you to remember. If you were to watch a documentary it is engaged. It is a major tool to build a consumer society(repetition) and while there are bits of good, documentaries etc, I don´t think it is enough. I know, I am a product of the 70ś TV gen but I hate that I still have in my head ¨Plop, Plop, Fizz,Fizz....¨
and I want to remember the last books I read!
My kids are amazed that the day is gone when movies are on, almost sad. But the draw to the screen is strong.
Like Timothy Leary said ¨Control your eyes, control your reality.¨
The links are just some of what is out there.
http://www.csun.edu/science/health/docs/tv&health.html
http://www.projectcensored.org/top-stories/articles/the-pentagons-child-recruiting-strategy/
http://www.turnoffyourtv.com/
http://www.eruptingmind.com/effects-of-tv-on-brain/
http://programmingthenation.com/facts.shtml
----------------
I'm going to respond to some of that separately, but as to the anti-TV links, here are many others. They're as ugly and negative as the worst things I've ever seen on TV, but they have no redeeming value outside their dark negative fearmongering.
http://sandradodd.com/t/anti
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=- I have read that the brain is almost sleeping when watching TV but just awake enough to allow you to remember-=-
Do you believe everything you read?
Does that seem true to you, from your own experience with TV?
Have you watched your children watch movies or videos? Do their brains seem to be almost sleeping?
Have you seen them listen to storytellers, or to music, or to you telling them something? Did they seem attentive, or almost sleeping? Did it depend on how interesting the story was?
-=-If you were to watch a documentary it is engaged.-=-
So documentaries are "engaging" and wake a person up, but a comedy or drama or an instructional video put their brains to sleep?
"If you were to watch a documentary" is an odd way to phrase that. Have you ever watched documentaries?
I have. It's not an "if." Some are wonderful. Some (mostly depending on me and my interest) are as boring as a bad day in a classroom.
-=- It is a major tool to build a consumer society(repetition) and while there are bits of good, documentaries etc, I don´t think it is enough.-=-
You don't think it's enough what for what?
How old are your children, and how long have you been unschooling? Those questions are important to gauging how much thought you might have put into how learning happens, and about the value of choices and openness to input.
If you wrote a book about the evils of TV, would you hope people would buy it? Would that be a tool in the creation of a consumer society? Is repetition what builds a consumer society? Who is building this consumer society? Is there a governing body? Who's in charge of that? You bought a computer. Is that because the consumer society made you do that, or did you actually want a computer?
I've owned a Mac of one sort or another since 1989 when I got a IIsi. I LOVED that computer. It had sound, and music. I had a keyboard, and a piano program called Miracle Piano that was wonderful. I wish it would work on other machines (and if it's out there again, someone please let me know, because I loved it). I didn't buy a Mac because of advertising. I bought it because I had worked with one doing word processing, and when my husband offered to buy me a new computer (I had a Kaypro II before that, with a daisy wheel printer), he asked whether I'd rather have a Mac or PC. He recommended a Mac, and I had liked the Mac 2 I had used, so.... Am I a cog in the machinery of the computer society?
But back to TV.
-=- I know, I am a product of the 70ś TV gen but I hate that I still have in my head ¨Plop, Plop, Fizz,Fizz....¨ and I want to remember the last books I read!-=-
I've been watching TV since the 1950's. I saw the first alkaseltzer commercial, and I've known that song for over 50 years. So? I still remember a Channel 11 commercial "Hey bud--whatcha lookin' at?" "Channel 11. GOOD lookin'." I remember hundreds of songs and jokes and kids' rhymes for games and jumprope and clapping that I learned from people, not from TV. I have a memory for tunes, and if something comes with a song, I can remember it. That's an ancient tool for putting memories in people, from psalms and proverbs to epic poems, ballads and sagas.
There are a few people who can remember narrative without repetition, rhyme, alliteration, rhythm or music, but not many. So don't blame TV or Alka-Seltzer if you can't remember the last books you read. It has nothing to do with it. It's not like your brain's all full up. There's plenty of room to make more connections.
-=-My kids are amazed that the day is gone when movies are on, almost sad. But the draw to the screen is strong.-=-
"The screen"? It draws you even when there's nobody talking or singing or dancing? I don't think so.
The day isn't gone when movies are on. In each moment, people make a choice. I doubt you have forced your children to watch a movie. They had a choice. I'm suspecting that your prejudice against "screens" is so strong that you've prompted them to feel bad (almost sad) or amazed that "the day is gone." But if you did that, you injected negativity into a situation that didn't need to be so.
Choose joy. Choose happiness. Choose to be with your children, and to see with your children.
http://sandradodd.com/again
http://sandradodd.com/t/movies
http://sandradodd.com/being
http://sandradodd.com/choices
and this has a photo of that computer I loved so much, and some info on Frank Smith's The Book of Learning and Forgetting
http://sandradodd.com/input
Sandra
Like Timothy Leary said ¨Control your eyes, control your reality.¨
-=-
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Do you believe everything you read?
Does that seem true to you, from your own experience with TV?
Have you watched your children watch movies or videos? Do their brains seem to be almost sleeping?
Have you seen them listen to storytellers, or to music, or to you telling them something? Did they seem attentive, or almost sleeping? Did it depend on how interesting the story was?
-=-If you were to watch a documentary it is engaged.-=-
So documentaries are "engaging" and wake a person up, but a comedy or drama or an instructional video put their brains to sleep?
"If you were to watch a documentary" is an odd way to phrase that. Have you ever watched documentaries?
I have. It's not an "if." Some are wonderful. Some (mostly depending on me and my interest) are as boring as a bad day in a classroom.
-=- It is a major tool to build a consumer society(repetition) and while there are bits of good, documentaries etc, I don´t think it is enough.-=-
You don't think it's enough what for what?
How old are your children, and how long have you been unschooling? Those questions are important to gauging how much thought you might have put into how learning happens, and about the value of choices and openness to input.
If you wrote a book about the evils of TV, would you hope people would buy it? Would that be a tool in the creation of a consumer society? Is repetition what builds a consumer society? Who is building this consumer society? Is there a governing body? Who's in charge of that? You bought a computer. Is that because the consumer society made you do that, or did you actually want a computer?
I've owned a Mac of one sort or another since 1989 when I got a IIsi. I LOVED that computer. It had sound, and music. I had a keyboard, and a piano program called Miracle Piano that was wonderful. I wish it would work on other machines (and if it's out there again, someone please let me know, because I loved it). I didn't buy a Mac because of advertising. I bought it because I had worked with one doing word processing, and when my husband offered to buy me a new computer (I had a Kaypro II before that, with a daisy wheel printer), he asked whether I'd rather have a Mac or PC. He recommended a Mac, and I had liked the Mac 2 I had used, so.... Am I a cog in the machinery of the computer society?
But back to TV.
-=- I know, I am a product of the 70ś TV gen but I hate that I still have in my head ¨Plop, Plop, Fizz,Fizz....¨ and I want to remember the last books I read!-=-
I've been watching TV since the 1950's. I saw the first alkaseltzer commercial, and I've known that song for over 50 years. So? I still remember a Channel 11 commercial "Hey bud--whatcha lookin' at?" "Channel 11. GOOD lookin'." I remember hundreds of songs and jokes and kids' rhymes for games and jumprope and clapping that I learned from people, not from TV. I have a memory for tunes, and if something comes with a song, I can remember it. That's an ancient tool for putting memories in people, from psalms and proverbs to epic poems, ballads and sagas.
There are a few people who can remember narrative without repetition, rhyme, alliteration, rhythm or music, but not many. So don't blame TV or Alka-Seltzer if you can't remember the last books you read. It has nothing to do with it. It's not like your brain's all full up. There's plenty of room to make more connections.
-=-My kids are amazed that the day is gone when movies are on, almost sad. But the draw to the screen is strong.-=-
"The screen"? It draws you even when there's nobody talking or singing or dancing? I don't think so.
The day isn't gone when movies are on. In each moment, people make a choice. I doubt you have forced your children to watch a movie. They had a choice. I'm suspecting that your prejudice against "screens" is so strong that you've prompted them to feel bad (almost sad) or amazed that "the day is gone." But if you did that, you injected negativity into a situation that didn't need to be so.
Choose joy. Choose happiness. Choose to be with your children, and to see with your children.
http://sandradodd.com/again
http://sandradodd.com/t/movies
http://sandradodd.com/being
http://sandradodd.com/choices
and this has a photo of that computer I loved so much, and some info on Frank Smith's The Book of Learning and Forgetting
http://sandradodd.com/input
Sandra
Like Timothy Leary said ¨Control your eyes, control your reality.¨
-=-
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
I meant to mention that one can't get to any of these without a screen:
The links are just some of what is out there.
http://www.csun.edu/science/health/docs/tv&health.html
http://www.projectcensored.org/top-stories/articles/the-pentagons-child-recruiting-strategy/
http://www.turnoffyourtv.com/
http://www.eruptingmind.com/effects-of-tv-on-brain/
http://programmingthenation.com/facts.shtml
and meant to include this link, too:
http://sandradodd.com/bookworship
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
The links are just some of what is out there.
http://www.csun.edu/science/health/docs/tv&health.html
http://www.projectcensored.org/top-stories/articles/the-pentagons-child-recruiting-strategy/
http://www.turnoffyourtv.com/
http://www.eruptingmind.com/effects-of-tv-on-brain/
http://programmingthenation.com/facts.shtml
and meant to include this link, too:
http://sandradodd.com/bookworship
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On May 3, 2011, at 9:18 AM, buttsbees wrote:
The original never-true-to-begin-with idea was that TV put people in a
trancelike state. Someone's added "just awake" to it because the the
original makes no sense in regards to people who actively watch TV.
Here's a couple of pages digging into the myths of TV:
http://tinyurl.com/2kprgh
http://tinyurl.com/yhuwxcx
What do you observe of unschooled children? What do you know of
personal experience?
I remember huge, vast amounts from shows on TV, documentaries and
fiction, commercials and talk shows. Images, facts, story lines. I
know lots and lots about the 20's to 50's before I was born beginning
with jokes in Bugs Bunny cartoons that were reinforced by watching
movies from that era, watching documentaries.
If someone takes their nose out of books about other people's
(supposed) observations and actually looks objectively at what's going
on, the statements about TV don't connect with reality! Book worship
seems to create more thoughtlessness than TV.
Fears sure do like to be fed!
Unschooling isn't about what parents like. It's about helping kids
explore what *they* like. On this list parents can find a lot of help
letting go of their biases so they can either get out of the way or
embrace something their kids enjoy to help their kids explore.
Another part is that it was repeated often.
As Sandra says, try not to hate. You can have that jingle in your head
with pleasant feelings or with negative feelings. You get to choose.
When kids enjoy something, they read it or watch it again. If you want
to remember the book you read, read it again. And again. Get it on
audio to engage another sense. If it's also a movie, watch the movie
version to add another sense in.
The stories and information happen to be available on screens.
to TV!
He also popularized "Turn on, tune in, drop out." He was a big
advocate of LSD as a beneficial drug.
Joyce
> I have read that the brain is almost sleeping when watching TV but"I have read ..." "If you were ..?"
> just awake enough to allow you to remember. If you were to watch a
> documentary it is engaged.
The original never-true-to-begin-with idea was that TV put people in a
trancelike state. Someone's added "just awake" to it because the the
original makes no sense in regards to people who actively watch TV.
Here's a couple of pages digging into the myths of TV:
http://tinyurl.com/2kprgh
http://tinyurl.com/yhuwxcx
What do you observe of unschooled children? What do you know of
personal experience?
I remember huge, vast amounts from shows on TV, documentaries and
fiction, commercials and talk shows. Images, facts, story lines. I
know lots and lots about the 20's to 50's before I was born beginning
with jokes in Bugs Bunny cartoons that were reinforced by watching
movies from that era, watching documentaries.
If someone takes their nose out of books about other people's
(supposed) observations and actually looks objectively at what's going
on, the statements about TV don't connect with reality! Book worship
seems to create more thoughtlessness than TV.
> It is a major tool to build a consumer society(repetition)And books are great for spreading propaganda.
Fears sure do like to be fed!
> and while there are bits of good, documentaries etc, I don´t thinkEnough for what?
> it is enough.
Unschooling isn't about what parents like. It's about helping kids
explore what *they* like. On this list parents can find a lot of help
letting go of their biases so they can either get out of the way or
embrace something their kids enjoy to help their kids explore.
> I know, I am a product of the 70ś TV gen but I hate that IWhy do you hate that? It's cute. It's part of why you remember it.
> still have in my head ¨Plop, Plop, Fizz,Fizz....¨
> and I want to remember the last books I read!
Another part is that it was repeated often.
As Sandra says, try not to hate. You can have that jingle in your head
with pleasant feelings or with negative feelings. You get to choose.
When kids enjoy something, they read it or watch it again. If you want
to remember the book you read, read it again. And again. Get it on
audio to engage another sense. If it's also a movie, watch the movie
version to add another sense in.
> My kids are amazed that the day is gone when movies are on, almostCan you clarify? I have no idea what that means.
> sad.
> But the draw to the screen is strong.Story telling is engaging. Information that intrigues us is engaging.
The stories and information happen to be available on screens.
> Like Timothy Leary said ¨Control your eyes, control your reality.¨I suspect Timothy Leary lost more brain cells to drugs than anyone has
to TV!
He also popularized "Turn on, tune in, drop out." He was a big
advocate of LSD as a beneficial drug.
Joyce
buttsbees
I have six kids, we have educated at home since birth.They are 4-15 yrs.. Un schooling is in the process more now that ever before. At points thru the years we have read and used some points for un schooling.
Thanks for the thoughts.
We have been farmer/country people ,complete with animals , until the last year when we have moved to a small city. This is why the ¨day gone¨
comment. For us things happened during the daylight. Now, not always.The day light is time in our garden, canoeing and our bees.
No , I read everything then think for myself. I do feel that ,like Homer Simpson, somethings are pushed out of my full head. When I read here I think"I knew that"
When they watch, a show , they sometimes do not eat,do not see things around them. When they are reading they do these things. When they listen to stories or music they also can do these things.
I agree not all documentaries are interesting . The type or method of engaging the watcher is different, so it is suggested.
I am going to stop here because as you said
¨Choose joy. Choose happiness. Choose to be with your children, and to see with your children.¨
I do and I will. Dr. Who is on the menu today.
Thanks for the thoughts.
We have been farmer/country people ,complete with animals , until the last year when we have moved to a small city. This is why the ¨day gone¨
comment. For us things happened during the daylight. Now, not always.The day light is time in our garden, canoeing and our bees.
No , I read everything then think for myself. I do feel that ,like Homer Simpson, somethings are pushed out of my full head. When I read here I think"I knew that"
When they watch, a show , they sometimes do not eat,do not see things around them. When they are reading they do these things. When they listen to stories or music they also can do these things.
I agree not all documentaries are interesting . The type or method of engaging the watcher is different, so it is suggested.
I am going to stop here because as you said
¨Choose joy. Choose happiness. Choose to be with your children, and to see with your children.¨
I do and I will. Dr. Who is on the menu today.
Sandra Dodd
> Like Timothy Leary said ¨Control your eyes, control your reality.¨-=-I suspect Timothy Leary lost more brain cells to drugs than anyone has
to TV!
-=-He also popularized "Turn on, tune in, drop out." He was a big
advocate of LSD as a beneficial drug.-=-
Good point.
But to the original poster, in what context was that Timothy Leary quote? Was he talking about TV? Wouldn't closing your eyes control your reality, then, too?
There's a zen story about a master who's sitting in a house near the ocean, and they're looking out the window. The teacher says "Make that boat disappear." The student thinks a bit, and then reaches over and slides the screen to cover the window. The teacher says, "Ah, but you had to use your hand," and closed his eyes.
The boat didn't really disappear, though. :-)
If the discussion at Always Learning is too irritating and someone wants to make it disappear, they can click the little box in the upper corner that will make this writing "disappear," or they can leave the list, or look away or close their eyes. But we'll still be discussing what we have observed in our own families, and it won't match much of the "research" done by education-degree candidates to support school.
If one's goal is to make school the most interesting thing on a child's horizon, then by all means--turn off the TV, don't give them any great picture books, avoid popular music, and close all the windows. If one's goal is to make learning a constant condition of a child's life, then turn ON the TV, give them all the books and magazines and music they want, open the windows, explore! Explore when you're out of the house, and explore when you're in the house.
So what was Timothy Leary on about then, with "control your eyes"?
He wasn't a very nice man, by the way. If he was an unschooling dad who had been a responsible, good father, I'd be more inclined to want to know what he thought about how to create an environment in which children could learn in peace and joy.
Sandra
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Sandra Dodd
-=-When they watch, a show , they sometimes do not eat,do not see things around them. When they are reading they do these things. When they listen to stories or music they also can do these things. -=-
When they're listening to a story, if they get up and eat, that means they weren't very interested and they're hoping the storyteller will get it over with. :-)
When I'm reading an e-mail, sometimes I don't hear something someone tells me. They need to get my attention first. Sometimes I assume Holly was taking to Keith or Marty, if the e-mail is really good (like something from Joyce, or Deb Lewis, or Schuyler, or Pam Sorooshian). That doesn't mean I'm barely awake. It means I'm fully engaged.
Sometimes when one of my kids is playing a video game, he forgets to eat. Eating is pretty important. I would put food near them.
http://sandradodd.com/eating/monkeyplatter
Maybe having food near them while they're watching Dr. Who will help.
Often I can become so engrossed in doing something that I forget to eat. Yesterday I had breakfast at 2:20. I had gotten up and decided to work on the mosaic tile I'm doing in a shower, and just kept doing one more thing, one more thing, and had no idea how much time was passing. I hadn't even had tea in the morning, because I wanted to work on the tile.
I had choices. Something was more interesting to me than food, for hours.
I've done that with sewing, and yardwork, and talking to friends, and playing cards, too.
It's not good to wish for activities that are so shallow or irritating that distractions are welcome.
Sandra
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When they're listening to a story, if they get up and eat, that means they weren't very interested and they're hoping the storyteller will get it over with. :-)
When I'm reading an e-mail, sometimes I don't hear something someone tells me. They need to get my attention first. Sometimes I assume Holly was taking to Keith or Marty, if the e-mail is really good (like something from Joyce, or Deb Lewis, or Schuyler, or Pam Sorooshian). That doesn't mean I'm barely awake. It means I'm fully engaged.
Sometimes when one of my kids is playing a video game, he forgets to eat. Eating is pretty important. I would put food near them.
http://sandradodd.com/eating/monkeyplatter
Maybe having food near them while they're watching Dr. Who will help.
Often I can become so engrossed in doing something that I forget to eat. Yesterday I had breakfast at 2:20. I had gotten up and decided to work on the mosaic tile I'm doing in a shower, and just kept doing one more thing, one more thing, and had no idea how much time was passing. I hadn't even had tea in the morning, because I wanted to work on the tile.
I had choices. Something was more interesting to me than food, for hours.
I've done that with sewing, and yardwork, and talking to friends, and playing cards, too.
It's not good to wish for activities that are so shallow or irritating that distractions are welcome.
Sandra
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Jenny Cyphers
***Like Timothy Leary said ¨Control your eyes, control your reality.¨***
I wonder what context this was said it? It's kind of a silly quote. My reality
is made up of so much more than just my eyes. Right now, I'm smelling food
cooking and feeling warm sunshine and talking with people. My reality at this
moment encompasses all of my senses.
***My kids are amazed that the day is gone when movies are on, almost sad. But
the draw to the screen is strong.***
This is not my reality at all. The days that go by in which my kids watch
movies all day are rare, but never sad. They are usually down days that involve
more snuggling. The draw of the "screen" isn't strong, it's there, just like
all the other options. Going and doing stuff is almost always preferable to
watching TV.
Last night, several of our house members watched TV together and we laughed and
laughed and had a marvelous time, while snuggled up all in our places of sleep.
It was calm and peaceful and pleasant. We watched several hours of TV and then
turned it off when nobody could keep their eyes open. There was zero sadness
involved. The draw was to fall asleep and be entertained while in that process.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I wonder what context this was said it? It's kind of a silly quote. My reality
is made up of so much more than just my eyes. Right now, I'm smelling food
cooking and feeling warm sunshine and talking with people. My reality at this
moment encompasses all of my senses.
***My kids are amazed that the day is gone when movies are on, almost sad. But
the draw to the screen is strong.***
This is not my reality at all. The days that go by in which my kids watch
movies all day are rare, but never sad. They are usually down days that involve
more snuggling. The draw of the "screen" isn't strong, it's there, just like
all the other options. Going and doing stuff is almost always preferable to
watching TV.
Last night, several of our house members watched TV together and we laughed and
laughed and had a marvelous time, while snuggled up all in our places of sleep.
It was calm and peaceful and pleasant. We watched several hours of TV and then
turned it off when nobody could keep their eyes open. There was zero sadness
involved. The draw was to fall asleep and be entertained while in that process.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
buttsbees
The quote was about TV and visual media. While you may be watching Gilligan the commercials in-between are influential. The perceived ´reality´ in programs can shade how we view our reality. You see things that you may not realize.
The kids were sad the day(light) hours had past. This was their option and they realized only later that it was maybe not the choice they really wanted. Hindsight. Life.
We watch movies,plays and shows ,Bewitched to Dirt!,but our life has always been more about being the explorers than watching the explorers.Now we are trying more yes, more choices and so the options .
I think that it (TV)is a tool that like a knife , must be used carefully.
Leary not so nice.
If I had to like everyone that I have learned from,or read I probably would have a very short list.
I guess my original intentions of discussion of dangers, how it may rot the brain, were missed,thanks for the check. I will be more careful.
The kids were sad the day(light) hours had past. This was their option and they realized only later that it was maybe not the choice they really wanted. Hindsight. Life.
We watch movies,plays and shows ,Bewitched to Dirt!,but our life has always been more about being the explorers than watching the explorers.Now we are trying more yes, more choices and so the options .
I think that it (TV)is a tool that like a knife , must be used carefully.
Leary not so nice.
If I had to like everyone that I have learned from,or read I probably would have a very short list.
I guess my original intentions of discussion of dangers, how it may rot the brain, were missed,thanks for the check. I will be more careful.
Robin Bentley
> My kids are amazed that the day is gone when movies are on, almostAre your kids sad because you told them other things were more
> sad. But the draw to the screen is strong.
important than movies and that they missed those other things by
watching?
Joyce gave you a couple of links to her excellent unschooling pages
about TV. Here's another from Sandra's site with many stories and
studies to read:
http://sandradodd.com/tv
TV (movies, series, cartoons) are part of our days full of learning.
My daughter's passions (playing Pokemon DS games, cosplaying as
Pokemon characters, sculpting characters in clay, drawing characters
on paper and on the computer) come originally from the Pokemon 2000
movie. If I'd shamed her for wanting to see it or tried to get her to
do something else instead of watching it, she wouldn't be as happy as
she is now: reveling in her connections with other Pokemon fans,
honing her drawing skills, working through difficulties in games,
learning Japanese, being a part of a community of artists online.
I didn't particularly intend for those things to happen. But her world
was big. It wasn't restrictive. She knows I support her interests.
That's huge.
> Like Timothy Leary said ¨Control your eyes, control your reality.¨I'm not fond of quotations or messages about control. They're often
used to control *other* people, not oneself ie. "Timothy Leary says
control is good, so I'll control my kids' eyes." Frankly, I wouldn't
follow much of Leary's advice. He wasn't a happy guy and his family
wasn't especially happy either.
>One can pretty much find links to support any negative stance about
> The links are just some of what is out there.
anything! It's a mindset.
Read Sandra's and Joyce's links about positive outcomes from TV
watching. And remember that what unschoolers really talk about is not
the TV or the computer or books or gardens, specifically. We talk
about attitude toward learning and relationships. That's what's
important.
Robin B.
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
"""The kids were sad the day(light) hours had past. This was their option and they realized only later that it was maybe not the choice they really wanted. Hindsight. Life."""
Are you saying your kids did not have a choice to stop watching the movie/show/TV?
My kids have a choice. Because their TV is unlimited and they even have a DVR that records their favorite shows they do not feel they "have to"sit and watch something.
They can watch later. at night , whenever. We too live in a farm and my kids love to go help dad. They can turn the TV off anytime and do. They can leave a favorite show to go with dad feed the calves and they know they can watch it another time. I have to say that of all the recorded shows they have on their DVR they maybe watch 20% if that much.
If your kids chose to wathc something and they feel bad about it that sounds that it can be more damaging than just enjoying their choice. If the choice was made base on feeling lack of option than they should have more options about TV not less.
""We watch movies,plays and shows ,Bewitched to Dirt!,but our life has always been more about being the explorers than watching the explorers.Now we are trying more yes, more choices and so the options ."""
More options is good. A feeling of abundance is better than a feeling of lack of.
""I think that it (TV)is a tool that like a knife , must be used carefully.""
Or what? It rotts your brain??
I have to then say my brain is complete mush. I loved TV all my life and watch a lot. But not a lot really. I love books too and I usually rather read a good book but sometimes I want to see shows. They are all good.
""""I guess my original intentions of discussion of dangers, how it may rot the brain, were missed,thanks for the check. I will be more careful."""
No they were not. People here have read all those kind of ideas about TV roting people's brains. People here have gone further and they have observed and evaluated and the conclusion many came up (cannot say everyone or most) is that TV does not rot a brain or my family is a buch of zombies in front of the screen with shrinked brains!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-While you may be watching Gilligan the commercials in-between are influential. The perceived ´reality´ in programs can shade how we view our reality. You see things that you may not realize.-=-
You live in a scarier world than I do.
http://sandradodd.com/gilligan
I offer that link for the benefit of others reading, as it seems you're not reading any of the links people have brought you.
-=-We watch movies,plays and shows ,Bewitched to Dirt!,but our life has always been more about being the explorers than watching the explorers-=-
Ah. Slogans. I suppose you have said that to your children, things about being the explorers rather than watching the explorers. It's belittling of others, and shaming of your kids, to some extent. It's like an advertising slogan, isn't it? A message designed to manipulate others?
-=-I think that it (TV)is a tool that like a knife , must be used carefully.-=-
I think you've invested so much energy and time in villifying TV that you can only compare it to weapons.
We could all talk about how TV is like a flower, or a pillow, or a puzzle. But for you, it's a tool, a knife, a danger. That is worse than the TV itself.
-=-Leary not so nice.
If I had to like everyone that I have learned from,or read I probably would have a very short list.-=-
The people you decide to quote on this list should be people who know more about parenting than you do, though. Timothy Leary's opinion of parenting isn't worth squat. So where's the quote from? Please give more specifics.
-=-I guess my original intentions of discussion of dangers, how it may rot the brain, were missed-=-
Do you think people didn't understand you?
Did you think there might be a single person here out of many hundreds who had never heard anti-TV arguments?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
You live in a scarier world than I do.
http://sandradodd.com/gilligan
I offer that link for the benefit of others reading, as it seems you're not reading any of the links people have brought you.
-=-We watch movies,plays and shows ,Bewitched to Dirt!,but our life has always been more about being the explorers than watching the explorers-=-
Ah. Slogans. I suppose you have said that to your children, things about being the explorers rather than watching the explorers. It's belittling of others, and shaming of your kids, to some extent. It's like an advertising slogan, isn't it? A message designed to manipulate others?
-=-I think that it (TV)is a tool that like a knife , must be used carefully.-=-
I think you've invested so much energy and time in villifying TV that you can only compare it to weapons.
We could all talk about how TV is like a flower, or a pillow, or a puzzle. But for you, it's a tool, a knife, a danger. That is worse than the TV itself.
-=-Leary not so nice.
If I had to like everyone that I have learned from,or read I probably would have a very short list.-=-
The people you decide to quote on this list should be people who know more about parenting than you do, though. Timothy Leary's opinion of parenting isn't worth squat. So where's the quote from? Please give more specifics.
-=-I guess my original intentions of discussion of dangers, how it may rot the brain, were missed-=-
Do you think people didn't understand you?
Did you think there might be a single person here out of many hundreds who had never heard anti-TV arguments?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
***The quote was about TV and visual media. While you may be watching Gilligan
the commercials in-between are influential. The perceived ´reality´ in programs
can shade how we view our reality. You see things that you may not realize.***
Okay... reality is reality is reality... we could go into a long philosophical
discussion on what exactly reality is. I don't buy into perceived reality vs
real reality. There is only reality.
I'm sure that while driving down the freeway, my subconscious mind picks up
images that I'm not immediately aware of. I might even miss signs here or there
and later recall that such and such is along such and such freeway. Why is this
a problem?
***I think that it (TV)is a tool that like a knife , must be used carefully.***
A knife is a tool that can cut a person and land them in the emergency room if
that person slips or isn't paying attention. TV has never landed a person in
the ER that I know of. I've heard people call TV a tool and if that's the case
then it's application is for learning, entertainment, and relaxation, NOT for
cutting things.
***I guess my original intentions of discussion of dangers, how it may rot the
brain, were missed,thanks for the check.***
Since there has been about 20 or more responses, I'm going out on a limb here
and saying that it wasn't missed, but merely disagreed with in the form of a
discussion.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
the commercials in-between are influential. The perceived ´reality´ in programs
can shade how we view our reality. You see things that you may not realize.***
Okay... reality is reality is reality... we could go into a long philosophical
discussion on what exactly reality is. I don't buy into perceived reality vs
real reality. There is only reality.
I'm sure that while driving down the freeway, my subconscious mind picks up
images that I'm not immediately aware of. I might even miss signs here or there
and later recall that such and such is along such and such freeway. Why is this
a problem?
***I think that it (TV)is a tool that like a knife , must be used carefully.***
A knife is a tool that can cut a person and land them in the emergency room if
that person slips or isn't paying attention. TV has never landed a person in
the ER that I know of. I've heard people call TV a tool and if that's the case
then it's application is for learning, entertainment, and relaxation, NOT for
cutting things.
***I guess my original intentions of discussion of dangers, how it may rot the
brain, were missed,thanks for the check.***
Since there has been about 20 or more responses, I'm going out on a limb here
and saying that it wasn't missed, but merely disagreed with in the form of a
discussion.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
plaidpanties666
"buttsbees" <buttsbees@...> wrote:
Really think about that for a minute. How does the brain know the difference between a documentary and a sitcom? Does it really make sense that falling asleep watching a documentary is more engaging than laughing at the jokes in a sitcom or marvelling at the literary and cultural references in a cartoon? Not that all documentaries are dull enough to sleep through - but those that Aren't pull elements of structure and presentation from other kinds of television and movies.
I'm sure someone could design an experiment that would prove that tv is stultifying. It wouldn't be hard to select tired old reruns or low-grade educational programming and tape electrodes to the heads of college students only interested in the $25 they'd get for sitting through the experiement, daydreaming. Given the same setup, you could prove that all great literature causes the brain to go into sleep mode.
If you've only ever watched movies or shows to relax, I bet that data would seem convincing, but people watch tv for reasons other than that. People regularly use television programs - fictional programs - for informational purposes. It's not *just* that they're remembering the programs wholesale, people pull out facts and information (real or not) that interest them. That's learning. People do the same thing when they read books or websites or newspapers. Learning is not less-than if you disapprove of the medium.
If you went to school or were homeschooled, you were told many times that reading books is important. You've been told that reading books is better, more significant than watching tv. You've been told, over and over until you believed it, that reading books stimulates the imagination. Those messages lurk in the back of your mind - part of the "school in your head". It's valuable to question those messages even if you adore books because your children aren't you. They may find other formats, other media, work better for them as tools to explore the world.
---Meredith
>****************
> I do not have a TV. But a computer,which at this point is similar. I have read that the brain is almost sleeping when watching TV but just awake enough to allow you to remember. If you were to watch a documentary it is engaged.
Really think about that for a minute. How does the brain know the difference between a documentary and a sitcom? Does it really make sense that falling asleep watching a documentary is more engaging than laughing at the jokes in a sitcom or marvelling at the literary and cultural references in a cartoon? Not that all documentaries are dull enough to sleep through - but those that Aren't pull elements of structure and presentation from other kinds of television and movies.
I'm sure someone could design an experiment that would prove that tv is stultifying. It wouldn't be hard to select tired old reruns or low-grade educational programming and tape electrodes to the heads of college students only interested in the $25 they'd get for sitting through the experiement, daydreaming. Given the same setup, you could prove that all great literature causes the brain to go into sleep mode.
If you've only ever watched movies or shows to relax, I bet that data would seem convincing, but people watch tv for reasons other than that. People regularly use television programs - fictional programs - for informational purposes. It's not *just* that they're remembering the programs wholesale, people pull out facts and information (real or not) that interest them. That's learning. People do the same thing when they read books or websites or newspapers. Learning is not less-than if you disapprove of the medium.
> and I want to remember the last books I read!Have you tried audio books? Watching a dramatization of the book? If you remember song lyrics better than print, why confine yourself to print? Why put up a wall between yourself and the way you learn best?
If you went to school or were homeschooled, you were told many times that reading books is important. You've been told that reading books is better, more significant than watching tv. You've been told, over and over until you believed it, that reading books stimulates the imagination. Those messages lurk in the back of your mind - part of the "school in your head". It's valuable to question those messages even if you adore books because your children aren't you. They may find other formats, other media, work better for them as tools to explore the world.
---Meredith
Sarah
JS Mill (philosopher in 17mumblemumble (I think) arguing against rules and for maximising happiness when choosing, put very briefly!) said 'pushpin is as good as poetry' if it produces equivilent pleasure. It makes me smile to think how pleased most of the anti-TV writers would be to see kids playing a nice traditional wood-carved game! Every age has its demons.
--- In AlwaysLearning@..., Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...> wrote:
>
>
> On May 3, 2011, at 9:24 AM, buttsbees wrote:
>
> > TV rots the senses in the head!
>
> The concept of new fangled things rotting the brain has been around
> for a long time. I recall that one of the great ancient philosophers
> disdained books because then people wouldn't need to memorize
plaidpanties666
Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
It helps to notice when shows change (or commercials if you're watching broadcast) and use those moments to get snacks. We watch Dr Who on netflix as a family and use the transition from one episode to another to get up and move a bit, go pee, get food. If you're watching Dr. Who, that's a good show to ask yourself if it really makes sense for the brain to go into some kind of sleep or zombie mode.
I'll remind Mo to eat and pee when screens are loading, playing a video game. I bring her food, but if the game is intense it helps if I remind her to eat - its hard to eat and play a game at the same time.
Sometimes parents who have issues with tv will make themselves scarce when the kids want to watch - that's something to watch out for. Don't "just" leave the kids with the tv, spend some time watching with them, seeing what lights them up. It gives you another chance to spend time with them, to connect with them over their interests and joys, and that's infinitely valuable.
---Meredith
>> Maybe having food near them while they're watching Dr. Who will help.****************
It helps to notice when shows change (or commercials if you're watching broadcast) and use those moments to get snacks. We watch Dr Who on netflix as a family and use the transition from one episode to another to get up and move a bit, go pee, get food. If you're watching Dr. Who, that's a good show to ask yourself if it really makes sense for the brain to go into some kind of sleep or zombie mode.
I'll remind Mo to eat and pee when screens are loading, playing a video game. I bring her food, but if the game is intense it helps if I remind her to eat - its hard to eat and play a game at the same time.
Sometimes parents who have issues with tv will make themselves scarce when the kids want to watch - that's something to watch out for. Don't "just" leave the kids with the tv, spend some time watching with them, seeing what lights them up. It gives you another chance to spend time with them, to connect with them over their interests and joys, and that's infinitely valuable.
---Meredith
Joyce Fetteroll
On May 3, 2011, at 3:10 PM, buttsbees wrote:
But influential how?
I'm guessing you mean commercials will make people want what they see?
Commercials are a source of information. They let people know what's
out there. They can suggest the product is really great. But once it's
in the home, people make a decision whether to buy it again.
Kids are the same. If they're given the opportunity to make decisions,
try things out, decide from there, they learn more about themselves
and about the world.
If Mom tells them the commercials are powerful and they need to
beware, or worse, tells them they aren't capable of deciding from what
they try and Mom needs to do it for them, they can become less sure of
themselves.
My daughter has seen 1000s of commercials. She's rarely wanted
anything she's seen on TV. Other kids are different. But what
unschoolers actually experience is that when the kids are trusted to
be competent and have the opportunity to try things out, they learn
discrimination. They learn from experience, by drawing their own
conclusions, that what they see on commercials is to be treated with
skepticism. (They'll learn this from what Mom buys too.)
It doesn't take a genius to figure out that companies are trying to
figure out ways to convince you their product is worth your money!
Kids *want* to be competent in the world. They want to be smarter than
companies. They're driven to figure out how to get what they want from
life.
What people read, what we hear from others, what we see in real life
and on TV, what we figure out, adds to our vision of how the world
works. That's how we learn. It will help you see more clearly if you
don't put TV in a special category and don't call it shading.
Everything contributes to how we believe the world works.
Not everything we read, hear, see will be true. Not even in reality!
But we're constantly checking and testing what we know against
anything new that comes in.
I recently watched an old movie with Carl and Kathryn: The Vikings
with Kirk Douglas. I would say most of my knowledge of early western
European history comes from movies and novels (many of which were
bodice busters!). But it was surprisingly easy to pick up on what felt
off for the time period. When I read through the trivia and so forth
at IMDb and articles on Wikipedia, I had pretty much spotted what was
accurate and what wasn't. I had *even* been able to pick out that the
supposedly Saxon castle they went to was French. (Though I was wrong
about how old the castle was.) (They had actually done a lot of
research on the Viking part of the story, more than usual for late 50s
movies (when spectacle was more important than truth).)
How is that possible? How could I have absorbed so much that's wrong
and yet built up a fairly accurate picture? How could I have done it
from TV when I was supposedly barely awake? Thought! Questioning! Yes,
from what I was picking up from TV. :-) That's because when creators
of fiction use what's accurate, it matches something else you've
picked up and reinforces it as being more and more and more likely
true. When creators make stuff up, it doesn't match so you're more
likely to question it.
*That's* how we naturally learn. We don't need to be fed the right
information. We turn over what comes in and think about it, create
theories, test it against what else we know and against reality, and
let it sit sometimes and when something stirs it up again, think about
it some more to see how it meshes with what else we know.
kids? Is it a problem? Is it a big problem? How specifically? How is
what they take in from TV without paying attention different from what
they take in from other areas of their lives without paying attention?
These statements sound true and scary and that's why people repeat
them. But what's the reality with your kids when they have choice and
support in meeting their needs? What actually happens? And is it
really a problem?
And may be disappointed again. It's how humans figure out themselves
and the world. And especially with kids, their needs and limits are
changing day by day. Something they liked last week they may not like
this week. Something they couldn't do last month, maybe they can do
fine now. They need to keep testing to find out who they are :-)
like! -- it's natural that they'd want to explore it a huge amount.
It's different nearly every day! Help them find ways to do what they
want. Don't assume! Don't assume they want to not watch TV during the
day even if they complain when night comes. Dig a bit to get more
specific answers about what they like and don't like. Find out what
they want, and help them figure out how to make it happen.
mostly during the preteen years -- and never cut herself! Nor did she
turn into a consumer junkie. Nor did she arrive at 19 with a warped
view of the world that doesn't match reality.
There's lots of scary words out there about TV, but what's the reality
with unschooled kids?
explained what it meant. It was the words of an authority (on LSD ;-)
used to shore up what you believe. But how does it match what you
observe in your unschooling kids?
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> The quote was about TV and visual media. While you may be watchingEverything in life can be learned from, commercials included.
> Gilligan the commercials in-between are influential.
But influential how?
I'm guessing you mean commercials will make people want what they see?
Commercials are a source of information. They let people know what's
out there. They can suggest the product is really great. But once it's
in the home, people make a decision whether to buy it again.
Kids are the same. If they're given the opportunity to make decisions,
try things out, decide from there, they learn more about themselves
and about the world.
If Mom tells them the commercials are powerful and they need to
beware, or worse, tells them they aren't capable of deciding from what
they try and Mom needs to do it for them, they can become less sure of
themselves.
My daughter has seen 1000s of commercials. She's rarely wanted
anything she's seen on TV. Other kids are different. But what
unschoolers actually experience is that when the kids are trusted to
be competent and have the opportunity to try things out, they learn
discrimination. They learn from experience, by drawing their own
conclusions, that what they see on commercials is to be treated with
skepticism. (They'll learn this from what Mom buys too.)
It doesn't take a genius to figure out that companies are trying to
figure out ways to convince you their product is worth your money!
Kids *want* to be competent in the world. They want to be smarter than
companies. They're driven to figure out how to get what they want from
life.
> The perceived ´reality´ in programs can shade how we view our reality.This sounds like you're repeating what you've read and heard others say.
What people read, what we hear from others, what we see in real life
and on TV, what we figure out, adds to our vision of how the world
works. That's how we learn. It will help you see more clearly if you
don't put TV in a special category and don't call it shading.
Everything contributes to how we believe the world works.
Not everything we read, hear, see will be true. Not even in reality!
But we're constantly checking and testing what we know against
anything new that comes in.
I recently watched an old movie with Carl and Kathryn: The Vikings
with Kirk Douglas. I would say most of my knowledge of early western
European history comes from movies and novels (many of which were
bodice busters!). But it was surprisingly easy to pick up on what felt
off for the time period. When I read through the trivia and so forth
at IMDb and articles on Wikipedia, I had pretty much spotted what was
accurate and what wasn't. I had *even* been able to pick out that the
supposedly Saxon castle they went to was French. (Though I was wrong
about how old the castle was.) (They had actually done a lot of
research on the Viking part of the story, more than usual for late 50s
movies (when spectacle was more important than truth).)
How is that possible? How could I have absorbed so much that's wrong
and yet built up a fairly accurate picture? How could I have done it
from TV when I was supposedly barely awake? Thought! Questioning! Yes,
from what I was picking up from TV. :-) That's because when creators
of fiction use what's accurate, it matches something else you've
picked up and reinforces it as being more and more and more likely
true. When creators make stuff up, it doesn't match so you're more
likely to question it.
*That's* how we naturally learn. We don't need to be fed the right
information. We turn over what comes in and think about it, create
theories, test it against what else we know and against reality, and
let it sit sometimes and when something stirs it up again, think about
it some more to see how it meshes with what else we know.
> You see things that you may not realize.Like what specifically? What have you actually observed in your own
kids? Is it a problem? Is it a big problem? How specifically? How is
what they take in from TV without paying attention different from what
they take in from other areas of their lives without paying attention?
These statements sound true and scary and that's why people repeat
them. But what's the reality with your kids when they have choice and
support in meeting their needs? What actually happens? And is it
really a problem?
> The kids were sad the day(light) hours had past. This was theirAnd they may very likely make that choice to watch TV all day again.
> option and they realized only later that it was maybe not the choice
> they really wanted. Hindsight. Life.
And may be disappointed again. It's how humans figure out themselves
and the world. And especially with kids, their needs and limits are
changing day by day. Something they liked last week they may not like
this week. Something they couldn't do last month, maybe they can do
fine now. They need to keep testing to find out who they are :-)
> We watch movies,plays and shows ,Bewitched to Dirt!,but our life hasIf TV was more limited in the past -- and if TV is something they
> always been more about being the explorers than watching the
> explorers.Now we are trying more yes, more choices and so the
> options .
like! -- it's natural that they'd want to explore it a huge amount.
It's different nearly every day! Help them find ways to do what they
want. Don't assume! Don't assume they want to not watch TV during the
day even if they complain when night comes. Dig a bit to get more
specific answers about what they like and don't like. Find out what
they want, and help them figure out how to make it happen.
> I think that it (TV)is a tool that like a knife , must be usedLike what? Like how? My daughter managed to watch loads of TV --
> carefully.
mostly during the preteen years -- and never cut herself! Nor did she
turn into a consumer junkie. Nor did she arrive at 19 with a warped
view of the world that doesn't match reality.
There's lots of scary words out there about TV, but what's the reality
with unschooled kids?
>But what did you learn from him? You quoted him but you haven't
> Leary not so nice.
> If I had to like everyone that I have learned from,or read I
> probably would have a very short list.
explained what it meant. It was the words of an authority (on LSD ;-)
used to shore up what you believe. But how does it match what you
observe in your unschooling kids?
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On May 3, 2011, at 4:24 PM, BRIAN POLIKOWSKY wrote:
I know Kathryn felt at the mercy of the programmers of what episodes
they might put on. With the DVR she never had to worry about missing a
new episode or a favorite one. The amount of TV she watched went down
because she was more in control of what and when.
Joyce
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> they even have a DVR that records their favorite showsDVRs are *great* for unschooling.
I know Kathryn felt at the mercy of the programmers of what episodes
they might put on. With the DVR she never had to worry about missing a
new episode or a favorite one. The amount of TV she watched went down
because she was more in control of what and when.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
plaidpanties666
"buttsbees" <buttsbees@...> wrote:
Didn't you say you're watching on the computer, though? Why are commercials even an issue? They don't pertain to your family.
It doesn't help to discuss theoretical "what ifs" with unschooling because everything is situational. What are Your kids experiencing, not children-as-a-demographic but the real lives of real people.
If y'all have the chance to watch commercials, how do your kids respond? Are they curious and want to talk about what they see? Plenty to talk about with most commercials... don't make it a lecture, though, that's a good way to get them to tune you out. If they want to buy, buy something. Really, the best way to learn about truth in advertising is to explore the reality of it a little. Be kind - don't set them up to be disappointed when you can point out things like "some parts sold separately" and "does not include pony" - but let them become discriminating in the most direct way possible.
Do your kids think Daleks are real? Do they think sea sponges work in fast food restaurants? I bet their reality is pretty intact. Do you talk about shows and movies at all? I don't mean quiz them about what's real and what's imaginary, I mean talk like you would with a buddy. Connect with them and get a sense of what they know and think, what they wish and imagine. That will go further toward calming your fears about their brains than advice from strangers over a screen ;)
---Meredith
>**************
> The quote was about TV and visual media. While you may be watching Gilligan the commercials in-between are influential.
Didn't you say you're watching on the computer, though? Why are commercials even an issue? They don't pertain to your family.
It doesn't help to discuss theoretical "what ifs" with unschooling because everything is situational. What are Your kids experiencing, not children-as-a-demographic but the real lives of real people.
If y'all have the chance to watch commercials, how do your kids respond? Are they curious and want to talk about what they see? Plenty to talk about with most commercials... don't make it a lecture, though, that's a good way to get them to tune you out. If they want to buy, buy something. Really, the best way to learn about truth in advertising is to explore the reality of it a little. Be kind - don't set them up to be disappointed when you can point out things like "some parts sold separately" and "does not include pony" - but let them become discriminating in the most direct way possible.
>>The perceived ´reality´ in programs can shade how we view our reality. You see things that you may not realize.*******************
Do your kids think Daleks are real? Do they think sea sponges work in fast food restaurants? I bet their reality is pretty intact. Do you talk about shows and movies at all? I don't mean quiz them about what's real and what's imaginary, I mean talk like you would with a buddy. Connect with them and get a sense of what they know and think, what they wish and imagine. That will go further toward calming your fears about their brains than advice from strangers over a screen ;)
---Meredith
Joyce Fetteroll
On May 3, 2011, at 5:27 PM, plaidpanties666 wrote:
There are also commercial breaks on TV shows on Hulu. Very short
breaks, often 30 seconds. They're too short to get up and do something
and you can't fast forward! ;-)
(I'm not grousing. Commercials are what makes it all free! Though
commercials at the beginning of music videos seem a bit overkill since
the videos themselves are like ads for the groups.)
Joyce
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> Didn't you say you're watching on the computer, though? Why areThere are commercials at the beginning of many YouTube videos.
> commercials even an issue?
There are also commercial breaks on TV shows on Hulu. Very short
breaks, often 30 seconds. They're too short to get up and do something
and you can't fast forward! ;-)
(I'm not grousing. Commercials are what makes it all free! Though
commercials at the beginning of music videos seem a bit overkill since
the videos themselves are like ads for the groups.)
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
I have this by e-mail with a request to post it without the name. There's a note from me below.
****our life has always been more about being the explorers than watching the explorers****
When I was growing up, I always preferred reading about the explorers over being one of the explorers. I missed many a meal, bedtime, sunny day, or outing � lost in a book. I read at home � at the beach � in the woods in a tree � most everywhere I went, I read.
When I was 13, my stepfather decided that he was tired of watching me waste my life away (his words) in front of, yep you guessed it � not a TV screen - but my books. He banned me from reading anywhere but in school. Said if he caught me reading, there�d be serious consequences. Got rid of all of my books and my library card.
To him, books were keeping me from �experiencing life� and were making me dream big dreams and want big things � and to him that was bad. Books were evil things in his world � the things that were preventing me from being �well rounded� � the things that were going to keep me from having a productive life. All things he said.
When I tell people I was banned from reading, they are invariably shocked. Horrified even. But BOOKS are so wonderful, they say. Who could stop someone from reading BOOKS.
And the things is � all the arguments he made about books and how terrible they are � it�s the same thing people say about TV, computers, video games.
Books didn�t keep me from life. They were part of my life. They taught me about life. They are part of what made me who I am today.
Of course, my experience being banned from reading also is part of what made me who I am today. I would never take something away from my child that he enjoyed. I would never try to make him feel guilty for �wasting away� his days, when in fact he�s spending his days being happy and that�s all any of us I think can ask � that we get to spend the days we have alive being happy.
... if it�s appropriate to share, I would appreciate if it could be shared anonymously ...
If it�s not appropriate to share, I understand. I just thought you might enjoy hearing the perspective of someone who�s been on the other side of some of the things that are in current discussion, and in whose life it wasn�t the Screen that so many people seem to fear that was the �bad guy� � it was print, which so many people seem to revere. Two sides to every coin, indeed there are :-)
_____________________________________
end of anonymous quote, beginning of Sandra comment:
_____________________________________
My mom said to me several times in the same words "Get your nose out of that book and go outside and play." It wasn't said in a kind or loving way. It was clearly conveying that books were stupid, and I was stupid, and she didn't want me to be in the house when she could have the house to herself. I bet if anyone had questioned her about it, though, she would have found some motherly justification about the health benefits of play and sunshine. She never mentioned that in way of explanation to me, though. Sometimes it was behind my back, but loud enough for me to hear, "Sandra's in there with her nose in a book" (witheringly spoken).
I liked books more than I liked my mom. I liked school more than I liked my mom. She wasn't very nice.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
****our life has always been more about being the explorers than watching the explorers****
When I was growing up, I always preferred reading about the explorers over being one of the explorers. I missed many a meal, bedtime, sunny day, or outing � lost in a book. I read at home � at the beach � in the woods in a tree � most everywhere I went, I read.
When I was 13, my stepfather decided that he was tired of watching me waste my life away (his words) in front of, yep you guessed it � not a TV screen - but my books. He banned me from reading anywhere but in school. Said if he caught me reading, there�d be serious consequences. Got rid of all of my books and my library card.
To him, books were keeping me from �experiencing life� and were making me dream big dreams and want big things � and to him that was bad. Books were evil things in his world � the things that were preventing me from being �well rounded� � the things that were going to keep me from having a productive life. All things he said.
When I tell people I was banned from reading, they are invariably shocked. Horrified even. But BOOKS are so wonderful, they say. Who could stop someone from reading BOOKS.
And the things is � all the arguments he made about books and how terrible they are � it�s the same thing people say about TV, computers, video games.
Books didn�t keep me from life. They were part of my life. They taught me about life. They are part of what made me who I am today.
Of course, my experience being banned from reading also is part of what made me who I am today. I would never take something away from my child that he enjoyed. I would never try to make him feel guilty for �wasting away� his days, when in fact he�s spending his days being happy and that�s all any of us I think can ask � that we get to spend the days we have alive being happy.
... if it�s appropriate to share, I would appreciate if it could be shared anonymously ...
If it�s not appropriate to share, I understand. I just thought you might enjoy hearing the perspective of someone who�s been on the other side of some of the things that are in current discussion, and in whose life it wasn�t the Screen that so many people seem to fear that was the �bad guy� � it was print, which so many people seem to revere. Two sides to every coin, indeed there are :-)
_____________________________________
end of anonymous quote, beginning of Sandra comment:
_____________________________________
My mom said to me several times in the same words "Get your nose out of that book and go outside and play." It wasn't said in a kind or loving way. It was clearly conveying that books were stupid, and I was stupid, and she didn't want me to be in the house when she could have the house to herself. I bet if anyone had questioned her about it, though, she would have found some motherly justification about the health benefits of play and sunshine. She never mentioned that in way of explanation to me, though. Sometimes it was behind my back, but loud enough for me to hear, "Sandra's in there with her nose in a book" (witheringly spoken).
I liked books more than I liked my mom. I liked school more than I liked my mom. She wasn't very nice.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-There are also commercial breaks on TV shows on Hulu. Very short
breaks, often 30 seconds. They're too short to get up and do something
and you can't fast forward! ;-)-=-
You can mute!
But yes, if it weren't for commercials, broadcast TV wouldn't be free. (The justification for commercials on cable TV is another matter; at first, in the 1970's, people were told paying for cable would cut down on commercials.)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
breaks, often 30 seconds. They're too short to get up and do something
and you can't fast forward! ;-)-=-
You can mute!
But yes, if it weren't for commercials, broadcast TV wouldn't be free. (The justification for commercials on cable TV is another matter; at first, in the 1970's, people were told paying for cable would cut down on commercials.)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]