Tamara Shand

***But if she has cried more than once, I think you should have done something
directly. It can be friendly and nice, but should be firm. If he were hitting
her or sexually molesting her, you wouldn't just let her cry and suggest maybe
she could deal with it on her own. If he's repeatedly insulting her and you,
that's not really okay, is it?***

My 3 1/2 year old daughter and I recently got back from a week long visit with old friends who have a 6 year old (schooled) girl.

Overall the two girls loved having a playmate to run around with, observe and cuddle. However, there were several situations in which the six year old, Mila, seemed to be purposefully trying to upset my 3 year old, Ella. I am reflecting on the week to think up some better choices for handling this kind of situation should it come up again. I would also appreciate another point of view to sense-check my own reaction.

For one week I was in Mila's home but she was in my care - at least between school and when her parents returned from work. The woman who looks after Mila was either out of sight or busy cleaning.

The situation was that when Mila was interested in Ella's things she would grab, withhold or run away with them. Then she might place the item out of reach when it was clear that Ella was getting upset and wanted her things back. I think Ella was primarily upset at the grabbing because when encouraged to share and show Mila her toys Ella did so happily. When Mila took away and placed Ella's toys out of reach as Ella ran after her I would retrieve the item and give it back to Ella without comment. Basically I tried to support and protect Ella without putting Mila on the spot.

I now think Mila was goading Ella to see what happens when Ella gets angry or upset. I think Mila's motivation was scientific enquiry rather than malice. I gather that her parents handle angry or frustrated feelings differently so perhaps it was surprising for Mila to see me accept Ella telling me to 'go away' when Ella wanted to collect herself or to see me simply tell Ella not to hit me (on the few occasions she was that frustrated) rather than to lecture her on the badness of hitting.

By the time the week was finished I think Mila was very confused. I wonder if I could have done more to support her. She made a comment when she was climbing that I might not care if she climbed too high because I wasn't her daughter to which I responded that I would still care. Yet, it was revealing. She seemed to feel that I was treating her and Ella with different standards. In some ways I was - I didn't ask Mila to share or stop grabbing but I asked Ella to share and stop grabbing. I also didn't ask Ella to finish everything on her plate while Mila's caregiver (who was around for mealtimes) did.

I asked myself whether it is possible to be friends with someone who repeatedly insults or puts down in words or behaviour. By the end of the week Mila had moved on to insulting Ella telling her her drawing was yucky and blaming her for letting her markers run dry when none of the markers had caps to begin with. At times I felt I might be setting Ella up to accept poor treatment. But, I think I met Ella's needs to express her frustration or to have whatever item returned. Ella was able to move quickly from frustration to playfulness and seemed to take the good and shrug off the bad. There were lots of hugs, giggles, and playing for both girls.

Some of the incidents happened in the presence of Mila's parents. On one occasion Mila's mother told her to give Ella back the item in dispute. On another occasion in the presence of Mila's parent's, Ella hit Mila when Mila grabbed her mini princess dolls. It wasn't very hard and it was on her hands. Ella was basically trying to wrestle the princess dolls back. I stepped in, told Ella I wouldn't allow her to hurt Mila and directed Ella to hit a pillow. I had a short chat with Ella about how Mila was sharing her home and she just wanted to see the dolls (even though she had just grabbed and withheld them) and I asked Ella to share the dolls which she did very nicely once she had calmed down. I don't think she minded sharing them as she really idolised Mila but the grabbing rubbed her up the wrong way.

In retrospect, I think it was Mila who needed more support. I'm not sure to what extent I could have supported Mila except to help make her life sparkly and fun during my limited influence in it. I organised activities like bubbles and water balloons for after school. We played lots of games - directed by Mila - in Mila's swimming pool. I took them out for a walk with the dog. I took them - on the last day - to the park for bouncy castles.

I didn't mention any other incidents to Mila's parents because I didn't want to get Mila in trouble. Maybe I should have spoken to her parents about the grabbing. At the time I was also confused about Mila's motives.

I'm not sure what else I could have done to smooth things over.

With thanks in advance for any insight you might share.

Tamara



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Sandra Dodd

I think an important aspect of questions about 3 and 6 year olds who are only in occasional contact is that the next time they might be 4 and 7, or 5 and 8, and all aspects will likely change. :-)

It sounds like you were really thoughtful, though, and maybe the other little girl will think about those things too, depending on her interests and the amount of "interpersonal intelligence" she has. Some kids are very "eh" about anything like that, and others might remember for life what they thought about a relationship when they were six. I do.

Sandra

plaidpanties666

Tamara Shand <tamara@...> wrote:
> I think Mila's motivation was scientific enquiry rather than malice.

To some extent, too, she's repeating what other, older people have done to her - take things out of her hands no matter hoooooow much she wants them, and put them someplace she can't reach. That's pretty standard parenting, after all. It's pretty normal for kids to repeat that sort of thing with younger children. In fact, its something that comes up in unschooling families where older kids weren't unschooled from the start, but the little ones are - the bigger kids will start repeating the older parenting behaviors as though they think its now their job. So it might have helped to tell the girl that she didn't need to be your daughter's mom/big sister/baby sitter, she could just be friends.

>She made a comment when she was climbing that I might not care if she climbed too high because I wasn't her daughter
****************

Again, to some extent she may have been repeating other things she's heard her parents say - I don't care what so-and-so does, you're My daughter and you'll do it My Way.

>>By the end of the week Mila had moved on to insulting Ella telling her her drawing was yucky and blaming her for letting her markers run dry
****************

Modelling is pretty creepy sometimes. I'll bet Mila's been told all those things, or heard other kids say them at school. I bet she sometimes feels like adults insult her and blame her for things, too.

Ray's more likely to pick on Mo when he's been at his bio mom's house for a few days - or especially if he's gone visiting relatives with her for a week or more. There's a lot of the dynamic of adults picking on children over there and it will take him a day or two to decompress.

> I asked myself whether it is possible to be friends with someone who repeatedly insults or puts down in words or behaviour.
*******************

A three year old might not really notice the insults. Was your daughter crying or otherwise upset? You didn't mention, and that's the important part!

If you're concerned about personal issues, then next time look into different accomodations, maybe, or plan more day trips to give the girls plenty of breaks from one another as well as planning lots of activities to do together.

Even in the best of situations, kids won't get along all the time, though, and the amount that kids quarrel can be surprising to parents of only children. You certainly do want to make sure one child isn't taking advantage of another, but don't set your expectations unrealisitically high.

---Meredith

Sandra Dodd

-=-If you're concerned about personal issues, then next time look into different accomodations, maybe, or plan more day trips to give the girls plenty of breaks from one another as well as planning lots of activities to do together. -=-

Getting both girls out together would change the dynamics too--being in neutral, stimulating territory often helps.

Sandra

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Tamara

> To some extent, too, she's repeating what other, older people have done to her - take things out of her hands no matter hoooooow much she wants them, and put them someplace she can't reach.

Yes. For me it was a shock to see modelling in action. It was like all of Mila's emotions and vulnerabilities were on display - which made it hard to be mad at her though I was getting increasingly tense at running interference. I think getting the girls out more would have helped.

>
> A three year old might not really notice the insults. Was your daughter crying or otherwise upset? You didn't mention, and that's the important part!
>

I never let it get to the point that my daughter was totally melting down but she was certainly upset at the grabbing and withholding. She asked: 'what's happening?' when MIla insulted her but you're right - she didn't get attached to it at all.

>
> Even in the best of situations, kids won't get along all the time, though, and the amount that kids quarrel can be surprising to parents of only children. You certainly do want to make sure one child isn't taking advantage of another, but don't set your expectations unrealisitically high.

Yes.

It helps to lay it all out in writing. Thank you Sandra and Meredith for helping me get some perspective on it.

Warmly,

Tamara

Rinelle

> My 3 1/2 year old daughter and I recently got back from a week long visit
> with old friends who have a 6 year old
> (schooled) girl.
>
> Overall the two girls loved having a playmate to run around with, observe
> and cuddle. However, there were several
> situations in which the six year old, Mila, seemed to be purposefully
> trying to upset my 3 year old, Ella. I am reflecting
> on the week to think up some better choices for handling this kind of
> situation should it come up again. I would also
> appreciate another point of view to sense-check my own reaction.
>
I have a 6.5yo, who often acts this way towards her younger cousin (not
quite 3) when she's visiting. In our case, there are so many variables
coming into play. First being that my daughter is an only child, and not
used to sharing attention with anyone. She also gets overwhelmed easily,
and this sort of behavior for us is often an indication that it's time to
call the visit to an end, or give both kids some food and a bit of time out,
usually sitting down to watch some TV, or playing different activities in
different rooms. I agree with Sandra too, I think it will change so much
with age, and especially as her cousin gets a little older and is more able
to understand DD's complex games. I'm hoping so anyway.

Tamara

Sandra Dodd

-=-for us is often an indication that it's time to
call the visit to an end, or give both kids some food and a bit of time out,
usually sitting down to watch some TV, or playing different activities in
different rooms. -=-

"Time out" jumped out at me.

Parents can change the activity in an exciting way, without either "calling time out" (sportswise) or "putting kids in time out" (punishment style). It's possible you didn't think of either phrase, but the phrase time out, when combined with young children, is charged with sorrow and history now, after several decades of various styles of solitary confinement imposed on young children whose parents could have used being more creative and compassionate.

Sandra

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Rinelle

> -=-for us is often an indication that it's time to
> call the visit to an end, or give both kids some food and a bit of time
> out,
> usually sitting down to watch some TV, or playing different activities in
> different rooms. -=-
>
> "Time out" jumped out at me.
>
> Parents can change the activity in an exciting way, without either
> "calling time out" (sportswise) or "putting kids in time
> out" (punishment style). It's possible you didn't think of either phrase,
> but the phrase time out, when combined with
> young children, is charged with sorrow and history now, after several
> decades of various styles of solitary
> confinement imposed on young children whose parents could have used being
> more creative and compassionate.

Thanks for picking up on that Sandra. I definitely wouldn't want what I
said to be seen as in any way related to time out, a concept that I don't
agree with at all. A better way to have phrased it was to take a break from
the current activity. I usually just suggest that we watch some TV, and
hand them a monkey platter. If they objected to this (which happens
sometimes, but not often, as my daughter seems to recognize that she needs a
short break), we'd sit down and find another way to work through it.
Usually she only needs 5 minutes, then she has worked her brain around the
problem, and found a way to solve it so that everyone can enjoy continuing
play.

I have to admit to having unfortunately tried 'time out' when my DD was
younger, out of sheer desperation of what to do to cope with her being very
upset over what I now see as my attempts to control her. I only wish I had
discovered unschooling then, as it really has helped us solve a lot of the
problems that we used to try to solve with time out. Now that I'm slowly
peeling back the layers of control (that I never realized I was putting
there before), she is almost never upset (in the same way), and we're all so
much happier.

I do think time out causes a lot of emotional scaring, which was really
evident in my daughter. She had always wanted to be close to me, but this
became even more obvious when we were using time out, to the extent that my
5yo didn't want to be in a separate room to DH or I, even if it were so
close that she could still see us. A year after stopping time out (and
promising her I'd never do it again), we're finally starting to see the
return of her being happy to be in another room for a short time.

Tamara