Family harmony and unschooling -- (Long post)
kristi_beguin
I am wondering if experienced unschoolers out there can help shed some light on what we may be able to do differently to bring back the family peace. This situation feels complicated by the fact that I work outside the home, and my husband (very supportive of unschooling) and our parents are the primary caregivers.
For the past couple of months, I have been riding an emotional rollercoaster with regards to family harmony and disharmony. As a result, I have spent many hours exploring whether continuing with unschooling is appropriate, or whether school might be a better answereven if only for the short term.
At times I feel confused and lost, and at other times my conviction one way or another is strong and right. My husband and I have discussed the pros and the cons of both sides, and I have been asking my children which way they want to go. In the end, I still have no clear answers. My heart wants to continue unschooling wholly and completely. My oldest daughter (8) does not want to be in school, and my youngest daughter (5) does not know what school is all about, but thinks that she would like to be there...sometimes. She just as easily says she does not want to go to school.
For the past two years everything has been fine. Then came December. The kids came down with the first of several serious colds of the winter. Added to the all ready stir-crazy feelings we felt, the weather in December and February was unusually cold and miserable. Below zero temperatures, no snow for snow play, and a heightened anxiety on the part of my oldest daughter about leaving the house made more some seriously long weeks.
My oldest daughter goes through periods of increased anxiety that affect her willingness to go places with family members other than me. My daughter's anxiety seemed to skyrocket over the winter. She didn't want to go next door to Grandma's house on the days my Mother-in-law watches them. She mostly refused to go anywhere with my DH when he would attempt to get them out of the house to change the scenery. She wanted her sister to be with her if they did decide to go somewhere, and did not want her sister to go without her.
All of these things seem to have led up to an increase in the fighting between my daughters and an increase in the amount of clean-up we have to do as a result of being at home so much.
My DH cannot tolerate fighting between them at all. He will go from 0 to 100 in a second flat...with zero being kind, loving, and tolerant and 100 being flat-out yelling at them to stop. He and I have discussed this a lot, and he feels like a couple things contribute to his not being able to tolerate this well. First is his own childhood and his experience with his older sister, and the way his father handled things. Second is the fact that he suffered a brain injury 8 years ago that has caused a decreased ability to tolerate things he might have easily tolerated prior to the accident.
He also cannot tolerate the amount of clutter that generates as a result to the kids playing and creating all day. The piles of drawings, the remnants of playing store, or cars, or school, or polly pockets grate against him and contribute to his stress level. Even when we clean it up every day, the fact that it is generated the next wears him out all over again. I often spend my one day off mid-week over-cleaning to prevent more conflictbut that results in my girls needing me more, and to more bad feelings because I was cleaning and not being present for them.
Increased angst between my DH and my DDs led to increased angst between him and me. I've had moments of not handling it well within the past several months. Things have been rapidly improving with nicer weather. But for a while, it seemed that our household was a den of unpleasant talk, sibling conflict, parental angst, and a whole lot of elevated voices.
Because I have to work to support our family, my feelings of inadequacy for not being present or being the stay-at-home parent was growing. My DH's lack of tolerance for the increased fighting and clutter seemed unfair to my daughters. So the question kept arising, "Would they be better off in school?"
So then I started off onto the school path with conviction. I decided to attend the special Kindergarten registration in two weeks. I found out who the 3rd grade teachers are. I got all the paperwork needed to register my oldest for school once again. I started feeling good about this choice. Easy schedules would lead to harmony. Being in school would prevent the sister conflicts because they would not be together all day. My house would be clean because the girls would not be home for a good chunk of the day. They would see their friends more. My DH would be much less stressed out over clutter and conflict. I would be less stressed because he is less stressed.
And then I started having second thoughts. After reviewing the 2nd grade work my friend's daughter is doing, and thinking about what we might need to "get up to speed" for 3rd grade, I realized how very much I don't want my kids in school, and why we pulled our oldest out to begin with. So I had some deep heart-to-heart talks with my DH about what we can do differently to ensure that next winter doesn't end up like this past one. He is fully supportive of unschooling, but it's the simple issues like fighting, cleaning up clutter, or the unwillingness to get out and do stuff that wear him down and then stress him out. And he is the one who is with them most of the time.
Our parents felt the pain of the issues as well, with my mother-in-law heading to the local library to check out books on child psychology and development. And my Mom asking if my youngest would be attending Kindergarten in the fall so that "she can have her own life."
While things are much more calm recently, the storm does not feel like it's over. My oldest is still expressing a deep rage, on occasion, that is directed towards me, and is a challenge all on its own. Despite our recent discussions on continuing without school, my husband is still reacting to situations, rather than responding with some forethought. (I realize that recent discussions aren't going to magically change the way he deals with things, but I was hopeful.) I still have feelings of being on the edge...caught between wanting to unschool and wondering if school would be better.
More than anything, I feel like I'm missing something that might be the key to bringing in more peace.
Thank you for reading, I realize long posts take a lot of time to go through.
For the past couple of months, I have been riding an emotional rollercoaster with regards to family harmony and disharmony. As a result, I have spent many hours exploring whether continuing with unschooling is appropriate, or whether school might be a better answereven if only for the short term.
At times I feel confused and lost, and at other times my conviction one way or another is strong and right. My husband and I have discussed the pros and the cons of both sides, and I have been asking my children which way they want to go. In the end, I still have no clear answers. My heart wants to continue unschooling wholly and completely. My oldest daughter (8) does not want to be in school, and my youngest daughter (5) does not know what school is all about, but thinks that she would like to be there...sometimes. She just as easily says she does not want to go to school.
For the past two years everything has been fine. Then came December. The kids came down with the first of several serious colds of the winter. Added to the all ready stir-crazy feelings we felt, the weather in December and February was unusually cold and miserable. Below zero temperatures, no snow for snow play, and a heightened anxiety on the part of my oldest daughter about leaving the house made more some seriously long weeks.
My oldest daughter goes through periods of increased anxiety that affect her willingness to go places with family members other than me. My daughter's anxiety seemed to skyrocket over the winter. She didn't want to go next door to Grandma's house on the days my Mother-in-law watches them. She mostly refused to go anywhere with my DH when he would attempt to get them out of the house to change the scenery. She wanted her sister to be with her if they did decide to go somewhere, and did not want her sister to go without her.
All of these things seem to have led up to an increase in the fighting between my daughters and an increase in the amount of clean-up we have to do as a result of being at home so much.
My DH cannot tolerate fighting between them at all. He will go from 0 to 100 in a second flat...with zero being kind, loving, and tolerant and 100 being flat-out yelling at them to stop. He and I have discussed this a lot, and he feels like a couple things contribute to his not being able to tolerate this well. First is his own childhood and his experience with his older sister, and the way his father handled things. Second is the fact that he suffered a brain injury 8 years ago that has caused a decreased ability to tolerate things he might have easily tolerated prior to the accident.
He also cannot tolerate the amount of clutter that generates as a result to the kids playing and creating all day. The piles of drawings, the remnants of playing store, or cars, or school, or polly pockets grate against him and contribute to his stress level. Even when we clean it up every day, the fact that it is generated the next wears him out all over again. I often spend my one day off mid-week over-cleaning to prevent more conflictbut that results in my girls needing me more, and to more bad feelings because I was cleaning and not being present for them.
Increased angst between my DH and my DDs led to increased angst between him and me. I've had moments of not handling it well within the past several months. Things have been rapidly improving with nicer weather. But for a while, it seemed that our household was a den of unpleasant talk, sibling conflict, parental angst, and a whole lot of elevated voices.
Because I have to work to support our family, my feelings of inadequacy for not being present or being the stay-at-home parent was growing. My DH's lack of tolerance for the increased fighting and clutter seemed unfair to my daughters. So the question kept arising, "Would they be better off in school?"
So then I started off onto the school path with conviction. I decided to attend the special Kindergarten registration in two weeks. I found out who the 3rd grade teachers are. I got all the paperwork needed to register my oldest for school once again. I started feeling good about this choice. Easy schedules would lead to harmony. Being in school would prevent the sister conflicts because they would not be together all day. My house would be clean because the girls would not be home for a good chunk of the day. They would see their friends more. My DH would be much less stressed out over clutter and conflict. I would be less stressed because he is less stressed.
And then I started having second thoughts. After reviewing the 2nd grade work my friend's daughter is doing, and thinking about what we might need to "get up to speed" for 3rd grade, I realized how very much I don't want my kids in school, and why we pulled our oldest out to begin with. So I had some deep heart-to-heart talks with my DH about what we can do differently to ensure that next winter doesn't end up like this past one. He is fully supportive of unschooling, but it's the simple issues like fighting, cleaning up clutter, or the unwillingness to get out and do stuff that wear him down and then stress him out. And he is the one who is with them most of the time.
Our parents felt the pain of the issues as well, with my mother-in-law heading to the local library to check out books on child psychology and development. And my Mom asking if my youngest would be attending Kindergarten in the fall so that "she can have her own life."
While things are much more calm recently, the storm does not feel like it's over. My oldest is still expressing a deep rage, on occasion, that is directed towards me, and is a challenge all on its own. Despite our recent discussions on continuing without school, my husband is still reacting to situations, rather than responding with some forethought. (I realize that recent discussions aren't going to magically change the way he deals with things, but I was hopeful.) I still have feelings of being on the edge...caught between wanting to unschool and wondering if school would be better.
More than anything, I feel like I'm missing something that might be the key to bringing in more peace.
Thank you for reading, I realize long posts take a lot of time to go through.
Sandra Dodd
-= Things have been rapidly improving with nicer weather. But for a while, it seemed that our household was a den of unpleasant talk, sibling conflict, parental angst, and a whole lot of elevated voices.-=-
Next year the girls will be a year older, and your husband will be a year older (maybe softer) and more experienced.
-=-Then came December. The kids came down with the first of several serious colds of the winter. Added to the all ready stir-crazy feelings we felt, the weather in December and February was unusually cold and miserable. Below zero temperatures, no snow for snow play, and a heightened anxiety on the part of my oldest daughter about leaving the house made more some seriously long weeks.-=-
About this and several other passages, the real question is this:
Would school have made a difference? How would their having been enrolled in school been a different situation?
You're asking about many things that would be the same or worse with school and transportation/clothing/lunches/homework in the mix.
-=My DH cannot tolerate fighting between them at all. He will go from 0 to 100 in a second flat...with zero being kind, loving, and tolerant and 100 being flat-out yelling at them to stop. He and I have discussed this a lot, and he feels like a couple things contribute to his not being able to tolerate this well. First is his own childhood and his experience with his older sister, and the way his father handled things. Second is the fact that he suffered a brain injury 8 years ago that has caused a decreased ability to tolerate things he might have easily tolerated prior to the accident.-=-
He needs to look at his childhood as something he does NOT want to repeat, and make choices that provide better situations.
He should not use it as an excuse to be the same way.
-=-He also cannot tolerate the amount of clutter that generates as a result to the kids playing and creating all day.-=-
Then he needs to be cleaning it up as the day goes along.
http://sandradodd.com/chores/shift
http://sandradodd.com/chores
Either he learns to tolerate it, or he cleans it up.
Or they go to school, there are STILL messes in the house, you discover it was nothing about unschooling at all, and you still have the problems (plus more laundry, and homework).
-= Being in school would prevent the sister conflicts because they would not be together all day. -=-
It could also prevent longterm friendship and cooperation between them, and possibly make their time together MORE stressful because schools do not encourage (and do not allow) mixed-age socializing, friendship or even communication.
-=- He is fully supportive of unschooling, but it's the simple issues like fighting, cleaning up clutter, or the unwillingness to get out and do stuff that wear him down and then stress him out. And he is the one who is with them most of the time.-=-
One cannot be "fully supportive of unschooling" without the willingness to make those children's lives better than school. If he's unwilling to get out and do things with him, THAT is causing much of the fighting and clutter. They need to be out two or three times a week. If that sounds like too much, go for five or six times, and then two or three won't seem so overwhelming. And on your day off, especially, get the girls out to do something, and let your husband have a day off. [I thought I heard a "yeah, but..." at a distance. Not "yeah, but." Day off from kids, or at least many hours off. Men do NOT have the facility women have, nor the duty to be with their children as much as moms should be.
-=-. My oldest is still expressing a deep rage, on occasion, that is directed towards me, and is a challenge all on its own. -=-
They're too young to be without their mom, unless the plan was to have them in school, where those pesky familial bonds could be broken and scar tissue form over those biological desires. If she's angry, be with her more. Before and after work. Can your husband take them to have lunch with you during your break?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Next year the girls will be a year older, and your husband will be a year older (maybe softer) and more experienced.
-=-Then came December. The kids came down with the first of several serious colds of the winter. Added to the all ready stir-crazy feelings we felt, the weather in December and February was unusually cold and miserable. Below zero temperatures, no snow for snow play, and a heightened anxiety on the part of my oldest daughter about leaving the house made more some seriously long weeks.-=-
About this and several other passages, the real question is this:
Would school have made a difference? How would their having been enrolled in school been a different situation?
You're asking about many things that would be the same or worse with school and transportation/clothing/lunches/homework in the mix.
-=My DH cannot tolerate fighting between them at all. He will go from 0 to 100 in a second flat...with zero being kind, loving, and tolerant and 100 being flat-out yelling at them to stop. He and I have discussed this a lot, and he feels like a couple things contribute to his not being able to tolerate this well. First is his own childhood and his experience with his older sister, and the way his father handled things. Second is the fact that he suffered a brain injury 8 years ago that has caused a decreased ability to tolerate things he might have easily tolerated prior to the accident.-=-
He needs to look at his childhood as something he does NOT want to repeat, and make choices that provide better situations.
He should not use it as an excuse to be the same way.
-=-He also cannot tolerate the amount of clutter that generates as a result to the kids playing and creating all day.-=-
Then he needs to be cleaning it up as the day goes along.
http://sandradodd.com/chores/shift
http://sandradodd.com/chores
Either he learns to tolerate it, or he cleans it up.
Or they go to school, there are STILL messes in the house, you discover it was nothing about unschooling at all, and you still have the problems (plus more laundry, and homework).
-= Being in school would prevent the sister conflicts because they would not be together all day. -=-
It could also prevent longterm friendship and cooperation between them, and possibly make their time together MORE stressful because schools do not encourage (and do not allow) mixed-age socializing, friendship or even communication.
-=- He is fully supportive of unschooling, but it's the simple issues like fighting, cleaning up clutter, or the unwillingness to get out and do stuff that wear him down and then stress him out. And he is the one who is with them most of the time.-=-
One cannot be "fully supportive of unschooling" without the willingness to make those children's lives better than school. If he's unwilling to get out and do things with him, THAT is causing much of the fighting and clutter. They need to be out two or three times a week. If that sounds like too much, go for five or six times, and then two or three won't seem so overwhelming. And on your day off, especially, get the girls out to do something, and let your husband have a day off. [I thought I heard a "yeah, but..." at a distance. Not "yeah, but." Day off from kids, or at least many hours off. Men do NOT have the facility women have, nor the duty to be with their children as much as moms should be.
-=-. My oldest is still expressing a deep rage, on occasion, that is directed towards me, and is a challenge all on its own. -=-
They're too young to be without their mom, unless the plan was to have them in school, where those pesky familial bonds could be broken and scar tissue form over those biological desires. If she's angry, be with her more. Before and after work. Can your husband take them to have lunch with you during your break?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
kristi_beguin
>>>If he's unwilling to get out and do things with him, THAT is causing much of the fighting and clutter. They need to be out two or three times a week. If that sounds like too much, go for five or six times, and then two or three won't seem so overwhelming.<<<The unwillingness to get out is from my oldest DD...she often does not want to go anywhere without me. My, husband, on the other hand, wants to get out and about a lot and gets frustrated when DD refuses. Just wanted to clarify that.
Robin Bentley
> They need to be out two or three times a week. If that sounds likeIt might have been my "yeah, but..." you heard <g>.
> too much, go for five or six times, and then two or three won't seem
> so overwhelming. And on your day off, especially, get the girls out
> to do something, and let your husband have a day off. [I thought I
> heard a "yeah, but..." at a distance.
I was wondering how you get a kid who has serious anxiety issues out
five or six times a week? The eldest doesn't want to go anywhere
without her mother or her sister, not even wanting to go to grandma's.
I remember a least a couple of people on this list or in chat talking
about their young daughters being seriously anxious about being out of
the house. The moms strewed opportunities to do things and accepted it
when they were turned down. The moms gave their kids plenty of
whatever it was they seemed to need to get over their anxiety. And
they eventually did, mostly. Part of it seemed to be personality. The
children needed support, understanding and help to move through their
fears.
Senna is mostly a homebody, but loves to get out to do things with
either one of us (today, she went with me to keep me company while I
redirected rally school participants because of flooding. She got up
at 5 a.m. to help!) She has anxieties, but not ones that stop her from
leaving the house. If she did, I would try to make her life as rich as
possible, while finding ways to help her get over her fear. That would
probably mean a hugely messy house!
Robin B.
Sandra Dodd
-=-It might have been my "yeah, but..." you heard <g>.
-=-I was wondering how you get a kid who has serious anxiety issues out
five or six times a week? The eldest doesn't want to go anywhere
without her mother or her sister, not even wanting to go to grandma's.-=-
I thought it was the dad not wanting to go out.
That's different.
With an only child who doesn't want to go out, I'd just not go out.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-=-I was wondering how you get a kid who has serious anxiety issues out
five or six times a week? The eldest doesn't want to go anywhere
without her mother or her sister, not even wanting to go to grandma's.-=-
I thought it was the dad not wanting to go out.
That's different.
With an only child who doesn't want to go out, I'd just not go out.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
dezignarob
I want to make a couple of suggestions, but before I do that, I want to empathize - leaving out the brain injury and the second child - we have similar issues in my house. Especially about anger and the periodic, sometimes often, lack of peace. I understand about a lot of it.
So on to my thoughts:
====He also cannot tolerate the amount of clutter that generates as a result to the kids playing and creating all day. The piles of drawings, the remnants of playing store, or cars, or school, or polly pockets grate against him and contribute to his stress level.====
Your eldest daughter is 8, and your dh had his brain injury 8 years ago. It might (might) be that you have no real way of knowing that he would have tolerated clutter more had he not had his accident. I hope that you are not, in your deepest heart, thinking anything like "this is not a real concern, it's just because of his accident."
I only say this because it's a real issue. Some people are really much more bothered by visual disorder than others. In some people it builds up. There is a thing called "clutter blindness" that is a hallmark of hoarders. Unfortunately I have the facility for clutter blindness, and sometimes it does take my dh expressing frustration (and he is really patient about it) for me to notice the clutter. If clutter blindness is a thing, perhaps the opposite is also a thing.
Obviously my situation is different from the OP's, in that I am the one at home most of the time, although I do spend much of that working. The division of household stuff is something that has been a low grade nagging ache in our (dh & mine) relationship since I started working outside the home.
However a number of years ago my dh was being really cranky and twitchy and long story short, it turned out that the then current level of mess was bringing up deep seated fears of abandonment. He thought I had ceased taking care of "his" home because I was planning to leave. My astonishment was boundless.
So while I agree with Sandra, that your day off should be one for reconnecting with your kids, and giving him a break, rather than cleaning the house, I also wonder if you, the grandparent caregivers and your dh couldn't do some more practical brainstorming about keeping the level of clutter more manageable for dh. (I add that I don't think it is reasonable to expect an immaculate home in the presence of any children playing, let alone unschoolers who use their home as their lab, workshop and art studio.)
Some suggestions I have include:
Geography - reorganizing the spaces where projects and play occur in the house. Maybe there is a room (or closet - Jayn used to play in the coat closet off the living room) that you can close the door upon, or pull a curtain. Maybe dh needs a place that he can sit where he has a serene view out the window instead of facing the mess, his own cave. Perhaps a playhouse outside would be helpful at least over summer.
Pragmatism - maybe there are ways to reorganize the storage of toys and materials so that they can be cleaned up much more easily - rolling bins, I love labels, low flat bins that slide under beds, stacking things under the hall table and maybe hiding it with a tablecloth, armoires instead of open shelves. Maybe dh needs some easier clean up strategies so that he is not overwhelmed by the task of it.
Play methods - Low tables that have a top that fits over them to hide the set up below, rolling tables that can be moved back to the aforementioned play room, using big trays for ongoing set ups that can be carried away intact.
As for anger, we are working on that over here, and I will be interested to read the responses.
I believe that Jayn is a total mirror of the emotional state of first me, second dh, and third the state of dh&my relationship. If we are stressed, especially because of outside forces such as money worries or job stressors, Jayn becomes more cranky and even more rigorous in protecting what she evidently perceives as an intention on our part to control her. (Generally this is a mistaken belief on her part, I might add - but that doesn't mitigate her defensive feelings.)
===My oldest daughter goes through periods of increased anxiety that affect her willingness to go places with family members other than me. My daughter's anxiety seemed to skyrocket over the winter. She didn't want to go next door to Grandma's house on the days my Mother-in-law watches them. She mostly refused to go anywhere with my DH when he would attempt to get them out of the house to change the scenery. She wanted her sister to be with her if they did decide to go somewhere, and did not want her sister to go without her.=====
I suspect that your eldest dd is feeling a lack of control in her life possibly because of the constant shifts in caregivers, or possibly because of what might be a volatility in your dh's emotional state, or some other reason. This feeling could be causing her to want to exert control on those around her, including her younger sister.
Jayn rarely wants to go on generalized outings, and certainly never wants to go to park days - but she does like going to specific pre-planned events like play dates with her friends. She used to be a lot more flexible about spontaneous notions; now (at 11.5) not so much.
Maybe you could organize some visitors for your eldest - a playdate with a parent who stays, while dh takes the younger out on her outing. If dd8 has someone else to play with she might be happier about relinquishing her sister.
Dh tends to react strongly when he believes that I am under attack from Jayn. It never helps in the moment. What helps is always for me to remain as calm and soft spoken as possible with both of them.
====Because I have to work to support our family, my feelings of inadequacy for not being present or being the stay-at-home parent was growing. My DH's lack of tolerance for the increased fighting and clutter seemed unfair to my daughters. So the question kept arising, "Would they be better off in school?"====
There's that mirror again. Your dd is possibly (I might say probably) mirroring your emotional state - even if it is unspoken.
They =might= be better off in school. They might be better off in a home school co-op situation where they get to make mess elsewhere.
But I suspect that the girls could simply exchange one set of stressors for another even sharper set, and you could have greater guilt on top of it.
I would encourage you and dh to find ways to release his anxiety. I hope you can find a way to be home more. I hope he can find strategies for being calmer in the moment.
Is this brain injury the deal breaker? Maybe Grandma should have more time with the girls. Maybe you and he need more date nights, even just lunch out or a drive to watch the sunset. Helps dh and I a lot.
I'm getting to the point of rambling now, so I'll stop.
Robyn L. Coburn
Certified Scrapbook Instructor
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.robyncoburn.blogspot.com
So on to my thoughts:
====He also cannot tolerate the amount of clutter that generates as a result to the kids playing and creating all day. The piles of drawings, the remnants of playing store, or cars, or school, or polly pockets grate against him and contribute to his stress level.====
Your eldest daughter is 8, and your dh had his brain injury 8 years ago. It might (might) be that you have no real way of knowing that he would have tolerated clutter more had he not had his accident. I hope that you are not, in your deepest heart, thinking anything like "this is not a real concern, it's just because of his accident."
I only say this because it's a real issue. Some people are really much more bothered by visual disorder than others. In some people it builds up. There is a thing called "clutter blindness" that is a hallmark of hoarders. Unfortunately I have the facility for clutter blindness, and sometimes it does take my dh expressing frustration (and he is really patient about it) for me to notice the clutter. If clutter blindness is a thing, perhaps the opposite is also a thing.
Obviously my situation is different from the OP's, in that I am the one at home most of the time, although I do spend much of that working. The division of household stuff is something that has been a low grade nagging ache in our (dh & mine) relationship since I started working outside the home.
However a number of years ago my dh was being really cranky and twitchy and long story short, it turned out that the then current level of mess was bringing up deep seated fears of abandonment. He thought I had ceased taking care of "his" home because I was planning to leave. My astonishment was boundless.
So while I agree with Sandra, that your day off should be one for reconnecting with your kids, and giving him a break, rather than cleaning the house, I also wonder if you, the grandparent caregivers and your dh couldn't do some more practical brainstorming about keeping the level of clutter more manageable for dh. (I add that I don't think it is reasonable to expect an immaculate home in the presence of any children playing, let alone unschoolers who use their home as their lab, workshop and art studio.)
Some suggestions I have include:
Geography - reorganizing the spaces where projects and play occur in the house. Maybe there is a room (or closet - Jayn used to play in the coat closet off the living room) that you can close the door upon, or pull a curtain. Maybe dh needs a place that he can sit where he has a serene view out the window instead of facing the mess, his own cave. Perhaps a playhouse outside would be helpful at least over summer.
Pragmatism - maybe there are ways to reorganize the storage of toys and materials so that they can be cleaned up much more easily - rolling bins, I love labels, low flat bins that slide under beds, stacking things under the hall table and maybe hiding it with a tablecloth, armoires instead of open shelves. Maybe dh needs some easier clean up strategies so that he is not overwhelmed by the task of it.
Play methods - Low tables that have a top that fits over them to hide the set up below, rolling tables that can be moved back to the aforementioned play room, using big trays for ongoing set ups that can be carried away intact.
As for anger, we are working on that over here, and I will be interested to read the responses.
I believe that Jayn is a total mirror of the emotional state of first me, second dh, and third the state of dh&my relationship. If we are stressed, especially because of outside forces such as money worries or job stressors, Jayn becomes more cranky and even more rigorous in protecting what she evidently perceives as an intention on our part to control her. (Generally this is a mistaken belief on her part, I might add - but that doesn't mitigate her defensive feelings.)
===My oldest daughter goes through periods of increased anxiety that affect her willingness to go places with family members other than me. My daughter's anxiety seemed to skyrocket over the winter. She didn't want to go next door to Grandma's house on the days my Mother-in-law watches them. She mostly refused to go anywhere with my DH when he would attempt to get them out of the house to change the scenery. She wanted her sister to be with her if they did decide to go somewhere, and did not want her sister to go without her.=====
I suspect that your eldest dd is feeling a lack of control in her life possibly because of the constant shifts in caregivers, or possibly because of what might be a volatility in your dh's emotional state, or some other reason. This feeling could be causing her to want to exert control on those around her, including her younger sister.
Jayn rarely wants to go on generalized outings, and certainly never wants to go to park days - but she does like going to specific pre-planned events like play dates with her friends. She used to be a lot more flexible about spontaneous notions; now (at 11.5) not so much.
Maybe you could organize some visitors for your eldest - a playdate with a parent who stays, while dh takes the younger out on her outing. If dd8 has someone else to play with she might be happier about relinquishing her sister.
Dh tends to react strongly when he believes that I am under attack from Jayn. It never helps in the moment. What helps is always for me to remain as calm and soft spoken as possible with both of them.
====Because I have to work to support our family, my feelings of inadequacy for not being present or being the stay-at-home parent was growing. My DH's lack of tolerance for the increased fighting and clutter seemed unfair to my daughters. So the question kept arising, "Would they be better off in school?"====
There's that mirror again. Your dd is possibly (I might say probably) mirroring your emotional state - even if it is unspoken.
They =might= be better off in school. They might be better off in a home school co-op situation where they get to make mess elsewhere.
But I suspect that the girls could simply exchange one set of stressors for another even sharper set, and you could have greater guilt on top of it.
I would encourage you and dh to find ways to release his anxiety. I hope you can find a way to be home more. I hope he can find strategies for being calmer in the moment.
Is this brain injury the deal breaker? Maybe Grandma should have more time with the girls. Maybe you and he need more date nights, even just lunch out or a drive to watch the sunset. Helps dh and I a lot.
I'm getting to the point of rambling now, so I'll stop.
Robyn L. Coburn
Certified Scrapbook Instructor
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.robyncoburn.blogspot.com
Robin Bentley
>Gotcha.
> I thought it was the dad not wanting to go out.
> That's different.
>That's what I did and sometimes still do.
> With an only child who doesn't want to go out, I'd just not go out.
I guess it might come down to how much the younger sister needs to get
out. If she does, then maybe dad takes her places when mom can be home
with the eldest.
Robin B.
aswampyankee
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
******Men do NOT have the facility women have, nor the duty to be with their children as much as moms should be.******
Can you elaborate on this (in the context not of very young, still nursing children - but in the context of older children such as the original poster's, who I believe she said are 8 and 5)?
My son is 8, and I am having trouble wrapping my brain around the idea that my husband (his father) does not have as much facility or duty to be with him as I do. Please help me understand.
Thank you!
Sandra Dodd
-=-My son is 8, and I am having trouble wrapping my brain around the idea that my husband (his father) does not have as much facility or duty to be with him as I do.-=-
It's my idea. You don't have to wrap your brain around it.
DOES your husband have as much facility to be with him as you do?
DOES he have as much duty to be with him as you do?
Is your son as happy, at eight, to be with his father as with his mother?
It doesn't matter what I think. If my ideas are valid, it doesn't matter whose ideas they are. It doesn't matter whether I ever wrote or even ever lived.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
It's my idea. You don't have to wrap your brain around it.
DOES your husband have as much facility to be with him as you do?
DOES he have as much duty to be with him as you do?
Is your son as happy, at eight, to be with his father as with his mother?
It doesn't matter what I think. If my ideas are valid, it doesn't matter whose ideas they are. It doesn't matter whether I ever wrote or even ever lived.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
On 3/31/2011 1:20 PM, kristi_beguin wrote:
And is your husband going out on those days? Can MIL just come over and
help out with clutter a couple of times per week, perhaps?
Also - if your daughter has anxiety about leaving the house at all, how
did you think she would handle being required to leave to go to school
every day? Does she do better with going out for things that are
regularly scheduled? Can you take her to something in the evenings,
after work, a couple of nights a week? Maybe a group activity that you
sign up for - something through the city recreation department, for
example. Maybe if you have a very regularly scheduled activity that she
gets used to going to with you, she'll be willing for your dh or mil to
drive her there, after a while.
That would leave your husband home alone (if you take younger daughter
with you, too. Maybe he needs more time home alone. I used to never have
any time at home on my own - if I wanted alone time, I had to leave the
house. That was hard on me and my crankiness level would creep up. I
really like to have several hours a few times per week to be home alone.
If I only get a couple of hours once or twice a week, I won't tend to
use them very productively in terms of getting the house cleaned. But
once I get that minimum time, any more than that and I'll get to work on
decluttering and so on. I really like having the house to myself
sometimes - even though I love the energy and activity of my family life!
-pam
> She didn't want to go next door to Grandma's house on the days myCan't MIL go watch them at your house without making that a big deal?
> Mother-in-law watches them.
And is your husband going out on those days? Can MIL just come over and
help out with clutter a couple of times per week, perhaps?
Also - if your daughter has anxiety about leaving the house at all, how
did you think she would handle being required to leave to go to school
every day? Does she do better with going out for things that are
regularly scheduled? Can you take her to something in the evenings,
after work, a couple of nights a week? Maybe a group activity that you
sign up for - something through the city recreation department, for
example. Maybe if you have a very regularly scheduled activity that she
gets used to going to with you, she'll be willing for your dh or mil to
drive her there, after a while.
That would leave your husband home alone (if you take younger daughter
with you, too. Maybe he needs more time home alone. I used to never have
any time at home on my own - if I wanted alone time, I had to leave the
house. That was hard on me and my crankiness level would creep up. I
really like to have several hours a few times per week to be home alone.
If I only get a couple of hours once or twice a week, I won't tend to
use them very productively in terms of getting the house cleaned. But
once I get that minimum time, any more than that and I'll get to work on
decluttering and so on. I really like having the house to myself
sometimes - even though I love the energy and activity of my family life!
-pam
dola dasgupta-banerji
>>>>>>>>He needs to look at his childhood as something he does NOT want torepeat, and make choices that provide better situations.
He should not use it as an excuse to be the same way.<<<<<<<<
Please also suggests ways to make this happen. If it is not an unschooling
question please ignore.
Dola
On Fri, Apr 1, 2011 at 2:14 AM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
>
> -= Things have been rapidly improving with nicer weather. But for a while,
> it seemed that our household was a den of unpleasant talk, sibling conflict,
> parental angst, and a whole lot of elevated voices.-=-
>
> Next year the girls will be a year older, and your husband will be a year
> older (maybe softer) and more experienced.
>
> -=-Then came December. The kids came down with the first of several serious
> colds of the winter. Added to the all ready stir-crazy feelings we felt, the
> weather in December and February was unusually cold and miserable. Below
> zero temperatures, no snow for snow play, and a heightened anxiety on the
> part of my oldest daughter about leaving the house made more some seriously
> long weeks.-=-
>
> About this and several other passages, the real question is this:
> Would school have made a difference? How would their having been enrolled
> in school been a different situation?
>
> You're asking about many things that would be the same or worse with school
> and transportation/clothing/lunches/homework in the mix.
>
> -=My DH cannot tolerate fighting between them at all. He will go from 0 to
> 100 in a second flat...with zero being kind, loving, and tolerant and 100
> being flat-out yelling at them to stop. He and I have discussed this a lot,
> and he feels like a couple things contribute to his not being able to
> tolerate this well. First is his own childhood and his experience with his
> older sister, and the way his father handled things. Second is the fact that
> he suffered a brain injury 8 years ago that has caused a decreased ability
> to tolerate things he might have easily tolerated prior to the accident.-=-
>
> He needs to look at his childhood as something he does NOT want to repeat,
> and make choices that provide better situations.
> He should not use it as an excuse to be the same way.
>
> -=-He also cannot tolerate the amount of clutter that generates as a result
> to the kids playing and creating all day.-=-
>
> Then he needs to be cleaning it up as the day goes along.
> http://sandradodd.com/chores/shift
> http://sandradodd.com/chores
>
> Either he learns to tolerate it, or he cleans it up.
> Or they go to school, there are STILL messes in the house, you discover it
> was nothing about unschooling at all, and you still have the problems (plus
> more laundry, and homework).
>
> -= Being in school would prevent the sister conflicts because they would
> not be together all day. -=-
>
> It could also prevent longterm friendship and cooperation between them, and
> possibly make their time together MORE stressful because schools do not
> encourage (and do not allow) mixed-age socializing, friendship or even
> communication.
>
> -=- He is fully supportive of unschooling, but it's the simple issues like
> fighting, cleaning up clutter, or the unwillingness to get out and do stuff
> that wear him down and then stress him out. And he is the one who is with
> them most of the time.-=-
>
> One cannot be "fully supportive of unschooling" without the willingness to
> make those children's lives better than school. If he's unwilling to get out
> and do things with him, THAT is causing much of the fighting and clutter.
> They need to be out two or three times a week. If that sounds like too much,
> go for five or six times, and then two or three won't seem so overwhelming.
> And on your day off, especially, get the girls out to do something, and let
> your husband have a day off. [I thought I heard a "yeah, but..." at a
> distance. Not "yeah, but." Day off from kids, or at least many hours off.
> Men do NOT have the facility women have, nor the duty to be with their
> children as much as moms should be.
>
> -=-. My oldest is still expressing a deep rage, on occasion, that is
> directed towards me, and is a challenge all on its own. -=-
>
> They're too young to be without their mom, unless the plan was to have them
> in school, where those pesky familial bonds could be broken and scar tissue
> form over those biological desires. If she's angry, be with her more. Before
> and after work. Can your husband take them to have lunch with you during
> your break?
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
dola dasgupta-banerji
Actually there is nothing to wrap. This is like one of those TRUTHS. One
just got to accept. I have experienced it first hand. I long gave up my IDEA
of what women can do men can do too....Does not work in the real world...
each has a unique facility, like Sandra pointed out here. I will second
this. Because I have experienced it. MOM IS what the kids want mostly.
But if the mom has to work outside home out of compulsion, then a lot of
figuring out has to be done on the basis of this one basic root....MOM IS
THE CENTER.
My husband is good at taking leads from me. But I have to give the lead.
Otherwise he is lost...I have hated him for being incompetent in the past,
because of the MYTH in MY HEAD. And he has hated me for NOT making things
CLEAR to him. But the truth is that HE NEEDS TO KNOW. Once he knows then it
is workable, I am not saying a cakewalk still.....
Sorry don't know if this really helps.
Dola
just got to accept. I have experienced it first hand. I long gave up my IDEA
of what women can do men can do too....Does not work in the real world...
each has a unique facility, like Sandra pointed out here. I will second
this. Because I have experienced it. MOM IS what the kids want mostly.
But if the mom has to work outside home out of compulsion, then a lot of
figuring out has to be done on the basis of this one basic root....MOM IS
THE CENTER.
My husband is good at taking leads from me. But I have to give the lead.
Otherwise he is lost...I have hated him for being incompetent in the past,
because of the MYTH in MY HEAD. And he has hated me for NOT making things
CLEAR to him. But the truth is that HE NEEDS TO KNOW. Once he knows then it
is workable, I am not saying a cakewalk still.....
Sorry don't know if this really helps.
Dola
On Fri, Apr 1, 2011 at 5:45 AM, aswampyankee <yankeeswamp@...> wrote:
>
>
> --- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> ******Men do NOT have the facility women have, nor the duty to be with
> their children as much as moms should be.******
>
> Can you elaborate on this (in the context not of very young, still nursing
> children - but in the context of older children such as the original
> poster's, who I believe she said are 8 and 5)?
>
> My son is 8, and I am having trouble wrapping my brain around the idea that
> my husband (his father) does not have as much facility or duty to be with
> him as I do. Please help me understand.
>
> Thank you!
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Actually there is nothing to wrap. This is like one of those TRUTHS. One
just got to accept-=-
I disagree with this.
There are thousands of things people hold as truths (or Truths or TRUTHS) that others see as nonsense. No one has to accept anything. No one should do anything that doesn't make sense to them (or believe or repeat anything that doesn't make sense to them).
-=-My husband is good at taking leads from me. But I have to give the lead.
Otherwise he is lost...I have hated him for being incompetent in the past,
because of the MYTH in MY HEAD. And he has hated me for NOT making things
CLEAR to him. But the truth is that HE NEEDS TO KNOW. Once he knows then it
is workable, I am not saying a cakewalk still.....-=-
If this were the other way around, how would it sound?
_____________________
My wife is good at taking leads from me. But I have to give the lead.
Otherwise she is lost...I have hated her for being incompetent in the past,
because of the MYTH in MY HEAD. And she has hated me for NOT making things
CLEAR to her. But the truth is that SHE NEEDS TO KNOW. Once she knows then it
is workable, I am not saying a cakewalk still.....
_____________________
"Knowing" and "truth" and "lead" shouldn't be unilateral in any dyad. People aren't working together or being partners if one is the dictator and the other is the hated incompetent.
FIND competence and value and knowledge in a child, a friend, a spouse. Find it and nurture it.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
just got to accept-=-
I disagree with this.
There are thousands of things people hold as truths (or Truths or TRUTHS) that others see as nonsense. No one has to accept anything. No one should do anything that doesn't make sense to them (or believe or repeat anything that doesn't make sense to them).
-=-My husband is good at taking leads from me. But I have to give the lead.
Otherwise he is lost...I have hated him for being incompetent in the past,
because of the MYTH in MY HEAD. And he has hated me for NOT making things
CLEAR to him. But the truth is that HE NEEDS TO KNOW. Once he knows then it
is workable, I am not saying a cakewalk still.....-=-
If this were the other way around, how would it sound?
_____________________
My wife is good at taking leads from me. But I have to give the lead.
Otherwise she is lost...I have hated her for being incompetent in the past,
because of the MYTH in MY HEAD. And she has hated me for NOT making things
CLEAR to her. But the truth is that SHE NEEDS TO KNOW. Once she knows then it
is workable, I am not saying a cakewalk still.....
_____________________
"Knowing" and "truth" and "lead" shouldn't be unilateral in any dyad. People aren't working together or being partners if one is the dictator and the other is the hated incompetent.
FIND competence and value and knowledge in a child, a friend, a spouse. Find it and nurture it.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
>>He needs to look at his childhood as something he does NOT want torepeat, and make choices that provide better situations.
He should not use it as an excuse to be the same way.<<<<<<<<
-=-Please also suggests ways to make this happen. If it is not an unschooling
question please ignore.-=-
One should no more try to make something happen in a spouse's learning than in a child's.
If someone asked "How do you make a child read?" or "How do you make a child like history?" the answer would be simple. You don't. You make it interesting, You make it casual. You back off as soon as they're uncomfortable. You don't risk ruining their interest forever by trying to "make" them do something, or learn something.
If one's childhood is an issue, then recovery to the extent of using it to inform one's decisions now, with children, is important. TOTAL and complete "recovery" from childhood hurts isn't necessary; probably isn't even possible.
How one decides to act toward, be with, think about and respond to children happens inside a person with a history, a person who had a childhood. Will childhood hurt be passed on to new children? Sad childhood memories can be seen as the things NOT to do, and healing can flow, but that can't be forced by anyone else. If it's not part of the thoughts and decision making of each parent, it won't work as well as it could.
http://sandradodd.com/issues/
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
HA
> The unwillingness to get out is from my oldest DD...she often does not want to go anywhere without me. <Does she not like going without you, or does she not like going? I have one son who doesn't like to go out much if he hasn't been going out much. It gets worse the longer we stay homebound. It takes a certain kind of motivation, and then he's very happy to go, and wants to go again.
If it's an issue of not wanting to go out without you, your husband might be able to motivate her by setting up something to do/get for you as part of the process?
Hilary
kristi_beguin
Robyn, I have sincerely appreciated your recent posts regarding Jayn's emotional issues. I very much admire your honesty (bravery?) in describing the difficult situations you've experienced, and those discussions were helpful for me.
One thing I thought about this morning is that it's not so much the actual mess that bothers DH, (because really, the messes are nothing extraordinary)it is the fact that the mess was generated by the girls, and in some ways I think he resents having to pick up something he didn't create.
I have talked about the idea of creating a blank slate so we can all have a clean space to be creative (thanks Pam!), and how it takes the same amount of energy to pick up a mess while angry as it does while being joyful, and the very real fact that the kind of messes made now will not be the messes made in the very near future as the kids grow and change. And sometimes these ideas seems to help him to be less grumpy and nagging about the messes. I think my problem is I'm always hopeful that something I say will be the magic key that helps him change his perspective forever. Unrealistic, I know, but I'm ever hopeful.
>>>It might (might) be that you have no real way of knowing that he would have tolerated clutter more had he not had his accident. I hope that you are not, in your deepest heart, thinking anything like "this is not a real concern, it's just because of his accident."<<<As background, my DH and I have been together for 23 years. More than half our lives; He will be 41 and I will be 40 this summer. We were together for 14 years prior to me getting pregnant. In many ways I know that his tolerance for a multitude of things was way better before the head injury. I try to not use it as an excuse. He uses it as an excuse frequently, but applies it only to tolerance and patience. I agree, though, that I shouldn't assume how things might be different now, had he never hit his head.
>>>...do some more practical brainstorming about keeping the level of clutter more manageable for dh.<<<The girls and I spent last weekend sorting through old toys, books, movies, and clothes to give away, and we made a pretty substantial dent in what was crowding out our storage spaces. I think an Ikea order will be performed next!!
One thing I thought about this morning is that it's not so much the actual mess that bothers DH, (because really, the messes are nothing extraordinary)it is the fact that the mess was generated by the girls, and in some ways I think he resents having to pick up something he didn't create.
I have talked about the idea of creating a blank slate so we can all have a clean space to be creative (thanks Pam!), and how it takes the same amount of energy to pick up a mess while angry as it does while being joyful, and the very real fact that the kind of messes made now will not be the messes made in the very near future as the kids grow and change. And sometimes these ideas seems to help him to be less grumpy and nagging about the messes. I think my problem is I'm always hopeful that something I say will be the magic key that helps him change his perspective forever. Unrealistic, I know, but I'm ever hopeful.
>>>I suspect that your eldest dd is feeling a lack of control in her life possibly because of the constant shifts in caregivers, or possibly because of what might be a volatility in your dh's emotional state, or some other reason. This feeling could be causing her to want to exert control on those around her, including her younger sister.<<<She definitely needs to feel in control of things, and we need to help her find more things to be responsible for. Our schedules have been very set for many years, so everything is very predictable and even-keel for her. I think the recent elevation of volatility has impacted her at a deep level. Interestingly, we house-sat for some neighbors that we don't know well all this week, and she took the reins for all the animal caring duties. Maybe finding more of these kinds of situations for her would be helpful, too, so she can really exert that feeling of being responsible for something outside of our usual space.
>>>Is this brain injury the deal breaker? <<<It's not a deal breaker. I just want to help him to move beyond it, because I really do think he's fully recovered, but perhaps it's an excuse to fall back on when things get rough.
kristi_beguin
>>>Next year the girls will be a year older, and your husband will be a year older (maybe softer) and more experienced.<<<And things to do change so fast. Excellent thing for me to keep in mind.
>>>You're asking about many things that would be the same or worse with school and transportation/clothing/lunches/homework in the mix.<<<I hadn't even considered that. My leisurely mornings would be shot!
>>>He needs to look at his childhood as something he does NOT want to repeat, and make choices that provide better situations. He should not use it as an excuse to be the same way.<<<This is what I am trying to help him see. His Dad is an amazingly cool person: an artist, inventor, master gardener, joker, fun guy. But he has a dark side too. Whenever someone tells DH that he's becoming a lot like his dad, he only thinks of that dark side, never all the good stuff.
>>>One cannot be "fully supportive of unschooling" without the willingness to make those children's lives better than school.<<<Got it. Supportive of unschooling, definitely, thankfully. At least we don't have that hurdle to scale. He does not want them in school either. His parents pulled him out of school at 16 and he went off to music school in Hollywood. Thankfully he does a lot to make his days with them fun...video game sessions, board games, recording in the studio, playing in the hot tub, climbing on our climbing wall, playing in the truck, setting up the tents in the house.
Maybe the frustrating thing for me is that sometimes it seems that he just as easily forgets all those home-based things are options from one week to the next, and I don't want to nag.
>>>They're too young to be without their mom, unless the plan was to have them in school<<<That was never the plan. I always wanted to homeschool, because we had met so many amazing homeschooled kids in our small town, but figured it would be impossible since I was the one who supports us. But, along came Nena who was petrified of school (unlike all my friends' kids), and we discovered we had to try to make it work. And we have been making it work...I think I have been forgetting that. He and I just need to brainstorm to make it work even better.
kristi_beguin
>>>Maybe he needs more time home alone. I used to never have any time at home on my own - if I wanted alone time, I had to leave the house. That was hard on me and my crankiness level would creep up. I really like to have several hours a few times per week to be home alone.<<<That makes me realize that I never have time at home alone! Ack!
He actually gets a lot of alone time. We are pretty busy with scheduled activities like gymnastics, soccer, and an environmental club when I get home in the afternoons, and on my days off.
I think his frustration stems also from the fact that he works from home in two different areas-- bike mechanics and music. And another issue is perhaps (I'm guessing here) that he feels some inadequacy at not being the primary provider of the family, even though he hates working for others. As I think about it, I've noticed his frustration escalates during the winter months when the bike work is slow and he has less supplemental income. Something to think about...
Sandra Dodd
-=One thing I thought about this morning is that it's not so much the actual mess that bothers DH, (because really, the messes are nothing extraordinary)it is the fact that the mess was generated by the girls, and in some ways I think he resents having to pick up something he didn't create.-=-
He created those children, and children are messy.
He has an interest in unschooling, and unschooling is messy.
Those resentments are probably rooted in his own childhood, and could be seen as part of recovery.
http://sandradodd.com/issues
-=- I think my problem is I'm always hopeful that something I say will be the magic key that helps him change his perspective forever. Unrealistic, I know, but I'm ever hopeful. -=-
That's more negative than you should be. Something someone says is almost always what helps someone change perspective. If that were not realistic, there would be no reason on earth for this list to exist. It surely wouldn't have lasted over nine years and had (officially) over 3,000 members.
Without meaning to, you've shown us a few times that your own attitude is fairly negative and defeatist. You can climb incrementally up out of the hole where all looks dark and "unrealistic," to the high ground where you can see in all directions!
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
He created those children, and children are messy.
He has an interest in unschooling, and unschooling is messy.
Those resentments are probably rooted in his own childhood, and could be seen as part of recovery.
http://sandradodd.com/issues
-=- I think my problem is I'm always hopeful that something I say will be the magic key that helps him change his perspective forever. Unrealistic, I know, but I'm ever hopeful. -=-
That's more negative than you should be. Something someone says is almost always what helps someone change perspective. If that were not realistic, there would be no reason on earth for this list to exist. It surely wouldn't have lasted over nine years and had (officially) over 3,000 members.
Without meaning to, you've shown us a few times that your own attitude is fairly negative and defeatist. You can climb incrementally up out of the hole where all looks dark and "unrealistic," to the high ground where you can see in all directions!
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
***Maybe the frustrating thing for me is that sometimes it seems that he just as
easily forgets all those home-based things are options from one week to the
next, and I don't want to nag.***
I get in slumps here and there were life isn't as sparkly as it could be, where
we seem to barely do anything beyond eat and sleep and make sure dishes and
laundry are clean. It isn't the ideal way to unschool and I know that keenly.
I wouldn't want my partner to reinforce the idea that I'm not really doing this
thing right, that I'm not doing as much as I could do, or that I'm somehow
lacking in my ability. I already feel that hugely and it is in the back of my
mind when I'm in these times of doing less and not more.
What DOES help is kindness, him offering to vacuum or make dinner and do the
dishes one night, or something else extra that he doesn't normally do. Just a
few of those little extra things gives me just a little space to breath and
think and relax enough to let my brain come up with cool and fun things to do
and helps me to see beyond the dishes and laundry.
I don't think anyone likes to live in dishes and laundry land. While it can be
complacent and calm to do those things, it isn't toward the big and fun learning
that makes unschooling so awesome. It's those other things that make
unschooling big and fun and awesome, the extra thing that someone brings up and
out that gets looked at and under and in between that leads to more and more and
more. It really takes looking away from clutter and mess and laundry and dishes
for a bit to focus on something else.
It can start with something small, just one little thing to grab onto. Maybe
it's bird watching or star gazing or planting a flower or making a cootie
catcher. That one seemingly insignificant thing can turn into something really
cool. It can inspire a multitude of projects and ideas, but ONLY if the parents
and adults in the kid's lives see it and encourage it. Sometimes kids will do
stuff on their own, and more and more so as they get older and know how to, but
when they are younger, these are the things they need to see their parents do
with and for them. It's these things that make unschooling what it is, how
learning happens and connections are made.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
easily forgets all those home-based things are options from one week to the
next, and I don't want to nag.***
I get in slumps here and there were life isn't as sparkly as it could be, where
we seem to barely do anything beyond eat and sleep and make sure dishes and
laundry are clean. It isn't the ideal way to unschool and I know that keenly.
I wouldn't want my partner to reinforce the idea that I'm not really doing this
thing right, that I'm not doing as much as I could do, or that I'm somehow
lacking in my ability. I already feel that hugely and it is in the back of my
mind when I'm in these times of doing less and not more.
What DOES help is kindness, him offering to vacuum or make dinner and do the
dishes one night, or something else extra that he doesn't normally do. Just a
few of those little extra things gives me just a little space to breath and
think and relax enough to let my brain come up with cool and fun things to do
and helps me to see beyond the dishes and laundry.
I don't think anyone likes to live in dishes and laundry land. While it can be
complacent and calm to do those things, it isn't toward the big and fun learning
that makes unschooling so awesome. It's those other things that make
unschooling big and fun and awesome, the extra thing that someone brings up and
out that gets looked at and under and in between that leads to more and more and
more. It really takes looking away from clutter and mess and laundry and dishes
for a bit to focus on something else.
It can start with something small, just one little thing to grab onto. Maybe
it's bird watching or star gazing or planting a flower or making a cootie
catcher. That one seemingly insignificant thing can turn into something really
cool. It can inspire a multitude of projects and ideas, but ONLY if the parents
and adults in the kid's lives see it and encourage it. Sometimes kids will do
stuff on their own, and more and more so as they get older and know how to, but
when they are younger, these are the things they need to see their parents do
with and for them. It's these things that make unschooling what it is, how
learning happens and connections are made.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
plaidpanties666
"aswampyankee" <yankeeswamp@...> wrote:
I went back into the workforce a few years ago after my partner suffered a work-related injury and couldn't work at all for a time, and couldn't return to his previous line of work even after he recovered. Mo was 6, and would have rather been home with her mom than her dad. She and George have a really sweet relationship, but she wanted me, not him. I'm her mom, he's just her dad. She's now 9, and in the past six months or so there's been a noticable change in their relationship. She's still happy to see me when I'm home, and was really pleased when I had a week of temporary lay-off this winter, but something's different. She's becomming more "daddy's girl" than "mama's girl" it seems.
That won't be the same with all kids, but it surprised me - with my school past and schoolish expectations - that a 6yo would care so much about which parent was at home with her. We're not interchangable.
---Meredith
>> My son is 8, and I am having trouble wrapping my brain around the idea that my husband (his father) does not have as much facility or duty to be with him as I do. Please help me understand.******************
I went back into the workforce a few years ago after my partner suffered a work-related injury and couldn't work at all for a time, and couldn't return to his previous line of work even after he recovered. Mo was 6, and would have rather been home with her mom than her dad. She and George have a really sweet relationship, but she wanted me, not him. I'm her mom, he's just her dad. She's now 9, and in the past six months or so there's been a noticable change in their relationship. She's still happy to see me when I'm home, and was really pleased when I had a week of temporary lay-off this winter, but something's different. She's becomming more "daddy's girl" than "mama's girl" it seems.
That won't be the same with all kids, but it surprised me - with my school past and schoolish expectations - that a 6yo would care so much about which parent was at home with her. We're not interchangable.
---Meredith
Sandra Dodd
-=I get in slumps here and there were life isn't as sparkly as it could be, where
we seem to barely do anything beyond eat and sleep and make sure dishes and
laundry are clean. It isn't the ideal way to unschool and I know that keenly. -=-
I think 180 days of unschooling worth bragging about is enough. The other 185 days can represent weekends, breaks and summer vacation.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
we seem to barely do anything beyond eat and sleep and make sure dishes and
laundry are clean. It isn't the ideal way to unschool and I know that keenly. -=-
I think 180 days of unschooling worth bragging about is enough. The other 185 days can represent weekends, breaks and summer vacation.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
On 4/1/2011 6:29 AM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
this, she isn't saying you can or should make it happen, but that that
is what HE needs to do. In fact, you're more likely to prevent him from
doing it, imo, if you think you can make him. In a good relationship, a
spouse can ask the other spouse, "When you said, 'blah blah blah,' was
that something your parents said when you were a kid?" and the other
spouse might consider it and become more aware and even decide he/she
doesn't want to repeat it. But in a relationship that is already off
kilter, that might come across as a put-down -- might be heard as
"You're just repeating things from your childhood - you bad parent,
you." And the other spouse might become defensive and dig in his/her
heels and not even be wiling to think about it or even do it more to
prove a point (that you can't MAKE him change).
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >>He needs to look at his childhood as something he does NOT want toI think there is a misunderstanding - when Sandra says that he "needs"
> repeat, and make choices that provide better situations.
> He should not use it as an excuse to be the same way.<<<<<<<<
>
> -=-Please also suggests ways to make this happen. If it is not an
> unschooling
> question please ignore.-=-
this, she isn't saying you can or should make it happen, but that that
is what HE needs to do. In fact, you're more likely to prevent him from
doing it, imo, if you think you can make him. In a good relationship, a
spouse can ask the other spouse, "When you said, 'blah blah blah,' was
that something your parents said when you were a kid?" and the other
spouse might consider it and become more aware and even decide he/she
doesn't want to repeat it. But in a relationship that is already off
kilter, that might come across as a put-down -- might be heard as
"You're just repeating things from your childhood - you bad parent,
you." And the other spouse might become defensive and dig in his/her
heels and not even be wiling to think about it or even do it more to
prove a point (that you can't MAKE him change).
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
> in some ways I think he resents having to pick up something he didn'tHe sounds just generally resentful. I think it is super super hard for
> create.-=-
most men to not be the primary breadwinner in a family and that is
especially true when they have a youngish family. I bet that a lot of
this is related to that -- decluttering is considered a very menial task
(in most people's minds). I would bet that he feels diminished and less
manly because he's "stuck" at home with children, expected to clean up
after them, and all that stuff. It may be his own choice, for other
reasons, but I just think it is a rare man who can overcome his
socialization to feel, deeply, that a real man brings home the bacon.
He may not like working for someone else, but that doesn't mean he is
comfortable not making enough money working for himself to let you be
the at-home parent.
Also - if you come home from work and take over the home stuff too,
doing it effectively and efficiently, get the kids to all their
scheduled activities and clean house and handle food needs and laundry
and all that, then he can't even feel like he's good at that.
Seems like a set-up for resentment to build on both sides. Seems like as
set-up for there to be sides.
-pam
Andrea Catalano
A couple of quick thoughts-- Can one if the grandmas come over daily to help put the kids toys/clutter away? Even an hour of focused clutter removal daily can make a huge difference. I once had a "mother's helper" (another option) who would come a couple of times a week. She would play with the kids while I cleaned or clean while I played with the kids -- whichever suited the kids better on any given day. It was great and soo very helpful in managing the mess. I, too, can get overwhelmed by daily mess and spending time putting stuff away only to find it all back out again can be disheartening. Having someone other than your husband doing at least some if it regularly may make it easier for him to tolerate.
We had a long, cold winter here too. My son is very cold-hearty but my daughter (and I) are not. Around February, my daughter started refusing to go out. Being in the cold became intolerable for her even for short periods. I worked really hard to make home more fun for both kids. I got lots of movies, books and interesting and novel art materials and projects. I ordered from science catalogs. We made various slimy concoctions for them to play with. We got interesting fruits at the market. I got magazine subscriptions for them. I always had something new and interesting to pull out when we were heading to the doldrums. The days and weeks passed much more happily with so many new and interesting things to explore. It helped all of us live more happily together as we waited for the harsh cold to break.
andrea
Sent from my iPhone
We had a long, cold winter here too. My son is very cold-hearty but my daughter (and I) are not. Around February, my daughter started refusing to go out. Being in the cold became intolerable for her even for short periods. I worked really hard to make home more fun for both kids. I got lots of movies, books and interesting and novel art materials and projects. I ordered from science catalogs. We made various slimy concoctions for them to play with. We got interesting fruits at the market. I got magazine subscriptions for them. I always had something new and interesting to pull out when we were heading to the doldrums. The days and weeks passed much more happily with so many new and interesting things to explore. It helped all of us live more happily together as we waited for the harsh cold to break.
andrea
Sent from my iPhone
dola dasgupta-banerji
>>>>>>>>>>FIND competence and value and knowledge in a child, a friend, aspouse. Find it and nurture it.<<<<<<<<<
Thank you immensely for this one. I was actually trying to say that mutual
dependency has to be realised. I would like to add that one needs to FIND
all this in oneself also and nurture it.
Dola
On Fri, Apr 1, 2011 at 6:49 PM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
>
> -=-Actually there is nothing to wrap. This is like one of those TRUTHS. One
> just got to accept-=-
>
> I disagree with this.
> There are thousands of things people hold as truths (or Truths or TRUTHS)
> that others see as nonsense. No one has to accept anything. No one should do
> anything that doesn't make sense to them (or believe or repeat anything that
> doesn't make sense to them).
>
> -=-My husband is good at taking leads from me. But I have to give the lead.
>
> Otherwise he is lost...I have hated him for being incompetent in the past,
> because of the MYTH in MY HEAD. And he has hated me for NOT making things
> CLEAR to him. But the truth is that HE NEEDS TO KNOW. Once he knows then it
> is workable, I am not saying a cakewalk still.....-=-
>
> If this were the other way around, how would it sound?
> _____________________
>
> My wife is good at taking leads from me. But I have to give the lead.
> Otherwise she is lost...I have hated her for being incompetent in the past,
> because of the MYTH in MY HEAD. And she has hated me for NOT making things
> CLEAR to her. But the truth is that SHE NEEDS TO KNOW. Once she knows then
> it
>
> is workable, I am not saying a cakewalk still.....
> _____________________
>
> "Knowing" and "truth" and "lead" shouldn't be unilateral in any dyad.
> People aren't working together or being partners if one is the dictator and
> the other is the hated incompetent.
>
> FIND competence and value and knowledge in a child, a friend, a spouse.
> Find it and nurture it.
>
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
dola dasgupta-banerji
>>>>>>>>>when Sandra says that he "needs"this, she isn't saying you can or should make it happen, but that that
is what HE needs to do. In fact, you're more likely to prevent him from
doing it, imo, if you think you can make him.<<<<<<<<
Yes, Pam, this needed to be clarified. That is why I asked the question.
Dola
On Sat, Apr 2, 2011 at 5:29 AM, Pam Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...>wrote:
>
>
> On 4/1/2011 6:29 AM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
> > >>He needs to look at his childhood as something he does NOT want to
> > repeat, and make choices that provide better situations.
> > He should not use it as an excuse to be the same way.<<<<<<<<
> >
> > -=-Please also suggests ways to make this happen. If it is not an
> > unschooling
> > question please ignore.-=-
>
> I think there is a misunderstanding - when Sandra says that he "needs"
> this, she isn't saying you can or should make it happen, but that that
> is what HE needs to do. In fact, you're more likely to prevent him from
> doing it, imo, if you think you can make him. In a good relationship, a
> spouse can ask the other spouse, "When you said, 'blah blah blah,' was
> that something your parents said when you were a kid?" and the other
> spouse might consider it and become more aware and even decide he/she
> doesn't want to repeat it. But in a relationship that is already off
> kilter, that might come across as a put-down -- might be heard as
> "You're just repeating things from your childhood - you bad parent,
> you." And the other spouse might become defensive and dig in his/her
> heels and not even be wiling to think about it or even do it more to
> prove a point (that you can't MAKE him change).
>
> -pam
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sylvia
If one's childhood is an issue, then recovery to the extent of using it to inform one's decisions now, with children, is important. TOTAL and complete "recovery" from childhood hurts isn't necessary; probably isn't even possible.
****
This has been true for me. If my kids had to wait for me to be totally recovered from my childhood they'd never get the Mom I want for them.
Instead of starting out to heal myself, I simply wanted my children to be happier than I had been. It started in small steps. If I got advice about how to handle a situation or behavior, and the method resulted in a miserable kid (and a miserable me as well) then I looked for another way. It just never felt right to keep doing anything to my children that made them unhappy. Day by day, one situation at a time, I just responded as in the most loving manner I could. I learned to ignore all the voices telling me what I had to do my child to get him to 'behave.'
As time went on, I found I was feeling more whole, less frustrated, less sad at my own childhood. The healing came in giving my children what made them happy. My peace and progress have come as a by-product of seeking peace and happiness for my children, not as something I ever specifically sought. I didn't really expect to feel as peaceful as I now do about my childhood. I can talk about my mother without anger (I still can't talk TO her, but I don't want to) or judgment or any need to 'show her'. I can talk about my and to my Dad, without my heart breaking and feeling unloved. It was a wonderful surprise to me to find peace instead of anger mixed in with the sadness at my childhood.
Can you find ways to help your husband have more peaceful time with the family? What can you do to make it easier for him to enjoy the kids, and for the kids to enjoy time with their Dad? How can you remove obstacles to them having fun together? To support them all in their relationship? Maybe you could think of it as a gift to the little boy he was; the one who was spanked and had his ear pulled?
Too often, Moms show up here wanting to know how they can protect their kids from the punitive husband. While people are quick to assume positive intent in our kids, often the same courtesy isn't extended to spouses. Just like a child's behavior indicates an unmet need the same is usually true for adults.
Sylvia
****
This has been true for me. If my kids had to wait for me to be totally recovered from my childhood they'd never get the Mom I want for them.
Instead of starting out to heal myself, I simply wanted my children to be happier than I had been. It started in small steps. If I got advice about how to handle a situation or behavior, and the method resulted in a miserable kid (and a miserable me as well) then I looked for another way. It just never felt right to keep doing anything to my children that made them unhappy. Day by day, one situation at a time, I just responded as in the most loving manner I could. I learned to ignore all the voices telling me what I had to do my child to get him to 'behave.'
As time went on, I found I was feeling more whole, less frustrated, less sad at my own childhood. The healing came in giving my children what made them happy. My peace and progress have come as a by-product of seeking peace and happiness for my children, not as something I ever specifically sought. I didn't really expect to feel as peaceful as I now do about my childhood. I can talk about my mother without anger (I still can't talk TO her, but I don't want to) or judgment or any need to 'show her'. I can talk about my and to my Dad, without my heart breaking and feeling unloved. It was a wonderful surprise to me to find peace instead of anger mixed in with the sadness at my childhood.
Can you find ways to help your husband have more peaceful time with the family? What can you do to make it easier for him to enjoy the kids, and for the kids to enjoy time with their Dad? How can you remove obstacles to them having fun together? To support them all in their relationship? Maybe you could think of it as a gift to the little boy he was; the one who was spanked and had his ear pulled?
Too often, Moms show up here wanting to know how they can protect their kids from the punitive husband. While people are quick to assume positive intent in our kids, often the same courtesy isn't extended to spouses. Just like a child's behavior indicates an unmet need the same is usually true for adults.
Sylvia
Sandra Dodd
-=-As time went on, I found I was feeling more whole, less frustrated, less sad at my own childhood. The healing came in giving my children what made them happy. My peace and progress have come as a by-product of seeking peace and happiness for my children, not as something I ever specifically sought.-=-
Me, too. I was attending al-Anon meetings (Adult Children of Alcoholics) when I had Kirby, so I was aware that there was healing to be had from being nice to him while thinking of me as a baby. I didn't think way ahead to the healing to be had from being nice to a five year old (thinking of the five year old me) and ten, and fifteen. Every stage, as I've reviewed my own memories and made decisions to repeat good things and avoid bad things, from my childhood, it has been healing for my soul and my "inner child."
-=-Too often, Moms show up here wanting to know how they can protect their kids from the punitive husband. While people are quick to assume positive intent in our kids, often the same courtesy isn't extended to spouses. Just like a child's behavior indicates an unmet need the same is usually true for adults. -=-
Very often.
And inside ever dad is a little boy who might not have gotten enough gentle attention, who could easily be jealous (without being overtly aware of it) that his children get more attention. It's not too late to pay gentle, nurturing attention to him!
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Me, too. I was attending al-Anon meetings (Adult Children of Alcoholics) when I had Kirby, so I was aware that there was healing to be had from being nice to him while thinking of me as a baby. I didn't think way ahead to the healing to be had from being nice to a five year old (thinking of the five year old me) and ten, and fifteen. Every stage, as I've reviewed my own memories and made decisions to repeat good things and avoid bad things, from my childhood, it has been healing for my soul and my "inner child."
-=-Too often, Moms show up here wanting to know how they can protect their kids from the punitive husband. While people are quick to assume positive intent in our kids, often the same courtesy isn't extended to spouses. Just like a child's behavior indicates an unmet need the same is usually true for adults. -=-
Very often.
And inside ever dad is a little boy who might not have gotten enough gentle attention, who could easily be jealous (without being overtly aware of it) that his children get more attention. It's not too late to pay gentle, nurturing attention to him!
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
katelovessunshine
>the fact that he suffered a brain injury 8 years ago that has caused a decreased ability to tolerate things he might have easily tolerated prior to the accident.What you describe is typical for people with TBI.
>
My husband had a serious accident with traumatic brain injury. As life would have it, I do some work that involves people with TBI.
TBIs don't ever recover. The injured brain material is gone, there is a whole in the brain. The brain does compensate and there are strategies to deal with the results. The hardest part is sometimes he is his old self, then he isn't. He seems to understand, sometimes he does, sometimes he doesn't. It's unpredictable.
One of our strategies: we deal with most everything as a family. When the kids were little, we put on the Barney "clean-up" song or the Snow White "whistle while you work" and cleaned the house together. Now as teens, they like living in a clean house & contribute to maintenance without prompting.
Dealing with a spouse with TBI doesn't compare with other people's spousal issues. It is complicated for medical reasons. They may or may not realize what they've said on a variety of levels depending on the part of the brain that was injured, even though they seem okay most of the time.
Kate