supporting finding alternatives
Lisa
in another post, Meredith said
*** =+= George, my partner, needed a lot of support when Ray was younger, in terms finding alternatives to put-downs. =+= ***
What would this look like? How do you support a grown man who may not think there's anything wrong with teasing and put downs find alternatives?
If you don't have a specific example, one springs to mind for me.
My son's friend, a 9 year old girl, was recently leaving our house and instead of saying good-bye, my husband said "don't let the door hit you in the butt on the way out". I think he was trying to say it in a friendly way, but to me, there's nothing friendly about that. To me it sounds like "we sure are glad you are leaving".
My husband doesn't like this girl a whole lot because she doesn't listen to her mother or to him. She listens to me, so I don't have a problem with her at all.
He likes her to come over and play with our son, because our son loves her, but he complains about her anyway.
Another thing he did was imitate my friend at a fourth of july party because she runs a little funny.
These things break my heart, and I am afraid that Sandra will say these don't apply to unschooling but I really need help with them because they are hurting my relationship with my husband and that hurts the family and our son.
thank you, Lisa
*** =+= George, my partner, needed a lot of support when Ray was younger, in terms finding alternatives to put-downs. =+= ***
What would this look like? How do you support a grown man who may not think there's anything wrong with teasing and put downs find alternatives?
If you don't have a specific example, one springs to mind for me.
My son's friend, a 9 year old girl, was recently leaving our house and instead of saying good-bye, my husband said "don't let the door hit you in the butt on the way out". I think he was trying to say it in a friendly way, but to me, there's nothing friendly about that. To me it sounds like "we sure are glad you are leaving".
My husband doesn't like this girl a whole lot because she doesn't listen to her mother or to him. She listens to me, so I don't have a problem with her at all.
He likes her to come over and play with our son, because our son loves her, but he complains about her anyway.
Another thing he did was imitate my friend at a fourth of july party because she runs a little funny.
These things break my heart, and I am afraid that Sandra will say these don't apply to unschooling but I really need help with them because they are hurting my relationship with my husband and that hurts the family and our son.
thank you, Lisa
Sandra Dodd
-=-
My son's friend, a 9 year old girl, was recently leaving our house and instead of saying good-bye, my husband said "don't let the door hit you in the butt on the way out". I think he was trying to say it in a friendly way, but to me, there's nothing friendly about that. To me it sounds like "we sure are glad you are leaving".-=-
I would ask him if people used to say that to him when he was little.
I'm guessing yes.
It's NEVER friendly. It's always "good riddance" (another phrase that doesn't exist except as an idiom over 100 years old (probably much older).
These might help you to find a way to bring it up in conversation.
http://sandradodd.com/phrases
http://sandradodd.com/negativity
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
My son's friend, a 9 year old girl, was recently leaving our house and instead of saying good-bye, my husband said "don't let the door hit you in the butt on the way out". I think he was trying to say it in a friendly way, but to me, there's nothing friendly about that. To me it sounds like "we sure are glad you are leaving".-=-
I would ask him if people used to say that to him when he was little.
I'm guessing yes.
It's NEVER friendly. It's always "good riddance" (another phrase that doesn't exist except as an idiom over 100 years old (probably much older).
These might help you to find a way to bring it up in conversation.
http://sandradodd.com/phrases
http://sandradodd.com/negativity
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
***My husband doesn't like this girl a whole lot because she doesn't listen to
her mother or to him. She listens to me, so I don't have a problem with her at
all.***
I would have a problem with a child that didn't listen to my husband. This is
his home too after all and he does get a say in what goes on in it. He was very
tough on the teen boys that came over here at first. I thought it was too
tough, but I never grew up with boys, he did and I left it to his judgement on
what he felt acceptable boundaries to lay down from the beginning. He was very
firm with them and then as they got to know each other he relaxed a bit, but
would refer back to certain expectations on occasion. The biggest issue was
rough housing in the house. He was very clear about taking it outside. He was
right to do so, even though, in the moment, *I* felt it was harsh.
I really don't like most of the neighbor kids here. Sometimes I feel like
saying that too, "don't let the door hit you on the way out!" I still allow
them to come over and play. In defense of her younger sister, my oldest HAS
said harsh things to the neighbor kids. I've been grateful for that at times.
I tend to be extra nice to everyone that comes over. Kids who are used to
nagging parents or parents who speak harshly, simply don't listen to me
sometimes. I've seen her get right up into a kid's face and tell them to knock
it off, or something to that effect. She does it in such a way that they listen
to her and stop what they are doing. Sometimes *I* think it sounds mean, but
they behave wonderfully when she's around.
Perhaps that little neighbor girl *should* be more respectful and listen to your
husband. If that little girl listens to you, then you should tell her to listen
to your husband. If he felt more respect from you enforcing it with neighbor
kids, perhaps he would be more respectful of that little girl.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
her mother or to him. She listens to me, so I don't have a problem with her at
all.***
I would have a problem with a child that didn't listen to my husband. This is
his home too after all and he does get a say in what goes on in it. He was very
tough on the teen boys that came over here at first. I thought it was too
tough, but I never grew up with boys, he did and I left it to his judgement on
what he felt acceptable boundaries to lay down from the beginning. He was very
firm with them and then as they got to know each other he relaxed a bit, but
would refer back to certain expectations on occasion. The biggest issue was
rough housing in the house. He was very clear about taking it outside. He was
right to do so, even though, in the moment, *I* felt it was harsh.
I really don't like most of the neighbor kids here. Sometimes I feel like
saying that too, "don't let the door hit you on the way out!" I still allow
them to come over and play. In defense of her younger sister, my oldest HAS
said harsh things to the neighbor kids. I've been grateful for that at times.
I tend to be extra nice to everyone that comes over. Kids who are used to
nagging parents or parents who speak harshly, simply don't listen to me
sometimes. I've seen her get right up into a kid's face and tell them to knock
it off, or something to that effect. She does it in such a way that they listen
to her and stop what they are doing. Sometimes *I* think it sounds mean, but
they behave wonderfully when she's around.
Perhaps that little neighbor girl *should* be more respectful and listen to your
husband. If that little girl listens to you, then you should tell her to listen
to your husband. If he felt more respect from you enforcing it with neighbor
kids, perhaps he would be more respectful of that little girl.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Perhaps that little neighbor girl *should* be more respectful and listen to your
husband. If that little girl listens to you, then you should tell her to listen
to your husband. If he felt more respect from you enforcing it with neighbor
kids, perhaps he would be more respectful of that little girl.-=-
I agree she should listen to him, but if he's the kind of guy who says things without a full awareness of what he's saying and why, it's possible he's not as worthy of attention as the mom is. There are some people who natter on in a bullshit/"humor" way and don't really say anything at all. I had a brother-in-law who would say about 80% of the time, when I called, "Do I know you?" It didn't matter to him that I was never amused by it, or that he had said it about 75 times. He was less worth talking to than people who were actually talking to me, rather than just working off some default script they had.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
husband. If that little girl listens to you, then you should tell her to listen
to your husband. If he felt more respect from you enforcing it with neighbor
kids, perhaps he would be more respectful of that little girl.-=-
I agree she should listen to him, but if he's the kind of guy who says things without a full awareness of what he's saying and why, it's possible he's not as worthy of attention as the mom is. There are some people who natter on in a bullshit/"humor" way and don't really say anything at all. I had a brother-in-law who would say about 80% of the time, when I called, "Do I know you?" It didn't matter to him that I was never amused by it, or that he had said it about 75 times. He was less worth talking to than people who were actually talking to me, rather than just working off some default script they had.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
plaidpanties666
"Lisa" <lisa@...> wrote:
There were occasions when I pointed out that George had just hurt someone's feelings, but only occasions. In the case of a guest George didn't like, I'd work on having that guest over when he wasn't around or going over visit rather than inviting him or her over.
You can store up little things, add them all in your head and use them to decide your husband is an asshole... and then where are you? It won't help your relationship, won't help your husband ever be anything *but* an asshole, especially if you are snippy and disapproving in response.
But if you start with an assumption of positive intent, you get to a different picture of your husband. What could be the positive intent of being a jerk? To protect himself. To protect the hurt little boy inside. Start seeing the hurt little boy, lashing out to stave off more of lifes slings and arrows.
You start by giving him a reason to value a different set of choices, and that includes honoring his thoughts and feelings. Chances are, he's pretty intimidated by the idea of unschooling: it's *weird*, it's *not* what others in his social circle are doing, and if his children - His Children! - aren't measuring up to what he thinks of as reasonable that's scary! So part of supporting him means easing him along as gently as you can. For him to Be softer, he needs to know that softness isn't going to get him hurt - that will help him trust that its not going to get his children hurt, too! That's bound to be one of his fears, that all this lovey-dovey stuff is going to make his kids unfit for real life.
If you can get him connected with other dads who value gentler parenting (even a little gentler!) that will help. Its excruciatingly hard for men to step away from their defenses even with support - its close to impossible when there are No other men around who are trying to be gentler people.
---Meredith
>>my husband said "don't let the door hit you in the butt on the way out". I think he was trying to say it in a friendly way, but to me, there's nothing friendly about that.*****************
There were occasions when I pointed out that George had just hurt someone's feelings, but only occasions. In the case of a guest George didn't like, I'd work on having that guest over when he wasn't around or going over visit rather than inviting him or her over.
> Another thing he did was imitate my friend at a fourth of july party because she runs a little funny.*************
You can store up little things, add them all in your head and use them to decide your husband is an asshole... and then where are you? It won't help your relationship, won't help your husband ever be anything *but* an asshole, especially if you are snippy and disapproving in response.
But if you start with an assumption of positive intent, you get to a different picture of your husband. What could be the positive intent of being a jerk? To protect himself. To protect the hurt little boy inside. Start seeing the hurt little boy, lashing out to stave off more of lifes slings and arrows.
> These things break my heartIf getting your heart broken helps to motivate you to do good, then let your heart break For Your Husband. Be warm and soft and giving enough to let him have a sense of safety - to know that its okay to be vulnerable, to be wrong, to be out of his element in your company. If he doesn't have that sense of safety, he's unlikely to drop his favorite defense mechanism.
>>How do you support a grown man who may not think there's anything wrong with teasing and put downs find alternatives?***************
You start by giving him a reason to value a different set of choices, and that includes honoring his thoughts and feelings. Chances are, he's pretty intimidated by the idea of unschooling: it's *weird*, it's *not* what others in his social circle are doing, and if his children - His Children! - aren't measuring up to what he thinks of as reasonable that's scary! So part of supporting him means easing him along as gently as you can. For him to Be softer, he needs to know that softness isn't going to get him hurt - that will help him trust that its not going to get his children hurt, too! That's bound to be one of his fears, that all this lovey-dovey stuff is going to make his kids unfit for real life.
If you can get him connected with other dads who value gentler parenting (even a little gentler!) that will help. Its excruciatingly hard for men to step away from their defenses even with support - its close to impossible when there are No other men around who are trying to be gentler people.
---Meredith
shirarocklin
A friend was over today. She is having difficulty with her 2.5 year old. A lot of it, from my current perspective (having already gone through that stage once, and also unschooling for a while now), were easy things to change. But tentative asking led me to the conclusion that she isn't really too interested in hearing about unschooling, so I mostly just listened to her and gave a little bit of advice. Anyhow, I brought up how its difficult to not react with strong emotions to some of the ways that toddlers can act. I remember reading something, but I can't remember what, that led me to be able to remember that my kid wasn't trying to make me feel horrible or angry or frustrated - she was just being a kid. It helped me to take responsibility for my own emotions, and let me respond to my child's needs. It led me not to be completely devoid of emotion or frustration (which I hear sometimes from conventional parents trying to be 'good' - being unemotional in negative/difficult situations), but to... I don't know how to describe it. Maybe its being emotionally honest with myself and my kids. Not letting my emotions get the better of me, and also letting them know when I am feeling discomfort, anger, frustration, at what they are doing, if it is causing problems for other people (including me sometimes).
So, I was wondering if Joyce or Sandra have written about this, so that I could send my friend a link. She seemed interested in hearing about how to not become so upset at what her daughter does, because she knows that her daughter is just doing what is normal.
Thanks,
Shira
So, I was wondering if Joyce or Sandra have written about this, so that I could send my friend a link. She seemed interested in hearing about how to not become so upset at what her daughter does, because she knows that her daughter is just doing what is normal.
Thanks,
Shira
Joyce Fetteroll
On Apr 4, 2011, at 6:08 PM, shirarocklin wrote:
in his Daily Groove.
http://www.enjoyparenting.com/dailygroove
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> She seemed interested in hearing about how to not become so upset atThat's a theme that runs through a lot of what Scott Noelle sends out
> what her daughter does, because she knows that her daughter is just
> doing what is normal.
in his Daily Groove.
http://www.enjoyparenting.com/dailygroove
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
plaidpanties666
Naomi Aldort has a website that includes articles such as this one "Surviving the Toddler Years" that mentions separating one's feelings from the behavior of one's children:
http://www.naomialdort.com/articles8.html
---Meredith
http://www.naomialdort.com/articles8.html
---Meredith