Claire Darbaud

Hello,

Thank you so much for this great list. It's such an amazing source of
inspiration. I've been reading and reading and reading and it feels like
things are profoundly changing in the way I see life. It almost feels like
my brain is being re-wired, which is a little painfull and a little scary.
But it feels soooo right!

I am Claire, in France, I live near Geneva with my husband and our 2
children, ds is 7 and dd is 5. We started homeschooling a couple of months
ago and it is dawning on me that using a curriculum will just not work in
our house. I totally, absolutely hate to be the person who is boring my kids
with trying to force-teach them anything... So we're moving into
unschooling. I'm reading a lot, experimenting a bit, sleeping on it...
(repeat). I have dropped the curriculum and we're mostly just enjoying the
"vacation". I have started to say yes more... yes you can watch another
movie, yes you can have only breakfast cereals for dinner, yes you can eat
candy just before dinner, yes you can skip dinner altogether, yes you can
play some more video games... Go ahead darling, with a smile :-) It feels
good to do so and the kids are loving it!

I do have some questions though, it feels like 3 or 4 sort of separate
questions. I wonder if I should make a separate post with each questions...
excuse my inexperience with posting to this list (and feel free to slice my
post into several if that's better)

My biggest one is... I find it hard to create a nice working, respectful
partnering relationship with my husband. He sort of agreed to let me
homeschool the kids, It was not his first choice. Dropping the curriculum is
not what we had kind of agreed on. I really need to talk about it with him,
but I so don't know where to start... he mostly speaks french and malagasy
and there is very little material available... Moreover, I seem to
constantly find myself in a power struggle. The "standard" scenario is
something like what happened last night: ds wants more milk in his cereal.
Dh says that he is concerned ds will spoil the extra milk because there is
already a lot, ds looks at me... I tell him something like "daddy would like
you to take small chunks of milk and he's happy to give you more if you want
more, He's worried if you take more then you can drink it will be
spoiled". Dh gives ds the milk along with menaces like "if you don't drink
it all I'll pull your ears", I try not to say anything, my son is watching
me with "please mom, rescue me" look. I feel nervous and don't know what to
do. Ds eats most of his cereals and then starts to fidget on his chair. He
looks worried, maybe scared. He's looking at me for help. My anxiety level
rises (not to mention ds is recovering from meazles and he's been throwing
up a lot lately, I really feel concerned his stomac won't take the extra
milk if he forces it in because he's scared of dad). In a little voice, ds
says "my tummy aches", I can't help but tell him "don't make yourself sick
with drinking the milk if you're full". Ds leaves the milk, gets up and
around the table and comes to me with bowed head, asking for a hug. I give
him one. Dh gives me a dark look... I can tell he feels I've sided with my
son against him. AGAIN. That's so not what I wanted, I so don't know how to
handle situations like this. Yet it happens rather often. My husband is a
little rough with the kids, they rush to me asking for help, I feel helpless
and frustrated, stuck between a rock and a hard place. I tried "siding" with
my husband a few times, but it feels so totally not me inside, I think the
kids can tell I don't mean it... Dh says he has no problem with the kids
when I am not around. I totally believe him... Yet I do feel he doesn't
realise the kids are really scared of him... They tell me they are, and I
try to tell him as gently as I can, but he says I am making it up, and it's
all my fault because I always say yes to everything... I feel confused...
Any hints? Experiences? Books?

That brings me to... guilt. Something in me feels this way of life is just
way to good to be true.... and must be at somebody's expense. Namely my
husband. Intellectually I totally believe that guiding children though their
childhood is the most important job there is (or do I?). Yet I can't help
but feel like I am not contributing to the economy (but is that a bad
thing?) and that somebody has to pay for my fun life... It almost feels
artificial. Life as a lifelong holiday. And yet, could it be the rest of the
world, the "schoolers" who have it upside down? But then our lifestyle has a
cost and someone has to pick up the bills... I feel very
puzzled/confused/lost around that one. Have some of you been there? Is it
part of the regular deschooling brain rewiring? Dos the guilt go eventually?

And then there is the anxiety I tend to feel when I am around my kid, tring
to give them my full attention. As much as I hate to admit it, I must say I
have not spent much time with my kids since they were born. Physically I am
here allright (I've been a stay at home mum since I got pregnant with dd),
but most of the time I am just "fleeing" from them. Mostly reading books or
surfing the internet or seeking for adult company anywhere I can find it.
Part of it has been amazing, transformative and all. If not for books and
the internet, I wouldn't have found out about attachement parenting,
unschooling and tons of other amazingly good stuff that has transformed our
life for the better. And yet, the time I spend online or reading books or
desperately seeking adult company feels like trying to escape. When I try to
fight the anxiety It builds up. I feel bored to death, I get grumpy and it
escalates... untill I can escape and let some steam out. I don't know what
it is. I suspect part of it has to do with the previous 2 questions.... Part
of it probably has to do with how I was raised. I know there is something
else there. I tried focusing on that (as in "inner relationship focusing"
http://www.focusingresources.com/) but with little success to this day. Any
idea? I read all your posts and feel like I am such a selfish mum... When I
read you it almost feels like unschooling can only work for selfless saints
like you guys. And yet you don't really sound like selfless saint either...
What am I missing?

And finaly the easy one: cola. I've stopped limiting how much cola ds
drinks. He had 3 litres in 2 days. That feels like a LOT. My niece (who is
now 25) is a total coca cola addict. She will not go anywhere without a 1.5
liter coca cola bottle, or at the very least a couple of cans in her
handbag. I can't help but feel it's not good for her health and feel
concerned. My sister restricted how much cola she could have when she was a
child by hardly buying any. I did that too until last week. I hardly bought
any, but when there was coke around, I would let him drink some. Most of my
friends believe coca cola is addictive like a drug. If they're right,
letting my son drink as much as he wants will not help... How long should I
expect the coke frenzy to last (I appreciate 2 days is not enough for him to
feel relax that he can have some whenever he wants)? How do your kids handle
soda in general and coke in particular?

This post is getting way too long, sorry...

Warmly
Claire


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Sandra Dodd

-=-When I
read you it almost feels like unschooling can only work for selfless saints
like you guys. And yet you don't really sound like selfless saint either...
What am I missing?-=-

If you define being with children happily as being "a selfless saint," it almost sounds like an insult. It seems to me it's words getting in between you and your children. Labels. What you are when you're with them, what you are when you're not with them, what you feel like you're not when you read about other unschoolers.

TOO MANY WORDS.

Too many words in your post, too. You might not get good responses because it's too long.

On the other hand, even a few responses might help you figure out the whole thing.

You're talking all about you and your feelings, and about us and your feelings about us.

-=-How long should I
expect the coke frenzy to last (I appreciate 2 days is not enough for him to
feel relax that he can have some whenever he wants)? How do your kids handle
soda in general and coke in particular?-=-

Forever, if you think of it as a frenzy.
Indefinitely, if you go back and forth between limit and allow, limit and allow.

Stop measuring the litres. Stop counting the days.

It will last longer than you wish it would, but will only relax AFTER you relax. Not after you pretend to relax, or talk about being relaxed, but after you are honestly, truly, calmly not counting anymore, and not measuring anymore, and haven't been for a while.

Sandra

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plaidpanties666

Claire Darbaud <cdarbaud@...> wrote:
>> And finaly the easy one: cola. I've stopped limiting how much cola ds
> drinks. He had 3 litres in 2 days. That feels like a LOT.

He's been sick? The bubbles could actually be settling his stomach. But besides that, a couple days isn't enough for him to know that you're not going to pull the plug on the cola. It takes time to build that kind of trust.

>The "standard" scenario is
> something like what happened last night: ds wants more milk in his cereal.
> Dh says that he is concerned ds will spoil the extra milk because there is
> already a lot

It can help to look for alternatives that aren't about "sides" but about helping people get what they need. Dad is worried about wasting milk. Your son wants his cereal nice and moist. Can you get some differently shaped bowls that let the milk rise up over the cereal better? Alternately, can you use that milk for something else - baking, perhaps? We sometimes save leftover cereal milk to put in our coffee too.

> That brings me to... guilt. Something in me feels this way of life is just
> way to good to be true.... and must be at somebody's expense. Namely my
> husband.

Yes, it can be a real sticking point if the "cost" of peace and freedom is someone else stuck as a wage slave. It helps to let your husband know that he is appreciated in as many ways as you can - as a provider, as a person who cares about his children, a friend and a lover. Extend to him the same principles of kindness and thoughtfulness you would like for you kids.

Make home a place he wants to be - his soft place to fall, the place where he's loved and respected. If he can feel that at home, it's much easier to go to work, knowing he's helping to create that warm, soft place.

---Meredith

Jenny Cyphers

After reading the whole post, it seems to me that a lot of the issues could be
changed by a few things. An unhappy husband and a wife who feels guilt for not
earning an income can both be easily resolved by the stay at home wife working
very hard to make the home life comfortable. By staying home you may not be
making money, but you can be saving money. You can make meals instead of eating
out, you have the luxury of time. Time has value, so do valuable things with
your time.

It takes time and effort to create a peaceful home environment. If your husband
is willing and able to earn an income, then support him in that. Do those nice
things for him, step it up a bit. Tidy up the house before he gets home, make
food he enjoys, create an atmosphere in which he can easily be with the kids in
a non stressful way.

While you are home with the kids, engage them in interesting things, so much so,
that they are full and happy and pleasant to be around, as much as possible.

Wasted food is wasted food. That is a hard issue for a lot of people,
especially if the person has ever been poor or experienced lack of food. My
father grew up in poverty and that is one issue that he still struggles with,
mostly internally, but sometimes he does verbalize it. When we visit my parents
home, I dish out all food servings to my kids. I give them tiny portions,
almost ridiculously small portions, and then they can finish everything on their
plates and get seconds if they want to. It's not ideal, but it's so much better
than feeling badly for wasting food.

I grew up with that. I was able to get over it by visualizing that my child had
finished it rather than the garbage eating it. It helped me to think in terms
of pretending that my child had finished it all. The food was gone, either way.
Some kids eat enormous amounts of food. I knew a 4 yr old that ate over twice
the amount of food that I did. Knowing that helped too. The amount a person
eats is so relative.

You could help your husband see how lucky he is that his children don't eat so
much, that there is milk left to be wasted.

About drinking cola... why is it just cola? There are so many soft drinks on
the market, experiment and enjoy. My family really likes ginger ale. I love
grapefruit soda. You could make Italian sodas with bubbly water and flavors and
whipped cream. Some kids really like soda. With free access to soda, I have
one kid who still prefers water to most anything else and one who would choose
soda over almost anything, although sometimes she chooses milk or juice or
water.





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Joy

>
> That brings me to... guilt. Something in me feels this way of life is just
> way to good to be true.... and must be at somebody's expense. Namely my
> husband. Intellectually I totally believe that guiding children though their
> childhood is the most important job there is (or do I?). Yet I can't help
> but feel like I am not contributing to the economy (but is that a bad
> thing?) and that somebody has to pay for my fun life... It almost feels
> artificial. Life as a lifelong holiday. And yet, could it be the rest of the
> world, the "schoolers" who have it upside down? But then our lifestyle has a
> cost and someone has to pick up the bills... I feel very
> puzzled/confused/lost around that one. Have some of you been there? Is it
> part of the regular deschooling brain rewiring? Dos the guilt go eventually?
>
I have been on this journey for over a year and a half. I experienced what you felt.
1. Too good to be true
I thought it must be some traps waiting for me otherwise I couldn't understand why anyone would choose the conventional way.

From my personal experience, yes, it is true. Following unschooling principles helps us to create joyful living, like holiday everyday...of course we had challenging moments and issues too. But overall, both kids and adults are much happier.

And they are learning A LOT! It just doesn't follow school schedule. My ds5 is learning something that may be taught at fifth grade but maybe he hasn't touched upon some subjects that is supposed to be learned by 5-year-old (not many I can think of)

2. I see myself contribute to the economy a lot
By not taking on a job that may be needed by other people (lol). And raising children is a very important job

I don't feel guilty any more. Instead, I feel very confident with my choice. And if I ever go back to work force, I will be much better worker or leader from the parenting training I received.

3. I was like you reading a lot but not spending time with my children. One reason was I didn't know how to play. Now I learned to be playful and continue to progress. The second reason, I learned to slow down to smell the rose and slow down to my children's universe of time and pace. It feels very good! The third reason, I "allow" myself to be "non-productive", I allow myself to enjoy "silly things" like coloring a page myself, I allow myself to play like a 2-yo or 5-yo...I allow myself many things I was not allowed when I grew up. Unschooling is also a healing process for myself.

And I listened to Sandra, read a little......I kind of stopped reading...just spend time with my children and learn to enjoy the time (not just doing my duty). When I encounter issues or doubts, I came back to read a little...

That helps me a lot.



Joy



>
> And then there is the anxiety I tend to feel when I am around my kid, tring
> to give them my full attention. As much as I hate to admit it, I must say I
> have not spent much time with my kids since they were born. Physically I am
> here allright (I've been a stay at home mum since I got pregnant with dd),
> but most of the time I am just "fleeing" from them. Mostly reading books or
> surfing the internet or seeking for adult company anywhere I can find it.
> Part of it has been amazing, transformative and all. If not for books and
> the internet, I wouldn't have found out about attachement parenting,
> unschooling and tons of other amazingly good stuff that has transformed our
> life for the better. And yet, the time I spend online or reading books or
> desperately seeking adult company feels like trying to escape. When I try to
> fight the anxiety It builds up. I feel bored to death, I get grumpy and it
> escalates... untill I can escape and let some steam out. I don't know what
> it is. I suspect part of it has to do with the previous 2 questions.... Part
> of it probably has to do with how I was raised. I know there is something
> else there. I tried focusing on that (as in "inner relationship focusing"
> http://www.focusingresources.com/) but with little success to this day. Any
> idea? I read all your posts and feel like I am such a selfish mum... When I
> read you it almost feels like unschooling can only work for selfless saints
> like you guys. And yet you don't really sound like selfless saint either...
> What am I missing?
>
> And finaly the easy one: cola. I've stopped limiting how much cola ds
> drinks. He had 3 litres in 2 days. That feels like a LOT. My niece (who is
> now 25) is a total coca cola addict. She will not go anywhere without a 1.5
> liter coca cola bottle, or at the very least a couple of cans in her
> handbag. I can't help but feel it's not good for her health and feel
> concerned. My sister restricted how much cola she could have when she was a
> child by hardly buying any. I did that too until last week. I hardly bought
> any, but when there was coke around, I would let him drink some. Most of my
> friends believe coca cola is addictive like a drug. If they're right,
> letting my son drink as much as he wants will not help... How long should I
> expect the coke frenzy to last (I appreciate 2 days is not enough for him to
> feel relax that he can have some whenever he wants)? How do your kids handle
> soda in general and coke in particular?
>
> This post is getting way too long, sorry...
>
> Warmly
> Claire
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>


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Sandra Dodd

There was a post last month I thought would be helpful for the new newbie. :-)
It was written by Rippy Dusseldorp, in the Netherlands on February 12.

**do most successful unschooling parents not want (and i don't mean that they are unwilling, just that they recognize their desires to do things that involve time away from the kids) to do other things except be with their children 24/7?**

Maybe it will help to change your perspective.

My husband and I see our time with our children (6, 4) as a gift.

I had a rewarding career before the children, but found it incompatible with having a young family. My time with my children is a gift I give myself because it is only this little slice of time in my life that I will have this opportunity. Children grow up fast and I want to be able to enjoy being a mother of young children. I avoid stressors as much as possible because it impedes on my ability to parent well. This includes the mainstream philosophy of regularly scheduled 'me-time' for the mom. I have little snippets of time here and there, when it does not inconvenience the children.

My husband sees his time with the children as a gift to himself for similar reasons. He made the decision to work 4 days a week and gave up promotions that would have meant more travel and stress during their childhood. His parents were constantly busy, stressed and quarreling. Although they worked from home, he often felt lonely and neglected while growing up.

Our gift to the children is that they have parents who are mindful, engaging, and constantly working to improve on their craft of being good parents.

Rippy
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/message/59696

That whole topic might be of interest.
too boring to unschool?
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/message/59648

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Claire Darbaud

2011/3/22 Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>

> -=- If you define being with children happily as being "a selfless saint,"
> it almost sounds like an insult. -=-
>

That's interesting... I had never seen it that way. Yet when you spell it
out, it looks so obvious. I suppose I would indeed feel very insulted if
someone described spending time with me as being a "selfless saint"...


> -=-TOO MANY WORDS.-=-
>

That felt "ouch"... and right on! I suspect "ouch" is a fairly good sign
that things are right on... :-)
But you're very right. It's a 3 word resume of my life. Words, books,
thinking, researching, talking about, preparing... anything but being
there... and my kids call me on it!



> -=-Too many words in your post, too. You might not get good responses
> because it's too long.-=-
>
Well, Im really happy with the responses I got! A lot of food for thought,
very to the point no bs. I feel really grateful! If these are "not good
responses", then I wonder what good responses look like :-P



> -=-Stop measuring the litres. Stop counting the days.-=-
>
I bought another 2 big bottles. And today my son asked for... water ;-) And
then he had a little more coke...

I've read you're not meant to post just to say thanks, so I'll just write a
quick line here to thank Meredith Joy and Jenny. Your answers are very very
helpfull!

Warmly
Claire


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Deb Lewis

***I really need to talk about it with him,
but I so don't know where to start... ***

I shared information with David in a, "this is what I'm thinking about.... this is what I read today.... this is what one family in New Mexico is doing..." kind of way.

Unschooling crept up on my husband over many years. It isn't even so much that he came to really believe in unschooling but that he came to not be afraid of how we were living and learning. Even if your partner never becomes the poster parent for unschooling advocacy you can still have a comfortable and peaceful unschooling life.

When you talk about unschooling, listen to your partner's concerns. Don't dismiss them. Answer them in reasonable and reassuring ways as much as possible. Don't expect him to agree with your general feelings that things will somehow be ok. Give him something real. Look here to see if there is something that might make sense to your husband: http://sandradodd.com/dads Resist offering Touchy-feely, "I know in my heart" stuff as "proof" of the feasibility of unschooling.

When your husband has specific concerns, go here: http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/ and look for the issue most closely related to your husband's worries and see if you can find something that will be reassuring.

There are more and more studies now about how individualized learning is better, about how stress affects mental health and learning, etc., find and collect and frequently read articles that promote individualized alternatives to mainstream education. Share them with your husband.

Sometimes, when David had worries I couldn't seem to calm, I would remind him that he trusted me. That's not an ideal strategy but if you don't use it too often it can help. I reminded him that he had trusted me with his tiny, helpless baby while he was away long hours at work and that he had this pile of evidence in his head that said I would not do anything to hurt Dylan.

***Yet I do feel he doesn't
realise the kids are really scared of him... They tell me they are, and I
try to tell him as gently as I can, but he says I am making it up,***

Maybe you are? My mom's perception of my dad influenced how we saw him when we were little. Instead of letting us have our own relationship with him, she molded it. *She* was intimidated by him and so was sure we ought to be. My mother had very little humor and my dad had a biting sarcastic wit. It scared and hurt my mom and she seemed to not consider that her children shared some genes with their father. Your children don't necessarily feel what you feel.

What was your husband's relationship with his father? He is probably parenting much like his father did. When he talks about his childhood does he talk about being afraid of his dad? If yes, you might remind him how he felt when he was little. If no, then relax some.

***But then our lifestyle has a
cost and someone has to pick up the bills... ***

If you imagine all that you do in a day not getting done maybe you can start to see the value. What would it cost your partner to replace you with hired help?

***When I try to fight the anxiety It builds up. I feel bored to death, I get grumpy and it
escalates... untill I can escape and let some steam out. I don't know what it is.***

Get some physical activity. Go for a walk or run at night when your husband is home with the kids or in the morning before he leaves. Get to a yoga class or a gym. Jump rope. Do something physical every day. It will make a difference. It will help you feel better and think better.

***Part
of it probably has to do with how I was raised. I know there is something
else there. I tried focusing on that (as in "inner relationship focusing") <snip> but with little success to this day. Any
idea? I read all your posts and feel like I am such a selfish mum...***

I really don't know how you can expect to not feel selfish if most of the work you do involves focusing on yourself. <g> Your issues may resolve more readily if you live well, take action to make life good, and start looking at what you have instead of what you don't have.

Deb Lewis











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Sandra Dodd

I'm going to respond to these for the benefit of LOTS of readers, which is the purpose of the list, with a side reminder that it might not be good to consider this season in France, where it is not yet the fashion. Being in France with young children, they might be in school a year or two while you go through these exercises.

-=-What was your husband's relationship with his father? He is probably parenting much like his father did. When he talks about his childhood does he talk about being afraid of his dad? If yes, you might remind him how he felt when he was little. If no, then relax some. -=-

And if he says "I really don't remember anything about my early childhood, tell him that's a sign of stress and avoidance, and you would like for your own children to remember their childhoods fondly.

When Kirby was young and I would ask Keith what something was like for him, when he was that age, Keith rarely remembered at all. Not about birthdays. Not about Christmas. His childhood memories are of physical injury and hospitalization. He has an early-teen memory of having broken his arm while off at school decorating a float (jumped off the back of the flatbed while they were parking it--moving very slowly, but kids underestimate that effect) and fell in the parking lot. His mother, a nurse, told him to go to bed and she would take him to the doctor in the morning.

By talking to him about what he did and didn't remember (not all at once, but in various conversations), that helped him consider his own childhood in ways that helped him see ways he did and didn't want to help his own children's childhoods.

-=-***But then our lifestyle has a cost and someone has to pick up the bills... ***

-=-If you imagine all that you do in a day not getting done maybe you can start to see the value. What would it cost your partner to replace you with hired help? -=-

Don't let the idea of staying home with your children make you think of yourself AS one of the children. Consider the costs of school--private or government-funded either one. You're saving all that, and the cost of before and after-school care, and the clothes school would require of them and work would require of you, and transportation.

Sandra






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plaidpanties666

"Deb Lewis" <d.lewis@...> wrote:
>> What was your husband's relationship with his father? He is probably parenting much like his father did. When he talks about his childhood does he talk about being afraid of his dad? If yes, you might remind him how he felt when he was little. If no, then relax some.
****************

It helped George to know that I respected and appreciated him when he *wasn't* being like his dad. He didn't have a great relationship with his dad - still doesn't - but he also didn't really have any other ideas or models as to how to be a dad. So it bugged him to see himself "turning into his father" but he didn't have anything, he thought, to put in its place. I would notice, out loud, when he was patient and thoughtful with the kids - George is naturally more phlegmatic than I am, in many ways, and that's such a help when I'm over-reacting but he didn't know it was a help until I told him. So I'd say "oh, you're so patient, that's so wonderful" and he'd glow and next time he'd be even more calm sooner. He also liked to hear that he was sweet - he needed to hear it so that he could be sweet to the kids more often. He wasn't sure it was a good thing, sweetness, so when I'd tell him it made me happy to see him being sweet with the kids (not a lecture, just a comment - aw, that was sweet, I love it when you do that) he'd get all sheepish and happy and be even sweeter next time around.

---Meredith

Lisa E Biesemeyer

"So I'd say "oh, you're so patient, that's so wonderful" and he'd glow and next
time he'd be even more calm sooner. He also liked to hear that he was sweet -
he needed to hear it so that he could be sweet to the kids more often. He
wasn't sure it was a good thing, sweetness, so when I'd tell him it made me
happy to see him being sweet with the kids (not a lecture, just a comment - aw,
that was sweet, I love it when you do that) he'd get all sheepish and happy and
be even sweeter next time around."

This is really helpful, Meredith. My husband/kids' dad has been encountering
some serious fears of not being "up to the task" (his words) of
peacefully/mindfully parenting 3 children (4.75yo and twin 16mos). The more he
doubts himself, the less patient he becomes and the more passive aggressive (how
he was parented by his dad) he becomes. He is a naturally highly sensitive
person with a major desire to please others, so I could see how my recognition
of his moments of sweetness, patience, kindness, and helpfulness would get him
to where he'd like to be as a father (more patient and kind) much faster and
with more good feelings for him (and in turn for the kids and me) than the times
when I point out what he's not doing patiently and kindly, which usually results
in him feeling badly about himself, less able to be patient and kind towards the
kids, and reinforces parenting behaviors/styles similar to his parents. Now that
I think about it, when I calmly discuss with him the areas that are and aren't
working for the kids, me, or him, I think he may feel like I am pointing out the
negatives more often than the positives, and this is why he often feels
defeated (the last thing I want him to feel) coming away from those
conversations. I feel like this is such a given; I don't know why I didn't see
this before. I will work on recognizing (in a more casual manner as opposed to
the "let's sit down and have a discussion" way that we usually do) when he is
sweet, patient, helpful, etc rather than addressing when he is not. Thank you
for this.


Lisa B

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Claire Darbaud

2011/3/26 Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>

> -=- I'm going to respond to these for the benefit of LOTS of readers,
> which is the purpose of the list, with a side reminder that it might not be
> good to consider this season in France, where it is not yet the fashion.
> Being in France with young children, they might be in school a year or two
> while you go through these exercises. -=-
>

I'm sorry Sandra, I just dont' understand what you are saying. What's
special about this season in France? What exercices are you refering to?
Why should children be in school in France? Can you clarify what you mean?

Kind regards
Claire


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seccotine_ch

--- Sandra Dodd wrote:
>
-=- I'm going to respond to these for the benefit of LOTS of readers, which is the purpose of the list, with a side reminder that it might not be good to consider this season in France, where it is not yet the fashion. Being in France with young children, they might be in school a year or two while you go through these exercises.-=-
>

I am sorry, but I don't understand what you have written here. What I understand (and I would like to know if this is correct) is that homeschooling (and even more unschooling) is harder in France, as it is not as widespread as in the United States ? Is that it ?

Thank you

Helen, from Geneva (Switzerland),
mom to Sylvain, Cyrielle, Circé and Valérian.

Sandra Dodd

-=-I'm sorry Sandra, I just dont' understand what you are saying. What's
special about this season in France? What exercices are you refering to?
Why should children be in school in France? Can you clarify what you mean?-=-

Even if the question were about Texas where a family doesn't need to register or report, I would say that if the dad is adamantly opposed to unschooling, the children should be in school until the parents can agree. Because if the wife is trying to learn and model being a partner to each person in the family, she can't leave her husband until last, or she risks not having a husband at all, and in the case of divorce, unschooling is often the first thing to go. And sometimes there come to be a stepmother, and a stepfather, in addition to school

France is not "unschooling friendly." That will make it even worse if one parent tries to force the other parent's hand, and will make it more difficult to "prove" unschooling can work, if there are visits from the government and tests in their immediate future. Unschooling needs a rich, supportive family life as a work base, not strife and sorrow and fear.

And the purpose of this list is not to solve individual people's problems, but it "will focus on how people learn no matter where in the world they are, rather than on what's legal in any particular country or jurisdiction." http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/

So even the discussion of how to persuade a husband can be (or become, if it's stretched) off topic. It's possible for people here to get into a kind of frenzy of "support" that someone can take and do damage to their situations with.

One choice, one step at a time, each thoughtfully and safely, is a better way to go that to leap into the dark with false confidence.

One parent can no more make a unilateral decision about what the entire family will do about formal education or lack thereof than one parent can make a unilateral decision about buying a yacht, or all becoming vegan or beef-eaters.

Sandra

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Sandra Dodd

-=-Being in France with young children, they might be in school a year or two while you go through these exercises.-=-=-

I meant that if the husband says "school," the mom can put them in school while still pursuing eventual homeschooling and unschooling, and work on strengthening and maintaining the marriage, and giving her husband an opportunity to consider it while he's getting his way. And it might take a year or two.

Sandra

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Claire Darbaud

2011/3/26 Deb Lewis d.lewis@...

> -=- Give him something real. Look here to see if there is something that
> might make sense to your husband: http://sandradodd.com/dads -=-
>

Thanks for that. The unofficial guide to unschooling dads is exactly what I
needed! And there's more to explore :-)


> -=- Maybe you are? -=- (making up that the kids are afraid of him)
>

Well, I always wonder about that. I have no doubt that what I feel and think
influences my children in more ways then I can see. Yet, I am not afraid of
my husband. And overall I think he is a great dad. I love the way he plays
with the kids in a very simply playful way... And at times, I see this
grown man threaten the little people in my house, telling them he'll pull
their ears or spank them. And I can see the little people have scared looks
in their eyes. I know my husband doesn't mean to be scary, and he generately
doesn't "mean" what he is threatening them with. But the children don't see
that. And they tell me they are scared. They try to tell him too, but he
says it's not true. Are you saying I shouldn't believe them either?


> What was your husband's relationship with his father? He is probably
> parenting much like his father did. When he talks about his childhood does
> he talk about being afraid of his dad? If yes, you might remind him how he
> felt when he was little. If no, then relax some.
>

All, him and his brother and sisters, are scared of his dad. My husband's
younger brother being the most scared. His mum is not scared of his dad at
all. It feels like she's the "boss" in the house. I get along very well with
both his parents and I love them very much. And I am not scared of his
dad either. He's a pretty nice man. And he too can not believe that his
children are scared of him. I know, I tried to tell him.


> -=- What would it cost your partner to replace you with hired help? -=-
>

Yes, that's a very helpfull one. Thanks! There is no way we could afford to
pay someone to be present to the kids the way I try to be. Not if I got 3
jobs! :-)


> -=- I really don't know how you can expect to not feel selfish if most
> of the work you do involves focusing on yourself. -=-
>

That one simply doesn't make any sense to me. First I have not said that
Focusing is "most of the work I do". But morevover, there is one thing
I Believe in my bones: it's that the adult has to take care of old hurt and
do inner work or the kids will inherit her problems. No escape. Self
awareness is an absolute must. If you don't take care of you're own stuff,
you'll pass it on. And passing on my stuff to my kids is not exactly the
life present I dream of for them. Focusing as proved to be an extremely
powerfull, effective and yet gentle way for me to make sense of my own
story, develop self love and be kinder to the people around me. I want to
raise kids who love themselves and take good care of themselves. I believe
the only way to do that is to model it.

Could it be that you don't know about "Focusing" the self awareness
practice and that you thought I was saying I am thinking and thinking about
my problem"? Scott Noelle wrote a nice article about Focusing here:
http://www.enjoyparenting.com/focusing

Focusing is also an amazing practice for children, to help them deal with
fear, or anxiety, or any strong emotions. I've been wanting to post about it
on the anxiety and fear thread. But I feel new and shy to "give advice" when
I am very aware I am so new to this path.


> -=- Your issues may resolve more readily if you live well, take action
> to make life good, and start looking at what you have instead of what you
> don't have. -=-
>

That sounds like "shut up and be gratefull for what you have". I feel it's
very bad advice for children, I don't see how it translates in good advice
for adults. Or maybe I am misunderstanding what you meant?
Claire


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Sandra Dodd

-=Well, I always wonder about that. I have no doubt that what I feel and think
influences my children in more ways then I can see. Yet, I am not afraid of
my husband. And overall I think he is a great dad.-=-

You've known him a long time. :-)
He's only twice as big as you are (or less).

It's okay for them not to have the same opinion of another person (even their dad) as you do. It will pass.

-=- And they tell me they are scared. They try to tell him too, but he
says it's not true. Are you saying I shouldn't believe them either?-=-

It's not about believing them, it's about what you do or say next. You could say he might be saying that because it's what people said when he was little. You might say you don't think he means it. You might say they could say "Why would you pull my ears?" (in a friendly, conversational way, so he'll hear what he said). If you react in such a way that they feel they were absolutely right to be fearful, that will add to the fear.

-=-That one simply doesn't make any sense to me. First I have not said that
Focusing is "most of the work I do". But morevover, there is one thing
I Believe in my bones: it's that the adult has to take care of old hurt and
do inner work or the kids will inherit her problems. No escape-=-

If you didn't do that work before you had children, it won't help for you to do it first and then take care of your children. It doesn't get to be your primary focus, IF you want to be a mindful, present mother.

-=-Could it be that you don't know about "Focusing" the self awareness
practice and that you thought I was saying I am thinking and thinking about
my problem"?-=-

Don't use any words here in ways that aren't plain English. We shouldn't need to guess what you mean by a normal English word.

Clarity. http://sandradodd.com/lists/alwayslearningPOSTS

-=-Focusing is also an amazing practice for children, to help them deal with
fear, or anxiety, or any strong emotions. I've been wanting to post about it
on the anxiety and fear thread. But I feel new and shy to "give advice" when
I am very aware I am so new to this path.-=-

I think it's a good instinct, to wait and get a feel for the list and to know more about the ways in which unschooling itself can be healing and self-improving.

YIKES, on this one:

> -=- Your issues may resolve more readily if you live well, take action
> to make life good, and start looking at what you have instead of what you
> don't have. -=-
>

-=-That sounds like "shut up and be gratefull for what you have". I feel it's
very bad advice for children, I don't see how it translates in good advice
for adults. Or maybe I am misunderstanding what you meant?-=-

No one said "shut up" but you. I never even THINK "shut up."
The next time you think someone on this list said "shut up and be grateful," maybe you should re-read what she DID say. Maybe print it out and sleep with it under your pillow, and don't post until you've read it several more times, and tried thinking about it and maybe even doing it.

Taking action to make things better has nothing to do with "shut up."
Looking at what you DO have has EVERYTHING to do with living a life of abundance rather than of paucity and fear and sorrow and desire and worry.

http://sandradodd.com/abundance/

Even taking advice should probably be done gradually, rather than wanting big answers quickly.

Read a little, try a little, wait a while, watch.

Sandra

Deb Lewis

***I know my husband doesn't mean to be scary, and he generately
doesn't "mean" what he is threatening them with. But the children don't see
that. And they tell me they are scared. They try to tell him too, but he
says it's not true. Are you saying I shouldn't believe them either?***

I'm not saying you shouldn't believe them. I'm saying you should be careful not to feed their fear with fearful looks of your own, or actions or language, that might seem to confirm to the children that their father is scary and really will pull their ears. You might say something playful, like,
"If he pulled your ears as often as he says he will your ears would be so long they would drag on the floor!" Or whatever might be more suited to the moment and your family humor. Alleviate the situation. Don't fuel it.

***the adult has to take care of old hurt and
do inner work or the kids will inherit her problems.***

And they might anyway if the mom's problems started with a mother who was too often stuck in her own head. Or they might inherit another set if, while you're working to meet your emotional needs, you neglect theirs. Be careful. You have a small window of time with your children. You'll have the rest of your life with yourself.

***Could it be that you don't know about "Focusing" the self awareness
practice ***

I know about it. And in many cases it seems to be a validation of plain old narcissism. If you're finding it helpful then that's fine. I'm cautioning against living so much in your own head, devoted to your own desires and problems, that you fail to see what your children really need.

Everyone has issues. Everyone. You're not special because you had childhood hurts. I don't mean to be harsh, just to help you get out of your head for a little while and think about what is going on in your life, today. You are the mother of children. You are not a child. You're not weak and helpless and at the mercy of grown ups. You are the grown up.

***That sounds like "shut up and be gratefull for what you have". ***

No. I didn't write, "shut up." What could you do today to make life more fun or more interesting or more comfortable? What could you do to help your family feel a little happier? Do that. Do that every day. Don't start your day by thinking that you don't have enough of something... energy, money, time, whatever. Start by thinking that you have exactly enough to have a good day today. Positive changes in your words, thinking and actions will make positive changes in your life.

Being grateful for what you have is not a bad idea. Maybe it was used to guilt you into certain kinds of behavior when you were a child so you're uncomfortable about it. You don't have to always consider it a tool for manipulation. It can be a way to gain perspective when you seem to be stuck.

But I wrote, "start looking at what you have instead of what you don't have."
Enjoy what you have. Don't compare it with the glorious things you think others have. Don't compare it to some perfect ideal in your head. Make choices that make each day a good day for your family. Maintain a realistic perspective. That can help you feel better right now, too.

Deb Lewis











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HA

> I have no doubt that what I feel and think influences my children in more ways then I can see... And at times, I see this grown man threaten the little people in my house, telling them he'll pull their ears or spank them. And I can see the little people have scared looks in their eyes. <

You'd said earlier that you feel like you're in the middle of your husband and kids sometimes. They want something or dad doesn't, the kids sense his anger and look to you to provide a barrier.

Personally, I would make light of these situations instead to try alleviate their concerns, but also back up his opinion. "Oh, I don't know if he'd pull your ears, but daddy and I don't want a dirty floor, so please remember to take your shoes off when you come inside." Then put a little sign on the door that says "Remember to take off your shoes!" Or whatever relates to the issue at hand.

If you have a problem with what he wants - limiting sweets or chores or whatever - talk to him about it later in private.

That is what we try to do now, and it works out much better for our family.

Good luck!
Hilary

Sandra Dodd

Something new today, from outside this list, about what we focus on, the the effect:

Recently I suggested to a wife who was feeling hopeless, that she put the problems aside for awhile. I asked her what they used to do together that was enjoyable. She reached for the memories, and with some effort described going out for spontaneous lunches, walks on the beach and making music together. She sounded as if those memories were pretty dusty.

I invited her to try those things anew. She was reticent, reminding me that there were pressing issues that needed attention. I assured her that there was time for them too.

After a surprisingly short time, she called me and said that things were already shifting. It was much easier to feel good about being with her husband when they were talking about pleasant things, rather than always making a beeline for problems. Some of the difficulties in fact, simply expired.


http://archive.aweber.com/marriagemoats/1NJ7W/h/Marriage_Moats_The_Bridge.htm
My friend Lori Odhner, who's involved in helping people strengthen their marriages, wrote that.
The full writing is about three times that long and has an image.

Sandra






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plaidpanties666

Claire Darbaud <cdarbaud@...> wrote:
>they tell me they are scared. They try to tell him too, but he
> says it's not true. Are you saying I shouldn't believe them either?

How and why did they tell you they were scared of their father? It seems an odd thing for a child to say, which makes me wonder if you prompted them - was that scary? That little question can shift a dynamic, make fear the most important thing they recall about an interaction.

Which isn't to say you should shrug off their fears, but it won't help them if you feed into them. Look for ways to smooth their paths, so that they aren't facing those situations. If your husband is skeptical about gentle parenting, that could include encouraging your kids to be more compliant around their dad, and telling him things like "they are doing their best" - not angrily or defensively, but to let him know his kids are trying, but are still just children.

>
> That sounds like "shut up and be gratefull for what you have". I feel it's
> very bad advice for children, I don't see how it translates in good advice
> for adults. Or maybe I am misunderstanding what you meant?

I think you're reading advice to value what you have through a lens of unschooling self-righteousness. I've done that - it doesn't help your adult relationships, I promise. Extend the exact same principles you want for your kids to your husband. If you value respect, respect him. If you value peace, help his life be more peaceful. Extend to him the Benefits of unschooling or he'll see no reason at all to value it.

Its also good to be grateful - openly grateful to your husband - for making your time with your kids possible. If he doesn't feel apreciated, then why should he bother slogging away, day in and out for your so called freedom and happiness? Why should you and the kids win while he loses? Its up to you to set things up so that he's not tempted to wonder those things, which may mean some compromises on your part.

---Meredith

Claire

--- Meridith wrote:
-=- How and why did they tell you they were scared of their father? It seems an odd thing for a child to say, which makes me wonder if you prompted them - was that scary? -=-

I don't prompt them. It happens more like Dad and I want them to go somewhere with him (or stay at home with him while I go out to do something) and they refuse. When I ask why, they say they're scared of him because he punishes them sometimes, or pinches their cheeks or pulls their ears... :-(

-=- Which isn't to say you should shrug off their fears, but it won't help them if you feed into them. -=-
Yes, I appreciate that... But I also feel confused. Feeling safe at home is important for me. MY kids should be able to feel safe in their own home. Being scared of punishment or spanking does not nurture feeling safe. I do not want to caution theats and punishement including corporal punishment. I know I would feel scared if someone twice my sizen was threatening to pull me ears...

-=- Look for ways to smooth their paths, so that they aren't facing those situations. If your husband is skeptical about gentle parenting, that could include encouraging your kids to be more compliant around their dad -=-

Yes, I very much try to do that. I don't seem to be very good at it though... I'll keep at it.

-= If you value respect, respect him. If you value peace, help his life be more peaceful. Extend to him the Benefits of unschooling or he'll see no reason at all to value it. -=-

I totally support that. It makes total sense.... But it seems sooooo hard to do though :-(

-=- Its also good to be grateful - openly grateful to your husband - for making your time with your kids possible. If he doesn't feel apreciated, then why should he bother slogging away, day in and out for your so called freedom and happiness? Why should you and the kids win while he loses? -=-

Yes, I am begining to see this (partly thanks to this list), I guess the idea needs to work it's way to my bone marrow... Meanwhile, I'm trying my best (and I do see it makes our relationship much more peacefull).

Thanks for all this!
Claire

Deb Lewis

***...because he punishes them sometimes, or pinches their cheeks or pulls their ears..***

Does he pinch their cheeks and pull their ears because he thinks it's funny, or is he really trying to hurt them?

I had an aunt who'd pinch cheeks and grab my ears to hold me while she kissed me with her big, red, lipsticky face. She's dead now.<g>

I know there are differences in relationships, but if David was doing something to hurt Dylan, I would plainly tell him to stop.

Deb Lewis



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Sandra Dodd

-=- When I ask why, they say they're scared of him because he punishes them sometimes, or pinches their cheeks or pulls their ears... :-(
-=-

Does he actually do those things?
I thought you said he had threatened to pull their ears or spank them, but didn't know he actually had.

-=-MY kids should be able to feel safe in their own home. -=-

So should your husband's. Slight possibility... are you discussing these things with him in terms of what he's doing to YOUR (singular) children rather than "our" children? If the situation is antagonistic between you and your husband, then one of you will lose. If you say "Do NOT pull their ears, because I said so," then he either does what you say (and loses) or he pulls their ears (and he wins, you lose). Find a way to be partners as he (perhaps gradually) moves toward where you want him to be. Maybe coach the kids in ways to avoid frustrating him, while you coach him elsewhere in ways to be more patient.

Some moms think if they get divorced, all that problem will be over. I know you didn't mention divorce, but antagonism starts a crack that can become a rift. If you were divorced, they would be with him alone LOTS of times, and what he did would be far beyond your control or influence. So live as though you intend to be married for 27 years or more, and that will help everyone.


Today is my 27th anniversary, which is what made me think of that.

Sandra






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Claire

--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:

-=- Does he actually do those things? I thought you said he had threatened to pull their ears or spank them, but didn't know he actually had. -=-

Rarely, but yes. And he used to feel it was normal to do so, to teach the kids to respect adults. Not anymore but he still threatens sometimes and sometimes (not often) he still pulls an ear... :-(

I don't mean to point finger. I used to think spanking was a natural, normal way to raise children. I myself had to revisit my beliefs with my kids help. I know he's working his way to a more peacefull parenting too. And I see he needs to do it from his own gut and not feel I'm forcing him...

-=- Some moms think if they get divorced, all that problem will be over. I know you didn't mention divorce, but antagonism starts a crack that can become a rift. -=-

Divorce is not an option here. As a matter of fact we just got back together after being separated for 1,5 years. Being together is hard. Being apart is way way harder.

One reason I enjoy this list so much is because you advocate keeping the marriage strong so much. I have realised my kids learn A LOT about interpersonal relationships from the way their dad and I interact. One day, my son was saying very nasty things to his younger sister and I couldn't help but say "where in the world do you learn to be so mean, neither your dad nor I talk to you like that" and right behind my son, was his dad. And it dawned on me: they are talking to each other the very way my husband and I talk to each other. OH MY.....

And then I also realised I had A LOT to do with my husband behaving the way he did. As Meredith mentioned, he must have felt "why in the world should I slave my butt to bring home a wage and all I get is blame?" for a looong time.

And I love him very much :-)

Getting back together meant moving to a new city and I refused to change the kid's school in the middle of the school year. So he suggested we homeschool them (I had been wanting to unschool since my son started school when he was 3. So my husband knew I would jump on the occasion). The deal was homeschool though, and I honestly meant to use a curriculum. Untill I started using one and realised they find it so boring...

We're finding our path to becoming a team. This list is helping a lot in a "ouch" way. He's not saying we need to send them back to school anymore. But he would like us to enroll them in a correspondance school. I try to explain why I don't think it's a good idea in a "this is what I see but if you insist we'll do it your way" and he seems to respond much better.

I'm also very lucky to have a very very inspiring (almost) unschooling family for neighbors :-)

plaidpanties666

"Claire" <cdarbaud@...> wrote:
>> Yes, I appreciate that... But I also feel confused. Feeling safe at home is important for me. MY kids should be able to feel safe in their own home. Being scared of punishment or spanking does not nurture feeling safe.
****************

There are real limits in life, though. In another post I wrote about defense mechanisms and husbands being hurt little boys inside - it may help to see your husband's defenses as one of the limits in your life right now. That doesn't mean you shouldn't look for ways to soften and avoid and overcome those limits! But you can't wish them away, either, any more than I can wish me gun-toting redneck neighbors away (I shouldn't stereotype... the worst are yankee transplants, same as me).

The trouble is, if unschooling scares him enough, then the more you push for unschooling, the less safe your children will be in his company, because he'll be trying to undo the damage you are inflicting on them. You may be better off looking into "gentle discipline" resources so that you have a "safer" set of tools to offer him then the complex decision-making that goes into unschooling.

---Meredith

Sandra Dodd

-=-We're finding our path to becoming a team. This list is helping a lot in a "ouch" way. He's not saying we need to send them back to school anymore. But he would like us to enroll them in a correspondance school. I try to explain why I don't think it's a good idea in a "this is what I see but if you insist we'll do it your way" and he seems to respond much better.-=-

I always said if something happened to cause me to need to enroll my kids, somehow, I would do Clonlara
http://clonlara.org

They used to, and still might, "support unschooling."
Even if they don't so much, it's something the parents could help the kids with, and it's not so invasive as the parents trying to "make" the kids follow a curriculum.

I'm glad to hear your family is reunited after a separation, and that might need to be the priority for your family now, is healing and making up for those rougher days.

Sandra

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Claire

--- Meredith wrote:

-=- The trouble is, if unschooling scares him enough, then the more you push for unschooling, the less safe your children will be in his company, because he'll be trying to undo the damage you are inflicting on them. -=-

Sadly, this is SOOO true. In the past we have played the "undermining each others parenting" game with a passion. I know for a fact that when he was alone with the kids, he rarely had to raise his voice and the kids would do as they were told. It felt like he was using his alone time with them to "fix them" while he could...

But then they would get back with me and let out the frustration and say they don't want to be with dad and I would try to listen and welcome emotions meaning to undo what he did...

Exhausting and counter productive and damaging for the children...

Learning to become a parenting team is definitely the most challenging part of parenting in our house. But we're working at it and I must say I really need to work at letting go and learning to trust that he only wants the best for his children and he is doing his very best with the information he chooses to believe...

He also has a very instinctive approach to parenting and the idea that we european people need books to learn how to raise our kids totally freaks him out.

-=- You may be better off looking into "gentle discipline" resources so that you have a "safer" set of tools to offer him then the complex decision-making that goes into unschooling. -=-

What kind of safer set of tools are you refering too?

Sandra Dodd

-=-Learning to become a parenting team is definitely the most challenging part of parenting in our house. But we're working at it and I must say I really need to work at letting go and learning to trust that he only wants the best for his children and he is doing his very best with the information he chooses to believe...-=-

That's a put-down, "Chooses to believe."

If he said that about you, and unschooling, would you feel warmer toward him?

-=--=- You may be better off looking into "gentle discipline" resources so that you have a "safer" set of tools to offer him then the complex decision-making that goes into unschooling. -=-

-=-What kind of safer set of tools are you refering too?-=-

Some guidelines and rules, I'm guessing was meant, in that context.

Sandra

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plaidpanties666

"Claire" <cdarbaud@...> wrote:
>> What kind of safer set of tools are you refering too?

I was thinking of non-spanking (or ear pulling) sorts of discipline - which is probably not your ideal, but its a better set of options for him than threats and hitting. Search for books on the subject of "gentle discipline". In the US, they have classes, but I don't know about France, sorry.

---Meredith