Mary Hickcox

Hi everyone,  I am at my wit's end with this one and really need some encouragement and advice.  I have a son who is 3 1/2 and has been hurting our animals since he was small.  It goes in phases and we have tried to work with him in several different ways.  Although it is completely against what I believe in, we have even tried time outs to instill in him how not OK this behavior is.  I know 1 thing everyone will say is that I need to be with him but I am, he does this right in front of us.  And I have to go out sometimes, so it is impossible for me personally to have my eyes on him every second.
Yesterday things got even worse.  I was out getting errands done and my husband was here.  When I returned I learned that he got one of our chicks (while my husband was in the bathroom very quickly) and he killed it.  This of course was so sad and terrible.  I questioned just about everything and spent a lot of time crying.  We showed it to him and tried to talk to him sternly about how bad it was, then buried it together.  It seemed to have an effect on him so I thought maybe this was something he would learn from.  Then this morning he woke up and left the room without waking me (which he always does).  I was half awake when he got up but it took me 1-2 minutes to get out of bed and follow him.  When I came in he was very roughly playing with the cat.  I did not handle it well.  It breaks my heart that he would do such a thing, so hard for me to understand.  I rose my voice and put him into time out in a rough manner (not proud of that).
 I talked to him more about it afterwards but he just doesn't get it.  So my question is why is he doing this and what can I do to help him to understand what he is doing?
Thanks so much for any advice.

Mary mama to Dylan (11), Colin (7) and Theo (3)
"Be who you want your children to be."    Unknown  






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

One tweak will help for starters, I think. I changed (just on my response, it won't change the whole topic) "abusing" to "mishandling."

That might help the way the parents and siblings see the situation.

If he's not purposefully being mean, it's not fair to say "abuse."

Sometimes the same sensibility ("intelligence" in Howard Gardner's terminology) that would keep a child from knowing when he was playing too rough or hugging too hard could keep him from judging how softly to touch a cat or a chick.

-=-I know 1 thing everyone will say is that I need to be with him but I am, he does this right in front of us. And I have to go out sometimes, so it is impossible for me personally to have my eyes on him every second.-=

Then don't leave him alone with animals?

-=-We showed it to him and tried to talk to him sternly about how bad it was, then buried it together. -=-

How bad was it? Was it a $15 chick specially bred?
One session with a psychologist costs more than the most expensive chick, I think.

I'm wondering about "tried to talk to him sternly," too.
If you expressed shock and dismay in a natural way, and the chick was dead enough to bury, I'm not sure why any more talking would be necessary.

Three and a half is very young.

-=- I talked to him more about it afterwards but he just doesn't get it.-=-

Don't make a bigger deal about it than it is. Protect your chicks from other animals and children. Protect your young child from the opportunity to get to your chickens if it upsets you that much.

-=-So my question is why is he doing this and what can I do to help him to understand what he is doing?-=-

He's doing it because he's little and he's learning. The cat can get up and leave, or scratch or bite. Cats can defend themselves. If you lectured him at length about the cat, and suggested he might kill it as he killed the chick (just guessing, in case you might have) I think that's going too far.

When I was little I killed bugs, with my hands, not to make them hurt, but to see how their legs came off. I was three or four--maybe five-- when I pulled "the lights" off fireflies and stuck them to my fingers where rings would go. I was too little to know I was killing the bug (or to think about why it was sticking to my finger). When I realized it, I stopped doing it.

It is possible for parental reaction to be more harmful than innocent childish roughness.

Until he's older and gentler, be more vigilant.

Sandra




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

Some children are too rough with pets. My son was super gentle but my daughter
was rough.
I had a cat that would not  run from her and let her do everything and just took
it. I kept that cat away.
Keep the animals away from the child. Keep the animals safe.
At 5 now my daughter is gentle with them. 
 
Alex Polikowsky

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

DISSER420

Thanks so much Sandra. I guess my insecurity is that it is abuse rather then just mistreatment. I have a very soft spot for animals so I think their is more upset on my part then there needs to be. I will change that. We never leave him alone with the animals, but they roam freely (and the cat is a kitten, rescued just recently from a monkeys grasp...literally, and we all love her so much)and every once in a while I am making dinner or something and he gets to them. I feel he should have the ability to walk around a bit too without me on top of him but you are probably right, for now he needs 100% supervision, even if he doesn't want it.

"How bad was it?"...Our hen just sat on eggs for 21 days, they hatched, and we have been watching them grow lovingly for 3 weeks...so pretty bad. Not in the sense of money, I don't care about that, but in the sense that it is another life. Do you think he should see a psychologist??

"suggested he might kill it as he killed the chick "...I did say that, and I think you are right. Too much for a little boy:( Thanks for pointing that out.

Great advice, I need to be on top of him and not let it upset me so much. I guess he probably won't hurt animals his whole life. I just wonder if I should seek out intervention. Someone else suggested that I NEEDED to as it was a huge concern.

Thanks, Mary

Deb Lewis

***I have a son who is 3 1/2 and has been hurting our animals since he was small. ***

He's still small. One question would be, if you knew he couldn't yet be gentle with animals, why do you have chicks?

***I know 1 thing everyone will say is that I need to be with him but I am, he does this right in front of us. ***

When people recommend being with a child more it's not just about being in the same house or the same room. It's about being at the side of the child, engaged with him, as much as possible. Be near enough and paying enough attention that you can see or guess by his actions, eye direction, etc., what he might be moving toward so that you can help him. Some kids need a lot more close attention from their parents.

***It breaks my heart that he would do such a thing, so hard for me to understand.***

It's not his responsibility to keep the animals safe, it's yours. Find a way for your pets to be safe from him. Make sure he's not alone with the animals. Make a room where cats can get away from him that he can't get into.

***So my question is why is he doing this...***

He's little and doesn't understand and he has too much access to pets without the help of an adult.

***... and what can I do to help him to understand what he is doing?***

Be kind to your pets and keep them safe from him. Be gentle with him. He's learning more every day.

Deb Lewis





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Schuyler

________________________________
I have a son who is 3 1/2 and has been hurting our animals since he was small.
-----------------------------

3 1/2 is small. He is still a very little person. Empathy with animals can take
a long time to grow into. Yesterday when we were walking the dog there was a
little girl of about 8 who was walking her dog with her mom. They were clearly
taking dog obedience classes somewhere as they stopped to work on some of the
exercises one typically works on when taking a dog class. The girl was jerking
the heck out of this little Jack Russell terrier. He cried a couple of times.
She clearly wasn't seeing what she was doing as being a bit too rough with her
pup.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It goes in phases and we have tried to work with him in several different ways.

--------------------------------------------------

Maybe the phases are about him growing into different kinds of strength and
power. Maybe he doesn't really know what he is doing physically and isn't
terribly aware of the effect of his power on a small creature.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Although it is completely against what I believe in, we have even tried time
outs to instill in him how not OK this behavior is.

-----------------------------------

Which hasn't worked because he isn't, probably, doing anything abusive or cruel
by his own standards. He's playing with animals, not being abusive. He's just
too rough and not aware of how that plays out. Rather than try and get him to
suss it out, keep the animals away from him. Make sure cats can get away,
install a cat door so that they can flee the house if necessary. Don't keep
chickens within hands reach, or climbing reach, or where he can get to. Child
proof your animals. Don't wait for your son to develop the necessary awareness
of cause and effect and of empathy, get everything safe so that it isn't an
issue and he'll become much more aware of how to hold a chick and not kill it as
he ages.


Schuyler

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-I guess my insecurity is that it is abuse rather then just mistreatment.-=-

What?
Please clarify that.
Are you clinging to your claim that it is abuse? Or do you mean to say that you're concerned that it might be abuse?
Please be as clear as you can be when you write to this list (or anywhere). I and others here are trying to help you clarify your thoughts.

Be careful with the word "just" too as in "abuse rather than just mistreatment."

Choose every single word carefully, when you're trying to figure out what's upsetting in a situation like this, and especially if you're wanting others to help you sort it out. I'm not just being picky, I'm hoping to help you find tricks for figuring out such things in the future in case others aren't around to help.

-=-"How bad was it?"...Our hen just sat on eggs for 21 days, they hatched, and we have been watching them grow lovingly for 3 weeks...so pretty bad. Not in the sense of money, I don't care about that, but in the sense that it is another life. Do you think he should see a psychologist??-=-

You were pregnant for nine months, and have been watching your son grow lovingly for three and a half years. So pretty bad that you equate the life of a three-week-old chick with your son's.

Perhaps I'm exaggerating.
http://sandradodd.com/partners

Whose partner are you?
What are your priorities?

"We never leave him alone with the animals, but they roam freely..."
What?
I think "we never leave him alone with the animals" is clearly false.

"and we have been watching them grow lovingly for 3 weeks"
" the cat is a kitten, rescued just recently from a monkeys grasp...literally, and we all love her so much"

Do "we" (you and your husband and your three children) all love the kitten and the baby chicks equally?
You signed "Mary mama to Dylan (11), Colin (7) and Theo (3)" and then are using "we." Is Theo not part of "we" if you can't generalize your soft spot for animals to him, too?

Was the monkey abusing the kitten or was it mishandling it by accident?

Twice in my life I have seen a dog move kittens, gently, and each time one of the kittens died. Once I was 22 and had never seen it. The dog was very sad that he had killed the kitten. He was trying to help the mom cat, who was a friend of his, and who was spastic from a brain injury at birth herself. The second time, I was in England with Holly. Kirby was home along, was 11 years old, and the dog accidentally killed a kitten, also trying to move it to where the other kittens were. Kirby was really upset, and I was grateful to be awake and on instant message so he could ask me for help and comfort.

Those dogs weren't abusing kittens. They weren't treating them badly for meanness. They weren't "treating them badly" at all. The dogs didn't need to go to therapy. Kirby might have needed to, for having been upset. I coached him about burying the kitten (I think there might have been two, that day; I don't remember at the moment). I felt bad for not being home with him. I might have benefited from a therapy session had one been conveniently available, but I knew how to think my way to clarity.

-=-Do you think he should see a psychologist??-=-
No.
-=- I just wonder if I should seek out intervention. Someone else suggested that I NEEDED to as it was a huge concern.-=-

The huge concern is in you, the mom. Perhaps you yourself should find a therapist to talk to about your own feelings, to get help so that you are helping, and not hurting, your son.

Sandra









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

When my younger brother was about that age he killed a couple of chicks we had.
If I remember correctly he really loved twisting their neck or something
horrible sounding like that.
So I , about 5 years older, hid my 2 chicks under a chair pillow. I forgot about
them.
A couple weeks later I found them squished under that pillow.
I felt really , really bad.
My brother and I grew up  to be loving  with animals.

When my niece was about that age, I was raising a chick that was  so adorable!
So one day my sister was letting her play with the chick while sitting with her
in the floor to facilitate,
My niece got up , tripped and fell on top of the chick killing it.
She also grew up to be very loving with animals.
 Right after I got another chick and I closed the door on its head.
It had to be put down as it was suffering.
I love animals and I have killed a few chicks myself.

MY daugther loves, loves, loves her Guinea Pigs. She was very rough with them
when younger and
most times I would just end the play time with them after a while, for their
safety.
 She would have  hurt them and even killed them if she played unattended with
them.
I was always there  and I knew when to put a stop to the playtime.
I also showed her how to, helped her, stayed with her right there.
Now at 5 she can handle them safely.
If I had let her hurt or killed them  by accident or me neglecting to protect
the animals  it would not
be a good reason to "address it" by getting her mental help!!

Are you afraid because you have heard that serial killers, psychopaths ans
sociopaths usually hurt and kill animals as children??



Alex Polikowsky

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Deb Lewis

***So pretty bad that you equate the life of a three-week-old chick with your son's.***

I don't think she did that. She said she questioned him and talked sternly to him about the chick. At best that did no good whatever and at worst she might have caused some temporary distress to her son. If the mom finds better ways to respond (and better ways to protect the animals in her care) she probably won't cause any long term damage to her son. The chick, however nicely anyone treats it from now on, will remain dead. Dead seems worse than momentarily distressed. (assuming the mom won't repeat her behavior and create some kind of pathology)

***Do you think he should see a psychologist??***

No. I doubt a three year old could have intended to kill the chick. He probably handled it out of curiosity. He may have dropped it. They are very delicate little creatures. They wiggle to be put down and try to rush out of your hands. Even well intentioned adults are discouraged from handling chicks at ranch supply stores because of the risk of death if they are dropped.

Cats are fascinating. I don't think a three year old can be expected to stay away from something as wonderful and interesting as a cat. Since he doesn't understand how to be gentle with the kitten then he should not be handling it. The cat will get bigger and your little boy will get older.

Deb Lewis








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

usuheinerfam

All of this by Deb was a fantastic response.

When my daughter was almost three, I was working in the garden planting strawberries and she was in our shed playing with the chicks. She's a very loving, gentle girl. She had always played so well with them and, well, I had strawberries to plant.

She came out and said "Mommy, all of the chicks went to sleep. I can't wake them up." She'd killed all seven of them - their insides were hanging out their bums, she'd squeezed them so hard. I was gagging inside and *so* sad (I am very sensitive about animals) but I never, ever, EVER thought that she'd abused them - and I never suggested that to her. She'd simply hugged them too hard. It was *my* fault. *I* left her alone with the animals. *I* prioritized planting strawberries over sitting by my daughter helping her play with and love the chicks.

When the animals are that small, you can't be even two feet away - you have to be right. there.

He's not going to have any issues with this in later life unless you make it an issue. Please don't.

Also, don't label him to his siblings. My older daughter was horrified and said "She KILLED them, Mother!" I said "It was an accident. She didn't mean to. I should have been there to help her hold them." We went through a variation of that conversation several times in the next week as my older daughter worked through being compassionate about mistakes other people make that are horrifying to her. It was a good thing for her to learn. I can't imagine having handled it another way and how that label I would have placed on my younger daughter would affect her and her sister's view of her.

Sarah
http://www.unprocessedfamily.blogspot.com

--- In [email protected], "Deb Lewis" <d.lewis@...> wrote:
> ***I know 1 thing everyone will say is that I need to be with him but I am, he does this right in front of us. ***
>
> When people recommend being with a child more it's not just about being in the same house or the same room. It's about being at the side of the child, engaged with him, as much as possible. Be near enough and paying enough attention that you can see or guess by his actions, eye direction, etc., what he might be moving toward so that you can help him. Some kids need a lot more close attention from their parents.
>
> ***It breaks my heart that he would do such a thing, so hard for me to understand.***
>
> It's not his responsibility to keep the animals safe, it's yours. Find a way for your pets to be safe from him. Make sure he's not alone with the animals. Make a room where cats can get away from him that he can't get into.
>
> ***So my question is why is he doing this...***
>
> He's little and doesn't understand and he has too much access to pets without the help of an adult.
>
> ***... and what can I do to help him to understand what he is doing?***
>
> Be kind to your pets and keep them safe from him. Be gentle with him. He's learning more every day.
>

Schuyler

I feel he should have the ability to walk around a bit too without me on top of
him but you are probably right, for now he needs 100% supervision, even if he
doesn't want it.

------------------

Supervision doesn't have to be limiting, supervision can be so totally engaging
that it can be preferable to alone time. Be with your 3 1/2 year old as much as
he needs you and more, be there with a smile and joy and fun things to do. If
you are doing something that you need both eyes and hands and ears for, get him
to engage with you or wait to do those things until you can get someone else to
be with him. Make meals easier and faster to produce. Don't see it as punishing
him to be with him more, see it as a fantastic opportunity to be with your
little boy.


Schuyler








------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-***So pretty bad that you equate the life of a three-week-old chick with your son's.***

-=-I don't think she did that. She said she questioned him and talked sternly to him about the chick. At best that did no good whatever and at worst she might have caused some temporary distress to her son. If the mom finds better ways to respond (and better ways to protect the animals in her care) she probably won't cause any long term damage to her so-=-

The definition of "a life" ranges from microscopic organisms to the quality of human life, though.

I'm accustomed to anti-bacterial hand soap packaging and Lysol spray disinfectant bottles that say Kills 99.9% of germs. Unapologetically, they brag about killing. Is it life?

In India, I stayed with family in Bangalore, and had my own bathroom, on the 13th floor of a high rise housing society. This is a very modern society, and next to the housing society (a walled community, basically) was a huge, brand new mall with a Taco Bell and all kinds of stuff. I had a hand soap dispenser in that bathroom. It said Palmolive. Only 55 rupees. Removes Germs.

http://sandraindia2010.blogspot.com/2010/11/soap-for-jains-and-hindus-and-18.html

People draw the line somewhere. Deb's vegetarian. I had a fish sandwich yesterday. Someone killed that fish, and not accidentally. Fish sandwiches are everywhere in Albuquerque for the next month, until Easter, because it's a very Catholic town and it's lent. Many Catholics will avoid meat for 40 days straight, but they will still kill germs while they wash their hands.

If a mother doesn't side with her own child against other species, some instinct is being ignored. I know the chick didn't attack him, but in an ideal world the chick would have been with its mother, inside chicken wire a three year old couldn't pass through.

If this were a discussion list for Jains or vegetarians, the discussion might be different. If it were a PETA list, maybe the mother would've been jumped on pretty hard for endangering the lives of chickens in the presence of her abusive child. But it's an unschooling list, and my first thought is to side with the child. We're here to help children have safe, happy, joyous lives of learning and loving. So that's my focus. Not making the mother feel better, but helping her see options and tools for making her child feel better.

Sandra





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Lisa

Hi, my son killed two chicks when he was 2 or 3. He had no idea what he was doing. It was totally my fault for leaving him alone with them.

Now that he is 8 he is much more gentle and would never kill anything.

I remember being scared that his roughness meant something bad about him, but it didn't. He is a good and sweet boy.

Lisa

alma

It sounds from your tone and words that you believe there is something deliberate about your son's behaviour. Do you? And if so, can you be sure?

My son, who is 6, finds it very difficult to handle lots of things – toys, things around the house etc. He doesn't seem to have a strong sense of how much pressure he is exerting. He drops and breaks many things. We found with our fluffy dog that she is best off having a pretty short haircut so that he finds it easier to judge the depth of fur and thus how tight to squeeze.

At three and a half I could not have let him hold an animal at all – he would stroke and pet an animal on my lap. We waited until he was 5 to get a dog. Even then he really struggled, both handling the dog and resisting kicking out if she got in his way. We had to be very, very careful for months.

It may be that your third child finds judging these things more difficult than your first two children did, and then you read all sorts of things into it, and that affects the way you see and handle this issue.

Alison
DS (8) and DS (6)


--- In [email protected], Mary Hickcox <disser420@...> wrote:
>
> Hi everyone,  I am at my wit's end with this one and really need some encouragement and advice.  I have a son who is 3 1/2 and has been hurting our animals since he was small.  It goes in phases and we have tried to work with him in several different ways.  Although it is completely against what I believe in, we have even tried time outs to instill in him how not OK this behavior is.  I know 1 thing everyone will say is that I need to be with him but I am, he does this right in front of us.  And I have to go out sometimes, so it is impossible for me personally to have my eyes on him every second.
> Yesterday things got even worse.  I was out getting errands done and my husband was here.  When I returned I learned that he got one of our chicks (while my husband was in the bathroom very quickly) and he killed it.  This of course was so sad and terrible.  I questioned just about everything and spent a lot of time crying.  We showed it to him and tried to talk to him sternly about how bad it was, then buried it together.  It seemed to have an effect on him so I thought maybe this was something he would learn from.  Then this morning he woke up and left the room without waking me (which he always does).  I was half awake when he got up but it took me 1-2 minutes to get out of bed and follow him.  When I came in he was very roughly playing with the cat.  I did not handle it well.  It breaks my heart that he would do such a thing, so hard for me to understand.  I rose my voice and put him into time out in a rough manner (not proud of that).
>  I talked to him more about it afterwards but he just doesn't get it.  So my question is why is he doing this and what can I do to help him to understand what he is doing?
> Thanks so much for any advice.
>
> Mary mama to Dylan (11), Colin (7) and Theo (3)
> "Be who you want your children to be."    Unknown  
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>