angelataustin

Hello. I am a new member and I imagine that learning to read is discussed often, so I hope this is not too redundant.
My son has been plugging away at puzzling out the alphabet and the basic letter sounds. He has spent a lot of time on starfall.com (at his request), and just asking me about every single sign, or package, or whatever with writing on it. He can sound out simple words and is wanting to read more, but is getting frustrated with more complicated words.
What I have been doing is just explaining each word as he encounters it, by saying something like "E and A together usually make the eeee sound" or that sometimes vowels can make different sounds so if the short sound doesn't work try the long sound (he doesn't actually know the terms long and short vowel sounds, I just say the sounds).
My question is, should I be doing more to explain letter and sound patterns? Or should I just keep repeating these things until they stick the way the letter sounds stuck by playing the starfall games? Would it be helpful for him to know that there are these letter patterns and some general rules? Or will he figure that out just from seeing them repeatedly? Or does it depend on the person?
Thanks in advance for any insight you have to offer.

Sandra Dodd

-=-What I have been doing is just explaining each word as he encounters it, by saying something like "E and A together usually make the eeee sound" or that sometimes vowels can make different sounds so if the short sound doesn't work try the long sound (he doesn't actually know the terms long and short vowel sounds, I just say the sounds).-=-

Is he really interested in those things? Or is he enduring the explanations because he thinks they will help?

I would just say the word, and maybe name another word that's like it that he already knows. If he doesn't know another word like that, I would just say the word.

-=-My question is, should I be doing more to explain letter and sound patterns? Or should I just keep repeating these things until they stick the way the letter sounds stuck by playing the starfall games? Would it be helpful for him to know that there are these letter patterns and some general rules? Or will he figure that out just from seeing them repeatedly? Or does it depend on the person?-=-

The principle of natural learning covers that, I think. Don't "just keep repeating" anything. It's not about sticking, it's about his learning.

-=-Would it be helpful for him to know that there are these letter patterns and some general rules? Or will he figure that out just from seeing them repeatedly?-=-

He will figure it out in his own way, if you let him. Answering his questions is nice. Having a program of explaining more and more sounds more like teaching than helping.

What i would do (what I have done) is not to focus on anything that's causing frustration. He will learn to read, and it will be a better memory if it's a happy one. If he's focussed on something that makes him feel less-than or frustrated, he'll have a harder time learning anything. And generally, kids are learning lots of things at the same time. Maybe watch more movies for a while, do more physical things away from printed words. He will see words, but surrounding him with them seems counter-productive if he's not quite ready.

This probably sounds wrong to new unschoolers, but the same way it helps "to sleep on it" when someone's stuck in processing thoughts, it can help to get away from something frustrating, to do something that uses totally different parts of the brain and body.

Do it casually, without saying why. Don't talk about it, just find some really fun things he can do and be learning from for a few weeks or months.

Here are some ideas:
http://sandradodd.com/checklists

Sandra




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Schuyler

I would tell him what the signs say and move on with a joyous day! Each and
every time. I would stop talking about how to sound out the words. The "when two
vowels go walking, the first one does the talking" kind of thing is falling out
of favour with instructors, because there are so many instances when it isn't
true. Robin Coburn posted a message with a lovely example of how it doesn't
work: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/message/59152. There is a
fabulous moment on a British game show called QI about i before e except after
c:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duqlZXiIZqA&playnext=1&list=PL32ADE6C52373FA2A.


But the fact that the rules don't really work isn't why I'd stop trying to
instil them in your son. I'd stop because it isn't working. I'd stop because he
isn't at a point where your words are helping him to understand. I'd stop
because going over and over something again and again can make you sound more
and more like the adults in Charlie Brown: "wahwahwahwahwah." Instead do
fabulously fun and engaging things. Go out and be in the world and find cooler
and more interesting things than garnering frustration over interpreting a sign.
Stay home and snuggle up and watch a favourite show or play a cool computer game
or build fabulous towers with blocks and terrorise the figures you use to
populate the blocks with bouncy balls or whatever. Make wonderful food; dance;
play; run around; explore; turn over rocks and logs; go fishing; go skipping;
draw with chalk; blow bubbles; go swimming; go splashing; put on boots and jump
in puddles; squish your toes in mud; go biking; build with geomags; play a board
game; build card houses and knock them down with paper aeroplanes; use yarn and
make a spider web fort all around the furniture; use blankets and make a more
normal fort and have a picnic under the chairs; find some cardboard boxes and
cut them up and rebuild them with duct tape and create fabulous structures; go
to the grocery store and buy up one of all the different kinds of bubble gum on
offer and see which blows the best bubbles; get different kinds of root beer and
vanilla ice cream and have taste tests for root beer floats; go swing and see
who can swing higher; go sliding and see who slides faster; go roller skating;
go to the zoo and watch the people; go to the zoo and watch the animals. There
is so much more in the world than signs and soundings out. Really.


Schuyler




________________________________
From: angelataustin <angelataustin@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, 20 March, 2011 3:45:55
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Supporting a child in learning to read.

Hello. I am a new member and I imagine that learning to read is discussed often,
so I hope this is not too redundant.
My son has been plugging away at puzzling out the alphabet and the basic letter
sounds. He has spent a lot of time on starfall.com (at his request), and just
asking me about every single sign, or package, or whatever with writing on it.
He can sound out simple words and is wanting to read more, but is getting
frustrated with more complicated words.
What I have been doing is just explaining each word as he encounters it, by
saying something like "E and A together usually make the eeee sound" or that
sometimes vowels can make different sounds so if the short sound doesn't work
try the long sound (he doesn't actually know the terms long and short vowel
sounds, I just say the sounds).
My question is, should I be doing more to explain letter and sound patterns? Or
should I just keep repeating these things until they stick the way the letter
sounds stuck by playing the starfall games? Would it be helpful for him to know
that there are these letter patterns and some general rules? Or will he figure
that out just from seeing them repeatedly? Or does it depend on the person?
Thanks in advance for any insight you have to offer.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

angelataustin

--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-What I have been doing is just explaining each word as he encounters it, by saying something like "E and A together usually make the eeee sound" or that sometimes vowels can make different sounds so if the short sound doesn't work try the long sound (he doesn't actually know the terms long and short vowel sounds, I just say the sounds).-=-
>
> Is he really interested in those things? Or is he enduring the explanations because he thinks they will help?
>
> I would just say the word, and maybe name another word that's like it that he already knows. If he doesn't know another word like that, I would just say the word.

That's a good question. What I can say for sure he is really interested in is being able to identify which letters in the word make which sounds. And he is not satisfied with me just saying the word. He acts like I have spoiled the fun for him when I do that. So he does seem to want some kind of assistance that is less than just the final solution.


> -=-Would it be helpful for him to know that there are these letter patterns and some general rules? Or will he figure that out just from seeing them repeatedly?-=-
>
> He will figure it out in his own way, if you let him. Answering his questions is nice. Having a program of explaining more and more sounds more like teaching than helping.

That makes sense. Maybe when I am thinking of introducing a set of guidelines, I am not waiting for him to form the questions that I am trying to answer. I guess I was thinking of it as an extension of the alphabet--it seemed like knowing there was a finite set of letters with specific sounds helped to solidify things for him.


> What i would do (what I have done) is not to focus on anything that's causing frustration. He will learn to read, and it will be a better memory if it's a happy one. If he's focussed on something that makes him feel less-than or frustrated, he'll have a harder time learning anything. And generally, kids are learning lots of things at the same time. Maybe watch more movies for a while, do more physical things away from printed words. He will see words, but surrounding him with them seems counter-productive if he's not quite ready.

I want to be clear that the focus on this is coming from him. Yes, I introduced the starfall site, but he also has other games and knows how to navigate to whatever he wants. I am not asking him to read things, he notices the signs at the park and wants to figure them out, he will stop a movie to read the title, etc. Writing is everywhere, and yes he has many other interests as well, but this is just the one that I was feeling a little stumped on supporting well. We are both learning so much!

Thank you for the thoughtful response.

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

  When my son was learning to read I simply answered his questions.
If he asked me what that word said, I just read it to him. He  played a little
on Starfall too.
It made not sense to him  in terms of learning to read. Sounding out words were
not the way for him.
It would have made him quite confuse had I tried to "help" him by sounding out
words or letters.
 At six and a half he was reading fluently and a year later he started asking me
things like:
Why does "inset word" sounds like this? Shouldn't it sound like " insert
other pronunciation"?

IT was very  interesting. He still like to play with words and sounds!
 Had I  tried to "teach" him I would have made him very confuse. He can get
frustrated easy.
So Starfall was boring to him. He was into Roblox back then ( an online building
game).
That is how he learned to read. I sat with him hours reading and typing so he
would talk to other players.
Then he could read some and pick out pre-written phrases out of a menu and write
things like: follow me, 

want to be my friend, cool, lets build.
 Then I would sit and help with reading and spell out the words so he could
type. In the beginning I had to point
to the keyboard so he would know which letters. Then I did not need anymore. He
needed me less and less until
he rarely needed me and I would be in another room and just shout  back to him
or write in a piece of paper  for him to copy.
 Then he picked up a book and read a story to his sister and my mouth fell. I
knew he could read and write but
just how well and fast. It was amazing.
      
   
Alex Polikowsky

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

angelataustin

That's very interesting. I have been hearing a lot about whole word learning. But even common words don't seem to recognizable to my son unless they follow the sounds he is expecting the letters to make.
I love the diversity of how we all learn and think!

Schuyler

Wanting to learn to read isn't all that it takes to be able to learn to read.
The neural pieces of the puzzle need to be in place for it all to come together.
For my daughter, Linnaea, she was able to figure out the written word at 6, for
my son, Simon, it wasn't until he was 12. What will it do to your son if those
pieces aren't in place until he's 12? Will he keep homing in on reading and
puzzling over words as his frustration grows? Or can you try and distract him
and move him forward to other things going on, other interesting and engaging
things to do?


I know of a few other later readers who grew increasingly frustrated with their
lack of ability. Their frustration didn't make it come faster, time and growth
and development got them to reading. Some things become clearer if you stop
focusing on them, some things become easier without practice, just with growing.


Schuyler




________________________________
From: angelataustin <angelataustin@...>

I want to be clear that the focus on this is coming from him. Yes, I introduced
the starfall site, but he also has other games and knows how to navigate to
whatever he wants. I am not asking him to read things, he notices the signs at
the park and wants to figure them out, he will stop a movie to read the title,
etc. Writing is everywhere, and yes he has many other interests as well, but
this is just the one that I was feeling a little stumped on supporting well. We
are both learning so much!

Thank you for the thoughtful response.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=- The "when two
vowels go walking, the first one does the talking" kind of thing is falling out
of favour with instructors, because there are so many instances when it isn't
true-=-

Most notably, the word "does" (the only two-vowels-together word in "the rule").

-=- I guess I was thinking of it as an extension of the alphabet--it seemed like knowing there was a finite set of letters with specific sounds helped to solidify things for him.
-=-

Ah. If it were true, that would be better.
#1, it's not true.
#2, if you tell him everything there is to find, what will he learn on his own?

In part it sounds as though you the mom could use more deschooling. I had kids who cared about word histories and trivia (two out of three kids), and it was fun for me to always add one little story. I probably still do that. I think I do that with adults. :-)

For instance, some people, if asked why there's a silent "w" in "two" will say something like "because English is stupid," or "I don't know." But when I was asked, I was able to say "Because it used to be pronounced, and still is in Scotland, as "twa," and it's related to all the "twice, twins, twixt" kinds of words. "Between," I just realized while I was writing this, has that. In the position between two things.

The Deepest, Best Reason for them learning to read themselves:
http://sandradodd.com/r/deeper

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

angelataustin

Ah, I see your point. At this time I would say that he can be frustrated in the moment but persists in his curiosity. He also shows a lot of enthusiasm and excitement around reading. There have been other things (like time concepts) that he has been really curious about but not able to grasp fully and he backed off on his own after a certain point, and he will come back to it occasionally to pick up new bits as they begin to make sense. I was assuming that with this also he would back off it was feeling too much for him. But it would be good to keep in mind that he might not.


--- In [email protected], Schuyler <s.waynforth@...> wrote:
>
> Wanting to learn to read isn't all that it takes to be able to learn to read.
> The neural pieces of the puzzle need to be in place for it all to come together.
> For my daughter, Linnaea, she was able to figure out the written word at 6, for
> my son, Simon, it wasn't until he was 12. What will it do to your son if those
> pieces aren't in place until he's 12? Will he keep homing in on reading and
> puzzling over words as his frustration grows? Or can you try and distract him
> and move him forward to other things going on, other interesting and engaging
> things to do?
>
>
> I know of a few other later readers who grew increasingly frustrated with their
> lack of ability. Their frustration didn't make it come faster, time and growth
> and development got them to reading. Some things become clearer if you stop
> focusing on them, some things become easier without practice, just with growing.
>
>
> Schuyler
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: angelataustin <angelataustin@...>
>
> I want to be clear that the focus on this is coming from him. Yes, I introduced
> the starfall site, but he also has other games and knows how to navigate to
> whatever he wants. I am not asking him to read things, he notices the signs at
> the park and wants to figure them out, he will stop a movie to read the title,
> etc. Writing is everywhere, and yes he has many other interests as well, but
> this is just the one that I was feeling a little stumped on supporting well. We
> are both learning so much!
>
> Thank you for the thoughtful response.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

lalow

When my 8 yeAr old was learning to read, he would notice those kinds of patterns, we were sitting in a waiting room for ex. When he had a seemingly never ending bloody nose and he asked what the word caution said. After I told him he sat there a while and said, " so, sometimes t says sh in some words when it comes in front of ion". From then on he could read and spell tion words. I never really told him those rules unless he asked, but he did seem to find them interesting and they helped him learn to read. My older son, who is 9 now, however, has never had much interest in those patterns and does not appear to be helped by things like that. I actually did try to teach him to read when he was younger and the rules didn't stick. Each word always seemed to be new and different. He is starting to read now and reads very differently than his brother.



--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-What I have been doing is just explaining each word as he encounters it, by saying something like "E and A together usually make the eeee sound" or that sometimes vowels can make different sounds so if the short sound doesn't work try the long sound (he doesn't actually know the terms long and short vowel sounds, I just say the sounds).-=-
>
> Is he really interested in those things? Or is he enduring the explanations because he thinks they will help?
>
> I would just say the word, and maybe name another word that's like it that he already knows. If he doesn't know another word like that, I would just say the word.
>
> -=-My question is, should I be doing more to explain letter and sound patterns? Or should I just keep repeating these things until they stick the way the letter sounds stuck by playing the starfall games? Would it be helpful for him to know that there are these letter patterns and some general rules? Or will he figure that out just from seeing them repeatedly? Or does it depend on the person?-=-
>
> The principle of natural learning covers that, I think. Don't "just keep repeating" anything. It's not about sticking, it's about his learning.
>
> -=-Would it be helpful for him to know that there are these letter patterns and some general rules? Or will he figure that out just from seeing them repeatedly?-=-
>
> He will figure it out in his own way, if you let him. Answering his questions is nice. Having a program of explaining more and more sounds more like teaching than helping.
>
> What i would do (what I have done) is not to focus on anything that's causing frustration. He will learn to read, and it will be a better memory if it's a happy one. If he's focussed on something that makes him feel less-than or frustrated, he'll have a harder time learning anything. And generally, kids are learning lots of things at the same time. Maybe watch more movies for a while, do more physical things away from printed words. He will see words, but surrounding him with them seems counter-productive if he's not quite ready.
>
> This probably sounds wrong to new unschoolers, but the same way it helps "to sleep on it" when someone's stuck in processing thoughts, it can help to get away from something frustrating, to do something that uses totally different parts of the brain and body.
>
> Do it casually, without saying why. Don't talk about it, just find some really fun things he can do and be learning from for a few weeks or months.
>
> Here are some ideas:
> http://sandradodd.com/checklists
>
> Sandra
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Jennifer Schuelein

When Xander was 7 and 8 we worked on sight words. I got a box of sight word flash cards. It was a struggle, but in the end he learned all of the words. It was so frustrating for Xan, but he really wanted to learn to read. He was also trying to learn how to write and this was even more frustrating. No matter how much he wanted to learn, he just was not able to read or write to his satisfaction or at the level he wanted. (Xan wasn't interested in reading beginning books. He wanted novels right away.) I realized that Xan was just not ready to read or write at that time. We stopped doing anything formal right away. Xan started reading for himself at age 10 and is very proficient! I gave him some basics, but he took it from there. I am so glad I didn't make him use the phonics tiles my mother bought for us.

When Xan asked me to read a sign or what not (before he could read), I would just read it and make sure to pronounce it clearly. He would usually repeat it (on his own accord) and then we'd continue on with what we were doing. I kept it simple. I have a bad habit of always reading signs out loud to this day, even without being asked. I just read anything with words anywhere when I'm with Xan and of course now he says, "Yeah mom, I already read that."


--- In [email protected], "angelataustin" <angelataustin@...> wrote:
>
> Hello. I am a new member and I imagine that learning to read is discussed often, so I hope this is not too redundant.
> My son has been plugging away at puzzling out the alphabet and the basic letter sounds. He has spent a lot of time on starfall.com (at his request), and just asking me about every single sign, or package, or whatever with writing on it. He can sound out simple words and is wanting to read more, but is getting frustrated with more complicated words.
> What I have been doing is just explaining each word as he encounters it, by saying something like "E and A together usually make the eeee sound" or that sometimes vowels can make different sounds so if the short sound doesn't work try the long sound (he doesn't actually know the terms long and short vowel sounds, I just say the sounds).
> My question is, should I be doing more to explain letter and sound patterns? Or should I just keep repeating these things until they stick the way the letter sounds stuck by playing the starfall games? Would it be helpful for him to know that there are these letter patterns and some general rules? Or will he figure that out just from seeing them repeatedly? Or does it depend on the person?
> Thanks in advance for any insight you have to offer.
>

jo70mo

One thing I would like some clarification on is that the OP mentioned that her son is asking her about the letters/ sounds etc in order to try and figure it out himself and is frustrated when she just tells him what the word is. So it seems like his question is not what is this word but something different. I may have misunderstood this though. However if he is asking a question about the letters/ phonics/ rules and not asking outright what the word is ,is it then helpful to just answer with what the word is?
If my son asked me what 8 and 8 more was I would tell him the answer. however if he saw the following written down 8 + 8 and asked me what the + meant I would not just tell him the answer is 16 as that wasn't his question. I would also apply this to reading as well. Am I missing something?

I also wonder if there is some perception by the child that this is *THE* way to read and that may be why he is not looking at or grasping whole words and feeling frustrated at not being able to decode everything. My son has not been taught to read but has been exposed to some phonics mainly due to kids TV that my younger DD loves. It became clear to me after a while that he believed he couldn't read because he couldn't decode every word and discounted words that he knew through recognition.
I had a brief and very casual conversation with him about different ways people come to reading and he seemed to relax a lot around it.

For myself I think I learnt to read the whole word way and built up a large lexicon that then enabled me to recognise patterns and decode other words that way but I do not believe I did it through phonics even then - but a more visual pattern recognition.
I remember once having an aha moment on watching Sesame Street showing how the letter e changed the length of the vowel in a word ie. cod or code. However I already "knew" that rule I just had never had a verbal expression for it it was just a pattern I recognised at some level. It never held me back I was a voracious reader from an early age.

I think my son struggled for a short while with the received idea that he needed to use phonics to decode words or he wasn't reading. That was because he had no information that there are other ways of reading and they are not cheating but valid.
He will be 8 tomorrow and would not choose to read a book but his vocabulary of recognisable words is visibly expanding. As he doesn't have to demonstrate any of this to me I can only assume it is probably greater than I know about. He seems happy and continues to gain much pleasure and knowledge from books via me or DH reading to him and the same with computer/DS games.
He loves language and words and plays with them all the time making up wordplays and jokes based on wordplay. His spoken and understood vocabulary is pretty amazing to me. His viewpoint is that the most efficient way at the moment for him to get enjoyment or information from the written word is by us reading it to him. However he is also moving more and more towards reading things for himself.

Anyway my main point was that frustration may come from believing that decoding is the only way to read even if it doesn't come easily. That may not be the case for this child but, as there seems to be a great deal of emphasis on phonics on kids TV (at least in the UK),it may be the case for others.
Jo

k

>>>I want to be clear that the focus on this is coming from him.<<<

Karl was interested in thinking about numbers when he was 3 and that
came very easily for him. He was interested reading when he was 4 and
5 years old, and even though he had figured out some things such as
the fact that letters are doing something to construct the words, he
was not quite able to see where and how. It was the same about
writing, where tears fell over not being satisfied with how he was
writing something (even though I was impressed at what he knew!). I
interacted with him for a bit and then said that it takes time to find
what makes sense for him in order to write (or read), and that he will
find most of it by accident not on purpose.

There were several times that frustration mounted quickly. Frustration
is anxiety, an expression of fear. When fear happens, learning shuts
down. It shuts down the ability to reason in favor of quick reaction.
It favors tunnel vision and shuts down peripheral vision, making the
ability to see patterns impossible.

Even when a child is ready and able to see how something works, taking
frequent breaks doing fun stuff for fun's sake puts breaks on fear and
frustration so that learning CAN take place and the child can see the
pieces of the puzzle coming together.

More times than not, distraction can be much better for learning than
concentration.

~Katherine

Sandra Dodd

-=-So it seems like his question is not what is this word but something different. I may have misunderstood this though. However if he is asking a question about the letters/ phonics/ rules and not asking outright what the word is ,is it then helpful to just answer with what the word is?
If my son asked me what 8 and 8 more was I would tell him the answer. however if he saw the following written down 8 + 8 and asked me what the + meant I would not just tell him the answer is 16 as that wasn't his question. I would also apply this to reading as well. Am I missing something? -=

If the mother believes that he won't learn to read unless she continues to recite rules at him, what's missing is the journey toward solid,effective, peaceful unschooling.

-=-It became clear to me after a while that he believed he couldn't read because he couldn't decode every word and discounted words that he knew through recognition. I had a brief and very casual conversation with him about different ways people come to reading and he seemed to relax a lot around it. -=-

So you understood that.
It seems perhaps the original poster wasn't as clear on it as you were.

Sandra




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-There were several times that frustration mounted quickly. Frustration
is anxiety, an expression of fear. When fear happens, learning shuts
down. It shuts down the ability to reason in favor of quick reaction.
It favors tunnel vision and shuts down peripheral vision, making the
ability to see patterns impossible.-=-

Just this morning I put up a quote from someone about agitation (elevated heartbeat) making thought impossible.

I linked it here:
http://sandradodd.com/breathing

and the original (it's not long, and has a nice photo) is here:
http://archive.aweber.com/marriagemoats/1THrY/h/Marriage_Moats_Flooding.htm


Getting away from words/reading/signs for long stretches at a time (hours, or weeks) WILL help with reading, even though it seems to someone who's invested in rushing a child along that it would not help at all.

http://sandradodd.com/deschooling

Stepping away from the reading, turning another directions, and filling the horizon with pictures, music, activities will help the mother see other kinds of learning, and give them both a chance to breathe, and smile, and relax together.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

jo70mo

I guess I just felt it was a bit harsh to answer a child's actual question with an answer to a different question. However I completely agree with not using it in anyway as a teaching point and to consider that his needing to ask the questions may be coming from a different place than readiness and natural inclination. Also as suggested to move the focus way way away from the written word as much as possible and have more fun,fun,fun. As well as more deschooling around reading and learning in general.
My other point was just using my DS as an example to try to put across to the OP the possibility that just because a child is trying hard to use a certain method or do a certain thing does not always mean he is naturally drawn to it or ready for it. It may be because he believes he should be able to do it/ is scared that he won't be able to do it/ likes how much a parent likes him doing it or thinks that is the only way to do it. So not necessarily a natural inclination for phonics.
With my DS, given his personality, age and my knowledge of him, a short casual conversation at an opportune moment was fine. There were probably other ways I could have approached it but that seemed like best fit with my knowledge of both of us. However I had to believe and trust in what I was saying ie that reading could happen in many ways. Also my son wasn't particularly focussed on trying to "do" phonics but seemed to have developed certain beliefs about reading. So my approach would probably be too direct and wordy for the OP and her child at the moment and I don't want that to be taken as my advice to her.
Jo



--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-So it seems like his question is not what is this word but something different. I may have misunderstood this though. However if he is asking a question about the letters/ phonics/ rules and not asking outright what the word is ,is it then helpful to just answer with what the word is?
> If my son asked me what 8 and 8 more was I would tell him the answer. however if he saw the following written down 8 + 8 and asked me what the + meant I would not just tell him the answer is 16 as that wasn't his question. I would also apply this to reading as well. Am I missing something? -=
>
> If the mother believes that he won't learn to read unless she continues to recite rules at him, what's missing is the journey toward solid,effective, peaceful unschooling.
>
> -=-It became clear to me after a while that he believed he couldn't read because he couldn't decode every word and discounted words that he knew through recognition. I had a brief and very casual conversation with him about different ways people come to reading and he seemed to relax a lot around it. -=-
>
> So you understood that.
> It seems perhaps the original poster wasn't as clear on it as you were.
>
> Sandra
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

angelataustin

--- In [email protected], "jo70mo" <jo70mo@...> wrote:
>
> One thing I would like some clarification on is that the OP mentioned that her son is asking her about the letters/ sounds etc in order to try and figure it out himself and is frustrated when she just tells him what the word is. So it seems like his question is not what is this word but something different. I may have misunderstood this though. However if he is asking a question about the letters/ phonics/ rules and not asking outright what the word is ,is it then helpful to just answer with what the word is?
> If my son asked me what 8 and 8 more was I would tell him the answer. however if he saw the following written down 8 + 8 and asked me what the + meant I would not just tell him the answer is 16 as that wasn't his question. I would also apply this to reading as well. Am I missing something?


Well, I mentioned that because the first couple of response I got suggested just telling him what the word is instead of explaining the word. So I was trying to clarify that, no I don't think it is helpful to just answer with the what the word is, I am just trying to figure out the best way to help figure out how to sound out the word, which IS what he is asking me to help with.

> I also wonder if there is some perception by the child that this is *THE* way to read and that may be why he is not looking at or grasping whole words and feeling frustrated at not being able to decode everything. My son has not been taught to read but has been exposed to some phonics mainly due to kids TV that my younger DD loves. It became clear to me after a while that he believed he couldn't read because he couldn't decode every word and discounted words that he knew through recognition.
> I had a brief and very casual conversation with him about different ways people come to reading and he seemed to relax a lot around it.


It is possible that he has gotten that message inadvertently, but we really don't watch that kind of television, and I only introduced the starfall website because he was ALWAYS asking me about letters. Although I really think this is his style. He likes to pick things apart and analyze the bits in other areas as well. But it is also possible that the strategy may be less successful for him in reading, or may not be the only strategy he needs to succeed.

> For myself I think I learnt to read the whole word way and built up a large lexicon that then enabled me to recognise patterns and decode other words that way but I do not believe I did it through phonics even then - but a more visual pattern recognition.
> I remember once having an aha moment on watching Sesame Street showing how the letter e changed the length of the vowel in a word ie. cod or code. However I already "knew" that rule I just had never had a verbal expression for it it was just a pattern I recognised at some level. It never held me back I was a voracious reader from an early age.


> Anyway my main point was that frustration may come from believing that decoding is the only way to read even if it doesn't come easily. That may not be the case for this child but, as there seems to be a great deal of emphasis on phonics on kids TV (at least in the UK),it may be the case for others.
> Jo

Thank you for this. So I think I am hearing that maybe showing him that there are some other strategies to figure out words besides just the sequence of sounds might be helpful too.

angelataustin

--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=- The "when two
> vowels go walking, the first one does the talking" kind of thing is falling out
> of favour with instructors, because there are so many instances when it isn't
> true-=-
>
> Most notably, the word "does" (the only two-vowels-together word in "the rule").

That is a nice little rhyme but it is misleading. I never had the misfortune of hearing it until a couple of months ago. It really does not make sense. It is not even true for most vowel pairs, and is also only sometimes true for the ones where it does apply.

> -=- I guess I was thinking of it as an extension of the alphabet--it seemed like knowing there was a finite set of letters with specific sounds helped to solidify things for him.
> -=-
>
> Ah. If it were true, that would be better.
> #1, it's not true.
> #2, if you tell him everything there is to find, what will he learn on his own?

Well, it is true that there is a finite set of letters in the English language, and a reasonably well defined set of sounds. There is not a one to one correspondence to be sure. But each letter specific sounds that are associated with it and those are fixed and there are sounds that occur more frequently that others. So if you are saying that the goofy rules the "two vowels" thing is not true I agree. But there are some truths that can be understood about our language.

Well, when he discovered all the letters there are to find, he then learned some of the sounds associated with them on his own and then how those sounds combine to form some words, and then how his grandmother pronounces some sounds differently because she speaks Spanish, etc. etc. etc. Basically he went deeper with it.


> In part it sounds as though you the mom could use more deschooling. I had kids who cared about word histories and trivia (two out of three kids), and it was fun for me to always add one little story. I probably still do that. I think I do that with adults. :-)

This is possible and that's why I am here asking for advice. :) I think also, because this is a topic that I have a deep interest in (and I mean an interest in language in general, not an investment in my son learning to read right now) I am brimming with excitement to share what I know and love.

plaidpanties666

"jo70mo" <jo70mo@...> wrote:
>
> One thing I would like some clarification on is that the OP mentioned that her son is asking her about the letters/ sounds etc in order to try and figure it out himself and is frustrated when she just tells him what the word is. So it seems like his question is not what is this word but something different.
***************

It could help for mom to look for other ways to play with words and sounds - ways that don't necessarily look like "reading". Playing with alliteration is fun for some kids. Or rhyming games. Singing and reading poetry - silly stuff with goofy words that are fun to try to sing or say. Tongue twisters. If he likes those sorts of things then playing that was *is* helping him learn about how sounds make up words.

Magnetic letters are fun for this, too - spell out some gibberish and pronounce it. Don't bother to talk about rules, do it for the fun of it. If he's the sort of person who will find phonetic information useful learning to read, then he'll derive the rules on his own. But he might not find that kind of information useful. Have fun to have fun, not with the expectation of a specific outcome.

---Meredith

Sandra Dodd

-=-Well, I mentioned that because the first couple of response I got suggested just telling him what the word is instead of explaining the word. So I was trying to clarify that, no I don't think it is helpful to just answer with the what the word is, I am just trying to figure out the best way to help figure out how to sound out the word, which IS what he is asking me to help with.-=-

If you already knew what answer you wanted, and the answers here are wrong, then it seems (perhaps) we were being quizzed? Or we were being invited to rubber-stamp a method already decided on?

We're talking about natural learning, not about how to justify hanging on to more traditional ideas about how to learn.

BUT... if a child asks a question, I would answer it.
I would not take that as an invitation to continue to lecture or explain past a few words.
I would not take it as evidence that he wanted a similar answer every time something like that came up.

-=-It is possible that he has gotten that message inadvertently, but we really don't watch that kind of television, and I only introduced the starfall website because he was ALWAYS asking me about letters.-=-

Kirby asked about the names of letters when he could hardly speak a word otherwise. He was especially interested in the letters that made up his name. But he didn't read very early. Seven/eight, he was fluent.

-=- He likes to pick things apart and analyze the bits in other areas as well. But it is also possible that the strategy may be less successful for him in reading, or may not be the only strategy he needs to succeed.
-=-

The use of the terms "strategy" and "succeed" make me think, again, that this is indicating a lack of deschooling in the mother. And the problem with that, for this list, is that it could damage the ability of unschooling to succeed. The primary strategy for unschooling involves deschooling.

http://sandradodd.com/deschooling

Although this list can be used to discuss how to support a child who is learning to read, the only kind of support that ultimately should be given here is that which supports natural learning and unschooling at the same time.

Sandra




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Sandra Dodd

-=- So if you are saying that the goofy rules the "two vowels" thing is not true I agree. But there are some truths that can be understood about our language.-=-

Yes. Let him discover some of those truths himself, with a little help, over time. Don't rush to discover them all and check the timer to see how quickly they were understood.

When Easter eggs are hidden, there are some truths that can be understood. The mother could show a child where each one is, but that wouldn't be the child hunting the eggs. That would be the child picking up the eggs the mother remembered hiding, or found.

Each time the mother does the finding and explaining of something the child could have, and would have, found on his own and joyfully, unschooling slips further away for that family.

-=- I think also, because this is a topic that I have a deep interest in (and I mean an interest in language in general, not an investment in my son learning to read right now) I am brimming with excitement to share what I know and love.-=-

I'm like that with the etymology of words.
http://sandradodd.com/etymology

Maybe he would like some of those ideas.

Sandra




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Colleen

*****For instance, some people, if asked why there's a silent "w" in "two" will say something like "because English is stupid," or "I don't know."*****

My 8 year old reads, but is only just beginning to show an interest in spelling. Lately, he likes to try to spell words out loud while he's talking. This is what he said (with a giggling, light-hearted tone) just this afternoon about silent letters –

"Mom I'll be right back. Back. B-A-C-K… is that right, or do I need a silent E at the end? I don't think I do this time. And why is silent E silent? Don't they make other silent letters too? Like K-N-O-W with silent K? Sometimes I think every word should just end with an E because it doesn't seem to matter if it's there or not. I mean, since it's silent, when they were inventing words, couldn't they have just left that out?? Or maybe they could have made it an O or a K or a Z that ended all the words. You know – since it doesn't matter anyway."

He didn't want answers to his questions or information about words or silent letters – he just wanted to share what he thought was a funny thing, and then he moved on to battle his Star Wars figures. If we had tried to teach him to read or spell instead of letting him learn his own way, I can only guess that he might have found the "rules" of the English language frustrating. Instead he finds them amusing :)

Colleen

Pam Sorooshian

> I am just trying to figure out the best way to help figure out how to
> sound out the word, which IS what he is asking me to help with.-=-

I wonder, though, if asking for help in "reading" the word is being
interpreted by you as asking for help in sounding it out. Do you, maybe,
equate learning to read with "sounding it out?" That's a very limited
idea of what reading is, but it would explain why you think there are
all these rules he'll need to learn.

I have a feeling that you don't really grasp how much more there is to
learning to read than learning all the "sounding out" rules. I have
three kids who each learned to read in their own natural way and those
ways were each very very different from the others. The most
interesting, to me, was watching Rosie (now 20) learn to read. She did
not even know the sounds of all the letters of the alphabet when she was
already reading quite a bit. She had learned to recognize words - not to
sound them out. She learned to recognize a LOT of words - hundreds -
before she started to use the sounds to figure words out. It was super
obvious when Rosie was from about 4 to 8 years old that her brain was
not able to put together sounds and symbols - she seemed unable to
really "hear" the distinct sounds in a word until she was much older -
closer to 13 years old.

If a kid is interested in "sounding out," they will be very specific in
their questions or comments. I remember Roxana asking about the sounds
the letter "O" makes - and thinking it was interesting that it didn't
always make an "O" sound (as in "oh"). And at that time she sort of
collected words with "O" in them and was trying to find all the possible
sounds that an "O" could make. Roxana is STILL very interested in sounds
- at 23 years old she still finds language fascinating.

So - part of the problem I have with giving reading instructions
(teaching the child the rules of sounding out, for example) is that it
presupposes a certain way of learning - that a kid should learn to
"sound out" words in order to learn to read. What if that isn't the
natural way that kid's brain works? It could have unintended negative
consequences. AND it isn't necessary. Have fun - if a kid is asking
questions, answer them with brief tidbits of helpful information and be
sensitive - don't overload. If a kid is indicating an interest in the
sounds that make up a word, then have some fun with that. But if a kid
is wanting to read, don't assume he is interested in how to "sound out"
words. Maybe he wishes he didn't need to depend on mom to read for him,
but that isn't the same thing as being ready and able to sound out
words. Maybe he's a kid who won't learn to sound out words for years
more - maybe he'll learn to recognize a LOT of words, first.

If you have a rich environment where you introduce a variety of
activities and games and discussions and so on, and if you stick with
the policy of only continuing doing things that are enjoyable, and if
you're sensitive to whether or not the child really IS enjoying whatever
you're doing, then I think you're safe from creating problems.

I believe that many learning disabilities (so-called) are caused by
early instruction that is not in line with a child's own learning style.
Pushing in the wrong direction can, imo, be harmful.

-pam



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Pam Sorooshian

On 3/21/2011 11:57 AM, Colleen wrote:
> If we had tried to teach him to read or spell instead of letting him
> learn his own way, I can only guess that he might have found the
> "rules" of the English language frustrating. Instead he finds them
> amusing :)

You could say, "Yeah, pretty interesting, isn't it. Some people call it
"the magic e" because it can change the sound of the letters before it."
Give him an example or two (if he's interested) such as: pal/pale or
mat/mate.

I mean - if he's interested, then share some new little tidbit that he
might not have thought of yet.

-pam

Jenny Cyphers

***So I think I am hearing that maybe showing him that there are some other
strategies to figure out words besides just the sequence of sounds might be
helpful too.***


It seemed clear to me, when Chamille was young, that she didn't get phonics at
all. She was a word collector. She'd remember words, how to spell them, how to
say them, in short, she'd recognize them. At that point I went around putting
stickers on things all over the house with the word written on it. I had the
whole bathroom stickered for a long time. There was a sticker that said
"mirror", or "toothpaste", or "toilet", etc. Those stickers were up for over a
year.

There were several other huge contributing factors to Chamille learning to read.
One was video games, specifically ToonTown, and the other was books on tape and
cd. Book for book, she'd absorbed more than her peers, her cousins included,
who were competitive school readers but didn't own any books at home. She
watched movies that were based on books. She did book and movie comparisons.

So, by the time she could read a whole book, which was a manga, at the age of
11, she'd already had years of language and word usage and word recognition.
She understands grammar, she spells almost perfectly, and she knows the
difference between "their", "they're", and "there". School friends go to her to
make sure that they have it right. I didn't teach her any of that. She
absorbed it from living a life full of good fiction!

Her younger sister, who is 9, can read almost everything. For the last couple
of years she has relied almost entirely on phonics. She sounds words out. It
is just what she does. I correct her when she gets it wrong and I'm patient
while reading with her to give her a chance to figure it out first. It's a slow
and sometimes tedious process. When she gets a word wrong and I say it right,
her response is generally one of interest and amusement at how it's spelled so
different from how it's spoken.

Margaux has never been all that interested in story books. She likes picture
books. She still reads her picture books, especially the ones with any touch
and feel, or look and find. She LOVES "I Spy" books! She likes to go online
and look up youtube videos and play Facebook games or chat there. These days, I
rarely need to spell out a word for her. She doesn't always spell it right, but
she'll spell how it sounds and others can still read and understand what she's
written. Sometimes I correct her and sometimes I don't.

Just like all kinds of learning, there is a point at which a kid will be on the
cusp of figuring something out, where there is frustration before understanding.
Reading is no different than say, learning how to use scissors. There will
likely be frustration and mistakes, but if it's fun, they'll still figure it
out!





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Jenny Cyphers

***Magnetic letters are fun for this, too - spell out some gibberish and
pronounce it. Don't bother to talk about rules, do it for the fun of it.***

YES! We have magnetic letters that get played with all the time, alongside a
huge chalkboard in the kitchen! Those things are wonderful ways to play with
letters and words! Dry erase boards are nice too. Margaux and I used to play a
fun game of hide the word with her DS. I'd type something in with the stylus,
then draw over it so that the whole screen was blacked out. She's have to go
and use the stylus on erase and she'd uncover the mystery message. We also used
to play with foam letters in the bathtub. We'd float words and messages.






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jo70mo

> Thank you for this. So I think I am hearing that maybe showing him >that there are some other strategies to figure out words besides >just the sequence of sounds might be helpful too.

Hi Angela,
this isn't really what I am trying to suggest. I am saying that it might help you to understand that there may be other reasons why he is so invested in phonics at the moment and not necessarily to do with relaxed natural learning. I don't think showing him that there are other strategies is the route for you at this point as it could easily be teaching and overwhelm with another set of rules and variables. My DS is older than yours and we have a different history.

At this stage I would just be open in your own mind to the fact that there are many many ways he might come to reading. You don't need to show him what they are or might be. It can be exciting when you think your child is starting to read and with all your unschooling enthusiasm you want to support it but often our thoughts about how to support it fall back to schooly techniques and resources. Actually supporting him is just having fun and providing rich experiences for him they don't have to be tailored to reading at all. and as he is showing frustration they probably should be distracting from the written word and doing other things instead.
Jo

Jenny Cyphers

***It was super
obvious when Rosie was from about 4 to 8 years old that her brain was
not able to put together sounds and symbols - she seemed unable to
really "hear" the distinct sounds in a word until she was much older -
closer to 13 years old.***

Oh, yes, Chamille didn't get phonics at all until AFTER she already knew how to
read. She watched PBS kids shows that were all about phonics, but she didn't
pick up on it, she was too busy being interested in other aspects of those
shows!





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lylaw

this study is interesting and speaks to the advantages of children exploring and learning things on their own, vs. being “taught”:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/16/opinion/16gopnik.html?_r=1
this other, older article by alfie kohn gets at the same concepts, slightly different way –
http://www.alfiekohn.org/teaching/edweek/rotten.htm
neither are unschooling articles but they do speak to the underlying principles of learning and intrinsic motivation that are so important with unschooling.
lyla

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Deb Lewis

***We have magnetic letters that get played with all the time, alongside a
huge chalkboard in the kitchen!***

Dylan didn't find magnetic letters super interesting but he did like the little words from the various magnetic poetry kits we had. We had some Mag Heads, different shapes that could put together to make abstract looking characters, and he liked incorporating the words from magnetic poetry into his creations. Making hats or clothing our of words like "bird" or "tent" or having words like "tired" or "out" in the place of eyes. He got to recognize many words but was also happy to play with the magnetic words without always knowing what the word was.

Those magnets sometimes got used in train or other play. Dylan would set up his Thomas trains and if he thought a place needed trees but didn't have any more little wooden trees to put there, he would get the magnet that said "tree" and the space where he put it became the forest. The word "rock" was an obstruction on the tracks, or a rock slide, or a boulder a monster might hide behind.

We all played with those. David, who in those days would be gone to work before Dylan woke up, would leave messages for Dylan on the refrigerator. "Cow will eat your shoe" or "frog dance on jelly" and Dylan would be so excited to go see what his dad had left him and maybe make some little message for his dad to find that night when he got home. We still have refrigerator poetry and still leave messages for each other.

For Dylan reading came gradually over years and whole word recognition was the biggest part of how he learned. He read books beyond his reading ability quite happily by simply skipping the words he did not recognize. Occasionally he asked what a word was, but only if it was an interesting looking word, or if it was repeated often enough for him to wonder whether it held some significance to the story.

Deb Lewis

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