Defending families, and the partnership of parents
Sandra Dodd
I've just had a brief correspondence with a dad. The first part of the exchange was about how rare it is for a dad to be the parent who finds unschooling first. These responses, though, I thought I should share more widely. I made a few tiny changes to avoid identifying the family. If anyone does know who it is, don't mention that, please. The ideas stand without any particulars.
Sandra
-=-I've been in correspondence with Dayna Martin too and she said that the boys were better off even if just one parent has taken on board Holt, Ilyich, you(!), and other unschoolers. I'm constantly stepping in against the reward-and-punishment stuff and general disdain [the wife/mom] treats them with, and what they say at committee meetings at preschool now stuns me, even though this is supposed to be a fairly enlightened one. -=-
I disagree with Dayna Martin. I don't advise dividing a family over this at ALL.
Please read these links, and remember that you were your wife's partner first. It's more important for the children that their parents love and respect each other than where and how they learn to read.
http://sandradodd.com/gradualchange
http://sandradodd.com/partners
http://sandradodd.com/divorce
I think you should go along with what your wife is doing without constant argument. If she comes to see the problems herself, she'll have your research and knowledge to go to immediately. If you are set up as an adversary, she only wins if you lose. That's why it's so important to attend to your partnership.
If (as you've paraphrased Dayna as saying) one parent takes on board (partners with?) Holt (a dead guy who had no children), Illich (who was writing about society, and not about parenting, really), or me, or any other unschooler instead of his or her spouse, problems for the children begin right then.
A strong marriage and a trusting relationship will make your wife more open to hearing what you think. If she hasn't seen the children have any problems yet, she might not be ready to learn about alternative education.
-=- I'm constantly stepping in against the reward-and-punishment stuff and general disdain [she] treats them with-=-
Constantly... against...
There is a book you might want to consider reading (or you can listen to it at audible.com) called
The Unexpected Legacy of Divorce: A 25 Year Landmark Study
My best advice for you is to pour love and attention on your wife, and stop constantly acting against her. Drop the push for a while and see how things go if you stop pushing and pulling.
Sandra
__________________________
I wrote another note after that one:
__________________________
I thought of something else, about "constantly. . . against"
http://sandradodd.com/negativity
Find the best in each moment, the best moments in each hour, and by focusing on what is sweet and good, you will help your wife see the sweetness and goodness, too.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra
-=-I've been in correspondence with Dayna Martin too and she said that the boys were better off even if just one parent has taken on board Holt, Ilyich, you(!), and other unschoolers. I'm constantly stepping in against the reward-and-punishment stuff and general disdain [the wife/mom] treats them with, and what they say at committee meetings at preschool now stuns me, even though this is supposed to be a fairly enlightened one. -=-
I disagree with Dayna Martin. I don't advise dividing a family over this at ALL.
Please read these links, and remember that you were your wife's partner first. It's more important for the children that their parents love and respect each other than where and how they learn to read.
http://sandradodd.com/gradualchange
http://sandradodd.com/partners
http://sandradodd.com/divorce
I think you should go along with what your wife is doing without constant argument. If she comes to see the problems herself, she'll have your research and knowledge to go to immediately. If you are set up as an adversary, she only wins if you lose. That's why it's so important to attend to your partnership.
If (as you've paraphrased Dayna as saying) one parent takes on board (partners with?) Holt (a dead guy who had no children), Illich (who was writing about society, and not about parenting, really), or me, or any other unschooler instead of his or her spouse, problems for the children begin right then.
A strong marriage and a trusting relationship will make your wife more open to hearing what you think. If she hasn't seen the children have any problems yet, she might not be ready to learn about alternative education.
-=- I'm constantly stepping in against the reward-and-punishment stuff and general disdain [she] treats them with-=-
Constantly... against...
There is a book you might want to consider reading (or you can listen to it at audible.com) called
The Unexpected Legacy of Divorce: A 25 Year Landmark Study
My best advice for you is to pour love and attention on your wife, and stop constantly acting against her. Drop the push for a while and see how things go if you stop pushing and pulling.
Sandra
__________________________
I wrote another note after that one:
__________________________
I thought of something else, about "constantly. . . against"
http://sandradodd.com/negativity
Find the best in each moment, the best moments in each hour, and by focusing on what is sweet and good, you will help your wife see the sweetness and goodness, too.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
A defense of the idea (and clarification) from my correpondent:
"I need to clarify on what Dayna has said. I don't think she was suggesting go 'against' your wife, and even less so 'constantly'. She just meant that we're better off than most in that one of us has taken up these ideas in alternative learning, perceptions of children on board, but as you say, she was clear you go for a better, loving relationship between the parents first. "
Good.
I feel better. :-)
Sandra
"I need to clarify on what Dayna has said. I don't think she was suggesting go 'against' your wife, and even less so 'constantly'. She just meant that we're better off than most in that one of us has taken up these ideas in alternative learning, perceptions of children on board, but as you say, she was clear you go for a better, loving relationship between the parents first. "
Good.
I feel better. :-)
Sandra
Deb Lewis
***I think you should go along with what your wife is doing without constant argument. ***
Dylan's life would have been a lot different if I had gone along with David. It wouldn't have been as nice. David's a good man and wouldn't have been a child abuser if I hadn't been around but he would have parented in pretty much the same way as his parents. Not horrible, but not as good as it could have been.
I coaxed David a lot. I talked with him about parenting and about talking nicer to and about Dylan. I talked with him about being more positive. When he seemed stuck in negative thinking I asked him to stop a moment before he said the thing he was about to say and think of three or five (or some number of) positive things first. It helped him. And it was better for Dylan.
But I also paid attention to what worried David. If he was only seeing Dylan watch TV and it was bothering him, I tried to change things up. I'd offer games in the evening when David was home or a walk down to the river. Paying attention to David's concerns helped me not be complacent. I love TV but TV shouldn't be the best thing in a kid's life. Our life at home was happy and peaceful but it was good for me to remember to think about whether Dylan's life was also interesting and stimulating.
Once David thought Dylan ought to have a math book. I told him to look for one he liked, and wanted to do with Dylan, and that maybe they'd have some fun. He never did get a book or make Dylan do math problems but knowing he was worried about it helped me. When Dylan counted his money or tallied the score in a game or built a something or other I made a point of telling David all about it.
I think you can help a partner be a nicer parent or get closer to unschooling without fighting. If you can, I think you should. I don't regret helping David get more comfortable with unschooling. I didn't expect him to just accept my crazy ideas and stuff down any concerns he had. I took his concerns seriously. I tried hard to find creative, peaceful ways to eliminate or reduce them.
Deb Lewis
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Dylan's life would have been a lot different if I had gone along with David. It wouldn't have been as nice. David's a good man and wouldn't have been a child abuser if I hadn't been around but he would have parented in pretty much the same way as his parents. Not horrible, but not as good as it could have been.
I coaxed David a lot. I talked with him about parenting and about talking nicer to and about Dylan. I talked with him about being more positive. When he seemed stuck in negative thinking I asked him to stop a moment before he said the thing he was about to say and think of three or five (or some number of) positive things first. It helped him. And it was better for Dylan.
But I also paid attention to what worried David. If he was only seeing Dylan watch TV and it was bothering him, I tried to change things up. I'd offer games in the evening when David was home or a walk down to the river. Paying attention to David's concerns helped me not be complacent. I love TV but TV shouldn't be the best thing in a kid's life. Our life at home was happy and peaceful but it was good for me to remember to think about whether Dylan's life was also interesting and stimulating.
Once David thought Dylan ought to have a math book. I told him to look for one he liked, and wanted to do with Dylan, and that maybe they'd have some fun. He never did get a book or make Dylan do math problems but knowing he was worried about it helped me. When Dylan counted his money or tallied the score in a game or built a something or other I made a point of telling David all about it.
I think you can help a partner be a nicer parent or get closer to unschooling without fighting. If you can, I think you should. I don't regret helping David get more comfortable with unschooling. I didn't expect him to just accept my crazy ideas and stuff down any concerns he had. I took his concerns seriously. I tried hard to find creative, peaceful ways to eliminate or reduce them.
Deb Lewis
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=- I don't regret helping David get more comfortable with unschooling. I didn't expect him to just accept my crazy ideas and stuff down any concerns he had. I took his concerns seriously. I tried hard to find creative, peaceful ways to eliminate or reduce them. -=-
Everything Deb talked about sounded just like things that happened here, when Kirby was six and seven and Keith didn't totally get it.
The difference between this and my side-email situation was that this is Deb helping David to find creative and peaceful ways to reduce his concerns. The other sounded like one parent waiting quietly until the other parent was too harsh and then criticizing that. "Constantly." (Not my word choice.)
Just the slight shift of being pro-child rather than anti-spouse would make a big difference, as long as it can be done in such a way that it doesn't feel like a tug-of-war with the child as the rope.
The other day, Keith and I washed a cat. Twice. In a sink full of warm water. It feels good to do something like that together. Washing a cat is kind of a big deal. The cat went along with it because she had somehow been rolled in a serious amount of poo, and it had dried.
Many situations with our kids have been that kind of teamwork, without the poo (usually), and it felt good to work together to have a cool result and a happy child.
If the relationship between parents is antagonistic, it's the same as any kind of antagonistic arrangement. Only as a team can you both win. As opponents, there's always one loser (and when it's a marriage, that makes two).
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Everything Deb talked about sounded just like things that happened here, when Kirby was six and seven and Keith didn't totally get it.
The difference between this and my side-email situation was that this is Deb helping David to find creative and peaceful ways to reduce his concerns. The other sounded like one parent waiting quietly until the other parent was too harsh and then criticizing that. "Constantly." (Not my word choice.)
Just the slight shift of being pro-child rather than anti-spouse would make a big difference, as long as it can be done in such a way that it doesn't feel like a tug-of-war with the child as the rope.
The other day, Keith and I washed a cat. Twice. In a sink full of warm water. It feels good to do something like that together. Washing a cat is kind of a big deal. The cat went along with it because she had somehow been rolled in a serious amount of poo, and it had dried.
Many situations with our kids have been that kind of teamwork, without the poo (usually), and it felt good to work together to have a cool result and a happy child.
If the relationship between parents is antagonistic, it's the same as any kind of antagonistic arrangement. Only as a team can you both win. As opponents, there's always one loser (and when it's a marriage, that makes two).
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Deb Lewis
***My best advice for you is to pour love and attention on your wife, and stop constantly acting against her. Drop the push for a while and see how things go if you stop pushing and pulling. ***
Yes! If you can do for your wife what you want to do for your children you'll make your home more peaceful. If your wife feels the benefits of your way of thinking and being she will be more likely to want her kids to feel those benefits too. She is more likely to be positive, generous, kind and forgiving with your children if she feels those things herself. Without punishment or disdain in her own life she won't have any to give away.
Deb Lewis
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Yes! If you can do for your wife what you want to do for your children you'll make your home more peaceful. If your wife feels the benefits of your way of thinking and being she will be more likely to want her kids to feel those benefits too. She is more likely to be positive, generous, kind and forgiving with your children if she feels those things herself. Without punishment or disdain in her own life she won't have any to give away.
Deb Lewis
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
HA
I get the feeling the dad in the situation thinks his wife is doing things "the wrong way" because she's ignorant of "the right" one. I did that for awhile, and wish that someone would have smacked me upside the head. Dismissing your spouse's opinions won't help your kids or your family. Trust me ... I know this firsthand. :((
My advice would be to:
* Talk to the wife about how you want things handled and why, and listen to her opinion with an open mind. Be willing to give and take, and do what works best for the family as a whole regardless of how unschool-ish it is. (You can't really shop the "respectful, joyful art of unschooling" when you're acting controlling and judgmental when she's not doing things your way.) AND...
* THANK HER when she tries something new. Not, "Thanks for not nagging the girls about their hair like you usually do," but "Did you see how relieved the girls were not to have to worry about their hair today? Thank you so much." Make it a positive experience for your wife, and those moments will happen more often.
Good luck.
Hilary E.
My advice would be to:
* Talk to the wife about how you want things handled and why, and listen to her opinion with an open mind. Be willing to give and take, and do what works best for the family as a whole regardless of how unschool-ish it is. (You can't really shop the "respectful, joyful art of unschooling" when you're acting controlling and judgmental when she's not doing things your way.) AND...
* THANK HER when she tries something new. Not, "Thanks for not nagging the girls about their hair like you usually do," but "Did you see how relieved the girls were not to have to worry about their hair today? Thank you so much." Make it a positive experience for your wife, and those moments will happen more often.
Good luck.
Hilary E.
sweetbo3boys
When I learned of Unschooling, way back when, it was such a natural fit for me and seemed to be for our family. I tried so hard to "make" my husband understand and welcome it as I had, but he really needed time. One thing that really helped him get it, was attending a talk that Sandra and Pam had done (in Bakersfield,Ca). It gave him a different point of view and hearing it from people who had been doing it , and were able to communicate it better than I could, allowed him to open up to it. If I can remember properly, I think he even bought some cassettes to listen to in his car. It was cool. (...just something to consider)
--- In [email protected], "HA" <verbiosa@...> wrote:
>
> I get the feeling the dad in the situation thinks his wife is doing things "the wrong way" because she's ignorant of "the right" one. I did that for awhile, and wish that someone would have smacked me upside the head. Dismissing your spouse's opinions won't help your kids or your family. Trust me ... I know this firsthand. :((
>
> My advice would be to:
>
> * Talk to the wife about how you want things handled and why, and listen to her opinion with an open mind. Be willing to give and take, and do what works best for the family as a whole regardless of how unschool-ish it is. (You can't really shop the "respectful, joyful art of unschooling" when you're acting controlling and judgmental when she's not doing things your way.) AND...
>
> * THANK HER when she tries something new. Not, "Thanks for not nagging the girls about their hair like you usually do," but "Did you see how relieved the girls were not to have to worry about their hair today? Thank you so much." Make it a positive experience for your wife, and those moments will happen more often.
>
> Good luck.
>
> Hilary E.
>
Sandra Dodd
-=- I think he even bought some cassettes to listen to in his car. It was cool. (...just something to consider)-=-
The modern day equivalent is to download some talks and put them on CD or iPod and get them into the car that way. :-)
There are some free things and links here:
http://sandradodd.com/listen
Better, though, probably:
Two talks I gave in August 2010 at the HSC conference are available for download.
Unschooling: How to Screw it Up http://www.hscconferenceshop.com/node/4
Michelangelo said that to carve his statue of David, he just chipped away everything that didn't look like David. Or maybe he didn't say that. But clearly that's what he ultimately did. Here will be ideas to help you chip away what doesn't look like unschooling. It's not as difficult as you might think.
Partnerships and Teams in the Family http://www.hscconferenceshop.com/node/5
Seeing and avoiding adversarial relationships. Nurturing partnerships with spouses or significant others, and with our children.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
The modern day equivalent is to download some talks and put them on CD or iPod and get them into the car that way. :-)
There are some free things and links here:
http://sandradodd.com/listen
Better, though, probably:
Two talks I gave in August 2010 at the HSC conference are available for download.
Unschooling: How to Screw it Up http://www.hscconferenceshop.com/node/4
Michelangelo said that to carve his statue of David, he just chipped away everything that didn't look like David. Or maybe he didn't say that. But clearly that's what he ultimately did. Here will be ideas to help you chip away what doesn't look like unschooling. It's not as difficult as you might think.
Partnerships and Teams in the Family http://www.hscconferenceshop.com/node/5
Seeing and avoiding adversarial relationships. Nurturing partnerships with spouses or significant others, and with our children.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
On 3/19/2011 8:15 AM, sweetbo3boys wrote:
I liked the format of that evening in Bakersfield - it was at someone's
house and everybody brought food to share and it was very friendly. It
really felt like people were there to listen and consider what we had to
say - even those who may not have entirely agreed. We all sat in a big
circle, just about the right number of people to fill the room, and
Sandra and I talked and answered questions. Good combination of formal
talk/informal Q & A.
I do think dads seem to very often benefit from talks and in-person
contacts where they can ask their own questions, rather than have the
info filtered through their wife. Sometimes it seems like their specific
concerns are blocking them from listening to the overall ideas - and if
they get a chance to ask someone their questions, they can move on and
think about the bigger picture.
I can't tell you how many times a dad has come up to me at a conference
and started with these words, "Let me ask you something.....". Then they
go on to ask some very specific question that almost always has some
underlying assumption or personal reason why that particular question is
an obstacle - "What about the kid who hates math?" (Dad hated math and
can't imagine that there are kids who don't.) "Don't you worry that your
kids won't learn to do things that are hard?" (Dad has a brother who is
a flake.) And so on. I usually talk to them a bit and somewhere along
the way I ask, "Is there some reason why you have that particular
concern?" They usually kind of laugh and admit it and I jokingly say,
"Hating math isn't hereditary, y'know." or "Well, your 6 year old isn't
your brother, right?" Something like that - food for thought.
-pam
> One thing that really helped him get it, was attending a talk thatThat's really nice to hear!
> Sandra and Pam had done (in Bakersfield,Ca).
I liked the format of that evening in Bakersfield - it was at someone's
house and everybody brought food to share and it was very friendly. It
really felt like people were there to listen and consider what we had to
say - even those who may not have entirely agreed. We all sat in a big
circle, just about the right number of people to fill the room, and
Sandra and I talked and answered questions. Good combination of formal
talk/informal Q & A.
I do think dads seem to very often benefit from talks and in-person
contacts where they can ask their own questions, rather than have the
info filtered through their wife. Sometimes it seems like their specific
concerns are blocking them from listening to the overall ideas - and if
they get a chance to ask someone their questions, they can move on and
think about the bigger picture.
I can't tell you how many times a dad has come up to me at a conference
and started with these words, "Let me ask you something.....". Then they
go on to ask some very specific question that almost always has some
underlying assumption or personal reason why that particular question is
an obstacle - "What about the kid who hates math?" (Dad hated math and
can't imagine that there are kids who don't.) "Don't you worry that your
kids won't learn to do things that are hard?" (Dad has a brother who is
a flake.) And so on. I usually talk to them a bit and somewhere along
the way I ask, "Is there some reason why you have that particular
concern?" They usually kind of laugh and admit it and I jokingly say,
"Hating math isn't hereditary, y'know." or "Well, your 6 year old isn't
your brother, right?" Something like that - food for thought.
-pam