Socialization and Unschooling was: looking for a post
chris ester
Your post about your daughter learning to raise her handin tae kwon do
reminded me of a gym and swim class that my kids were in many years ago.
The age range was 5-8, so most of the kids had never been in any
institutional setting to learn. They were dividing the kids into groups and
wanted them to count off in a line. All of the parents were sitting and
watching.
We all nearly fell over with laughter when a new teacher said, "Okay,
everybody line up!" and the kids all just stood there and looked at him like
he had just spoken ancient Greek. The more experienced teacher said, "Okay,
I would like everyone to stand on this red line on the floor."
We belong to a group of unschoolers and we get together every week for a
park day and we parents love to watch as our kids arrange themselves and
decide what games to play and how they are going to be played. The adults
do not facilitate any activity on these days, beyond providing
transportation to the event. As far as I know, most of the kids (ranging in
age from about 5 to 15) have never been in a school setting.
Based on my (naturally limited) observations, it seems that unschooling
helps children to develop the ability to organize themselves and cooperate
with others. These children hold discussions about what to play and how to
play. Every child has input and all seem to have equal say, regardless of
age or how long they have been part of the group. If they fail to come to a
consensus, which is rare, they take a vote and everyone abides by the vote
cheerfully. All of the children considers everyone's needs and the
teenagers look out for the smaller and younger children, without an adult
reminding them to do so.
Not all of this group is radically unschooled, some are not even unschooled,
but they have all grown into naturally considerate and mature human beings.
I can say that all of the parents seem to hold the same values with regard
to children being deserving of respect and have a right to self
determination. So much for the infamous "socialization" question.
I feel that these children are not exceptional leaders or saints. I think
that when a child has not been exposed to the assembly line school system
where false hierarchies are used to separate children into groups that are
ranked, thus robbing them of what I like to think of as natural dignity,
then they are able to develop the ability to empathize and practice
fairness. This, I think, all comes with the partnership that develops
within a family, when everyone is respected and valued for where they are
developmentally and who they are. All of these children have learned how to
navigate being part of a group without artificial rules based on false
valuation systems. They have all learned respect and consideration and
empathy because they were raised in homes being respected as humans, not
just children.
When my children were young and thus inexperienced, I (or my husband or the
two of us) was the natural leader in any group (family) activity because my
children were learning so much. So when we went on our walks, I often had
to redirect them because they hadn't learned yet how to cross a street for
example. As they grew and learned, the leadership role became more and more
diffuse. Now I am more of a facilitator for the family because my children
at 12 and 14 are very capable and competent. We sit and meet and decide
what we want to accomplish most days. Sometimes, I still have to arbitrate
and decide, but rarely, and that is usually because I am the one who notices
that a household need exists.
I forget who the quote is from, but it goes, "Expecting a child to learn how
to be socialized in a school is like expecting them to learn nutrition by
going to a grocery store." I personally think that a more accurate
comparison would be to expect your child to learn nutrition by going to
McDonalds.
As anyone else noticed that a lot of the competitive, self centered
behaviors that children are supposed to be known for seems to occur less (or
hardly at all) in homeschooled children? I might even go so far as to say
that the amount of poor socialization is in direct proportion to the amount
of time spent in a school setting, but I also admit to a certain amount of
bias. :)
Chris
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
reminded me of a gym and swim class that my kids were in many years ago.
The age range was 5-8, so most of the kids had never been in any
institutional setting to learn. They were dividing the kids into groups and
wanted them to count off in a line. All of the parents were sitting and
watching.
We all nearly fell over with laughter when a new teacher said, "Okay,
everybody line up!" and the kids all just stood there and looked at him like
he had just spoken ancient Greek. The more experienced teacher said, "Okay,
I would like everyone to stand on this red line on the floor."
We belong to a group of unschoolers and we get together every week for a
park day and we parents love to watch as our kids arrange themselves and
decide what games to play and how they are going to be played. The adults
do not facilitate any activity on these days, beyond providing
transportation to the event. As far as I know, most of the kids (ranging in
age from about 5 to 15) have never been in a school setting.
Based on my (naturally limited) observations, it seems that unschooling
helps children to develop the ability to organize themselves and cooperate
with others. These children hold discussions about what to play and how to
play. Every child has input and all seem to have equal say, regardless of
age or how long they have been part of the group. If they fail to come to a
consensus, which is rare, they take a vote and everyone abides by the vote
cheerfully. All of the children considers everyone's needs and the
teenagers look out for the smaller and younger children, without an adult
reminding them to do so.
Not all of this group is radically unschooled, some are not even unschooled,
but they have all grown into naturally considerate and mature human beings.
I can say that all of the parents seem to hold the same values with regard
to children being deserving of respect and have a right to self
determination. So much for the infamous "socialization" question.
I feel that these children are not exceptional leaders or saints. I think
that when a child has not been exposed to the assembly line school system
where false hierarchies are used to separate children into groups that are
ranked, thus robbing them of what I like to think of as natural dignity,
then they are able to develop the ability to empathize and practice
fairness. This, I think, all comes with the partnership that develops
within a family, when everyone is respected and valued for where they are
developmentally and who they are. All of these children have learned how to
navigate being part of a group without artificial rules based on false
valuation systems. They have all learned respect and consideration and
empathy because they were raised in homes being respected as humans, not
just children.
When my children were young and thus inexperienced, I (or my husband or the
two of us) was the natural leader in any group (family) activity because my
children were learning so much. So when we went on our walks, I often had
to redirect them because they hadn't learned yet how to cross a street for
example. As they grew and learned, the leadership role became more and more
diffuse. Now I am more of a facilitator for the family because my children
at 12 and 14 are very capable and competent. We sit and meet and decide
what we want to accomplish most days. Sometimes, I still have to arbitrate
and decide, but rarely, and that is usually because I am the one who notices
that a household need exists.
I forget who the quote is from, but it goes, "Expecting a child to learn how
to be socialized in a school is like expecting them to learn nutrition by
going to a grocery store." I personally think that a more accurate
comparison would be to expect your child to learn nutrition by going to
McDonalds.
As anyone else noticed that a lot of the competitive, self centered
behaviors that children are supposed to be known for seems to occur less (or
hardly at all) in homeschooled children? I might even go so far as to say
that the amount of poor socialization is in direct proportion to the amount
of time spent in a school setting, but I also admit to a certain amount of
bias. :)
Chris
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Based on my (naturally limited) observations, it seems that unschooling
helps children to develop the ability to organize themselves and cooperate
with others. These children hold discussions about what to play and how to
play. Every child has input and all seem to have equal say, regardless of
age or how long they have been part of the group. If they fail to come to a
consensus, which is rare, they take a vote and everyone abides by the vote
cheerfully. All of the children considers everyone's needs and the
teenagers look out for the smaller and younger children, without an adult
reminding them to do so.-=-
We saw that in our unschooling play group years ago. The kids would amend rules to running games so that little kids could play, too. Some of them were natural leaders. Some of them were natural counsellors. If there were problems among kids, we learned to ask Sarah Cordova or Kirby for their take on it, even if they were at a distance. Should a mom go over? "I'll talk to her," one of them might say, " or they would watch the posture and movement and say "I think theyr'e okay." They were always right. Great peacemakers, both of them, from a young age, and they knew the group of kids, and met the new kids as they came along.
-=-I feel that these children are not exceptional leaders or saints. I think
that when a child has not been exposed to the assembly line school system
where false hierarchies are used to separate children into groups that are
ranked, thus robbing them of what I like to think of as natural dignity,
then they are able to develop the ability to empathize and practice
fairness.-=-
I think that's true, but over-dramatically stated. I don't think "false" or robbery are factors so much that playing in mixed groups without time pressures is a big advantage school kids aren't given, except after school, depending on the personalities of the kids. When I was in fifth grade, some Jr. High girls (who shared our campus) used to come and organize running and circle games for us. It was GREAT! They had really good ideas, and were sweet, and because they were volunteering to do it, for fun, they weren't grouchy or exasperated, and because we didn't have to be there but each person there had the option to go do something else instead, the level of peace and cooperation was huge. That went on for months, and was one of my favorite memories. One of the girls was later on national TV representing New Mexico in the Jr. Miss pageant. Fire batons. Her name was Jeanelle Livingston. And I don't remember the other girl's name. I taught a couple of those games to kids at the Live and Learn conference that was near St. Louis a few years ago.
-=-When my children were young and thus inexperienced, I (or my husband or the
two of us) was the natural leader in any group (family) activity because my
children were learning so much. So when we went on our walks, I often had
to redirect them because they hadn't learned yet how to cross a street for
example. As they grew and learned, the leadership role became more and more
diffuse. Now I am more of a facilitator for the family because my children
at 12 and 14 are very capable and competent. We sit and meet and decide
what we want to accomplish most days. Sometimes, I still have to arbitrate
and decide, but rarely, and that is usually because I am the one who notices
that a household need exists.-=-
Now that my kids are grown, I'll let them decide and arrange things totally, and it's very comfortable. Holly was trying to juggle some babysitting, a Yoga-center anniversary party, and seeing a friend in a play. The girl she's sitting could go to the play with us, and there are matinees, but one is turing the yoga party. I told her I would go whenever she decided, and so she made all the plans and arranged for tickets. Not all 19-year-old girls would include their moms in their plans. Being a child's partner can pay off beyond childhood.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
helps children to develop the ability to organize themselves and cooperate
with others. These children hold discussions about what to play and how to
play. Every child has input and all seem to have equal say, regardless of
age or how long they have been part of the group. If they fail to come to a
consensus, which is rare, they take a vote and everyone abides by the vote
cheerfully. All of the children considers everyone's needs and the
teenagers look out for the smaller and younger children, without an adult
reminding them to do so.-=-
We saw that in our unschooling play group years ago. The kids would amend rules to running games so that little kids could play, too. Some of them were natural leaders. Some of them were natural counsellors. If there were problems among kids, we learned to ask Sarah Cordova or Kirby for their take on it, even if they were at a distance. Should a mom go over? "I'll talk to her," one of them might say, " or they would watch the posture and movement and say "I think theyr'e okay." They were always right. Great peacemakers, both of them, from a young age, and they knew the group of kids, and met the new kids as they came along.
-=-I feel that these children are not exceptional leaders or saints. I think
that when a child has not been exposed to the assembly line school system
where false hierarchies are used to separate children into groups that are
ranked, thus robbing them of what I like to think of as natural dignity,
then they are able to develop the ability to empathize and practice
fairness.-=-
I think that's true, but over-dramatically stated. I don't think "false" or robbery are factors so much that playing in mixed groups without time pressures is a big advantage school kids aren't given, except after school, depending on the personalities of the kids. When I was in fifth grade, some Jr. High girls (who shared our campus) used to come and organize running and circle games for us. It was GREAT! They had really good ideas, and were sweet, and because they were volunteering to do it, for fun, they weren't grouchy or exasperated, and because we didn't have to be there but each person there had the option to go do something else instead, the level of peace and cooperation was huge. That went on for months, and was one of my favorite memories. One of the girls was later on national TV representing New Mexico in the Jr. Miss pageant. Fire batons. Her name was Jeanelle Livingston. And I don't remember the other girl's name. I taught a couple of those games to kids at the Live and Learn conference that was near St. Louis a few years ago.
-=-When my children were young and thus inexperienced, I (or my husband or the
two of us) was the natural leader in any group (family) activity because my
children were learning so much. So when we went on our walks, I often had
to redirect them because they hadn't learned yet how to cross a street for
example. As they grew and learned, the leadership role became more and more
diffuse. Now I am more of a facilitator for the family because my children
at 12 and 14 are very capable and competent. We sit and meet and decide
what we want to accomplish most days. Sometimes, I still have to arbitrate
and decide, but rarely, and that is usually because I am the one who notices
that a household need exists.-=-
Now that my kids are grown, I'll let them decide and arrange things totally, and it's very comfortable. Holly was trying to juggle some babysitting, a Yoga-center anniversary party, and seeing a friend in a play. The girl she's sitting could go to the play with us, and there are matinees, but one is turing the yoga party. I told her I would go whenever she decided, and so she made all the plans and arranged for tickets. Not all 19-year-old girls would include their moms in their plans. Being a child's partner can pay off beyond childhood.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
On 3/4/2011 6:01 AM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
time and if they spend 10 minutes trying to figure out how to organize
their play more fairly to be more fun for everybody, they've lost half
their recess time. Also there is the huge factor that the unschooling
kids do have adults nearby who are ready and willing to help when
needed. Kids on a school playground don't have that kind of access (even
when there is an adult on the playground, they typically only intervene
after a problem has erupted into conflict and usually only when someone
is hurt).
I wanted to add that I can remember a number of times, though, when our
unschooled kids (large unschooling park day group) were not paying
attention to the interests or needs of a few members and some were
starting to get frustrated and all it took to resolve it was for an
adult to say, "Do you guys think you can work this out better?" That was
enough for them all to stop and think about what was going on and they'd
pretty quickly come up with some new ideas.
I remember one incident in particular. A group of about 10 kids had
planned a game they were going to play at the park. One of the kids had
gone home and really worked on it and come back with a lot of details
planned out. The kids were all standing while he was telling them all
the stuff he'd worked on. There was one kid there who had not been at
the park the previous few weeks and hadn't been part of all the
excitement of planning this new game. The kids were very very eager to
play. I was nearby. I noticed that he was not given a role and I waited
to see how he responded and how the kids responded. He spoke up, "What
about me?" The "leader" said, "Sorry, there are no more roles." The kid
(about 12 years old) sort of wandered away toward where the parents were
all sitting, clearly hurt and disappointed. The other kids were all
caught up in getting started and ignored him. I went over near him and
he was telling his mom, "They won't let me play." I went back to the
group of kids and gathered them back together and said, "Hey, guys, Cody
is really disappointed. You guys could probably figure out a way to
include him, right?" And that was enough - they all turned their focus
and within about 30 seconds had called him back over and divided up a
role into two so that there was something for him. They needed someone
to call their attention to solving the problem, not to tell them what to
do, not to berate them or blame them.
-pam
> I think that's true, but over-dramatically stated. I don't thinkI think time is an important factor - kids in school feel rushed all the
> "false" or robbery are factors so much that playing in mixed groups
> without time pressures is a big advantage school kids aren't given,
> except after school, depending on the personalities of the kids.
time and if they spend 10 minutes trying to figure out how to organize
their play more fairly to be more fun for everybody, they've lost half
their recess time. Also there is the huge factor that the unschooling
kids do have adults nearby who are ready and willing to help when
needed. Kids on a school playground don't have that kind of access (even
when there is an adult on the playground, they typically only intervene
after a problem has erupted into conflict and usually only when someone
is hurt).
I wanted to add that I can remember a number of times, though, when our
unschooled kids (large unschooling park day group) were not paying
attention to the interests or needs of a few members and some were
starting to get frustrated and all it took to resolve it was for an
adult to say, "Do you guys think you can work this out better?" That was
enough for them all to stop and think about what was going on and they'd
pretty quickly come up with some new ideas.
I remember one incident in particular. A group of about 10 kids had
planned a game they were going to play at the park. One of the kids had
gone home and really worked on it and come back with a lot of details
planned out. The kids were all standing while he was telling them all
the stuff he'd worked on. There was one kid there who had not been at
the park the previous few weeks and hadn't been part of all the
excitement of planning this new game. The kids were very very eager to
play. I was nearby. I noticed that he was not given a role and I waited
to see how he responded and how the kids responded. He spoke up, "What
about me?" The "leader" said, "Sorry, there are no more roles." The kid
(about 12 years old) sort of wandered away toward where the parents were
all sitting, clearly hurt and disappointed. The other kids were all
caught up in getting started and ignored him. I went over near him and
he was telling his mom, "They won't let me play." I went back to the
group of kids and gathered them back together and said, "Hey, guys, Cody
is really disappointed. You guys could probably figure out a way to
include him, right?" And that was enough - they all turned their focus
and within about 30 seconds had called him back over and divided up a
role into two so that there was something for him. They needed someone
to call their attention to solving the problem, not to tell them what to
do, not to berate them or blame them.
-pam