dola dasgupta-banerji

The other day someone close asked me "what if the kids do not fit in"?

So I said well that is a good question but I really do not feel that the
purpose of life is to "fit in". So then this person asked "what about low
self esteem that comes from not having specific goals and a structured
education.?"

So I said low self esteem comes from not being respected by parents, for
wanting to follow one's own heart and that self esteem has nothing to do
with structured education."

Then the next question was "what about growing up and making money which is
a must?"

So I said "yeah what about it?" However since this persons matters I had to
explain how looking at life from the experience of the moment in the present
is what matters.

Then a certain line from Sandra's book Moving a Puddle came to my mind "
everything counts" and that she mentions in one of the essays how it is
important to watch the children be a poet, artists, musician... for the
moment and not for future careers.

My son Ishaan will turn 5 next month and he always tells a story while
drawing. So he draws a ship, then he draws a dragon who is breathing fire,
then a castle, some whales, the sea, cannons and guns, pirates all of it on
a single large sheet. Saw I see not 'how well he is drawing" but "wow he is
like a graphic artist and a story teller for that moment."

Now till recently he would sketch only a sailing ship or a dragon or a train
or a submarine. But all separately. But now all that is on the same space
and with a story woven around the drawings......I feel that is pretty
cool.....

My daughter is 9 and one day she is a office assistant, another day she puts
up shop signs on her door indicating that she is a designer selling clothes,
some day she is a beautician and a hair dresser. Sometimes she watches dance
shows on TV and dances along trying very earnestly to copy the steps.
Sometimes she spends whole day surfing You Tube for music videos, or plays
dress up and make over games on the net. And that is cool.

So I tell this person watch the children with eyes and heart that are in the
present moment and not with binoculars that are always looking at some
unknown distant future.......

Then this person says well they have fixed ideas and ask questions. So I
said "no they do not have fixed ideas, they simply have questions which need
answering. It is the adult who has the fixed ideas and is being
judgmental.....and that is why the resistance from within to answer those
questions....."

Dola


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

This is really pretty:

-=-So I tell this person watch the children with eyes and heart that are in the
present moment and not with binoculars that are always looking at some
unknown distant future.......-=-

Dola wrote it.

Many parents do overlook their own child in 2011 (or whenever) trying to squint at 2021, and imagining a 2021 based on 1991. It's just totally chaos and the child wonders what the parent might be looking at or thinking about. They THINK they're thinking about their child, but they're ignoring him, in that moment.

Sandra

julesmiel

--- In [email protected], dola dasgupta-banerji <doladg@...> wrote:
> Then this person says well they have fixed ideas and ask questions. > So I said "no they do not have fixed ideas, they simply have
> questions which need answering. It is the adult who has the fixed
> ideas and is being judgmental.....and that is why the resistance
> from within to answer those questions....."

The really fascinating thing for me as I experience my son's questions is that the most correct answer to each of them would be "I don't know."

I can report on my memories of sensory experience. I can share my perceptions of our culture. I can repeat what I've read, like I did when we were exploring what makes thunder.

But do gnomes come alive when no one is there? I don't know, because no one is there. I've never seen it (unless I have seen it and then forgot about it).

Can a person live forever? I don't know. As far as I know, each body dies. But who am I to say there are no immortals? How could I possibly know?

The world gets bigger and bigger, more and more open. I was taught in fact and limits, and now each question reveals an assumption with a jello-like foundation. Fun to explore.

Julie

Sandra Dodd

-=-But do gnomes come alive when no one is there? I don't know, because no one is there. I've never seen it (unless I have seen it and then forgot about it).-=-

Seriously? You have the least bit of confusion about statuary made of plastic or plaster or wood?

-=-Can a person live forever? I don't know. As far as I know, each body dies. But who am I to say there are no immortals? How could I possibly know?-=-

By that reasoning, I cannot "possibly know" if the flowers on this table are going to turn into birds.
If the mother isn't going to be helpful when children ask questions, the child will stop asking questions, or will stop paying attention to the answers.

-=-The world gets bigger and bigger, more and more open. I was taught in fact and limits, and now each question reveals an assumption with a jello-like foundation. Fun to explore.-=-

Even a jello gnome is still just everyday material shaped like a gnome. A big, open world laid out with more questions and answers is still a real world with realities and limitations.

Unschooling isn't make-believe.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

julesmiel

--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
> Seriously? You have the least bit of confusion about statuary made > of plastic or plaster or wood?

Seriously. I realized that I don't actually know. That was surprising. I know what everyone believes. I have no evidence to the contrary. I don't feel confident that I'm about to see a dancing gnome. But I don't know.

I find that an interesting place to explore. It's neat to discuss what people generally believe, what I've observed, what I haven't observed.

Julie

Tamrha Richardson

-=-But do gnomes come alive when no one is there? I don't know, because no
one is there. I've never seen it (unless I have seen it and then forgot
about it).-=-

++++Seriously? You have the least bit of confusion about statuary made of
plastic or plaster or wood?++++
++++Even a jello gnome is still just everyday material shaped like a gnome.
A big, open world laid out with more questions and answers is still a real
world with realities and limitations.++++

++++Unschooling isn't make-believe.+++++

You just sealed it for me Sandra.

You have limited scope of what is 'make believe', what is 'magic' and what,
to you, 'is or is not'. Great for you. But who made you an authority on such
a topic? You're an influence in unschooling. To some an authority. But
there's a big world out there, and just because YOU have not interacted with
a gnome, or a fey, or whatever doesn't mean it does not exist nor does it
not have a place in another families scope of unschooling. I'm understanding
here that this is a lifestyle. If I choose to unschool, I will not be
extracting my belief, from experience, of creatures such as this in the
lives my my children. They are free to choose what to believe... and
sometimes it actually does take the experience to believe... but I digress.


Maybe these things have no place in your world, but they have a place in
other peoples worlds. Especially those who have seen into a different realm
and know, beyond a doubt, that these things exist.

I know this is not the place for such a discussion, but I cannot stay on a
list where someone so nastily smacks down another mothers loving way of
interacting with her child. Julie... Yes, how can we possibly know what a
gnome is up to when we aren't watching. And Sandra - I doubt she was talking
about garden statuary as you so snidely commented.

I think I can explore unschooling elsewhere. Maybe a gnome will leave a
webpage open when I'm not looking. Or drop a book onto my path. Scoff if you
like. That's fine. I won't be on the list to see it, respond, or even care.

T

On Sun, Feb 20, 2011 at 9:32 AM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:

>
>
> -=-But do gnomes come alive when no one is there? I don't know, because no
> one is there. I've never seen it (unless I have seen it and then forgot
> about it).-=-
>
> Seriously? You have the least bit of confusion about statuary made of
> plastic or plaster or wood?
>
> -=-Can a person live forever? I don't know. As far as I know, each body
> dies. But who am I to say there are no immortals? How could I possibly
> know?-=-
>
> By that reasoning, I cannot "possibly know" if the flowers on this table
> are going to turn into birds.
> If the mother isn't going to be helpful when children ask questions, the
> child will stop asking questions, or will stop paying attention to the
> answers.
>
> -=-The world gets bigger and bigger, more and more open. I was taught in
> fact and limits, and now each question reveals an assumption with a
> jello-like foundation. Fun to explore.-=-
>
> Even a jello gnome is still just everyday material shaped like a gnome. A
> big, open world laid out with more questions and answers is still a real
> world with realities and limitations.
>
> Unschooling isn't make-believe.
>
> Sandra
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>



--
Tamrha Richardson CD (CBI), Long Island BirthNetwork National ~ Chapter
Leader
www.tamrhasdoulasupport.com

*** Labor and Postpartum Doula Support***
*** Calm Birth Classes***
*** Childbirth Education***

My blog... http://alongislanddoula.blogspot.com/

www.betterbirthnewyork.com/Richardson.html

Need a specialty cake, cookies or chocolates?
www.trinityscookiecauldron.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

dola dasgupta-banerji

>>>>>>>>The really fascinating thing for me as I experience my son's
questions is that the most correct answer to each of them would be "I don't
know."<<<<<<<

The most correct answer cannot be "I don't know." One could simply lead the
child to some resources, like internet, CDs, stories, pictures, books. More
appropriate and definitely the right approach would be to say "I have never
thought about this earlier but hey wow let us see if we can find an answer
to that question."

It is true that I do not have all the answers but by saying "I don't know"
one has simply closed shut a door to some fascinating interaction with
children.

Gnomes. Santa Claus, Fairies, Dwarfs or immortality is not the issue out
here. The crux is to encourage and feed the inquiring mind.

Gourika my 9 year old often asks esoteric and spiritual questions. It is my
privilege to always try and encourage that train of thought.

Ishaan used to ask a lot about Dragons. So instead of saying "I don't know",
we just went into resources. Pictures, myths, stories, movies, books,
drawings etc. And today he has figured out on his own that Dragons are
'mythical' creatures....But boy oh boy what all we learnt on the way has
been truly amazing.

He learnt about China, Japan, Scotland, England. About Knights and swords
and legends.

You surely need to re-think this "i don't Know".

Dola

On Sun, Feb 20, 2011 at 4:42 PM, julesmiel <julesmiel@...> wrote:

>
>
> --- In [email protected], dola dasgupta-banerji <doladg@...>
> wrote:
> > Then this person says well they have fixed ideas and ask questions. > So
> I said "no they do not have fixed ideas, they simply have
> > questions which need answering. It is the adult who has the fixed
> > ideas and is being judgmental.....and that is why the resistance
> > from within to answer those questions....."
>
> The really fascinating thing for me as I experience my son's questions is
> that the most correct answer to each of them would be "I don't know."
>
> I can report on my memories of sensory experience. I can share my
> perceptions of our culture. I can repeat what I've read, like I did when we
> were exploring what makes thunder.
>
> But do gnomes come alive when no one is there? I don't know, because no one
> is there. I've never seen it (unless I have seen it and then forgot about
> it).
>
> Can a person live forever? I don't know. As far as I know, each body dies.
> But who am I to say there are no immortals? How could I possibly know?
>
> The world gets bigger and bigger, more and more open. I was taught in fact
> and limits, and now each question reveals an assumption with a jello-like
> foundation. Fun to explore.
>
> Julie
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-I think I can explore unschooling elsewhere. -=-

Of course you can.
If you find a better place, let a lot of people know.

-=-Maybe a gnome will leave a webpage open when I'm not looking. -=-

Yeah.
Maybe a gnome will create a yahoolist, and if he does, he will be the listowner and therefor the authority on what is allowable on his own list.

Sandra



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

julesmiel

--- In [email protected], dola dasgupta-banerji <doladg@...> wrote:
> The most correct answer cannot be "I don't know." One could simply lead the
> child to some resources, like internet, CDs, stories, pictures, books. More
> appropriate and definitely the right approach would be to say "I have never
> thought about this earlier but hey wow let us see if we can find an answer
> to that question."

To me, "I don't know" is a beginning of an exploration. It doesn't tend to end in my ultimate knowing, but the exploration is fun.

Julie

k

I can quasi-believe a lot of stuff for the wonder and fun of it. It
doesn't break my interest in this list to read that these things are
not the focus of the list. Of course they wouldn't be! And that's part
of the magic. If everyone believed, magic wouldn't be as beloved. The
whole fun of it for me is that it's a separate secret world of
intrigue, symbols and meaning.

~Katherine, a really big fairy ... shhhh don't tell anyone



On Sunday, February 20, 2011, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
> -=-I think I can explore unschooling elsewhere. -=-
>
> Of course you can.
> If you find a better place, let a lot of people know.
>
> -=-Maybe a gnome will leave a webpage open when I'm not looking. -=-
>
> Yeah.
> Maybe a gnome will create a yahoolist, and if he does, he will be the listowner and therefor the authority on what is allowable on his own list.
>
> Sandra
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

plaidpanties666

"julesmiel" <julesmiel@...> wrote:
> The really fascinating thing for me as I experience my son's questions is that the most correct answer to each of them would be "I don't know."
*******************

Correct answer? As in "this will be on the test"?

Its worth thinking about why you want a single correct answer, like that. More than that, its worth thinking about why your child is asking you a question in the first place. Doling out single, correct answers, including "I don't know" can shut down conversation and erode a relationship.

There's an idea that some parents have that a sense of wonder is something that needs to be promoted and encouraged - and that can turn into a kind of closet curriculum for parents, as if children can be taught to wonder by being given vague answers, regardless of what the child is looking for. In that sense "I don't know" can become as dogmatic as "this is The Truth".

Trust that your kids already have a sense of wonder and excitement about the world. You don't need to push it along! And you don't need to define it in your own terms. Maybe its exciting *to you* to wonder at the potential for beyond the rainbow, but your child isn't you - he may rather wonder at the physics of refraction itself and find all the stuff about magic misses the beautiful paradox of the photon.

> The world gets bigger and bigger, more and more open. I was taught in fact and limits, and now each question reveals an assumption with a jello-like foundation. Fun to explore.
****************

Fun for you. Maybe fun for your child - but that's the question, isn't it. Are you letting your own ideas about what's important get in the way of what your child would rather explore? Are you letting your closet-curriculum of mysteries get in the way of someone looking for data?

It doesn't have to be one thing or another, fact Or fiction - and maybe that's what Julie means. Recently Mo and I have been reading a fantasy series about dragon riders set in a facsimilie of ancient Egypt. As a result of that, she's been curious about real Egypt, so we've been looking through books and websites and talking about what's known and not-known, about archeology and history, alphabets and customs... and in the last couple weeks about politics and democracy since Egypt has been in the news in exciting ways. So learning is swirling around, in and out of fact and fiction and the gray area that is "history" - and there's a Lot of that gray area in Egypt! There's a lot of "no-one really knows for sure, but...". A lot of wondering to be done. And, at the same time, there's a chance to see how wondering fades into true fiction. I'm not pretending that maybe there used to be dragons in Egypt - but knowing that part is pretend doesn't make the stories less fun, or the people we're reading about less wonderful. It doesn't automatically make the world smaller to say a fantasy isn't real - it can make our human capacity for imagining all the more miraculous.

---Meredith

julesmiel

There's an assumption here that I've decided it's delightful to answer my son's questions with "I don't know" as The Correct thing to do (click heels together and salute). I did use the word "correct", when maybe "authentic" would be better.

Here's what I said:
<<The really fascinating thing for me as I experience my son's questions is that the most correct answer to each of them would be "I don't know."

I can report on my memories of sensory experience. I can share my perceptions of our culture. I can repeat what I've read, like I did when we were exploring what makes thunder.>>

Our conversations and activities don't end in "I don't know." I don't need him to have a particular quotient of wonder on display. I do enjoy talking with him, especially because his questions often cause me to stop, ponder, reframe, and recognize my assumptions.

I have been enjoying realizing the wiggly nature of the word "know," exploring what it means to know. This certainly affects my interactions with others, but I do not recommend an I Don't Know Curriculum of Wonder and Delight.

Julie

k

>>>Trust that your kids already have a sense of wonder and excitement about the world. You don't need to push it along! And you don't need to define it in your own terms. Maybe its exciting *to you* to wonder at the potential for beyond the rainbow, but your child isn't you - he may rather wonder at the physics of refraction itself and find all the stuff about magic misses the beautiful paradox of the photon.<<<

There's that. And there's also the experience that many parents have
by the time a child gets older and outgrows the Magic Only world of
very young childhood (maybe never delves that deeply into magical
thinking even as a toddler). What if the child says things similar to
what Sandra just said as well as other things. --That's not real! or
that's a crushing dead bore.. ugh.--

Not everyone has the same interests, including parents and their
children. I had many interests that my parents didn't and still don't
like. They have interests I don't have. We share some interests, like
astronomy and biology but then our differing interests take us down
separate paths even within those shared interests.

And we veer away from sharing interests when disagreements are taken
as personal affronts and rejection. Children aren't trying to offend
their parents by having different interests and many of those
interests may stay under the radar as a result of trying not to
offend.

That's the kind of thing that stops the learning from happening.
Because if a parent can't go there with their child, then their child
can't go there.

~Katherine

Sandra Dodd

-=-Because if a parent can't go there with their child, then their child
can't go there.-=-

That doesn't seem right.

Unless you're talking about really young children, children can have lots of interests their parents don't share.

I'm talking about relationships and trust, though. If a parent isn't trustworthy, and if a parent isn't being a partner and a guide to help a child become more at home in the real world, unschooling won't work as well as otherwise.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

k

-=-Because if a parent can't go there with their child, then their
child can't go there.-=-

>>>That doesn't seem right.<<<

>>>Unless you're talking about really young children, children can have lots of interests their parents don't share.<<<

I don't mean in terms of personally taking up those interests but
discouraging them and not listening ---then it might be very hard for
the children to get the resources in order to go after their
interests. In my case, it was a matter of waiting until I could do
things for myself as an adult.

Maybe they can find their own way in spite of a parent being turned
off to what they're interested in. I don't think that's what
unschooling ideally does though. The idea is to at least be alert for
new interests in the first place. And to expect a certain amount of
curiosity about things the parent has little or no interest in.

For instance if a child is interested in blackholes and the parent
doesn't believe in blackholes, there's some way for the child to look
at the idea and decide some things about blackholes rather than being
pushed off from looking at the idea themselves. If a parent doesn't
think the child is talking about blackholes, like Meredith described a
child wanting to know about how light works ... but maybe the parent
is onto something else they prefer instead of being open to the child.

~Katherine

Jennifer Schuelein

> Seriously. I realized that I don't actually know. That was >surprising. I know what everyone believes. I have no evidence to the contrary. I don't feel confident that I'm about to see a dancing >gnome. But I don't know.
>
> I find that an interesting place to explore. It's neat to discuss >what people generally believe, what I've observed, what I haven't >observed.

So, things are not real or factual unless you yourself have observed them first hand?

For instance, I have not, myself observed the pyramids being built or seen the pyramids in person, but I know what they are made of and I know where they are located and I know who made them.

I also know for a fact that gnomes are not real and I would never tell my child otherwise. However, I would not dissuade him from creative play in which he has gnomes doing things. Discounting the accepted viewpoint for some things can be positive (questioning is great!), but to totally embrace fantasy as reality seems misleading for a parent/child relationship.

Jennifer

--- In [email protected], "julesmiel" <julesmiel@...> wrote:
>
> --- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@> wrote:
> > Seriously? You have the least bit of confusion about statuary made > of plastic or plaster or wood?
>
> Seriously. I realized that I don't actually know. That was surprising. I know what everyone believes. I have no evidence to the contrary. I don't feel confident that I'm about to see a dancing gnome. But I don't know.
>
> I find that an interesting place to explore. It's neat to discuss what people generally believe, what I've observed, what I haven't observed.
>
> Julie
>

Jenny Cyphers

***It doesn't have to be one thing or another, fact Or fiction - and maybe
that's what Julie means. Recently Mo and I have been reading a fantasy series
about dragon riders set in a facsimilie of ancient Egypt. As a result of that,
she's been curious about real Egypt, so we've been looking through books and
websites and talking about what's known and not-known, about archeology and
history, alphabets and customs...***

Margaux is a huge HUGE Xena Warrior Princess fan! She's seen all the episodes
many times over. At one point she asked if giants were real, or if cyclops were
real. Other than giants, like really big people like Andre the Giant, I wasn't
sure where the idea of giants came from so I looked it up. I found some
fascinating and compelling arguments that suggested that for real giants
existed, like Goliath from the biblical stories. I don't know if it's true and
neither does Margaux. It's something someone somewhere thought believable and
researched and compiled information about online.

Margaux neither came away fully believing in giants, nor completely
disbelieving. She found exactly what I found, that some people believe they
existed in the past and why they believe it. If a real giant existed in the
here and now, I'm pretty sure they'd be in a movie or a PBS documentary, or
possibly making mayhem for some of us small people!





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Feb 20, 2011, at 11:37 AM, julesmiel wrote:

> To me, "I don't know" is a beginning of an exploration. It doesn't
> tend to end in my ultimate knowing, but the exploration is fun.

To me it's sounding more like a reaction to rejecting education as
being about pouring the right answers into a child.

I agree learning shouldn't be about filling a child with facts. It's
not about memorizing the right answers.

And parents shouldn't be afraid to say "I don't know," to a child's
question. But the follow up to that is offering to look it up. Either
together or you can do it and bring back the answer. Or do it later
when you get the chance.

Again, "What does the child want?"

This child. This time. The answer to that question won't always be the
same.

And again the question, Can he trust that you'll give him the answer
he's looking for? Or does he need to be subjected to your agenda of
what you want to give him?

> for me as I experience my son's questions is that the most correct
> answer to each of them would be "I don't know."


"Correct" from whose point of view? If the answer isn't in line with
what the child is seeking, then it isn't correct. Even if it's
factual. Even if it's true.

> I can report on my memories of sensory experience. I can share my
> perceptions of our culture. I can repeat what I've read, like I did
> when we were exploring what makes thunder.

And that's often what kids are asking for.

> But do gnomes come alive when no one is there? I don't know, because
> no one is there. I've never seen it (unless I have seen it and then
> forgot about it).

"I've never seen them," is a more factual answer than "I don't know."
You're defining "know" too narrowly and it might get in between you
and your child.

A more fanciful answer might be "It's fun to imagine."

But, always, what does the child want to know? Typing in "Santa" into
the archives will pull up ways parents have tackled the question of
whether he exists or not without saying "Yes," "No," or "I don't know."

> The world gets bigger and bigger, more and more open. I was taught
> in fact and limits, and now each question reveals an assumption with
> a jello-like foundation. Fun to explore.

For a factual kid it might not be.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Feb 20, 2011, at 2:10 PM, julesmiel wrote:

> There's an assumption here that I've decided it's delightful to
> answer my son's questions with "I don't know" as The Correct thing
> to do (click heels together and salute).

For the list to be an efficient use of people's time in understanding
unschooling, the assumption is that people are writing clearly.

It's assumed because one of the pages linked at the list's description
that all new members are told to read says:

ALL posts should be
• honest
• proofread
• sincere
• clear

Members are trusted to write what is true and what they mean.

Posters are responsible for the accuracy of their words. Readers are
not responsible for reading between the lines, making "kinder" guesses
as to what someone meant to write, or asking for clarification of
words that are already (apparently) clear.

Often times, the ideas expressed -- even ones that don't fit the
original poster's thoughts -- are worth discussing because they are
ideas other people have. Or, more importantly, the idea has gone into
2000 people's heads and *some* have thought "Yeah! Good idea!" And
it's in keeping with the purpose of the list to clean up the muddle
and help those people see "No, not a good idea."

> I did use the word "correct", when maybe "authentic" would be better.

Even authentic isn't a great concept for unschooling. It sure sounds
good! It sounds like a profound truth that we should all strive to be
authentic.

But "authentic" isn't about meeting the *child's* needs. "Authentic"
is about the mom's needs (to be whatever she defines "authentic" to
mean). "Authentic" as a philosophy (or principle) will get in between
a mother and meeting her *child's* needs.

If mom wants to be "authentic" *and* unschool, she needs to find a way
to meet her child's needs first and foremost and find a way to be
"authentic" that doesn't interfere with what the child wants and needs.

> Our conversations and activities don't end in "I don't know.


To be clear to 2000 people reading, the words posted need to say that.
If the words say otherwise, if the words make even one person think
"Good idea!" they need discussed.

Joyce

dola dasgupta-banerji

When someone writes the correct way to respond to each of his question is "I
don't know". There are many reading this statement and saying in their heads
and I can actually see some nodding with a smile of self approval, "wow I
knew I was right. I don't know is a good answer".

That does not necessarily make this statement the 'correct' approach. It is
not anyone's job to know actually and exactly what you "felt" or meant to
really say, when you wrote this. But what you posted when seen objectively,
could mislead many. To write what one means and to mean what one writes is
absolute must for the communication to happen rightly.

For me as a reader on this list, that first line of yours came across as
disturbing and detrimental to unschooling or even simple parenting.

Dola

On Mon, Feb 21, 2011 at 3:38 PM, Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...>wrote:

>
> On Feb 20, 2011, at 2:10 PM, julesmiel wrote:
>
> > There's an assumption here that I've decided it's delightful to
> > answer my son's questions with "I don't know" as The Correct thing
> > to do (click heels together and salute).
>
> For the list to be an efficient use of people's time in understanding
> unschooling, the assumption is that people are writing clearly.
>
> It's assumed because one of the pages linked at the list's description
> that all new members are told to read says:
>
> ALL posts should be
> � honest
> � proofread
> � sincere
> � clear
>
> Members are trusted to write what is true and what they mean.
>
> Posters are responsible for the accuracy of their words. Readers are
> not responsible for reading between the lines, making "kinder" guesses
> as to what someone meant to write, or asking for clarification of
> words that are already (apparently) clear.
>
> Often times, the ideas expressed -- even ones that don't fit the
> original poster's thoughts -- are worth discussing because they are
> ideas other people have. Or, more importantly, the idea has gone into
> 2000 people's heads and *some* have thought "Yeah! Good idea!" And
> it's in keeping with the purpose of the list to clean up the muddle
> and help those people see "No, not a good idea."
>
> > I did use the word "correct", when maybe "authentic" would be better.
>
> Even authentic isn't a great concept for unschooling. It sure sounds
> good! It sounds like a profound truth that we should all strive to be
> authentic.
>
> But "authentic" isn't about meeting the *child's* needs. "Authentic"
> is about the mom's needs (to be whatever she defines "authentic" to
> mean). "Authentic" as a philosophy (or principle) will get in between
> a mother and meeting her *child's* needs.
>
> If mom wants to be "authentic" *and* unschool, she needs to find a way
> to meet her child's needs first and foremost and find a way to be
> "authentic" that doesn't interfere with what the child wants and needs.
>
> > Our conversations and activities don't end in "I don't know.
>
>
> To be clear to 2000 people reading, the words posted need to say that.
> If the words say otherwise, if the words make even one person think
> "Good idea!" they need discussed.
>
> Joyce
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>


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Sandra Dodd

-=-I also know for a fact that gnomes are not real and I would never tell my child otherwise. However, I would not dissuade him from creative play in which he has gnomes doing things. Discounting the accepted viewpoint for some things can be positive (questioning is great!), but to totally embrace fantasy as reality seems misleading for a parent/child relationship.-=-

Garden gnomes are real, but they're not going to come to life.
IF there are "real gnomes" they're already alive.
Those garden figurines people steal and take on vacation for photo opportunities are not gnomes really. They are garden decorations.

Just as with video games, the phenomena of children knowing something is fantasy and moms thinking (or claiming to think) that it's "violence" or whatever, there can be flaws in the mother's lack of clarity of thought and direct observation.

For unschooling to remain strong and valid, moms need to try to be the adult in the sense that they not let their own imagination carry the parent/child team into places that are no longer "educational" or logical or realistic. Being playful is great. Claiming or wishing to disregard reality is not nearly as great.

Sandra

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julesmiel

--- In [email protected], "Jennifer Schuelein" <fairiedust66@...> wrote:
> So, things are not real or factual unless you yourself have observed > them first hand?

I guess this is how I tend to describe knowledge stuff:
- I've seen this.
- I haven't seen that.
- People say this.
- They used to think this and now they think that about it.
- Some people believe in this. Other people say it doesn't exist.

> For instance, I have not, myself observed the pyramids being built
> or seen the pyramids in person, but I know what they are made of and > I know where they are located and I know who made them.

I know what books say. I half remember what various sources have told me. I guess I report it that way. I'm interested in where information comes from, how long people tend to believe in it, how it changes over time.

And I notice interesting differences in presentation of basic knowledge. Even there, different sources frame answers differently.


Here's an example about fiction that demonstrates what I notice about fact. Mitri has been fascinated with Rapunzel stories. It's interesting to see the variation in each version. When it comes to what people agree is fact, all the information sources giving people knowledge past and present have similar variations.

> I also know for a fact that gnomes are not real and I would never
> tell my child otherwise.

I don't know that gnomes are or are not real. I am living in a world where the consensus around me is "Balderdash!" I can convey the flavor of that consensus, and it's interesting for me to do so.

> but to totally embrace fantasy as reality seems misleading for a
> parent/child relationship.

Haven't done that, but we do talk about what people generally think is fantasy, what people think is real.

Julie

julesmiel

--- In [email protected], "julesmiel" <julesmiel@...> wrote:
> I know what books say. I half remember what various sources have
> told me. I guess I report it that way.

To clarify, the conversation starts with what I perceive, think, half-remember. It may continue with further exploration, but it doesn't have to. Sometimes he's done, sometimes he's just getting started.

Julie

Deb Lewis

***I'm talking about relationships and trust, though. If a parent isn't trustworthy, and if a parent isn't being a partner and a guide to help a child become more at home in the real world, unschooling won't work as well as otherwise.***

When I was little I liked thinking my stuffed animals came alive at night or when I wasn't there. The real, live cats sometimes didn't want to snuggle, so having a toy cat that snuggled anytime I wanted was great! But thinking it also had some other more interesting, fulfilling life was nice too. <g.>

I didn't need to check with anyone to confirm or deny my idea. I was happy to think what I wanted.

I think most children don't need adult validation of their fantasy play. Playing along with kids can be sweet and fun. But when a child asks a question of someone he trusts he should get a reasoned answer.

For one thing, gnomes are scary. If kid was asking because he was nervous that the creepy little thing might sneak into his room at night and eat him, it'd be nicer for his mom to tell him the truth.

For another, fun and fantasy play can still happen when parents are truthful and honesty. But as Sandra pointed out a parents reliability and credibility is not going to last long if she can't tell the truth.

It is a fact that a garden gnome cannot come to life. Neither can a bird bath or a fence post. Why not say so, if asked?

I know there are people who think that if a thing can't be entirely disproved there is some possibility, however small, that it might be true. They're agnostic about gnomes. But there are such things as reason and probability.

Deb Lewis





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Sandra Dodd

-=-At one point she asked if giants were real, or if cyclops were real. -=-

When I was in India, a girl asked me about zombies. She was in the 9/10 yr old range, give or take. There was a disconnect in the conversation for a while. I was answering from the movie and literature version of zombies. She was thinking maybe they were actually walking around in the US, but not in India. I'm really glad I figured that out. I told her what I knew off the top of my head (and briefly) about a belief that at one time over 100 years ago, there was some sort of voodoo drug that would make people seem dead but still be alive, or that could be used to enslave people, but I thought even that might not be really true, and the other stories had grown from that. She was visibly relieved that it was an element of fantasy story-telling and movie-making.

Someone made a list of qualifying statements in this thread (I looked but didn't find it), like "People believe..."

Kirby asked, when he was young, who was the first person on this planet. I said "Some people say..." and gave him the 25 word version of Adam and Eve, and "some people say we gradually evolved from monkeys" and briefly described that. He was too young for the differentiation between monkeys and apes. I said monkeys but we don't need to discuss that now 20+ years later.

He immediately asked which one I thought was right, and I said I used to believe one and now I believed the other.

Without time for me to breathe or think, he asked which one I thought now.

Had he been older, I probably would've gone into a variety of creation myths. Had google been around, I probably would have. But I told him people have lots of old stories to try to explain things they don't know, and that scientists kept finding evidence of pre-historic people. That was enough for him.

Adam and Eve are real and not fantasy, because they're a concept that's been written about, painted, sculpted, analyzed and employed to inspire and shame. Some people believe they're as real as anyone's dead ancestors might have been.

My best example for the meaning of "real" is people asking whether the swords people use for SCA combat "are real." They're not imaginary. People aren't hitting each other with air guitars out there. They are not "real swords" in that they're not made of sharpened steel. They ARE real bats with handles, made of rattan covered in fibre tape or duct tape (often both), perhaps padded on the end with foam or rubber inside tape, and sometimes not. THAT is real. I've seen real bruises on Kirby, Marty and Keith (and dozens of others who pulled clothing up or down to show me a particularly glorious bruise, and always knew which of their friends had done it to them, and what they might want to do next time in terms of better armor or greater defensive moves to avoid another one in the same place).

Yard gnomes are real like rattan swords are real.

Sandra

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Sandra Dodd

-=-There's an assumption here that I've decided it's delightful to answer my son's questions with "I don't know" as The Correct thing to do (click heels together and salute). I did use the word "correct", when maybe "authentic" would be better.-=-

Authentic wouldn't be better. :-)

There was not "an assumption... that you had decided." You TOLD us so. It's okay to tell us so, and it's okay for us to make assumptions.

If anything I wrote above didn't seem right/true/nice, please read (or re-read) three or four of the pages about Always Learning. This list isn't designed to be used without studying about it first. :-)

http://sandradodd.com/lists/alwayslearningNEW
http://sandradodd.com/lists/alwayslearningPOSTS
http://sandradodd.com/alwayslearning
http://sandradodd.com/lists/alwayslearning

Sandra



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julesmiel

--- In [email protected], "Deb Lewis" <d.lewis@...> wrote:
> For one thing, gnomes are scary. If kid was asking because he was
> nervous that the creepy little thing might sneak into his room at
> night and eat him, it'd be nicer for his mom to tell him the truth.

That's a good example, if they are scary. There's so much variety in response, in each of our responses, isn't there? Our responses are appropriate to the occasion.

I assume this is generally the nature of unschooling parents. I assume that they are flexible, not stiff and unrelenting.

Julie

julesmiel

--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:

> Kirby asked, when he was young, who was the first person on this planet. I said "Some people say..." and gave him the 25 word version of Adam and Eve, and "some people say we gradually evolved from monkeys" and briefly described that. He was too young for the differentiation between monkeys and apes. I said monkeys but we don't need to discuss >>that now 20+ years later.


I really liked reading about this, Sandra. This is what I love about exploring information, truths, and how they're viewed.

Julie

Sarah

Different children want different things of course, but when my young son (5) asks something like 'are dragons real?', what he wants is my real opinion.
He might well respond by saying that *he* thinks they are, but he definitely wants to know what I really think. 'I don't know' would be very unsatisfying for him, and untrue- in so far as human beings can attain knowledge about things outside their direct experience at all, I do know there are no dragons.
That doesn't mean that I squash his fantasy if he runs up to me and says 'there is a dragon living in the garden!'. And when I really don't know then I say so.
All this 'what can we really know about the world anyway, all we know is what we can experience' stuff can be fun for grown-ups, but I think the world is mysterious and confusing enough for small children, without parents getting all philosophical on them in response to a simple question.

Sarah

--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-Because if a parent can't go there with their child, then their child
> can't go there.-=-
>
> That doesn't seem right.
>
> Unless you're talking about really young children, children can have lots of interests their parents don't share.
>
> I'm talking about relationships and trust, though. If a parent isn't trustworthy, and if a parent isn't being a partner and a guide to help a child become more at home in the real world, unschooling won't work as well as otherwise.
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Sandra Dodd

-=-I guess this is how I tend to describe knowledge stuff:
- I've seen this.
- I haven't seen that.
- People say this.
- They used to think this and now they think that about it.
- Some people believe in this. Other people say it doesn't exist.-=-

There's that list. :-)

It's called qualifying statements. It's like giving references, or leaving the statement in a flexible form.

"It seems to me that..." can be good.
"It's possible that..."

I love this kind:
"- They used to think this and now they think that about it."

Sandra

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