Emily S

I am on a mothering board on which there is a discussion going on about radical unschooling. Several of the women there have read about radical unschooling and been in some groups and email lists (not sure which ones, though possibly this one.) I posted a snapshot of a part of our day and was told that I could not possibly be a radical unschooler because I don't let my children throw rocks at people among other things. Unfortunately they seem to have gotten the impression, from whatever unschoolers they read about, that to do anything other than let your children do whatever they want is not radical unschooling. I know that Sandra and the moderators of this list do not feel that way, but I am curious what you all *would* say about what I posted there. With your permission, I would like to share it on the other board as well, or if you could send me to one of your links that would be fitting, that would be great.

This is what I posted:
________________
You have made it clear that you are trying to break away from radical unschooling, so I won't try to make any suggestions since you have probably heard them all from the unschooling groups. I will just share what we do and how it works here, to be a voice of the other side both for you and anyone else who might be reading.

We are radical unschoolers, which means that like other unschoolers we recognize that children are hard wired to learn, but unlike other unschoolers, we extend that belief to include not only academic subjects, but the rest of life. We do not have arbitrary rules, bed times, food restrictions, tv restrictions etc.

We do NOT do TCS or any other form of non-coersive parenting. TCS is about never saying no. Radical unschooling is about learning and relationships.

I will tell you a little about our day today, so you can see how it works here. We went for a hike and dd2 wanted to wear her red sparkly shoes, which are not very good for climbing in. So, we brought her tennis shoes with us. When we got there, I noticed that it was not muddy (so the sparkly shoes would not get ruined) and that the trail was flat walking not hard climbing, so her shoes would probably be fine. Dh went ahead and suggested to her that she change into her tennis shoes, which she did.

We came to a part with a creek and a bridge and a big hill behind it. Dh took dd1 up the hill while I took dd2 on the bridge. She wanted to go down to the water. A TCS parent might be afraid to say no to this request either because of the potential meltdown or because of a belief that saying no might hinder their child's development. I do not fear saying no, but I said yes, out of a desire to facilitate learning and because I was enjoying exploring with her.

Of course, like any 2.5 year old, she wanted to get IN the water. I do not have a "rule" about getting wet on hikes. I do have the common sense to recognize that we did not bring any extra clothes and it is cold out. So, I explained that to her and said that she could not get in, but she could touch it with her hands. We climbed around the bank, on the rocks and under the bridge. I helped her lean in to put her hands in and lay on the rocks on her tummy so she could reach further out. I realized right before we were done, that she was doing a little experiment: Is the water cold where it's moving fast? Is it still cold where it's still? Is it cold by this rock? Is it still cold on the other side of the creek?

Meanwhile, dh was letting dd1 throw rocks off the top of the hill. Some parents have a standing rule about never throwing rocks. TCS would say that she "needs" to throw rocks and to stop her would be wrong. I don't agree with either one. Throwing the rocks was fine, until dd2 and I started walking toward them and could have gotten hit. Then dh had her stop for our safety. Radical unschooling is about learning and relationships. Part of having a good relationship is keeping everyone safe. If we need to say no to do that, we don't hesitate to do so. But we do explain because explanations lead to learning. And if a mutually agreeable solution can be found, for example, if she had asked to throw them the other direction, we would go allow that. However, she stopped without a problem.

That's just a brief snapshot of a part of a day, but that is how it works here. I do not fear saying no, but I do believe that children learn best with a lot of yes's. I give them the freedom to explore, make mistakes and learn about their own bodies, but we don't live in a vacuum, so I also take into account other people (including myself) and their feelings, property rights, and personal space.

I don't follow "RU principles," I follow Biblical principles. I try to make decisions mindfully and thoughtfully, putting our relationship, learning, safety and respect first. I have not given up my parental authority, I just use it to partner with my child and give her as much freedom as I can.

We do not have bed times, but we do help the kids get to sleep at an hour that is reasonable for everyone.

We do not restrict any food or have rules about food, but I do buy healthy foods and talk about why we eat the way we do.

We do not restrict tv, but I do provide lots of other interesting options AND watch shows with them and help them find things they are interested in.

I don't do any of those things to "be a radical unschooler." I do them because I have researched, prayed and deeply thought about each thing and slowly implemented it in our own lives. These were thoughtful, mindful decisions, not a full out abandonment of all rules so I could jump on the RU bandwagon.

_____________

Thank you!

Emily

sheeboo2

Emily,

I'm confused...you wrote: "I don't follow "RU principles," I follow Biblical principles."

If that is so, why are you asking unschoolers for their opinion? It seems both your and our time would be better spent asking a Biblical principles group.

I'm also not comfortable having words I post here copied and pasted elsewhere.

Brie

Emily S

--- In [email protected], "sheeboo2" <brmino@...> wrote:
>
> Emily,
>
> I'm confused...you wrote: "I don't follow "RU principles," I follow Biblical principles."
>
> If that is so, why are you asking unschoolers for their opinion? It seems both your and our time would be better spent asking a Biblical principles group.
>
> I'm also not comfortable having words I post here copied and pasted elsewhere.
>
> Brie
>

I am asking unschoolers for their opinion because I am an unschooler and value the opinions of people on this board.

I said that because I was responding to her implication that "RU principles" are a package deal with some over arching RU authority. There is no governing body who determines what "RU principles" are.

Emily

Jenny Cyphers

***I am asking unschoolers for their opinion because I am an unschooler and
value the opinions of people on this board.***

What you describe sounds very much like what I've seen and done myself. Perhaps
it's easier for me to envision what you are saying because I know you and can
hear your voice and see your mannerisms.


There are plenty of people who completely go for the package deal thing. Not to
bash the mothering boards, but I've seen it there and I've not been very
impressed with what is written and passed on in that forum. I think what you
are experiencing is the stuff Sandra has on her site about support... that
message board is all about support, not really about delving into the
unschooling philosophy. http://sandradodd.com/support/





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Joyce Fetteroll

On Feb 12, 2011, at 3:01 PM, Emily S wrote:

> I know that Sandra and the moderators of this list do not feel that
> way, but I am curious what you all *would* say about what I posted
> there. With your permission, I would like to share it on the other
> board as well, or if you could send me to one of your links that
> would be fitting, that would be great.

What you wrote paints a lovely picture. It's bound to intrigue
someone :-)

It's likely the people who are mischaracterizing radical unschooling
won't care what you wrote or what we might add. They're angry for
whatever reason. But what they said gave you the opportunity to put a
different picture out there and undoubtedly it's being read by people
who will silently take something from it.

Don't let the vocal people get you upset. They want you to think they
represent everyone but they don't. The people silently reading are far
more numerous.

Joyce

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Pam Sorooshian

On 2/12/2011 1:42 PM, Emily S wrote:
> I said that because I was responding to her implication that "RU
> principles" are a package deal with some over arching RU authority.
> There is no governing body who determines what "RU principles" are.


Emily -- I would suggest that you avoid using "RU" at all. In fact, I
was one of the first people to use the term "radical unschooling," but
I've stopped using it. I wish we could turn back the clock and go back
to using "radical" only as an occasional adjective, not as if it is
something completely different than other unschoolers. And now Dayna
Martin has appropriated the term and uses it to refer to unschooling
combined with a belief in the "Law of Attraction." So it seems like the
term has a lot of baggage associated with it, these days. I don't have
an urge to hang onto it - we don't need to define ourselves as a
particular group or subset of unschoolers. I'm feeling about it like I
do about calling kids, "gifted." The word is fine when used as part of a
description - "My son is a gifted writer," or "My husband is gifted
singer." That's using the word in a meaningful way as opposed to
dividing people up between those who are "gifted" and those are are,
apparently, "ungifted." I don't like the term used the way it is
most-often used, these days. Same with "radical unschooling" because it
has (erroneously) gotten the connotation of neglectful parenting.

I used to feel fine about the term "radical" because it has a real
connotation of taking something to its root and I felt like that's what
we were doing when we started applying unschooling principles to more
basic things like sleep and food, rather than just the the kinds of
things kids were supposed to learn in school. But, over time, the term
has come to mean things to a lot of people that we never ever intended -
and I think it is getting in the way of people even being willing to
consider the ideas that it (used to) encompass.

Instead of a new term, instead of a new label, I try very hard to simply
describe. I say, for example, "My family extended basic unschooling
ideas to all kinds of learning,"

What your wrote seems good to me, Emily. But the part about Biblical
principles is a tad confusing.

-pam


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Emily S

--- In [email protected], Pam Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...> wrote:

>
> Emily -- I would suggest that you avoid using "RU" at all.

I don't generally use "RU," I only used it to quote what she was saying since she was using it.


So it seems like the
> term has a lot of baggage associated with it, these days. I don't have
> an urge to hang onto it - we don't need to define ourselves as a
> particular group or subset of unschoolers.

That's really too bad. :( Maybe I'm out of the loop about how many people use the term who have combined it with TCS or Law of Attraction or whatever. I only read here and a local group and a few blogs, so while I know that those people are out there, it sounds like they are more numerous than I realized. They seem to be the ones people are finding when they try to learn about unschooling.

So, with so many people "kind of unschooling" or "unschooling some things" or just plain unschooling for academics, how do you distinguish what you are doing?

Emily

lspswr

Thank you Pam for giving a background on the RU term and also it's current direction -- helped clear up some questions for me.

In regard to the original post, I had to google TCS (which first came up as Total Control Systems, haha). Is Taking Children Seriously much a part of the unschooling community? Never heard of it, so am curious.

Thanks for the clarifications,
Linda

Sandra Dodd

-=- Is Taking Children Seriously much a part of the unschooling community?-=-

No.

Pam's take on "radical unschooling" is not my own. I don't mind the term. I don't accept that someone else who claims it and changes it can have it now. :-)

There's something I wrote a while back (and a few comments from others, but the longest part is from me:

http://sandradodd.com/unschool/radical



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Emily S

--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=- Is Taking Children Seriously much a part of the unschooling community?-=-
>
> No.
>


You have one page where you have a paragraph saying that you don't want to be associated with TCS, but if you could start a whole page about your thoughts (and others of course) on TCS that would be very handy to link to. I have read your thoughts on it here on the list, but people who are not on the list often confuse radical unschooling and TCS.

Emily

Pam Sorooshian

On 2/13/2011 7:34 PM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
> Pam's take on "radical unschooling" is not my own. I don't mind the
> term. I don't accept that someone else who claims it and changes it
> can have it now. :-)

I don't want to just give it away, but I'm finding the terminology is
getting in the way of the actual message. I seem to be spending a whole
lot of time, these days, clearing up what radical unschooling really is
because of the misconceptions that are now associated with the term. It
has always been there, a bit, but not so constantly like I'm running
into now.

I've had multiple people in the last month or two say, "Oh. I didn't
think you'd say that or do that, as a radical unschooler." This is
commonly in regard to very basic things - like not letting kids throw
sand in the face of another kid - they didn't think I would be in favor
of stopping the sand-throwing kid. I've heard, within the past week:
"I'm surprised to hear you cared about your children's behavior." What
the heck? For us, all of life was about character - it has all been
about behavior, really.

Radical unschooler seems to have gotten the reputation of being an even
more extreme version of the Taking Children Seriously/Noncoercive
Parenting ideology. If I start out talking about radical unschooling, I
can tell that people are shutting their minds immediately. I had someone
say, "I have NO interest in radical unschooling," but then, as I talked
to her, what she was interested in was actually exactly what we here
mean by the term.

So - if I use the term, then I have to counter the preconceived notions
people have - that's extra effort, an extra hurdle, that I don't have to
deal with if I just avoid the terminology and talk, instead, about ideas
and principles directly. That's what I meant when I said I've stopped
using it. I just use unschooling, most of the time, since that seems not
to set people on edge and get them all hostile and close-minded the way
"radical unschooling" does.


-pam





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Sandra Dodd

-=-I have read your thoughts on it here on the list, but people who are not on the list often confuse radical unschooling and TCS. -=-

Some people do both, and that's fine. I know a couple of people who picked it up and used it (or ideas from it) 10 years ago when someone was active on unschooling.com, and some of the TCS ("Taking Children Seriously") people said they unschooled, but I don't think there was really a lot of overlap, and it's been a long time.

I object to anyone suggesting that any other philosophy or religion or cargo-cult thinking is necessary, or that it makes unschooling better. Unschooling can co-exist with most other ideas, but the ideas of John Holt, and the reported experiences of the dozens of regulars and hundreds of short-term reporters shared on my pages and Joyce's, and the discussions on this list and a few others have sufficient information that no one needs an overlay of any other ABC, XYZ this-or-that. And some things are harmful to unschooling when they go beyond what is good for families or what makes sense. If children need to be told "don't ask" or if they're told they can have anything on earth they want, those aspects can hamper learning, and damage the relationship between the parents and children. If the parents are open to sharing what they know and why ("because" and "I'm your mom and I said so" aren't good learning tools), and they help their children learn to live in the world (not in an imaginary magical world), then that's fine with me.

Some religious are conducive to unschooling and others, not so much. There's no reason to sort through them, because each parent who looks at unschooling is looking through her own eyes, with her own knowledge and base beliefs. It doesn't work for everyone.

Some people figure out how to unschool in less than ideal circumstances, or they adapt it to fit an unusual situation.
Some people can't figure it out even in an idyllic setting.

Sometimes it's not so much that people actually confuse radical unschooling with something else as that they want to disparage it and so throw all the insults they can muster. It's an ancient tool of prejudice and shunning, and because we're doing something so different, people are going to lash out in defense and sometimes in attack. "I can explain it if you want to understand it" might be the best thing you can do sometimes.

That original story of the rock throwing was a good one. I liked it. Sometimes it's okay to throw rocks and sometimes it isn't. Living by principles rather than rules, neither "never" nor "always" is true. Living by rules of "never," less thinking is required. When there's less thinking, there's less learning. Living by principles requires more thinking, and greater parental involvement. That leads to more learning AND to better relationships.

Sandra

P.S. I'll save this, and that original description, at http://sandradodd.com/misconceptions (but it's not there yet, for those who read this immediately)




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dola dasgupta-banerji

.>>>>>> "I can explain it if you want to understand it" might be the best
thing you can do sometimes. <<<<<<<

The other day we took our dog to the Vet and as always adults in India when
talking to kids ask the same questions. What is your name and which school
do you go to?

Gourika is now used to those questions. So she said "I do not go to school".
Then the vet asked me why. I meet this man only once in three months at the
moment and for 20 minutes. So I told him if I start answering that question
then we might have to get into a very long conversation!!!! And thanked him
and left.

It is important I guess to see who is asking this question and how important
that relationship is to us for me to answer or explain.

Dola


On Mon, Feb 14, 2011 at 5:04 PM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:

>
>
> -=-I have read your thoughts on it here on the list, but people who are not
> on the list often confuse radical unschooling and TCS. -=-
>
> Some people do both, and that's fine. I know a couple of people who picked
> it up and used it (or ideas from it) 10 years ago when someone was active on
> unschooling.com, and some of the TCS ("Taking Children Seriously") people
> said they unschooled, but I don't think there was really a lot of overlap,
> and it's been a long time.
>
> I object to anyone suggesting that any other philosophy or religion or
> cargo-cult thinking is necessary, or that it makes unschooling better.
> Unschooling can co-exist with most other ideas, but the ideas of John Holt,
> and the reported experiences of the dozens of regulars and hundreds of
> short-term reporters shared on my pages and Joyce's, and the discussions on
> this list and a few others have sufficient information that no one needs an
> overlay of any other ABC, XYZ this-or-that. And some things are harmful to
> unschooling when they go beyond what is good for families or what makes
> sense. If children need to be told "don't ask" or if they're told they can
> have anything on earth they want, those aspects can hamper learning, and
> damage the relationship between the parents and children. If the parents are
> open to sharing what they know and why ("because" and "I'm your mom and I
> said so" aren't good learning tools), and they help their children learn to
> live in the world (not in an imaginary magical world), then that's fine with
> me.
>
> Some religious are conducive to unschooling and others, not so much.
> There's no reason to sort through them, because each parent who looks at
> unschooling is looking through her own eyes, with her own knowledge and base
> beliefs. It doesn't work for everyone.
>
> Some people figure out how to unschool in less than ideal circumstances, or
> they adapt it to fit an unusual situation.
> Some people can't figure it out even in an idyllic setting.
>
> Sometimes it's not so much that people actually confuse radical unschooling
> with something else as that they want to disparage it and so throw all the
> insults they can muster. It's an ancient tool of prejudice and shunning, and
> because we're doing something so different, people are going to lash out in
> defense and sometimes in attack. "I can explain it if you want to understand
> it" might be the best thing you can do sometimes.
>
> That original story of the rock throwing was a good one. I liked it.
> Sometimes it's okay to throw rocks and sometimes it isn't. Living by
> principles rather than rules, neither "never" nor "always" is true. Living
> by rules of "never," less thinking is required. When there's less thinking,
> there's less learning. Living by principles requires more thinking, and
> greater parental involvement. That leads to more learning AND to better
> relationships.
>
> Sandra
>
> P.S. I'll save this, and that original description, at
> http://sandradodd.com/misconceptions (but it's not there yet, for those
> who read this immediately)
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

So - if I use the term,...-=-
[Radical Unschooling...]

-=-So - if I use the term, then I have to counter the preconceived notions
people have - that's extra effort, an extra hurdle, that I don't have to
deal with if I just avoid the terminology and talk, instead, about ideas
and principles directly. That's what I meant when I said I've stopped
using it. I just use unschooling, most of the time, since that seems not
to set people on edge and get them all hostile and close-minded the way
"radical unschooling" does.-=-

True, true, and I think (though I'm not positive) that I almost always say "unschooling" unless I'm involved in a discussion about the difference between unschooling and "radical unschooling."

But because the learning people expect children to do (and that children pretty much cannot help but do) involves all SORTS of things besides math/language/science/history, that learning involves courtesy, manners, ethics, music, art, sports/dance/games, computers... The way they will learn those things is the way they will learn the academics **IF** the parents are living a life filled with math/language/science/history, courtesy, manners, ethics, music, art, sports/dance/games, computers...

If unschooling isn't better than school, if the kids would be better off in school, then unschooling is a bad match for that family.

But in a family where it DOES work, it works because it's radical unschooling and not "just" unschooling. Because "just" unschooling can be defined and discussed as rules and punishments galore, but no curriculum for academics.

When I talk to strangers, relatives, friends about our homeschooling I always said "we're unschoolers" or "we don't use a curriculum." I have no bumper stickers about radical unschooling. I have no flags waving about radical unschooling. I did name my page radical unschooling a long time ago because expage.com/unschooling was already taken. When I moved the entire code to http://sandradodd.com/unschooling I kept it just as it had been, though I've since been able to expand it because I was no longer limited to a certain number of characters as I was when it looked like this:
http://web.archive.org/web/20010224044931/http://expage.com/radicalunschooling
It was in the name of the page, which showed up on that top line by default, but I didn't use the term in the rest of the page.

My current version of that page:
http://sandradodd.com/unschooling
"Radical" only appears in the title.

Sandra




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Emily S

--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:

>
> P.S. I'll save this, and that original description, at http://sandradodd.com/misconceptions (but it's not there yet, for those who read this immediately)
>


Thanks! I was not the one who asked "is TCS part of the unschooling community" though, that was another poster. :)

Emily

k

Unschooling what is culturally scholastic is a radical idea already.

Then by extension, radical unschooling, is an even more radical
thought since John Holt appropriated an existing word --unschooled--
originally meaning uneducated; yet inspired by another word; see link
below. That word was to describe his concepts of greater freedom of
choice in learning as well as in decision making in all of life.

Love the fun page here on the origin of the term unschooling:
http://sandradodd.com/unschool/theterm

The radical idea was to begin in childhood to learn and to make
decisions rather than hold off until adulthood.

I'd like to read his book about learning to play cello as an adult to
see if he writes there about children and unschooling in connection to
that experience. And also just because that's one of my favorite
instruments.

The term unschooling is difficult enough for most people that I don't
use it except with other parents who are unschooling. I have said it
to some family members, and learned to forget the idea of using it
again with them. Too conflicted a notion for people who are *not*
unschooling. Double ditto for the term radical unschooling.

~Katherine

Sandra Dodd

-=-Thanks! I was not the one who asked "is TCS part of the unschooling community" though, that was another poster. :)-=-

Thanks. I'll fix it. Soon. Or tomorrow. :-)

Sandra

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Jenny Cyphers

*** but people who are not on the list often confuse radical unschooling and
TCS. ***


I don't think the TCS people would like that much! There are people who
practice that who are unschoolers but there are those that practice TCS who are
not. The part about TCS that really bothers me the most is the whole taking
TRUTH too seriously. It's a weird philosophy on truth, IMO. The seeking of
truth while acknowledging that there is no such thing.... and then somehow
superimposing that idea onto raising children.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jenny Cyphers

*** I seem to be spending a whole
lot of time, these days, clearing up what radical unschooling really is
because of the misconceptions that are now associated with the term. It
has always been there, a bit, but not so constantly like I'm running
into now.***

Me too! The food issue seems to be a huge stumbling block in that mix too.
I've heard people say, "I'm not a radical unschooler because I won't let my
child eat ______ , and that child has a severe allergy to it."

It is soooo not how I look at food or radical unschooling. People sometimes
have allergies, big deal. What most kids, and adults have a hard time with is
the feeling of not being able to have whatever it is they can't have. Eliminate
that and it's golden! Chocolate chip cookies, even if you can't eat gluten? No
problem, find an alternative and keep that around. Someone has regular cookies
at a potluck? No problem, bring an alternative with you, knowing that it will
be there, and if the alternative isn't eaten, then we deal with the outcome of
not feeling all that great.

It seems to me that, people assume that radical unschooling means letting kids
do whatever they want to without any regard for anything other than immediate
self pleasing. That isn't at all what it's about. It means, to me, that people
need to eat and sleep and feel happy and comfortable and at peace with the
world. It goes back to nest building.... a foundation in which to live, and
through that, kids can learn because the environment is ripe for it. Kids who
are allergic to dairy and have nothing but milk to drink in the fridge do NOT
live in a house that is comfortable. If a mom lets her kid throw sand in
another child's face and then ends up with no friends, that is NOT a happy kid
at peace with the world.

More and more, and maybe I'm just getting older, I'm finding that peace is a BIG
deal for unschooling to thrive. Creating peace is a huge undertaking, but at
the heart of it, a parent must be peaceful.





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Sandra Dodd

-=- The part about TCS that really bothers me the most is the whole taking
TRUTH too seriously. It's a weird philosophy on truth, IMO. The seeking of
truth while acknowledging that there is no such thing.... and then somehow
superimposing that idea onto raising children.-=-

Simultaneously, they won't "tell the truth" about what they're doing.
They don't discuss their own families or actions, only the philosophical ideas.

In my opinion, in my experience on earth and with how history and religion work, stating a philosophical point without trying it out or without having examples of "worked" and "didn't work as well" is just talk.

Sandra

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Pam Sorooshian

On 2/14/2011 3:29 PM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
>
> But in a family where it DOES work, it works because it's radical
> unschooling and not "just" unschooling. Because "just" unschooling can
> be defined and discussed as rules and punishments galore, but no
> curriculum for academics.

For me, I started out thinking of unschooling only as natural learning -
no curriculum for academics. But the logic of it soon seeped over, for
me, into all kinds of learning. It wasn't a big stretch to go from "no
curriculum needed" to "no teaching of academic subjects needed" to "no
teaching of all kinds of other things needed." "Teaching" means, to me,
the kind of thing school teachers do or parents do to "teach a lesson."
In particular, teaching involves rewards and punishments as well as the
teacher deciding what the child is supposed to learn and when and how.
I don't mean teaching by being a good example or by creating a great
environment for learning, etc.

So - anyway - I think "just unschooling" can work out well because it
tends to move people toward extending the same principles to all kinds
of learning. Even if people don't get all the way to "radical," the kids
could be living much better lives than the schooled alternatives. When
parents and kids stop fighting and struggling over schoolwork, their
relationship might improve a lot. And, they might stop struggling over
all kinds of other things, too.

-pam

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
>From: Pam Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...>

"Teaching" means, to me,
>the kind of thing school teachers do or parents do to "teach a lesson."
>In particular, teaching involves rewards and punishments as well as the
>teacher deciding what the child is supposed to learn and when and how.
>I don't mean teaching by being a good example or by creating a great
>environment for learning, etc.

For me, I don't have a problem with the word "teach" if the person being taught wants what's being offered.

There are people who know things I'd like to know. If I don't know how to pot on a wheel, and someone shows me, isn't that teaching?

Is it just a question of semantics? Or am I missing something foundational? Is it better to call something like that "sharing knowledge" because "teaching" has such baggage?

Michelle

Wife to Bob
Momma to George (12), Theo (9), Eli (6), and Oliver (18 mo)

If my life wasn't funny, it would just be true, and that's unacceptable.
-- Carrie Fisher

Robin Bentley

>
> There are people who know things I'd like to know. If I don't know
> how to pot on a wheel, and someone shows me, isn't that teaching?

But "teach" pre-supposes that "learning" will happen. What if you
don't learn how to pot on a wheel, even though someone "teaches" you?
>
> Is it just a question of semantics? Or am I missing something
> foundational? Is it better to call something like that "sharing
> knowledge" because "teaching" has such baggage?

Unschoolers tend to focus on the learning, not the teaching. Sometimes
what people think they're teaching is not what the learner is
learning. Like a parent trying to teach respect by spanking their
kids. What are the kids learning? Respect? Probably not.

Here's a good page on the difference between teaching and learning:

http://sandradodd.com/teaching/

Robin B.

Sandra Dodd

-=-
Is it just a question of semantics? Or am I missing something foundational? Is it better to call something like that "sharing knowledge" because "teaching" has such baggage?-=-

Nothing is just a question of semantics.
You are missing something foundational. :-)

It's better to say "I'm learning to throw pots."

But best of all would be to read this:
http://sandradodd.com/wordswords

Sandra

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Pam Sorooshian

On 2/16/2011 5:21 AM, michmag5@... wrote:
> For me, I don't have a problem with the word "teach" if the person
> being taught wants what's being offered.


I think it is a super useful exercise to try to avoid using the word
"teach" when "learn" will do.

"I want someone to teach me ..........." versus "I want to learn
..............." Fill in the blanks with things like:

"I want someone to teach me to speak Spanish" versus "I want to learn to
speak Spanish."

or

"I am teaching Jane to read," versus "Jane is learning to read."


Can you see how the second statement opens up a lot more possibilities
than the first? Where is the activity happening? Who has the power? Even
when a person wants to learn what is being taught, it is still better to
put the emphasis, the focus, on the learning rather than the teaching.
By "better" I mean more conducive to thinking of learning in a deeper
way, outside of subjects and lessons and lectures and tests and grades
and all that schoolish (teachery) stuff.

"Teach" carries a lot of baggage with it, and we can shed that baggage
more easily if we change our language and our thinking. Teaching is not
only unnecessary for learning, it is often counterproductive to
learning. Teachers like to think they are two sides of the same coin,
but that's just not true, in practice.

My mom used to argue with me, saying that I'd "taught" my kids to read.
I insisted that I did not "teach" them. I didn't plan when they were to
be taught. I didn't create reading lessons. I didn't give them practice
exercises. I didn't test them. I had no schedule for them.

She used to say, "Yes, but you did what the best teachers do - you
answered all their questions, you surrounded them with a print-rich
environment, you modeled reading, you read aloud to them, you played
word games, and so on.

Yes, I'd agree, I had done all that, but that didn't turn me into a
teacher and I did not teach my kids to read. If somebody hired a
"reading teacher" they would expect them to actually teach, to instruct,
to plan some kind of lessons, to try to insure the child was making
progress and to assess that progress.

Unschoolers sometimes utilize teachers. But, by being careful with the
words we use, we are more able to avoid confusing their teaching with
our learning.

-pam

Alex

Pam Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
> I don't want to just give it away, but I'm finding the terminology is
> getting in the way of the actual message. I seem to be spending a whole
> lot of time, these days, clearing up what radical unschooling really is
> because of the misconceptions that are now associated with the term. It
> has always been there, a bit, but not so constantly like I'm running
> into now.

I'd like to take this opportunity to say thanks. I have taken to telling anyone curious about unschooling that they really should read stuff by people like you, Pam, and Sandra and Meredith, and others here: folks with multiple kids, who have been unschooling a long time and have at least one kid who is at least a teenager, and a happy, intact marriage. Read what really has worked for people for years on end. I know Sandra has requested that we not say just "thanks," but I thought that might be advice other might want to give as well.

In the last 4 years, between online, especially on boards that are specifically for kids younger than school age, and in real life, I have seen so much unschooling advice given that people later either didn't believe or just couldn't sustain. I know 2 moms that strove so desperately to be perfect, selfless moms to their first that they literally had pretty intense nervous breakdowns when their second came along. I've seen multiple families switch to a Waldorf curriculum because they felt unschooling allowed their kids to talk to them in ways they were not OK with, or because the husband was unhappy with kids up late at night. In the same vein, multiple moms I know have had to get IV fluids or had seizures lately because they were nursing older toddlers on demand even while vomiting or otherwise pretty sick. I'm nursing a 3 1/2 year old. I think it's awesome. But I limit it when I'm sick, and I'm so frustrated to know that so many people feel they *have* to to the point of hurting their own health. I don't mean to insult these moms. I think they're wonderful. I just want people to get information on living an unschooling life that's a nice way to live for a long time for everyone in the family. I'm tired of seeing the baby tossed out with the bathwater.

Honestly, I think part of the problem is that some unschoolers are so quick to tell others that they aren't really unschoolers because of X Y or Z. Maybe if there was a little more tact and encouragement so many people wouldn't bail on the concept altogether. (I know, that's not what this board is for, and that's fine by me.) I was sad to be told lately by a non-unschooling homeschooler that someone "says she an unschooler but other people say she can't be because her daughter takes classes." It just seems messed up that all these nice people who do just one not unschool-y thing--like what was the scandal about that conference? the speaker required that her son brush his teeth?--and a bunch of actual unschoolers who just don't want to be judged, just decide to call themselves something different. And then the folks who call themselves unschoolers may be the ones who either don't quite get it (not that I think I totally do yet!) or won't stick with it because what they are doing isn't sustainable for them. I asked a different local relatively new to homeschooling mom what surprised her at the last homeschooling conference, and she said, "I learned that those unschoolers are full of shit! They say they don't do anything educational, but they do tons of educational stuff!" I was so shocked, not least because I know she knows multiple unschooling families.

Didn't mean to rant at you guys. Thanks for letting us know what works for you, and please keep it coming!

Alex N.

Jenny Cyphers

***I'm so frustrated to know that so many people feel they *have* to to the
point of hurting their own health. I don't mean to insult these moms. I think
they're wonderful. I just want people to get information on living an
unschooling life that's a nice way to live for a long time for everyone in the
family.***

I wouldn't think they were wonderful. I know lots of wonderful moms. If it
were a sliding scale, 10 being the most wonderful, maybe moms like that are on
the 6 or 7 of getting there and moms of the scream and yell and hit their kids
or neglect to feed them, being a zero. So, those moms are above average
working towards being the wonderful mom that they aspire to be. That's an
assumption. I don't know those moms.

***Honestly, I think part of the problem is that some unschoolers are so quick
to tell others that they aren't really unschoolers because of X Y or Z. Maybe if
there was a little more tact and encouragement so many people wouldn't bail on
the concept altogether.***

I don't know... If a mom can't stop doing what she's doing that is hindering
unschooling, then why call it that? Why call it unschooling? I used to attend
this semi regular play day meetup where everyone was unschooling. In reality,
the parents that showed up there were really strict about food and manners and
whatnot. It wasn't happy or fun or nice. The kids would get upset as a direct
cause of the kind of parenting these mothers were doing. I stopped going. They
probably still call in unschooling, but it certainly wasn't anything that I've
seen that led into the light of happy unschooling. I can't stand there and give
my child ultimatums and knowingly watch that's child's face fall into sadness,
and STILL do it. I just can't. It's not that all of life is one great big
happy bubble, but I try my best to not be the unhappy piece that pops it.

If people don't want to do what it takes to unschool, then they shouldn't
unschool, and they shouldn't call it that. Chamille said the other day that it
seemed like some people want to say they unschool to feel like a part of some
"cool" club, that they just go through the motions of it but never actually
change anything to make their kids' lives all happy and awesome.

Encouragement is a good thing. Being blunt and honest is a good thing too. No
matter how nice someone is, if they are perceived as being rude, it doesn't
change the niceness. That rudeness is within that own person's thoughts.
That's a huge mirror that some people can't or won't ever look into. A child
is only a child for a very short time and parents only get one shot at it.
Getting unschooling up and running sooner, is better, IF that's what you want
to do. If that's not the goal, then who cares?

There are some things that simply don't mesh with unschooling. I've seen enough
of it to know and see the outcomes of that.





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BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

<<<< I have taken to telling anyone curious about unschooling that they really
should read stuff by people like you, Pam, and Sandra and Meredith, and others
here: folks with multiple kids, who have been unschooling a long time and have
at least one kid who is at least a teenager, and a happy, intact marriage. >>>

 There are wonderful unschoolers like Joyce Fetterol, Deb Lewis  ( those just at
the top of my head) who only have on child! They are not parents of multiple
kids
but I love their voices.

<<<<<<<<<In the last 4 years, between online, especially on boards that are
specifically for kids younger than school age, and in real life, I have seen so
much unschooling advice given that people later either didn't believe or just
couldn't sustain. I know 2 moms that strove so desperately to be perfect,
selfless moms to their first that they literally had pretty intense nervous
breakdowns when their second came along.>>>>>>>>>>>>

 But that was not about unschooling. I have seen that at least once just like
that and I think it was because the mother did not fully understand unschooling.
  Just because one comes to an unschooling group and posts on it many times it
does not mean they fully understand unschooling the way it is discussed here in
this group.  Just because a mother lets a child hits her in the face it does not
mean that mother is striving for being a perfect mother. And yes I have heard
that!

 <<<<<<<<< I've seen multiple families switch to a Waldorf curriculum because
they felt unschooling allowed their kids to talk to them in ways they were not
OK with, or because the husband was unhappy with kids up late at night. In the
same vein, multiple moms I know have had to get IV fluids or had seizures lately
because they were nursing older toddlers on demand even while vomiting or
otherwise pretty sick.>>>>>>>>>>>

It was not "unschooling that allowed their kids to talk to them in the ways they
were not OK with". Unschooling does not allow or disallow anything on anyone's
home.

It was the lack of understanding unschooling and a lack of being a partner to
your children and your partner.
To your children because kids do want to be nice to their dads and need guidance
and presence and to your partner because his needs were not taken in
consideration.
About the nursing , if you are too sick to nurse then you are too sick. Nursing
a toddler on demand will not make someone have to get IV fluids unless that
person is dehidrated for other reasons like being sick, or not taking in enough
fluids.  Again that is not unschooling if someone is not taking care of their
own health or someone is sick.

There are no unschooling rules.

<<<<I was sad to be told lately by a non-unschooling homeschooler that someone
"says she an unschooler but other people say she can't be because her daughter
takes classes.">>>>>>>


Why was that sad for you?  If she did not even consider herself and unschooler?
 I have seen some people come to groups and say :"I did not know until today
that I was an unschooler all along" But this people never really unschooled.
They may have not followed a curriculum but once they start talking about it 
what they did is not the same as  discussed here at all!



 <<<<<<<It just seems messed up that all these nice people who do just one not
unschool-y thing--like what was the scandal about that conference? the speaker
required that her son brush his teeth?--and a bunch of actual unschoolers who
just don't want to be judged, just decide to call themselves something
different>>>>>>>>

I have not heard of that incident but there are people that call themselves
unschoolers but they teach math curriculum or they require kids to read at least
15 minutes a day, or cannot watch TV , or cannot play video games, or only a
prescribed amount of screen time a day, or kids cannot eat anything not deamed
"healthy", or they cannot drinl pop/soda,......

It seems like you feel more people should  be unschoolers but I find that many 
parents would not be good unschoolers.

Not everyone can or should unschool.


Alex Polikowsky

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k

>>>I asked a different local relatively new to homeschooling mom what surprised her at the last homeschooling conference, and she said, "I learned that those unschoolers are full of shit! They say they don't do anything educational, but they do tons of educational stuff!" I was so shocked, not least because I know she knows multiple unschooling families.<<<

Can you explain this? It doesn't make sense to me.

Is this:
>>>a different local relatively new to homeschooling mom<<<

the same person as this:
>>>she knows multiple unschooling families<<<

Also, how do you know that she knows multiple unschooling families? Do
you both know them? Or did she say she knows them? Or does she know
their names or know of them?

I'm asking because if this person knows these families well then I'm
not sure how she came to the conclusions she has come to. It makes no
sense to me.

For myself, I doubt seriously if people know me unless I consider them
to be friends. They can surmise or guess or conclude in their heads
some opinion about how I live without really knowing me that well or
having any real clue how I live on a daily basis.

~Katherine

Sandra Dodd

-=- I just want people to get information on living an unschooling life that's a nice way to live for a long time for everyone in the family. -=-

Me, too.
I've been trying to provide that for a long, long time. Unfortunately, it's not easy to understand, and some people think they "have to" let their kids stay up as late as they want, no matter how old they are or who's up with them, or what the circumstances of the evening are or what the arrangement of their house is.

-=- she said, "I learned that those unschoolers are full of shit! They say they don't do anything educational, but they do tons of educational stuff!" -=-

I don't use the word "educational" of what I think unschoolers should be doing. I created a learning environment without using the word "educational." That doesn't make me full of shit.

Some people see the world through shit-colored glasses. All the time and energy you were spending worring about others could be better spent on your own children's happiness.

Sandra

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