the other side
MotherCrone
this article was forwarded to me .... if read as a what not to do to raise well rounded happy and successful children it is use full :)... thought I would share...
Why Chinese Mothers Are Superior
Can a regimen of no playdates, no TV, no computer games and hours of music practice create happy kids? And what happens when they fight back?
By AMY CHUA
A lot of people wonder how Chinese parents raise such stereotypically successful kids. They wonder what these parents do to produce so many math whizzes and music prodigies, what it's like inside the family, and whether they could do it too. Well, I can tell them, because I've done it. Here are some things my daughters, Sophia and Louisa, were never allowed to do:
View Full Image
Erin Patrice O'Brien for The Wall Street Journal
Amy Chua with her daughters, Louisa and Sophia, at their home in New Haven, Conn.
attend a sleepover
have a playdate
be in a school play
complain about not being in a school play
watch TV or play computer games
choose their own extracurricular activities
get any grade less than an A
not be the No. 1 student in every subject except gym and drama
play any instrument other than the piano or violin
not play the piano or violin.
I'm using the term "Chinese mother" loosely. I know some Korean, Indian, Jamaican, Irish and Ghanaian parents who qualify too. Conversely, I know some mothers of Chinese heritage, almost always born in the West, who are not Chinese mothers, by choice or otherwise. I'm also using the term "Western parents" loosely. Western parents come in all varieties.
View Full Image
Chua family
From Ms. Chua's album: 'Mean me with Lulu in hotel room... with score taped to TV!'
All the same, even when Western parents think they're being strict, they usually don't come close to being Chinese mothers. For example, my Western friends who consider themselves strict make their children practice their instruments 30 minutes every day. An hour at most. For a Chinese mother, the first hour is the easy part. It's hours two and three that get tough.
Despite our squeamishness about cultural stereotypes, there are tons of studies out there showing marked and quantifiable differences between Chinese and Westerners when it comes to parenting. In one study of 50 Western American mothers and 48 Chinese immigrant mothers, almost 70% of the Western mothers said either that "stressing academic success is not good for children" or that "parents need to foster the idea that learning is fun." By contrast, roughly 0% of the Chinese mothers felt the same way. Instead, the vast majority of the Chinese mothers said that they believe their children can be "the best" students, that "academic achievement reflects successful parenting," and that if children did not excel at school then there was "a problem" and parents "were not doing their job." Other studies indicate that compared to Western parents, Chinese parents spend approximately 10 times as long every day drilling academic activities with their children. By contrast, Western kids are more likely to participate in sports teams.
When it comes to parenting, the Chinese seem to produce children who display academic excellence, musical mastery and professional success - or so the stereotype goes. WSJ's Christina Tsuei speaks to two moms raised by Chinese immigrants who share what it was like growing up and how they hope to raise their children.
More Parenting Videos
Teaching Math to Spark Creative Thinking
Can Bilingualism Make Preschoolers Smarter?
What Chinese parents understand is that nothing is fun until you're good at it. To get good at anything you have to work, and children on their own never want to work, which is why it is crucial to override their preferences. This often requires fortitude on the part of the parents because the child will resist; things are always hardest at the beginning, which is where Western parents tend to give up. But if done properly, the Chinese strategy produces a virtuous circle. Tenacious practice, practice, practice is crucial for excellence; rote repetition is underrated in America. Once a child starts to excel at somethingwhether it's math, piano, pitching or ballethe or she gets praise, admiration and satisfaction. This builds confidence and makes the once not-fun activity fun. This in turn makes it easier for the parent to get the child to work even more.
Chinese parents can get away with things that Western parents can't. Once when I was youngmaybe more than oncewhen I was extremely disrespectful to my mother, my father angrily called me "garbage" in our native Hokkien dialect. It worked really well. I felt terrible and deeply ashamed of what I had done. But it didn't damage my self-esteem or anything like that. I knew exactly how highly he thought of me. I didn't actually think I was worthless or feel like a piece of garbage.
As an adult, I once did the same thing to Sophia, calling her garbage in English when she acted extremely disrespectfully toward me. When I mentioned that I had done this at a dinner party, I was immediately ostracized. One guest named Marcy got so upset she broke down in tears and had to leave early. My friend Susan, the host, tried to rehabilitate me with the remaining guests.
The fact is that Chinese parents can do things that would seem unimaginableeven legally actionableto Westerners. Chinese mothers can say to their daughters, "Hey fattylose some weight." By contrast, Western parents have to tiptoe around the issue, talking in terms of "health" and never ever mentioning the f-word, and their kids still end up in therapy for eating disorders and negative self-image. (I also once heard a Western father toast his adult daughter by calling her "beautiful and incredibly competent." She later told me that made her feel like garbage.)
Chinese parents can order their kids to get straight As. Western parents can only ask their kids to try their best. Chinese parents can say, "You're lazy. All your classmates are getting ahead of you." By contrast, Western parents have to struggle with their own conflicted feelings about achievement, and try to persuade themselves that they're not disappointed about how their kids turned out.
I've thought long and hard about how Chinese parents can get away with what they do. I think there are three big differences between the Chinese and Western parental mind-sets.
Chua family
Newborn Amy Chua in her mother's arms, a year after her parents arrived in the U.S.
Weigh in
Amy Chua will answer readers' questions Thursday on Review's new blog, Ideas Market.
Write to: IdeasMarket@....
First, I've noticed that Western parents are extremely anxious about their children's self-esteem. They worry about how their children will feel if they fail at something, and they constantly try to reassure their children about how good they are notwithstanding a mediocre performance on a test or at a recital. In other words, Western parents are concerned about their children's psyches. Chinese parents aren't. They assume strength, not fragility, and as a result they behave very differently.
For example, if a child comes home with an A-minus on a test, a Western parent will most likely praise the child. The Chinese mother will gasp in horror and ask what went wrong. If the child comes home with a B on the test, some Western parents will still praise the child. Other Western parents will sit their child down and express disapproval, but they will be careful not to make their child feel inadequate or insecure, and they will not call their child "stupid," "worthless" or "a disgrace." Privately, the Western parents may worry that their child does not test well or have aptitude in the subject or that there is something wrong with the curriculum and possibly the whole school. If the child's grades do not improve, they may eventually schedule a meeting with the school principal to challenge the way the subject is being taught or to call into question the teacher's credentials.
If a Chinese child gets a Bwhich would never happenthere would first be a screaming, hair-tearing explosion. The devastated Chinese mother would then get dozens, maybe hundreds of practice tests and work through them with her child for as long as it takes to get the grade up to an A.
Chinese parents demand perfect grades because they believe that their child can get them. If their child doesn't get them, the Chinese parent assumes it's because the child didn't work hard enough. That's why the solution to substandard performance is always to excoriate, punish and shame the child. The Chinese parent believes that their child will be strong enough to take the shaming and to improve from it. (And when Chinese kids do excel, there is plenty of ego-inflating parental praise lavished in the privacy of the home.)
View Full Image
Chua family
Sophia playing at Carnegie Hall in 2007.
Second, Chinese parents believe that their kids owe them everything. The reason for this is a little unclear, but it's probably a combination of Confucian filial piety and the fact that the parents have sacrificed and done so much for their children. (And it's true that Chinese mothers get in the trenches, putting in long grueling hours personally tutoring, training, interrogating and spying on their kids.) Anyway, the understanding is that Chinese children must spend their lives repaying their parents by obeying them and making them proud.
By contrast, I don't think most Westerners have the same view of children being permanently indebted to their parents. My husband, Jed, actually has the opposite view. "Children don't choose their parents," he once said to me. "They don't even choose to be born. It's parents who foist life on their kids, so it's the parents' responsibility to provide for them. Kids don't owe their parents anything. Their duty will be to their own kids." This strikes me as a terrible deal for the Western parent.
Third, Chinese parents believe that they know what is best for their children and therefore override all of their children's own desires and preferences. That's why Chinese daughters can't have boyfriends in high school and why Chinese kids can't go to sleepaway camp. It's also why no Chinese kid would ever dare say to their mother, "I got a part in the school play! I'm Villager Number Six. I'll have to stay after school for rehearsal every day from 3:00 to 7:00, and I'll also need a ride on weekends." God help any Chinese kid who tried that one.
Don't get me wrong: It's not that Chinese parents don't care about their children. Just the opposite. They would give up anything for their children. It's just an entirely different parenting model.
Here's a story in favor of coercion, Chinese-style. Lulu was about 7, still playing two instruments, and working on a piano piece called "The Little White Donkey" by the French composer Jacques Ibert. The piece is really cuteyou can just imagine a little donkey ambling along a country road with its masterbut it's also incredibly difficult for young players because the two hands have to keep schizophrenically different rhythms.
Lulu couldn't do it. We worked on it nonstop for a week, drilling each of her hands separately, over and over. But whenever we tried putting the hands together, one always morphed into the other, and everything fell apart. Finally, the day before her lesson, Lulu announced in exasperation that she was giving up and stomped off.
"Get back to the piano now," I ordered.
"You can't make me."
"Oh yes, I can."
Back at the piano, Lulu made me pay. She punched, thrashed and kicked. She grabbed the music score and tore it to shreds. I taped the score back together and encased it in a plastic shield so that it could never be destroyed again. Then I hauled Lulu's dollhouse to the car and told her I'd donate it to the Salvation Army piece by piece if she didn't have "The Little White Donkey" perfect by the next day. When Lulu said, "I thought you were going to the Salvation Army, why are you still here?" I threatened her with no lunch, no dinner, no Christmas or Hanukkah presents, no birthday parties for two, three, four years. When she still kept playing it wrong, I told her she was purposely working herself into a frenzy because she was secretly afraid she couldn't do it. I told her to stop being lazy, cowardly, self-indulgent and pathetic.
Jed took me aside. He told me to stop insulting Luluwhich I wasn't even doing, I was just motivating herand that he didn't think threatening Lulu was helpful. Also, he said, maybe Lulu really just couldn't do the techniqueperhaps she didn't have the coordination yethad I considered that possibility?
"You just don't believe in her," I accused.
"That's ridiculous," Jed said scornfully. "Of course I do."
"Sophia could play the piece when she was this age."
"But Lulu and Sophia are different people," Jed pointed out.
"Oh no, not this," I said, rolling my eyes. "Everyone is special in their special own way," I mimicked sarcastically. "Even losers are special in their own special way. Well don't worry, you don't have to lift a finger. I'm willing to put in as long as it takes, and I'm happy to be the one hated. And you can be the one they adore because you make them pancakes and take them to Yankees games."
I rolled up my sleeves and went back to Lulu. I used every weapon and tactic I could think of. We worked right through dinner into the night, and I wouldn't let Lulu get up, not for water, not even to go to the bathroom. The house became a war zone, and I lost my voice yelling, but still there seemed to be only negative progress, and even I began to have doubts.
Then, out of the blue, Lulu did it. Her hands suddenly came togetherher right and left hands each doing their own imperturbable thingjust like that.
Read More
In China, Not All Practice Tough Love
The Juggle: Are U.S. Parents Too Soft?
Lulu realized it the same time I did. I held my breath. She tried it tentatively again. Then she played it more confidently and faster, and still the rhythm held. A moment later, she was beaming.
"Mommy, lookit's easy!" After that, she wanted to play the piece over and over and wouldn't leave the piano. That night, she came to sleep in my bed, and we snuggled and hugged, cracking each other up. When she performed "The Little White Donkey" at a recital a few weeks later, parents came up to me and said, "What a perfect piece for Luluit's so spunky and so her."
Even Jed gave me credit for that one. Western parents worry a lot about their children's self-esteem. But as a parent, one of the worst things you can do for your child's self-esteem is to let them give up. On the flip side, there's nothing better for building confidence than learning you can do something you thought you couldn't.
There are all these new books out there portraying Asian mothers as scheming, callous, overdriven people indifferent to their kids' true interests. For their part, many Chinese secretly believe that they care more about their children and are willing to sacrifice much more for them than Westerners, who seem perfectly content to let their children turn out badly. I think it's a misunderstanding on both sides. All decent parents want to do what's best for their children. The Chinese just have a totally different idea of how to do that.
Western parents try to respect their children's individuality, encouraging them to pursue their true passions, supporting their choices, and providing positive reinforcement and a nurturing environment. By contrast, the Chinese believe that the best way to protect their children is by preparing them for the future, letting them see what they're capable of, and arming them with skills, work habits and inner confidence that no one can ever take away.
Amy Chua is a professor at Yale Law School and author of "Day of Empire" and "World on Fire: How Exporting Free Market Democracy Breeds Ethnic Hatred and Global Instability." This essay is excerpted from "Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother" by Amy Chua, to be published Tuesday by the Penguin Press, a member of Penguin Group (USA) Inc. Copyright © 2011 by Amy Chua
Why Chinese Mothers Are Superior
Can a regimen of no playdates, no TV, no computer games and hours of music practice create happy kids? And what happens when they fight back?
By AMY CHUA
A lot of people wonder how Chinese parents raise such stereotypically successful kids. They wonder what these parents do to produce so many math whizzes and music prodigies, what it's like inside the family, and whether they could do it too. Well, I can tell them, because I've done it. Here are some things my daughters, Sophia and Louisa, were never allowed to do:
View Full Image
Erin Patrice O'Brien for The Wall Street Journal
Amy Chua with her daughters, Louisa and Sophia, at their home in New Haven, Conn.
attend a sleepover
have a playdate
be in a school play
complain about not being in a school play
watch TV or play computer games
choose their own extracurricular activities
get any grade less than an A
not be the No. 1 student in every subject except gym and drama
play any instrument other than the piano or violin
not play the piano or violin.
I'm using the term "Chinese mother" loosely. I know some Korean, Indian, Jamaican, Irish and Ghanaian parents who qualify too. Conversely, I know some mothers of Chinese heritage, almost always born in the West, who are not Chinese mothers, by choice or otherwise. I'm also using the term "Western parents" loosely. Western parents come in all varieties.
View Full Image
Chua family
From Ms. Chua's album: 'Mean me with Lulu in hotel room... with score taped to TV!'
All the same, even when Western parents think they're being strict, they usually don't come close to being Chinese mothers. For example, my Western friends who consider themselves strict make their children practice their instruments 30 minutes every day. An hour at most. For a Chinese mother, the first hour is the easy part. It's hours two and three that get tough.
Despite our squeamishness about cultural stereotypes, there are tons of studies out there showing marked and quantifiable differences between Chinese and Westerners when it comes to parenting. In one study of 50 Western American mothers and 48 Chinese immigrant mothers, almost 70% of the Western mothers said either that "stressing academic success is not good for children" or that "parents need to foster the idea that learning is fun." By contrast, roughly 0% of the Chinese mothers felt the same way. Instead, the vast majority of the Chinese mothers said that they believe their children can be "the best" students, that "academic achievement reflects successful parenting," and that if children did not excel at school then there was "a problem" and parents "were not doing their job." Other studies indicate that compared to Western parents, Chinese parents spend approximately 10 times as long every day drilling academic activities with their children. By contrast, Western kids are more likely to participate in sports teams.
When it comes to parenting, the Chinese seem to produce children who display academic excellence, musical mastery and professional success - or so the stereotype goes. WSJ's Christina Tsuei speaks to two moms raised by Chinese immigrants who share what it was like growing up and how they hope to raise their children.
More Parenting Videos
Teaching Math to Spark Creative Thinking
Can Bilingualism Make Preschoolers Smarter?
What Chinese parents understand is that nothing is fun until you're good at it. To get good at anything you have to work, and children on their own never want to work, which is why it is crucial to override their preferences. This often requires fortitude on the part of the parents because the child will resist; things are always hardest at the beginning, which is where Western parents tend to give up. But if done properly, the Chinese strategy produces a virtuous circle. Tenacious practice, practice, practice is crucial for excellence; rote repetition is underrated in America. Once a child starts to excel at somethingwhether it's math, piano, pitching or ballethe or she gets praise, admiration and satisfaction. This builds confidence and makes the once not-fun activity fun. This in turn makes it easier for the parent to get the child to work even more.
Chinese parents can get away with things that Western parents can't. Once when I was youngmaybe more than oncewhen I was extremely disrespectful to my mother, my father angrily called me "garbage" in our native Hokkien dialect. It worked really well. I felt terrible and deeply ashamed of what I had done. But it didn't damage my self-esteem or anything like that. I knew exactly how highly he thought of me. I didn't actually think I was worthless or feel like a piece of garbage.
As an adult, I once did the same thing to Sophia, calling her garbage in English when she acted extremely disrespectfully toward me. When I mentioned that I had done this at a dinner party, I was immediately ostracized. One guest named Marcy got so upset she broke down in tears and had to leave early. My friend Susan, the host, tried to rehabilitate me with the remaining guests.
The fact is that Chinese parents can do things that would seem unimaginableeven legally actionableto Westerners. Chinese mothers can say to their daughters, "Hey fattylose some weight." By contrast, Western parents have to tiptoe around the issue, talking in terms of "health" and never ever mentioning the f-word, and their kids still end up in therapy for eating disorders and negative self-image. (I also once heard a Western father toast his adult daughter by calling her "beautiful and incredibly competent." She later told me that made her feel like garbage.)
Chinese parents can order their kids to get straight As. Western parents can only ask their kids to try their best. Chinese parents can say, "You're lazy. All your classmates are getting ahead of you." By contrast, Western parents have to struggle with their own conflicted feelings about achievement, and try to persuade themselves that they're not disappointed about how their kids turned out.
I've thought long and hard about how Chinese parents can get away with what they do. I think there are three big differences between the Chinese and Western parental mind-sets.
Chua family
Newborn Amy Chua in her mother's arms, a year after her parents arrived in the U.S.
Weigh in
Amy Chua will answer readers' questions Thursday on Review's new blog, Ideas Market.
Write to: IdeasMarket@....
First, I've noticed that Western parents are extremely anxious about their children's self-esteem. They worry about how their children will feel if they fail at something, and they constantly try to reassure their children about how good they are notwithstanding a mediocre performance on a test or at a recital. In other words, Western parents are concerned about their children's psyches. Chinese parents aren't. They assume strength, not fragility, and as a result they behave very differently.
For example, if a child comes home with an A-minus on a test, a Western parent will most likely praise the child. The Chinese mother will gasp in horror and ask what went wrong. If the child comes home with a B on the test, some Western parents will still praise the child. Other Western parents will sit their child down and express disapproval, but they will be careful not to make their child feel inadequate or insecure, and they will not call their child "stupid," "worthless" or "a disgrace." Privately, the Western parents may worry that their child does not test well or have aptitude in the subject or that there is something wrong with the curriculum and possibly the whole school. If the child's grades do not improve, they may eventually schedule a meeting with the school principal to challenge the way the subject is being taught or to call into question the teacher's credentials.
If a Chinese child gets a Bwhich would never happenthere would first be a screaming, hair-tearing explosion. The devastated Chinese mother would then get dozens, maybe hundreds of practice tests and work through them with her child for as long as it takes to get the grade up to an A.
Chinese parents demand perfect grades because they believe that their child can get them. If their child doesn't get them, the Chinese parent assumes it's because the child didn't work hard enough. That's why the solution to substandard performance is always to excoriate, punish and shame the child. The Chinese parent believes that their child will be strong enough to take the shaming and to improve from it. (And when Chinese kids do excel, there is plenty of ego-inflating parental praise lavished in the privacy of the home.)
View Full Image
Chua family
Sophia playing at Carnegie Hall in 2007.
Second, Chinese parents believe that their kids owe them everything. The reason for this is a little unclear, but it's probably a combination of Confucian filial piety and the fact that the parents have sacrificed and done so much for their children. (And it's true that Chinese mothers get in the trenches, putting in long grueling hours personally tutoring, training, interrogating and spying on their kids.) Anyway, the understanding is that Chinese children must spend their lives repaying their parents by obeying them and making them proud.
By contrast, I don't think most Westerners have the same view of children being permanently indebted to their parents. My husband, Jed, actually has the opposite view. "Children don't choose their parents," he once said to me. "They don't even choose to be born. It's parents who foist life on their kids, so it's the parents' responsibility to provide for them. Kids don't owe their parents anything. Their duty will be to their own kids." This strikes me as a terrible deal for the Western parent.
Third, Chinese parents believe that they know what is best for their children and therefore override all of their children's own desires and preferences. That's why Chinese daughters can't have boyfriends in high school and why Chinese kids can't go to sleepaway camp. It's also why no Chinese kid would ever dare say to their mother, "I got a part in the school play! I'm Villager Number Six. I'll have to stay after school for rehearsal every day from 3:00 to 7:00, and I'll also need a ride on weekends." God help any Chinese kid who tried that one.
Don't get me wrong: It's not that Chinese parents don't care about their children. Just the opposite. They would give up anything for their children. It's just an entirely different parenting model.
Here's a story in favor of coercion, Chinese-style. Lulu was about 7, still playing two instruments, and working on a piano piece called "The Little White Donkey" by the French composer Jacques Ibert. The piece is really cuteyou can just imagine a little donkey ambling along a country road with its masterbut it's also incredibly difficult for young players because the two hands have to keep schizophrenically different rhythms.
Lulu couldn't do it. We worked on it nonstop for a week, drilling each of her hands separately, over and over. But whenever we tried putting the hands together, one always morphed into the other, and everything fell apart. Finally, the day before her lesson, Lulu announced in exasperation that she was giving up and stomped off.
"Get back to the piano now," I ordered.
"You can't make me."
"Oh yes, I can."
Back at the piano, Lulu made me pay. She punched, thrashed and kicked. She grabbed the music score and tore it to shreds. I taped the score back together and encased it in a plastic shield so that it could never be destroyed again. Then I hauled Lulu's dollhouse to the car and told her I'd donate it to the Salvation Army piece by piece if she didn't have "The Little White Donkey" perfect by the next day. When Lulu said, "I thought you were going to the Salvation Army, why are you still here?" I threatened her with no lunch, no dinner, no Christmas or Hanukkah presents, no birthday parties for two, three, four years. When she still kept playing it wrong, I told her she was purposely working herself into a frenzy because she was secretly afraid she couldn't do it. I told her to stop being lazy, cowardly, self-indulgent and pathetic.
Jed took me aside. He told me to stop insulting Luluwhich I wasn't even doing, I was just motivating herand that he didn't think threatening Lulu was helpful. Also, he said, maybe Lulu really just couldn't do the techniqueperhaps she didn't have the coordination yethad I considered that possibility?
"You just don't believe in her," I accused.
"That's ridiculous," Jed said scornfully. "Of course I do."
"Sophia could play the piece when she was this age."
"But Lulu and Sophia are different people," Jed pointed out.
"Oh no, not this," I said, rolling my eyes. "Everyone is special in their special own way," I mimicked sarcastically. "Even losers are special in their own special way. Well don't worry, you don't have to lift a finger. I'm willing to put in as long as it takes, and I'm happy to be the one hated. And you can be the one they adore because you make them pancakes and take them to Yankees games."
I rolled up my sleeves and went back to Lulu. I used every weapon and tactic I could think of. We worked right through dinner into the night, and I wouldn't let Lulu get up, not for water, not even to go to the bathroom. The house became a war zone, and I lost my voice yelling, but still there seemed to be only negative progress, and even I began to have doubts.
Then, out of the blue, Lulu did it. Her hands suddenly came togetherher right and left hands each doing their own imperturbable thingjust like that.
Read More
In China, Not All Practice Tough Love
The Juggle: Are U.S. Parents Too Soft?
Lulu realized it the same time I did. I held my breath. She tried it tentatively again. Then she played it more confidently and faster, and still the rhythm held. A moment later, she was beaming.
"Mommy, lookit's easy!" After that, she wanted to play the piece over and over and wouldn't leave the piano. That night, she came to sleep in my bed, and we snuggled and hugged, cracking each other up. When she performed "The Little White Donkey" at a recital a few weeks later, parents came up to me and said, "What a perfect piece for Luluit's so spunky and so her."
Even Jed gave me credit for that one. Western parents worry a lot about their children's self-esteem. But as a parent, one of the worst things you can do for your child's self-esteem is to let them give up. On the flip side, there's nothing better for building confidence than learning you can do something you thought you couldn't.
There are all these new books out there portraying Asian mothers as scheming, callous, overdriven people indifferent to their kids' true interests. For their part, many Chinese secretly believe that they care more about their children and are willing to sacrifice much more for them than Westerners, who seem perfectly content to let their children turn out badly. I think it's a misunderstanding on both sides. All decent parents want to do what's best for their children. The Chinese just have a totally different idea of how to do that.
Western parents try to respect their children's individuality, encouraging them to pursue their true passions, supporting their choices, and providing positive reinforcement and a nurturing environment. By contrast, the Chinese believe that the best way to protect their children is by preparing them for the future, letting them see what they're capable of, and arming them with skills, work habits and inner confidence that no one can ever take away.
Amy Chua is a professor at Yale Law School and author of "Day of Empire" and "World on Fire: How Exporting Free Market Democracy Breeds Ethnic Hatred and Global Instability." This essay is excerpted from "Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother" by Amy Chua, to be published Tuesday by the Penguin Press, a member of Penguin Group (USA) Inc. Copyright © 2011 by Amy Chua
Schuyler
In reading it one of the things that struck me was how different my aims and
awareness are to Amy Chua. She is all about her children's future, all about
ensuring that they have some kind of place in a highly competitive world. She
mentions in the story about Lulu learning The Little White Donkey that parents
came up to her and praised the match of Lulu to the piece. Even though it didn't
seem to be part of her aim, this melding of personality to piece as it was a
piece that her not very individual older daughter Sophia had mastered at the
same age. So there is something very big about her own sense of self as a parent
involved in her daughter's success.
But mainly what struck me was that I have no sense of Simon's or Linnaea's
future. I don't know what they will do at any age, not even really what they'll
be doing many days from now. I know far more that they will be who they are,
that they will be happy and comfortable and complete as who they are. I'm
guessing that they won't strive in the same way that Amy Chua's daughters will
strive. They won't be seeking to crush the competition under their heels, they
won't be working to achieve the next medal or stamp of approval or whatever it
is that lets them feel good and skilled enough to cuddle up with their mom and
giggle. I'm guessing that they will do the things that they want to do and do
the things that interest them without looking so much for external rewards,
because they know how to feel good without those rewards already.
Amy Chua believes that what she is doing will prepare her children to do well in
the future, to excel against any odds, to know they are capable of surmounting
any challenge that they encounter. Linnaea, who read the article with me, thinks
they won't be the happiest of adults. I think she might be right, they may even
have trouble knowing what happiness is, thinking that it is only possible when
they've achieved whatever goal they feel they have to achieve in order to be
happy. I don't know that there is anything I can do to prepare my children to do
well in the future, maybe that is the difference. I have no sense that the
future will be the same as the now, not that I think the end is nigh or that the
world will be radically different in 10 years than it is now. But I don't know
what they will want to do with their lives when they aren't so overlapping with
my life. The only skill I feel will really help them is the ability to explore
the world in ways that are meaningful to them. It isn't to perfectly execute a
piano piece or to solve a math equation, it isn't to bow to the superior
pressure of an older person, it isn't to recognise that being called garbage
isn't a personal slight. Better that they know that the ranting of someone else
is a moment of difficulty for the other person rather than a failure on their
part, or rather than just a failure on their part.
I found it a disturbing article in it's calm assurance that the children of
Chinese Mothers never suffer at the manipulative tactics they've been forced to
endure.
Schuyler
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
awareness are to Amy Chua. She is all about her children's future, all about
ensuring that they have some kind of place in a highly competitive world. She
mentions in the story about Lulu learning The Little White Donkey that parents
came up to her and praised the match of Lulu to the piece. Even though it didn't
seem to be part of her aim, this melding of personality to piece as it was a
piece that her not very individual older daughter Sophia had mastered at the
same age. So there is something very big about her own sense of self as a parent
involved in her daughter's success.
But mainly what struck me was that I have no sense of Simon's or Linnaea's
future. I don't know what they will do at any age, not even really what they'll
be doing many days from now. I know far more that they will be who they are,
that they will be happy and comfortable and complete as who they are. I'm
guessing that they won't strive in the same way that Amy Chua's daughters will
strive. They won't be seeking to crush the competition under their heels, they
won't be working to achieve the next medal or stamp of approval or whatever it
is that lets them feel good and skilled enough to cuddle up with their mom and
giggle. I'm guessing that they will do the things that they want to do and do
the things that interest them without looking so much for external rewards,
because they know how to feel good without those rewards already.
Amy Chua believes that what she is doing will prepare her children to do well in
the future, to excel against any odds, to know they are capable of surmounting
any challenge that they encounter. Linnaea, who read the article with me, thinks
they won't be the happiest of adults. I think she might be right, they may even
have trouble knowing what happiness is, thinking that it is only possible when
they've achieved whatever goal they feel they have to achieve in order to be
happy. I don't know that there is anything I can do to prepare my children to do
well in the future, maybe that is the difference. I have no sense that the
future will be the same as the now, not that I think the end is nigh or that the
world will be radically different in 10 years than it is now. But I don't know
what they will want to do with their lives when they aren't so overlapping with
my life. The only skill I feel will really help them is the ability to explore
the world in ways that are meaningful to them. It isn't to perfectly execute a
piano piece or to solve a math equation, it isn't to bow to the superior
pressure of an older person, it isn't to recognise that being called garbage
isn't a personal slight. Better that they know that the ranting of someone else
is a moment of difficulty for the other person rather than a failure on their
part, or rather than just a failure on their part.
I found it a disturbing article in it's calm assurance that the children of
Chinese Mothers never suffer at the manipulative tactics they've been forced to
endure.
Schuyler
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Bob Collier
--- In [email protected], Schuyler <s.waynforth@...> wrote:
Bob
>I'm reminded of the exclusive all-girls sk**l in London that my daughter went to for three years before we came to Australia. It had mostly Asian students and all of their parents that I knew were like that - totally obsessed with academic excellence to the exclusion of anything that might distract from it. Two of my daughter's friends cracked up from being constantly hectored by their parents to get A's in everything and went totally off the rails - binge drinking, drugs, promiscuity, exam results down the tubes - so I know there were at least some casualties.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I found it a disturbing article in it's calm assurance that the children of
> Chinese Mothers never suffer at the manipulative tactics they've been forced to
> endure.
>
>
Bob
[email protected]
<Amy Chua believes that what she is doing will prepare her children to do
well in
the future, to excel against any odds, to know they are capable of
surmounting
any challenge that they encounter. Linnaea, who read the article with me,
thinks
they won't be the happiest of adults. I think she might be right, they may
even
have trouble knowing what happiness is, thinking that it is only possible
when
they've achieved whatever goal they feel they have to achieve in order to
be
happy. >
Culturally, I guess it's not surprising: we are less than a century
distant from widespread foot-binding for the good of young girls' futures. Those
with bound feet married better = success by that criterion (as opposed to
the criterion of being able to walk easily), and the possibility that the
child who became an adult would see it as the best route to success for her
daughter.
So sad.
Jude
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
well in
the future, to excel against any odds, to know they are capable of
surmounting
any challenge that they encounter. Linnaea, who read the article with me,
thinks
they won't be the happiest of adults. I think she might be right, they may
even
have trouble knowing what happiness is, thinking that it is only possible
when
they've achieved whatever goal they feel they have to achieve in order to
be
happy. >
Culturally, I guess it's not surprising: we are less than a century
distant from widespread foot-binding for the good of young girls' futures. Those
with bound feet married better = success by that criterion (as opposed to
the criterion of being able to walk easily), and the possibility that the
child who became an adult would see it as the best route to success for her
daughter.
So sad.
Jude
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
The other other side is from the point of view of a Chinese child who
hasn't graduated into the lofty realm of power wielder over a child.
I spent New Years Eve with a Taiwanese young woman who was raised
almost that way. What saved her, she said, is that she was born
premature and underweight. So any physical activity she did was
encouraged. She was able to participate in dance and sports teams when
most other kids were spending 7AM to 9PM at school. She was able to
stop at 3PM to do sports. For most kids but academics is encouraged.
Unless parents give up.
But, like most Chinese "young" people (she's 27) she needs to call
home every night. She appreciates the independence that Americans
encourage.
Joyce
hasn't graduated into the lofty realm of power wielder over a child.
I spent New Years Eve with a Taiwanese young woman who was raised
almost that way. What saved her, she said, is that she was born
premature and underweight. So any physical activity she did was
encouraged. She was able to participate in dance and sports teams when
most other kids were spending 7AM to 9PM at school. She was able to
stop at 3PM to do sports. For most kids but academics is encouraged.
Unless parents give up.
But, like most Chinese "young" people (she's 27) she needs to call
home every night. She appreciates the independence that Americans
encourage.
Joyce
Ed Wendell
* Linnaea, who read the article with me, thinks they won't be the happiest of adults. I think she might be right, they may
even have trouble knowing what happiness is, thinking that it is only possible when they've achieved whatever goal they feel they have to achieve in order to be happy. *
These children sound like the only way they are happy is if they have the approval of others. They will not know how to think creatively nor know how to think for themselves.
There have to be children that rebel in a big way and children that just simply cannot do it no matter how much they practice or how hard they try to play the piano and violin or strive to get straight A's.
What about social skills when they are adults? Can they make it in the corporate world (I assume that is what they are aiming for - what they consider success - either corporate world or medical) if they have no people skills? Maybe that is why some doctors have no "bedside manners" are curt and rude to their patients ???
This mother thumbs her nose at "Western mothers" as being weak willed and not putting enough into their children???
What would these people use in life or the tools of their trade if there were not creative inventors ? Someone long ago invented the violin and piano ;) but what about electricity, computers, automobiles, stoves, blow-dryers, clothing/fabrics, bridges, roads, ??? What about their teachers? They obviously take lessons. OH what about the composers - very creative people.
I guess you need a lot of doctors - especially psychiatrists - in their world !
I read she is a Yale Law professor and author of a few books so I googled her and read some of her "history" - WOW - it really gave perspective to her roots and how she could be this way with her children and so snooty towards "Western parents". She was born in the Philippines to Chinese parents. The Chinese are a minority group in the Philippines but are the wealthiest group with the indigenous people being the poor working class / servants. The wealthy Chinese see the indigenous group as lazy and stupid. Her Aunt treated her servants so poorly that they slept on dirt floors, she belittled them, etc. to the point that her chauffer slit her throat.
Zachariah is 16 and he has decided to take violin lessons. We have his great, great grandfather's violin. We just got a call from the repair shop that it is refurbished and ready to play so he will begin lessons this week. He made this decision all on his own at 16. He came up to us about 3 weeks ago with the violin in hand and said "I'd like to take violin lessons if possible." I found a local shop that sells, leases, and repairs. Took the violin in for it to be looked at and was reassured that the investment in repairing it was worth the money vs. leasing or buying new. He may take a few lessons and that is it or he may go further - who knows???
We've offered violin lessons before - as we had the violin. We've offered guitar lessons too as we have a guitar. He always said he was not interested. However he did take HapKiDo for 5 years until he was within two months of testing for his black belt. He wanted to quit, so he quit. He has taken fencing lessons; played basketball and volleyball; taken Parkour at a gymnastics facility, horse back riding lessons for several years (still does) played Magic the Gathering off and on for 6-7 years (currently playing). He had a job at the local pet shop for a year working one afternoon/evening a week - age 14.5 - 15.5 then got laid off due to "economic times". He has also participated in a host of classes such as drawing, pottery, photography, stop motion film, Japanese language, science, - too many to remember. The classes are offered as a co-op through our local homeschool group. Mostly it is an opportunity to get together with other people and do something fun. He has done various volunteer work at the local food pantry, planted trees in parks for Arbor Day and helped build a house for Habitat for Humanity as well as water the horses at the stable one summer. OH and he took a couple of classes on making chainmail - the list could go on and on. He has figured out with a bit of help from his dad how to make wooden swords - replicas of real swords he researches as well as ones he designs. He did this about 3-4 years ago and just this week started again. And last night I showed him how to tell if the macaroni noodles are done :)
Anyway, he has had a very wide range of experiences in life as well as TV, movies, films, games, books, etc. and he is still choosing to expand his horizons. Not because someone told him to, nor to please someone else, but because he chooses to for his own self.
Lisa W.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
even have trouble knowing what happiness is, thinking that it is only possible when they've achieved whatever goal they feel they have to achieve in order to be happy. *
These children sound like the only way they are happy is if they have the approval of others. They will not know how to think creatively nor know how to think for themselves.
There have to be children that rebel in a big way and children that just simply cannot do it no matter how much they practice or how hard they try to play the piano and violin or strive to get straight A's.
What about social skills when they are adults? Can they make it in the corporate world (I assume that is what they are aiming for - what they consider success - either corporate world or medical) if they have no people skills? Maybe that is why some doctors have no "bedside manners" are curt and rude to their patients ???
This mother thumbs her nose at "Western mothers" as being weak willed and not putting enough into their children???
What would these people use in life or the tools of their trade if there were not creative inventors ? Someone long ago invented the violin and piano ;) but what about electricity, computers, automobiles, stoves, blow-dryers, clothing/fabrics, bridges, roads, ??? What about their teachers? They obviously take lessons. OH what about the composers - very creative people.
I guess you need a lot of doctors - especially psychiatrists - in their world !
I read she is a Yale Law professor and author of a few books so I googled her and read some of her "history" - WOW - it really gave perspective to her roots and how she could be this way with her children and so snooty towards "Western parents". She was born in the Philippines to Chinese parents. The Chinese are a minority group in the Philippines but are the wealthiest group with the indigenous people being the poor working class / servants. The wealthy Chinese see the indigenous group as lazy and stupid. Her Aunt treated her servants so poorly that they slept on dirt floors, she belittled them, etc. to the point that her chauffer slit her throat.
Zachariah is 16 and he has decided to take violin lessons. We have his great, great grandfather's violin. We just got a call from the repair shop that it is refurbished and ready to play so he will begin lessons this week. He made this decision all on his own at 16. He came up to us about 3 weeks ago with the violin in hand and said "I'd like to take violin lessons if possible." I found a local shop that sells, leases, and repairs. Took the violin in for it to be looked at and was reassured that the investment in repairing it was worth the money vs. leasing or buying new. He may take a few lessons and that is it or he may go further - who knows???
We've offered violin lessons before - as we had the violin. We've offered guitar lessons too as we have a guitar. He always said he was not interested. However he did take HapKiDo for 5 years until he was within two months of testing for his black belt. He wanted to quit, so he quit. He has taken fencing lessons; played basketball and volleyball; taken Parkour at a gymnastics facility, horse back riding lessons for several years (still does) played Magic the Gathering off and on for 6-7 years (currently playing). He had a job at the local pet shop for a year working one afternoon/evening a week - age 14.5 - 15.5 then got laid off due to "economic times". He has also participated in a host of classes such as drawing, pottery, photography, stop motion film, Japanese language, science, - too many to remember. The classes are offered as a co-op through our local homeschool group. Mostly it is an opportunity to get together with other people and do something fun. He has done various volunteer work at the local food pantry, planted trees in parks for Arbor Day and helped build a house for Habitat for Humanity as well as water the horses at the stable one summer. OH and he took a couple of classes on making chainmail - the list could go on and on. He has figured out with a bit of help from his dad how to make wooden swords - replicas of real swords he researches as well as ones he designs. He did this about 3-4 years ago and just this week started again. And last night I showed him how to tell if the macaroni noodles are done :)
Anyway, he has had a very wide range of experiences in life as well as TV, movies, films, games, books, etc. and he is still choosing to expand his horizons. Not because someone told him to, nor to please someone else, but because he chooses to for his own self.
Lisa W.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
miriam
Thank you so much for posting this article by Amy Chuan, although it has made my chest feel tight with grief and my eyes burn with tears to read how she treats her own children.
Some years ago I had a beautiful woman from an African country as a student in the college composition class that I taught. She wrote an essay on the clitorectomy she was forced to undergo as a young child. I know it is culturally accepted in many countries to maim female children in this way so that they will make "successful" wives. I'm sure it works. But it doesn't make it right or healthy and probably destroys pleasure in marriage for both husband and wife who never even conceive what lovemaking can be when it is mutually enjoyed.
Amy Chuan's idea of forcing success down her children's throats for their own good is not much different in my view than an enforced clitorectomy. Her concept of success is entirely about pecuniary and social valuations it has nothing to do with the inner life of her children. Obedience and rote learning can only achieve so much. If what the writer says is true about most Chinese American families, I don't think I will ever be able to look at one of these paragons of academic perfection again without a deep sense of pity and visceral distrust in their ability to think for themselves or make judgments not centered on their own "success" or fear of humiliation.
I am more than ever glad that I discovered unschooling and I feel more than ever ashamed of the few times I did say mean things to my own child to shame her when I was still caught up in the idea that the only way one can succeed is to do well in school.
Some years ago I had a beautiful woman from an African country as a student in the college composition class that I taught. She wrote an essay on the clitorectomy she was forced to undergo as a young child. I know it is culturally accepted in many countries to maim female children in this way so that they will make "successful" wives. I'm sure it works. But it doesn't make it right or healthy and probably destroys pleasure in marriage for both husband and wife who never even conceive what lovemaking can be when it is mutually enjoyed.
Amy Chuan's idea of forcing success down her children's throats for their own good is not much different in my view than an enforced clitorectomy. Her concept of success is entirely about pecuniary and social valuations it has nothing to do with the inner life of her children. Obedience and rote learning can only achieve so much. If what the writer says is true about most Chinese American families, I don't think I will ever be able to look at one of these paragons of academic perfection again without a deep sense of pity and visceral distrust in their ability to think for themselves or make judgments not centered on their own "success" or fear of humiliation.
I am more than ever glad that I discovered unschooling and I feel more than ever ashamed of the few times I did say mean things to my own child to shame her when I was still caught up in the idea that the only way one can succeed is to do well in school.
k
So I suppose the word's out that my aim has nothing to do with making my
mothering a superior thing. :) I actually thought of The Sound of Music when
I saw that phrase "why Chinese Mothers are Superior" .. thinking back to the
Mothers Superior in the convent that Maria hailed from.
Brian and I watched a documentary on North Korea on Netflix not so long ago.
Hugely different perspective on how to survive. To me, it was absolutely
abhorrent that a system of domination takes over the minds of soooo many
people. The desperation and starvation! Talk about manipulation. Scarcity as
a way to interact with millions of people. And of course the way that pans
out is that the people say it as a good way to make a good life, with lots
of "ifs" all over the place.
I don't think that it's essentially very different for lots of emigrants,
whose culture is heavily influenced by the desperate need to survive. It
seems to me that the fear of NOT surviving figures heavily into Amy Chua's
article. The belief in negative conditioning is very strong in most of
American culture too even though it has been influenced by other things such
as the 1960s flower children era, ironically also an expression of Eastern
influence on the West.
Karl's life is pretty full of freedom, laughter, music and what might seem
from the outside like lots of frivolity. I like the way his life is not so
dependent on my direct input for ideas. No need to feed him with thoughts to
think and things to learn. What I do is more along the lines of sharing what
I'm into which sometimes fits what he's doing and sometimes doesn't fit as
much as what he's doing goes with my wider interests, me having had a lot
more years to accumulate interests.
I like the way neither of our lives are on hold in order to perfect somebody
else's idea of whatever it is they think a child should know.
~Katherine
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
mothering a superior thing. :) I actually thought of The Sound of Music when
I saw that phrase "why Chinese Mothers are Superior" .. thinking back to the
Mothers Superior in the convent that Maria hailed from.
Brian and I watched a documentary on North Korea on Netflix not so long ago.
Hugely different perspective on how to survive. To me, it was absolutely
abhorrent that a system of domination takes over the minds of soooo many
people. The desperation and starvation! Talk about manipulation. Scarcity as
a way to interact with millions of people. And of course the way that pans
out is that the people say it as a good way to make a good life, with lots
of "ifs" all over the place.
I don't think that it's essentially very different for lots of emigrants,
whose culture is heavily influenced by the desperate need to survive. It
seems to me that the fear of NOT surviving figures heavily into Amy Chua's
article. The belief in negative conditioning is very strong in most of
American culture too even though it has been influenced by other things such
as the 1960s flower children era, ironically also an expression of Eastern
influence on the West.
Karl's life is pretty full of freedom, laughter, music and what might seem
from the outside like lots of frivolity. I like the way his life is not so
dependent on my direct input for ideas. No need to feed him with thoughts to
think and things to learn. What I do is more along the lines of sharing what
I'm into which sometimes fits what he's doing and sometimes doesn't fit as
much as what he's doing goes with my wider interests, me having had a lot
more years to accumulate interests.
I like the way neither of our lives are on hold in order to perfect somebody
else's idea of whatever it is they think a child should know.
~Katherine
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
k
Another very different perspective about what it takes to get into college
came up on an article I saw linked on my Facebook news feed:
http://www.cnn.com/2010/OPINION/12/29/christakis.play.children.learning/index.html
Here's an excerpt:
*(CNN)* -- Every day where we work, we see our young students struggling
with the transition from home to school. They're all wonderful kids, but
some can't share easily or listen in a group.
Some have impulse control problems and have trouble keeping their hands to
themselves; others don't always see that actions have consequences; a few
suffer terribly from separation anxiety.
We're not talking about preschool children. These are Harvard undergraduate
students whom we teach and advise. They all know how to work, but some of
them haven't learned how to play.
came up on an article I saw linked on my Facebook news feed:
http://www.cnn.com/2010/OPINION/12/29/christakis.play.children.learning/index.html
Here's an excerpt:
*(CNN)* -- Every day where we work, we see our young students struggling
with the transition from home to school. They're all wonderful kids, but
some can't share easily or listen in a group.
Some have impulse control problems and have trouble keeping their hands to
themselves; others don't always see that actions have consequences; a few
suffer terribly from separation anxiety.
We're not talking about preschool children. These are Harvard undergraduate
students whom we teach and advise. They all know how to work, but some of
them haven't learned how to play.
On Sat, Jan 8, 2011 at 3:16 PM, MotherCrone <tuathadedans@...> wrote:
> this article was forwarded to me .... if read as a what not to do to raise
> well rounded happy and successful children it is use full :)... thought I
> would share...
>
>
>
> Why Chinese Mothers Are Superior
> Can a regimen of no playdates, no TV, no computer games and hours of music
> practice create happy kids? And what happens when they fight back?
>
> By AMY CHUA
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Claire
I actually found the article pretty funny. I mean of course the parenting described is appalling, but I thought that was the whole point - that through this deadpan sort of humour she is aiming a sharp critique at both tyrannical 'Chinese' parents, and conflicted, politically-correct 'Western' parents. For example:
And this:
I thought that was pretty funny!
I don't mean to belittle the damage that this kind of parenting does, but I certainly didn't read the article as a ringing endorsement for thrashing another 'A' out of your poor long-suffering kids. I see critique through humour as effective because it doesn't feel like I'm being dictated to. The moment we start dreaming up the 'Rules of Unschooling' is the moment when unschooling starts to slip from our grasp (general comment only, not saying anyone has done this).
Claire
>>>(And it's true that Chinese mothers get in the trenches, puttingin long grueling hours personally tutoring, training, interrogating and spying on their kids.) >>>>>
And this:
>>>Chinese mothers can say to their daughters,"Hey fattylose some weight." By contrast, Western parents have to tiptoe around the issue, talking in terms of "health" and never ever mentioning the f-word >>>>
I thought that was pretty funny!
I don't mean to belittle the damage that this kind of parenting does, but I certainly didn't read the article as a ringing endorsement for thrashing another 'A' out of your poor long-suffering kids. I see critique through humour as effective because it doesn't feel like I'm being dictated to. The moment we start dreaming up the 'Rules of Unschooling' is the moment when unschooling starts to slip from our grasp (general comment only, not saying anyone has done this).
Claire
k
I guess it would have been (maybe) funny if it weren't so close to the
truth. I didn't see the humor because the descriptions of how some
mothers think is so often the actual case.
All kidding aside. It wasn't funny to me.
~Katherine
truth. I didn't see the humor because the descriptions of how some
mothers think is so often the actual case.
All kidding aside. It wasn't funny to me.
~Katherine
On 1/9/11, Claire <claire.horsley08@...> wrote:
> I actually found the article pretty funny. I mean of course the parenting
> described is appalling, but I thought that was the whole point - that
> through this deadpan sort of humour she is aiming a sharp critique at both
> tyrannical 'Chinese' parents, and conflicted, politically-correct 'Western'
> parents. For example:
>
>>>>(And it's true that Chinese mothers get in the trenches, putting
> in long grueling hours personally tutoring, training, interrogating and
> spying on their kids.) >>>>>
>
> And this:
>
>>>>Chinese mothers can say to their daughters,
> "Hey fatty—lose some weight." By contrast, Western parents have to tiptoe
> around the issue, talking in terms of "health" and never ever mentioning the
> f-word >>>>
>
> I thought that was pretty funny!
>
> I don't mean to belittle the damage that this kind of parenting does, but I
> certainly didn't read the article as a ringing endorsement for thrashing
> another 'A' out of your poor long-suffering kids. I see critique through
> humour as effective because it doesn't feel like I'm being dictated to. The
> moment we start dreaming up the 'Rules of Unschooling' is the moment when
> unschooling starts to slip from our grasp (general comment only, not saying
> anyone has done this).
>
> Claire
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
>>>Chinese mothers can say to their daughters,"Hey fatty—lose some weight." By contrast, Western parents have to tiptoe around
the issue, talking in terms of "health" and never ever mentioning the f-word
>>>>I thought that was pretty funny!
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Would you find it funny if that was written from the perspective of a
man towards his wife???
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
k
>>>Chinese mothers can say to their daughters, "Hey fatty—lose some weight." By contrast, Western parents have to tiptoe around the issue, talking in terms of "health" and never ever mentioning the f-word<<<I got the hyperbole the first time around. Said as though it were an
assumption that everyone shares. Except I don't. For me it was an
example of a comedy FAIL.
~Katherine
dola dasgupta-banerji
Actually there is a a lot of cultural, social and historical reasons for
this.
1. Most Asians moms 'did' not have the freedom to decide for themselves till
very recently.
2. So they want their daughters to live a better freer life, which they feel
only good grades, university education and job can get.
3. From agrarian economy to industrialisation the transition has been too
fast for words. The charm of the urban life is very profund in most Asians
since the rural life that their ancestors had was pathetic and continues to
be.
4. success is measured in terms of pay packet and material stuff. Result of
a lot deprivation, social injustice and colonial governance.
5. the patterns are stronger with migrants simply for all the above reasons.
Dola
On Sun, Jan 9, 2011 at 5:54 PM, Bob Collier <
bobcollier@...> wrote:
this.
1. Most Asians moms 'did' not have the freedom to decide for themselves till
very recently.
2. So they want their daughters to live a better freer life, which they feel
only good grades, university education and job can get.
3. From agrarian economy to industrialisation the transition has been too
fast for words. The charm of the urban life is very profund in most Asians
since the rural life that their ancestors had was pathetic and continues to
be.
4. success is measured in terms of pay packet and material stuff. Result of
a lot deprivation, social injustice and colonial governance.
5. the patterns are stronger with migrants simply for all the above reasons.
Dola
On Sun, Jan 9, 2011 at 5:54 PM, Bob Collier <
bobcollier@...> wrote:
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> --- In [email protected] <AlwaysLearning%40yahoogroups.com>,
> Schuyler <s.waynforth@...> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I found it a disturbing article in it's calm assurance that the children
> of
> > Chinese Mothers never suffer at the manipulative tactics they've been
> forced to
> > endure.
> >
> >
>
> I'm reminded of the exclusive all-girls sk**l in London that my daughter
> went to for three years before we came to Australia. It had mostly Asian
> students and all of their parents that I knew were like that - totally
> obsessed with academic excellence to the exclusion of anything that might
> distract from it. Two of my daughter's friends cracked up from being
> constantly hectored by their parents to get A's in everything and went
> totally off the rails - binge drinking, drugs, promiscuity, exam results
> down the tubes - so I know there were at least some casualties.
>
> Bob
>
>
>
Bob Collier
--- In [email protected], "miriam" <miriyum1@...> wrote:
Strange but true.
Happy children love learning.
However, we did need to actively safeguard our daughter's happiness throughout her sk**l years and that was often hard work and not always successful, whereas her ten years younger brother who has been at home with me for the past eight years is just happy and that's it. Very relaxing and a far more enjoyable experience all round. :-)
Bob
>My daughter did very well at sk**l and got her A's because her happiness was more important to her parents than her exam results.
>
> I am more than ever glad that I discovered unschooling and I feel more than ever ashamed of the few times I did say mean things to my own child to shame her when I was still caught up in the idea that the only way one can succeed is to do well in school.
>
Strange but true.
Happy children love learning.
However, we did need to actively safeguard our daughter's happiness throughout her sk**l years and that was often hard work and not always successful, whereas her ten years younger brother who has been at home with me for the past eight years is just happy and that's it. Very relaxing and a far more enjoyable experience all round. :-)
Bob
Bob Collier
--- In [email protected], dola dasgupta-banerji <doladg@...> wrote:
Bob
>That makes sense. Thanks. I can see how that would relate to those parents I knew.
> Actually there is a a lot of cultural, social and historical reasons for
> this.
>
> 1. Most Asians moms 'did' not have the freedom to decide for themselves till
> very recently.
>
> 2. So they want their daughters to live a better freer life, which they feel
> only good grades, university education and job can get.
>
> 3. From agrarian economy to industrialisation the transition has been too
> fast for words. The charm of the urban life is very profund in most Asians
> since the rural life that their ancestors had was pathetic and continues to
> be.
>
> 4. success is measured in terms of pay packet and material stuff. Result of
> a lot deprivation, social injustice and colonial governance.
>
> 5. the patterns are stronger with migrants simply for all the above reasons.
>
> Dola
>
>
Bob
Bob Collier
--- In [email protected], "Bob Collier" <bobcollier@...> wrote:
Bob
>Oops, that was poorly worded. Hopefully my intended meaning was clear, but yes she did actually have to do some studying as well.
>
>>
>
>
> My daughter did very well at sk**l and got her A's because her happiness was more important to her parents than her exam results.
>
>
Bob
Sandra Dodd
-=-These children sound like the only way they are happy is if they have the approval of others.-=-
I was that way most of my life. I still am to some extent. I think it's part of the life of any mammal to act within the bounds of what other mammals will accept or support. It's generally part of their reproductive life and safety, anyway, isn't it?
-=-What about social skills when they are adults? Can they make it in the corporate world (I assume that is what they are aiming for - what they consider success - either corporate world or medical) if they have no people skills? Maybe that is why some doctors have no "bedside manners" are curt and rude to their patients ???-=-
Much of the corporate world involves doing things to death regardless of the feelings of those outside the project/business/company, though, I think.
If modern culture cared more about happiness than about money, perhaps there would be fewer doctors who were only doctors for the money or prestige or from parental pressure to "be a doctor." Too many people want "to be a doctor" but don't also want to help other people have healthier lives. Some seem to want to go through the motions of medical school and pass the tests, and then go through the motions of "practicing medicine" and get the nice car and big house.
-=-I guess you need a lot of doctors - especially psychiatrists - in their world !-=-
Not if they accept it all as normal they won't.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I was that way most of my life. I still am to some extent. I think it's part of the life of any mammal to act within the bounds of what other mammals will accept or support. It's generally part of their reproductive life and safety, anyway, isn't it?
-=-What about social skills when they are adults? Can they make it in the corporate world (I assume that is what they are aiming for - what they consider success - either corporate world or medical) if they have no people skills? Maybe that is why some doctors have no "bedside manners" are curt and rude to their patients ???-=-
Much of the corporate world involves doing things to death regardless of the feelings of those outside the project/business/company, though, I think.
If modern culture cared more about happiness than about money, perhaps there would be fewer doctors who were only doctors for the money or prestige or from parental pressure to "be a doctor." Too many people want "to be a doctor" but don't also want to help other people have healthier lives. Some seem to want to go through the motions of medical school and pass the tests, and then go through the motions of "practicing medicine" and get the nice car and big house.
-=-I guess you need a lot of doctors - especially psychiatrists - in their world !-=-
Not if they accept it all as normal they won't.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ed Wendell
The part I don't understand is why violin and piano and absolutely no other instrument? I'd think any instrument would accompolish what they are trying to instill. Anyone know why only those two instruments?
Because you can begin young and it's "classy/classical" "higher society"?
Lisa W.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Because you can begin young and it's "classy/classical" "higher society"?
Lisa W.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-The part I don't understand is why violin and piano and absolutely no other instrument? I'd think any instrument would accompolish what they are trying to instill. Anyone know why only those two instruments?
-=-Because you can begin young and it's "classy/classical" "higher society"? -=-
The classicalist of the classicals. :-)
Japanese, too. Americans, too.
Violin is smallish and leads to a whole section.
Piano is good for learning music theory, because the keys are set up to look like the sounds they make (meaning... in my awkwardish attempt to explain... the C looks like the other C's, and up is clearly up, unlike other instruments).
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-=-Because you can begin young and it's "classy/classical" "higher society"? -=-
The classicalist of the classicals. :-)
Japanese, too. Americans, too.
Violin is smallish and leads to a whole section.
Piano is good for learning music theory, because the keys are set up to look like the sounds they make (meaning... in my awkwardish attempt to explain... the C looks like the other C's, and up is clearly up, unlike other instruments).
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jan 10, 2011, at 9:16 AM, Ed Wendell wrote:
(Westernized) Asian woman. (There's more at the blog) -- Joyce
http://www.asian-central.com/stuffasianpeoplelike/2008/03/17/37-piano-violin/
The piano is considered by asians as the core instrument that one
learns in order to first understand the essentials of music.Why? In
order to successfully know how to play piano, asians must know how to
read both the treble and bass clefs. That means understanding the
intricacies of a whole other language at the ripe age of 3, which in
turn, allows most asian children to comprehend how to efficiently use
their left and right brain hemispheres at an earlier age. Do you ever
wonder why asian children are so gifted mathematically and spatially?
That’s your answer. Asians will also enroll their children in musical
classes to serve the community.
For Asian-Christian families, the ability to play piano means that the
child can have his or her turn at ‘performing” during church
services. That way, Mrs. Chung can brag (more on bragging below) to
everyone that it’s her Jenny out there playing ‘”˜Praise My
Soul’ like an angel.” The accolades don’t end in the
congregation hall. That’s why pianos are, most importantly,
expensive. To have one in the living room is a subtle (in an asian
sense) way of telling everyone that the Asians are keeping up with the
‘Joneses” (or the Wongs).
In asian circles, piano is the choice instrument, followed very
closely by the violin. The violin is often a preference because it’s
small and portable, great for young children. Asian kids start private
music lessons as kindergarteners (before they start learning how to
use chopsticks, but after they start their introductory calculus
lessons), or even while in pre-school (I had my first piano lesson
just before my 4th birthday)! The sound it makes is very soft and
smooth when playing strictly classical music (a proper Asian kid does
NOT fiddle). The violin, like piano, is also more likely to be a
‘star” instrument, which will more times than none draw more
attention to the child’s parents.
To Conservative Asians, most other instruments are a no-no. Especially
brass instruments and instruments associated with bands and more
popular music. To Asian parents, instruments such as trombones,
saxophones, trumpets, percussive drums, guitar (especially ELECTRIC
GUITAR) are blasphemous. Asian parents don’t want their child to risk
becoming evil rock musicians! Asian kids must be proper. They must be
able to play the kind of music that can be heard at church or when
family friends visit. They must be able to read at a 5thgrade level
before they are potty-trained. And most importantly, they must learn
how to haggle with other children when trading lunches in order to
achieve the most economical utility.
Note from Author: Acceptable instruments other than piano and violin
include: flute, clarinet, oboe, cello (only after Yo-Yo Ma became a
big star), and vocal ensembles. (At my middle and high schools, the
flute sections at ensembles were overwhelmingly Asian while brass
instruments were white.) The guitar is allowed after the age of 18,
when children are legal adults and want to play sad songs about how
the girl in Multi-Quantum Physics isn’t digging their outfit or
accepting their invitations to buy boba (but let’s save that for a
later post).
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> The part I don't understand is why violin and piano and absolutelyI found a pretty detailed blog post about that, written by a
> no other instrument?
(Westernized) Asian woman. (There's more at the blog) -- Joyce
http://www.asian-central.com/stuffasianpeoplelike/2008/03/17/37-piano-violin/
The piano is considered by asians as the core instrument that one
learns in order to first understand the essentials of music.Why? In
order to successfully know how to play piano, asians must know how to
read both the treble and bass clefs. That means understanding the
intricacies of a whole other language at the ripe age of 3, which in
turn, allows most asian children to comprehend how to efficiently use
their left and right brain hemispheres at an earlier age. Do you ever
wonder why asian children are so gifted mathematically and spatially?
That’s your answer. Asians will also enroll their children in musical
classes to serve the community.
For Asian-Christian families, the ability to play piano means that the
child can have his or her turn at ‘performing” during church
services. That way, Mrs. Chung can brag (more on bragging below) to
everyone that it’s her Jenny out there playing ‘”˜Praise My
Soul’ like an angel.” The accolades don’t end in the
congregation hall. That’s why pianos are, most importantly,
expensive. To have one in the living room is a subtle (in an asian
sense) way of telling everyone that the Asians are keeping up with the
‘Joneses” (or the Wongs).
In asian circles, piano is the choice instrument, followed very
closely by the violin. The violin is often a preference because it’s
small and portable, great for young children. Asian kids start private
music lessons as kindergarteners (before they start learning how to
use chopsticks, but after they start their introductory calculus
lessons), or even while in pre-school (I had my first piano lesson
just before my 4th birthday)! The sound it makes is very soft and
smooth when playing strictly classical music (a proper Asian kid does
NOT fiddle). The violin, like piano, is also more likely to be a
‘star” instrument, which will more times than none draw more
attention to the child’s parents.
To Conservative Asians, most other instruments are a no-no. Especially
brass instruments and instruments associated with bands and more
popular music. To Asian parents, instruments such as trombones,
saxophones, trumpets, percussive drums, guitar (especially ELECTRIC
GUITAR) are blasphemous. Asian parents don’t want their child to risk
becoming evil rock musicians! Asian kids must be proper. They must be
able to play the kind of music that can be heard at church or when
family friends visit. They must be able to read at a 5thgrade level
before they are potty-trained. And most importantly, they must learn
how to haggle with other children when trading lunches in order to
achieve the most economical utility.
Note from Author: Acceptable instruments other than piano and violin
include: flute, clarinet, oboe, cello (only after Yo-Yo Ma became a
big star), and vocal ensembles. (At my middle and high schools, the
flute sections at ensembles were overwhelmingly Asian while brass
instruments were white.) The guitar is allowed after the age of 18,
when children are legal adults and want to play sad songs about how
the girl in Multi-Quantum Physics isn’t digging their outfit or
accepting their invitations to buy boba (but let’s save that for a
later post).
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
David Lewis
***Piano is good for learning music theory, because the keys are set up to look like the sounds they make (meaning... in my awkwardish attempt to explain... the C looks like the other C's, and up is clearly up, unlike other instruments).***
Dylan is recently interested in guitar and has been playing his dad's classical guitar. He plays it left handed. Dylan is not usually left handed. I think, because he plays piano and organ, playing the guitar left handed makes more sense to him. The high notes are high and the low notes are low. <g>
Deb Lewis
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Dylan is recently interested in guitar and has been playing his dad's classical guitar. He plays it left handed. Dylan is not usually left handed. I think, because he plays piano and organ, playing the guitar left handed makes more sense to him. The high notes are high and the low notes are low. <g>
Deb Lewis
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robin Bentley
> ***Piano is good for learning music theory, because the keys are setOn Celtic harps, all the red strings are C and the blue strings are F.
> up to look like the sounds they make (meaning... in my awkwardish
> attempt to explain... the C looks like the other C's, and up is
> clearly up, unlike other instruments).***
>
My harp instructor says that piano players have an easier time than
guitar players (like me) because the strings are laid out to be played
like a piano, with both hands like a piano.
Robin B.
Bea
There is a follow up article here:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/16/fashion/16Cultural.html?ref=homepage&src=me&pagewanted=all
Here is my favorite quote:
"She confesses in her book that she is "not good at enjoying life," and that she wasn't naturally curious or skeptical like other law students. "I just wanted to write down everything the professor said and memorize it."
She was determined to raise her daughters the way she and her three sisters had been raised which, she said, left them adoring their parents. By her account, her elder daughter, Sophia, complied, excelled and played piano at Carnegie Hall. But the younger, Lulu, rebelled. At the turning point of the memoir, Lulu, then 13, begins smashing glasses in a Moscow restaurant and yelling at her mother, "I HATE my life, I HATE you." "
Bea
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/16/fashion/16Cultural.html?ref=homepage&src=me&pagewanted=all
Here is my favorite quote:
"She confesses in her book that she is "not good at enjoying life," and that she wasn't naturally curious or skeptical like other law students. "I just wanted to write down everything the professor said and memorize it."
She was determined to raise her daughters the way she and her three sisters had been raised which, she said, left them adoring their parents. By her account, her elder daughter, Sophia, complied, excelled and played piano at Carnegie Hall. But the younger, Lulu, rebelled. At the turning point of the memoir, Lulu, then 13, begins smashing glasses in a Moscow restaurant and yelling at her mother, "I HATE my life, I HATE you." "
Bea
[email protected]
I have so much to say that I don't know where to start.
A little bit about myself
I am Chinese and I was raised the same way. My parents never pushed me like What Amy did. Instead, I was pushing myself. I was pushing myself so I didn't need to face my parents' disappointment. The pressure was the same.
The results:
I was accepted by the most competitive and prestigious university in China and I was one of the 15 students chosen from the province of 60 millions population.
At that time, in China (still true today), getting a college degree was a matter of life or death for one's life. And the annual college entrance exam was the only goal for all children as far as schooling was concerned.
For that goal, I had been following a routine like this: get up at 5am and sleep at 10pm everyday for ten some years. Study, study and study.
In school, we studied for the purpose of THE Exam down the road (college entrance exam). Any books other than textbooks were discouraged because only content that would be tested had meaning. The strategy was that you had done testing so many times that you should be able to "know the answer" right away.
So the real results:
1. I had false self-confidence.
2. I am afraid of failures. I didn't like to try anything that I didn't feel I would "succeed" (no matter what it means)
3. I had a very narrow "knowledge base".
4. I only had "textbook knowledge". I didn't know how to apply to real life. In my middle school physics class, I could solve any problem about pulley. But I had never seen one in real life until a year ago when I installed pulleys on a play house for my children.
5. I only had one way of learning: linear (from start to end), following instruction...by comparison, my children have so many ways of learning
6.When I graduated from university, the only applicable skill I had for working on a real job was my typing skill.
7. I constantly seek validation and approval. Also I look for the "right answer" (those multichoice questions did the trick to condition my brain)
8. I focused on end results instead of processes.
......
So having been on "the other side", I am not impressed by or interested in Amy Chua's Chinese way at all. Let them be the doctors, whom I am not going to see; or lawyers, whom I don't think I would trust (street smart is more important)
Instead, I think the unschooling way is superior:
1. produce happy children
save them from being lost in their life, soul searching for many years and seeing psychiatrist.
Sacrificing our children's childhood (only 12 or 15 years) for adulthood? not a good plan.
2. Relationship lasts for a long time while "preparing for the future" only lasts for a short period of time.
3. Just-in-time learning is better than just-in-case learning
4. Passion driven pursuit can turn hard working into enjoyment instead of suffering
5. Freedom
6. More adaptable
7. Creativity and originality are the most important competitive advantages in a more and more flattened world.
8. Collaboration is more important than competition
9. Communication/social skills are must-haves for the future
And...by the time they turn 18, we will already have 18 years happy and fulfilling life...we are 18 years ahead of them. They may not be happy by the time they have achieved all their "goals".
I vote for unschooling for its superiority.
Joy
A little bit about myself
I am Chinese and I was raised the same way. My parents never pushed me like What Amy did. Instead, I was pushing myself. I was pushing myself so I didn't need to face my parents' disappointment. The pressure was the same.
The results:
I was accepted by the most competitive and prestigious university in China and I was one of the 15 students chosen from the province of 60 millions population.
At that time, in China (still true today), getting a college degree was a matter of life or death for one's life. And the annual college entrance exam was the only goal for all children as far as schooling was concerned.
For that goal, I had been following a routine like this: get up at 5am and sleep at 10pm everyday for ten some years. Study, study and study.
In school, we studied for the purpose of THE Exam down the road (college entrance exam). Any books other than textbooks were discouraged because only content that would be tested had meaning. The strategy was that you had done testing so many times that you should be able to "know the answer" right away.
So the real results:
1. I had false self-confidence.
2. I am afraid of failures. I didn't like to try anything that I didn't feel I would "succeed" (no matter what it means)
3. I had a very narrow "knowledge base".
4. I only had "textbook knowledge". I didn't know how to apply to real life. In my middle school physics class, I could solve any problem about pulley. But I had never seen one in real life until a year ago when I installed pulleys on a play house for my children.
5. I only had one way of learning: linear (from start to end), following instruction...by comparison, my children have so many ways of learning
6.When I graduated from university, the only applicable skill I had for working on a real job was my typing skill.
7. I constantly seek validation and approval. Also I look for the "right answer" (those multichoice questions did the trick to condition my brain)
8. I focused on end results instead of processes.
......
So having been on "the other side", I am not impressed by or interested in Amy Chua's Chinese way at all. Let them be the doctors, whom I am not going to see; or lawyers, whom I don't think I would trust (street smart is more important)
Instead, I think the unschooling way is superior:
1. produce happy children
save them from being lost in their life, soul searching for many years and seeing psychiatrist.
Sacrificing our children's childhood (only 12 or 15 years) for adulthood? not a good plan.
2. Relationship lasts for a long time while "preparing for the future" only lasts for a short period of time.
3. Just-in-time learning is better than just-in-case learning
4. Passion driven pursuit can turn hard working into enjoyment instead of suffering
5. Freedom
6. More adaptable
7. Creativity and originality are the most important competitive advantages in a more and more flattened world.
8. Collaboration is more important than competition
9. Communication/social skills are must-haves for the future
And...by the time they turn 18, we will already have 18 years happy and fulfilling life...we are 18 years ahead of them. They may not be happy by the time they have achieved all their "goals".
I vote for unschooling for its superiority.
Joy
Sandra Dodd
-=-At that time, in China (still true today), getting a college degree was a matter of life or death for one's life. And the annual college entrance exam was the only goal for all children as far as schooling was concerned.-=-
Life or death for one's future? For having choices? To keep from working in a mine?
What kind of life or death?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Life or death for one's future? For having choices? To keep from working in a mine?
What kind of life or death?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
dola dasgupta-banerji
-=-At that time, in China (still true today), getting a college degree was a
matter of life or death for one's life. And the annual college entrance exam
was the only goal for all children as far as schooling was concerned.-=-
I think I know what she means here. It has been the same in Indian society,
where from nursery school admission to high school examination, lives of
most kids are just lost in a "percieved" struggle to stay "alive" in this
"cruel, competitive world".
Of course most of it is "self created" by the parents who are simply trying
to live their dreams and unfulfilled desires through their children. Every
decision from which "prestigious school" the child gets admission into to
what grade the child gets in high school exam to which area of study the
teenager gets into is measured with a distant benchmark of "what job, how
much money, how big a house and how many."
Then there are moms who felt they lost out by early marriages (mostly
arranged), who want that not to happen to their daughters. and fathers who
were always sized up with huge expectation from his parents for making it
"big and successful". So he does the same with his sons......
There are huge demonic fears inside men and women almost a paranoia that "I
will loose out if I do not struggle and fight". It is crazy really.
Not to mention the immense lack of facilities for quality formal education
to cater to huge numbers who want to stay in the conventional mode.
Dola
matter of life or death for one's life. And the annual college entrance exam
was the only goal for all children as far as schooling was concerned.-=-
I think I know what she means here. It has been the same in Indian society,
where from nursery school admission to high school examination, lives of
most kids are just lost in a "percieved" struggle to stay "alive" in this
"cruel, competitive world".
Of course most of it is "self created" by the parents who are simply trying
to live their dreams and unfulfilled desires through their children. Every
decision from which "prestigious school" the child gets admission into to
what grade the child gets in high school exam to which area of study the
teenager gets into is measured with a distant benchmark of "what job, how
much money, how big a house and how many."
Then there are moms who felt they lost out by early marriages (mostly
arranged), who want that not to happen to their daughters. and fathers who
were always sized up with huge expectation from his parents for making it
"big and successful". So he does the same with his sons......
There are huge demonic fears inside men and women almost a paranoia that "I
will loose out if I do not struggle and fight". It is crazy really.
Not to mention the immense lack of facilities for quality formal education
to cater to huge numbers who want to stay in the conventional mode.
Dola
On Sun, Jan 16, 2011 at 9:13 AM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
>
> -=-At that time, in China (still true today), getting a college degree was
> a matter of life or death for one's life. And the annual college entrance
> exam was the only goal for all children as far as schooling was
> concerned.-=-
>
> Life or death for one's future? For having choices? To keep from working in
> a mine?
> What kind of life or death?
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]