Unschooling from bed
debbiernoll
Help! I need some solutions for how to manage my home and some semblance of peace while unable to get out of bed. I'm currently about 9 weeks pregnant with my fourth child and very, very sick. I have a 13 yo daughter, 10 yo son, and 7 yo old daughter and we've been unschooling about a year and a half. I was also very sick with my girls but not quite as bad with my son so we knew we could expect this when we decided to have another baby. Right now I'm extremely nauseous 24/7. It's rare for me to be able to even sit up in bed. Sometimes just changing positions makes me throw up. I'm basically only getting up to use the bathroom. I know from my previous pregnancies that it's not going to change much for the next several months.
Interestingly, the kids were the ones who begged us to consider having another baby. They even did all the housework for a few days to "prove" to us that it would be ok for me to be sick. However, now that I am that's all changed. They never even attempted to help out from the begining. The house is continually trashed - think 3 kids who leave out every dish they use, leave their clothes wherever they take them off, put absolutely nothing away that they use or play with and you get the idea. My poor husband comes home from a long day at work and that's what he walks into. It's definitely not contributing to a peaceful home environment. I've been much more lenient with them the past year, cleaning up for them, not forcing them to do chores and my husband feels that I've turned them into irresponsible slobs who can't clean up after themselves. I'm afraid the evidence speaks for itself.
I know this is hard for them and even though they are older I'm sure it's still overwhelming. Even though we talked a lot about what it would be like ahead of time, I know the reality is harder than they expected. I don't want to be too hard on them but I can't ignore the reality of the situation either. It's really not fair for my husband to work all day and then come home to clean up after a 13, 10 and 7 yo who sat watching tv and playing on the computer all day.
I'm really at a loss as to what to do. It is a necessity, right now, that they help out or, atleast, clean up after themselves because I'm not available to do it. I don't want to go back to lists, charts, rewards, punishments and angry power struggles though either.
If anyone has any suggestions for maintaining some balance, order and peace in a way that's fair to everybody I would greatly appreciate it.
Interestingly, the kids were the ones who begged us to consider having another baby. They even did all the housework for a few days to "prove" to us that it would be ok for me to be sick. However, now that I am that's all changed. They never even attempted to help out from the begining. The house is continually trashed - think 3 kids who leave out every dish they use, leave their clothes wherever they take them off, put absolutely nothing away that they use or play with and you get the idea. My poor husband comes home from a long day at work and that's what he walks into. It's definitely not contributing to a peaceful home environment. I've been much more lenient with them the past year, cleaning up for them, not forcing them to do chores and my husband feels that I've turned them into irresponsible slobs who can't clean up after themselves. I'm afraid the evidence speaks for itself.
I know this is hard for them and even though they are older I'm sure it's still overwhelming. Even though we talked a lot about what it would be like ahead of time, I know the reality is harder than they expected. I don't want to be too hard on them but I can't ignore the reality of the situation either. It's really not fair for my husband to work all day and then come home to clean up after a 13, 10 and 7 yo who sat watching tv and playing on the computer all day.
I'm really at a loss as to what to do. It is a necessity, right now, that they help out or, atleast, clean up after themselves because I'm not available to do it. I don't want to go back to lists, charts, rewards, punishments and angry power struggles though either.
If anyone has any suggestions for maintaining some balance, order and peace in a way that's fair to everybody I would greatly appreciate it.
Jenny Cyphers
***Interestingly, the kids were the ones who begged us to consider having
another baby. They even did all the housework for a few days to "prove" to us
that it would be ok for me to be sick. However, now that I am that's all
changed. They never even attempted to help out from the begining. ***
That was a deal they couldn't keep. Being pregnant and having another child
isn't their responsibility. It is yours and your husband. Make the experience
pleasant for them, something they anticipate and look forward to.
***I'm really at a loss as to what to do. It is a necessity, right now, that
they help out or, atleast, clean up after themselves because I'm not available
to do it. I don't want to go back to lists, charts, rewards, punishments and
angry power struggles though either.
If anyone has any suggestions for maintaining some balance, order and peace in a
way that's fair to everybody I would greatly appreciate it. ***
The problem you are facing is BECAUSE you had lists, charts, rewards,
punishments, and angry power struggles. The kids will continue what they are
doing because they are waiting for you to step in and tell them what to do with
lists and charts and rewards and power struggles. That is how you've trained
them thus far to view household maintenance. Until they see the value for
themselves, in doing these things, they probably won't do them.
There are things that you and your husband can do to help. One of my favorite
ways to do a household cleanup when I'm overwhelmed, is the 10 min pickup.
That's and easy one for the whole family and can be done just before your
husband gets home. If he can come home and not feel overwhelmed, it's much more
likely he will be able to pick up the rest of the household maintenance. A 10
min pickup is basically doing as much as a person can for that allotted time and
then stopping. It might even be a small enough time for you to help too without
feeling terribly sick. It's enough time for one person to gather all dishes,
another to pick up coats and shoes, and another to take out garbage.
I would highly suggest hiring someone to come and help out. It doesn't need to
be a do everything someone, just maybe someone to do the dishes or vacuum or
clean the toilet. Hire a teenager that lives nearby, someone who can come over
every couple of days for an hour or two. It might be worth it monetarily, to
end power struggles and the general pattern towards household maintenance. It's
a valuable skill that people get paid to do, unless you do it yourself and keep
your pocket money.
The evidence that you are seeing from your children is the main reason that I
haven't done that. I want my kids to help out because they WANT to help out and
see a need for it. I have a 16 yr old that will do the dishes willingly simply
because she wants to hang out in the kitchen with me and sees a need for dishes
to be clean. It really is that simple, but in order to get that outcome you
must make it all part of the joys of living, not chores that must be done.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
another baby. They even did all the housework for a few days to "prove" to us
that it would be ok for me to be sick. However, now that I am that's all
changed. They never even attempted to help out from the begining. ***
That was a deal they couldn't keep. Being pregnant and having another child
isn't their responsibility. It is yours and your husband. Make the experience
pleasant for them, something they anticipate and look forward to.
***I'm really at a loss as to what to do. It is a necessity, right now, that
they help out or, atleast, clean up after themselves because I'm not available
to do it. I don't want to go back to lists, charts, rewards, punishments and
angry power struggles though either.
If anyone has any suggestions for maintaining some balance, order and peace in a
way that's fair to everybody I would greatly appreciate it. ***
The problem you are facing is BECAUSE you had lists, charts, rewards,
punishments, and angry power struggles. The kids will continue what they are
doing because they are waiting for you to step in and tell them what to do with
lists and charts and rewards and power struggles. That is how you've trained
them thus far to view household maintenance. Until they see the value for
themselves, in doing these things, they probably won't do them.
There are things that you and your husband can do to help. One of my favorite
ways to do a household cleanup when I'm overwhelmed, is the 10 min pickup.
That's and easy one for the whole family and can be done just before your
husband gets home. If he can come home and not feel overwhelmed, it's much more
likely he will be able to pick up the rest of the household maintenance. A 10
min pickup is basically doing as much as a person can for that allotted time and
then stopping. It might even be a small enough time for you to help too without
feeling terribly sick. It's enough time for one person to gather all dishes,
another to pick up coats and shoes, and another to take out garbage.
I would highly suggest hiring someone to come and help out. It doesn't need to
be a do everything someone, just maybe someone to do the dishes or vacuum or
clean the toilet. Hire a teenager that lives nearby, someone who can come over
every couple of days for an hour or two. It might be worth it monetarily, to
end power struggles and the general pattern towards household maintenance. It's
a valuable skill that people get paid to do, unless you do it yourself and keep
your pocket money.
The evidence that you are seeing from your children is the main reason that I
haven't done that. I want my kids to help out because they WANT to help out and
see a need for it. I have a 16 yr old that will do the dishes willingly simply
because she wants to hang out in the kitchen with me and sees a need for dishes
to be clean. It really is that simple, but in order to get that outcome you
must make it all part of the joys of living, not chores that must be done.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=- I've been much more lenient with them the past year, cleaning up for them, not forcing them to do chores and my husband feels that I've turned them into irresponsible slobs who can't clean up after themselves. I'm afraid the evidence speaks for itself. -=-
But the evidence isn't about unschooling.
The only way you can "be lenient" is if someone else is condemned.
It's not their fault you're pregnant. Seriously. It seems you're blaming them for deciding to have another baby (your words), but neither of them is "having a baby."
-=-Even though we talked a lot about what it would be like ahead of time, I know the reality is harder than they expected. I don't want to be too hard on them but I can't ignore the reality of the situation either. -=-
There is a really good reason that children are not legally able to enter into contracts. And adults who enter into a contract have ways to extricate themselves. I think you're assuming that a child saying "okay" constitutes an unbreakable contract, but it doesn't. It means the parent wasn't very realistic, or fair.
-=- It's really not fair for my husband to work all day and then come home to clean up after a 13, 10 and 7 yo who sat watching tv and playing on the computer all day.-=-
Perhaps "not fair."
Perhaps he could be fun enough and engaging enough that when he got home the four of them could clean up together, lovingly, sweetly.
If it's "their job," then the only way they can win is to get out of "their job." It sounds like a lose/lose situation for the kids.
-=-It is a necessity, right now, that they help out or, atleast, clean up after themselves because I'm not available to do it.-=-
It is NOT "a necessity." It would be nice. But it's not their duty, not their contract, and not even their house.
-=-I don't want to go back to lists, charts, rewards, punishments and angry power struggles though either.-=-
Do you think that would help? Are you well enough to get up and yell and punish them? Would that make them want to do more for you in the long run?
When you were really sick with the first pregnancy, who cleaned your house for you?
-=-If anyone has any suggestions for maintaining some balance, order and peace in a way that's fair to everybody I would greatly appreciate it. -=-
Ah. This isn't the "Fair to everybody" list, though. Very rarely is any situation "fair to everybody," so it's probably the wrong tree to be sniffing around.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
But the evidence isn't about unschooling.
The only way you can "be lenient" is if someone else is condemned.
It's not their fault you're pregnant. Seriously. It seems you're blaming them for deciding to have another baby (your words), but neither of them is "having a baby."
-=-Even though we talked a lot about what it would be like ahead of time, I know the reality is harder than they expected. I don't want to be too hard on them but I can't ignore the reality of the situation either. -=-
There is a really good reason that children are not legally able to enter into contracts. And adults who enter into a contract have ways to extricate themselves. I think you're assuming that a child saying "okay" constitutes an unbreakable contract, but it doesn't. It means the parent wasn't very realistic, or fair.
-=- It's really not fair for my husband to work all day and then come home to clean up after a 13, 10 and 7 yo who sat watching tv and playing on the computer all day.-=-
Perhaps "not fair."
Perhaps he could be fun enough and engaging enough that when he got home the four of them could clean up together, lovingly, sweetly.
If it's "their job," then the only way they can win is to get out of "their job." It sounds like a lose/lose situation for the kids.
-=-It is a necessity, right now, that they help out or, atleast, clean up after themselves because I'm not available to do it.-=-
It is NOT "a necessity." It would be nice. But it's not their duty, not their contract, and not even their house.
-=-I don't want to go back to lists, charts, rewards, punishments and angry power struggles though either.-=-
Do you think that would help? Are you well enough to get up and yell and punish them? Would that make them want to do more for you in the long run?
When you were really sick with the first pregnancy, who cleaned your house for you?
-=-If anyone has any suggestions for maintaining some balance, order and peace in a way that's fair to everybody I would greatly appreciate it. -=-
Ah. This isn't the "Fair to everybody" list, though. Very rarely is any situation "fair to everybody," so it's probably the wrong tree to be sniffing around.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kelly Lovejoy
Can you print out this post and give each one a copy?
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
"There is no single effort more radical in its potential for saving the world than a transformation of the way we raise our children." Marianne Williamson
-----Original Message-----
From: debbiernoll <debbiernoll@...>
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Unschooling from bed
Help! I need some solutions for how to manage my home and some semblance of
peace while unable to get out of bed. I'm currently about 9 weeks pregnant with
my fourth child and very, very sick. I have a 13 yo daughter, 10 yo son, and 7
yo old daughter and we've been unschooling about a year and a half. I was also
very sick with my girls but not quite as bad with my son so we knew we could
expect this when we decided to have another baby. Right now I'm extremely
nauseous 24/7. It's rare for me to be able to even sit up in bed. Sometimes just
changing positions makes me throw up. I'm basically only getting up to use the
bathroom. I know from my previous pregnancies that it's not going to change much
for the next several months.
Interestingly, the kids were the ones who begged us to consider having another
baby. They even did all the housework for a few days to "prove" to us that it
would be ok for me to be sick. However, now that I am that's all changed. They
never even attempted to help out from the begining. The house is continually
trashed - think 3 kids who leave out every dish they use, leave their clothes
wherever they take them off, put absolutely nothing away that they use or play
with and you get the idea. My poor husband comes home from a long day at work
and that's what he walks into. It's definitely not contributing to a peaceful
home environment. I've been much more lenient with them the past year, cleaning
up for them, not forcing them to do chores and my husband feels that I've turned
them into irresponsible slobs who can't clean up after themselves. I'm afraid
the evidence speaks for itself.
I know this is hard for them and even though they are older I'm sure it's still
overwhelming. Even though we talked a lot about what it would be like ahead of
time, I know the reality is harder than they expected. I don't want to be too
hard on them but I can't ignore the reality of the situation either. It's
really not fair for my husband to work all day and then come home to clean up
after a 13, 10 and 7 yo who sat watching tv and playing on the computer all day.
I'm really at a loss as to what to do. It is a necessity, right now, that they
help out or, atleast, clean up after themselves because I'm not available to do
it. I don't want to go back to lists, charts, rewards, punishments and angry
power struggles though either.
If anyone has any suggestions for maintaining some balance, order and peace in a
way that's fair to everybody I would greatly appreciate it.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
"There is no single effort more radical in its potential for saving the world than a transformation of the way we raise our children." Marianne Williamson
-----Original Message-----
From: debbiernoll <debbiernoll@...>
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Unschooling from bed
Help! I need some solutions for how to manage my home and some semblance of
peace while unable to get out of bed. I'm currently about 9 weeks pregnant with
my fourth child and very, very sick. I have a 13 yo daughter, 10 yo son, and 7
yo old daughter and we've been unschooling about a year and a half. I was also
very sick with my girls but not quite as bad with my son so we knew we could
expect this when we decided to have another baby. Right now I'm extremely
nauseous 24/7. It's rare for me to be able to even sit up in bed. Sometimes just
changing positions makes me throw up. I'm basically only getting up to use the
bathroom. I know from my previous pregnancies that it's not going to change much
for the next several months.
Interestingly, the kids were the ones who begged us to consider having another
baby. They even did all the housework for a few days to "prove" to us that it
would be ok for me to be sick. However, now that I am that's all changed. They
never even attempted to help out from the begining. The house is continually
trashed - think 3 kids who leave out every dish they use, leave their clothes
wherever they take them off, put absolutely nothing away that they use or play
with and you get the idea. My poor husband comes home from a long day at work
and that's what he walks into. It's definitely not contributing to a peaceful
home environment. I've been much more lenient with them the past year, cleaning
up for them, not forcing them to do chores and my husband feels that I've turned
them into irresponsible slobs who can't clean up after themselves. I'm afraid
the evidence speaks for itself.
I know this is hard for them and even though they are older I'm sure it's still
overwhelming. Even though we talked a lot about what it would be like ahead of
time, I know the reality is harder than they expected. I don't want to be too
hard on them but I can't ignore the reality of the situation either. It's
really not fair for my husband to work all day and then come home to clean up
after a 13, 10 and 7 yo who sat watching tv and playing on the computer all day.
I'm really at a loss as to what to do. It is a necessity, right now, that they
help out or, atleast, clean up after themselves because I'm not available to do
it. I don't want to go back to lists, charts, rewards, punishments and angry
power struggles though either.
If anyone has any suggestions for maintaining some balance, order and peace in a
way that's fair to everybody I would greatly appreciate it.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
andrea catalano
In my experience, friends and relatives are very willing to help during
pregnancy and the newborn days. If you have a close friend, ask her if she would
be willing to come and help out regularly (once a week or whatever seems
reasonable) either to pick up or fold clothes, run a wash, whatever. A hour or
so of focused cleaning goes a long way. If she can do it in a fun and light way,
she can invite the kids to help. If she won't be OK with them refusing, however,
don't even suggest that.
Another good option is to hire someone to come. For us, spending some $$ on
cleaning help (and not on something else if funds are tight) is a very good use
of our resources because it makes our home happier, more peaceful and more
functional. I suggest having someone come as often as you can afford while you
are sick. A side benefit of having another adult in your house regularly right
now is that she might be able to help care for you all. She will be ale to check
on you and bring you something to drink. She can check on the kids and bring
them a snack and be kind to them and reassuring. She might even be able to help
them with projects or pick up materials for them so their lives remain full and
interesting during this difficult period. There is tremendous value in providing
extra care for EVERYONE in the household during times of crisis.
Best wishes, Andrea
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
pregnancy and the newborn days. If you have a close friend, ask her if she would
be willing to come and help out regularly (once a week or whatever seems
reasonable) either to pick up or fold clothes, run a wash, whatever. A hour or
so of focused cleaning goes a long way. If she can do it in a fun and light way,
she can invite the kids to help. If she won't be OK with them refusing, however,
don't even suggest that.
Another good option is to hire someone to come. For us, spending some $$ on
cleaning help (and not on something else if funds are tight) is a very good use
of our resources because it makes our home happier, more peaceful and more
functional. I suggest having someone come as often as you can afford while you
are sick. A side benefit of having another adult in your house regularly right
now is that she might be able to help care for you all. She will be ale to check
on you and bring you something to drink. She can check on the kids and bring
them a snack and be kind to them and reassuring. She might even be able to help
them with projects or pick up materials for them so their lives remain full and
interesting during this difficult period. There is tremendous value in providing
extra care for EVERYONE in the household during times of crisis.
Best wishes, Andrea
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
This post is being put through for the record, without the name of the poster. She left the list this morning, but I'll blindcopy her on this. I'll comment in another post.
------------------------
This woman was asking for help. Not only did you not give her any suggestions,
your response was so cold and cruel I could not believe it. Maybe she made some
poor decisions--it is not your place to judge. The bottom line is she needs some
advice on how to handle a situation that already exists. I was glad to see one
response that was humane(Andrea). If this list is for the purpose of focusing
strictly on uncschooling, you could have told her that in a civil way.
--- In
[email protected]
, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
irresponsible slobs who can't clean up after themselves. I'm afraid the evidence
speaks for itself. -=-
"having a baby."
them but I can't ignore the reality of the situation either. -=-
themselves. I think you're assuming that a child saying "okay" constitutes an
unbreakable contract, but it doesn't. It means the parent wasn't very
realistic, or fair.
all day.-=-
around.
------------------------
This woman was asking for help. Not only did you not give her any suggestions,
your response was so cold and cruel I could not believe it. Maybe she made some
poor decisions--it is not your place to judge. The bottom line is she needs some
advice on how to handle a situation that already exists. I was glad to see one
response that was humane(Andrea). If this list is for the purpose of focusing
strictly on uncschooling, you could have told her that in a civil way.
--- In
[email protected]
, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>not forcing them to do chores and my husband feels that I've turned them into
> -=- I've been much more lenient with them the past year, cleaning up for them,
irresponsible slobs who can't clean up after themselves. I'm afraid the evidence
speaks for itself. -=-
>them for deciding to have another baby (your words), but neither of them is
> But the evidence isn't about unschooling.
>
> The only way you can "be lenient" is if someone else is condemned.
>
> It's not their fault you're pregnant. Seriously. It seems you're blaming
"having a baby."
>know the reality is harder than they expected. I don't want to be too hard on
> -=-Even though we talked a lot about what it would be like ahead of time, I
them but I can't ignore the reality of the situation either. -=-
>into contracts. And adults who enter into a contract have ways to extricate
> There is a really good reason that children are not legally able to enter
themselves. I think you're assuming that a child saying "okay" constitutes an
unbreakable contract, but it doesn't. It means the parent wasn't very
realistic, or fair.
>clean up after a 13, 10 and 7 yo who sat watching tv and playing on the computer
> -=- It's really not fair for my husband to work all day and then come home to
all day.-=-
>four of them could clean up together, lovingly, sweetly.
> Perhaps "not fair."
> Perhaps he could be fun enough and engaging enough that when he got home the
> If it's "their job," then the only way they can win is to get out of "theirjob." It sounds like a lose/lose situation for the kids.
>after themselves because I'm not available to do it.-=-
> -=-It is a necessity, right now, that they help out or, atleast, clean up
>their contract, and not even their house.
> It is NOT "a necessity." It would be nice. But it's not their duty, not
>power struggles though either.-=-
> -=-I don't want to go back to lists, charts, rewards, punishments and angry
>punish them? Would that make them want to do more for you in the long run?
> Do you think that would help? Are you well enough to get up and yell and
>you?
> When you were really sick with the first pregnancy, who cleaned your house for
>in a way that's fair to everybody I would greatly appreciate it. -=-
> -=-If anyone has any suggestions for maintaining some balance, order and peace
>situation "fair to everybody," so it's probably the wrong tree to be sniffing
> Ah. This isn't the "Fair to everybody" list, though. Very rarely is any
around.
>
> Sandra
Sandra Dodd
-=-This woman was asking for help. Not only did you not give her any suggestions,
your response was so cold and cruel I could not believe it. Maybe she made some
poor decisions--it is not your place to judge. The bottom line is she needs some
advice on how to handle a situation that already exists. I was glad to see one
response that was humane(Andrea). If this list is for the purpose of focusing
strictly on uncschooling, you could have told her that in a civil way.-=-
This says we (or that I specifically) gave no suggestions. That is not true.
-=-Maybe she made some poor decisions--it is not your place to judge.-=-
Somehow, though it is the place of the person who wrote this to judge that I was unbelievably cold and cruel.
"To judge"?
I judged that the direction this mom wanted to go was not going to lead her to unschooling.
If you, dear blind-copied reader (or anyone else) were in Albuquerque, and said you wanted to get to Denver, and then described to me how you were going to drive toward Socorro because you thought your children SHOULD be driven toward Socorro, and that unschooling (or driving to Denver) is different for everyone, and that you were sick, anyway, and so your whole car should go toward Socorro, even though you couldn't personally drive.... I would say "That is the wrong direction."
I would say "That is not the way to get to Denver."
I would say "Do you want to go to Denver, or not?"
Would that be so cold and cruel you would not believe it?
What if someone posted on a "how to drive to Denver" list? Would it be my purpose (in your judgment) to explain to her in a civil way that the list was strictly about driving to Denver, and not a feel-good list designed to soothe and "support" people who wanted to mosey to Denver in whatever ass-backwards and harmful-to-their-children way they want to go!?
If you, gentle dropped-off-the-list reader, would like to create such a list, please do.
If anyone sees a post by me, or by anyone else on this list, and feels it missed the mark, here is exactly what to do:
Write a better response, and then hit send.
Don't tell me mine sucked. Do better.
If you can't do better, then don't do anything, but don't tell me mine sucked.
Go tell all your friends I suck if you want to, but don't do it at my house, or on my list.
Perhaps that is cold and cruel, but I don't think so.
-=-. I was glad to see one response that was humane(Andrea).-=-
The judge of what is "humane" declares Andrea the winner! that means the rest of those who posted were inhumane.
I thought Kelly's suggestion that she print out that complaint/concern and give it to her family was pretty direct, and neither humane nor inhumane at all.
I don't like to think of this list (MY list) as a competition to see who can be the most humane, or the most helpful, or the most purely unschooling. I like to think of it as it is: a discussion list. Discussions take more than one participant. It's not a debate. It's not a test. It's not a contest. It's a discussion.
"This discussion SUCKS" isn't a good contribution to a discussion.
If anyone has been court ordered to join this list and participate, please send me a copy of the order. I would be glad to remove you from the list and send a letter to the judge who ordered your participation saying that is NOT a proper use of this list, and that if he wants to hold someone in contempt of court to let it be me. I'm pretty sure no one has been ordered by any court nor even by a spouse to join this list. No one "has to" be here. I don't even have to be here.
http://sandradodd.com/haveto
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
your response was so cold and cruel I could not believe it. Maybe she made some
poor decisions--it is not your place to judge. The bottom line is she needs some
advice on how to handle a situation that already exists. I was glad to see one
response that was humane(Andrea). If this list is for the purpose of focusing
strictly on uncschooling, you could have told her that in a civil way.-=-
This says we (or that I specifically) gave no suggestions. That is not true.
-=-Maybe she made some poor decisions--it is not your place to judge.-=-
Somehow, though it is the place of the person who wrote this to judge that I was unbelievably cold and cruel.
"To judge"?
I judged that the direction this mom wanted to go was not going to lead her to unschooling.
If you, dear blind-copied reader (or anyone else) were in Albuquerque, and said you wanted to get to Denver, and then described to me how you were going to drive toward Socorro because you thought your children SHOULD be driven toward Socorro, and that unschooling (or driving to Denver) is different for everyone, and that you were sick, anyway, and so your whole car should go toward Socorro, even though you couldn't personally drive.... I would say "That is the wrong direction."
I would say "That is not the way to get to Denver."
I would say "Do you want to go to Denver, or not?"
Would that be so cold and cruel you would not believe it?
What if someone posted on a "how to drive to Denver" list? Would it be my purpose (in your judgment) to explain to her in a civil way that the list was strictly about driving to Denver, and not a feel-good list designed to soothe and "support" people who wanted to mosey to Denver in whatever ass-backwards and harmful-to-their-children way they want to go!?
If you, gentle dropped-off-the-list reader, would like to create such a list, please do.
If anyone sees a post by me, or by anyone else on this list, and feels it missed the mark, here is exactly what to do:
Write a better response, and then hit send.
Don't tell me mine sucked. Do better.
If you can't do better, then don't do anything, but don't tell me mine sucked.
Go tell all your friends I suck if you want to, but don't do it at my house, or on my list.
Perhaps that is cold and cruel, but I don't think so.
-=-. I was glad to see one response that was humane(Andrea).-=-
The judge of what is "humane" declares Andrea the winner! that means the rest of those who posted were inhumane.
I thought Kelly's suggestion that she print out that complaint/concern and give it to her family was pretty direct, and neither humane nor inhumane at all.
I don't like to think of this list (MY list) as a competition to see who can be the most humane, or the most helpful, or the most purely unschooling. I like to think of it as it is: a discussion list. Discussions take more than one participant. It's not a debate. It's not a test. It's not a contest. It's a discussion.
"This discussion SUCKS" isn't a good contribution to a discussion.
If anyone has been court ordered to join this list and participate, please send me a copy of the order. I would be glad to remove you from the list and send a letter to the judge who ordered your participation saying that is NOT a proper use of this list, and that if he wants to hold someone in contempt of court to let it be me. I'm pretty sure no one has been ordered by any court nor even by a spouse to join this list. No one "has to" be here. I don't even have to be here.
http://sandradodd.com/haveto
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
-=-This woman was asking for help. Not only did you not give her any
suggestions,
your response was so cold and cruel I could not believe it. Maybe she made some
poor decisions--it is not your place to judge. The bottom line is she needs some
advice on how to handle a situation that already exists. I was glad to see one
response that was humane(Andrea). If this list is for the purpose of focusing
strictly on uncschooling, you could have told her that in a civil way.-=-
And the biggest judgement is right there in THAT message... ***Maybe she made
somepoor decisions***
If I had made the decision to have a 4th child and someone had said that to me,
I'd want to punch them in the face. How many children one has is a very
personal one. There are some that can do it and do it well and some that
struggle, the original poster is currently struggling. She might not forever,
but it's better to analyze how to NOT struggle now, than to wait.
Recognizing that the children shouldn't be held responsible to a deal regarding
the care of a pregnant mother and newborn, will go a long way in helping a mom
in that situation who seems frustrated and looking to blame. Blaming can be so
subtle and people do it without even realizing they are doing it. Taking away
blame can take away the shame that comes with it, the expectations of not
meeting someone else's agenda, and being truly able to openly help out without
feeling as if you are giving in to the demands of others so as not to be blamed.
The blame/shame dynamic is huge and powerful and is in full operation in sooooo
many families. To me, when I read the original post, I read that part loud and
clear whether the poster intended that to come across or not. I chose NOT to
address it but am doing so now.
The quoted post above is intended to blame and shame. I hope that person
doesn't do that to her own children. I've found that people who do that, do it
to everyone and are often not aware that they are even doing it. It doesn't
create open healthy happy relationships where happy learning can flourish. It's
not solution oriented.
Blaming others can sometimes make the blamer feel as if they've done their part
and others are responsible now, so that they can *feel* right in their feelings
of how out of control they are. Once you can pass the blame onto someone else,
it's not your job anymore to fix it, but if it doesn't get fixed, then what?
You're still left with a messy house, nothing has changed at all, except that
now, everyone feels bad. If a mom can let go of blame, even blaming
themselves, they can move forward toward a workable goal. It becomes solution
oriented if you can focus on what you want to get done rather than who isn't
doing it. It's a simple process, but one that a person must be aware of to
change.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
suggestions,
your response was so cold and cruel I could not believe it. Maybe she made some
poor decisions--it is not your place to judge. The bottom line is she needs some
advice on how to handle a situation that already exists. I was glad to see one
response that was humane(Andrea). If this list is for the purpose of focusing
strictly on uncschooling, you could have told her that in a civil way.-=-
And the biggest judgement is right there in THAT message... ***Maybe she made
somepoor decisions***
If I had made the decision to have a 4th child and someone had said that to me,
I'd want to punch them in the face. How many children one has is a very
personal one. There are some that can do it and do it well and some that
struggle, the original poster is currently struggling. She might not forever,
but it's better to analyze how to NOT struggle now, than to wait.
Recognizing that the children shouldn't be held responsible to a deal regarding
the care of a pregnant mother and newborn, will go a long way in helping a mom
in that situation who seems frustrated and looking to blame. Blaming can be so
subtle and people do it without even realizing they are doing it. Taking away
blame can take away the shame that comes with it, the expectations of not
meeting someone else's agenda, and being truly able to openly help out without
feeling as if you are giving in to the demands of others so as not to be blamed.
The blame/shame dynamic is huge and powerful and is in full operation in sooooo
many families. To me, when I read the original post, I read that part loud and
clear whether the poster intended that to come across or not. I chose NOT to
address it but am doing so now.
The quoted post above is intended to blame and shame. I hope that person
doesn't do that to her own children. I've found that people who do that, do it
to everyone and are often not aware that they are even doing it. It doesn't
create open healthy happy relationships where happy learning can flourish. It's
not solution oriented.
Blaming others can sometimes make the blamer feel as if they've done their part
and others are responsible now, so that they can *feel* right in their feelings
of how out of control they are. Once you can pass the blame onto someone else,
it's not your job anymore to fix it, but if it doesn't get fixed, then what?
You're still left with a messy house, nothing has changed at all, except that
now, everyone feels bad. If a mom can let go of blame, even blaming
themselves, they can move forward toward a workable goal. It becomes solution
oriented if you can focus on what you want to get done rather than who isn't
doing it. It's a simple process, but one that a person must be aware of to
change.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
I had a response from the mom I caused to be anonymous:
========
When I wrote my e-mail, I had just read your post and I felt as though I (even though it wasn't addressed to me, and I am not in a similar situation) had been emotionally bludgeoned. I should have waited to write to you and responded more thoughtfully and made it clear that I was expressing my perceptions, not my judgment. Your e-mail felt very harsh to me, and I simply reacted. It did not appear to me to be part of a discussion; it appeared to me to be a brutal reprimand.
========
I want to talk about "bludgeoned and "brutal" separately on the list, but here was my response to the e-mail:
========
My response:
========
-=- I should have waited to write to you and responded more thoughtfully and made it clear that I was expressing my perceptions, not my judgment.-=-
But a perception involves judgment. Judgment is critical thought. People SHOULD judge how they feel about things. It's analysis.
But you wrote "it is not your place to judge." That is yards deep in criticism and judgment. You probably shouldn't be telling me what my place is.
-=-I should have waited to write to you and responded more thoughtfully-=-
Always. It seems you thought what I wrote, and others, wasn't thoughtful, but it was.
The list guidelines say
Posts for this list need to fulfill at least one of these criteria:
helps lots of people understand unschooling
asks a question that actually needs an answer
requests help seeing different aspects of a situation
helps people have more peaceful and joyful lives (helps lots of people on the list)
ALL posts should be
honest
proofread
sincere
clear
Come back to the list, if you want to! This will continue to be discussed, but I won't send you copies anymore. I'll leave you alone about it now.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
========
When I wrote my e-mail, I had just read your post and I felt as though I (even though it wasn't addressed to me, and I am not in a similar situation) had been emotionally bludgeoned. I should have waited to write to you and responded more thoughtfully and made it clear that I was expressing my perceptions, not my judgment. Your e-mail felt very harsh to me, and I simply reacted. It did not appear to me to be part of a discussion; it appeared to me to be a brutal reprimand.
========
I want to talk about "bludgeoned and "brutal" separately on the list, but here was my response to the e-mail:
========
My response:
========
-=- I should have waited to write to you and responded more thoughtfully and made it clear that I was expressing my perceptions, not my judgment.-=-
But a perception involves judgment. Judgment is critical thought. People SHOULD judge how they feel about things. It's analysis.
But you wrote "it is not your place to judge." That is yards deep in criticism and judgment. You probably shouldn't be telling me what my place is.
-=-I should have waited to write to you and responded more thoughtfully-=-
Always. It seems you thought what I wrote, and others, wasn't thoughtful, but it was.
The list guidelines say
Posts for this list need to fulfill at least one of these criteria:
helps lots of people understand unschooling
asks a question that actually needs an answer
requests help seeing different aspects of a situation
helps people have more peaceful and joyful lives (helps lots of people on the list)
ALL posts should be
honest
proofread
sincere
clear
Come back to the list, if you want to! This will continue to be discussed, but I won't send you copies anymore. I'll leave you alone about it now.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
plaidpanties666
I didn't comment on this before but have re-read it, and this jumped out:
So who's looking after the kids? If there's no other adult around until dad come home then *that's* the problem. Mom is unable to parent right now - these kids aren't being unschooled but "unparented", left to fend for themselves. That's hard. No wonder the place is a wreck, the kids are probably a wreck, too, even if they're putting on a good face for parents. Kids are Amazing at making the best of bad situations, and this is a bad situation!
I'm not saying its mom's fault, but it seems like maybe this wasn't very well thought out, to expect a 13, 10, and 7yo to raise themselves for most of a year *and* keep house. It could help to think from the perspective of "what if mom..." was in chemo, had lyme disease, broke both legs, had MS - some other disability - as a way of getting the perspective you need to problem solve. If mom were hospitalize would the kids be left at home? Would housework be the big worry?
At the very least, hire a housekeeper and move as much of the kids' stuff as possbile into mom's bedroom so they can spend as much time with her as possible. Look at renting some kind of gurney or wheelchair - something! for days mom is feeling better so she can join the kids in another room, even semi-prone. Consider a nanny - there are unschooling teens and young adults doing that kind of work, you may be able to hire one for a year. Take out a loan if necessary, but please don't leave the kids un-parented.
---Meredith
>>Right now I'm extremely nauseous 24/7. It's rare for me to be able to even sit up in bed. Sometimes just changing positions makes me throw up. I'm basically only getting up to use the bathroom.*********************
So who's looking after the kids? If there's no other adult around until dad come home then *that's* the problem. Mom is unable to parent right now - these kids aren't being unschooled but "unparented", left to fend for themselves. That's hard. No wonder the place is a wreck, the kids are probably a wreck, too, even if they're putting on a good face for parents. Kids are Amazing at making the best of bad situations, and this is a bad situation!
I'm not saying its mom's fault, but it seems like maybe this wasn't very well thought out, to expect a 13, 10, and 7yo to raise themselves for most of a year *and* keep house. It could help to think from the perspective of "what if mom..." was in chemo, had lyme disease, broke both legs, had MS - some other disability - as a way of getting the perspective you need to problem solve. If mom were hospitalize would the kids be left at home? Would housework be the big worry?
At the very least, hire a housekeeper and move as much of the kids' stuff as possbile into mom's bedroom so they can spend as much time with her as possible. Look at renting some kind of gurney or wheelchair - something! for days mom is feeling better so she can join the kids in another room, even semi-prone. Consider a nanny - there are unschooling teens and young adults doing that kind of work, you may be able to hire one for a year. Take out a loan if necessary, but please don't leave the kids un-parented.
---Meredith
kristi_beguin
>>>I know from my previous pregnancies that it's not going to change much for the next several months.<<<You sound resigned to months of misery. Have you sought treatment for the hyperemesis gravidum? There are a range of treatments that may help to alleviate some of your symptoms. Therapies range from pharmaceutical drugs such as Zofron, to more complementary approaches such as intravenous Vitamin B6, acupressure bands, medical cannabis, or determining whether health factors may be aggravating the nausea--such as hyperthyroidism.
Some relief from your physical symptoms, even if only for short periods, may offer you the ability to be present for your children and to find some joint solutions on maintaining your household.
>>>Interestingly, the kids were the ones who begged us to consider having another baby. They even did all the housework for a few days to "prove" to us that it would be ok for me to be sick. However, now that I am that's all changed. They never even attempted to help out from the begining.<<<Upon reading this, it sounds as though the kids came up with the idea for you to have another baby, and you said, "sure, okay, as long as you do all the work around the house for the next 18 or so months." I imagine the scenario was not quite so simple, and the reality is much more complicated. But as someone else said, the responsibility for your pregnancy and your home is yours and your husbands, not theirs. What can you do manage this responsibility in a way that is supportive of Unschooling?
Alex
I worked at a bookstore long enough to have several people come in looking for things for moms on bedrest. We often suggested CD sets of early radio shows as having wide age appeal. You can enjoy them while doing something else because there's no big complicated story line to follow, but you don't have to click on things every 5 minutes. Though other audio books might be nice too, playing in mom's room. Probably with 3 kids you thought of that already :) but I hope it helps. I only know storynory.com as a place for free stories online but there must be others. I'm sure your local librarian could help find you some things in the system if you guys called. Maybe they could make some sort of blanket fort nest in your room.
Alex N.
Alex N.
--- In [email protected], "debbiernoll" <debbiernoll@...> wrote:
>
> Help! I need some solutions for how to manage my home and some semblance of peace while unable to get out of bed.
Elisa
There is also Librivox.com you can find Librivox audio books to and storynory through iTunes there is also hundreds of free podcasts on iTunes with stories and educational radio type shows we have found some great ones on science and history we use the laptop in bed a bit especially so my mum can be more a part of things we do. Librivox is all the great classics and all for free we spend hours listening to our favorites like Pollyanna and Anne of Green Gables and Beatrix Potter there are so many to listen
Elisa
Elisa
----- Original Message -----
From: Alex
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2010 3:41 PM
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Unschooling from bed
I worked at a bookstore long enough to have several people come in looking for things for moms on bedrest. We often suggested CD sets of early radio shows as having wide age appeal. You can enjoy them while doing something else because there's no big complicated story line to follow, but you don't have to click on things every 5 minutes. Though other audio books might be nice too, playing in mom's room. Probably with 3 kids you thought of that already :) but I hope it helps. I only know storynory.com as a place for free stories online but there must be others. I'm sure your local librarian could help find you some things in the system if you guys called. Maybe they could make some sort of blanket fort nest in your room.
Alex N.
--- In [email protected], "debbiernoll" <debbiernoll@...> wrote:
>
> Help! I need some solutions for how to manage my home and some semblance of peace while unable to get out of bed.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Laureen
Heya!
On Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 12:02 PM, debbiernoll <debbiernoll@...> wrote:
> Help! I need some solutions for how to manage my home and some semblance of
> peace while unable to get out of bed.
>
Have you tried acupuncture? Chiropractic? Massage? Medication? There are a
lot of different ways to get at getting over pregnancy-induced physical
misery (whether it is HG or something else). There are a few groups online
that have helpful suggestions for HG (although I'm not sure that's precisely
what's up with you), so you might look into that.
Allopathic pregnancy care tends to be pretty short on solid suggestions for
misery alleviation, and I know that going non-mainstream in your medical
care when pregnant can be a little scary, but it might be a better solution
all the way around, for *all* your kids.
--
~~L!
s/v Excellent Adventure
http://www.theexcellentadventure.com/
"I can’t understand why people are frightened of new ideas. I’m frightened
of the old ones."
~~John Cage
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
dola dasgupta-banerji
After having read all the mails on this thread, I feel the original sender
is writing only of the "symptoms" of a far more deep rooted complex problem.
A problem that is stemming from her own fears, insecurities, inconfidence.
I also feel there is a huge gap in communication happening between the
partners here. Even though the responsibility of caring for the children is
primarily the mom's, I feel in this case, somewhere the Dad is washing his
hands off and the sender is feeling overburdened with feelings of inability,
inadequacy, fear.
To blame others for our own inadequacies is the best way to shun
responsibility for the decisions that we make. This itself creates web of
confusion, anger and misery. Poor health during pregnancy is a symptom of
her decision to be a mother perhaps. Even though the sender has had three
kids, and is going to have another one, I feel behind all her decisions to
have kids there is a self feeling of "I am doing this because it is the done
thing". Therefore the feeling of being "trapped" and "helpless". And also
the inability to approach or face her partner in a more assured and
confident way.
Well I understand and feel for the sender deeply, but it might help her to
get some house help right now or a grandparent to come over (if the option
exists) and use this time to examine her decisions more intimately and
closely.
Dola
On Sat, Dec 18, 2010 at 11:03 PM, plaidpanties666 <plaidpanties666@...
is writing only of the "symptoms" of a far more deep rooted complex problem.
A problem that is stemming from her own fears, insecurities, inconfidence.
I also feel there is a huge gap in communication happening between the
partners here. Even though the responsibility of caring for the children is
primarily the mom's, I feel in this case, somewhere the Dad is washing his
hands off and the sender is feeling overburdened with feelings of inability,
inadequacy, fear.
To blame others for our own inadequacies is the best way to shun
responsibility for the decisions that we make. This itself creates web of
confusion, anger and misery. Poor health during pregnancy is a symptom of
her decision to be a mother perhaps. Even though the sender has had three
kids, and is going to have another one, I feel behind all her decisions to
have kids there is a self feeling of "I am doing this because it is the done
thing". Therefore the feeling of being "trapped" and "helpless". And also
the inability to approach or face her partner in a more assured and
confident way.
Well I understand and feel for the sender deeply, but it might help her to
get some house help right now or a grandparent to come over (if the option
exists) and use this time to examine her decisions more intimately and
closely.
Dola
On Sat, Dec 18, 2010 at 11:03 PM, plaidpanties666 <plaidpanties666@...
> wrote:[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> I didn't comment on this before but have re-read it, and this jumped out:
>
> >>Right now I'm extremely nauseous 24/7. It's rare for me to be able to
> even sit up in bed. Sometimes just changing positions makes me throw up. I'm
> basically only getting up to use the bathroom.
> *********************
>
> So who's looking after the kids? If there's no other adult around until dad
> come home then *that's* the problem. Mom is unable to parent right now -
> these kids aren't being unschooled but "unparented", left to fend for
> themselves. That's hard. No wonder the place is a wreck, the kids are
> probably a wreck, too, even if they're putting on a good face for parents.
> Kids are Amazing at making the best of bad situations, and this is a bad
> situation!
>
> I'm not saying its mom's fault, but it seems like maybe this wasn't very
> well thought out, to expect a 13, 10, and 7yo to raise themselves for most
> of a year *and* keep house. It could help to think from the perspective of
> "what if mom..." was in chemo, had lyme disease, broke both legs, had MS -
> some other disability - as a way of getting the perspective you need to
> problem solve. If mom were hospitalize would the kids be left at home? Would
> housework be the big worry?
>
> At the very least, hire a housekeeper and move as much of the kids' stuff
> as possbile into mom's bedroom so they can spend as much time with her as
> possible. Look at renting some kind of gurney or wheelchair - something! for
> days mom is feeling better so she can join the kids in another room, even
> semi-prone. Consider a nanny - there are unschooling teens and young adults
> doing that kind of work, you may be able to hire one for a year. Take out a
> loan if necessary, but please don't leave the kids un-parented.
>
> ---Meredith
>
>
>