parents as puppets
Sandra Dodd
On facebook, in response to a post about how terrible it is that
babies are spanked, someone wrote, of one year olds in high chairs who
drop spoons and like it that an adult picks the spoon up:
-=-They are manipulative by nature and we need to teach them we are
not their puppet.-=-
I responded (quoted all that below) and hated to have that go away in
the stream of facebook posts. The fast-flowing river of facebook
posts. Also I wanted to save that quote above for my phrases page. http://sandradodd.com/phrases
For anyone reading here who thinks that idea seems wrong, here are
lots of ideas on partnership:
http://sandradodd.com/partners/child
That page has several links, too, but none are to the spanking topic:
http://sandradodd.com/spanking
Parents should NOT be puppets, nor think of themselves as puppets, nor
as their children as "puppeteers." Parents should be thoughtful and
compassionate and willing to entertain their children by picking up
spoons. That's some pretty cheap entertainment. But perhaps the one
year old is attempting to communicate that he's ready to get down, or
not old enough to use a spoon, or not hungry.
Sandra
babies are spanked, someone wrote, of one year olds in high chairs who
drop spoons and like it that an adult picks the spoon up:
-=-They are manipulative by nature and we need to teach them we are
not their puppet.-=-
I responded (quoted all that below) and hated to have that go away in
the stream of facebook posts. The fast-flowing river of facebook
posts. Also I wanted to save that quote above for my phrases page. http://sandradodd.com/phrases
For anyone reading here who thinks that idea seems wrong, here are
lots of ideas on partnership:
http://sandradodd.com/partners/child
That page has several links, too, but none are to the spanking topic:
http://sandradodd.com/spanking
Parents should NOT be puppets, nor think of themselves as puppets, nor
as their children as "puppeteers." Parents should be thoughtful and
compassionate and willing to entertain their children by picking up
spoons. That's some pretty cheap entertainment. But perhaps the one
year old is attempting to communicate that he's ready to get down, or
not old enough to use a spoon, or not hungry.
Sandra
k
The idea that *parents* shouldn't be puppets drew the notion that some kind
of reversal is automatic: that children should be trained!
Parenting needn't be adversarial.
~Katherine
of reversal is automatic: that children should be trained!
Parenting needn't be adversarial.
~Katherine
On Fri, Oct 1, 2010 at 11:11 AM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
> On facebook, in response to a post about how terrible it is that
> babies are spanked, someone wrote, of one year olds in high chairs who
> drop spoons and like it that an adult picks the spoon up:
>
> -=-They are manipulative by nature and we need to teach them we are
> not their puppet.-=-
>
> I responded (quoted all that below) and hated to have that go away in
> the stream of facebook posts. The fast-flowing river of facebook
> posts. Also I wanted to save that quote above for my phrases page.
> http://sandradodd.com/phrases
>
>
>
> For anyone reading here who thinks that idea seems wrong, here are
> lots of ideas on partnership:
> http://sandradodd.com/partners/child
> That page has several links, too, but none are to the spanking topic:
> http://sandradodd.com/spanking
>
> Parents should NOT be puppets, nor think of themselves as puppets, nor
> as their children as "puppeteers." Parents should be thoughtful and
> compassionate and willing to entertain their children by picking up
> spoons. That's some pretty cheap entertainment. But perhaps the one
> year old is attempting to communicate that he's ready to get down, or
> not old enough to use a spoon, or not hungry.
>
> Sandra
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
plaidpanties666
Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
As often as people express platitudes about the world as seen through the eyes of children, it's kind of sad how often adults disregard a child's perspectives. Plain old commonplace gravity is a marvel to inspire fascination and delight. The most wonderful part of being with my kids is getting to see normal everyday miracles as fresh and wonderful all over again.
---Meredith
> Parents should be thoughtful andOr that he's just discovered The Neatest Thing! Look, if you hold this thing out and let go it Falls Down. Look I'll do it again. Isn't that cool? It even makes a cool noise.
> compassionate and willing to entertain their children by picking up
> spoons. That's some pretty cheap entertainment. But perhaps the one
> year old is attempting to communicate that he's ready to get down, or
> not old enough to use a spoon, or not hungry.
As often as people express platitudes about the world as seen through the eyes of children, it's kind of sad how often adults disregard a child's perspectives. Plain old commonplace gravity is a marvel to inspire fascination and delight. The most wonderful part of being with my kids is getting to see normal everyday miracles as fresh and wonderful all over again.
---Meredith
Sandra Dodd
Daycare providers are still explaining their point of view over
there. Another of my comments:
This is only good advice for extinguishing a behavior, operant
conditioning style. For building a relationship of trust between the
parent and child, it is very bad advice:
"Also about fits. Ignore it works well. We had a 20 month old who
would throw himself on the floor with a tantrum. Mom was exasperated.
i told her step over him, ignore him totally and do dishes run the
vacuum whatever to let him know you are not the least bit distrubed by
the behavior. What did he do? He followed her from place to place
flopping his body around while she stepped over him ignored him. Does
he do it much now? Occasionally but not often."
"Works well" totally depends on the goal.
If my husband ignored me when I wanted to talk to him, I would
eventually stop trying. If what he wanted was for me to leave him
alone, for me to give up on wanting his companionship, then that would
probably "work well."
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
there. Another of my comments:
This is only good advice for extinguishing a behavior, operant
conditioning style. For building a relationship of trust between the
parent and child, it is very bad advice:
"Also about fits. Ignore it works well. We had a 20 month old who
would throw himself on the floor with a tantrum. Mom was exasperated.
i told her step over him, ignore him totally and do dishes run the
vacuum whatever to let him know you are not the least bit distrubed by
the behavior. What did he do? He followed her from place to place
flopping his body around while she stepped over him ignored him. Does
he do it much now? Occasionally but not often."
"Works well" totally depends on the goal.
If my husband ignored me when I wanted to talk to him, I would
eventually stop trying. If what he wanted was for me to leave him
alone, for me to give up on wanting his companionship, then that would
probably "work well."
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Karen James
>My little guy used to drop his spoon and laugh full belly laughs at my
> But perhaps the one
> year old is attempting to communicate that he's ready to get down, or
> not old enough to use a spoon, or not hungry.
>
antics when picking them up. The sounds were great--both the laughter and
the ring. He would get tired of doing this after several drops, but it was
easy entertainment, and honestly, it lit up my day to hear him giggle like
that.
Karen.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jennifer Schuelein
I am not a fan of people that assign complex reasoning and emotions to very small children. Babies and toddlers are exploring the world and working out what everything means. I can't imagine a child would be dropping a spoon for some elaborate ruse or reason. Picking up a spoon for a small child is hardly slave labor, even if the spoon is repeatedly dropped and picked up.
--- In [email protected], Karen James <semajrak@...> wrote:
>
> >
> > But perhaps the one
> > year old is attempting to communicate that he's ready to get down, or
> > not old enough to use a spoon, or not hungry.
> >
>
> My little guy used to drop his spoon and laugh full belly laughs at my
> antics when picking them up. The sounds were great--both the laughter and
> the ring. He would get tired of doing this after several drops, but it was
> easy entertainment, and honestly, it lit up my day to hear him giggle like
> that.
>
> Karen.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Robin Bentley
> On facebook, in response to a post about how terrible it is thatWow. I remember learning why babies do that (at La Leche League, I
> babies are spanked, someone wrote, of one year olds in high chairs who
> drop spoons and like it that an adult picks the spoon up:
>
> -=-They are manipulative by nature and we need to teach them we are
> not their puppet.-=-
>
think). They're learning cause and effect. "If I drop this spoon, what
happens?" A huge leap in understanding is happening!
You can begin a partnership with a child by picking up the spoon,
making it a joyful game, having fun. The baby not only learns about
physics, but love and trust.
Someone who would say "manipulative by nature" has some big-time
baggage, probably from their own mother resentfully picking up their
happily-dropped spoon. It's a pretty creepy idea, thinking you're just
a baby's puppet.
Robin B.
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
-=-They are manipulative by nature and we need to teach them we are
Train Upon a Child).
Horrible parenting book written like they are the word of God and to Christian
parents.
They say that if you are loving, nice, attached to you child they will become
evil and side with Satan ( OK not these exact words
but pretty much :-)
Ezzo specially says that babies are manipulative since birth.
Pearls tells parents to swat their kids hands if they throw anything on the
floor, specially the high chair
, which is also used as a punishing tool.
Parents are told that it is the godly way to raise kids.
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> not their puppet.-=-I bet that came from the writings of either Ezzo ( BabyWise ) or the Pears ( TO
Train Upon a Child).
Horrible parenting book written like they are the word of God and to Christian
parents.
They say that if you are loving, nice, attached to you child they will become
evil and side with Satan ( OK not these exact words
but pretty much :-)
Ezzo specially says that babies are manipulative since birth.
Pearls tells parents to swat their kids hands if they throw anything on the
floor, specially the high chair
, which is also used as a punishing tool.
Parents are told that it is the godly way to raise kids.
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
k
>>>It's a pretty creepy idea, thinking you're justa baby's puppet.<<<
When I was breastfeeding one thing I recall is the warning that if I
didn't watch it I'd end up as a human pacifier for Karl.
LMAO.
~Katherine
On 10/2/10, Robin Bentley <robin.bentley@...> wrote:
>
>> On facebook, in response to a post about how terrible it is that
>> babies are spanked, someone wrote, of one year olds in high chairs who
>> drop spoons and like it that an adult picks the spoon up:
>>
>> -=-They are manipulative by nature and we need to teach them we are
>> not their puppet.-=-
>>
> Wow. I remember learning why babies do that (at La Leche League, I
> think). They're learning cause and effect. "If I drop this spoon, what
> happens?" A huge leap in understanding is happening!
>
> You can begin a partnership with a child by picking up the spoon,
> making it a joyful game, having fun. The baby not only learns about
> physics, but love and trust.
>
> Someone who would say "manipulative by nature" has some big-time
> baggage, probably from their own mother resentfully picking up their
> happily-dropped spoon. It's a pretty creepy idea, thinking you're just
> a baby's puppet.
>
> Robin B.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
Sandra Dodd
-=-When I was breastfeeding one thing I recall is the warning that if I
didn't watch it I'd end up as a human pacifier for Karl.-=-
Yeah, people used to say that to me about Kirby. I guess by the time
I was nursing Marty and Holly, either people had shut up, I wasn't
listening, or I had weeded out my friends. :-)
If one thinks of a pacifier as a bad thing, or as an impersonal piece
of plastic, that's something to become self-conscious about, maybe,
but if you think of the word itself, "to pacify" a child is a great
thing. To cause him to be at peace, and to remove any cause of
agitation or fear, what could be better than being a human pacifier
for a child who is dependent on the mother for peace?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
didn't watch it I'd end up as a human pacifier for Karl.-=-
Yeah, people used to say that to me about Kirby. I guess by the time
I was nursing Marty and Holly, either people had shut up, I wasn't
listening, or I had weeded out my friends. :-)
If one thinks of a pacifier as a bad thing, or as an impersonal piece
of plastic, that's something to become self-conscious about, maybe,
but if you think of the word itself, "to pacify" a child is a great
thing. To cause him to be at peace, and to remove any cause of
agitation or fear, what could be better than being a human pacifier
for a child who is dependent on the mother for peace?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Deborah Resnick
I always felt more like a Kangaroo than a puppet. Mine were always attached to some part of me...lol. Or perhaps that monkey you see on the nature shows with babies hanging off her. Of course, now they're all grown but the last and I feel more like a ship whose passengers have almost all disembarked. They don't stay young forever, and your time will come back around all too soon.
Deborah
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Deborah
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
k
That's lovely. So it is an unintended.. backhanded compliment. Good.
~Katherine
~Katherine
On 10/3/10, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
> -=-When I was breastfeeding one thing I recall is the warning that if I
> didn't watch it I'd end up as a human pacifier for Karl.-=-
>
> Yeah, people used to say that to me about Kirby. I guess by the time
> I was nursing Marty and Holly, either people had shut up, I wasn't
> listening, or I had weeded out my friends. :-)
>
> If one thinks of a pacifier as a bad thing, or as an impersonal piece
> of plastic, that's something to become self-conscious about, maybe,
> but if you think of the word itself, "to pacify" a child is a great
> thing. To cause him to be at peace, and to remove any cause of
> agitation or fear, what could be better than being a human pacifier
> for a child who is dependent on the mother for peace?
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
Marina DeLuca-Howard
Katherine wrote
explaining that pacifers stand in for mothers who aren't doing their
jobs--another word for them is *dummies* and my child needs no dummy to
replace his mother, as he has a mother willing to meet his needs. The
mother is the primary attachment object, so the comment doesn't make sense.
This is not a chicken and egg scenario because clearly the mother comes
first, and hopefully the *dummy* isn't in the picture.
Left a lot of open mouths;-) Happily they weren't pro fortunetelling because
none of those predictions came true.
Marina
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>I remember looking at people blankly when they uttered that warning and
> -=-When I was breastfeeding one thing I recall is the warning that if I
> didn't watch it I'd end up as a human pacifier for Karl.-=-
>
> Sandra wrote: Yeah, people used to say that to me about Kirby. I guess by
> the time
> I was nursing Marty and Holly, either people had shut up, I wasn't
> listening, or I had weeded out my friends. :-)
>
explaining that pacifers stand in for mothers who aren't doing their
jobs--another word for them is *dummies* and my child needs no dummy to
replace his mother, as he has a mother willing to meet his needs. The
mother is the primary attachment object, so the comment doesn't make sense.
This is not a chicken and egg scenario because clearly the mother comes
first, and hopefully the *dummy* isn't in the picture.
Left a lot of open mouths;-) Happily they weren't pro fortunetelling because
none of those predictions came true.
Marina
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
sheeboo2
------ explaining that pacifers stand in for mothers who aren't doing their
jobs--another word for them is *dummies* --------
While I understand your point of view as it is common in some circles, lots of on-demand breastfed babies still want/need a pacifier. My daughter was one of them. I held off giving her one until she was over 7 months old because I felt as you did, but you should have seen the look of joy on her face the first time I popped one in her mouth! The gift of being able to suck when she wasn't hungry and/or on the move, was a blessing, for us both. Not giving her one sooner is one of my only regrets about those first months of her life.
Even now, at seven, she likes to have something non-food related to suck or chew and she nursed, as often as she wanted to until she self-weaned at 2.5 years.
Brie
jobs--another word for them is *dummies* --------
While I understand your point of view as it is common in some circles, lots of on-demand breastfed babies still want/need a pacifier. My daughter was one of them. I held off giving her one until she was over 7 months old because I felt as you did, but you should have seen the look of joy on her face the first time I popped one in her mouth! The gift of being able to suck when she wasn't hungry and/or on the move, was a blessing, for us both. Not giving her one sooner is one of my only regrets about those first months of her life.
Even now, at seven, she likes to have something non-food related to suck or chew and she nursed, as often as she wanted to until she self-weaned at 2.5 years.
Brie
Sandra Dodd
-=-While I understand your point of view as it is common in some
circles, lots of on-demand breastfed babies still want/need a
pacifier.-=-
That's a different thing, though, than a bottle fed or timed-and-
measured baby who is given a pacifier to shut him up, because he is
NOT fed on demand.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
circles, lots of on-demand breastfed babies still want/need a
pacifier.-=-
That's a different thing, though, than a bottle fed or timed-and-
measured baby who is given a pacifier to shut him up, because he is
NOT fed on demand.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
sheeboo2
-----That's a different thing, though, than a bottle fed or timed-and-
My guess is a lot of readers here are new-ish to these ideas and it would be a shame if they read a post that wasn't specific and felt like they were somehow being bad moms for letting their babies with strong sucking needs have a paci.
B
> measured baby who is given a pacifier to shut him up, because he isYup. That's exactly why I posted my comment. Blanket statements aren't helpful to anyone and the poster wasn't clear. I read it as paci= mom not doing her job.
> NOT fed on demand-------
My guess is a lot of readers here are new-ish to these ideas and it would be a shame if they read a post that wasn't specific and felt like they were somehow being bad moms for letting their babies with strong sucking needs have a paci.
B
Sandra Dodd
-=-Blanket statements aren't helpful to anyone -=-
There's one.
Within the context of this list, we're assuming attachment parenting
and unschooling.
This isn't really an introductory lists, so some blanket statements
are to be expected, and will help MANY people.
-=-My guess is a lot of readers here are new-ish to these ideas and it
would be a shame if they read a post that wasn't specific and felt
like they were somehow being bad moms for letting their babies with
strong sucking needs have a paci.-=-
I would hate for a mom to think a pacifier was as good as nursing,
though, even more.
Go easy when you're feeling defensive, please. Think about why you
are, if you can, and post gently.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
There's one.
Within the context of this list, we're assuming attachment parenting
and unschooling.
This isn't really an introductory lists, so some blanket statements
are to be expected, and will help MANY people.
-=-My guess is a lot of readers here are new-ish to these ideas and it
would be a shame if they read a post that wasn't specific and felt
like they were somehow being bad moms for letting their babies with
strong sucking needs have a paci.-=-
I would hate for a mom to think a pacifier was as good as nursing,
though, even more.
Go easy when you're feeling defensive, please. Think about why you
are, if you can, and post gently.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Marina DeLuca-Howard
To be clearer I wasn't arguing with my babies or denying them anything, I
was arguing with people who were trying to interfere with the communication
happening between me and my babies. They felt I was spoiling the babies and
not taking time for myself. Some would tell me for my own sake, and then
tell me for the baby's sake I needed a 'stand-in'.
It reminds me of the story of why my mother weaned me at six weeks. I was
gaining too quickly, so the doctor told her her milk was *too rich* for her
baby. My husband was weaned at about eight weeks by his mom for *failing to
thrive*. He wasn't gaining well on the scheduled feedings--every four hours
wasn't enough. So one baby was weaned for not gaining well, and the other
for gaining too well. Not many babies nursed in the 1960's because either
they gained weight *too well* or *not well enough*.
I cannot understand mothers who insist on letting babies cry it out.
Crispin my youngest occasionally cried mysteriously, but he was held,
cuddled and offered help. He still needs at almost age eight more cuddling
and more help too calm down than either Rowan or Martin did, but that's
okay. His brothers recognize that some things are harder for him and they
can be quite gentle and patient.
An infant really isn't going to argue back about whether or not I am the
primary attachment object, and he or she needs a stand-in other than his or
her own fist. All my kids eventually started sucking on fingers. At first
I would offer the breast, but the baby's all knew when they wanted their
fingers and not the breast. Generally this happened after six months--they
were exploring rather than looking for mothering or nutrients. Honest, I
never forced a breast on an unwilling infant:)
Marina
was arguing with people who were trying to interfere with the communication
happening between me and my babies. They felt I was spoiling the babies and
not taking time for myself. Some would tell me for my own sake, and then
tell me for the baby's sake I needed a 'stand-in'.
It reminds me of the story of why my mother weaned me at six weeks. I was
gaining too quickly, so the doctor told her her milk was *too rich* for her
baby. My husband was weaned at about eight weeks by his mom for *failing to
thrive*. He wasn't gaining well on the scheduled feedings--every four hours
wasn't enough. So one baby was weaned for not gaining well, and the other
for gaining too well. Not many babies nursed in the 1960's because either
they gained weight *too well* or *not well enough*.
I cannot understand mothers who insist on letting babies cry it out.
Crispin my youngest occasionally cried mysteriously, but he was held,
cuddled and offered help. He still needs at almost age eight more cuddling
and more help too calm down than either Rowan or Martin did, but that's
okay. His brothers recognize that some things are harder for him and they
can be quite gentle and patient.
An infant really isn't going to argue back about whether or not I am the
primary attachment object, and he or she needs a stand-in other than his or
her own fist. All my kids eventually started sucking on fingers. At first
I would offer the breast, but the baby's all knew when they wanted their
fingers and not the breast. Generally this happened after six months--they
were exploring rather than looking for mothering or nutrients. Honest, I
never forced a breast on an unwilling infant:)
Marina
On 3 October 2010 18:31, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
>
> -=-Blanket statements aren't helpful to anyone -=-
>
> There's one.
> Within the context of this list, we're assuming attachment parenting
> and unschooling.
> This isn't really an introductory lists, so some blanket statements
> are to be expected, and will help MANY people.
>
> -=-My guess is a lot of readers here are new-ish to these ideas and it
> would be a shame if they read a post that wasn't specific and felt
> like they were somehow being bad moms for letting their babies with
> strong sucking needs have a paci.-=-
>
> I would hate for a mom to think a pacifier was as good as nursing,
> though, even more.
>
> Go easy when you're feeling defensive, please. Think about why you
> are, if you can, and post gently.
>
> Sandra
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
--
�If you want to build a boat, do not instruct the men to saw wood, stitch
the sails, prepare the tools and organize the work, but make them long for
setting sail and travel to distant lands.� � Antoine De Saint-Exup�ry
Rent our cottage: http://davehoward.ca/cottage/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-It reminds me of the story of why my mother weaned me at six
weeks. I was
gaining too quickly, so the doctor told her her milk was *too rich*
for her
baby. My husband was weaned at about eight weeks by his mom for
*failing to
thrive*. He wasn't gaining well on the scheduled feedings--every four
hours
wasn't enough. So one baby was weaned for not gaining well, and the
other
for gaining too well. Not many babies nursed in the 1960's because
either
they gained weight *too well* or *not well enough*.-=-
My mom weaned me early because her milk was "too rich" (because I was
spitting up).
Then she was told to wean my sister because it was "too thin" (my
sister was scrawny and sickly at first).
Those were in the 1950's.
The parents partnered with the doctors (or were the doctors' puppets)
and the poor kids were left out of the equation entirely.
Sandra
weeks. I was
gaining too quickly, so the doctor told her her milk was *too rich*
for her
baby. My husband was weaned at about eight weeks by his mom for
*failing to
thrive*. He wasn't gaining well on the scheduled feedings--every four
hours
wasn't enough. So one baby was weaned for not gaining well, and the
other
for gaining too well. Not many babies nursed in the 1960's because
either
they gained weight *too well* or *not well enough*.-=-
My mom weaned me early because her milk was "too rich" (because I was
spitting up).
Then she was told to wean my sister because it was "too thin" (my
sister was scrawny and sickly at first).
Those were in the 1950's.
The parents partnered with the doctors (or were the doctors' puppets)
and the poor kids were left out of the equation entirely.
Sandra